Financial Feminist - 215. Singer & Actress JoJo: Overcoming Adversity and Finding Financial Freedom

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

What happens when you lose control over the very thing that defines you—your voice, your art, your career? That’s exactly what JoJo faced after signing her first record deal at just 12 years old. A child prodigy turned global pop sensation, JoJo’s career skyrocketed before she found herself locked in a restrictive contract, unable to release new music and legally fighting for her own voice. But instead of letting the industry silence her, she fought back—re-recording her early albums, going independent, and even taking on Broadway. In this episode, JoJo gets real about the highs and lows of her journey, from navigating the brutal music industry to discovering the power of financial freedom. She shares how reclaiming ownership of her art was one of the most empowering moves of her career, how Broadway changed the way she prepares for performances, and why money has been the key to making decisions from a place of power—not fear. If you’ve ever felt stuck, underestimated, or unsure of how to take control of your future, JoJo’s story is proof that resilience and self-worth can change everything. Thank you to our friends at Spotify, where we recorded this episode live in their NYC studios! JoJo’s Links: Website: https://www.iamjojoofficial.com/ Over the Influence: A Memoir: https://www.iamjojoofficial.com/overtheinfluence Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/215-singer-actress-jojo-overcoming-adversity-and-finding-financial-freedom/ Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Looking for accountability, live coaching, and deeper financial education? Check out our exclusive community, The $100k Club: http://herfirst100k.com/100K-pod Special thanks to our sponsors: Squarespace Go to www.squarespace.com/FFPOD to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase. Rocket Money Stop wasting money on things you don’t use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com/FFPOD. Quince Get cozy in Quince's high-quality wardrobe essentials. Go to Quince.com/FFPOD for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.  Netsuite Download the CFO’s Guide to AI and Machine Learning at NetSuite.com/FFPOD. Indeed Hiring? Indeed is all you need. Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at www.indeed.com/ffpod. Gusto Run your first payroll with Gusto and get three months free at gusto.com/ffpod. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Multi-platinum recording artist and actor JoJo joins the show today. She's talking about her infamous record deal being Taylor's version before Taylor's version, overcoming trauma in her family's history with addiction and more. If you need a pep talk about becoming the most authentic version of you, this is it. Welcome back to the show Financial Feminist. I'm excited to see you. I'm Tori. I fight the patriarchy by making you rich. And we've helped over 5 million women save money, pay off debt, start investing, start businesses, but really change their lives through financial education. And if you're oldie but a goodie, you knew that already.

And if you're new to the show, welcome. I hope you stick around. We have over 200 episodes that can help you be better with money and show up as the best version of you. And if you want a free financial plan, you can go to herfirsthundredk.com slash quiz to get a free personalized money plan wherever you're at in your journey.

Today's episode is a very fun one because I have listened to Jojo and been an admirer of her for a very long time. You remember her from her Leave Get Out song, Too Little Too Late, starring in RV with Robin Williams, or her more recent work. She has done incredible performances as Satine in the Broadway musical Moulin Rouge. She is also touring and collaborating with some of your favorite artists. And we have a really beautiful conversation today about her journey overcoming some family trauma and family stories and just becoming

the most authentic version of herself and what she's trying to put out in the world for all of you too. Joanna Jojo Lavec is a chart topping and multi-platinum recording artist, actress, and New York Times bestselling author. No big deal. This past fall, the first time author released her memoir

Over the Influence via Hatchet Books to critical praise, and she also unveiled a new EP, NGL, which echoes many of the themes covered in her memoir. Both the book and the EP are a testament to her resilience and a celebration of her ability to overcome adversity. She has also appeared in movies such as Aquamarine and RV opposite Robin Williams and reprised her role as Satine in Broadway's Tony award-winning musical Moulin Rouge and is developing an original piece of musical theatre right now.

We get into the contract that changed her life forever and then promptly did not, her relationship with finances and how she's learned to overcome many obstacles in her life to build her own version of financial freedom, behind the scenes on what it's like financially to go from a touring musician to Broadway, and how she's prepped to take on an emotionally and physically demanding role like Satine and what she's working on next.

So without further ado, let's get into this incredible conversation. But first a word from our sponsors. This episode of Financial Feminist is sponsored in part by Squarespace, Quince, Gusto, Rocket Money, Public and NetSuite. Build a beautiful website to get your message out into the world with Squarespace. Squarespace was the first purchase I ever made for my business way back in 2016, and it's still my number one recommendation for business owners or individuals building a website.

Go to squarespace.com slash ffpod to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase. Treat yourself to everyday luxury at an affordable price with Quince. I just bought myself a new winter coat from Quince and not even with a gift card with my own hard-earned money because that's how much I love him. Go to quince.com slash ffpod for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. Did you start a subscription during the holidays to watch that one tv show or movie that you just couldn't find anywhere else and then you just got the bill because you forgot to cancel? Well Rocket Money's got your back. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash ffpod. Take the headache out of payroll with Gusto. Get three months free when you run your first payroll at gusto.com slash ffpod.

Fund your account in minutes at public.com slash ffpod and get up to $10,000 for transferring your old portfolio. Download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com slash ffpod. Behold! My name is Maximus Intertenius and I come to you with big stars in big dramas like Gladiator 2, Dexter, Original Sin, and 1923. Stream Paramount Plus for $6.99 a month. What do you do and why is it so important? Oh, I do different things in entertainment mostly. I'm a singer, actress, author, songwriter, human being and doing.

And why is it important? Because everybody, and what everybody does is important. What I do is no more or less important than what anybody else does. I love it. I couldn't agree more. Is there a song or an album that made you go, oh yeah, I want to do that? I mean, I've been performing since I was like-

A baby? Two years old, so I don't remember one specific thing because I've always been like, I want to do that. I want to say maybe the Bodyguard soundtrack. Yeah, the Whitney Houston. Exactly, yeah.

I mean, that might be the first thing that really affected me, but it's hard to say what was the first thing. Was there a musical that made you go, oh, I want to also do theater at the same time? Or were you doing that really early, too? I was doing that since I was six. Yeah, yeah. Super early.

Yeah, I think I was, my first acting job was when I was like five. And then I was like, oh, this is lovely. This is so fun. Yeah, you get it. Yeah, and it's just like, once you get a little, it's like a drug, once you get a hit of it, you're like, oh, okay.

Yeah, I used to say like the bug bit me. So somebody said that and I'm like, yeah, that is what it's like. You just get infected with this desire, this thing that just kind of propels you, this love. You know, I just really dug it. The first thing I ever did was the Who's Tommy. And then I was like, I love this.

Do you remember your life before the record deal? Yeah. What was that experience? I was a kid. Yeah, a literal kid. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, experience? I was a kid. Yeah, a literal kid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I mean my life was performing and Trying to get to that place so by the time I was 12 and I signed the contract it was

It was like oh, yeah, I've worked my whole life for this dream and now I'm living my dream my whole 12 years of my life Yeah, was that a feeling of like oh, I've made it now. Yeah. Yeah So you get a record deal? You're so I've made it now? Yeah. Yeah. So you get a record deal. You're so young. And then it feels like they kneecap you. And that has to feel so, I don't know. I don't know how it feels.

But tell me a bit about what that was like, both feeling like, oh, my gosh, my career's starting. And then maybe, oh, it's not going the way I planned. And then how does your money and your idea of where you're heading, how does that experience affect that too? Well, when I signed my first contract, I was 12 years old,

so it was ratified by the state of New York. It had a guardian ad litem appointed to it. And my mom did the absolute best she could with the limited information that she had about how to navigate the industry. She was cleaning houses for a living and was a soloist at our Catholic church. She raised me on $10,000 a year. I don't know how she did it. She was a single mother raising a daughter by herself. My dad was in the throes of his own addiction. My mom was in, you know, dealing with her own struggles.

And so when I had a lot of success really early on, my first single going number one at 13, that was like, you know, for me it was like, wow, my dreams are coming true. It was great. I loved to work and I always felt like maybe this gift that I was given would be a way to a different life.

Yes. Because people were always telling me that, you're going to be rich and famous. And I'm like, cool, because I think, I'm pretty sure we're poor. That might be nice. Yeah, it sounds like great if I can do something to help my family. I want to, and I love this, and people tell me I'm good at it.

So that sounds like a great combination of things. And then, you know, I had great success with the first album, great success with the second album. Then things started to fall apart as far as the, on the back end for my label, the things that they were going through affected me because I was signed to them contractually so you can't get out of whatever they're going through. And I've spoken about this like extensively over the past 15 years, I don't want to go into it too much.

And not everybody has followed my career or knows anything about that. But like my fans really, really helped to keep me going through that time. I was like telling them a little bit about it on MySpace because that's where we were at the time as far as social media. Well, and you were probably all involved legally too. So it's like, how much can I say? How much can I say?

I was being told not to say anything, but then I'm like. But then somebody else is controlling your story. And I didn't even care at that point. I just wanted out. When I ended up, you know, suing just to get out of that, I didn't even sue for damages. It wasn't anything. It was just that I didn't legally own my voice and they weren't putting out new material

on me or they kept losing distribution. It was just a shit show for a minute. Yeah. And at a certain point I was like, oh this is the definition of insanity. Like I keep trying to make things work, it's just not working. So I need to remove myself from this situation, as sad as that is, because the people I was involved with were like family to me. So I never wanted to be like that. I think most of the people listening didn't have the experience of getting a record deal, right?

And then it not working out. But I think every single woman has an experience of being in a situation that she cannot get out of. And then that feeling of, gosh, I wish I had more money or more power or more influence. So is that the experience of just like, wow, I'm stuck and I thought I'd have enough money to be able to get myself out of this. That's the thing I think that, especially because my mom and I came into this

with no leverage and I was gonna put that in quotes, but like that's actually true. Because when you're signing to a production company or a major label or in my case, both, like there were three different things. It was like, it was a production company, a major label or in my case both. Yep. Like there were three different things. It was like it was a production company, then the smaller label, then the major label distribution. Yeah.

And so there's all these checks and balances and different hoops to jump through and people to- And they know a lot and you know very little. We knew nothing. All I knew was that we loved music and it was a very pure thing, but they knew a lot and they had all the money. They opened the budgets, they closed the budgets.

This is not bad. I'm not saying, how dare they do that? What I'm saying is, it's about ownership. Because they had the money, then it warrants them saying, that's why you no longer own your voice you have this voice we want it and that's what's so interesting and

Because we had no leverage no financial leverage no success in the marketplace No, me being on a Disney show or a Nickelodeon show and being able to leverage the success of that or an acting career or something like that, we weren't able to be like, that profit share doesn't sound right or owning her voice so we need to get your approval to do anything doesn't, we didn't know. And I think about that a lot with, even when I was able to leave a relationship that just didn't feel good for me. And I had, I mean, I owned a place, but I, because I thought it was the right thing, I moved into his place that he didn't own because I was like, I want to show him that I trust and he's the man and blah, blah, blah.

And as soon as that shit went to flames, I'm like, I'm out, I'm, you know, I'm out. I had already rented the place that I, that I owned and I was like, I'm going to find a rental to just get. And it was the financial freedom that I had that allowed me to leave, and not most, but some women have children, and they're working multiple jobs, and they still wouldn't be able to do that. I think about just the freedom that being okay financially has afforded me.

And even to be an independent artist now I'm rambling but it's no you know I think about that a lot that's the entire mission of our work exactly because when you have money you have options and when you don't have money you don't have any options and that's how I started out in the game I am so grateful for the people that believed in me that did invest in me yeah I gave me the opportunity that put my first two albums together and everything and and then I just continued to learn from them and what to do and what not to do. Did you feel like a commodity?

I mean, I was a commodity. That's what it is. It's art and commerce. And did I feel like it? I mean, I don't know. And I don't know if I cared. Okay. I'm just more thinking of like, let me ask this in a different way, and you can answer it or you can tell me no, but did you feel like you were being taken advantage of or was this just the way it worked? I didn't really feel like I was being taken advantage of. It was a mutual thing where I wanted their guidance

and their, the access, and I wanted their money. The platform, hopefully. The platform. Yeah. There's a system and there's different departments at the label that were all working in beautiful harmony together. That's what makes an artist successful. That's what launched my career is a great publicity department, marketing, radio, A&R, other departments that I'm forgetting, and digital.

And it's all those things coming together that make for a success, whether it's a one single or an album or a long career. It takes that. And so, I don't know, I was kind of like, it is what it is, it's cool. My last question about this part of your life is that you were like Taylor's version before Taylor,

which is you went back and you recorded all of your original albums. First of all, how did that feel? And how necessary did that feel in order for you to do what you wanted to do, but also like reown that incredible work you had done? So the reason for that was because the label that I was signed to didn't do a deal

with the streaming services. So Spotify, other DSPs, they didn't have my first two albums on them, they didn't have any of the artists that were on that label's album, so including Aaliyah, who can't advocate for herself because she's not here anymore. Yeah. And I was angry and I felt like once again, like a victim of circumstances that I didn't,

wasn't in control of. And I was tired of it. And I was tired of my fans being like, why can't I listen to your first two albums? Like, are you ashamed or like, you know, you took them off. I'm like, I didn't take them off. I don't own them. I can't do anything with them. I remember trying to find them.

And I think it was like, you had to go to eBay. Or like, you had to go to eBay to find them. YouTube, eBay, they weren't available to stream. So, and it was like that for a couple of years. So my manager at the time came up with this great idea about you could cover your songs. We could recreate them with your friends who are great producers and musicians. You could make them as close to the

original version as you want. And there was no precedent for this. I didn't have an example to look to to be like, oh yeah, this is how you do it. I was very scared. And I was like, this could be so whack. And people could be like, oh, are you obsessed with your old shit? Like I don't, I'm not. But it was just like, you're not going to, you're not going to extinguish this career that I've built. Also, they're banger songs. Like they're bangers back then, they're bangers now.

It was, it was like, we're missing out on being able to make money from it. And for other, for the creators that created these songs, the producers, the writers, it was just so maddening. So I creatively, like we found a solution and a loophole. And that was probably the first thing I did that really felt empowering. And like, okay, there are creative solutions.

And that was the first thing that I released on my own label, Clover Music. And I actually presented it to my major label distributor at the time, I had done a deal shortly before that. And they weren't interested in profit sharing that. And I'm so glad that they weren't because it is a consistent, great thing in my life that quarterly I see a check for exactly so I'm I'm so grateful and it actually taught me a lot about I

don't need to offer all projects to to any you know to a label partner or whatever like it was it was really educational just in that I'm like oh yeah I don't want it that's actually better yeah I thought it was like doing the right thing but yeah so it taught me a lesson. Do you know Queen Herbie, Amy? Yeah, I love her. Okay, so she's a friend of mine. She came on the show as well.

So brilliant. She's so good. So one of the things we talked about is going independent from a label and the access that gives you, but also all of the things that you then have to do yourself. So she was talking like, if I want a single to chart right now, I got to blow myself up on TikTok or Instagram or whatever, because there's no marketing behind me. So what have you found? You mentioned, okay, this is a huge pro, I get a check, no one has to take a cut of it. What are the pros of being in that space of being independent and what are the cons of that?

I'm so grateful that I have a 20 year career under my belt because I just want to start off by saying that because it must be really hard to break as an artist today because there's so, I thought it was 10,000 songs per day. It's a hundred thousand songs per day that are uploaded on digital streaming platforms. So there is more music and noise to cut through than ever. And competition.

Exactly. There are so many pros to being independent, especially when you have a fan base that you've nurtured and that has grown with you. And who trust you. And that continue to join a part of the community. And yeah, that that trust is there and that that recognition is there. Yeah. You know, even nostalgia, whatever. So there's that.

And then when you have some leverage and when you have some financial cushion from other things that you've done, from acting or, you know, partnerships or, you know, sponsorship, whatever it is. A book. A book, right. partnerships or you know sponsorship whatever it is a book a book right and So I would say that the freedom the flexibility is great and also like the Accountability that you have to have like you need to do all in you need to be balls to the wall Mm-hmm as an independent artist and you really should be as an artist at a label too because I think that'll keep them Excited and great things moving forward. So I think that a lot more is on you creatively, but I think that's good.

I think it's good for us to need to be lit from within and kind of lead that charge, because at least for me, starting out so young with different departments at a label, I deferred to other people to know what's best for me as opposed to being like self-guided. Yes. And of course, as opposed to being like self-guided. Yes. And of course, outsourcing to people where like, oh, you're great at choreography. Can we work together? Or you're really good at digital stuff or you take beautiful photos or whatever.

But I think it's just nice to... There's pros and cons with everything. I don't really, you know, as far as... No, but there's so many instances I have in my own life too. Exact same thing where it's like, okay, they're professionals at this, so they should know. And the entire time my gut's going, no, that's not how we should do it though. And then I handed control to them

because they should know how to do it, and I'm putting that in quotes, and then they screwed me over. And I'm like, oh, I knew the whole time. And it's not that, and they're probably well-meaning people. Most definitely. But they don't know me and my audience as well as I do. And it's not that I and I'm sure they're probably well-meaning people most definitely But they don't know me my audience as well as I do or what's gonna be right for you what you want to what you can live with yep, and I

Understand now that I'm older like I think about the reputation that some Divas got like I think of Madonna or Mariah or whatever, and people were like, you know, people have said, oh, they're bitches or they're this or that. Difficult to work with. Difficult to work with. They know what they want. And after many, many years of being like, no, it's okay, or blah, blah, blah, blah,

blah, then all of a sudden you might get a reputation of like, she's difficult to work with. But I'm starting to embrace that it's okay if I do develop a reputation of like being... You have standards, you have boundaries. I really own that. It's, yeah. Yeah. So thank God for getting older because you just care less. Well, it's also those are the traits that we celebrate in men. They're decisive. They know what they want. They're leaders, right?

Yes. Yeah. That's the double standard. It is. They know what they want. They're leaders, right? Yeah. That's the double standard. It is. When you're a business owner, it requires you to try to predict the future, but that's really hard to do.

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It's just included in the price. And they also integrate with your favorite tools like QuickBooks, Google and more. Try Gusto out for three months free at gusto.com slash FF pod. That's gusto.com slash FF pod. So you wrote a book, New York Times bestseller, No Big Deal. Well, you too.

Me too. So come on. Me too. It's about the vibes. It's very exciting. You go into everything from your origins in music to your life at home. And you grew up with parents who both identify as addicts. Can you share with me a little bit more about your story with that and your struggle with

mental health too, and how that's impacted the kind of work you do today and want to continue to do. Yes. Yeah. So the book is called Over the Influence, which sounds like it's about sobriety, but in a sense, I mean, not in a sense. What it is is that I was, my developing brain was very much influenced by being a part of a system, an industry from a really young age, and also growing up with the foundation of going to AA meetings with mostly my mom,

and seeing people share their deepest, darkest, most difficult experiences and trying to climb their way up and pivot and make a new way for themselves at any age. And that is what has inspired my journey and I think my desire to be transparent and connect with people in a different way outside of music through this book. I got my mom's blessing to talk about her struggles because my story is her story, is our story. She managed me from six years old to 17. And there was a lot of ups and downs. She was really struggling with her mental health for a long time. And I took that on as my responsibility, her happiness, I felt like,

whether I consciously felt it or not, I definitely took it on as like, she's not a- That's my job. That's my job to, yeah. And then my dad passed away from his addiction almost 10 years ago. I'm sorry, yeah. Thank you.

And so I feel as though me, not just surviving, but thriving is also to honor my dad and addicts who didn't get the chance to live fully or pivot or, you know, he was just 60 years old and I'm about to get my period. I'm particularly emotional. No, you're making me cry a little bit. We're okay. And, yeah, I was very judgmental of my parents because I'm like, like, why do you still call yourselves addicts? Like, they'd go through years where they weren't using or weren't drinking or whatever.

And I'm like, you're not anymore or whatever. But it's because it's a spirit of Dr. Gabor Matei describes the hungry ghost, and I'm like, you're not anymore or whatever. But it's because it's a spirit of, Dr. Gabor Matei describes the hungry ghost, which I think is a Buddhist idea, where it's like this hungry ghost inside of us that just like Pac-Man, just these big, huge mouths and, or little tiny mouths and big bellies, I forget. And they're just gobbling up and they're never full.

And that is what this spirit of addiction or of unhappiness and depression can feel like. So at a certain point in my 20s, I'm like, I'm no better than them. I judged them harshly, but I'm acting like an addict in different ways. For me, I didn't discriminate. It could be substances, it could be relationships, it could be relationships,

adulation, stimulation, sex, food. I've experimented with numbing out through all of them. So that's what this book kind of speaks to is my journey through that. And it's not like, oh, well, you know, I'm on the other side of it now, but it's just like, this is my experience so far. Does it feel like you're breaking generational curses

and you being able to move through this? I do want to believe that. And that's why I really wanted to do your podcast as well, because there's such a mindset of... Sometimes when I hear people speak like this, it's like a little... But there is a thing as a poverty mindset. No, I agree with that.

And that has been something that's been a part of a lot of my, for some of my family, it's been, you know, not believing that they can have nice things or that they can... Or that they deserve that money. They deserve, yeah. Yeah, or that money is evil. Mm-hmm. And that people with it...

We talk about that a lot on this show. People with it are evil and... Yeah. Money is, has no moral value. It's what that people with it... We talk about that a lot on this show. People with it are evil and... Money has no moral value. It's what you do with it. Whew. And I really embodied that and really like, maybe said that, no, I didn't think that,

but like deep down I really did because it was really ingrained in me. Well, it's easy when you don't grow up with a lot to view anybody with money as the reason that you're not doing well. That's so easy. Yes. Looking externally. And look, there are systems that are stacked against. Absolutely. And there is socioeconomic craziness.

And there are so many, so many issues that... And there's shitty rich people. And there are lots of shitty rich people. So it's very easy to look and go, oh my gosh. Okay, I don't want that because money makes you a bad person. When you have money, that's when you turn evil. And it's like, no, money is a stack of government-issued paper.

So I want to believe that there's different things that I'm not going to instill in, if I have children, that I will not bring, that it ends with me. Colleen Hoover, it ends with us, whatever. You know, shit, yeah. Yeah, when you talk about going through the different versions of numbing for you, what was the financial impact of that?

That's a great question. I feel as though I was like asleep for a long time inside myself, hence the numbing, overdoing things, drinking to excess, eating to excess, being in a little love cocoon where you just get high and be in bed all day and stuff. I went through different periods, particularly in my 20s where I was just so deeply depressed because I was in a lawsuit. It looked like I was just so deeply depressed because I was in a lawsuit. It looked like there was no end in sight. There was no light at the end

of the tunnel. So I have a lot of compassion and I discovered that through writing this book that I was like, oh, I wish me today could sit with younger me and just be like, it gets better. But I think the financial result of that was probably harming some opportunities that I had to make money, to make good connections. I think it probably hindered my acting career. I think that I could have taken that more, like I wish I had the emotional and spiritual energy to apply myself when

I could have like, you know, done more at that time. I now realize that I just couldn't. I was in survival mode. I was not okay. My dad was overdosing and my mom was up and down and I, you know, I was not okay. And because I felt the weight of those things and I didn't feel supported in my career and I just didn't know what to do. But there was definitely like things that happened as a result of that. And I'm just grateful that now I believe that it's not too late to wake up.

Yeah. And to say, that's fine. And not be embarrassed by the windows that you couldn't see, that maybe you could open. That now I'd be like, oh, that's a window, or someone's giving me an outstretched hand. Like, I'll take the hand. Right.

Yeah. That sounds great. I'll check that out. That sounds great. Yeah. I had so much, like my life, it felt so hard. Everything felt so hard. Well, and then probably the pride of,

I gotta do this myself. Yes. Yeah. I'm just trying, I'm like really actively growing out of that. Like not, it doesn't, and I live in a, like New York is a hard place to live. Yeah.

Like, but just meaning like, I don't know, the subway is crazy and people are out here. They're gonna scream at you. They're gonna scream at you. All the time. Yeah, so I just, yeah. It's a different season though. Yeah, most definitely.

You shared in this article, quote, I spent so much of my 20s and teens in utter confusion and in so much pain. There was so much turmoil and feelings of being alone. I remember always feeling so other. And I realized that I felt that way from a very young age. And you shared that theater was one of the ways you were able to feel less alone. Do you still feel that now?

I do feel that way. Yeah. I think that, I mean, you said you did theater. So I majored in theater in college. Wow. Did, was in at least two, three shows a year my entire life growing up. Oh my God. Yeah. And then started singing when I was two. Wow. Did, was in at least two, three shows a year my entire life growing up. Oh my God. Yeah.

And then started singing when I was two. Wow. Played piano. Yeah. This was my, this was the plan for my life. Wow. And then I had well-meaning parents, one of whom is kind enough to be here, which thank you for allowing dad into the studio.

Oh my God, of course. But we had this conversation that was just like very much like, okay, so are you going to go try to do this? And I had friends who were living in New York and who are auditioning. And I was just like, I don't know if I have that in me. The like, rejection fine, but the constant like worrying about how I was going to pay rent, wondering if I was going to get a job, what job was that going to look like? And I just, I don't know if I had that in me. I hear that. And I don't know if I would have to get a job. What job was that going to look like? And I just, I don't know if I had that in me. I hear that.

And I don't know if I would have had that in me. Yeah. When I got the opportunity to be on Broadway for the first time a couple of years ago. Yeah. This is Moulin Rouge. Yeah, playing Satine in Moulin Rouge. I felt a sense of guilt or like imposter syndrome

because of what you just described. Because of a lot of people that worked their way up. Broadway especially is just like, you're auditioning sometimes for eight years. So I didn't have that same process, but then I had to be like, I have been literally working my whole life. Like maybe-

This was not stunt casting everybody. Maybe I don't need to feel as if, you know, people are looking at me sideways or whatever. And maybe some people were, but that's really none of my business. It is what it is. Because I came in deeply prepared, deeply respectful and reverent of the opportunity.

And I went through the script and I made notes on everything and I came in with a perspective and I was like, this is what I have to offer and I would love to work with you and see what we can do together. So it's not like I was just like, this is what I have to offer, and I would love to work with you and see what we can do together. So it's not like I was just like, do-do-do, I'm just gonna show up and sing the way, you know, and like, I don't know.

But to answer your original question, No, you're fine. I think that the community of, particularly here on Broadway, cause I haven't performed on the West End, and like I haven't done a musical theater touring production or something, but on Broadway, there is such a community vibe. In my experience, because people are working so hard and it is so stressful on the body, mind, spirit, like eight shows a week that this the teen track has seven shows and

So I was able to take one show off, but that's five days a week or six days a week Yeah, and I was doing two shows on Wednesday two shows on Saturday and we're all in it together What I loved was I loved showing up at the same place every day. I hadn't had that experience because my job has been being Jojo and getting to travel the world and being, I had, until the pandemic, I had never really been planted in a place for months, actually, since I was like 13. And I was like, oh, being planted is really cool.

It's really nice. And I love, I love showing up and getting to see the same people. I loved the people that worked behind the scenes and the people that were at the ticket office and will call and the ushers. And I loved the people that sold the merch and I loved the swings and the alternates. And it was so fun.

And I loved people coming into my room and being a safe space and people were safe spaces for me. And I asked, you know, I'm thinking of like Bahia, who's been a part of the production for a long time and she's a phenomenal dancer, performer, and she's been doing it for so long and she would teach us, you know, like wellness tidbits. I'm like, how do you look the way you do?

How do you, how are you? How do you keep the energy? How do you keep the energy? So people are just sharing tips and tricks and not being gatekeep-y and I just really love it. And that's what prompted me to move to New York. Just how much, how I fell in love with it through that experience.

I miss theater so much. That's the thing I want to tell people who are like, sports teaches teamwork. And I'm like, 100% yes. You know what teaches teamwork? Being in a production. Someone drops a line, that's your responsibility to pick it up.

That is such a good point. Someone doesn't make their cue, that's your responsibility to figure out how you all are getting off stage. Like, oh my gosh. Someone's sick, okay, understudy. Guess what? Swing, here we go.

And like, we all want to make the other look good because it's good for the entirety. You're so right about that. And I didn't grow up doing sports or, you know, I did theater as a kid, but then very quickly I went down a different path. And I think had I not had success so early on, I might've moved to New York and taken more of a theater

like focus, because I always loved it from a young age. Well, it's so interesting too, you're exactly right, where it's like you had a solo career. Not backing band, sure, but you had a solo career. And this is probably the first time, maybe being in a cast, like in a movie, is maybe similar, but this is the first time you... It is a collective experience.

It is not really about your own performance, it's about everybody's performance. That was really healing, knowing that the show would go on without me, that I'm not financially responsible for whatever happens. Like, if, you know, I can get sick and someone amazing is going to go on as the team. Her costume is ready. I don't have to sing through laryngitis. I don't have to. I might.

Yeah. But I don't have to. I think that was like very healing for me because it's just so scary. You don't want to develop, I mean, you don't want to develop a bad reputation in general, whether it's in theater or as a solo performer, but I was just, I never took tour support

from a label either, so I always put up the finances for any tour that I've done over the years, except for maybe my first album. But then from there, just learned that you don't want a profit share because recouping and all that stuff and percentages on top. Sure. I think that's interesting for someone who is not in that life and you're about to go back on tour again,

which, shameless plug, go see her, I won't go see you. We start February 22nd in Nashville and end May 10th in Miami. So come see me. I love it. So why would you do it yourself versus a label back tour? So when I was in the major label system, I chose not to take tour support from the label because there would, they would like charge interest to that. They'd find you money upfront, just like a publishing company or record label would,

an advance or something, and you'd use that. I hope I'm speaking about this correctly. You are. So then, yeah, it's just like, if you are confident that people will show up and that people want to wear your merch and all that, then you can just kind of go out on a limb, and if you have some money set aside for that, you can stand to walk home with more if you're not giving it back, plus more, to someone else. Right.

And that's just a privilege, I guess, of having a little bit, because I've toured in the past for a long time, just being able to be like, you know what? I'm going to gamble on myself. I'm going to bet that this is going to go okay. I dated a touring musician for a bit and he worked with a musician, I'll tell you offline, who had signed with a label and they went on their first big splashy tour. And then

the label halfway through the tour was kind of like, hey, so this isn't working out. And they were staying in the nice hotels and everything. And then it was kind of like, hey, so this isn't working out. And they were staying in the nice hotels and everything. And then it was kind of like, she got dropped from her label, but her label paid her out, which is like... What? I know. Apparently not very normal.

But it was just like, don't even worry about it. And he was like, but everything changed. Where it was like, yeah, Ritz-Carlton, nice hotels, everything. And then it was like, nope, we're not doing that anymore. Yeah, that's interesting. And you definitely learned, I will say that, like, when you are seeing itemized breakdown of what you're spending and what you could be spending or... And you're like, oh my God. The crew, the band, the pyrotechnics,

if you're doing that, it's crazy. Then you start to think about what is really meaningful? What's really important? Right. What will, yes, how do I grow this show and how do I make people, you know, how do we have a good time? Yeah.

How do we make this impactful? But how do I not be in the red? And I'm not staying at the Ritz-Carlton when I'm on tour, because I'm putting up like 12 people. And so some artists, especially with bigger tours and stuff, they'll stay at one place and their band will stay at another place. And that is totally understandable, especially when you're traveling with like tons of people and you have multiple buses. But yeah, you

just learn, I've just learned a lot over the years about what is impactful, I think. Yeah. And what's worth the money, literally. What's worth the money. But I will say that I think about someone like Victoria Monet, who really invested so much into her artistry, her live show, her visuals. And I imagine used some of the money that she had made from being a very successful songwriter and been able to sew into her solo career.

And I just think that's a great example of it really being worth it to you know do great visuals and do put on amazing top-notch performances and and all that and it's really expensive. Rehearsal is really expensive. Renting spaces, having the right audio, having the right people to take out on the road. Paying for all those people to show up at rehearsal multiple times. Yes, yes. Whether you're having them on retainer or you're... incentivizing them with the right, you know, check to show up. Yeah, it's...

It's stuff that you don't really think about until you're in it. Well, it's almost like for me hiring a team, right? Because you have to figure out, okay, if I hire more junior members, well, they're cheaper, right? But I have to do more work. Versus if I hire somebody who's going to show up and they're incredible, right? It's like the backing vocalist that's incredible. She's going to cost a lot as she should.

Yes. And so it's like, you have to make that trade off, just like you're building any sort of business. When do I have the time and when am I willing to invest in somebody versus when is it like, OK, I just need somebody who can come in, who is just seasoned, and I'll pay, I guess I'll figure out how to pay what they cost. Right. Yeah.

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at netsuite.com slash ffpod. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash ffpod, netsuite.com slash ffpod. Yeah. Okay, Satine. Yeah. Vocally, physically, so demanding. I did not see you in the role. I did see the original Broadway cast right before the pandemic. Because Moon is just one of my favorite movies of all time. Oh my God. So I flew myself out and I bought, I didn't rush it. I bought a ticket and I just cried the whole time. But so demanding.

I remember you posting a video of you prepping and just like, I'm watching all of these Broadway performers. It is, you are athletes and anybody who says differently is just so wrong. So what is the difference between prepping for Broadway versus prepping for a tour? Like physically, emotionally, all of that? I will say that preparing for Broadway changed my life and I'll probably never go back to being the way I was before.

Really? Tell me more. Well, I really wanted to work on my vocal placement and finding more ease and more openness. I needed to. My life depended on it, actually. finding more ease and more openness. I needed to. My life depended on it, actually. My career depended on it. And I just needed to be honest with myself. So I've been working for a couple years with different vocal coaches because I didn't grow up with training.

I didn't know what I was doing. I was just kind of throwing myself against the wall, vocally, and damaging myself. And over the past few years, been working with different people and really trying to just, yeah, find more ease. So, like, using different vowels, and working on placement, and not working as hard, not pushing, finding more opening and working on my mix more,

all these different things, and really having a practice of warming up or opening and working on my mix more. All these different things. And really having a practice of warming up and cooling down before the shows. Since I was 15, probably I've been training in the gym and doing different things. But I also was like, I want this to feel easy. That's what I learned when I was younger.

Like you train hard, so then what you do is easy. That's what I learned when I was younger. Like you train hard so then what you do is easy. Whether it's on like on tour, theater, whatever. So I really applied that to getting ready for Broadway. And while I was in the show, I would like work out a few days a week because I just wanted it to feel like easy. I didn't want to be winded, all that stuff. So as I'm preparing for tour right now, I think I'm taking it up even a notch because as I get older too, I just don't want to go backwards.

I want to see what my, I want to see what I'm capable of. I don't want to die with my potential still in me. So I want to see like, I want to see what I got. So yeah, that's what I'm... I'm vocally getting in the swing of things and physically getting there and wanting to dance more and just explore and have fun. Well, you can't be present as an actor

unless you've done all that work. Because you cannot be there with your scene partner, you cannot be there with the cast, you cannot interact with the audience, even if there is no breaking of the wall. Like you can't do that unless everything feels easy. That's what I learned. I hadn't played a role like Satine ever.

And this is a grown ass woman who's a sex worker who has peeled her way out of poverty and being pimped out by her father on the streets at 13 years old and you know she had a lot going on and she also was just divine and magnetic and... And was also singing Katy Perry songs. And is singing Katy Perry songs. So it's wild but what you said is so true. I, as Joanna, would not have felt okay

to be going toe-to-toe with Derek Klena or Aaron Tveit or anybody else a part of that cast if I had not, if I didn't know the script in and out and I didn't know everything that was going on and I wasn't over-prepared. That's what I... And you didn't know your body could handle it. Yeah, totally.

That's what I learned is that I needed to, I need to over-prepare to be comfortable for something. And I didn't accept that body could handle it. Yeah. That's what I learned is that I needed to, I need to over prepare to be comfortable for something. And I didn't accept that about myself for a long time because I'm like, I should just be able to improv and wing it. Not in theater, but just like in general. Like if I'm getting... If I'm really talented, then it should just be. If I'm really talented, right.

Because I have friends who are jazz musicians who, improv is the name of the game. And they're like, they know the great American songbook, but that's the thing. They are prepared because they know it in and out. No, you can improvise correctly. You know it in and out. It's the same thing like, you know, a sketch performer, an improv performer, right? People think, oh you're just naturally funny. It's like, no, you go to class. You go to class to understand how to play off somebody and how to yes and and all of the complex things. Yes. Yeah, I mean, I know every audition I ever showed up for

that I was like legitimately nervous is because I didn't know my material. Right. Every single one. It was like I learned that monologue three days ago. Like that's every single time. And I was always a little nervous because you're never going to remove that. But at least I knew, okay, I'm not going to forget. So that's one less thing I have to worry about. Yeah.

So I can worry about being present. I don't have to worry about am I going to forget three So that's one less thing I have to worry about. Yeah. So I can worry about being present. I don't have to worry about, am I going to forget three lines in what the next line is? So real. Yeah, and I think back to, yeah, when I felt the most nervous. And it's because I'm like, if I'm honest with myself. I haven't sunk through this enough.

I haven't, yeah. Yeah. I can't sink into it because I'm not confident. Yep. Is there a show that you're like, I must do that before I die? I can't think of one off the top of my head. I'm going off script, I'm just curious.

No, no, no, that's okay. Because I have certain roles where I'm like, oh, maybe. I am really, really excited to originate a role. And yeah, so that's- I know we can't talk about it, but I'm really excited for you. Ah, I really hope, you know, I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch, but I'm very excited. Yeah

Financially talk to me about a Broadway paycheck versus other things like is it nice to have the steady paycheck Is it nice to know yeah, I've never had a steady paycheck. Yeah, I mean really your point You're like I'm getting paid even if I'm sick No, yeah to a degree to a degree don't get paid when you don't show up. And I'm like, that's cool. You learn. Not that I needed to learn that. I'm like, I always want to show up. But yes, having the steady thing.

My business manager, who I've worked with for a long time, he was happy about it. Sure he was. He was like, yay, I get more money too. He's like, Joe, this is good. Well, just like he likes to see that this is consistently, this is cool, as opposed to just be like, here's this random gig and this or this tour, or this thing, this movie, this book, whatever. And I appreciated that I hadn't had that kind of the comfort of that stability,

even for for me, who was starring in a Broadway musical and, you know, was coming in with a name and everything, I think people might think that I was making more than I was. You still really need to love this. You still really need to love it because it's not like you're running to the bank and laughing all the way to the bank or something like that.

Yeah, Anthony Ramos gave an interview recently where different story, he was not the name he was yet, but talking about the first run of Hamilton, both at the public and then going to Broadway, he's just like, yeah, you're doing this because you love it, not because you want to make money. He was not making, and the whole cast was not making a lot of money, and I think that's every show. It is so much hard work, and one of my good friends, Jasmine Cephas Jones, was in Hamilton as well, on OBC and original Broadway cast.

I'm like, what is that? It sounds like O-B-G-Y-N, but original Broadway cast. Also drama for both of us to mention, both of those two in the same sentence. Well, that's why I wanted to bring up my girl. No, you should. Bring her up instead. Yeah, it's just really, really fascinating to talk, you know, to be friends with somebody who, you know, developed something from the ground up and to see it still take... And then there's all these different productions of the thing that you originated.

Well, and they were the first ones, as far as I know, to actually get a cut, which is incredible. Yeah, from what I understand, Leslie Odom Jr., I think, kind of brought people together to ask for... Like, we were a part of the development of this, we should make some... Yep, yep. Have you seen him in concert, by the way? Mm-mm. I highly recommend it, I've seen him three times.

Yeah, I hear he's amazing. His whole band, too. His band is a jazz band. And then he performed the past couple of times I've seen him with the symphony, so it's the symphony in the back. And then the jazz band, it's just the musicians are just insane. And then his vocals are just buttery. Yeah, he is so dope. I think one of my favorite, like for me,

I so appreciate vocalists that don't over sing things. Yeah, me too. It's just like, no, he just, there's some, yeah, exactly. There's some riffs, there's some fun stuff, but he's just singing it straight and it's right in the pocket and it's so good. Yeah, I really love that. I just thought you meant Lynn and I was like,

are you talking about Lynn? What surprised you the most about working on Broadway or working in theater? There are many things I think, but maybe the camaraderie probably surprised me the most because I was scared going into it, like as an outsider. But I was just so nicely embraced and held and supported and supported

and shown the ropes and that was cool. And then also how easy it is to get sick. Cause my immune system was rocking. I was actually like really strong and good. But then I was like one person would get sick and then another person would get sick and then I'd get sick. And then like, you're making out on stage

and then it's like, oh no, that person was sick. Or they have someone at home who's sick. And then it was just like a Petri dish. Well, I think Aaron was the first one to get COVID in March, too. I remember, like, that was the whole controversy. And that controversy wasn't his fault. But I think he was the first one to be like, I think I have this thing that everybody's freaking out about.

Yeah. It's just really hard in a shared space like that when everybody's breathing on each other and sweating on each other and having to kiss on stage or something. Yeah. It's just kind in a shared space like that when everybody's breathing on each other and sweating on each other and having to kiss on stage or something. It's just kind of unavoidable. Yep. Yeah. And you're all sharing a backstage area and everything too. Yeah.

Do you feel like Satine parallels your life at all? I think that her being a performer from such a young age and having a public persona and a private persona just parallels most performers, probably. So maybe in that sense, but the way that I try to live my life now is like more integrated and more of a, I live an artistic life. Like I live a creative life

and I try to like have more ease with that. And I like to like ramp up certain parts of my personality for different, you know, if I'm on stage, I might embody different things, but I don't want to be so fragmented. And I think that we do that, we compartmentalize out of trauma and protection a lot of times. And it's fine for a lot of people.

I just don't really want to right now. So Satine had to survive, she was in survival mode. And then she was dying from consumption, tuberculosis. And so she- She just wants to be a star. She just wanted to be a star and she didn't think that love was available to her. There were things that I related to with that, like loving someone but thinking that it wasn't

savvy to be with them because they can't take care of you and you don't come from money and you're like, it's probably smarter for me to... It's a financial decision. That's not an emotional one. She was making a financial decision to be with the Duke. I sometimes wish that I dated more financially savvy in the past, you know what I mean? Because I was just like, I really just led with my heart so much. But there were things where she hurt somebody. There were things I related to.

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and it's so good. Thank you. You have this line, I had to break it and rearrange it, and then turn into a beautiful mosaic. That seems like your life. Is it, is that it? I think it's a lot of us. At any point we can say,

I really don't like the way I'm framing my life. I really don't like the story. I don't like this narrative. I don't like the way I'm looking at myself or looking at the world. And I had been so numb to my feelings for so long, which is why I was overdoing things for so long and needing to numb out and all that.

And I just didn't allow myself to break because I was like, strong people don't break. If anything, I'm strong. If anything, I'm a fucking survivor and I'm just gonna, you know, push through. Yeah, I'm gonna make it work. And I just really needed to just be broken for a while. And then I was inspired by looking at these, this artwork,

the style of artwork called Kintsugi, where it's like broken ceramic being put back together with like gold or silver, platinum, and it looks so cool and I'm like we're all human kintsugi really, especially the older you get, like the more experiences you're gonna have and the more things that you're gonna need to transform from and use as fuel or I just realized that there are different paths that you can choose. Like you can choose to feel like you're a victim of things that have happened to you, or you can be like, these have been opportunities to propel me and to make me into a person

that is interesting and gritty and trustworthy and seasoned and experienced. And like, I like that. I think that's cool. So, yeah, like, looking at myself as this thing, and just humans as these things that are, you know, fleshy mosaics of like, you know, just all the different things that have made us uniquely who we are. And I don't think any woman I admire,

and I imagine for you too, is it's like, I admire her because she's perfect. No, not at all. No one thinks that. But yet we think we have to be that way. You're so right. My favorite examples of, I don't know, I love these documentaries that are coming out or these long form interviews that we get to see because as I'm cooking or on the train

or walking or doing anything, I like to listen to stuff. And like, I love interviews with Cher or Dolly Parton or I watched the Martha Stewart documentary. And that was so cool because I'm like, I always knew she was dope, but then I'm like, oh, and she might not be, we might not even, I don't know if we'd be friends, I don't know, but like, oh my God, you are so cool.

And like, you completely own who you are. She knows she's rough around the edges. She knows she can be difficult, a little mean. And like, I love to see that. I just think it was so cool. And she, her brand was being perfect, but then she had to start everything from the ground up again.

And then say, I'm not perfect, I still like to look a certain way. She still likes her cashmere sweaters and she likes... I want my fresh flowers in my house. She wants her fresh flowers and she wants all the things, but... And her fresh blowouts, but she... I don't know, it's just so cool to see people at different ages and stages, owning who they are. And I just love it.

And I recently got to work with Cyndi Lauper and she is in her early seventies. And to get to be in close proximity to someone like her is, I don't think she knows how meaningful it is to me because, you know, people have been like talking, asking me about longevity. When I have 20 years in the game, she has mad decades more in the game,

you know what I mean? And that's longevity and that's pivoting and that's grit and that's grace. And I just want to be around, you know, women like that. When I think about women in our community who like listen to the show, I think so many of them, you know, are obviously trying to get better with money, but really they're just trying to be the best, baddest, foolish version of themselves and understanding that like money is a tool to get there. So how has money been able to make you the best, baddest, fullest

version of yourself? Wow. I think that it provides freedom to be able to take chances sometimes. Take risks, yeah. Yeah, and to bet on yourself, also to be generous. And that's a really great feeling, and being able to help, because I've been helped,

and I will probably continue to need help. But I think that it's really badass to give back and to be not so tight-handed. And I've learned that over the years, that my favorite people are, you know, see that it's like with an open hand and money comes and goes, but I didn't grow up with that mindset that money comes and goes. You know what I mean? And I think that's more of something that maybe wealthy people are taught to not fear it. And how has it made me a badass person?

Yeah, I think that it just takes some... When you know that your basic needs are covered, you can move through the world with less fear. You show up differently. You show up differently. There's a confidence that you have when you know also that you've done it for yourself. And no one lives in a vacuum. Like I'm not, I did this myself,

but I have a lot of people along the way who've helped me and guided me and taken a percentage from me and because they're helped me and guided me and, you know, taken a percentage from me, you know, because they're helping me and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no one can take that away from me. It makes me show up to relationships differently. And I'm really, really grateful for that.

That's the thing I realized is I don't ever have to stay in a situation that doesn't respect me. And that money allows me to exercise that self-respect. Absolutely, that is such a great way of putting it. Because it's like, okay, I'm on a bad date. Okay, I can just throw down my card and I never have to see this person again. And there's no conversation about it. No.

Okay, I'm in a relationship for a long time. Sounds like, yeah, I can leave this apartment because I don't need to do this. I have my own money. I respect myself enough to leave and I have the option. And I have the tools to do this. I have my own money. I respect myself enough to leave and I have the option. And I have the tools to do that. Right. Because I can say, you know what, I don't want to be here and I know I deserve more.

But if you don't have money. Exactly. Yeah, you can have all this self-respect in the world, but you sometimes can't physically. Right. And then it gets like gaslighty where you're just like, you're forced to be in a situation that you don't want to be in. The job relationships, unsafe apartment, bad record deal. It's so crazy.

And that's the feeling I want for every single woman on this planet. The ability to just go, you know what? That's not serving me anymore and I don't have to sit and take it. Yes. I love your mission so much and I believe in it so much. And I just think that what you're putting out into the universe is so important for women to hear because I think many of us also don't even know where to start. And I was taught also that, like, ambition is like a dirty quality

to have as a woman and that you should be grateful for what you have. And I think that that's something that, you know, we can actively work to question. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's one of the reasons I just absolutely love your work is I feel I feel your energy of that. I can tell you've been through some shit. And I can tell also that you're at the place where you're like, you know, I'm doing things that feel really good for me. And I think women have to see that modeled to understand that they can do it for themselves too. Yeah, and I needed to see it in other people too.

And they were mirrors for me. And I hope it would bring me a lot of joy if I could be a mirror for someone else, that they can be inspired to go on their own journey because it's not going to look like mine and mine won't look like theirs, but that they will know that it's worth them finding out what it is that lights them up and mine won't look like theirs, but that they will know that it's worth them finding

out what it is that lights them up and that hopefully they can make money while doing as well. Yeah. So if we're going back in time to, I don't know, pick an age, young JoJo, what are we saying to her? It gets better if you let it. Yeah. And I'm probably going to need to return to that many different times, because I do believe that.

There will be really hard times to come. It is a really hard, dark time for us as a collective. And I can only imagine what the next stretch of time is going to be like. So collectively and personally, we're all going to go through ups and downs. And I do believe that it's about finding and allowing for the little moments of joy when they come and really savoring them and being like, oh, wow, this feels so good right now.

And knowing that dark times won't last forever. Even when you feel alone, you're not alone. Yeah. Those are the things I would say. Okay, I have to ask you this my last question. I'm obsessed with riffs. I used to sit in my college dorm room and try to break them down and do it.

What's your favorite riff either that you have done and recorded or one that you're like, oh, I wish I had done that one. Man probably anything by Jasmine Sullivan is one of my favorites. She has this really beautiful one I don't know what it's from I think this is one that me and Stevie Mackey went through and like we were sitting in a car together I think we put it online, it's like... Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee I just think it's such a creative like let me try it again because I don't know if that's That is so wild to me. I would not think to come up with that. So Jasmine, you're the greatest. And you just partnered, you just collabed with Tori Kelly as well, who's my other just,

oh my gosh. And it was just like riff, riff, riff, riff, and I'm like my jaws on the floor. It was so good. Oh, well, that's how I feel when I'm with her. That I just like, I just love her so much as a person and I love her so much as a singer, as an artist. And we just had a really great time. And I think it was, we've talked about it.

It's healing for us to be together because coming up and being around the same age in the music industry Like it was like we weren't supposed to you know, and now we're like we love each other sisters gotta work together It's cool. Yeah. Yeah, I was joking in the car over the mama knows best riff. Do you know the one? Uh-uh. Oh, I'm not gonna do it cuz I'm gonna butcher it. What's that the rag doll one? Do you know this? Hold on. I'm literally and play it for you because it's insane. Mama knows best. Jessie J. Okay.

Who is a goddess. Who is absolutely underrated. Hold on, I'm going to find it. I'm going to play it for you because you'll love it. It's just good. So sick. I mean, everything she does is so clean. It's just nasty.

I mean, everything she does is so clean. It's just nasty. I mean, everything she does is so clean. It's just nasty. I mean, everything she does is so clean. It's just nasty. I mean, everything she does is so clean. It's just nasty.

I mean, everything she does is so clean. It's just nasty. I mean, everything she does is ragdoll It's just good. So sick. I mean, everything she does is so clean and so dope. But Jasmine is the queen. She did the one that I always, I just wait for Christmas time because she did it with Pentatonix. She did the like Joyful Joyful, the Sister Act 2. Oh, nice. And her whole intro is just the most interesting choices. That's what it is. I love those interesting choices. It's so good.

Thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Plug away my friend, tour, book, anything. Yeah. My book, Over the Influence, is out now. You can listen on the audiobook. You can purchase it. And I, yeah, I'd love to hear what you think of it once you check it out. And I'm going on tour, the Too Much To Say Tour, February 22nd through April 10th. So come see me. We're hitting like 30 cities. And it's just going to be the best tour I've ever done. So we

don't want to miss it. It's going to be great. Yay. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, my new EP, NGL is out now. Yeah. Yeah. Stream it. It's really good. It is really good. Thank you to JoJo for joining us. You can see her on tour, her Too Much To Say tour.

You can go to imjojofficial.com slash TMTS tour. You can also get her New York Times bestselling book Over The Influence wherever you get your books. Thank you as always for being here, Financial Feminist. We appreciate your support of the show and we would love if you would mind sharing this episode with someone that you would think also would love it. It's a really good conversation starter for all of the things that a lot of us are going through, especially someone in their 20s or 30s about

reclaiming your identity and being the most authentic version of you. So thanks for being here. Thanks for listening and we'll see you back here very soon. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100k podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristin Fields and Tamesha Grant. Research by Sarah Shortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Medcalf. Marketing and operations by Karina Patel and Amanda LeFeu. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K. Kaylyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmakiyeva, Taylor Cho, Sasha Bonar, Ray Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Claire Karonen, Darrell Ann Ingman, and Megan Walker. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound.

A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you're confused about your personal finances and you're wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com slash quiz for a free personalized money plan.