Financial Feminist - 21. How to Be the Most Interesting Person in the Room with Danielle Robay

Episode Date: May 31, 2022

Have you ever walked into a room and wondered how to leave the best impression? Dating with no idea how to connect deeper? Wanting to up your networking game? Today’s guest know’s just how to make you the most interesting person in the room. Danielle Robay is a TV host, journalist, and creator of the PRETTYSMART podcast. She’s an expert at asking thoughtful, unique, and downright fun questions and has interviewed industry heavyweights like Taylor Swift, Simon Cowell, Hellen Mirren, and Tom Hanks. In today’s episode, Danielle talks about how she got noticed as a journalist, the “invisible hours” of being a woman in media, and why she thinks pop culture is one of the greatest connectors of our generation. Pre-Order “Financial Feminist: Overcome the Patriarchy’s Bullsh*t to Master Your Money and Build a Life You Love”: https://bit.ly/3PpHvlC Check out the show notes for this episode for more resources: https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/  Follow Danielle on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/daniellerobay/  Listen to PRETTYSMART: https://pod.link/prettysmart  Get the Question Everything Card Deck: https://prettysmartshop.com/collections/shop/products/question-everything-card-deck-1  Our HYSA recommendation [affiliate]: http://sofi.com/herfirst100k   Watch Exclusives from Financial Feminist on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/HerFirst100K/featured  Follow Financial Feminist on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/financialfeministpodcast/  Follow Her First $100K on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/herfirst100k/ Crush your debt with Debt Defeater, Her First $100K’s newest course offering: https://www.herfirst100k.com/debtdefeatercourse   Looking for more actionable money advice? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://treasury.app/herfirst100k/money-journey-quiz  Leave Financial Feminist a voicemail: https://www.speakpipe.com/financialfeminist  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back, financial feminists. Okay, have you ever been in a room with new people or people you really want to impress? Or maybe you're out on a date. Maybe this is a first date. Maybe this is a date with somebody that you've known forever. And you're wondering, how can I ask better questions? How can I get past all of the, like, the weather today was beautiful kind of bullshit, and actually create real connections with people. Today's guest is here to not only assist you in that

vulnerability, but to help you ask better questions so you can not only be the most fascinating person in the room, but also be the most empathetic person in the room. Danielle Robay is a TV host and journalist, creator of the video podcast Pretty Smart, and the best-selling card game Question Everything, 52 cards for deeper conversation. You probably can't see me right now, but I have been living in her merch. We had a great conversation, and literally, I have not taken her sweatshirt off since she gave it to me. I wore it on the plane to get to New York. I've worn it two days in a row.

This is my second day and I've not washed it. And it definitely needs to be washed. You've seen Danielle on IMDb, NBC, E!, Extra, Entertainment Tonight Online, HLN's Dr. Drew, The Steve Harvey Show, and NBC's First Look, and Defy Media, where her daily news segments and interviews received over 100 million views a month online. In 2016, she was named co-host of WCIU's Chicago-based two-hour live morning news program, making her the youngest morning TV host in Chicago's history. With a social media following of over 300,000, she's chatted with everyone from Taylor Swift and Michael B. Jordan, hello,

to Helen Mirren and Tom Hanks. Even Larry King commented on her compelling interview style, quote, Danielle has the ability to make people feel seen. Danielle is one of those women who just like dazzles you with her wit, her intellect, and the way she communicates through thoughtful questions and compelling interviews. We dive into sexism in the entertainment industry, the future of journalism, how she moved to LA and networked with plants. Seriously, if you're looking for like a unique way to get your name out there, this episode's for you. And how she asks better questions to forge deeper relationships. I also always joke that I cry in every episode of Financial Feminist, and I cry in this one, but for a very, very different reason. I have a full-on meltdown, and I don't want to spoil it. I have a full-on involuntary freakout with Danielle, who is a complete stranger to me. with Danielle, who is a complete stranger to me. And oh, it's good. It's a good time.

You're going to want to listen at least for that moment. So without further ado, I think you're going to love meeting Danielle. Let's get going. I'm so excited to have you. Thanks. I'm so excited to talk with you. I want to give you like right off the bat, what has been like your most memorable interview or conversation? Or like give me like a couple. Yeah. And why were they so memorable for you?

The first one that comes to my mind is Simon Cowell because. Is he really mean? No. So I love interviews. He feels really mean. He's not. He's actually the opposite. He's kind, charming, really like you could tell he cared about his staff and everybody in the room and was generous with every interviewer.

He was one of my very first interviews. So I would like send people cookies and bamboo plants to try and get jobs because I didn't know anyone when I moved to LA. Love it. I mean, you got to hustle, right? And people would email me back and be like, hi, Danielle. Nice to meet you. Like we don't have any positions available, but keep in touch.

And I would email them back and say, no problem. If you ever need anyone last minute, I'm available. Smart. So you're top of mind, right? Top of mind. I would email every few months. And then one day I got a call at like 3 p.m. and a digital network said, our host is sick.

Can you get to this place in Hollywood by 5 PM? And I was like, yes. So I go there, it's the X Factor red carpet. And Simon Cowell gave me an exclusive. And in turn, I got my first job. Like they ended up hiring me and I worked for $25 a red carpet. But without him and his sort of generosity and our like having connected with him, I don't know what would have happened. So, okay, walk me through that again. So you get the call, hi, I need you to host a red carpet. Have you hosted a red carpet before that day? Probably like 10 of them. I had been working for free for this like random guy who I don't know. We're going to table that. We'll talk about going to table that. No, but like, Ooh,

okay. Yeah. So yeah, I had done a few. Uh, it's funny cause I grew up in Chicago and I look back at those photos and I had no idea how to do my hair and makeup, no idea what to wear. And I went in, I was the most confident I would go to these red carpets and I was like, I have the best questions. Looking back, like I was standing next to like Juliana Rancic and all these people who had like professional help and like put themselves together and um yeah I think blind naivete is a really beautiful thing I I love that okay so I one of my pet peeves so I'm a pop culture junkie this is gonna be clear as we move through this interview I feel like one of my pet peeves, so I'm a pop culture junkie. This is going to be clear as we move through this interview. I feel like one of my like beefs with interviewers is they ask the same three questions.

It is the most boring thing of all time. And now as someone who is being asked questions by people, it seems like I get asked the like same three to five questions. What do you get asked? Are you like, you're making notes for like no how do i not ask her the tour is about to be on my podcast very subtle no i feel like it's like what is financial feminism tell me about your money story okay and then we were talking about this earlier but very similar like why aren't like why aren't women saving as much money or why aren't women doing this and it's like very yeah it's hard because on one hand,

you sort of have to reintroduce yourself to everyone you speak to. And on the other hand, yeah, I'm with you. I also think there's different ways to ask questions. Tell me more about that. Like if I were to ask you about your story, I think a lot of people set up questions saying, they don't ask specifics, I think is what I'm getting at. So they'll say, tell me your story. And it's like,

that's overwhelming. It's a job interview question and it's the worst question. But it overwhelms your brain. Yeah. You're like, where do you, my, my personal story, my dating history, my, my, my medical chart. Like, what do you chart like what do you want what you want yeah I that's true I but I think it's it overwhelms you you don't know where to start so if you get more specific and say you know Tori where'd you grow up and then like you know what's your favorite thing about your mom that you really love about yourself that she passed on to you and yeah um what what's your first memory with money i love that one you know like i think there are a whole episode about that one yeah there's just specifics

that can give you the same information totally uh that said red carpets are a whole different animal because you're just trying to get sound bites but i don't do them really anymore so so the goal for red carpets is not like obviously it's not like a let's sit down and like have a authentic conversation about your performance in this movie. Right. But it's so it's for soundbites. That's your motivation there. Even if it is tell me about this movie, it's for a soundbite.

Like I worked for IMDb, which is an awesome it's for cinephiles. Like they don't want me to ask about your divorce. Thank God. Right. But they do. I still have to get soundbites about the Batman movie and things that will do well online because that's how the media beast is sort of run. Yeah, I'm that person that sits on IMDb while I'm watching a movie if I'm at home. Oh, you do? Oh, yeah. I'm like trivia.

You're a nerd. Oh, I know. I love it. For favorite movies. I'm a nerd too. I'm like, yeah. I have so many favorite movies like my favorite person in my life will watch them with me for the first time and i'm like you know the scene in oceans 11 where brad pitt is uh eating uh eating a shrimp cocktail he ate that shrimp cocktail for 10 hours like that's my fucking show because it was an all-day shoot oh he must have been so he ate like 20 well the joke is in oceans 11 is that his character rusty is one of my favorite movies. He's always eating. He's always eating. Yeah. Always eating. But it's the Vince Vaughn thing. Vince Vaughn, any movie he's ever in is always eating. Yeah. That's like his comedy is eating. Yeah. Always eating. Okay. So in terms of asking questions, you've said that

asking good questions is a superpower. Yes. How can we as non-journalists take good questions and make them applicable to our own lives? That's such a good question. Okay. I'm going to start with, I'm going to ask you a question before I give you an answer. What do you think the number one complaint is after any first meeting, first interview, first date, first job interview? Complaint, like I'm being interviewed and I'm complaining? Yeah. Or you go on a date. Oh, I didn't get enough questions about myself. Or they did all the talking. They didn't ask me any questions about myself. It's exactly it. Right. So personally and professionally, the Harvard Business Review did a study. The number one complaint is I wish they had asked me more questions.

Interesting. Which for people, a lot of people go into these situations very nervous too. So it's interesting where they're like, you could go in nervous to a date or a job interview and then leave going, but I wanted to talk more or I wanted to explain more. Yeah. That's an interesting dichotomy. I think people just want to feel seen. Oprah has this great anecdote that at the end of every interview, even Obama will turn to her, the cameras turn off and they go to commercial break and every single person says, was that okay? Like, we just want to know that we're okay, seen, heard, validated. And questions to me, like, I actually think questions should be added as a

love language because I think they really make you feel cared for. You're saying to me, like, I actually think questions should be added as a love language because I think they really make you feel cared for. You're saying to me, I would rather be in conversation with you here, present, spending time with you, doing this more than I would rather be doing anything else. That's like, I know I'm like dork. I have chills, but like, that's to me. I literally have goosebumps. Like, I think what's more loving than that? So I do.

I mean, I'll give you a small sort of anecdote of how I discovered the power of questions because I actually didn't always feel this way or know about it. But I got what I thought was my dream job. An entertainment outlet hired me. I was the youngest person they ever hired. I walked in. I was like, yeah, this is why I moved to LA. I was like all ego.

Like this is what all the sacrifice was for. I did it. Hell yeah. I got there. I hated the job. I would break out into hives, cried in the bathroom at lunch. I heard one of my old bosses called it the oh shit job. I hadn't heard that before. I haven't of my old bosses called it the oh shit job. I don't I hadn't

heard that before. I haven't heard that either. But it makes sense. Yeah. Like I think a lot of people have the like, oh shit job. Yeah. Right. Where you thought you wanted something got into it. And you're like, yeah. And you think it's going to be one thing and it turns out not to be. So I ended up quitting and I was living off my credit cards. Don't tell Tori that. What? I'm sorry. I just blacked out for five seconds. Yeah.

But to I think a lot of your points that I've listened to in your interviews, not feeling in control of your money is incredibly anxiety ridden. Yeah. So I was full of anxiety because of that. And I was like, I better make use of this time. So I took myself to grad school. I watched hundreds of hours of Robin Roberts, Larry King, Katie Couric. I wanted to try and be the best. And I looked at this Google doc that I had written. I'd interviewed athletes, celebrities, politicians, thought leaders, entrepreneurs. And I had a list of about 800 questions. And I thought, I've never, I ask questions for a living and I've never asked

myself one. And this was pre-therapy. So I started asking myself about five or six questions a day. And by the end- Are you journaling or are you just thinking about it? Like what is your process for that? I love that you asked that. No one's ever asked me that. Oh. I would do it before I went to bed and I would think about it. Okay. In hindsight, I think journaling is actually probably more efficient.

Well, and it's also for me what I realized about journaling is it's like the reflection in the moment versus the like, you know, one, it's cool because you get to reflect on it later. You get to, you know, in a year be like, oh, I was in that. Yeah. But it's also the act of literally like ignoring that future you's going to read this and instead writing something that present you needs to get out. You know, it's very therapeutic in that way. It is.

I agree with you. I started doing it more recently. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big journaler now because, yeah, it was just very therapeutic. But anyway, you were asking six to seven questions a night. Yes. And by the end, I was more interesting at dinners, more practice at asking questions. I actually felt more confident in myself. But the main thing that changed was, like, to be perfectly honest, strangers were like

magnetic to me. And my relationships that I had that really mattered to me, like my friends and my family, I could tell that they felt closer to me. Because you had done work on yourself. And I started asking them these questions because they were top of mind for me. Yeah. And I was like, this really is a superpower. and I was like, this really is a superpower. Like all sort of jokes and hyperbole aside, it's a magnet for people, and anybody can tap into it.

And so that's why I launched this card deck, Question Everything, because I believe that everyone can tap into the power of questions. It's like incredible. Yeah. I'm sure you know about it the 36 questions that lead to love yes yeah yeah the new york times ones obsessed with those have done them literally have on every date started seeing somebody yeah it's still very early it's casual and nothing's

happening yet but it's like we first date because it's like i'm done with the questions of like siblings this that it's like but like i know for a fact within probably a half hour of meeting somebody if that person's going to be even down to do it or not yeah and like that honestly tells me like everything i need to know of like is this person interested and like let's crack this shit open yeah like let's start getting vulnerable like immediately and, you jump, you like pass the first six dates and you're like on date seven, eight, nine, just because you're like, yeah. And I do these with friends. I've done these with a lot of people I love in my life, regardless of like my romantic connection to them of just like, let's talk about some serious shit. If your house is on fire and you save your,

what is it? Your, your family members and and your pets what one item are you saving you know yeah and they're even fun ones you know like one of the questions in my deck is do plants thrive or die in your care and right they thrive they do yes they did not for a while because um a good friend of mine told me that the number one rule of plant parenting is to leave them the fuck alone and that of plant parenting is to leave them the fuck alone. And that's his quote. You leave them the fuck alone. Because I would over love them. And then it was like, no, leave them be.

They'll tell you when they need water. Because most plants don't die from underwater. They die from over water. That's how I killed my succulents. Succulents need nothing. Leave them. Yeah, I screwed that one. Don't touch them. Nope.

I've killed so many plants before I got them right. Yeah. When I have my apartment, 45 plants in my tiny little one-bedroom apartment. Oh, my one. Nope. I've killed so many plants before I got them right. Yeah. When I have my apartment, 45 plants in my tiny little one bedroom apartment. Oh my God. 45. 45. I have like four fake ones now.

So. No, they're good. I mean, regardless, it's like, it's fun. It's fun for me. And it was like a good transition into learning how to, learning how to take care of something. Yeah. Okay. So you touched on this before. learning how to take care of something yeah okay so you touched on this before talk to me about some of those early years in hollywood the like hustling the trying to break into this like

really notoriously difficult industry yeah and what initially drew you to journalism so i went to college at the university of wisconsin madison and I was a political science major. Cool. And I loved it because I think it taught me how to think, not what to think. Ooh. Which, yeah. That's a beautiful statement. How to think, not what to, no, that's very, that's very poetic. It's very thoughtful. Yep. It's, it's really how I felt. I think, um, it informed a lot of the way I view pop culture now. And, uh, I had done like theater growing up and my mom said to me, really? I'm pop culture now. Yeah. And I had done, like, theater growing up. And my mom said to me, really? I'm a theater major.

I always get along with theater kids and camp people. You know, Kristen's over here, too. Kristen's our podcast producer over here. Just pumping her fist. It's an inc- People, like, do not give theater majors enough credit. Thank you. I'm pulling away from the mic so I can scream thank you.

It's incredible training. Yes. In so many ways mic so I can scream. Thank you. It's incredible training. Yes. Think on your feet. Team player, like good communicator, good storyteller. People are shocked initially when they're like, you're a financial expert and you're a theater. I'm like, yeah. Yep. A hundred percent. Because like life is a little bit of a performance, even if you want to be completely authentic and sincere, you know? Yep. Had a whole conversation with another guest about that last week. Yes. Yeah. So yeah, I'm with you. I took a lot of theater classes in college too. I love it.

But my mom said to me, to her credit, she was like, I wonder if you would like news. It kind of combines your love of like being on camera and also politics and news. Right. And I was like, okay, I'll try it. So I lied because you couldn't get an internship unless you were a junior. And so I made a resume that said I was a junior and applied to a bunch of news stations in Madison and I got an internship. And so I would bus like three times a week to the Fox station and later the NBC station there.

And I fell in love. Like once, the first day, I have never turned back. I loved it. I loved the storytelling. I love, I always tell college kids, like there's something that I wish people told me, which is like, if you don't know what to do or you don't know what you're going to like, think about the people you want to be around. And so like, think about yourself at a dinner with a bunch of influencers. Are those your people? If so,

go try and be an influencer. Do you want to be with a bunch of accountants? Those are your people. Like, what do you want to do when I'm in a newsroom? Oh, those are my people. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. So for you getting started in journalism, much like myself now in the financial industry, I feel like, well, journalism, there's probably more women. But do you feel like there's not women at the top as much? Because I feel that way a little bit about finance. One, there's not very many women at all. And two, very few women make it to the top of like the traditional finance structure and then there's

unfortunately more and more now but very few of us actually like getting the opportunities to talk about money i don't want to misquote the exact percentage i used to know it But we can pull the stat too. Yeah. A significant portion. I want to say it's like 60 or 70% of, uh, GMs like general managers and news directors are men. And so those are the people at the top of the food chain, like the executives. Right. Um, so while there are plenty of female journalists, there's actually not a lot of female executives in TV news or in written journalism. And I do think having worked in all different parts of TV and news that who you have in your newsroom informs the content. That's why it's so important to have diversity of race, gender, ethnicity, thought, IQ, experience, all of it, because you're telling

better and more diverse stories. And so, yeah, there's a big issue there. There's also some sort of gap that happens between journalism school and actually getting a job. I think there are 50-something percent of journalism students are women, but only 40 or 30 i have to get the exact stats like there's a there's a gap 20 fall off or like don't get an opportunity yeah there's a gap between school and being hired yeah and i feel like from my understanding of journalism especially like broadcast journalism yeah and. And we know this from, oh, what was the Margot Robbie movie on the Fox about Fox News? Was it Bombshell? Is that what it was? The one with Tina Fey? No, no, no, no. The one, um, Charlize Theron. Oh yeah. Bombshell.

Bombshell. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. Which, yeah, it felt like, and I would love your thoughts about if you still feel it's this way, that if you are a woman or a female identifying person on camera, you don't just have to be good at your job. You have to be stereotypically attractive. Yes, fully. And that if you are not stereotypically attractive, that might mean less opportunities for you. Yes, 100%. Do you feel like that's still applicable now? I think it's gotten a little bit better because our idea of what is beautiful has expanded somewhat. But yes, that is very much the case. And especially if you have men who are making those decisions. Exactly. There's also

like an element of pressure once you're in it too because right right it doesn't it's not just when you get the job it's it's the continuation to be stereotypically attractive skinny made up all the time yeah yeah i mean i did a morning show in chicago i had to wake up at 2 45 every morning and what time were you in bed? Like seven. It was weird. But my male co-host got to wake up at like 4.45 because I had to do hair and makeup. Right. So yeah, there's like those two hours, like sleep, study, get better at my job, like all those things that, and there's literally no choice. Like I had to wear heels. I had to do it. It was in my contract. And the cost financial and. Oh, yeah. Of all those things. It's huge. Yeah. I just wrote a section in my book talking about all of the things that had to go into the

cover shoot. Yeah. That, you know, men get to show up and maybe they have, you know, suit and tie and maybe they get a haircut. I call it invisible hours. Yep. Yep. It's the financial cost. It's the hours. It's the time. It's the energy. It's all of it. Yeah. No, you're so right. Okay. I want to talk to you about my least favorite question on the red carpet ever. Oh, I can guess. What is it? Something about like, what are you, who are you wearing? Thank you. I've never asked that once. Thank God. It is horrible.

Okay, talk to me. Tell me why that question is bullshit. Well, the question is bullshit for a few reasons. One, it's because like, why would you, regardless of what the question is, why would you want to ask what everybody else is asking? Two, it's historically been gendered. So now at least people are asking the men what they're wearing. What I've learned that made me hate that question

a little less is that the fashion industry really depends on celebrities wearing their clothes. When I did my research around this too, it was, I guess it started in the 90s. Joan Rivers actually was supposedly the first person to ask it. Right. And it was because, especially back then,

nobody knew designers. And if you were going to tailor make an Oscar dress for a celebrity or for an actor or an actress, really, it was like it was their kind of salute or thank you or shout out because the fashion industry or the designer would not have gotten it otherwise. Exactly. Yeah. And so for that, I think fine. But isn't that what Instagram's for? Like tag the designer, shout them out. To me, the red carpet reporters don't need to be asking that. And historically they were only asking women. And so men were being able, like we're talking about their movies and their films and women were talking about their clothes. Yep. Yeah. Well, and it feels there was, I'm trying to remember who did it. There was like a push, like a very public push to stop asking that question.

I think it, if I remember correctly, it started with the Me Too movement and Time's Up. I think so too. I think it was Natalie Portman was one of the people I think with Time's Up. Yeah, I think the Golden Globes, they all wear black. Yeah. And then it was because like, don't ask me what I'm wearing, ask me about Time's Up. Right. Which, cool. But I'm like, how long is that going to last? I'm like, is that sustainable? I think people are changing.

I think young reporters, even though the people in charge are still a bit of, like, a different generation, I think young reporters. And when I speak to Gen Z, they change everything. Like, they're so cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Half, almost half of our team at Her First 100K is, like, under the age of 23, 24.. Like they're so cool. Yeah. Yeah. Half, almost half of our team at her first 100K is like under the age of 23, 24. Really? Yeah. You're so lucky. But I'm,

it's so funny because I was so used to being the youngest person in the room and I'm 27, so I'm still pretty young, but it's been so funny because I'm saying the shit that people used to say about me and I hated it every time it would happen. And now I'm saying this. I feel like so old. I'm like, why am I doing the shit now that I used to hate? Yeah. I used to hate when people would do that to me. There is, Oprah always says for her whole life, she wants to be both a student and a teacher. And I think about that too. Because like with your team, you're probably learning from them and teaching them.

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Learn something new from them all the time. Yeah. teaching them. 100%. 100%. Learn something new from them all the time. Yeah. So you had mentioned already this kind of like, I am going to be the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. And we're alike in that way. I'm like, politely, but I will be the squeaky wheel until you give me some grease. Yeah. At the same time, we hear the word network a lot. And we're like, what the fuck does that mean? So it's very much a buzzword that I don't know how

many people can actually define can you define it for us and what sort of strategies do you either recommend or what sort of stories things that you did that ended up furthering your career I actually love talking about this because I think people the way I hear it spoken about is so unhelpful. Yeah. So to me, sales is not about selling. It's about helping people. And I feel the same with networking. It's not about what you can get. It's about what you can give. Yes. And so when you walk into a meeting or any room, the first thing I think about, no matter who I'm meeting, is I wonder how I can help them.

Yep. And it's coming from a sincere place. Totally. And one, it gives me pleasure and joy and it's like fun to be the first mover. But also that's how you connect with people. That's how you learn more about them. They'll start asking questions. They're going to care about you because they feel cared about. And so if you walk into a meeting and you see somebody has a kid wearing a baseball uniform, oh, is that your son or who is that? Do you love baseball? Like just ask questions. Yeah. Instead of going in thinking like, I have to impress them. I have to tell them about myself. I have to sell this. It's very formal and structured and all that. Yeah. You're never going to win that yeah you're never gonna win that way no and that's what we're taught i was taught that

i was too you know pencil i i always think of like the pencil skirt like not physical although sometimes i did wear pencil skirts but it was like that kind of energy of like button up play by the rules this is yeah like you send a message on linkedin yeah yeah and everybody's human right so i think if you think about how you can help them not to like belabor the point but ask a great question that means something you're gonna form a relationship and make a moment with them versus trying to get something like when i email i had um somebody who over time I think maybe became my mentor it was never like you know official but these things never are yeah they're never like you are now my mentee right that's funny but I'm Catholic school yeah I would email him articles I read that I thought would be

interesting to him about um tv news or about something we had spoken about. And so our relationship became beneficial to both of us instead of just me. Which I literally, my next question was, one of the things I hear from people early in their career or students, they're like, how can I help this person? That's literally something I recommend and something I did of, oh, hey, and the informational interview I asked you for, which we, you know, sat down for a half hour and you were kind enough to ask, you enough to answer some questions I had about your career. I remember, yeah, you talked about your, I don't know, your love of the Pittsburgh Steelers. And hey, did you see that they just traded this part? Like, you know, it's yeah, it's great.

I've had probably a hundred phone calls with young women to young men over the course of my career at this point, maybe more. Who are coming to you to ask questions? Yes. Yeah. One person sent me a thank you. And I don't. Wow. I'm not upset about it because to each their own.

But I think a thank you note. Oh, my God. Because such a long way. Even a thank you email. In 2022, I could long way even a thank you email in 2022 I could not agree more yeah I did an informational interview every single week of my senior year of college and even if yeah it was the middle of finals I was like thank you for taking time I really appreciate it yeah I probably attached my resume and I was like let me know if there's anything I can do or any opportunities you know for me yeah oh man really yeah so I think just little things really go a long way I'm really I'm not surprised that like a good chunk of them didn't but only one

out of a hundred wow I know hmm okay I had to sit with that for a bit I'm like I'm shocked I also grew up in a household where my mom was like you writing a thank you note for anything yeah it's nice you write a thank you note for a thank you note i'm like yeah that's my grandmother my mom was like i don't care you get a ten dollar check you're writing a thank you note like all right that's nice it's good practice yeah yeah oh one person yeah i know write a thank you note guys oh man we talked a bit briefly about this kind of not only the pay inequity in journalism but just the lack of opportunities yeah have you been in workplaces where you knew for a fact that you were paid less? Yes. Great.

I quit my job because of it. Uh-huh. We're setting, we might have known that. Oh, yeah. For a question. But talk to me a bit about that experience. Were you able to advocate for yourself? Like, how did you even discover you were not being paid and compensated fairly?

Because I feel, again, common question for me is it's like I just discovered or I have a I have an inkling that Chad is making more money but he has been here two years less than I have yeah yeah oh talk to me I actually don't know if I handled any of this right I think about it all the time so uh use this story as a teachable moment here it's beautiful even if I don't know if any of this is correct. You get, yeah. Yeah. It's great to talk about. And I appreciate you being vulnerable of like, maybe I didn't do it. Well, I think we all have to talk about it so we can learn from each other's mistakes.

You know? So I was living in LA off my credit cards. And I get this job opportunity in Chicago to host a morning show. And I had fallen in love for the first time. And so I did not want to move because I was like, I'm in love. You were in LA. You got an opportunity in Chicago. You're like, I don't want to leave.

I don't want to leave. I'm in love. Also, it took me years to set my life up in LA. And I had a woman that I really admire call me and say, A, if he's the right guy, he'll be the right guy in two years. He was not the right guy. We always find it out, don't we? We find out.

And B, if you can cover a funeral of a mayor in Chicago, you can cover Michael Jackson's funeral. Go take this job and get the practice that you need. She was right on both accounts. Did it feel like a step back for you? Because you were in Chicago and then moved to LA, right? Or is, yeah, I mean, you were in, you were in Wisconsin. Uh, so I was, but I grew up in Chicago. Okay. Got it. Went to Wisconsin for school, moved to LA, lived in a garage and then ended up moving back to Chicago for this. Got it. Yeah. So did it feel a bit like a step backward?

I don't know. I think I was excited about the opportunity, but it was scary to leave LA. Yeah. Like would I ever come back? And I like took this big risk to move there. Well, LA, I feel like is bigger than the city, right? It's like the promise of what Los Angeles is, right? Yes. That is a great point. Like I went to the gym this morning and met Childish Gambino, a.k.a. Donald Glover. What? And like, that doesn't happen not in L.A.

No, you did not. Do you love him? I love him. Oh, my God. Tori, you're having an actual bad meltdown. Like, this isn't an acting meltdown. I literally. Are you crying? Tori, you're having an actual bad meltdown. Like this isn't an acting meltdown. Are you crying?

Tori! I was listening to him on the way up. Tori. Was he nice? The kindest. I can't believe you're actually crying. Are you this good of an actress or are you for real? No, I'm actually crying.

I got so excited. This is incredible. Now I'm sweating. I'm sorry. We have to pause. Tell me everything. We was at the gym. What gym?

I'll show up tomorrow. What gym? It's a small training gym. So he was about to work out with a trainer. Okay. But he was. Was he at the beard? How long was his hair? He shaved head, the beard okay okay cool so present kind of course

he was questions yeah great beyond lovely spirit like wonderful i mean do you go up to him did you talk to him i mean it was like a 30 second interaction yeah but you were like hello yeah no what did you say what did he say like we talked need to know everything. We talked about Chicago and Atlanta. And I was like, do you feel like. He does have a show called Atlanta. Yes. So I said, do people feel like it's a love letter to the city? And we were just talking about cities and where you drop it.

Oh, because of course you're an interviewer. You're like, let me drop some great interviews. Boom. Yeah. So anyway. I don't even remember what we were i need like a second no please take one how funny because like it could have been anybody and you were wrapping sunrise before i walked in here why do you love him so much it's really interesting because there's still a lot like

i'll be honest with you i've only seen like an episode of Atlanta. Okay. Like, but I got really into community during quarantine and also got really into his music. And like 3005 was my most played song of last year. And it like got me through some shit. Like, I don't even know why. Cause that song's just a bop. And then it's like one of my favorite, one of my favorite,

this is like a whole deep dive one of my favorite things about art or one of my favorite kinds of art is art that is just entertainment yeah but that if you want to strip it back you can so the great gatsby is my favorite book because if you just read great gatsby it's just a great it's an entertaining book yeah where it's like it's got murder and it's got, you know, lust, lust and intrigue and yeah. And people growing up together and like, you know, leaving and then coming back in fashion and all these things, right.

Parties. But then of course you can do the like English class shit of what is this? You know, what is the green light symbolizing? Like what is the, you know, the clock on Gatsby's mantle, like all of that shit.

And I feel like he does a beautiful job of making music that is so like infectious and so fun. And then if you want, you can strip it really back. So like 3005, even that is, the title is supposed to be symbolic

of the infinity symbol. You usually have three and five. And if you were to like close the loops on those, it becomes the infinity symbol. Because he talks about, about you know be right by your side till 3005 and it's just like it's just so smart and that's my favorite kind of like art or entertainment where it's like you can just do surface level and it fucking slaps or you can do more intentional like deep dive stuff and it's still so good. So that's what I. That was awesome.

That's so cool. I'm so glad we brought that up. Me too. I usually never drop those types of things. That was great. That was. I'm still like, OK. It's so good.

That's so fun. Yeah. I don't even remember what we were talking about. What was I talking about? I don't know. Oh, the promise of L.A. Yes. OK. So, yes. L so yes la does have like a a thing yeah so yeah it's more than just like i'm moving to a new city it's like i've made it yeah yeah i moved to chicago i take this morning show job yes and

the person the male co-host that they hired we had tested together so we had each other's cell phone numbers and like we're friendly oh i didn't even think about that would make it it's never occurred to me that you have to test with your co-host yeah i don't know why i didn't think about that it's very like theater yeah exactly yeah you have to test with your co-star yeah because there's like a chemistry test i don't know why i didn't that's so obvious but i don't know why i didn't. That's so obvious, but I don't know why I didn't take. Yeah, because it's like sometimes you're right for the role, but you don't test well with this other person. Totally. Right.

Or they're right, but you don't test well with or whatever. Yep. Oh, interesting. Okay. I didn't even think about that, but that's so obvious. Yeah. So we were chatting during this whole process and he told me what he was getting and I told him what I was getting. And so I went into negotiations knowing that what they offered me was like so much less. And then

when we tried to push for more, it was like, take it or leave it. And I did, I had like a long conversation, not just with myself, but with other people because I thought, okay, so if I think I was making $105,000 and he told me he was making like $170,000. Oh, so it's not. It was a third, if not more. 105 to 170. So it wasn't like five or 10,000. It was. No, no, it was significant. It was a third, if not more. 105 to 170. So it wasn't like 5 or 10,000. It was. No, no, it was significant. Oh my God.

And I think it's important to be pragmatic about these things too. Like I don't think it's fair to not assess other variables. So like for instance, does he have more followers? No. Right. Does he have more years of years of experience no does he have like you know what are you bringing to the table because those do matter does he have a master's degree and i don't exactly and and that matters i don't think it's fair when people don't take

those things into account regardless of gender and it ruins our argument as women to be honest yeah so the only thing he did have was he was a few years older than me, but he had started later in broadcast because he was an athlete at one point. And so we did have commensurate experience in years. Yeah. So I went into it knowing that, but I also said to myself, is that $65,000 going to change my life? It would help a whole hell of a lot. Like it was sort of difficult in Chicago to pay my rent and do all the things I needed to do as crazy as that sounds, but it really was. And be comfortable. So yes, it would have enhanced my life. Was it going to

change my life? No. And I wanted the experience. I wanted to get better. Which it's not your fault, but like fucking that fucking sucks it sucks because it's also i don't want to go on a whole rant about it but it's also not just you losing out on 70k now oh no i mean right the opportunity to make compound interest all of it yeah oh man i'm sorry thank you but it was you, there's no silver lining. It sucked. So I found that out. And then when Kat Sadler quit, I reported on that live. And I remember my eyes welling up. Like I watched the clip back and if you know me well, you can see it. If you don't, you can't really tell. Because I was sitting thinking to myself, I'm the Kat. Like I feel like such a fraud right now

reporting on this. And eventually my contract was up and my boss at the time, I think, offered me like a three or 5% raise. And I didn't even go into it because I realized that they were never going to see my value. And so they were using me and I needed to use them for what I needed. And I had done that. So my time was me and I needed to use them for what I needed. And I had done that. So my time was up and I left. And honestly, the show eventually got canceled. And I don't know what would have happened had I stayed, but we had nice chemistry.

And I don't know. I think it was their loss, honestly. Yeah. I was a really good employee. I like wrote, produced. I worked really hard. Yeah. 100%. I'm sorry that happened unfortunately I think that's all too common it's the story of

so many women and it's getting better because we're talking about it and getting better because we're helping each other right but it's still not quite there well that's why my big thing is like we need to just talk about money more yeah Yeah. And this whole talking about money narrative is just, it's, you know, it's ridiculous. It's perpetuated by the patriarchy to keep us quiet. Don't you think it's interesting that we have,

like we talk about sex way more comfortably. We literally have that on one of our episodes. We'll talk about sex. We'll talk about politics, religion, death, any other uncomfortable topic before we'll talk about money. Yeah.

It's so interesting. It's so taboo literally we'll literally i was about to say be penetrated by somebody but like we'll literally become we'll be naked with somebody a million times before we'll have a conversation with them about money oh yeah crazy crazy yeah it's the number one thing couples fight about too number one reason reason for divorce as well. Yep. Yep. Money. I still can't be, you know, I can't get over that. I'm trying to keep it together. I'm trying to keep it together. What, again, briefly discuss this in terms of what you said, invisible time.

Yeah. But again, briefly discuss this in terms of what you said, invisible time. Yeah. What burdens do you think women experience that men just don't in the way we have to present ourselves in the workplace? Oh, how much time do we have? I've thought about it. My podcast is called Pretty Smart, and it literally stems from this. So I read a book called Beauty Sick, and Dr. Renee Engeln is the author.

She's a professor of psychology at Northwestern. And the book opens and says 54% of women would rather be hit by a truck than considered fat. And when I read that. One more time. 54% of women would rather be hit by a truck than considered fat. Considered fat by whom? Do we know? Society? Men? I'm assuming. Yeah. Considered. Wow. Great follow-up though. So when I read that, my heart sunk because in high school, I would have for sure said hit by a car or I would have been like, how fast is the car going? Or like, is it a truck or a Prius? Have you watched Fleabag? Have you ever seen Fleabag? Yeah. Yeah. It's like the like, what is it a trek or a prius have you watched fleabag have you ever seen yeah yeah it's like

the like what is it where she's like i'd gladly take a year off your life to be what is it 10 pounds and both of them were like yes right and they realize no one else is raising their hands yeah it's that right and it's also extremely fat phobic which i think is very important to highlight yeah but also i think in the time that we were growing up like i didn't even know any of those words. Like fat phobic wasn't even a word when I was in high school. Like Paris Hilton was the thing. And like now we know that all the people that we were looking at in magazines, like for the most part have come out and said they have eating disorders, like issues with drugs, like all those things were not attainable.

And also money with which to invest in. Right. Exactly. And also money with which to invest in chefs and trainers and drivers and all of these things to make them makeup artists, Botox, all of these things. But the book Beauty Sick, if anybody's more interested in this topic, is kind of life changing. But yes, the podcast is based on that because I've also experienced it in my career. It's definitely amplified the amount of hours and time and money and just like focus that I have to spend on clothing and having the perfect shoes. I realized that I didn't like packing for trips. I would get anxiety for trips when most men would be excited to go on vacation. And most women can't pack. They freak out. Like almost all of my friends, my mom,

I had this at one point. I've since fixed it because you have to have the perfect outfit. Like you have to have the right outfit for like the beach and then the right outfit for dinner and the right outfit for this. And it's like with Instagram, that's amplified. Well, and you can't,

because God forbid you repeat an outfit. Right. Which is such bullshit for so many reasons but if you let go of that your life is so much better totally but also society refuses to allow us to let that go right because right it's our currency right yeah because if i show up at work if i were to show up at this interview non-made up i would get comments that would say she looks tired she looks tired she looks unprofessional right so it's like the double standard of like the very thing that we get shamed for as women which is

like you spend too much time on your hair you spend too much time on makeup is like the then thing interesting the thing that then is a double standard i saw a video online the other day an outlet i used to work for did so i follow still, even though I normally wouldn't follow them. They did a, like a three minute video on if Kendall Jenner had gotten lip filler or not, because people online recently thought she did. And I was about like 30 seconds into the video thinking to myself, I've never seen a video similar to this about a man questioning if he had surgery or not the idea of whether she did or not like who the f cares and also the fact that we're talking about it is making whoever's watching this think do i need lip filler but i will say that one thing

i literally talked about this with victoria last week so it's so funny we we're picking on the kardashians a little bit because they're an easy target unfortunately but I do think one of the issues though with celebrity with fame with like being professionally hot yeah is that people who are professionally hot very rarely actually discuss what went into them becoming professionally hot but there's so much misogynism built into that I completely agree agree. Right. However, if I'm a young girl, if I'm me looking at Kendall Jenner going like, oh, my God, she's so beautiful. And I'm thinking that's attainable. It weirdly I agree with you 100 percent on your three points you just made. I also think there is a potential where I'm watching that video and going, oh, so it isn't obtainable.

And that comforts me in a weird way. Yeah, totally. I agree. There should be transparency but we don't have the same obsession with men's appearance we have obsession with their money yeah which is also not fair that's a lot of pressure for them it's not fair like i i really like i think if we're stripping away gender issues for women we should strip them for men too yeah masculinity and and undefining masculinity affects men as much as it affects women.

When you look at money magazines, I actually did this in Chicago. I held up all the like most famous magazines of men on the cover and women. The women were almost all in bikinis or like really skimpy clothes. Sometimes naked. Yeah.

And the men were all in suits looking really dapper with a briefcase. It was about power versus sex. They're crossing their arms. Yeah, totally. I think it shows our value system so blatantly. Yeah, and we're okay with men having money and we applaud men who have money. But when women have the audacity to say yes i would like to be

rich i would like money we shame her do we yeah oh god yeah i feel like we don't like bethany money sarah blakely we're like you go well i believe bethany is bethany a white woman both of them are white women yeah so that's one thing pat mcgrath sure i think what happens though is either women who have money become caricatures real housewives right they become caricatures of you know women who have money or they're catty and they're yelling at each other and they're you know having frivolous beverly hills lunches where they scream you know or what happens which is what i've experienced is this double standard of altruism so oh the idea like you can't negotiate for yourself but you can negotiate for your team yes or i can't want money just because it makes my life better i have to want money for a higher purpose now i want to be clear donating 100 like that's what financial feminism is to me is it's

like get your own shit together so that you can help others. Right. Like get your own financial foundation and bring everybody else along for the ride. Right. I 100% believe that. I think donating especially if you've built some sort of wealth is extremely important and something that I 100% do. That being said we do not have that same expectation for men. That being said, we do not have that same expectation for men.

My TikTok comments every time I talk about money or me building wealth is immediately like, yeah, but what are you donating? Immediately. And I'm not seeing this for men. Yeah, I agree with that point. So it's like you have to be, we like weaponize women's altruism, which is a beautiful trait that I think a lot of we're conditioned to have as women. Right.

But then we weaponize it. So we're like, okay, we're only okay with you having money as long as you do something good with it right or like we're only okay with you being a ceo as long as your company does something that's fascinating do you think that the media women consume is belittled an interesting question or stigmatized what do you think what media are women consuming when i wrote this question when we wrote this question yeah it was more i think you've talked about how like pop culture is kind of a currency right or having the knowledge of that but yet i feel like that is not as impressive right or that, you're almost demeaned if you have. Yeah. Like if you can answer all of the Jeopardy questions about The Bachelor,

but you can't answer all the questions about, you know. That's funny. The capitals of the world, you know. I don't know if I would put those on the same playing field. I know what you're saying. But it's sort of like, we're if we're being stereotypical about what men and women are watching which I think we have to be for a minute I'm putting yeah I mean right it's like video games versus pop culture or sports versus sports is a great one

yeah yes sports versus the bachelor is a great example I think and again we're being very stereotypical we are playing into very stereotypical gender roles for this thought experiment. Totally. Yeah. I love that you're into like sociopolitical stuff. So this is fun for me to do with you. I do think it's belittled in that sense. Like sports is thought of as having more gravitas.

Like it's okay to be really into sports. It's okay to bet on sports. It's okay to cry when into sports it's okay to bet on sports okay to cry right football team loses the only acceptable acceptable i'm putting acceptable in quotes time for men to cry is when your team loses and when your dad dies oh my god two times yeah just watch the the movie rudy and you're good yeah um yeah i tin cup my dad every time will cry every time i agree but at the same time if I'm being fully honest I think the bachelor is so stupid and I don't think sports are stupid so from a

personal perspective my best friend who's my favorite person in the entire world like loves the bachelor but yeah so do a lot of my friends and we fight about it because I'm like you're like playing into all of this stuff that's so bad for women in our society. And they're like, I work 50 hours a week. I'm tired. And I'm like, okay, fine. You're right. Enjoy. But I feel like, you know, I used to, um, I was actually, I forgot I used to do this until just now when I worked at a hardware store, like it was my summer job in between in college. And I would, you know, be sitting, if I didn't have a customer I'd be sitting you know reading the news because that was the only thing you like could do you can be on social media but I'm like

okay I can read the news right and I'd go to like Google News and I'd read the headlines and then I would scroll until I got to like pop culture yeah I didn't read politics I didn't read anything I was like 19 and I was like I just want to know like what movies are being made who's talking to who who's dating who yeah and i feel like that is largely read by women one and two i don't know like the shade room now i think they have a very male audience do you think so yeah okay i mean i might be wrong maybe it's changing do you feel like it is do you feel like it's transitioning because i feel like your knowledge of these things like if i bring out at a cocktail party you know like as more stereotyped I guess like a thoughtful like you know people who are more academic my knowledge of I'm trying to think again like community right or like my knowledge of

I don't know who won the best picture Oscar for the last 20 years is less quote-unquote impressive than the more academic you're right i mean i used to have like a big insecurity about that when i did entertainment news because that's what i mean right it's like you're not maybe it's not a legit a journalist right if you're not doing like the hardcore like you're reporting on wars and you're i don't know But I then did pieces on gun violence and for Planned Parenthood. And I realized like it was harder to put those pieces together. I did have to do more research and learn more. Like there is a difference and that's okay. Like it's okay to be into frivolous stuff and it's okay. Like if we're calling sports and entertainment frivolous. Well, we're putting frivolous in quotes.

Yeah. You know? But yes, like I actually just had a job interview for like a serious network and the guy called me a red carpet girl which like which girl first of all you're not a girl you're a goddamn woman jesus christ i hate it when they do that so but yeah it felt that felt demeaning condescending yeah because red carpets are what like i don't know but it's this like not as would you say that if i was on the sidelines that's on a football at a football stadium which i have been right yeah i don't know so yeah there's definitely pieces of that for sure or even beyond football but yeah are you saying that if i'm in war torn well then he's definitely not saying that right but also that's harder yeah no sure 100 sure you know talking to leo cabrio is slightly easier than totally fearing for your safety every yeah

no that's valid that's valid what do you hope for the future of journalism oh man this question is really uh meaningful to me because I believe in our democracy. I'm like a real patriot. I always have been. The card And I have worked alongside some incredibly talented people. Journalists don't make a lot of money for the most part. And they spend so much time at their job. Like if we broke down how many hours we work versus what we're like, the actual pay is not very high. versus what we're, like the actual pay is not very high. These people not just love what they do, but also do it as a public service in a lot of ways, specifically local journalists. The issue with journalism and fake news is money. It is the system behind news, the system behind media that makes media run.

And so my hope is that somehow we can figure out how to fix how money and media coexist. I don't know how to do it. It is the ad revenue that is the issue. Right. Well, and so much of media is owned by people who have billions of dollars and who are actively swaying elections with those billions of dollars. Yes. And are not just, of course, donating to these campaigns, but are using their media outlets to continue pushing an agenda. There's so many like great examples of this, but I think Trump having been so bombastic during his campaign in 2016, I forgot the exact,

I don't have any exact statistics clearly on this podcast, but the, this stat was like the amount of media coverage he received by being bombastic equated to like hundreds of millions of dollars oh yeah and he just did that like the press because it felt like a reality show because that's what he did for what 15 years was host reality shows and so when he said something crazy yep especially in under the guise of like this is the race for the presidency which is supposed to be at a level of decorum.

Right. Right. And so he would say crazy shit and we would all lose our goddamn minds over it. But the press played into it. Totally. Well, because it got clicks. Because it got clicks and eyeballs.

And so how do we separate those things? I don't know. Well, it's the conversation about how do you separate money and politics. They're so interwoven. That's also the issueven. But that's also the fundamental issue with politics. Like, democracy is actually amazing. It's just how do you take over spending? Right. You know, how do we give regular people a chance to become politicians? Well, and how do you allow regular people and their vote and what they believe to actually have a sway as opposed to, again, these billionaires who can just go in and

dump a bunch of money? But that's where you come in. We got to figure out the money piece. I'm trying. I'm trying, slowly but surely. Yeah. Anything else that I didn't ask you that you want to add? No. Okay. Thanks for being here. I appreciate it. You're such a great interviewer. Thank you. Thank you. That's so kind. Where can people find out more about you? At Danielle Robay, R-O-B-A-Y on everything. And the question everything card deck is on my Instagram and on Shopify. And it's...

I'll have to snag one. I'm excited. I'll send you one. It's the best thing I've ever done. Oh, yay. I love that. Cool. We'll link it.

Thank you for being here. Thanks, Tori. Thank you so much again to Danielle for sitting down with us. Make sure to check out Pretty Smart wherever you get your podcasts. I'm also on the show. We did a little show swap. So feel free to check out my episode as well as her other episodes. And follow Danielle on Instagram at Danielle Robay, R-O-B-A-Y.

And also check out her question card deck. It's called Question Everything, 52 Cards for Deeper Conversation. As always, everything is linked in the show notes. I'm going to do a nice seamless transition here and say if you would like to be the most sophisticated, interesting, well-rounded person in the room, well, one of the ways you can do that is continuing to learn and continuing to know more about the topics you're going to talk about. And that's part of why we build the show notes for you all is we don't want you to just listen for an hour. We want you to be able to dig in deep. We give you so much more research, ways to connect again with our guests, more

information about how to better your money, all of that linked at financialfeministpodcast.com or at least in the description for this episode. So please check that out. Also, Donald Glover, if you listened to this episode, know you did not. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Olivia Koning, Sharice Wade, Alina Hilzer, Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Valerie Oresko, Jack Koning, and Ana Alexandra. Research by Ariel Johnson. Audio engineering by Austin Fields.

Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton. Photography by Sarah Wolf. And theme music by Jonah Jonah Cohen sound a huge thanks to the entire her first hundred K team and community for supporting the show for more information about financial feminist her first hundred K our guests episode show notes and our upcoming book also