Financial Feminist - 234. Financial Scarcity, Debt, and Shame: How to Start Fresh with Natalia Brown (National Debt Relief)

Episode Date: May 22, 2025

I know firsthand how heavy financial scarcity can feel—especially when you’re dealing with debt. It’s not just numbers on a screen; it’s fear, shame, and anxiety that can leave you frozen in place. In this episode, I’m joined by Natalia Brown, Chief Compliance and Consumer Affairs Officer at National Debt Relief, who not only brings professional expertise, but powerful lived experience growing up in Harlem and navigating financial hardship herself. We talk about the real, raw emotional toll of debt—from the societal stigma to the psychological patterns that keep us stuck. Natalia breaks down predatory lending, payday loan traps, and how to know if debt consolidation or settlement is right for you. We also dive into something so many of us feel but rarely name: financial dysmorphia. This episode is full of judgment-free, actionable advice on how to reclaim your financial power and begin again—with clarity, compassion, and a solid plan. Natalia’s links: For more information on a variety of debt topics, feel free to visit National Debt Relief’s Resource page for more information on individual debt situations: https://www.nationaldebtrelief.com/resources/ Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/234-financial-scarcity-debt-and-shame-how-to-start-fresh-with-natalia-brown-national-debt-relief/ Looking for accountability, live coaching, and deeper financial education? Check out our exclusive community! Join the $100K Club: https://herfirst100k.com/100k-pod Our favorite travel and cash-back credit cards, plus other financial resources: https://herfirst100k.com/tools Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Special thanks to our sponsors: Squarespace Go to www.squarespace.com/FFPOD to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase. Rocket Money Stop wasting money on things you don’t use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com/FFPOD. Quince For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince. Go to Quince.com/FFPOD for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Netsuite If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, download the free e-book Navigating Global Trade: 3 Insights for Leaders at NetSuite.com/FFPOD. Masterclass Get an additional 15% off any annual membership at Masterclass.com/FFPOD. Indeed Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com/FFPOD. ZocDoc Visit Zocdoc.com/FFPOD to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. ResortPass Visit Resortpass.com and use code FFPOD to get $20 off your first ResortPass experience. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Financial scarcity is so pervasive in our society, and it's even worse if you have debt. When we have scarcity, we can end up frozen in fear. You may have all of the tools you actually need, but too much anxiety to use them. We're joined today by Natalia Brown, a Certified Debt Specialist and Chief Compliance and Consumer Affairs Officer for National Debt Relief. I like to say our goal is to get you out of debt so you can rebuild your financial future. She is passionate about helping people with the financial literacy and education needed to achieve financial freedom and peace of mind by getting and staying out of debt. And I think that's what people fear. They fear that they're going to be judged.

They fear that people are going to snicker or talk behind their backs. And I think that's why a lot of people don't talk about it. Today, Natalia shares her story of growing up in Harlem as the granddaughter of immigrants and learning how to tackle her own financial scarcity. So if the goal is getting out of debt, credit is not, in my opinion, the most important thing, right? You're not going to buy a home if you're carrying $50,000 in balances.

You got to take care of the debt first. We dive into topics like financial dysmorphia, debt, including understanding loan terms, good versus bad debt, the biggest myths and red flags about debt consolidation, and how we can help the next generation learn better money habits. There's always a way to borrow money, but there's not enough conversation about is that the right amount of money? Should you be borrowing that money?

Do you have the means to pay it back? This episode is packed with so much good information and a lot of hope. So if you're feeling like you're drowning in debt, this one is for you. But first, a word from our sponsors. I want to highlight some of our incredible podcast sponsors and the deals before we get into the rest of the episode, because we like saving you money on this show. This episode of Financial Feminist is sponsored in part by Squarespace, Rocket Money, Gusto, Quince, Indeed, Masterclass, Zoc.net Suite, and ResortPass. Build a beautiful website to get your message out into the world with Squarespace. Go to

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ResortPass.com, code FFPod. Resortpass.com, code SFPOD. [♪ Music playing. [♪ Music playing. Can you tell me why your work is so important and what you do? Oh, why my work is so important? That is a great question. It's important to me personally because I get the opportunity to make an impact on people's lives directly. Working at National Debt Relief allows me to, one, discuss things like this with you, to get the word out that debt is not a four-letter word. As many people may feel shame around it.

And it allows me to actually change people's lives in a positive way to get them on the path to financial freedom. And it's just been so fulfilling to be able to tell my kids at home that I do something good every day. As a chief clients operations officer a couple of years ago, I was in charge of all the client facing teams. So making sure that there was quality behind the conversations we had with all of our clients.

And right now I'm the chief compliance officer for National Dark Relief, making sure that we are one, following all laws and making sure that all of our customers are protected under the consumer affairs part of my position as well. So it's important to not just help people, but to make sure you're helping people in the right way and making sure that we are super transparent. We are looking at our best practices and we want to be one of the most trusted companies in our space. Yeah. So we typically like to ask folks what their first money memory is. Like,

what is the first time you remember thinking about money? It was in kindergarten and that's when penny stores still existed. I'm kind of aging myself. I may not look it, but I didn't have the pennies to go to the penny store. So if you didn't have like at least like a dime, I think it was like a five cent minimum or something like that. I remember looking through cushions and coats so that I could go to the store, which was right across the street from my school. So the crossing guard kind of let us go before the bell rang, before we had to line up. And I would run to the store where you get peanut chews and things like that. And I just remember always like just scavenging for coins that my mom would miss. So that's like my first money memory of just the

association of scarcity because we just didn't have a lot when I was growing up. I knew not to ask. So it was if I could find it, I can make something out of it. You had to be a little scrappy. Yes, very much so. You talk about how you grew up as, quote, someone from a neighborhood and a family that should not have been successful and I was regularly counted out growing up. Can you share more about your background and how being counted out motivated you to find your own success? Sure. So I grew up in Harlem in the 80s. And I don't know if your listeners know what that means, but it was not a very nice neighborhood. It's wonderful now. We have a Whole Foods and Starbucks

and we've come a very long way. But growing up, it wasn't like that. There was a heavy drug use in my area. There were people who were dropping out of school and middle school, and they all looked like me. So I very regularly by teachers, by people who should be encouraging you to do more, would kind of discount the entire class, myself included. I had a couple of people who believed that I could be more. So that's what really kind of changed my trajectory. I could have been, I could have gone either way down either path. It was a matter of survival for a very long time. And education became kind of the focus and my mom put me in every afterschool program that possibly was, and it was available. So I did everything from tap to dance to

art, whatever it was, she had me in it just to keep me out of the streets. So that's being counted out can be devastating in a way, especially as a kid, but just having one or two people believe in you can make all the difference. So that's my story and my background and why I ended up on a path that I ended up on. Well, and I know your grandma immigrated here from Trinidad. So how did growing up in an immigrant family affect the way you viewed money? So my grandmother didn't have a lot of education. She actually did not finish high school. So she came to America simply with the idea

that her grandchildren, not even her immediate children would be in a better place, but she figured by the time she had grandchildren, we would be in a better position as a family. So her thing was to stuff money under in envelopes and under beds. She didn't know anything about America really, or the financial systems that we have here. My mom kind of read rich dad, poor dad, I believe.

And that was her first introduction to, you know, saving and, and generational wealth and things like that. And even then she didn't understand all those concepts either. My mom finished high school, she went back to college way later in her life. For me, what I learned from my mom is pay yourself first. That was something that stuck with me was you can pay bills, you can pay rent, but we always forget about ourselves. Treat yourself as if you are an asset.

I always, no matter how much money I made, even my first job, I think it was like $9.25, I made sure that I saved 50 cents for every dollar that I made. And it was tough because I was used to living on scarcity. So it was easy for me to do that. I know that's not easy for everyone. And she also taught me anytime you get a raise, you ignore half of that raise and save the rest. So I've been doing that basically my entire life. And then I learned on my own some investments and things like that. Yeah. So your expertise is really about debt. Can we talk about, first off, what kind of

trends you're seeing? Why are people going into debt, especially right now? What kind of debt is it? Like, tell me about the lay of the debt landscape. It is a desert out there as far as income goes. It's just cost of living plus what the average income is, it's just becoming more and more disparate. So with that comes struggles to pay medical debt, struggles to live everyday life, struggles to find a decent place to live with reasonable cost. I see a lot of new things like buy now, pay later. That's kind of like the old school layaway, but it's very different because now it's credit based.

And I did see an article where that's going to start being reported on credit reports. So that's also something that people should be looking out for is the debt landscape. There's always a way to borrow money, but there's not enough conversation about is that the right amount of money? Should you be borrowing that money? Do you have the means to pay it back? Those are the conversations that I wish we were having more of, not just so much of the consumer mindset of, oh yeah, I can put my door dash on a buy now, pay later plan now. That's not a good idea. I understand being desperate and needing food to feed your family and things like that.

So there are going to be people that are going to rely on it because they don't really have any other choice. And that's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing a lot of people making decisions because they have to make decisions right now in the moment that are going to have an impact down the road, but they have to make that choice if they're going to survive. Yeah, well, let's talk about that a little bit more because it's something we speak about

a lot and that I educate people about a lot is that the debt systems that exist, some are there to increase your opportunities in life. We think about going to college with student loans. We think about buying a house and getting a mortgage. And then there's other kinds of debt that are predatory at worst, but kind of gray area at best. The whole thing that's happening right now is like, yeah, you can split your door dash order into payments. So when we're taking on debt, like how much do we need to consider the terms and the kind of the logistics of that debt, if that makes sense? Because I think a lot of times we look at like, oh, it's 0%. And so we're fine. But it's not always 0%.

Oh, I have a story about that. I got caught in one of those. Oh, talk to me. When I was in college, I actually I was so excited about this too. It was a 0% no APR for 18 months, whatever it is. I did not read those terms to your point. And I was like, I can afford this new living room set. It's gonna be my first brand new living room set in Levitz doesn't exist anymore, but that's where I went. And I got my first furniture set. I'm so proud of myself. And I was like, I can pay this off in 18 months, right? Like I feel like an adult. I did not pay it off in the 18th month. And I think

it was like the 19th, the 20th month. I wasn't too far off. But what I didn't understand was all of the interest for those 18 months would be tacked on if I didn't make it by the 18th month. I didn't realize that my thought process was, oh, I'm only going to get interest on what's left of the balance, not the entire balance. So that actually put me in debt for the first time ever. It took me a while,

I had to go to mom and kind of ask her for help, and then I had to pay her back. And I didn't understand debt at that time at all. So it is really important to look at those terms to understand how the interest is going to be charged, to understand what the payment terms are. And then realistically, are you going to be able to afford it? Because one or two months late can have a devastating impact, right?

When all that interest is added, especially on zero percent interest until whenever. And then also looking at those payment plans. Sometimes if you miss a payment, then the price goes up or there's more interest. So it's really important to know what you're getting into. Just like anything else, I like to say, I look at reviews way more for like shoes and for clothes. I want to see if it's good, but you should do that with financial products too. So if you're going to take out debt, look at the reviews.

They exist, right? You can look at the lenders and see if they're favorable to people who may need a little bit of help. Do they have assistance programs? That's as important to look at as well. I know from research from my book that actually the vast majority of women who are in debt are there because they don't understand how a loan works.

And like when you hear a stat like that, really this tells me one, it's an education issue, most definitely, is just people not understanding what is principal, what is interest, what are the terms. But also, and I would love to talk about this, most companies, again, are not thinking about you and your own best interests. They're thinking about how to make money off of you. So yeah, they give you term sheets that are college dissertation long, like it's crazy

or, again, 0% APR, but it kicks in at a certain time. And even like what you just said of, oh, it's not on the remaining balance, it's on the total, like the first amount, the original principle that you took out. So what kind of terms do we need to be looking at? Or what are the green flags, red flags when we're about to take on debt? I love that you're asking this question. It always depends on what you're taking the money out for, right, like what the reason is for, right? There's a difference between a mortgage

and maybe a personal loan because you wanna make repairs or whatever it might be. So it really is, the interest rate is always going to be important. One thing to really stay away from are flexible rates that change with the market. That's how a lot of people lost their homes during, you know, the home bubble and that crisis

is because there was a flexible rates. So it looked really good when you took out that loan, when it was really low, but people didn't account for when it was gonna be 7%, which increases their mortgage payment. So flexible rates are really big red flag for me because you don't know how high it can go for the most part. And even if it does go high, can you still afford it? Is the loan now still worth taking it out? Right. So that's a huge red flag. Green flags are fixed terms where you

know exactly what you're getting into. You're not going to have any surprises. Look for hidden fees. There's lots of conversations about junk fees. If you have a late payment, are you going to be charging extra $35? Or are you going to be charged an extra $50 if your deposit doesn't go through or your payment doesn't go through? So look for the additional fees that can get tacked on to a loan as well. Yeah. One of the things I always say, especially if you're doing like consolidation or you're moving one debt from another place, you always need to have a plan to pay that off. Like your furniture example, right? It's like, okay, if you're making an intentional choice

to say, yeah, I'm going to sign up for the 0% APR, whatever, and it only lasts for 12, 18 months, okay, fine, but you need to have a concrete plan to make sure that your debt is not there when the loan ends because to your point, then stuff really starts getting expensive. Very much so. Even in my example, had I read, so I did make a conscious choice to make it, you know, the 1920s months because in my head I was like, okay, I'll take the hit of extra couple of dollars because the balance is so low.

Right. It goes back to that, that educational piece and just making sure you know what you're getting into a hundred percent. Yeah. Do you believe in the idea of good debt versus bad debt? I would love to hear your thoughts on that and I'll share mine. I do think that there's bad debt. There are, I don't know if they still exist, but payday loans are...

Oh, they 100% exist, girl. Really? Oh yeah. I was going to ask you about it. I was going to ask you about it. I was going to say payday. I want to say short-term loans. Short-term loans in general are not a good idea.

Can we talk about, before you move on, because this is something that in almost every live workshop I do, I get on my soapbox and talk about because everyone who doesn't tell me that personal finance is, you know, has nothing to do with systemic oppression has never understood what a payday loan is. So can we talk about what these loans are? Because I think most of our listeners have never had to take one out or don't understand just how fucking predatory this is. So it is extremely predatory. It is a loan that is anywhere usually from paycheck to paycheck. So it can be anywhere between seven and 14 days. The interest rates are the issue

here. It's someone who needs a payday loan or takes out a payday loan with someone who was desperate for a couple hundred dollars. So these are not huge loans. These are anywhere between a hundred and let's say a thousand dollars on average. And these are people that are basically looking for an advance when they paycheck because they have to pay for something that they cannot wait until their paycheck arrives. And then the idea is they're supposed to pay that back when their paycheck comes in within the seven or 14 days, depending on what that loan was. The problem is most people are in a cycle.

By the time that payment comes up and their check comes up, something else has happened. They have to take another one out the following week because now the rent is due and they can't wait for their next check. It is a vicious cycle of borrowing money and paying back more money than you borrowed. And it is very hard to get out of that cycle once you start borrowing with a paid loan. And that's why I call it predatory because the interest rate is so high. I've seen some that were like 899%. Yeah, the average is 400.

The average in the country is 400%. And to put that for, it's insane. And to put that ground out for listeners, average credit cards, 22%, pretty high average student loans, like a five, six percent depending on the loan. So you're looking at, and I'm not, again, I'm not adding an extra zero. It's 400%. And of course that's a cycle because you're immediately four times more in debt than when you started.

Yes. And it tends to be lower income people, black and brown people, they tend to put these payday loan places in lower income communities. And like you've probably driven past a million of them, but maybe have not registered. And I don't know if you can say the names I can, but like we're talking like money trees, right? Like this is where people are going to get these loans that to your point, okay, normally, you know, an emergency fund we would hope would cover it, but it's the, I just need

$500 until I get paid next. Well, now it's $500 with 400% interest. Interest on it. Yeah. And it's also people that are doing this, I should mention, are the people that can't get credit cards. The only requirement for a payday loan is to have a job. Right?

So there are people who may not have credit history. There are people who are already in debt. And now this has become the choice to help them keep their heads above water. And you're absolutely right. It is very prevalent in specific neighborhoods where this is happening, where access to credit is not necessarily available.

So I know I keep harping on it, but this is my last question specifically about it is that there's so much about debt that can feel very freeing in terms of, you know, I again, and making this decision to hopefully better my life. And then there's so much of debt that is predatory or feels such like a slippery slope and especially that companies are not again out there in your own best that is predatory or feels such like a slippery slope. And especially that companies are not, again, out there in your own best interest, they're out there to make money.

So when we're thinking about going into debt, beyond just looking for those red flags or green flags, like what kind of gut check do we need to do, or what's going on psychologically for us before we make the decision to go into debt? So be intentional, right? If you're going into debt, be very intentional as to why. Because that doesn't have to be a four-letter word.

It can be a tool if you're using it as a vehicle for your financial freedom, right? If you're buying a home, that is a, and you know you can afford your home, that's a reason why you might take out a loan. If you just want the new bag that just came out because you want to keep up with the neighbors or the friends or whoever, and you really can't afford it, it's probably not the best decision, right?

So being intentional, if it's going to, I like to have a conversation about needs versus want, is it something you need? If it's something that's on your life plan, if it's something that's going to meet one of your goals, that's debt that you should be comfortable with. You can plan around, you can read all the terms and conditions, and it's not a four-letter word. If it is not intentional, if you're mindlessly spending, if you're putting everything on the credit card because it's more convenient, if you're only paying the minimums, right? You need to take a step back and look at like, why am I charging it?

Is it out of necessity? Am I dependent on credit to live my everyday life? There might be some lifestyle changes that might need to happen. So it really is just making sure that you're intentional with why you're using debt, why you're taking it out and understanding, you know, your payment plan on how you're going to make sure that you aren't just paying the minimums because that's also a trap, right? You're not going to get any time soon, only paying the minimums. Can you afford to pay more than a minimum of any debt that you take out is a really, really poignant question to ask yourself, right? Is this going to matter, right?

Is this something I can forego or is this something that I need to do or is this something that's on my path? A really great episode to check out if you'd like to learn more about payday loans is all the way back in our first season, episode six with my friend, Shisha Kleppi. Trust me, it's worth the scroll. When we come back, I'm talking with Natalia about a phrase you may have heard online recently, financial dysmorphia and why a shocking amount of women have fear around getting their finances together. Stay tuned. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online.

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$740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. So if saving nearly $800 a year sounds good, Rocket Money is for you. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money, go to rocketmoney.com slash FF pod today. That's rocketmoney.com slash FF pod rocketmoney.com slash FF pod. I would love to talk about what I think most of our audience struggles with when they're taking off on debt is that kind of like gray middle area because I agree. I think most of our audience struggles with when they're taking off on debt is that kind of like gray middle area because I agree I think okay, there's the necessity there's the need to take out debt or again, I'm gonna this is gonna advance my life in some way and I think most people understand Oh me doing like a crazy shopping spree at the mall is not it, but I'm seeing more and more now

it's like hey, I got invited to be the maid of honor at my best friend's wedding. And she's asking me to go on this bachelorette party that I cannot afford. Do I take on debt knowing it's a once in a lifetime experience? Or even, you know, Taylor Swift tickets, Beyonce tickets, like, okay, I'm trying to create memories here. I think that that's where a lot of people end up justifying debt to themselves because it's either like, I don't want to upset my friend. Hopefully she's not getting married again. This is a once in a lifetime experience. Taylor Swift's never going to go on an eras tour again.

So that's the gray area I would love to spend some time in because I think that's actually where a lot of people take on debt. They know the bags are are the one-time purchase feels like, okay, I'm probably not going to make that decision. But what about the emotional decision of, I need to be there for my best friend or I need to do this thing because it's never going to happen again? So it really is planning for when it happens. If you are a person that loves concerts, you love festivals, you love to travel. I don't think you have to stop doing those things, right? Even if you are carrying some debt, but you do need to plan for it.

Making sure, again, if you're paying yourself first in that it is, I like to go travel. So I'm going to make sure every time I get a check, I'm putting $5 or whatever I can afford towards my travel fund. So that when that does come up, I am available and ready to go if it is your best friend sometimes transparency is key, right? Your best friend should understand and hopefully should already know what you can afford or not, right? That's that's a friendship that needs to you know, you take them out for coffee or you know Walk in a park and have a conversation around like here's why I am financially, I want to support you, how can I do that without spending $1,000, right?

So have the conversation, and sometimes you'll find out who your friends really are, right? If you find that that bride is not really accepting of that, then is that really your friend? So sometimes those are hard truths that we need to find out when we have those conversations. It's be transparent and plan as much as you can. And even for people who are on a very low income, low budget, really decide, you know, sometimes we ignore the fact that we're talented people.

Everyone has a thing that they just do that somebody else would pay for. Take advantage of your skills, right? If you like to paint, sell some paintings. If you like to braid hair, braid some hair. You can make money in extra ways so that you can cover the additional expense if there's something that you truly want to do. Yeah, I love that. You have shared, quote, I don't believe debt discriminates.

Can you talk a little bit more about that and how you see that play out? It just doesn't. It's what I've seen. We have a huge demographic of people, young, old, multi-generational, different communities, really education around finances, especially around with women. I love that you said that earlier. There was a statistic out there, not a statistic, it's a fact. I can't remember what year it was, but there was a time where

women could not take a loan out without a male co-signer, right? And that wasn't that long ago. They couldn't get a credit card in their own name until 1974. Yep. And they couldn't get a business loan in their own name until, I believe, 1980. Exactly. So when you talk about education, right? We didn't get this from our parents.

And if you didn't have a male educating you, right? There's a lot behind that. It's difficult to just say that everyone has a level playing field because there's different education across different demographics. And then there's a matter of life happens to everyone. It doesn't matter who you are.

So you could lose a spouse, you can have medical debt pile up because we don't have free healthcare. And even when you have insurance, and that's something that surprises people a lot, just because you have insurance medical debt pile up because we don't have free healthcare. And even when you have insurance, and that's something that surprises people a lot, just because you have insurance does not mean that your medical bills are going to be low, depending on what the procedures are, right? There are people that have to pay $100,000 for open heart surgery and they have insurance

and that's going to put someone in debt. It's like you have to choose between, well, I'm taking out debt to cover my medical expenses and boom, it doesn't matter who you are. Right? So you could lose a spouse, you could be a two income household and become a one income household overnight. There were many people who owned homes, right? In 2008 had flexible interest rates and then they were homeless, right?

So, or on a house. So it can happen to anyone. Life just happens to everyone and you can't plan for everything. So that's why I say it doesn't discriminate at all. Yeah. And the part about having insurance, for example, I think the medical debt is some of the just, all debt feels a little icky, but that's the stuff where I just get really emotional because the cost of having a child in the United States is crazy. And you better have good insurance if you don't want to go into debt to do that.

And that's for a, I said, non-stressed pregnancy, but like a pregnancy that, you know, doesn't have additional complications. Right. And yeah, I mean, like my dad is literally going in for a medical procedure today. And I just think about, you know, they're going to be okay no matter what happens. But what if they didn't have insurance, first of all? But what if, you know, they didn't have an emergency fund? What if they had okay insurance?

And what if something comes up? Like, there's just a million ways that debt has nothing to do with how smart you are with money or how good your financial decisions are, there's so many parts of life that are of course unpredictable that unfortunately have a severe financial impact that you can only plan so much for. 100%. And even, I don't want to make it more, but I have a situation where I had a family member and we've had employees, unfortunately, pass and there was no way they're burial expenses, right?

That's also a debt that families take on, right? Because it's expensive. The medical debt is expensive. We have a lot of multigenerational families in our program as well, where there's children and they're taking care of elderly parents. You're paying for medical expenses for elderly parents and you're raising children and you're trying to live your life. It becomes really, really difficult. And that's just living your life, just being a family, right? That's not doing anything additional. It shouldn't be such a stigma around that because it really can happen to anyone,

especially when bad things happen. Well, I actually, once you started bringing up death, I thought you were going to say that sometimes if somebody dies, their debt still doesn't go away. Can we maybe talk about that for a second? I remember finding out for the first time that if you have a co-signer in your student loans and you die, that debt doesn't just vanish. Can we talk about that for a second? It does not. So when someone co-signs, they are essentially saying, I will pay this debt no matter what happens to the other person. Right.

So I frown upon cosigning, I don't even know if there's an unless. I know a lot of parents do it for their children, especially for like college loans and things like that, but it is not a good idea because you're exactly right. When you cosign for someone, you are responsible. It does impact your credit. It doesn't matter if that person stops paying. It's impacting you the same way it's impacting them. There's some states that will put it in kind of like if you have an estate, right?

So they will take it from your estate. They will put a lien against properties if that property is in that person's name. The creditors will find their money somehow, some way. So that is something, yes, that we do have to be aware of. But it's also important to know that the creditors are not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying.

They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying.

They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. They're not the only ones who are paying. put a lien against properties if that property is in that person's name, the creditors will find their money somehow some way. So that is something, yes, that we do have people who are retired and going back to work in our program sometimes just because they're worried about the debt they're going to leave behind for their families and they want to try to take care of it before they reach that point where they can't. And it's incredibly

heartbreaking. Can we talk about financial dysmorphia? Because I'm seeing it all over social media. And even when I ask our community, like, what is the number one thing you're nervous about with money? Almost all of the responses are like that I won't have enough, even if they're doing okay. So talk to me about what it is and how you see it play out. Absolutely. It is a psychological thing. So I can even say there's a point in my life where it didn't matter because I grew up with scarcity. It didn't matter how much I had.

I was afraid of going back to scarcity. So it was very hard for me to say, oh, this can all, I would tell myself this could all go away very quickly. So I need to squirrely more acorns. It's like, I have to get as many of these acorns as I can, hide them away just inorns. It's like, I have to get as many of these acorns as I can, hide them away just in case.

And then on the opposite end, when someone grows up in abundance, they don't necessarily know the value. And what happens when you don't, you know, put something away for something bad, and then people end up somewhere in the middle. So it's a matter of mindset. At the end of the day,

it's don't have the relationship with the money, have the relationship with your goals and how money can be the tool, right? So think of the money as a hammer or a wrench or whatever it is. And that's how I got myself out of it is a matter of every dollar should be working for you and you earned it, right? So make sure that it's working for you in a way that is best used for your life and your goals versus kind of worrying about what could happen, what might happen, but you plan for those things and once you have a plan for those things, you know, the anxiety around that kind of goes away. Sometimes people definitely overinflate how much they have to save because

they're so worried and they opposite and they are spending because they're like, oh, they'll always be more because that's the mindset that they've grown up in. Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest way that anybody with that financial insecurity, that money dysmorphia can work to change it is understanding your financial trauma. And that's why I spent like the whole first chapter of my book talking about it

because you can't get a budget together, you can't progress in your path to debt payoff and expect yourself to not self-sabotage in some way or make bad decisions. If you haven't understood how do you view money, what sort of narratives are you believing about money or people who have money? We have to start there as uncomfortable as it might be because that's the stuff that really actually impacts your decisions.

It's not about numbers, it's not about math, it's about your psychology and your emotions and how you grew up around money. 100% agree. I want to read that chapter again. There's another book, I can't remember the name of it right now, but I think it's The Psychology of Money. The Psychology of Money, Morgan Household. And when I read that, I was like, oh, that makes so much sense because we could end up judging other people for what their relationship is with money and how they're spending their money.

It's like, oh, I could never do that. But there's always a reason, right? There's always a psychological reason why someone is doing something. So I think, again, we tend to not have conversations, open, transparent conversations about where we are financially with our friends, with our family. The more you do that, the more you break down those walls, the more you don't

have to do it on your own. You don't have to break down these walls and get through it on your own. The more conversations you have, the more you can change your psychological landscape around it. Well, and related to that, we found the stat that says 40% of Gen Z feel like they do have the financial tools and education, but they're not using them. Why do you think that is? I don't know, but I'm going to guess it's probably because it's not practical, right? Anytime I get advice that sounds great, but then I don't use it, it wasn't practical, right? In use, it didn't work. Right?

So people know the right thing to do. People know I should save, right? But what does that mean? It's kind of like- Or why are you doing it? There's no psychological, like, there's no why for you. That's the thing I see with women all the time is like, everybody has been told you should save money,

but they're like, how much? Where should it go? Why am I saving? They don't have the details or the specifics. Exactly. So it's getting into those details. That's when advice becomes impactful, when it's actually meaningful to that individual. And it's also easy to implement. It's like dieting. You can say, I'm going to lose 15 pounds, but how are you going to do it? What are you going to eat? When are you going to work out? We. Like you have to go a mile deep and really set out that plan and a plan that actually works for you. What works for me doesn't work for Tori.

What works for anyone else? You have to do what works for you with the mindset that this is what my goal is and this is how I'm going to get there. And that might be a different path for everyone. Yeah, we always say on the show that a goal without a plan is just a wish. So if you're like, OK, I'm going to get my first 100k or I'm going to save my emergency fund and I'm like, okay, do you have an automation setup? Are you like limiting how much you spend money on stuff you don't even like?

Right, right. Are you trying to do it in six months? You trying to do it in six years? Like these are all really important things to know before you'd be like, yeah, I'm going to do this crazy audacious thing or even just like, yeah, I'm going to save my emergency fund. Yeah. So for me, it's don't stop there. Because I think the fun part is coming up with this big idea, right? But then once you have that big idea,

work backwards and figure out how you're actually going to get there. Don't stop at the big idea, then plan for that big idea, right? If that's something you're excited about, like use that to plan the whole thing out. One of the other things that I've been meaning to bring to Kristin, our producer, to do an episode on is the amount of messages I get like, oh, I have your book, but I'm too scared to read it. I think that there's a lot of people out there who are maybe listening

to this show or listened once or twice, but they're just so scared to look at their money. They're so scared to look at their debt because they haven't unpacked the shame. They feel anxious and they feel fearful. And I think often, especially with women sometimes too, we have the tools that we need or we have the education and we don't believe we're enough or we don't believe we're worthy of taking ourselves

and our decisions seriously. And so I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of it too, of like, okay, I follow the accounts or I have the books, but I like can't bring myself to read them or I can't bring myself to actually look because I'm too scared of what I might find. So what's going on there, especially when it, you know, the debt feels so overwhelming. So it's a tough question to ask yourself is, do I want things to stay the same or do I want to grow? Growing is sometimes painful. You have to take a hard look.

So it really is, you have to make that choice. Am I comfortable with being uncomfortable or do I want to make a change? Because you're already uncomfortable. You're already stressing about the money. You're already living day to day or whatever the situation is. There's a reason why the book was bought. Now you're afraid to open it. Do you want to live in that kind of perpetual state or do you want things to change?

If you want things to change if you want things to change? You have to do the hard thing But that first step is really it's just one foot in front of the other it opening the book is not going to you know You know and the world right turning the page getting into it And in getting that education getting the education and the tools has to be more important than the fear So you have to decide what's more important to you. I Love that everybody needs to go back about a minute and listen to that again. I will also say the thing that I always think about is like time passes anyway.

So the amount of people were like, Oh my God, it's going to take me years to pay off this debt, or it's going to take me years to learn how to money. First of all, it might not, you might be making it worse in your head than it actually is. But two, like time will pass anyway. So in five years, I'm going to be 35. And I can be 35 with, you know, no debt and thriving and doing all these things. Or I can be in the exact same scenario and actually worse because my debt is compounded during that time. So like time will pass anyway. You've got you have to decide what do I want these next six months, a year, five years to actually look like?

Yeah, you got to. It's a rational thinking, right? We like the warm fuzzy blanket around us at all times. Sometimes you have to take off the blanket. And yeah, that's a great analogy. It's like you're still going to age, you're still going to, you know, what do you want it to be in five years? I think sometimes we get into this immediate gratification and real life is a journey. So if you're on the journey anyway, you might as well make it the best

one you possibly can. When we come back, we're talking with Natalia about debt settlement, how to know if it's right for you and the pros and cons of consolidating your debt. I also talk about my personal views on personal loans and it actually might surprise you. Stay tuned. One of the things I'm really focused on for the rest of this year is using my free time for progress. So when I'm on a walk, when I'm doing dishes or putting away laundry, I want to make sure

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Masterclass.com slash FF pod. A lot of people don't know that I have a whole team behind me at her first 100K. It's not just the podcast. We have our programs. We have our general community. We have marketing. We have partnerships. We have so many parts of our business that need a really good team and I'm lucky to have one. And the

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visibility at indeed.com slash FFPOD. Just go to indeed.com slash FFPOD right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash FFPOD. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring indeed is all you need. So let's talk about what we can do. Like I think debt settlement is one of those questions that everybody wants to know about. So what kind of debt falls into this category and what should we be considering before we decide, yeah, this is the right decision for me. At National Debt

Relief, we do unsecured debt only. So that would be credit cards, medical bills, personal loans, things like that. And on the opposite end, just for anyone who wants to know, a secured debt is something that's attached to an asset like a mortgage or a car, things like that. At National Debt Relief, we enroll clients who have $7,500 or more in unsecured debt. How it works is, one, we do a free consultation. We do not accept clients that aren't eligible for our program. What we do is look at what the debt is, what someone's income might be, do they have the ability to be a part of our program because deposits are necessary to make sure that we have enough funds to settle debt.

Settlement is a simple example would be if you came in with $10,000, we would estimate that we would settle that at half, so about $5,000. So you go through that process. If you decide that you wanna be in a part of the program, we then set up an account or there's a savings account, we use that money to do the settlements.

And then we just rinse and repeat until all of the debt is gone. In comparison, there are other options, right? Some people try to do it themselves, but that can be very stressful. I don't know if you've ever had a phone call from a collector when I missed that furniture payment. I definitely got called about 12,000 times a day

and that can be really stressful. They're not always nice and their job is to collect money. So they're not necessarily there, again, in your best interest. Where national debt relief is, there is something called credit counseling, where you're still paying back the full balance, the interest rate may be lower, but it's still a longer term plan and you're still paying back more, right? If the goal is to get out of debt, debt settlement is, my opinion, the best option. There's also the option of taking out more debt. If there's someone with a, who still has credit worthiness, who wants to take out a big loan to take care of all of that debt, they can do that. But what I've seen is actually a lot of people

that come into our program have tried that at one point and they got the money and they didn't pay the debt. They paid for other things, right? Other things came up point and they got the money and they didn't pay the debt. They paid for other things, right? Other things came up, so they use that money for other reasons. So now they have that loan that was supposed to pay off the debt plus the debt that they didn't pay off. So those are the options. And then the worst of the worst, I want to say is if you can avoid bankruptcy at all,

do. And that's what debt settlement, I like to say, is like the step before bankruptcy. And there are going to be people that have to, but there's also upfront costs when it comes to bankruptcy where with national debt relief, there isn't. We don't charge a fee, of course, until we actually do the work. Other options will actually charge a fee upfront, which can, depending on where someone is, be unaffordable. Yeah. We talk about personal loans as a great solution for credit card debt. And the things I say is that this is a great solution for you if one, you really have tried to pay this off yourself and it's not working. Two, you have an emergency fund. And three, you have

a plan to pay this off because that's what I was talking about before. If this is just a get out of jail free staples that was easy button, I'll put this off until later. That's not the solution. It's not. But we've seen a lot of people actually in our community be able to, they have tons of credit card debt that compounds every day. They take out a personal loan at a fixed interest rate with simple interest. It's not compounding every day. And they actually feel like, okay, it's manageable and I can pay it off. But that's why I have the big asterisks of you have to have a plan. You have to make this, again, an intentional

conscious choice before you're just like, okay, but it's something else and it'll give me some time, right? It has to be always an intentional thing. And the other thing I always like to say, don't incur more debt, right? So once you get the personal loans and you pay it off, now be very intentional about what the debt is, right? Because that's also a cycle that I see. You don't necessarily want to take out personal loans every five years to cover the debt.

Right. Really hard to dig yourself out of a hole when there's sand slipping inside. Right. So when you're talking about debt settlement, who is this for? Like, can you give me an example? If you have $50,000 of debt, like if you've been in debt for three years, who is the ideal persona for someone who needs to consider debt settlement? The ideal person, one, would be someone who had an income change, right? They're still working, but maybe they're now a single household income. They were two and now they're one. That can have an immediate impact, right, on everyday finances. And all of a sudden, you know, when that money disappears, the debt that was being carried

is now unaffordable. Where someone who's just making minimums, where you can't afford to do much more than that. If you're just paying minimums, it's going to take decades to get rid of balances and even longer if you're still charging on that card. So that's really our idea. Client is someone who's still working, but is struggling to make those minimum payments who can't see a way out of the debt that they're carrying.

The amount really doesn't matter. Again, it's as long as it's over 7,500. We will work with that person, figure out a plan that works for them and their debt load, and then get them into a program that could be anywhere between 24 or 12 to 48 months, actually, usually is how long it takes for us to resolve clients' debt. What are the downsides of debt settlement? Are there negative repercussions? Yes, there are. And we're super transparent about them as far as debt and credit goes.

There is a negative impact to someone's credit score. A lot of our clients already have that impact because they made some late payments, they're carrying a high debt load already, or they're almost maxed out, things like that. I like to say our goal is to get you out of debt so you can rebuild your financial future. So if the goal is getting out of debt,

credit is not, in my opinion, the most important thing. You're not going to buy a home if you're carrying $50,000 in balances. So if the goal is getting out of debt, credit is not, in my opinion, the most important thing, right? You're not going to buy a home if you're carrying $50,000 in balances. You got to take care of the debt first. So that's the point of our program is we're very debt focused. Rebuilding credit and things like that can happen afterwards, but really taking care of the debt first is what's important. When we talk about debt and anything related to money, obviously I have a whole book about

this. We spent a good chunk of time on the show talking about it. The shame I think is so real. The shame of taking on debt, the shame that it got out of control potentially, the shame and anxiety and fear you have, especially if you're at the point where collectors are calling you. What do you say to someone who is in that really sorrowful shame spiral, that it just, it does not feel helpful anymore? To call us, 100%. We have, no, seriously, we have a really compassionate team. Sometimes you just need someone to listen. I mean, I've heard this many, many times, whether I was on the phone myself, or I've heard recordings when I'm doing audits and whatnot. Once someone has a plan, it's almost

like sunlight comes out, right? Yes, absolutely. The shame and that sorrowfulness comes from not seeing a way out. Once you can see a way out, then it's like, okay, now I can put one in front the other. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I know which direction I'm going in. And that builds so much confidence. And then you're doing something about it. Right?

So if you're not doing something about it yet, that's just going to sit in your chest. It's not going to go anywhere. But once you start moving and doing, it's kind of like if you were a couch potato and you start moving, there's like, oh, where'd all this energy come from? That's kind of what this is. It's a matter of just having a plan. When it comes to other people and shaming others around that because they've personally never experienced it. I mean, you could say that about a bunch of different things, but the reality is it's you and the decision you have to make for yourself or your family. If you're taking care of other people, what other people have But the reality is it's you and the decision you have to make for yourself, right?

Or your family, right? If you're taking care of other people, what other people have to say about it isn't necessarily important, but you do want to make sure that, you know, if you have the courage to do it, tell them, you know, this could happen to you. Do you have enough savings? Because the average American only has about $400 in savings, right? So the likelihood that something can happen to them and the support that they might need, again, conversations, everything is a conversation for me, depending on who that person is, of

course, but have the conversation. There shouldn't be shame around it. Even for people who I had a client once that I spoke to, one of her reasons for being in debt was she has a mental illness. She's impulsive and she did go on a shopping spree. She knew it was wrong, but she needed a dopamine hit and that's what happened. And she was so shameful about it. She had to go back and recover and get back on her mental health plan and all those things. And then she was getting herself out of debt. And that's what

needed to be celebrated. It's like you recognize that you got back on your plan and now you're doing something about it. So there's nothing to be ashamed of. There's a million and one reasons why people go into that. And I will remind everybody listening that the financial content you consume does not have to be tough love. And I'm putting that in quotes because tough love is just abuse everybody.

And I will call them out because I imagine you can't. Dave Ramsey and Caleb Hammer and all these people who yell at you for being in debt. because tough love is just abuse, everybody. And I will call them out because I imagine you can't. Dave Ramsey and Caleb Hammer and all these people who yell at you for being in debt. That's not helpful. It just makes you feel shittier. It's not actually, it's not going to make you take action. It's gonna make you feel worse.

And so I love what you said first of like before we go into plans, it's just like having somebody to empathize with you, having somebody see you and understand the stress you're in. I just realized that so much that money, again, it's not about numbers, it's about psychology and it's about being seen and feeling like, okay, somebody is helping me or taking care of me and not making me feel worse. And that is such an important part of this. Yeah. And I think that's what people fear, right? They fear that you're going to be judged.

They fear that people are going to snicker or talk behind their backs. And I think that's why a lot of people don't talk about it because they're more afraid of what the neighbor, in quotations, will say versus maybe the neighbor is a good person and is willing to help, but you will never know because of that fear. And I agree with you, I won't say their names or repeat their names, but yeah, I have seen the yelling and the shouting, and sometimes I've seen people, -"Oh, you idiot, you should have done this," or whatever.

And it's just like, well, the name calling is absolutely not necessary. It's taking out the fact that everyone has their own life experiences. They got to that place because of one reason or another, whether it was nurture, whether it was the environment that they grew up in. But it was just a genuine mistake, right? We don't need to- Right, lack of education. Right.

We don't need to yell that for that. It's more about what is the plan going to be? What's happened has already happened. It can't change, right? We can't go back. We don't have time machines. So it's really about taking care of the person and planning for that future. Yeah. As we're talking about, you know, debt or just the emotions of all of this, the word

that keeps coming up for me is like scarcity. And obviously, listen to the whole episode, I think we have some really, you know, you provided some really good information, but is there any last words you have about getting out of financial scarcity into you feeling confident and in control of your money? Yes. So it is really the plan, right? So where do you want to be? And being realistic about that, wherever it is that you want to be in a realistic timeframe, then work backwards. want to be in a realistic timeframe, then work backwards. You have the opportunity, whether take advantage of the skill set, I mentioned that before, we are all talented in multiple ways, even when we don't realize it. There's someone that says, oh, you should sell that or you should do this.

Capitalize on that. Sometimes you might need to leave the job. You might need to find a different job. Sometimes you may need to leave the job. You might need to find a different job. Sometimes you may need to go back to school. There are programs out there for people who are low income, whether it's a certification or if it's even just getting a scholarship, whatever it might be, that's an opportunity as well

for a lot of people in a lot of different places if you know where to look. I like to, I tell my kids this all the time, you can look at cat videos all day, but you have the entire world in your hand. There is information in there that is good. There's gonna be some really trash information, but there are good reputable sources that you can go to.

You can self-educate, you can start a business, you can online commerce is huge, right? There are things that you can do to plan and have a passion behind as well to get out of scarcity. It is just a matter of what your talents are, what the job is going to be, what the plan is going to be. I like to use Sundays.

It's either Sunday Funday or Self-Care Sunday, and I alternate between the two. Self-Care Sunday is not just spa day and everything showers, not just that. It's also, am I on track with the plans that I've made for myself? You've been reading my book. That's what we talk about is like self-care is not the bubble baths. It's the hard shit. It includes that, but it's not just that, right? Right. It's the stuff that feels uncomfortable in the moment, but makes future use life better. Yeah, absolutely. That is the whole point of the day, right? Is to not just make yourself feel good, but also make future self feel good with,

with intention. Um, so I think that's how you really get out of Scared City is one, also part of it is mental health, right? Is are you in a place to actually plan? Are there traumas that you need to heal? Are there, you know? Do you need therapy? I think that's something that a lot of people shy away from too. Debt is stressful. People get divorced over it. Over half, we did a survey, over half of people are divorced because of debt issues. And that comes in a whole host of family dynamics that all of those things come into play. So when you do Sunday, funday, self-care Sunday, and you're in

scarcity, just make sure that the plan includes the whole person, right? Like we like to say, whole human finance, right? You are a whole person. You have different aspects. Are you addressing each aspect? Because they all flows into the quality of your life. Shame is bullshit. We know that. And I'm so glad there are other women out here like Natalia, disrupting this narrative. Remember, you don't need to be screamed at in order to make change effective. We actually recently talked about this on our episode with Dr. Martha Beck. If you're looking for more resources on how to work through trauma, anxiety, and financial scarcity.

When we come back from break, we are rounding out our conversation with Natalia by talking about how she's preparing the next generation to be financially confident. And I tell a story about my own financial education growing up that I've actually never shared on the podcast. We appreciate you supporting our sponsors that make the show free. Stay tuned. The future is very unpredictable right now. And it's especially unpredictable if you run a business. Between talks of a recession and tariffs and stock market craziness, it's really hard to figure out what's coming next. And until someone invents a crystal ball, over 41,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle. It's the

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One of my favorite things I own from Quince, I literally own two of them, is like a just simple white tank top. I wear it with everything. I wear it during transition seasons, but also when it's really hot out, it's absolutely fantastic. Quince only works with factories that use safe,

ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince. Go to quince.com slash FFpod for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's q u i n c e dot com slash ffpod to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash ffpod. My last question for you, and you mentioned your kids. We don't want the next generation to have to deal with this kind of shame. So you have two boys. Can we talk about what

sort of discussions about money are you having with them? Do they come to you with questions? If you have children or you have nieces and nephews, or you're close with your friends' children, how can you have conversations with them about money so that we don't perpetuate the cycle of shame? My nieces actually laugh because she's like, oh, here goes Auntie Nat. They're like, oh boy, give her the soap box, here we go. She's 22 and she's just gotten her first job. She's just gotten her first apartment. So now we're talking about, well, what does it look like in five years?

She's like, oh, I haven't even thought about that yet. And I'm like, well, we're going to talk about it. With our kids, what we talk about is, well, when they were young, we did savings, right? And we had fake money. So chores, you got fake money and then you can turn in that fake money at the end of the week for like whatever price. And that's how we like kind of started one learning what dimes and nickels were. And then also like what spending is.

And then as they got older, they got actual savings accounts where they got debit cards. And if they wanted things from the stores like, well, that's going to cost this and you have an app on your phone that tells you how much it's in there. Is that what you really want to do? Because if you spend that money, you have no more money. You can't ask me for any more money. So those were hard lessons at times because, you know, the first couple of times they're like, Oh, mom's just going to give me another 20 bucks. No, I'm not. And I stuck to that. And then my oldest one now has a credit card. We've had some challenges and overspending and not necessarily paying attention, but those are lessons that we need to learn early

before he's out on his own. So savings, we talk about investing one summer, actually two summers, we did a fake investing profile. There's lots of things online where you can, you know, give them a certain amount of money. We had a family competition of like, who can make the most money over the summer in this fake trading environment. So we do different things and try to make it as fun as

possible so that it's not, oh, here's another boring lesson kind of thing because they need to be engaged. But also just being really practical about this is, you know, what you're going to have to do in life to be successful. And I don't shy away from what our assets are. This is what we have. This is what it should be all age appropriate, of course. But talk about it when you go to the supermarket. I'm not getting that because it's not on sale. Look at the ounces to, you know, the price for this brand. This is this brand.

You have all of those conversations in real time. And, yeah, they've they've picked up on a lot of it. So I'm actually really proud of them now because they're very much like, oh, that's way too expensive and I don't think that makes sense. Maybe I'll get the off-brand of whatever it is because they're like, well, I want this PlayStation controller that I'm saving for, so I need to spend less over here. So they start making those decisions and those trade-offs on their own.

And just when I think I've told every single story on the podcast, you just sparked something for me. I talked a lot about financial education I received from my parents. And one thing I completely forgot my mom taught me until you just said it was, I remember being in the grocery store with her probably middle school or high school. And, you know, I would help her and I'd be like, Well, this one's cheaper. You know, I'd look at the price and she goes, we're not looking at the price. We're looking at the little small price that says like, how many ounces, you know, how many, how much sense is this per ounce or whatever?

And I still, oh my gosh, that blew my mind when I first saw it. And so that's, you know, when I'm in Costco and I'm at Safeway, whenever I'm grocery shopping, that's always what I'm looking for. And that's so funny, you just brought that up. I completely forgot she taught that to me. It's not really about the sticker price. It's about, yeah, it's about like, especially with inflation right now, like a lot of the packages are getting smaller, but the price is staying the same. So like when I'm looking at two

olive oils, I'm not looking at the price. I'm looking at like, okay, what is the cost per ounce? How much did these ounce cost you? Right. So yeah, look at that, that granular level. And I think that's a great tip as well for anyone who's especially now with inflation and shopping, look at how much, especially for things that you use all the time, right? If it's cereal or whatever it is, make the decision based on the cost per ounce, not the overall cost. And I know that might be difficult sometimes, but you actually are saving more money if you're getting the 48 ounce box over the 24

ounce box because each ounce actually costs you less. Thank you so much for your expertise. Thank you for your work. I have no doubt that this episode is going to be so valuable for people. It's gonna be shared among people. Like if you have debt, if you know somebody who's struggling with debt, somebody struggling with financial scarcity,

this is a great episode to send to them. So plug away, my friend, where can people find out more about you and your incredible organization? So we're at nationaldebtrelief.com, and all you need to do is put out a little form and we'll actually call you. Or give us a phone call at 800-300-9550. Amazing.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you to Natalia for being here. You can learn more about her work through the National Debt Relief. She does some incredible work around getting people out of debt, helping them pay it off, and we appreciate her expertise. Thank you as always for supporting the show. Thank you for sharing this episode with somebody who you know is struggling with debt or might need it. Thank you for being a resource to them. And thank you for supporting feminist media, especially right now. We appreciate

you subscribing and leaving a review and sharing the show. We'll see you back here very soon. Bye. If you're confused about your personal finances and you're wondering where to start, go to herfirsthundredk.com slash quiz for a free personalized money plan. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamesha Grant. Research by Sarah Shortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf. Marketing and operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Lafue. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K.

Kaylyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmukhyeva, Sasha Bonar, Ray Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Darrell Ann Ingman, Shelby Duclos, Megan Walker, and Jess Hawks. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community

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