Financial Feminist - 239. The Cost of Being Trans with Ash Perez

Episode Date: June 16, 2025

Register for our FREE workshop, Stock Market Secrets: Debunking Common Myths for Successful Investing: herfirst100k.com/secrets-pod You might think you know the financial cost of transitioning—but what you’ll hear in this episode will completely reframe how you think about money, identity, and survival. In this episode, I spoke with Ash Perez –– Cuban-Korean-Filipino writer, director, producer, and openly trans man who’s sharing what it really takes to live authentically in a world that often doesn’t make room for that authenticity. From top surgery and hormone therapy to lost job opportunities and acne treatments during a second puberty, Ash gets incredibly honest about the hidden, ongoing expenses of transitioning—and why we need to start thinking about them as necessary, not excessive. This is one of the most candid and enlightening conversations we’ve ever had on the show. Ash walks us through not only his journey through gender discovery, divorce, grief, and systemic hoops—but also what cisgender allies often get wrong when trying to support trans folks. If you care about queer communities, want to be a better ally, or are just ready to expand your perspective on what financial security and self-acceptance really look like, tune in. Ash’s links: Website: https://www.2ndtry.tv/  Substack: https://substack.com/@itsashlyperez Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/cost-of-being-transgender-ash-perez/ Looking for accountability, live coaching, and deeper financial education? Check out our exclusive community! Join the $100K Club: https://herfirst100k.com/100k-pod Our favorite travel and cash-back credit cards, plus other financial resources: https://herfirst100k.com/tools Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Special thanks to our sponsors: Squarespace Go to www.squarespace.com/FFPOD to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase. Rocket Money Stop wasting money on things you don’t use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com/FFPOD. Quince For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince. Go to Quince.com/FFPOD for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Netsuite If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, download the free e-book Navigating Global Trade: 3 Insights for Leaders at NetSuite.com/FFPOD. Masterclass Get at least 15% off any annual membership at Masterclass.com/FFPOD. Indeed Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com/FFPOD. ResortPass Visit Resortpass.com and use code FFPOD to get $20 off your first ResortPass experience. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You would not believe how much this trans filmmaker spent on gender-affirming care. And some of what he spent the money on will shock you. This is a conversation about being transgender that you've never heard before. And what you're getting wrong as a queer ally. Let's get into it. Asperez is a writer, director, author, and producer.

The truth is, does it make you happy to do this, even if it's outside of what you've traditionally been told that men or women or non-binary people are supposed to do or look like? Then do that and eventually you land where you're supposed to be. A queer first generation Cuban, Korean, and Filipino-American himself, Ash is focused on telling underrepresented stories in every genre. He has written for ABC's Home Economics and Freeform's Good Trouble, and most recently he created New Guy Tries for Second Try TV, which follows his exploration of manhood as a newly transitioned

man. We know how hard it is to even be where we are, and so I don't know any marginalized person who doesn't turn around and give back. And yet, how many billionaires don't give any money, donate any money, don't give us shit? We're talking with Ash today about the cost of being trans. From his health care to surprising costs he never expected, both financially and otherwise. We talked about Ash's life before and after transition, and it's one of the most honest, vulnerable accounts of being transgender and gay

awakening that I've ever encountered. I think I grew up with a lot of judgment because of how I was raised too, for women who got surgery, or women who wanted to wear more makeup, because you know, we also, we just make things harder for each other too. He also talks about navigating life, going through a sacred puberty,

and his new guy-ness with friends and family. It's like, it's hard enough to be a woman, but it's like, there's a right way to be a woman, or a right way to be a man, but it's like there's a right way to be a woman or a right way to be a man. And now, including with cis people, I'm just like, if it makes you happy, more power to you. This is one of the most interesting episodes we've ever done on the show. And if you have a lot of questions about someone who's transgender, about how to both support them, but also what to do if you script their pronouns or don't know

how to support them best. This is an episode that feels so incredibly kind and vulnerable, but also so life-affirming too. I'm so grateful for Ash for sharing his experience transitioning. And I think this is one of the best episodes we've ever done on the show. Let's get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors. ["The Daily Show Theme Song"] Ash, can you tell me who you are, what you do, and why it's so important? Oh, yes. My name is Ash Perez. I am a writer of all mediums, a comedian, I guess. And it's important because, well, it makes me happy and because people hate trans people right

now. And so being trans visibly, I hope, helps other trans people and also other cis people who just don't know about trans people. Yeah. We like to ask people on our show uniquely if there's a first time you remember thinking about money. Oh, that's... Yes, it was about allowance. I remember that my cousins got this cool little, like,

file folder thing for their allowance, and it was divided into specifically things to save and things to like... And I was like, we should have that. But my parents were like, no. And I remember thinking that would have been helpful. And now looking back at it, I think that's where all my money problems started. So that's why we asked, like asking the question, because actually your first money memory says a lot. Yeah, that's interesting.

But I love that. I love that the money memory is not so much about the money, but the organization of the money. Yeah, which I think also was a clue that I had ADHD and was like, had a feeling that I was going to need organizational help with things. Yeah. But I love that that you saw the file folder and you're like, that's the shit that I need. I was like, that looks good. The money inside, not so much, but I love that you saw the file folder and you're like, that's the shit that I need. I was like, that looks good. Yeah, the money inside, not so much, but I need the folders.

I need an office depot trip immediately. Well, it just made it seem so much more professional. Yeah, totally. To keep your allowance in a folio. Well, yeah, then it's like income. Yeah, that's what it felt like. I'm a big boy. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. You mentioned that you didn't come to I'm trans immediately. Can we talk about that process of discovering that for yourself? Yeah, you know what? It's weird because I knew I was gay immediately, although now I guess straight for the most part. I was actually going to ask you if your gender preference has changed. Well, now at first, just by principle, I was bisexual, but 95% women and 5% men.

And now, on principle, that 5% is very important to me because I just don't want to be a straight man. But even more, the more testosterone I take, the more men look better to me. Interesting. And that happens to a lot of trans guys. So I think the reason that cis guys are so obsessed with the like no homo thing is because they're actually a little bit homo.

Well, it's the lonely island no homo, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But yeah, I always knew I was gay. I always knew I liked women. And, you know, when someone's like, oh, do you have a... Because people are weird and ask little kids like, do you have a crush on any little boys or whatever?

And I was like, no. They pick their noses, they're disgusting. Yeah, exactly. But I was like, no, I did like girls, but I knew that that wasn't supposed to be an answer. But what's funny is I used to have dreams when I was a kid that I had a crush on a girl, and then I would be found out that in the dream I was a boy, and I would be found out that I was a girl.

But the only way I could process that because transness was just like not on my radar at all was I guess I'm a boy in my dreams because boys are allowed to like girls. And so I was like, oh, so I actually think I've known a lot longer. And I have a trans sibling who came out like four years before me and I still was like,

nope, I'm not trans. Like, but I was- I was like, that's great for you. Yes, exactly. And I was always, but then looking back, there's so many things. I mean, just my obsession with Mulan and like my obsession with-

I get it. Yeah, like so many things that I'm like, oh, those were all signs. And I just didn't know how to read them. Yeah. You know, cause I knew gay was a thing, but I didn't know trans was a thing. Well, and especially in a culture that demonizes that,

or it's not socially acceptable. Yeah, and I was a super Christian growing up. Like I was raised super Christian. And so it was bad enough to be gay. I was like, but then like- That's enough to recognize. Yeah, exactly. And I was like, I remember there were all these,

MTV used to do these like documentaries, just about like all sorts of shit, but like some, one of them was about transgender people. And I remember being obsessed with that documentary and just thinking it was so interesting. Now I'm like, oh, I get it. You felt seen. What was that like coming out process like for you,

especially if you had a sibling who was? Who had already come out of strip. Yeah. I mean, the funny thing is it was coming out again, it felt kind of dramatic. I was like, coming out for a second time is just a funny kind of concept, but I think for me. Was there any shame that you had to do it again?

A little bit, and then a little bit I was just over it. More than anything in my second coming out, it was partially a little bit traumatic. I was married at the time and I had told my ex-wife about like the gender journey that I was like, starting to feel like I was going on. She knew I was going to a gender therapist. But then when it like, when push came to shove

and I like came out and said like, I think I'm a man, you know, it caused some issues. And so it was a little bit more traumatic actually than my first coming out. It caused issues in your relationship? Yeah, in our relationship. And then also just, yeah, like in our relationship, it wasn't... I imagine on both sides, that's a lot of...

That's just an interesting, like, identity shift for you and then for your partner. Yes, for most trans people, that tends to be an issue. And the bigger thing is it's more of just an issue, like, I don't think my divorce was a result of my transition. I just think that transitioning is such a big thing that it often exposes issues that were already present. Totally.

But transitioning was interesting. And it was also such a slow kind of amalgamist process, even for myself, because I at first was like, I'm gonna go by any pronouns, like the Jonathan Van Ness thing, and then was a little bit like maybe he, they, and now I still go by he, they pronouns, but I was very like unsure of where I wanted to land. And so the coming out of it didn't seem, there wasn't the same kind of goalpost.

And like I slowly started cutting my hair, you know, you social transition and it was COVID. So I wasn't even around people, which was nice. I think it was a lot nicer to not have to show up the next day somewhere and be like, hey, I'm a completely different person. Your dad had died too. Yes, my dad died and it was very, uh, my dad dying was part of the reason that I came out in that I realized, you know, I was so, I was so tied to the idea of being daddy's girl. It was like such a special thing to me

that I don't think I realized how much I didn't want to disappoint my dad and I wanted to stay daddy's girl. And so when my dad died, I felt this like enormous desire to cut my hair that I thought was about grief. And it ended up being like a trans thing. It's like the Get Bangs version. Yeah, exactly, the Get Bangs version of grief.

And you're like, no, it's not a bangs, it's a gender identity thing. It's a trans, yeah. That's so funny, it's so true. It's not a bangs, it's a trans thing. Yeah, it is. Worth that t-shirt. So I think, yeah, with the coming out thing,

it's often, you're right, it does have to feel like, oh, I have it all figured out now before I can do this. And there's like a weird amount of pressure as opposed to just, I don't know, I'm figuring it out and we might not get to a point where it 100% feels like a right moment. Yeah, I think people, the pressure is also, some of it's internalized and then externalized

as you make those bigger steps of like, okay Cutting my hair people are gonna start to ask like what's going on? Because you know, like I was a sorority girl before I'd had hair down below my boobs and like the boobs wasn't even like a Thing. Yeah that I was even remotely starting to tackle yet, even though that was I think the first thing that I knew Yeah, I did definitely the first thing that I knew definitively. Had to go. Yeah, I did. Definitively. I was like, you know, I actually got top surgery before I started hormones, which is pretty

rare, but I was so sure that I didn't want boobs. I wasn't sure I wanted all the other changes, but I was like, I know I don't want boobs. Interesting. Yeah. I didn't realize that it was, it's typically there's like a schedule. I mean, part of it is some of the stuff that like sucks about being trans is that

they've established all these medical guidelines and a lot of them- Is it for your health or? No, a lot of it is for hoops for insurance. And literally- Of course, because we live in America. Well, and you have to get these letters literally saying that you're like, that you have gender dysphoria,

but also that you're like, you basically have to say that you have a mental illness in order and have to have- Right, in order to get taken seriously. Yeah, and have to get a psychiatrist to like sign off. Whereas like, if I was a cis woman and I wanted size G, double G boobs right now, all I would need is the money.

I don't have to have anybody tell me anything about what I can or can't do with my body. But if I'm- As someone who has double G boobs, Ash? Yeah. It's not worth it. Yeah. It's not worth it.

But it's like, that I think is the crazy part of like another tax or like unknown thing about being trans is just the hoops that you have to go through. Well, let's go there. So like, okay, we come out, we realize that this is for us. What then is, so the health insurance hoops most definitely. I know even for me, like I looked into breast reduction surgery and oh my god, one, it's very rarely covered by insurance. Which is crazy unless you have like you have to get a chiropractor and everybody to say one it's very rarely covered by insurance two is crazy unless you have like you have to get a chiropractor and everybody to say but even sometimes then it's not yeah because it's like you have to prove that it's like causing definitively and i'm like look look at me i have to i'm like this all the time but so yeah you have to like prove that and then the actual you know downtime because it's a full surgery

Yeah, so let's talk maybe yes about the insurance hoops and then is it covered what yeah what happens? So I have a lot of privilege being a trans person who is insured and has good insurance with the WGA But like for the average trans person, this is like we're talking about the most privileged version and it's still complete shit. But even to that end, I had surgery that would have been 90% covered through if I had gone through UCLA, which is my provider basically. 90%, that's huge. Yeah, it's a lot.

It's like, I had a $400 deductible and then I would have had, I think it was maybe 80 or 90%, a lot, my insurance is really good. That's great. But the other part is considering, like I went in to get the consultation and it was so, you just go to a plastic surgeon who's mainly dealing with breasts for cis women,

and that is not their specialty working with trans people, and I got misgendered, and I got like just no treatment. It was like the fastest consultation and this is like the biggest decision of your life. And I was like, I can't go to this person to make one of the biggest decisions of my life about my body that's permanent. And so I actually found another doctor

who specializes in top surgery. They're based out of New York, but they have an LA office too. And I ended up paying $5,000 out of pocket where I wouldn't have had to just because... You wanted to be seen. Yeah, I wanted to be safe. I wanted to be seen. I wanted to make sure that somebody cared as much as I did. Because there are major difference between, even though it's a double mastectomy,

there's a big difference between what you're actually getting done. This doctor actually had a technique where you didn't have to have drainage bags, which is like a big painful thing, and he did liposuction to make them contouring more immediate. So, like, and that was a decision that I, like, I had to put that on a credit card because I wasn't in a position,

wasn't expecting it to be $5,000, but it was like, okay, what is actually gonna be more important for me and my mental health, which I know is really big on your podcast and in the whole like ecosystem, which I think is great, because so many people don't consider when thinking about money, about the cost of your mental health.

You know? Yeah. Well, and it's a decision that you're so right. You're making for the rest of your life. Yeah. Yeah. And you want to feel good in your body. And the last thing you want is like a botched surgery. That's why it's one of the many reasons I have not gotten.

And again, I'm trying to, it's not comparable, but this is my lived experience as a cis woman. It's like, I am freaked out, it's not comparable, but this is my lived experience as a cis woman, is like, I am freaked out, because it's a full surgery, and like, they move your nipple, which is crazy to me. I had a, I would say, I got the surgery where they, they moved part of, they like shaved down and moved my nipple.

You don't actually need nipples, because a lot of times the sensation isn't there anyway. If I could do it again, I would just not have gotten nipples and I would have gotten the tattoos. Yeah. So I think for cis women too, that's something to consider. I like my nipples. I don't want to get rid of them. Yeah. That's the big thing. So when we're talking about like $5,000 out of pocket, again, you're talking definitely from a privileged position of having insurance. But also, can we talk about like if you are trans and you're not able to financially

afford the either surgeries or the haircuts or just to feel like you are representing the gender identity that you that is you like what's going on there? Well, even up to that point, having a binder is an expensive thing, because if you don't do it correctly and you just use an ACE bandage, you can cause permanent damage and affect your future surgeries. A lot of people who are trans are binding, you know, longer than they should be because of the gender dysphoria, but actually, you can have an inverse effect

on when you're later able to get surgery. The skin is kind of too stretchy, and so it can negatively affect you. So there's always a cost to every, like, it makes me think so much about like beginning economics of opportunity cost of all this, of like, what is the cost of me getting the surgery and putting this on a credit card? What is the cost of me not getting this surgery mentally? And, you know, if it becomes something,

I think there's a point in transition where once you have come to terms with yourself and are ready to do this, it becomes this thing that is occupying the forefront of your brain, which like, it becomes this thing that is occupying the forefront of your brain, which, like, you can't work the same way that you could. You're constantly thinking about this one issue, and, you know, that's a cost, too, to your ability to earn money or your ability to just function. So, like, outside of that, like, I was just, I'll go through some of these and then you can, like,

we can talk about any or all of them. Also, I love you done your homework as a statistic. Yeah, because I was like, I'll go through some of these and then you can, like, we can talk about any or all of them. Also, I love you done your homework just to get this done. Yeah, because I was like, oh, Costa being trans, and I was just thinking, oh, we'll talk about my top surgery. And then I was like, no, there's so much more to it. When we come back from this word with our sponsors, Ash is walking us through all of the costs he incurred during his transition. He literally wrote them out on the notes app of his phone,

as well as the surprising costs he wasn't prepared for. And what transitioning might look like if you don't have the financial support or resources. We'll be right back. -♪ So therapy, gender therapy specifically, like once I realized I had been with my therapist for like 10 years, she's amazing, we had done some great stuff together and then I kind

of realized and she did too like, hey, I think I'm a little out of my depth for the gender therapy stuff. And I found this amazing doctor, Dr. Z, who I had watched her YouTube videos. But if you're seeing someone who's on YouTube and like doing well, it's because they're very expensive to do. Most of the time they don't even take private clients. So I was paying, I think, $350 out of pocket for that for one session. And it was one of those things where it's like, is this worth it? Holy shit.

And I was able to get some of that comped back, but you know, your insurance will only pay up to a certain amount and they pay 60% of that. Are they a network? Exactly. And a lot of this isn't a network. So therapy, gender therapy, top surgery, I had my eggs frozen. Is this before? I didn't do it before.

I did it afterward, which is not as advised, but is still, I mean, there's just not really many studies about this. Was this before taking hormones? Because you... No, I did it after taking hormones. So you can... This is my naive tie. Is that possible? Yes, you can.

So, you can... There aren't many studies. I had been a little less than a year on testosterone. You have to stop the testosterone in order to start ovulating again. Makes sense. And then they don't have, I mean, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence, but not enough, a big enough scientific study, but plenty of trans people have, especially like F to M trans people have been on testosterone for much longer than I were gotten their eggs

and actually even been able to carry their children. So that's another thing. Like, but even trying to make that decision, I was really lucky. I found a resource. I can't remember it now. It's a resource that cis women use to that, like, educates you on IVF. But luckily, they had decided to make free a course for trans people because that's another access issue. And so I was actually able to take a course from a trans person

that was free that normally would be $3, $400. So that's another thing that I think a lot of people who ask me, how can I help trans people right now? In more ways than you think, your business may also be able to offer a service to trans people that is just like, can you offer this for free? Can you find some way to help lower the barriers to entry that trans people have? And it might not seem something that's trans specific,

but it's like if trans people are spending thousands of dollars just to be themselves, then I love places that are like, oh, for our comedy venue, for like people of color or trans people, there's a 10% discount. Like anything helps, you know? Even though it's not directly tied to that. Egg freezing, cost of testosterone, going to an endocrinologist.

How much was tea? Tea for me is about $20 a month. Is it like? No, it's like this big. Is it like? No, it's like this big. It's like the smallest vial ever. Yeah. Well, something's bigger than that.

I know. Yeah, and it's like, and you need the needles. And also there's ways, again, I found out later that you can go, at least through my insurance, if you use delivery pharmacy versus in-person, you can save money and they can give you 90 day supplies. So I did that now and it's like significantly lowered my cost. It's like the good RX version.

Literally. Literally. Testosterone, getting a hysterectomy. I'm planning on getting a hysterectomy, but right now because of WGA stuff, like my insurance might be up in June. And so I'm like, I don't want to get a hysterectomy even though I could afford it.

But even still, with my insurance, I just got quoted, it would still be $1,000 for that. Which is not cheap. It's not cheap. Hysterectomy, that's $1,000. And I'm like, and then the cost again of taking off work, having someone take care of you. Right. You know, like, luckily I have the again of taking off work, having someone take care of you, you know, like luckily I have.

You're not earning money during that time. Yeah, and you can't, and for top surgery. What if you don't have PTO? Exactly. Yeah. For top surgery, it's a lot easier to recover from than a hysterectomy. You know, hysterectomy is more intense, they're removing organs versus fat.

So that was another thing. Then I had just finding community camps, paying for like, there's amazing resources for trans people, but like you pay for those spaces, you know, going to these things. Changing my documents pre-Trump, like I immediately realized, holy shit, I need to change everything. And I was really lucky that I was able to,

but there was $500 like that, just in all the fees, expediting. Yep. And I didn't have an option. It was just like, I have to do this right now. Yeah. Getting global entry, things that are like, okay, if I have this, that will make it probably easier to not be questioned as much. Yeah.

Yeah, wow. Yep, nipple tattooing, scar treatment, acne treatment. I'm going through fucking puberty again. The amount of money I had spent on hero cosmetics on the little pimple patches. I saw you were like, oh, they sell them at Costco now. I was literally like, when is Costco gonna help a guy out? And like, because those are expensive as fuck.

And I found out recently that you can just get hydrocolloidal patches and cut them yourself. But like, the amount that I've spent just now on acne care that I thought I was fucking done with has been monstrous. Like getting, like I get cystic acne now and I've had to get cystic acne removed. And again, it's like all of that, I have pretty decent healthcare,

but like, what if I don't have healthcare? Or what if I, like, can only afford the cheapest healthcare? It's not going to cover any of that shit, you know? Whole new wardrobe. Gender-affirming, like, you know, you're slowly changing your style, but then you're also just changing your, the first is changing your style. And then on testosterone, I'm literally growing,

I'm becoming more muscular. Your clothes don't fit the same way anymore. My clothes do not fit me. The other day I put on something, I went to the track, I said, shoot something, and I just brought an outfit that I thought that I've worn so many times. The amount of times I've brought an outfit

and it doesn't fit me anymore. And I was like, fuck. Oh shit, I need to try things times. The amount of times I've brought an outfit and it doesn't fit me anymore. And I'm like, fuck. Oh shit, I need to try things on. But it was good. New guy tries things on. Yes, new guy tries outfits. Divorce, which I don't know if that's like 100% part of it, but it's built into that.

And then like gym and like making sure that now that I have this body that I want, trying to keep myself healthy, keep myself active, and like, it's fucking, you know how much protein you have to eat to like... Yeah. We're like constant, and that's expensive stuff, supplements, all that. And again, you don't have to do that, but it's gender affirmation. And so, when you're really thinking about all the costs

that go into it, and that's just for a trans man, I was also thinking like the other types of surgery you can have facial feminization surgery, you could have jaw surgery, lipo, paying for safer housing or public transport. Do you take public transport if you know it's going to be less safe for you? Or do you spend extra money to get a private Uber

versus an Uber pool? You know, like these are all things that you have to think about. It's one of the things I talk about in my book of like the costs that we don't think about for women, for queer people. It's like you live in Los Angeles where you're not completely safe, but you're safer.

Yeah. What if you're in Kentucky? It's cheaper there. Yeah. But at what cost to your mental health, your physical health, your safety? And by the way, if you're trans in Kentucky, you probably don't have the doctors

that I have access to. Absolutely not. So you're gonna fly for surgery. Like I was lucky that I didn't have to fly for surgery. I would say probably over 50% of trans people have to fly to get the care that they need. Yeah, well, and I just think about, like, yeah, what cities are you living in?

What neighborhoods are you living in, right? Like, WeHo or like, Capitol Hill in Seattle, where I'm from, right? That's the gay neighborhood. That's a very expensive part of town. Yes. To have an apartment, to own a house. Because gays are culture, and so it's more expensive. But the problem is, too, I even thought about,

oh, I would like to move somewhere that's cheaper, but it's not gonna be safe for me. So it's like the coasts and these big cities are the safest place for me, but the cost of- For rents, 2,500 easy. Exactly, but the cost of living is like so much higher. And so that's something for, you know, queer people that they have to think about a lot

that I think other people don't realize, oh, that's part of the cost too. It's the thing we talk about for women. It's like the amount of like finance dudes who are like, we'll just bike home. And I'm like, four or five months out of the year, it gets dark at five, five 30. You want me to bike home?

Yeah, yeah, no, no. Yes, that saves money. But if you're a cisgendered straight white dude, fine. But like that doesn't make sense for the rest of us. Yeah, no, it really doesn't. And it's, those are all the things that I'm like, even me having lived through this, once I added it up, I was like,

oh, there's a lot more to this. It's a lot of stuff. Lost job opportunities, and then also like hair removal and stuff, you know? So it ranges the whole gamut from like normal cosmetic things that everybody has to think about. And it's just a little bit different

because of gender affirmation to, am I not getting this job because I'm trans? Right. If we had to put a dollar amount on it, what are we at now? For lost job opportunities? Oh, just all of it. Oh, for all?

God. 15K? Oh, more than that. More than that? Probably, well, on the low end, probably 15K. On the higher end, 30K. What if you go through with the hysterectomy too?

Yes. And then all the, and again, it's not just what you're spending, it's what you're not earning when you're taking care of yourself, when you're going through all of this stuff, when you're having to relearn to eat, or even just like, literally the acne stuff adds up so quickly, even just in like,

I could wash my face with water before, because I had already gone through puberty, I had gone through, and now I'm adding salicylic acid, I'm back to being like a skincare girly, and I'm like, yeah, and I'm like, should I get AccuTune? And it's so expensive because just per month, those things add up so quickly. So it's like little things that you're like, oh, that might not be adding that much. It could add $2,000 a year, you know?

Well, and you also work in entertainment. And I have to like have, that's part of my job. Right, and so you think, somebody listening, I don't think any of our listeners, but it's easy to go, well, like not all of this is necessary. And it's like, first of all, yes it is to feel good in your body. But second of all, it's like, yeah, if your body,

your face is- Part of your job. Yes, your product, right? Like you kind of have to feel, okay, I have clothes that look good on camera and that fit my gender identity. Let's talk about the puberty thing because I think that's the most fascinating thing

that again, I wouldn't have thought about, but watching New Guy Tries and then following you, it's like, oh yeah, you are like a 12 year old boy. I am, I literally am a 12 year old boy. Also just the amount of food I'm eating is like double. That's crazy. And are you gaining, like you're probably gaining weight, but not like. Yes, I'm amount of food I'm eating is like double. That's crazy. And are you gaining, like you're probably gaining weight but not like.

Yes, I'm gaining weight and I'm gaining muscle. But the craziest thing is like, I mean, there are advantages and disadvantages to all of this because this is the first time in my life I had to readjust to the idea of gaining weight is not a bad thing. Now I gain weight and dudes are like, fuck yeah. And I'm like, that has never been my mentality in my entire life.

It's always been like- Yeah, that fucks with you, doesn't it? Well, as a woman, it was just always be smaller, be as small as possible. And I remember taking pictures for the first time for the Try Guys like cast launch. And it was a guy who had taken my photos a lot before as a woman.

And I realized I don't know how to pose as a man. And I was like, what do I do? And he was like, oh, just take up space. And I was like, this is crazy. I know, Tori, does that make you want to smash your face against something? I was like, all of posing as a woman, everything I learned in my sorority

was about angles to make yourself look smaller. And I was like- Hide your stomach, hide your arms. Hide everything. And I was like, what am I supposed to do? And he said, just like, take up space. Is he a straight guy? Yeah. Yeah, OK.

Yeah. But it's true. That is what male posing is. Well, and, god, we've talked on the show so much about this. And this is like everything I talk about. You're exactly right. Where it is, you know, for men, it's make more money. It's be bigger. It's, you're exactly right, where it is, you know, for men it's make more money,

it's be bigger, it's, you know, dream your big dreams. Although that's not how we talk about it for men. And then like for women, it's like shrink. And even like this spending, right? It's like men are, the financial advice for men is like make more money, invest in the stock market. The advice for women is like stop spending money on lattes. Right?

That's so true. So again, I wrote a whole book about it. I will send you the book if you don't have it. Yes, I don't, I'd love it. Oh, I had a copy at my hotel, I should have brought it for you. But like, that's the whole thing is like, expand, be, you know, be bigger, badder, better.

And for women, it's like, shrink. And hey, even if you're a woman who's making all that money, pretend you're not. Exactly. Oh, you cannot own it. Because it's going to intimidate somebody. You cannot own it. Can we maybe talk about that for a little bit? What are the narratives now that the patriarchy systemic oppression that you're having to

do with, like the take up space one, that you wouldn't have maybe thought about or considered. When we come back, Ash answers my question about how he navigates new gender dynamics as well as the emotional costs of being queer and trans. Stay tuned. I mean, what sucks is that like there's a big difference between being a trans man and a trans woman. Like trans women are so much more visible and susceptible to violence because of that. And there's a lot of things post transition that I'm benefiting from the patriarchy for the first time of just like safety. I could bike home. I could walk home. My girlfriend is four inches taller than me. And if I'm with her, people leave us alone,

which is hilarious. Because she's the one who's gonna beat you up, not me. But yet there's all these things now that the amount of energy I have back also in just not needing the amount of beauty products that I did before, not needing, you asked me before this, do you have a good side? I'm like, not anymore, really.

You know, like, and I don't know if that's just a facet of, I don't know, just less as expected of men. Even before this, I was like, oh, I'm kind of shiny right now, which I know I'm gonna look at and be like, shit, I'm shiny, but it's not. But it also doesn't matter. But it's, it also just, I won't be judged the same way as a man for that, you know?

And like, that's, but a woman would be like, what is she doing? Why why didn't she know that and so I thought about like reapplying my lipstick before I came for this interview I'm like, well fuck it. Yeah The angel city of seagame, you know wild thing. Yeah. Yes. I love wild thing. No Emma the founders Yeah, so she flew me out which was so cool. We got to be in this box, and it's like, it's all lesbians. And so I showed up and I was like, I thought about doing a full face of makeup, I literally called my boyfriend, I was like,

oh my God, it's so freeing, I just get to show up. I don't have to put on makeup if I don't want to, because it doesn't really fucking matter, I don't have to perform my gender. Exactly, and that's the thing of, and the thing that's annoying too is like, I remember part of performing gender as a woman too is to be treated better.

Like I remember going into stores, even when I had money, you know, very pretty woman, where it's like, if I don't look the part, they're not gonna treat me that way. And so like, there's not really the, I mean, sure. Like you can't look terrible. Yeah. But not in the same, you don't get scrutinized at all

in the same way. So like, I luckily am reaping a lot of those benefits. It's infuriating because I have the lived experience of being a woman for 30 years. I think for trans women or non-binary people or non-gender conforming people, there isn't that same privilege that a lot of trans men get to enjoy just by the fact that testosterone is such a strong hormone

and like makes most trans people, most trans men look cis after a certain point in time, you know? Yeah. Are you hornier? Yes. I figured if you wrote it for puberty, it's the acne, it's the body hair, it's everything. It's hungry, horny, sweaty. I literally have to change my sheets like four times a week now because I'm sweating so much.

And it's like, even that, the extra cost of like running. Laundry, yeah. Laundry. The electricity, sure, sure. I didn't have to wear deodorant before. I like just never, I know. Oh my God, all I do is sweat. Yep, and now I have to wear deodorant before. I like just never, I know. I got all I do is sweat.

Yep. And now I have to wear deodorant. So what's that next year? Like $10 a year. Actually no deodorant is expensive as fuck. If you get like non-aluminum deodorant. And if you're buying a lot of the male deodorant. Cause I wear male, male, Jesus Christ.

I wear male. Why is it so hard to say male deodorant? I feel like I'm doing a Southern accent. I don't use female deodorant. Oh, Jesus Christ. I wear male, why is it so hard to say male deodorant? I feel like I'm doing a Southern accent. I don't use female deodorant, women's deodorant. I'm putting that in quotes because it's like 20% more expensive. I don't need to smell like a meadow, I'm okay. And for razors and for all the like.

Yeah, it's the pink tax. But I think, yeah, so there are pros and cons to both of it and I'm trying to enjoy, so there are pros and cons to both of it, and I'm trying to enjoy the things that are pros because the cons are just horrendous. But you know. We kind of talked about this, but outside of the monetary costs, what for you also felt like a cost?

Of being trans or of not being trans or of? Both, the emotional, the physical, all of those. I don't want to just say the... Here's the thing. There's a lot of bummers of not just transness but queerness early on. This is my new theory and I wonder what you think about it. I feel like queer people go through a lot more earlier in their life and have a lot more of the traumatic experiences earlier. But I'm finding that my queer friends now are not having

like the traditional midlife crisis that my straight friends are. Because at some point you're going to have to question, what are you doing? And for my straight friends now, their kids are older, they're having the traditional, I'm to question what are you doing? And for my straight friends, now it's their kids are older, they're having the traditional I'm 40, what's going on? Whereas like all my queer friends are like, oh, I've been having that.

Right, that's what my entire life. You have to fight for, when you have to fight so early for who you are, there's the nice benefit is that once you've done it, you've done it. And so you put in a lot of this, you put in a lot of this work early. And, you know, I'm at a point now where my therapist was

like, we don't have to do therapy anymore, just maintenance because I did so much therapy. And so I think those are always the, there's always a flip side to the con. I think the cost feels like I have to pay a price in blood, in energy, in time, in money, in order to be myself. But the positive of it is that I paid that cost already, and now I get to just like ride free. Yeah, exactly. Well, I think if you've had to reckon with your identity

constantly for your entire life, and then you do finally figure out, yeah, this is me, this feels good. If somebody's never had to do that, yeah, it comes full force when shit gets real. Yes, and usually it's, yeah, it's just like, oh, fuck, and you almost's, yeah, it's just like, oh, fuck. And you almost don't know where to start, where it's like, oh, I'm kind of towards

the end of this journey now. I mean, life always changes and things evolve, but like, I do think at my age, I feel so secure in who I am now, which is great. And that's what we want everybody to feel. That's what we live. I hope that for you, dear listener. What's something about the care you decided on

that you wish you had known about sooner? Ooh. Ah. Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch me is like, I didn't like the recovery time. Like, that's huge. Recovery time. And I think there's ways to like. So one of the things, top surgery, it's not just the pre stuff, but the post stuff you have to have like in order to get better results. I spent like a hundred dollars on this medical compression

shirt. And then what I didn't realize is that you have to change it. And so I spent another hundred dollars and I had to get this special pillow. And so it's like, just the cost of maintenance afterward was really expensive. Right, you think, okay, I'm gonna get surgery, and then I gotta recover for the two weeks or whatever,

and then I'm done. No, then it's another $1,000 after surgery on all of those things, and on silicone scar tape, and it's all medical grade, and you don't wanna skim then, because you already had the fucking surgery. But I do wish that I had known there's a lot of resources that like trans people have like share that stuff with each other, whether it's knowledge or unused stuff or like lightly

used stuff so that people don't have to like pay for that stuff. I think the biggest thing what do I wish I had known? I wish I just had somebody to go through it with me more. And make me teary. Yeah. You know, like. Yeah, it had to feel very isolating. Yeah, and it is, it's very like, I got my surgery, my marriage was falling apart during that.

That's so hard. And so it was like like literally taking care of myself in that, you know. Life's hard already, you know, having somebody to depend on yet again. And not having that care, it was hard. But it's like, I think, and maybe the thing that I wish that I knew was to not deal with the shame as much

while I was going through it of like, man, I have to put this on a credit card or man, I have to, it's like, you know what? You can pay that back, take care of yourself. Like there's no need, I wish I didn't go through that shame twice. It was already hard enough. And then for me to be feeling like,

because you listen to podcasts or you listen to money advice and everybody's telling you something else, but that's not your lived experience. And so sometimes debt can be a tool. Sometimes it can be a thing that helps you, you know, and it'll get you through a period. The average person has to go into debt in order to live your life. If you don't ever have to go into debt, you come from generational wealth. Exactly. Like, you got to typically go into debt, you come from generational wealth. Exactly.

You got to typically go into debt to go to college. You got to go into, like, I had to take out a car loan to get my first car. That's the reality. Yeah, most people don't live life paying things in cash. No, if you want to level up, like, okay, you want to be a homeowner. Are you paying that in cash? No.

Most likely no. Especially not in LA Seattle, pick an expensive city. I don't even think of mortgages and student loan as debt because I'm like, that's just a fact of life. Right. I'm thinking just like credit card debt. But it's like all of it, yeah, is in order to that's something that I wish that I knew is like, it's okay to get the care you need, even if it seems excessive, because as long

as it's right for you, you know what you need more than other people do. Yeah, and again, define excessive. Yeah, exactly, that's true. It's in a patriarchal world with a gender binary. None of this, this is all excessive by that standard. And again, for listeners, I'm putting that in massive air quotes,

but yeah, none of this feels necessary, but it's like, of course it is. Well, and that's what I think is also interesting, is that for a lot of people who are listening, who maybe don't know a trans person directly or are finding it hard to understand why something would be so necessary, like, I think you can think of it even as much as like, you know when you get a bad haircut?

Yeah. And it's like like holy fuck. I look terrible All you can think about is growing out your hair or I will now spend any amount of money to get this corrected Because it just doesn't look like you and it's fucking up your whole day. Yeah, that's like one one Thousand of what it feels like but it's like you have felt gender dysphoria or some kind of dysphoria about how you feel on the inside and how your presentation is. Like, imagine wearing the wrong foundation color every day and knowing it's the wrong color and being like, oh, there's something I can do to fix it,

but it's going to cost something. And so, I think that's where we can have a little bit of grace for each other. And it's made me have a lot of grace also just for cis people who I think I grew up with a lot of judgment because of how I was raised too for women who got surgery or women who wanted to wear more makeup. Because, you know, we also we just make things harder for each other too. It's like it's hard enough to be a woman, but it's like, there's a right way to be a woman or a right way to be a man. And now, including with cis people, I'm just like,

if it makes you happy, more power to you. Yeah. Do it. Totally. Just cause I wouldn't do it, doesn't mean that you shouldn't. Right. And I think as long as you're not hurting anybody, it's like, it's your body, it's your life. Literally. And that's the line for everything. Like my-

I do want people to be honest about it though. That is a pet peeve of mine. What do you mean? How much controversy do I want to stir? As someone who is in a curvy body, thinness is glorified on a good day, yet alone right now. Like, Ozempic, Wigovia, whatever, it's crazy.

There have been a lot of people, especially recently, who are like, oh yeah, diet, exercise, lifestyle changes. I drink water, so no you don't, bitch. And they've been Ozempicking for a year. And I'm like, that's fine, but tell me that. Especially if you've made your whole brand about your body or about being in the plus size community. Like, I need you to be honest about it.

Same thing with like, the Kardashians being like, oh yeah, well, again, I just work out, eat well. No, I'm like, no, you have a shit ton of filler and you've done whatever you had to do and like be honest about it though. For real, there was one episode of the Kardashians that I remember where it was, I think it was Kylie saying something about

not denying her filler. And one of the other sisters was like, you have filler, you have to say it. She has a very different face. Exactly. And that's fine, but she needs to be honest about it. Well, and you also have to be honest with people just so that, like, if somebody wants that,

you can pay for it, but you have to know the cost, versus like, thinking that that's natural. Well, and especially if you're're selling then a whole brand of, hey, you can look like me. Yeah. Yeah. It's false advertising. It's false advertising. You're making billions of dollars off of lip kits. Like, sorry.

And you know what? Men are in some ways more open about that stuff in this way that I find kind of strange because... It's kind of about money too. It's the same way. Like men are allowed to talk about pursuing money, they're allowed to talk about how much money they've brought in. And they're also allowed to pursue or talk about what they've spent on supplements or trainers or-

Oh, biohacking? Yeah, or their own testosterone that they're taking as cis men. Like it's this weird double standard where it's like, women are supposed to keep all of that, I don't know, women, you're just supposed to pretend that you like popped out of the fucking womb. Yeah, exactly.

And it's like, no, you can talk about how much things cost. Oh, haircuts is another thing that I, for so long, I made fun of men for how cheap their haircuts were, but what I didn't realize is how often you need to get them, so I would like to apologize to the men, because I was like, you spent $20 on a... Well, by the way, it's not $20 anymore, it's like $50, so it's not that different.

It was literally just giving me my partnership the other way. He called me and he was like, my haircut was really expensive. And then immediately before I could take a breath, thank God, he was like, I know they're not as expensive as women's haircuts. I know you're there for five hours. I know that, however. It is, but the thing is,

you don't need your haircut as often. As a woman, I would probably get my haircut, I would wait longer than I should. I do the same thing. I would do maybe four or five times a year. But as a man, it's not even. Six weeks is like, I would do maybe four or five times a year, but like, as a man, six weeks, not even, six weeks is like, if your hair grows fast, it's a,

you look like a completely different person. Well, and your hair's probably growing faster on T, too. Yeah, it is, everything. Yeah, I can think about that. Yeah, so you're in a chair a lot to get your hair cut. I am, I'm going on Friday. Fun! I'm gonna learn how to cut my own hair.

At some point. Okay. Yeah. Your hair looks great. Thank you. Fun. I'm gonna learn how to cut my own hair. At some point. Okay. Yeah. Your hair looks great. Thank you. When I think about anybody from a marginalized community, whether you're a woman, a person of color, a trans person, a queer person,

you just existing then becomes activism. Yeah. Yeah. And you're almost, whether you want to or not, then forced to kind of be a representation of that community. Yeah, and have stances on things. Yes, or even just come on a podcast and talk about it, which I'm very thankful for, but like...

That's my choice, though. I do this... The reason that I do this specifically, the reason that I do New Guy Tries and put myself out there publicly as a trans person is partially because I believe with all my heart that other trans people shouldn't have to do that. My intersection of my work, my voice, my natural storytelling has led me to this position where it's like, you know what?

I'm actually pretty comfortable being a trans person, talking about it, and I'm happy to do that and happy to serve my community in that way, I think it's completely unfair that that's the extra weight or burden for a lot of trans people. And it's why a lot of trans people stay stealth. Something that I couldn't understand before was why you would want to stay stealth, and it's just because you don't want to deal with all the bullshit.

Well, and also the threat to your life for the safety concerns. But it's also like, isn't it just, again, we talk about this a lot, but you showing up as the best, baddest, fullest version of yourself as an act of protest. It is, and that's what I- Beyond doing anything else.

That's what I love about your whole ethos too, of get rich to fuck the patriarchy. Because it's so true of like, I think that the best thing that we can all in marginalized communities do for each other is to make our money, keep ourselves safe, and then turn back around and give back. Because nothing bad happens when marginalized communities have more money.

Yeah, no, literally no. And I mean, one of my favorite studies ever was that they found in like disadvantaged, especially third world countries, the most effective way. The reason microfinancing is so effective is because you give it to women and women will immediately reinvest it in their community, whereas you give it to women and women will immediately reinvest it in their community. Whereas you give it to men and they invest in themselves. And I think that's the same is true

for marginalized communities is like, we know how hard it is to even be where we are. And so I don't know any marginalized person who doesn't turn around and give back. And yet how many billionaires don't give any money, donate any money, don't give a shit, you know? Like... Well, and again, feel like that money is theirs,

and they earned it. And so, how dare you come and take it from me? Yeah. And cry on Fox News about it. Give me a start. I'm so over it. I'll say it again for the people in the back. Nothing bad happens when marginalized communities have money. When we come back, we're finishing our conversation with Ash,

including how to be more supportive of your trans and queer friends and partners, and of course a little talk about the Try Guys, because it's me. We'll see you on the other side. I'm also thinking about if someone is listening who has a partner or a person in their life who is transitioning, how can they be supportive, be champions for their loved one? Yeah, I mean, there's things even like, A, just listen to people. B, they're like the active care of, I'm thinking post-surgery, like my community was so amazing in like bringing me food, bringing me soup,

bringing me all the stuff so I didn't have to just door dash all of that. Yeah, no, literally. And I love that. Like, I think there's a lot of stigma. Another thing like with grief, with when my dad was in the hospital and we were in COVID and we couldn't stay in our family house, like, the expenses were getting so much just to keep ourselves fed

while I'm trying to take care of my dad. And I remember just asking, because everyone was like, what can we do, what can we do? And finally, at one point, everyone was like, what can we do, what can we do? And finally, at one point I was like, just send money. And like, it was something that, you know, because I grew up in a more like, especially I went to Pepperdine, there were a lot of people who were like affluent

and that's very taboo. Isn't Pepperdine a Catholic school? It's a Church of Christ. So it's like really Christian. I was going to say, you and I should talk about that, because I went to 18 years of Catholic school. Yeah, well, I went to Seventh-day Adventist school for like my whole life too, and then went to-

Buddy! Yeah, it's a lot of religious, and the cost of religious trauma. Yeah, it was something where I think wealthy people, again, like they have these weird thoughts about money or what's gauche or what's not, but it's like, you know what you need, and that was the most help,

with all the money that people just sent or all the like, people sent door dash credits, like... Do that. If you know your trans friend is having surgery. And by the way, you can also, if you're listening to this episode, sometimes like, even with grief or with transness, it's the things that people do without you asking that are the most meaningful. And you know now now listening to this,

that there is a cost to transness that you may not have considered before. Just fucking Venmo your friend some money if you have some money and be like, I hope you're doing well, here's dinner on me. And like, that's just a friend thing anyway, but like don't discount, I think sometimes we also live in a culture

where we're trying to figure out what to do besides the money, but sometimes it's just about the money. Just help someone out if you have the means. If you don't, then there's a million other things that you can do, and listening is the biggest one. Or driving your friend to and from surgery, or going from therapy, whatever. For one surgery, I had, even just from my egg freezing,

it was like my partner was gone. And so even for that, it's like, oh yeah, one of my friends drove me after that because I technically had had, like, even though the anesthesia wasn't like full generalized anesthesia, you can't drive home. But I'm like, that's $60 right there. And so exactly, my friend just driving me, like saving me $60, you know? Or, hey, I'm taking you to whatever clothing store

and I don't know, a sweater's on me or a top's on me. Or even just, okay, I don't have the money, let's go to the mall. I will tell you what looks good on you and what doesn't. Literally, exactly, which is helpful, having someone there or, hey, my boyfriend is not wearing these. I've had people literally be like, my boyfriend's not wearing these shirts anymore.

Do you want them? And be like, fuck yeah. Absolutely. So there's like so much that you can do that, oh, another cost that I didn't put in here is shoes specifically. My feet got bigger. And I had curated my whole life. Well, luckily I had the immigrant mentality

of always buying my shoes a little bit bigger, even post puberty, because I was like, I'm gonna grow into them. And thank God I did, because I would say half of my shoes that were too big for me, that I was pissed that I bought them too big for me, now fit me. Boom. The stuff you know now.

Now I know. Okay, so one of my things I think about all the time Now fit me. Now fit me. Boom. The stuff you know now. Yep, now I know. Okay, so one of my things I think about all the time that I've had non-binary friends in my life or trans people in my life be really, really gracious about, and I know you're really gracious, which is one of my favorite things about you. Let's say I mispronounce you.

Oh yeah, yeah. Let's say I dead name you by accident. How should I handle that? Because I think there's an immediate, I remember the first time I did it, I felt like crawling in a hole. Literally, I felt so bad. And then I was like,

I can never speak to this person again. And the advice I got was just acknowledge it, pronoun them the correct way, and then move on. Is that right? Yes, it's literally just, and my mom does it. And we left that in New Guy Tries. That was my favorite. Oh, it's going to make me so teary.

Your mother was this, please everybody go watch. I'm already crying. Your mother was the sweetest thing. And yeah, I think probably, I actually read in the comments, is this true that Tagalo does not? Yes. OK. She's been misgendering me my whole life. Yeah, so it's not, but it's also probably confusing.

But she was so gracious and every time you were so patient with her and every time you corrected her, she just went, oh yes, he. Yep, and that's it. That's all you have to do. If somebody misgenders you or if you say their dead name, just go, oh shit, sorry,

and then say the right thing and then move on. Yeah, don't make it a big deal. The other thing though that I will find that's been happening more often is sometimes people will misgender me around other people. And like say we're in a group, a kindness that you can pay to your trans friend is stepping in for them

so that I don't always have to do it. Yeah. Because a lot of times I just let it go because it's like, especially if I know it's not with mal intent, I'm just like, I'll let it go. It doesn't bother me. Yeah. Or it doesn't bother me as much as it used to.

But it is always really nice with if I'm in a group and someone slips up and a friend is like, by the way, you don't also have to do it in front of the friend, the whole group or do it immediately. Right. But I've had friends be like, oh, hey, by the way, Ash is using new pronouns now. You know?

And that just like helps take the burden off of, so that I get to just be a person instead of the trans person. Yeah, I think that's great advice. And it's also to, again, and this is the thing I learned, it's like not making a huge deal out of it, because then that puts the pressure on you to like go, no, no, no, it's fine.

Even if it's not fine. It's like, say you had friends who were twins and you said the wrong name, you wouldn't be like, oh my God, I'm so fucking sorry. I can't believe I did that. Or even the dog, you see the dog and you're like, oh, she's so cute. Oh, it's a he.

Oh, sorry, it's a he. Do it the same as you do with dogs. And it's so funny because we actually do those things a lot in our lives, same with babies. That's the thing where I don't understand how people, again, nobody listened to this podcast as an issue with gender, but the amount of people who are just like, it breaks their brain,

but yeah, baby, dog. You do it all the time. You do it all the time. Even, oh, I saw a headline today about Ted Cruz. Oh, the Ted Cruz one? That was amazing. Oh, God, that made me so good. It was like, Raphael Edward Cruz, who goes by Ted, passes a bill to stop people from using

preferred names and pronouns. What an idiot. That's how we need headlines written. I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about your work with the Try Guys. I don't know if you know this, I've been a Try Guys watcher for a very, very long time. No, I didn't.

Oh yeah, big, big fan. And then I did- Since Buzzfeed? Oh yeah. Okay. Well, no, actually here's the deal. I went to their, like it was just when they had launched the new channel. Oh yeah, okay. I discovered them for the first time and then went back and watched them.

Oh, I'm a second try subscriber. Yeah, hell yeah. I've done, I've done Eat the Menu with Keith. I don't know if you know this. No, I didn't know that. Part two of Cheesecake Factory. I was on the big one. Oh, fuck yeah.

It was a very full circle moment for me that I manifested. Yeah. It was very exciting. You manifest a lot and you need to teach me about that. Oh, I will teach you. Let's go out to dinner, I'll teach you. No, but I have loved their work

and it was such a cool surprise to see you and everybody else in the cast. Can you talk a little bit about what that process was like, joining, especially with everything that they've been going through over the past couple of years? But then also, is it something that you went into going, I know I'm going to talk about being trans, or did that come along naturally?

I mean, actually, so I'm just friends with Zach and Keith, you know, before any of us were famous. Yeah, we were all friends at BuzzFeed. Actually, so I'm just friends with Zach and Keith, before any of us were famous. Yeah, we were all friends at Buzzfeed. And so it was very natural. We were actually just catching up over Hotpot and Zach was asking about my transition, like, how's it going?

And I think a lot of people are like, expecting it to be more traumatic than it is. And I was like, it's actually pretty funny. And he was like, what are you talking about? I was just telling him all this shit that's been happening that's like, there's a lot of funny stuff that happens. And then as the more we talked about,

he's like, that's like a show. We should do that. And I was like, oh, I would totally do that. And- Well, even like you talk about like, how do I, like, do we handshake? Do we hug? Do we, yeah, that I still can't get right.

I was just like, how do I perform now being a man? Just hug everyone. Great. I was even, I was thinking about it. Like today I was like, okay. Should we hug? Should we go and hug? Are we gonna, I don't know.

What is the male-female interaction? Right, but knowing again, like. It's fine. It's fine. But it's so like, so yeah, it actually happened really naturally and organically. But it's been amazing because by the way, I truly believe, and this is not just because I'm on second try now,

like part of the reason that it's so important to also, if you can financially support the ventures of the people who are doing stuff, is because I have tried to sell versions of my show or of myself that would never have made it to network. Because and even now, I know there's a show that I want to take out that's like about my life as a trans man, but it's just a sitcom. But I know no one's going to touch that right now because they don't want to be embroiled in any of the controversy.

I've pitched TV shows about like, hey, we're going to talk about money, but through a feminist lens. They're like, feminist, no, we don't want to. How are we going to get Dove to like get on board with that? Literally. Dove probably would be fine. No, but like I just I just got asked to speak somewhere. This is the first time this has happened actually in this in these terms. But literally, I, my speaking manager got a message and she sent it to me yesterday. And it was like, we just want to make sure, because this is a corporate environment,

that there's not going to be anything political and that it's not, like, Tory's not going to curse. And I'm like, I can take the cursing now, that's fine. I've been asked to do that before. But like... Political, my life also is called... The pod financial feminist. Thank you, Ash.

That's the thing I'm like, okay, so, you know, I have to go to legal, my legal team and be like, okay, if I say the word systemic oppression, am I not getting paid? Yeah, no, for real. Cause this is all we talk about is like, money is inherently political. Like, I'm sorry, I can't.

And that's not just me just trying to bring politics. It's like, you have to talk about that. Yes, yes. And so yeah, TV shows aren't getting made. You It's like, you have to talk about that. Yes, yes. And so, yeah, TV shows aren't getting made. You're exactly right. You have to support the kind of media you want to see. And that's why it's like Second Try. And I'm really happy that, like, our show was, like,

the number one driver of subscribers to Second Try. Was it really? Yeah. Oh, that's lovely. Which was great. And because of that, we get to make a season two. I'm filming season two right now. And that's directly because people are subscribing,

which allows us to keep paying for these, to pay for these kinds of shows. And like, I just cannot tell you, as someone who has also worked in Hollywood for 10 years on the traditional side, this just will not, would not have ever gotten made. And I got to make it. Part of the reason that I love it so much

and I'm so proud of it, and I also think that it's having the impact it's having, is because I actually got to make it, part of the reason that I love it so much and I'm so proud of it, and I also think that it's having the impact it's having, is because I actually got to make it without any voices trying to change me. And even like, honestly, it's not that Zach and Keith, like I love Zach, he had a moment where he was like, he kind of had all these like different thoughts, and he came back to me himself and was like,

actually, you know what, the reason we want you to make this show is because I want you to make the show you want to make, and he just back to me himself and was like, actually, you know what, the reason we want you to make this show is because I want you to make the show you want to make. And he just stepped back. And that would not... As if I couldn't respect that man more. That's fantastic. For real.

Know that they are the allies that they are saying that they are. And it's so cool too that like, the coolest thing too is like, when I get to make something that is about my identity, but not the whole reason like of it, like this show is just as much about me being goofy and me being dumb as it is about me being trans.

You got your little pipe. You got your fire set. Yeah, I got my whole, and it gets dumber this season, friends. It's gonna get so much dumber. It's so dumb. But like getting to do that too is amazing. And. But, like, getting to do that, too, is amazing. And, you know, this... To be able to get paid while doing that is, like, such a gift.

So, support people when you can. Support creators. Support trans creators specifically. Support the people who support them. Like, there's a lot of ways that... In a place where we feel like, what the fuck are we all doing right now? How can we help? Money talks. Look at what's happening with fucking Target

and with all of these companies. It's like your money or the absence of your money absolutely changes things, probably faster than almost anything else in this world. Literally. Like faster than someone standing in Congress or bills or anything like that. It's your money that's going to get people to pay attention.

I think one of my other favorite parts about that show was you having conversations with men and them meeting you tap or tap with vulnerability. It was so beautiful because I don't think there's a lot of depictions, nor is there a lot in reality, honestly, of like, especially straight men, like having conversations about what it means to be a man or how they're trying to change, like, you know, how their dad handled masculinity generation. So what did you take from those conversations? I mean, I came in with, it was like a science experiment in that I came in with one thesis and it kind of was torn apart or at least changed in that I thought I had an idea of what manhood was. And I-

What did you think it was? I don't know. I think I thought it was a little bit more broad and external than it is. And I thought that men didn't have or go as deep with their feelings, but now I just realized they don't have the space to. Like the thing that patriarchy denies them

is the space to have those conversations. Whereas almost all women- Patriarchy hurts men as much as it hurts women. Totally. Sometimes more. I think that women have, because of the position that women hold in patriarchy, have had to examine their role in society and know exactly where they fit and who they are.

Whereas men, the disadvantage of getting a lot of things that you're not aware of your privilege is that you're also not given a space or need to examine those things. And so half the guys, the show kind of became a weird Trojan horse for like cis men to talk about their masculinity. It's not like a group therapy session. Literally all of them after, and I feel so much closer to them after doing that show, but like after,

and my producer kept being like, I've worked with Miles for five years, he's never said anything like that. Or I've worked with Zach. Did Nick produce it? Yeah, Nick did. And it's like going through all of that and just consistently finding,

and every guy was like, you know what? I have either never thought about that or I've thought about that, but I've never known who to talk to about it. And then it was just like, oh, the guys are just talking amongst themselves in the way that I'm like, oh, that's the gift of like girlhood that I can give you.

Of like chatting and talking and being there for each other emotionally because we all have something to offer each other. And like, what I learned from guys is that they have play so deeply ingrained in them in a way that women are not taught the same way, mostly because we're like from the beginning taught that you have to just like take care of business

and take care of the house and take care of everything. There's not really time to play. And hold everybody's emotions for them. Yes, exactly. Whereas like a big part of really time to play. And hold everybody's emotions for them. Yes, exactly. Whereas like a big part of boyhood is play. Yeah. I wish I could remember who said it,

but somebody talked about how male friendships are side to side versus female friendships are face to face. Jane Fonda. Is it really Jane Fonda? And I love that quote because it is true. It's like, again, I'm dating a straight man and the amount of times it's like, oh, how's this friend?

And he's like, oh, he's fine. Oh, how's his girlfriend? I don't know. I don't know. What do you mean you don't know? You spent three hours with him. Oh, we watched soccer. Oh, great.

Well, fucking hell. Re-watching When Harry Met Sally now, I can so clearly see it's like every time Jess and Harry are hanging out, they're doing an activity. They're side by side watching a game, usually sports or hitting a ball or something. Whereas like Sally with her friends. I mean literally bars.

Yes. Right, you're at a bar, you're side to side. Whereas Sally with her friends, they're looking at each other and they're just having conversations. Well and men's hanging out is usually activity based. It has to be activity based. Yeah.

Which is like. Women is like, give me a glass bottle of wine and it's a yap sesh. Yeah, for me, it was, I remember my first male hang. We went rock climbing and I was just like, when are we gonna start talking? Like, you know, when does, I didn't understand what was going on.

When does the yap start? Well, the yap started actually, once he started climbing, he was like, we had been talking about nothing and then he starts climbing and he's like, I don't know, man, I just don't know if I'm capable of finding love. And I was like, holding him up like belaying. Literally both emotional and physical.

I was like, what? Like the way men want to talk about those things, they just don't have the same place or permission to talk about them. Yeah. Let's talk about those things. They just don't have the same place or permission to talk about them. Yeah. Let's talk about trans joy. Yeah. How do we find it? How do we celebrate it?

What does it mean to you? Just be yourself. The thing that sucks about what's happening to trans people right now is that trans people are just people, just like everyone else is, and they're just trying to be happy and just trying to have fun. And the more I can remember,

like something I'm doing as a creative is not putting the burden of responsibility of carrying the entire trans community on me first. Like I'm thinking first as a creative of like, what makes Ash happy? Like what makes me laugh? What are the types of things I wanna do? And I can't erase the fact that I'm trans,

so that's going to be part of it anyway. And it's been so much more of a joyful experience. And like season two, by the way, I thought we were in a post, like, you know, gender era. We're heading towards that, especially. Our show had come out and what's the Will Ferrell doc? I can't, I think. Will and Harper. Will and Harper came out and was getting good acclaim.

And then the election happened, it was just like, fuck, here we go back again. And we were trying to decide, I was like, oh my God, do we have to change season two? Like, season two was gonna be about boys and their toys and it was supposed to be really fun and silly. And then I was like, do we have to do like a big protest thing or whatever? And I was like, no, fuck no.

Well, you living as trans again is about to protest. And season two is about boys and their toys and it's so silly and it's so me. is about boys and their toys, and it's so silly, and it's so me, and yet it still touches even more than it did before on, like, trans identity. And I think that's, to me, what trans joy is, of getting to be myself, getting the privilege of just being human without having my identity,

of being trans having to be the first thing about me. Yeah. My last question for you. Yeah. Advice for people listening who don't feel like their gender identity suits them or who are struggling trying to figure out what their path forward is. I will give you the advice

that my $300 session therapist did for free. Amazing! Yes, here you go, free advice. Is follow your joy. So I was starting to go through this point of, I don't know if I want to cut my hair, I don't know if I want to do this, I don't know, and like having these... Because it felt like a commitment?

Yes, having these obsessive thoughts of just, is it the right thing or not? And like, you know, kind of taking too many steps ahead. And she was like, well, does it make you happy? And then I was like, yeah. And she's like, okay, then do that. And then she's like, and then just keep doing what makes you happy. Which was a way to think about gender that I hadn't thought of before, of like, it's a little bit of that, like,

I think it's in Frozen 2 where they say, like, just do the next right thing, of like, with gender sometimes we feel like we have to arrive at this place where you can confidently say to everybody what your pronouns are, exactly how you feel, and how long you felt it. Whereas like, the truth is, does it make you happy to do this? Even if it's outside of what you've traditionally been told that men or women or non-binary people

are supposed to do or look like, then do that. And like, eventually you land where you're supposed to be. So there you go. That was like a thousand dollars worth of advice for free. Ash, thank you for your vulnerability. Yes. Thank you for your work. Plug away my friend.

Oh, season two of New Guy Tries is coming out in the coming months. You can go back in the meantime and go to secondtry.tv to watch the whole first season and help support the places and the people who make the type of media that you want to happen. And also I have a sub stack, ITS, Ashley Perez, Ashley with no E, I'm dead naming myself because I don't want to change all my handles. .substack.com.

And yeah, see you later internet. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much to Ash for joining us. You can find their incredible series, New Guy Tries, on Second Try TV. I am a subscriber. If you've been a longtime listener of the show, you know how much I love everything the Try Guys do.

And this is the most thoughtful show. I laugh, I cry. He also just came and spoke to us internally at her first 100k to our team. We've gotten to know each other a little bit. He's just one of the kindest people and also very focused on giving this education in a way that doesn't feel intimidating, that doesn't feel like a gotcha moment. And you see this in New Guy Tries 2. One of my favorite moments is when his mother actually keeps misgendering him and there's

no argument, there's no fight. She's quick to correct herself, but it's just this beautiful version of how all of these conversations and all of this sometimes feels new or sometimes feels intimidating, but it's just really beautiful. And it's really about relationships and about making people feel seen and loved and heard. Thank you so much for joining us. This episode is one that needs to be shared. I know we talk

about sharing the show all the time. Thank you for your support. But this is one that I need you to share far and wide. Trans people are under attack right now. Trans people do not feel safe in America and every country, but especially right now in the United States. And I think it's really important to have these conversations to show that transgender people are people too. They just want to feel safe. So please amplify this episode, share it with the people in your life, share it on social media. It's an incredible conversation. Thank you as always for being here. We'll see you back here very soon. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast.

For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com. If you're confused about your personal finances and you're wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com slash quiz for a free personalized money plan. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamesha Grant. Research by Sarah Shortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf.

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