Financial Feminist - 244. JVN on Queer Joy, Money Trauma, and The Financial Wake Up Call That Changed Everything

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

What happens when a cultural icon known for spreading joy and glam realness opens up about their most personal financial struggles? In this episode, I sit down with the one and only Jonathan Van Ness aka JVN for a raw, vulnerable, and hilarious conversation about money trauma, impulse spending, and the financial wake-up call that changed everything. From their first money memory at Bath & Body Works to navigating money as a public figure living with HIV, JVN shares how they went from financial avoidance to agency—with a little help from our past conversations. We dive deep into how queer joy is not just resistance, but a vital tool for survival, why financial literacy is crucial for marginalized communities, and what it really takes to heal your relationship with money. Plus, you'll hear Jonathan’s tips for luxury bag resale (you'll want to take notes), the emotional weight of growing up without financial guidance, and how they've transformed their entire financial life, mindset, and self-worth. Tune in! JVN’s links: Website: https://jonathanvanness.com/ Hot & Healed tour: https://jonathanvanness.com/tour/    Book: Let Them Stare: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/let-them-stare-jonathan-van-nessjulie-murphy? variant=43252198768674   Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/jvn-money-trauma-financial-healing/ Looking for accountability, live coaching, and deeper financial education? Check out our exclusive community! Join the $100K Club: https://herfirst100k.com/100k-pod   Our favorite travel and cash-back credit cards, plus other financial resources: https://herfirst100k.com/tools Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Special thanks to our sponsors: Squarespace Go to www.squarespace.com/FFPOD to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase. Indeed Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com/FFPOD. Rocket Money Stop wasting money on things you don’t use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com/FFPOD. Quince For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince. Go to Quince.com/FFPOD for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Netsuite If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, download the free e-book Navigating Global Trade: 3 Insights for Leaders at NetSuite.com/FFPOD. Saily Get an exclusive 15% discount on Saily eSIM data plans! Go to Saily.com/FFPOD download the Saily app and use code 'FFPOD' at checkout. Masterclass Get 15% off any annual membership at Masterclass.com/FFPOD. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If you're someone who's been ignoring your money and expecting your financial problems to just solve themselves, this episode is for you. We are talking today to the iconic Jonathan Van Ness. Whether I made like $40,000 a year or what I've made in these last few years, the impulsivity and like the resistance to budgeting, that was there then and it was there now. We're talking impulse shopping, luxury bags, financial trauma, budgeting breakdowns, and queer joy. And one of the most deeply personal and transparent conversations he's ever given. So like the whole system is really fucked up because the last thing someone should be worrying about is like acquiring their pills. Jonathan and I have a refreshingly honest conversation about personal growth, about healing from money trauma and joy as a form of resistance. This is why I'm so passionate about politics and I talk about it so much in living with HIV is like in my 20s, the HIV social safety net

like saved my life. From their earliest money memories and hints spending all of the money at Bath and Body Works is involved to navigating financial overwhelm at the height of famous success. JVN opens up about how they went from financial avoidance to agency.

I was like eight decisions away from being like episode one of Schitt's Creek, but not tax evasion, just impulse spending. So like you changed my life. They share how my advice, which is kind of fucking insane, changed their entire framework around money and their entire relationship with their personal finances and why it's never too late to get started. Along the way, we're talking luxury bag reselling.

We're talking about surviving the chaos of social media and why financial empowerment is crucial for marginalized communities. I'm so grateful to Jonathan for their transparency in this conversation. And when a guest, especially a prominent guest who we all know and love and watch on our televisions comes on to be transparent about money, it makes all of us a little more willing to be transparent too. Let's get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors.

We love highlighting our incredible sponsors that keep the show free for you to listen, and we're giving you all the deals right up top with some more information later in the episode. This episode of Financial Feminist is sponsored in part by Squarespace, Rocket Money, NetSuite, and SALE. Need a website? Whether it's for a brand, portfolio, or store, Squarespace makes it easy. Head on over to squarespace.com slash FFPOD and use code FF pod for 10% off your first purchase. Stop paying for subscriptions.

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slash disclosures. Jonathan, thanks for being on the show. Tell me why queer joy is so important and how that might relate to money. Ah, what a good question. I think queer joy is so important because we are in a time where we are actively being erased. And I think it's so easy to check out and be like just not involved and not just wanna withdraw from the world around us. And what I learned from this really fierce queen called Gretchen Rubin is, is that when we're like more withdrawn from joy

then we're more likely to be withdrawn from like making the world better. So we really need to like get our joy on so we can like try to get out of this mess. What does that joy look like in practice for you? And I always think about, you know, marginalized groups making money is one of the ways that I get a lot of joy. Like, has that shown up in the same way for you? It has and it hasn't because sometimes I feel like and you literally taught me this.

Like, I've been hosting my podcast for like almost 10 years and you have literally been like One of my most impactful meaningful learn the most impact of my life the most like I literally think about you on a weekly basis Because of everything you taught me and in fact, I literally just did this other financial podcast where I was like I was like well to quote tori dunlap to quote tori dunlap like I like No, seriously, like I the whole I was like well most of what I know about financial literacy is from tori Dunlap, to quote Tory Dunlap, like, no, seriously, the whole, I was like, well, most of what I know about financial literacy is from Tory Dunlap. So that's that. But anyway, for me, the joy looks like my, I love my pet so much and just spending, I'm kind of a homebody. And this might be like surprising for anyone that like knows me, but I'm a total like introverted extrovert. So I really need to like recharge with my

animals, with my husband at home. I love our garden. I'm like obsessed introverted extrovert. So I really need to recharge with my animals, with my husband at home. I love our garden. I'm obsessed with going outside. I'm newly obsessed with Solid Core, which is an investment, but it's for my mental health. So I feel like, yes, queen. And so that's kind of what my joy is looking like at the moment. We always joke that I cry at some point during an episode. And I think you might have the

record of the soonest tears. That was so nice. I really needed it, especially right now. I was actually thinking about this this morning. I think when you're a member of a marginalized group, especially someone who is a public person who has an internet presence, I can't even imagine what your messages and DMs look like, but the incel men have found my account and it's just rough out here. And so one, I really needed to hear that. So thank you. But also, one of the questions I like weirdly wanted

to ask you is, do you feel like it's worse when like Republicans or conservatives are in power versus Biden or Democrats have the presidency? Do you feel like the hate is worse or better? Hard to say. It's crazy because I can't believe that I was on Queer Eye and kind of took off in the first Trump administration and then we had this reprieve and now we're back and that's disorienting or something. But I will tell you this, I saw you post about that and I, my heart broke for you. I will tell you something that Alok told me, my dear friend Alok, and I know that part, you are like so communicative with your base and that's part of like what's

gotten you here and I get that, but you may have gotten to a point where you need to like cut those fucking DMs off. Like, or like, or make some setting where like, they have to follow you or something, like make it a little harder. Like you are at a point where you have reached so many people that allowing that much access, especially if you care and you have a heart,

like what you do on both of those fronts, sometimes like, and that was really hard for me, because I was like, what if like something important or what if there's someone who really needs help or whatever? But you do have to protect yourself. When the impact on your mental health is bigger than what you can offer, like for your well-being,

then you have to limit a little bit of access. And so just for whatever that's worth, you may just need to take a look. Because I mean, they're fucking crazy. They are. I do think as far as like who is in office, I think it's been like to varying degrees, it's all kind of been a cluster,

but I do think lately since Metta re sorted out their abuse guidelines, like their verbal abuse, online abuse and harassment guidelines, it seems worse. And I also think that they always had an uneven way of enforcing those policies. And now they just got rid of some of those policies. So you just like can misgender people and like be like wildly transphobic and abusive. But even when there was when that wasn't the policy, they still let that slide all the time. But then it's like if you speak out against, you know, a certain political thing that you might align with or not align with, they will ban you faster than you can say, wait a minute.

So that's, you know, interest. I do think that social media has become more toxic under the Trump administration for sure. Yeah, we were just talking about joy, you know, and I think that one of the things I consider frequently is how do you find joy amidst absolute chaos? And especially when voices that feel oppressive or that are oppressive feel so loud, you know? Yes. I also forgot one really important thing of how I get joy, which is like my friends. Like, hanging out with my friends is really important. Like FaceTime and my friends. Fortnite, like for my long distance friends,

like we all like Fortnite together. Like I'm obsessed with like a little gaming, but only Fortnite because the other one stressed me out. I went through a grand theft auto phase, but it's making me too angry. So we switched over to Fortnite. It's much brighter. So that is, I think, a really important way. And another thing that I learned, I just like, I think it's so important to give credit where it's doing you learn something from someone.

But that Mal Robbins, honey, I saw something on her social where she was like, I'm not reading the news first thing anymore. And then I realized when I because I'm like such a news girl, like I love to read the news. I love reading period. But I always would just like wake up, do my coffee, maybe make a little coffee dance and then read the news. And then, I don't know if anybody knows about this,

but I used to do this like little coffee dance all the time in like 18, 19 and like 20 in the morning. So I just like woke up happy. I was like, I got money. People know me. My life's changed. This is so fucking fun. Then I moved to Texas.

Then I was like, dang, there's so much queer suffering here. There's so much going on. Like this pandemic's got me down. There is so fucking fun. Then I moved to Texas. Then I was like, dang, there's so much queer suffering here. There's so much going on. Like this pandemic's got me down. There is so much suffering. Like, and I just became so aware of the suffering and I read the news every morning. Then I kind of stopped coffee dancing because I was like, I don't feel like coffee dancing. I'm like sad all the fucking time.

Then when Mel Robbins said that, it's like, I'm like, I stopped reading the news first thing. I still read it, but I wait until like noon and then I read it for like an hour and then like, I'll still interact with that on social media if I see like, you know, because I follow like certain people and reporters on social. So I'll interact with it there, but not rolling out of bed, making my coffee, and then reading the news for 20 minutes is making me way more joyful. And it doesn't mean I'm being ignorant. And it doesn't mean I'm disengaging because I am engaged. I'm just not doing it when I open my eyes.

And I'm so much more likely to want to like do a little dance. I like go to Pilates and I'm like in a good mood. Then I listen to NPR, and then I'm like, those fuckers. And then I listen to some Ariana right before I go into class, and it's better. But that's like a whole 45 minutes later that I used to engage with it. And that really has been helpful.

Because I am still engaged, but it's not the very first thing I consume. And you guys, I cannot even tell you, I really do feel better from that switch. It was the same for me. I joke that I am seven months sober on news podcasts. Because at the peak of it, I was listening to like... That almost made me spit out my coffee. I was like 10,... That almost made me spit out my coffee.

I was like 10, 15 hours a week, like every single day. And then I was listening to all of the election coverage and then he got elected again. And I was like, I can't do this for the next four years. Like I can't have this much information coming at me. And so I have severely cut down on that kind of media. And again, doesn't mean I'm opting out. I'm actually opting out of that craziness. I heard it on Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach's podcast as the MAGA riptide. Like I'm out of that so I can actually opt in on the things that really do need my energy because it was the same thing for me. I was like, oh, God, I'm basically addicted to this thing

that I think in my head was keeping me informed, but in actuality was just fully stressing me out. Yeah, and it's like really, I feel like we got to pay attention to like voting, like what our elected officials are voting on. But I can do that. I mean, it's not like the votes happen at five in the morning every day. Like, you know, there's usually some buildup.

So it's like, I know who to follow. I know what news I need to watch. It's really legislative. I'm not trying to like engage in this like clickbait like stuff that just like makes me feel crazy. I do think that that is like so important. Sidebar, Glennon Doyle, I just started reading Untamed like two weeks ago.

I'm almost done. Fuck me hard, you guys. Untamed, honey, 2020. I was just too busy falling in love with my husband and like baking banana bread or something. I don't know what the fuck. Like, I don't know how it took me five years, but goddamn, Glennon Doyle is that fucking girl, honey.

I love her. I literally read that book. It changed my entire life. I don't think I would be doing this work if I hadn't read that book. And Jonathan, it was a big deal for me. It has not come out yet. Maybe it'll be out by the time this episode comes out.

I was invited on her and Abby's show. And that was, we recorded it a couple months ago. And that was, I got through the whole thing without crying and I was so proud of myself. But that was such a big deal for me because Abby's work as well. If you have not read Wolf Pack, like both of those women with Amanda, who's Glennon's sister, have been doing such incredible work for so long. Your energetic podcast, like clearing out like swapping, like swapping out, like the, all the news for like these other ones is I just think it's like been really, really good. It's like really, although I will say, you know, who I can't quit who I love so much

is like anything Rachel Maddow does. So I do. I can't MSNBC detox my talks myself from her. Like I am like, I'm such a fucking hardcore Rachel Maddow addict. Like I get it. I like my Rachel Maddow addiction has affected my life in the following ways. Like, I just love her so much. And not to like veer, but I will not veer too hard.

Have you listened to Bagman or it's Bagman and Ultra? But Ultra is especially interesting because it is like. It's giving now in some ways. And I also feel like her, her ability to like teach media literacy and like help you understand like what you should be researching and looking for, I think is really, really like above average for like other journalists at the moment. Well, and that's one of those things

that I think goes out the window as soon as people start feeling the panic and the stress is understanding what's true, what's not, what is been tweaked, let's say, or edited or biased in order to further a certain opinion. And I think that that is one of the most powerful tools we're going to need for the next, well, forever, but especially the next four years.

Yeah. So one of my favorite questions to ask people generally, but I think is uniquely fun if you're not a financial expert, is your first money memory. Do you remember the first time you remember thinking about money? You were the first person that ever asked me about this. And I think I said the same story on mine, but I can't remember. But as you ask me now, the first thing that comes to my mind is like,

our family used to go on like an annual vacation. And we went to Mall of America when I was like seven or something. And I remember my grandma gave all of us like $60. And I was like, oh my God, watch out. Like I'm literally like loaded in a way that you hoes aren't even motherfucking ready for. When I hit these stores, like you better get out of my face. So I separated from my family, like against, you know,

like orders, like you're supposed to stay together. Well, I had to go to Bath and Body Works because I had $60. And so nothing ever changes. Well, I had to go to Bath and Body Works because I had $60. And so nothing ever changes. And so I, I hauled asked about the Body Works and while the intercom was like, my nickname growing up was Jack. So the intercom was like, Jack Van Ness,

like please report to like the security, like your family. And I was like, I'm buying my peel off shea butter mask. I'm buying my Frisia. I'm buying my Juniper Breeze. So I had to. And I spent like the I spent like $59 and like 82 cents. Like I spent like all of the money and I was so happy with myself.

And my mom was like, when I found them, she was like, oh my God, like who would let a seven year old spend $60 like without their parents? They are just like, who like, who like, who did this lady think that this cash came from? And I was like... And then my mom was just so mad. She was like, you can't do the laser tag with anyone now because you spent all your money. I was like, I don't like laser tag. Like, I... Because we were supposed to, like,

you know, take from our money to, like, do the things. Like, because it was like to teach us about money, but I was like, I got what I wanted. Like, I'm happy to go sit outside and watch these little kids play laser tag. Like, I have priorities. wanted like I'm happy to go sit outside and watch these little kids play laser tag like I have priorities. But I just I've always I just feel like some of my earliest memories were with this like, you know, like blinders on focus of like this impulsivity. And it's

like once I got it in my mind that I wanted to try something or do something, it's like just impulsive. And that has just like literally bitten me in the ass whether I made, you know, $3 a year or like lots of dollars a year. I just have this problem where I like to make the money, light the money on fire, throw it out the window. And it really wasn't until you were I was like, wait, I'm having all this like pressure from like saying, like from just like too much overhead and and doing too much and spending too much,

and I'm not saving the way that I should. And that's stressing me the fuck out, because now I understand things better, and I understand the way that my impulsivity is folded into my mental health, which I literally didn't know until I fucking met you. Yeah. I think that's the thing that people don't understand that you just articulated so well, is a lot of people will come to me and they'll be like, money stresses me out so I don't look at it. And I'm like, do you think like that stressing you out more though, like, ignoring your money, you think is the way right of just I'm going to keep spending money and the example'll just make it. I'll just replace it somehow. Right. I'll just make more. I'm driving a car without knowing how much gas is in it. And it's like, that's fun until you break down

on the side of the road at 2 a.m. without cell service. Right? And like, I think, I wish more people understood that when you put off thinking about your money, to your point, maybe it's just, I'll make more or I'll figure it out, you're still going through life actually more stressed because you're ignoring the problem than it would be to just sit down and actually engage with it. When we come

back, we're talking more with Jonathan about how they change their financial story from head in the sand ostrich effect to becoming more involved in their finances. But we also take a detour talking about how to get luxury items like designer bags for a super discounted cost. And honestly, I learned a lot about the designer bag and resale market. And we also get into the value-based spending idea

from my book. Stay tuned. It is official, everybody. I am going on the cooking intensive. I know we've talked about it before. I've been dallying with the idea, but it is official. I've literally booked it. I'm filling out talked about it before. I've been dallying with the idea, but it is official. I've literally booked it. I'm filling out the forms right now.

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According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non-sponsored jobs. And how fast is Indeed? Well, in the minute I've been talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of the show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com slash FFPOD. Just go to indeed.com slash FFPOD right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash FFPOD. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring and data is all you need. So it literally has taken me since I had you on the pod, which I'm pretty sure was like October of 2023. Yeah, it's taken me almost this whole, like literally you guys in this time, I have gotten a

new business managing team. I learned how to budget. I understand what a P&L is. I also, the first thing I did after I had you on, I understood what I spent a month, which when I figured that out, I was like, someone take, like someone just fucking... Someone take my credit cards from me. No, just take me out. And also that was the other thing I learned about, because I ended up, I bought like, I had like, I bought like more than one property. And when I was buying properties, I was like, oh, well, it's like the down payment

and it's like the mortgage. Like that's what I was thinking in my head. It wasn't until I did the budgeting where I was like, no girl, it's like the maintenance. It's when someone breaks, it's when something breaks. And that's like all money that you can't invest, you can't save. So then my business manager was like,

well, this is how much money it costs you to run that property for a year. And then I was like, oh my God. And in this economy with real estate, honey, like now I just had to like, I learned about it after I, you know, interview you took me like kind of four months to figure all that out. Four months to kind of start savings again, four months to like stop the bleeding, like to get it kind of together, figure it out. Then, like, now I got these fucking properties and I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore. This is really stressful,

but it's not cute to sell a house right now. So now I've just had to like sit with my impulsivity and just like sit with these decisions and wait for the right time. And I can't do no fun impulse buying. Can't buy no cute bags. Although I did relapse at Hermes a few weeks ago. I like, it's fine everyone.

Like I was a tiny relapse. I haven't really relapsed since 2024, like on an Hermes moment. And I know that you don't really act like that and you don't really believe in that, but I'm stupid and I can't help it. And that French craftsmanship. Hi.

I get it. Well, congratulations. You will see me doing that. Thank you. But congratulations for all of it. And I think that one thing that anybody listening can take away is, you know, whether it's discovering my work or, you know,

discovering somebody else is starting to take money seriously, you then think, okay, I'm gonna fix it all. And that's gonna take two days. And I'm like, it's actually not. Like, it's gonna take a long time to understand your financial trauma, to understand your triggers,

to get your financial house in order to start figuring out how to make proactive decisions. And so what I love of what you just said is it's like, it takes months, if not years, it takes a long time. And like, that's not something to beat yourself up over. That's just the natural part of this. And I became, you know, I was saying I became obsessed with Solid Core. Or did I tell you that? I can't stop talking about it. My intention for the last like two weeks in class, I've been like, when the teacher's like,

okay, like what's your intention? And then you like said it like quietly in my head. I'm like, when that voice is like, buy it, go on, re-bag, get something resale. That's better because it's cheaper than retail. And like, that's how I can, but the voice tells me all sorts of different ways to like get around my rules, to like impulse buy something. Like even when it's out's how I can like, but the voice tells me all sorts of different ways to like, get around my rules to like impulse buy something like even when it's

out of my budget or like, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't like, and so like, in my solid core, I'm like, when that voice gets intense, think of it like this in your solid core and you're not going to do it. Like we're going to bump up right against that intensity, but we're not going to do it because of course it feels intense, but we're not gonna like do it. But yeah, I still do mess up sometimes. But I would say I'm like a good 85% better. Yeah. Well, and better doesn't mean perfect, right? Like better does not mean you've never spent money, because that's a diet, and we know diets don't work,

and it's the same thing with spending. And so it's like, you have to have a little flexibility with yourself. Very triggered by the bags. I think it's like Sex and the to have a little flexibility with yourself. Very triggered by the bags. I think it's like Sex and the City and being a millennial or something. I don't know. I'm just, I'm very, it's very trigger city for me, a bag. Yeah. Well, you found the thing that you love. And I think we probably talked about this when I came on your show, but it's like value categories, right?

You find the three things in your life that you love spending money on. And for me, like... Okay, because yours is travel, right? Yes, you're right. Yeah. good memory. Yeah, so like... What are you looking for? I tried the designer thing, Jonathan. Like I tried it because I saw all of these people being like, you know, once I started making a little bit of money,

I was like, oh, is this what you're supposed to spend your money on when you have some money? And then I would go and I would see, you know, this Gucci bag that I thought was beautiful, but it'd be $6,000. And I was like, nope, that's not for me. Like, it doesn't tickle anything. But you know what it does?

A luxury hotel. Oh, I dream about it for weeks. I like look at all the amenities multiple times. Like, I know what the amenities are, but I go to the website and I like look at all of them. And I try to do it on like credit card points too. So at least like half the stay is covered. It's getting you so much endorphins. Like you're just getting like fucking endorphin hit after endorphin hit. like look at all of them. And I try to do it on like credit card points too. So at least like half the stay is covered.

It's getting you so much endorphins. Like you're just getting like fucking endorphin hit after endorphin hit. Well because I do so much. Like we're saving the money, you're getting the pretty room. Literally, and I do so much taking care of people all of the time.

Like I'm an enneagram too. I take care of our team. I take care of my partner. Like, and it's so nice where I'm just like, someone's going to come clean after me, clean up after me like twice a day. I don't have to worry about anything. I don't have to cook.

And so that's the thing that I look forward to. But it's like to each their own. Can we take a, okay, cause I just have to tell you, I follow you very closely on the social, okay? You have like one of my favorite social accounts. I didn't know this, this is so nice. And I saw your thing about you, you're like, these are the things that as a millennial

or as a millionaire that may surprise you. And it was like, you're never gonna see me like spending the money on the designer bag. Like I tried a couple of times, but it's not for me. Like I literally like, I grow, I follow you. Like I'm like obsessed. So then I almost teared you about it. But then I was like, don't be psychotic. But since you brought it up and let's like talk about, so can we just take like a three minute bag detour into like bag land?

Because I've made so many mistakes. I've learned the bags that don't last. I've learned the bags that do. I've learned how to score them for cheaper. I've learned the bags that don't last. I've learned the bags that do. I've learned how to score them for cheaper. I've learned about resale. I've learned that like how you can resale well if you want to. And I've learned the ones that do hold their value

and the ones that do not hold their value. Part of this is because I also like secretly ghost follow Bethany Frankel, but I don't want her to know. So don't anybody tell her because I'm scared that she's going to review my hair products online. And she's going to be like, I don't like this shit. Even though I do think that she would like it

if she did try it, but like, I don't know why. I'm just like, I revere her, but I'm also like, kind of scared of her. It's like this. Oh, she's terrifying. Yeah, it's like this like multi-pronged ball for me with Bethany Frankel, but I do really like look up to her and her back university, it taught me a lot about my steez

as I've been like, you know, understanding like my categories and like, because remember how when you were on and I was like, oh my God, of all my impulse buys, there's only like 25% of them that I love, that I would use again, that I love. So then I started about, I was like, let me get rid of that other 75, because it just brings up guilt and shame

that I let my impulsivity win, and I don't need them collecting dust. And so the ones that made me sad to get rid of, I didn't get rid of, but the ones that I was like, I literally don't give a shit if I ever wear that again. And it's been on a shelf for like literally years. Those ones I thought. So Jonathan, yes, please tell us, because I'm even curious what because all of it feels to me because it's not something that I love spending my money on.

A slight waste of money. Now, I'm not shaming you. I'm not shaming anybody listening. If you save, if that's the thing that's going to bring you a ton of joy, great. I'm just hard on my shit. Like I'm just, I wear the same bag for five years. These are the bags that you can be hard on. These are the bags that you can be hard on and not, and it will not waste your money. The row, the row bags hold up so well. They have a small cross body that's incredible that like, it's not for like computers and

stuff, but just a small cross body. You can write it so hard. It's like two grand. I've had one for like six years. And also if you fuck your stuff up from the row, you can send it back to them and they will like repair your bags. It's like lifetime bag repair. So they're really good. I'm like obsessed with the row. Now I know that this is a thing and I know that it's annoying. I know that it's annoying. But I did finally get an essay, like a sales associate at Hermes who I did like who I can get like a bag from Hermes now. And I did not have to spend that much money. You really don't have to like go like buy all these other things like that's all you really just have to find an essay that you like that you

connect with that like likes you and and you might have to go to multiple stores to find that person. So my I just bought fragrance. I bought fragrance until I found one. And I was like, oh, like, and I didn't go in for the bag. I was like, I just really want fragrance. And then once you, once they're like, and if they ask you what bags you would like, that's how you found your girl.

If they don't ask you, you don't ask them and you grab on anyone. But now I have one that I did really hard. John, I have to pause you. I have to pause you. For the civilian, what does this mean? Because a lot of people don't know, you can't just walk into Hermes and be like that one.

Like what what is happening when you say I have a person now? You have you have to get like a sales associate at Hermes if you want to score a Birkin or Kelly. There are some bags that you can be like, I want that one. But there are certain bags that you have to be like offered. But there's this like whole like wives tale that you got to like spend a certain amount. And that was not my experience. Like you just have to find the sales associate that likes you. I got my bag off of like, I just bought a fragrance. And that's how I got my first bag. After that, the point of that is, reseller mezzas are like really expensive because I like didn't want to wait. And then I was like, Oh my god, there's no sense of if you can

get it from the store. It's actually like, it's still expensive, but it's nothing like resale. And I don't resale my bags because I'm obsessed with them. But if someone did do that, you could actually really make money on that. But don't ever tell them that. But I'm not a resale girly for Hermes

because now that I finally got there, I'm like, I just want my once a year bag and I love it. But they do resale really well. So if you ever did need to get rid of your bags, Hermes is the only bag that actually is an investment where you could buy something and then sell it for what you bought it for or more and actually use it. So I don't do that, but you could do that if you wanted to. And like they actually like really do hold their value.

It's like crazy. Chanel. I don't know if they really care about reselling their bags the way that Hermes because like if Hermes finds out that you're reselling a bag like they don't like this Chanel, I don't think it's like really the same, but I did resell all my Chanel, my Chanel's were some of the ones where I was like, Oh, like I resold a lot of those suckers and in my experience with the Chanel's, they keep like half their value. So you buy it, you literally never use it again, you keep it in the box. So that's really not a good investment. I always thought that those were like good investment pieces. They're not the only one that actually is in my experience is Hermes, but they really hold up. You can really use them. The row,

I feel like holds up really, really good. Bottega holds up really, really good. And actually for the girl who does not want to spend a lot of money on a bag, but wants a designer bag, this is what I would say, because this is what I learned. Bottega does not hold their value, but you can beat the shit out of them. So if I was trying to do, like trying to save a little money, but wanted something really gorgeous,

and this is someone who's resold a lot of their Bottegas, because I just didn't use a lot of them, there's bags that cost eight grand, like retail, that someone lightly uses. There's not even a stain. It's just used and there's not a box, but it looks very new. You can get it for $1,700, $1,500. So you can get one that's got a little bit of wear and tear for 800, but it will last you for 10,000 years and it's kind of cool when it's a little bit worn.

You know? like 800, but it will last you for like 10,000 years. And it's kind of cool when it's like a little bit worn, you know? So the resale market really is like, you can get like bags that are like a quarter, a third, cause most bags don't hold their value. So you really like that six grand Gucci bag, you could probably get for like 800 from like Rebag.

I didn't know any of this. Look at this. And the row is, isn't that Mary Kate and Ashley's brand? Yes. Who those fucking girls. Like, if I wouldn't just like lay down on train tracks for them, which I would, like, I don't know why they're like... Actually, this is the row. Let me put you on the row sale.

Can I put you on the row sale? You guys. Type in therow.com and just look in there like once a week. They never talk about it. It's very low key. It's very secret. You have to go on there online and then you click on the men and women. And then every once in a while, it'll just say sale. Like this sweater that I'm wearing, you guys, I literally got it for 70 fucking 5% off. I think no one liked it because it's got these like insanely long sleeves, but I love like a crazy long sleeve and this like V neck. So you go on their sale. They really do have steep cuts, but they never advertise it because

they're like chic ass luxury ladies. So they're not they're not they're not advertising their sales. You guys got to sneak in there like a thief in the night on their online. Look for the sale and their sale like you can just pillage it. I have gotten on their sale stuff. It would have cost like $12,000 at the store for like 3000 for like a bunch of stuff. Shoes, sweaters, like like they have good ass sales and their stuff really is made so well it holds up like it really does like beat it up. Yeah. Yes. Well, and let's talk

about that for a second because I think anybody who's listening to this show knows that no matter what you want to spend your money on as long as you can afford it and it's a thoughtful purchase, I don't fucking give a shit. I don't care. You can buy your designer stuff, you can buy your Four Seasons Hotel. I do not care. We do not your designer stuff. You can buy your Four Seasons Hotel. I do not care. We do not shame people by saying, oh, it costs this much. Like you spend your money on the things that you love.

However, what I think you're talking about for somebody who might be going, oh, I can't, $3,000, that's crazy. Can you maybe talk about spending money on things that hold up or last as opposed to the things that you might get like at H&M because I think that that was something I learned in my 20s even. Now I'm still not shopping designer, but it was like, okay, I'm willing to pay $120 for a pair of jeans that fit

me really well because I know I'm going to have them and wear them for a very long time. So can you talk to me more about that? Yes. So, I mean, I also just would say that like, you know, H&M, like I have H&M pieces that I've had for like 15 years, like 10 years. Like I have some H&M stuff that like, I don't know if it's like from some factory, cause like some stuff holds up really good from there. And then some it's like, you know, you wear it for a year or two and it's not happening anymore. So I don't know, you can get really great stuff from your H&M's and from that level of retailer like Chef's Kiss. I would also say another retailer that's really good that's giving the row but not those prices, but it's more expensive than H&M's Cause.

I really like COS Cause. Like, they, and also I really like Quince. Quince and Cause are two places where you can get, like, really good luxury... Quince is a sponsor of the show. I'm obsessed with them. I would be obsessed with them even if they weren't sponsoring the show. They're so good. Girl, you know when I discovered them?

After I met you, because I was like, I can't be going to the row like this anymore, but I still want some nice cashmere sweaters. Like, I still want some, like, luxurious... And then after Kim K, like, did all her Kim K stuff, I was like, well, I can't be wearing Skims dresses like that everywhere. So I still wear the old ones because those bitches were expensive, but I don't buy new ones.

And they have really cute, like, um, like spaghetti strap, like, you know, just like wear around the house dresses on quints that I love. So I think I'll also turn you on to Spanx. Spanx doesn't. I think so. I fuck with all their stuff. I love me some Spanx. Sarah Blakely followed us about three months ago, and I literally cried

because I love this woman so much. But I have probably six, five or six of their jumpsuits. They are the most comfortable things. Okay, not an ad, but they are so comfortable. And I literally worn them on like transatlantic 12 hour flights and they still hold their shape, which I've never found before. If you're wearing something all day,

like usually it gets a little stretchy, it stretches out. It did not stretch at all. And I wear these things like a second skin all the time. I love her. I think she's so brilliant. Now I will tell you how I like about like the lasting thing or like, you know, spending something. So yeah, so I just cannot emphasize enough. The resale market really is so good. People are reselling stuff that is so not used and like barely used and it just does not hold its value. I'm talking like the Web address is Bottega addresses. Like if you have not messed with the real real, get into it. Like I'm sorry, but if

that is one of your top three categories, but like you're like, that's too expensive. Get into that resale. I'm getting so many cute pieces like for fractions of the cost. That's that. Now, I don't know if you'll believe me when I say this, and this might be one of those things where I thought I was doing good, but maybe I wasn't, but this is how I justify my expensive pieces from like, you know, like those more expensive pieces. So I take the price, right? Then I think to myself,

I'm gonna wear this for like 10 events or like eight events. Like I'm gonna wear this like this many times this year or like this many times, like I plan it out. Cause usually when I buy stuff like that, it is for work. It's either for like tour or for work. It's like not for me to like wear out to brunch, but still it's like a cost is a cost. So I'm not like trying to spend money just, you know, to spend it. So I think about like price per wear. So if I'm like, if I can have this thing for like a couple of years and I can wear it for like three stage shows, a press tour and like another thing, then it's like not really 3000. It's like 400 or 300 like a time. So you could like apply that to whatever your like price range is. And then you just

like, and I wear my pieces, I don't like wear it once and then like put it up. I don't like buy one thing and then put it in like some, you know, like fashion rotunda that I don't ever break out again. Because ever since I met you literally, like fashion rotunda that I don't ever break out again. Because ever since I met you, literally, I resold all the stuff that I don't repeat that I consider like it was kind of impulsive or it was like trendy or it was for like one thing. I literally don't do that anymore. I only buy stuff that I can rewear for like a long time or that like I am obsessed with. I also buy a bunch of resale stuff now that I didn't use to.

So I really have like fundamentally changed my approach to like how I, you like dress myself for work. I do think about like a price per wear thing. And I also think about like, if there was something that I was rougher on, you know, a couple of H&M things in a row, like they're like, that's still like a couple hundred and if you just like ruin it or like, don't really take care of it. You end up, it kind of reminds me of like cheap shampoo and conditioner versus like better shampoo and conditioner. Yeah.

Better is like more concentrated. It actually lasts longer. And then you have to like buy more of the less good stuff, which is like a little harder on your hair. So it's like at the end of the year, you may be paid like pretty close to the same thing, but the quality of one was way better than the other, which I do feel like that's not blowing smoke. Like I feel like that's real. So that's what I, that's how I do feel like that's not blowing smoke. Like, I feel like that's real. So that's what I, that's how I do it. We're talking about all this stuff of, you know, the lifestyle that both of us have now. But I think a lot about, for me, it was, you know, I'm 30.

For me, it was my early 20s of trying to navigate, just spending money in these really micro moments on the things that I love. And can you take me back before Queer Eye? Because you had just turned 30 when you joined the cast. Like what was your money or spending like when you were a small business owner just trying to get by? Sorry, I keep jumping right in here when we get to the really good questions. But hey, the sponsors keep this show 100% free for you. So when we come back,

we're talking about Jonathan's rise to fame through Queer Eye and everything they wish that they had done differently when they started making more money. This is such a great lesson if you're someone who has started making more money and wants to know what pitfalls to avoid. Plus, I get into a rapid fire breakdown of retirement accounts. We'll be back. We're all trying to cut back on our spending right now. Everything feels a little tight.

We want to make sure that we're spending money on things that we're actually using. But anytime I talk to somebody in our community who's just starting on their financial journey, I always end up discovering things that they're spending money on that are a complete waste. And I know that because I use Rocket Money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money shows you all of your expenses in one place, and they'll even try to negotiate lower bills for you. Rocket Money's 5 million members have saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, with members saving up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium

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and how to pivot your business fast. As we continue to expand her first 100K, this is one tool that's going to be in my arsenal because it's just so important to know everything that's going on in your business all the time. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade, Three Insights for Leaders at netsuite.com slash ffpod. That's netsuite.com slash ffpod. It was obviously really different because I was making like, you know, $70,000 or like, I mean, I think when I, the first year I did hair, like in LA after I moved back to LA, it was like, it was like 40, 60, 80. And then it like, I think, then I like booked Queer Eye

and like the year that I booked Queer Eye was like the first year that like in the salon, I got to like right around 100K. Like before taxes. And like, you know, having to do like all of the things because I was a small business owner. But one thing I've noticed about myself is, is that whether I made like 40,000 a year or what I've made in these last few years,

the impulsivity and like the resistance to budgeting and like that was there then and it was there now. Like now it might have been like a robe bag, but I remember so viscerally like going to All Saints and seeing this like suede boot and it was like $159. And I was like, $159 for a fucking boot. Like, God damn, like they were trying to rob me blind, but that suede is so gorgeous.

And I dreamt about it and I thought about it and I was like, am I, like they're trying to rob me blind, but that suede is so gorgeous. And I'm and I dreamt about it and I thought about it and I was like, am I really someone who could just like buy like $160 boots? Like who do I think I am? And then this client like tipped me really good. And then I was like, I'm fucking buying the boots. I took myself to like third street promenade to that All Saints and I bought those boots and I literally still have them in my closet. Those have not fallen the resale because they're like so like sentimental to me. Yeah. Even though I don't wear them anymore. And I remember the first apartment

that I bought, there was like a one bedroom instead of like a bachelorette. Like I was, I remember like asking all my clients, I mean, like, do you think I can like, is that like, do you think and they were like, girl, yes, like you can do it, girl, like get the fucking apartment. So a lot of anxiety, a lot of like not knowing it. And the reason that I had the anxiety is because like I didn't want a budget. I didn't want to know how much I was spending. I didn't want to look at some of the behaviors. So I just like ostriched it.

And it was literally not until, not to say 18 million times, but you know, until like I met you that I stopped doing that. So whether I made a little bit or like a lot of it, a lot of the same behaviors, same approach. So yeah, it just was a smaller, different scale. I would say that one really intense thing for me at least, and this is why I'm so passionate about politics and I talk about it so much and living with HIV is like in my 20s, the HIV social safety net saved my life. And so it was really important. Like at the time, you know,

like I, you know, if you make over a certain amount, like you don't qualify, which I really didn't have to worry about because like, I wasn't really even close to that amount. But I remember like the first year it was the year that I booked queer, I were like, took myself off of it. And I remember like going to the office and being like, I'm going to make too much this year. Like, I don't need this like assistance. And I was like, so proud of myself. But like, without that, like, and also like, that was so stressful, because like, it wasn't like just provided like, you like, you're qualifying for like the medical and like them helping you with your medicine is like incumbent upon you filing your taxes. It also like had to at least when I was doing it, it was like all about your birthday. So like always renewed on your birthday. So like mine, my birthday is like right before like taxes are due. So like, and as an

independent contractor, I was always like, shitting my pants and like February and March, because I would like do it by the month. But you know, it just was so stressful because it's like when you turn everything in, if it doesn't go through or if it's not on time, and it's like your medicine and when you achieve and maintain an undetectable viral load, like you're not contagious, but if you get cut off from your medicine, like that's not good. And so it's really stressful. And like that wasn't like an easy thing to navigate.

It was like the early days of the Affordable Care Act. So I was navigating like the ACA, Medi-Cal, Medicaid, like the subsidies, you know, learning that I had HIV living with that. And my like, you know, it was like my mid to late twenties that I like, I found out when I was like 25 And then I booked queer eye when I was 29. So there was four years of like Just a lot of nail biting and and worriedness around like and then once I did make a little more money then I was like

Oh my god What if I do make too much and what if i'm not and what if I get cut off? but then what if like I break my wrist or like what if something happens and then I don't make as much money and so like the whole system is really fucked up because the last thing someone should be worrying about is like acquiring their pills. Like for public safety, once you know you have HIV, if you can like get on your meds and stay on them, you can't you literally that's like where that whole saying like undetectable

equals on transmittable comes from. It's like when you're undetectable, you literally can't pass the virus like sexually. Like for me to give someone HIV, like my liver would have to like lacerate down the middle and like fall in your liver because we like were in a such a like, you know what I mean? It would be like gruesome blood exchange. Like it'd be like, and you're probably not living through that anyway, but it's just incredible how far we've come and how like not that big of a deal living with HIV needs to be. Like, because it really like, you know, I take a pill once a day, go to the doctor every

three months. I feel great. I'm not contagious. Like, you know, but your life expectancy from diagnosis now is 50 to 75 years, which is incredible. Like, my goal of living to be 107 is like still attainable because I found out when I was 25. So like, I'm still totally in this. Um, but yeah, but it is, it becomes a really big fucking deal when you can't get your medicine. It goes from being this like treatable disease

where it's not really an issue for public safety. Cause like I said, you're not, you know, passing it around, but when it, when you cut off your medication, actually there's a Supreme court case going on right now where this you know employer in Texas It's called Braidwood management versus like something but they're the employer and like they don't want to cover preventative care and I can already feel what you guys are thinking you're like, well, how does this affect me? Guess what also is preventative care birth control. So these people are trying to say that because of their religious birth control. So these people are trying to say that because of their religious, like their faith, they don't feel that they should have to cover birth control or prep for their employees.

And this is going to like directly affect public health. And another thing that makes me so angry is when people would say like, well, you know, family planning and birth control, like isn't economics like that's not kitchen table issues, like when they would say that about Kamala. And it's like, what the fuck do you mean that's not kitchen table issues? Do you know how expensive it is to raise a kid? Like that is the most like not having reproductive autonomy and reproductive freedom. Like I learned that from Melinda Gates, not to name drop Melinda French Gates, but her work and her and her research like took her all over the world to like developing countries. And they found that when women didn't have access to family planning, that's what causes the impact

to opportunity. It's the most economic issue. Yes. Absolutely. I'm sure you guys already know that, but I learned about it and I was like, my little gay mind was just like, ugh. No, but it's what we talk about so much in my work

where you and I can talk about budgeting and we can talk about finding bags for cheap and we can talk about all of this. And it's helpful, right? Talking about budgeting, talking about paying off debt, talking about investing, these are all important things. And they're some of the only things we unfortunately as individuals can control about our financial picture because there is so much that is policy driven or lack of policy driven that directly affects your money. And I think we grow up believing that if we're bad with money or if we don't have enough money, that it's somehow

our fault that we're not good with it or it's our identity of just, you know, I don't know math, so I'm not good with money. And it's like, no, there's definitely steps you can take. But it's probably because the minimum wage federally has not been raised in a couple decades. It's probably because abortion access is continually at threat. It's probably because medication is so fucking expensive. And it's like, these things have a lot more to do with whether you're able to financially survive and thrive than do you know how to money? Um, I have a really intense pivot that my ADHD wants me to do,

but if it doesn't work, you can just be like, that doesn't work, you're insane, and then we can just go. But I have a question for you. Talk to me. For me, okay. So, ever since I met you, now, like, all my girls, because I talk about it so much, one of my girlfriends, like, went through this thing where she found out that her mom had had, like,

a life insurance policy that she didn't know about. And then her mom passed away. And then she came into almost a hundred grand. She literally hung up on the insurance company three times because she thought it was a joke. And then the fourth time they were like, please don't hang up. This is not a fucking joke. We're trying to figure out how to get you this very life changing money.

So her and then my other girlfriend got like 10 grand. And in both of their cases, their debt was way less less than what they got whether it was 10 or the 100. So they were like, well, what should I do? And I was really good with like figure out your monthly budget first. That's the first thing that you have to do. Then you're going to pay off the credit cards. We don't want to do it all the way to the zero every month. You got to have like a little bit to like figure that out based, you know,

what you want to put on there, figure out what your thing are. Is that not right? You stopped me because I opened my mouth really wide. We actually want to pay off our credit cards completely. That is one of the myths. All the way every month. All the way every month. It's one of the myths that gets perpetuated

and it's like, oh, we'll increase your credit score that way. It's like, no, it just puts you in debt. It's not a big deal. They can pay it off really quick, especially if they have that amount of money. I told her to keep like 150. I told her to keep like 150 on there a month. Like, okay, so just keep, okay,

so I have to call her back and tell her that. You can send her my way too. Oh God, Jesus Christ. Okay, so I'll tell her that. I actually already did. I told her that she should have been, like I already told her that like 19 million times and she might have done that by now.

She's really cute. So, but then this is the part that I get stuck on for independent contractors. So like, I do the credit card thing and then it's like, do the three months of your, three to six months of your like emergency fund saved up. And then you got to like do your retirement stuff. And then for the independent contractors, I can't explain the difference. And when I read about it online, why is a Roth or not a Roth better?

And like, who is that better for again? And like, what's the difference again? I just cannot fucking figure it out and I want to understand it. No, I love this question. Okay, so let's just talk about Roth versus traditional before we add independent contractor in. So whether it's a traditional IRA, a traditional 401k, a Roth IRA, a Roth 401k, it's basically the differences in how they're taxed. So if you have a traditional 401k, that is a 401k offered through your employer. So if you are a nine to five or a W-2 and you get a 401k, you cannot open a separate 401k.

That's either a benefit that's offered to you or not. The traditional Roth or 401k means that you are paying the tax when you retire. So the money's getting taken out at that point. A Roth 401k or Roth IRA means that you are paying the tax now. And the IRA and the 401k, again, the 401k is offered through your employer. The IRA stands for individual retirement account.

So pretty much anybody can open one of those, whether you're self-employed. Even if you have a 401k too, right? Yes, you can open both. those, whether you're self-employed, you have a 401k to write. Yes, you can open both. Yep. So I think I need to do I think like that's the next thing I should do a sidebar. Like I need to get an IRA. I need to in stock market school really, which is my program that teaches you how to invest. And we'll I'll talk to you later about it. So the IRAs are again, individual retirement accounts

Roth means you pay the tax now. Now, everybody's got to make their own decision, you got to choose the one that's right for you. For me, I like Roth options for the average person for two reasons. One, it's like giving 65 year old me a little gift. It's like, hey, I paid the tax 30 year old me pay the tax. Go take your hot Pilates instructor named Luca out for lunch where you drink Sauvignon Blanc in Italy. Like that's my real life retirement plan. The second thing is like,

I have no idea what the fuck taxers are gonna be. Now they could be better. It'll probably be Hunger Games. So I would rather just pay the tax now than wait till later. But it gets interesting when you start making more and more money because you then need to go to an accountant and be like, which one based on the amount of money I'm making slash the ability, what money do I have to invest and where should it go?

So that's where it starts getting slightly more complicated. But for the average person listening, I don't care what account you contribute to. I just care that you're contributing. I think a lot of people get hung up on making the perfect decision. And I'm like, honestly, I just need you to pick one and run with it. When you're an independent contractor, she could open up your own 401k, your business could open up a 401k.

It could also open what's called a SEP IRA. It's a self-employed IRA, but you cannot contribute to both of those in a calendar year. It's either 401k or either SEP IRA, but then either of those plus a Roth IRA, for example, you can contribute. So you could do a 401k and a Roth IRA.

You could do a SEP IRA and a Roth IRA in the same year. But again, talk to your accountants. You just can't do a SEP and a 401k in the same year. But you could do a Roth and a, okay, all right. Yeah, it's just the 401k and the SEP IRA have really high maximums that you can contribute. And so they're trying not to, you know, give you the ability to contribute. Give yourself too much of a gift when you're 65.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Um, when's your university, I kind of want to sign up. And also if you did sign up for that university, does that mean that like, you like don't need a investment manager because you just like do your own? Yes. Yes. Yes. It was actually a question I had for you and you offered me the perfect segue. But stock market school to not shamelessly plug too hard because I've plugged it on the show before.

We literally built not only the ability to teach people how to invest, but the actual technology. It's an app that we built. And as of literally a couple days ago, over $100 million has been invested by the women, women plus in that community. And 80% of the people who joined have never invested before. So like we're not just offering education. We're like actually bridging wealth gaps. And it's my fucking favorite thing. But oh my God, do you guys hear that on the audio? It's it's the hot bitch alarm. It's going off so hard right now again. Girl, that is so cool. It's so, it's like my favorite part about my work is like,

okay, let's actually get people investing. But one of the things I wanted to talk to you about, and again, to whatever like, whatever level of vulnerability you want, I think that when you booked Queer Eye, when you started making more money, this happens to a lot of people, regardless of whether you were on a Netflix show

and you're super famous or not, is if you start making some money, you then think, I don't know how to do this and I need to hand it to somebody else. Like, I don't know how to manage this money and I'm making more money than I've maybe ever made in my life and I need to hand this to somebody who knows how to money. Unfortunately, sometimes it works out.

I think, unfortunately, sometimes it doesn't. Can you talk to me about your experience of, wow, I'm making really decent money and I don't know what I'm doing. So maybe I need to give it to somebody. Yeah. I mean, I had a business manager this whole time because I really didn't know what I'm doing, so maybe I need to give it to somebody? Yeah, I mean, I had a business manager this whole time because I really didn't know, like... I mean, I had an accountant before Queer Eye

who I would go to every year for, like, the health insurance stuff and, like, you know, filing my taxes. But then once I booked Queer Eye, I was, like, doing stand-up comedy in, like, 30 states and sometimes internationally. So there was, like, 30 state income tax returns. Like, there was, like, employment stuff. There was, like like HR stuff. Oh, I'm big fans of accountants.

I think accountants are well worth their money. I think. No, totally. Yeah. But I'm just saying that like there was, there were things that my old accountant couldn't do once I started doing, you know, stand up in like all these different states

in different countries. Like she was licensed in California. She like wasn't licensed, like she didn't know how to do like some of those like other things. So then I went with like a business manager because I needed someone who could like learn or that could do all of the things and help me like with employment, you know, just anything like so that's kind of the idea of a business manager is that like they do like not only your taxes, they like should kind of probably help you with your

budget. They usually like help you with with finding an investment person, but they charge commission. So they charge like 5% of everything you make. So that's usually the setup of how that works. So I had the same one for years and years and years who I really, really loved. And he didn't do anything wrong. It's just that our response to a budget shortfall or me being like, wow, I feel like really overextended and like, you know, I like, oh my God, I'm just like working like so, so, so much.

Our answer is just like make more money. Like I needed to like find something else to book, like find something else to do. And so I just left, I just, and so that was working. And then I, but I was just literally so burnt out. So burnt out, sad, overwhelmed. And then once we had our episode of Vibod, I was like, oh my God, I just don't wanna feel like this. And it just brought a lot into focus for me.

I was like, I've never done these exercises. I didn't even know anything about this stuff. So then that's when I was like, I think maybe I need to make a shift, but I didn't do anything reactive. I was like, let me just start to figure this stuff out. Then I kind of started to shop around. Then I found a business manager who took me for like less of a commission, but did more stuff and also just like brought me into visibility on more things.

Like I never did a profit and loss. I never did a budget. And so I do that, you know, really like in lockstep with this team that I ended up going to and they've been incredible. You know, I, I've saved with this team that I ended up going to. And they've been incredible. You know, I've saved some money because like I said, they charge less. And, you know, could I do it on my own? Like, could me and my insular team do it on our own? Maybe we could. I'm sure we could.

I kind of feel even still like between learning how to write, because I mean, I've written like three books. I'm learning how to write scripted. I'm running a hair care company that's like in seven countries, expanding, trying to turn that bus around because our former parent company filed for bankruptcy in 2023. So that was a really stressful process and needed to find a new parent company,

which we did successfully and I really liked them. And we've been able to maintain control of our DNA. And oh my God, I have 10% ownership of my company now, which I never had before. So I actually like have equity in it now, which I never had before, which is really cool. Can I pause you? So it has your name, image and likeness all over it.

You didn't own any of it before. 0% for the first like three years because the company that went bankrupt, they basically were like, we're going to invest like 40 million dollars in this company. You're not investing anything in it. So like you don't get to own any of it. But obviously, we're going to invest like $40 million in this company. You're not investing anything in it. So like you don't get to own any of it, but obviously like no control. Or like-

You're investing your name and your fucking credibility. And oh, there you go. But they were like, it wasn't like that. So obviously their business model wasn't great because they went bankrupt. And that was really crazy stressful, you know, the whole thing. Because we, my team and our company

worked so hard to build ourselves a legacy, not saying that the other companies that were affected by this didn't, but a lot of them don't exist anymore. And a lot of them like didn't find the bandwidth to like, to kind of land on their feet. And that was transitioning from a parent company that goes bankrupt to finding a new parent company. And I'm like, really strict about formulas. I'm really strict about packaging.

And thank God we found a parent company that was willing to like come in, help resuscitate us, didn't make us change our packaging, didn't make us change our formulas. They've been so supportive. They've invested in us. They gave me 10% ownership, which is incredible. And also like a vesting schedule to like get more ownership if we meet certain goals.

So I'm just so proud of like what we were able to do there. But anyway, the long and short of it is this new business team, like they literally part of their thing was like, you have to have, oh, well, the moral of that other story was like, I just don't want to spend the time and the bandwidth on learning how to do those things when I'm focusing on other things. But this new team really has been incredible. Like they require that we have a meeting once a week.

Like I'm not allowed to skip it. Like, so I have to once a week, we look at income, or like we look at cash in, we look at cash out, we look at projections, we look at the whole year. Like, I have like a one, three, five-year plan. Like, we have a savings plan for like what I need to save every month. Like, we had to do a little bit of a reorg

on like certain things, which kind of, you know, made me lose sleep and made me really sad because like I, you know, didn't want to really have to do that, but I did have to have some tough conversations because at the bottom line, at the end of the day, I was spending more than I was making and I was not going to reach my goals. So we had to do some reorgs. I'm selling a house, but it hasn't happened yet because I just, patience. So yeah, so that's kind of what it took. It has taken a lot. I'm still sitting with the consequences of some of those impulsive decisions

before I knew how to do some of this stuff. But I do really, and I feel bad because my old business manager really was like so sweet, so nice, but like that's how a lot of business managers are. They're like, and he wasn't bad. He just wasn't really hands-on. And I will say that these people are women in their like young thirties

and they're much more just like, uh-uh-uh, like they don't just really let me coast. They don't do like a yes person thing. They're like, uh, uh, uh, like they don't just really let me coast. They don't do like a yes person thing. They're like, no, no, no. Like we got to talk about this because like we aren't mind readers and like, they just don't let me get away with shit, which I love. And like, I have just learned so much. So maybe someday I could, but right now I really like the support of this team and they help me make sure that like no shit falls through the cracks. I really feel like they're earning their keep

because I have so much more security and peace of mind like than I used to. Yeah. When we come back, we're finishing our conversation with Jonathan, including talking about how she feels on the other side of financial education and how she navigates being an activist and an advocate for queer joy.

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proud of yourself. It's just so cool. I'm getting like, I'm in luteal, I'm about to start my period. I'm like teary on a good day, but like trying to hold it together. No, it's just, it's just really great. And it's like... No, girl, the universe really is crazy because I interviewed you when that was going on. Like when the bankruptcy was going... No, I'm sorry, because I like,

I'm fucking over talking to your own podcast, but I just, I was so excited to come on because like the universe literally introduced me to you, like when that bankruptcy was happening. It was in the thick of it. And I was realizing my hair care company was potentially crumbling. I didn't know if we were gonna find a future or find a home.

It went from fastest growing hair care company in the country, I'm not even just saying that. We were the fastest growing hair care company in the country. And then the rug just got pulled out from under us to the point where like, I didn't even know. I mean, we were going to become one of those like horror stories. And to be clear, we still could.

Like, we're not all the way out of the woods, but we have turned such a corner. We have come such a far way. And I am just so proud of our community, of the people that have supported us through this and like our like mega super fans. Cause at the end of the day, I do feel like what did save JVN hair is like the quality of our product and then our community. Cause like if our product wasn't good and it wasn't as effective as it is,

it wouldn't have lasted this long anyway. But we also couldn't have done it without support and understanding cause like our inventory got fucked up, our like deliveries got messed up because the parent company went bankrupt. So we couldn't pay vendors, we couldn't, it was a mess. And here's the moral story of that

for any entrepreneur listening. You cannot cherry pick what you want to learn about when you start a business. Like when I started JVN here, I was like, oh, I only care about formulas and marketing and formulas and performance. But I was like, packaging. And I'll, I only care about formulas and like marketing and like formulas and like performance. But I was like packaging. And I'll hire other people to talk about money and numbers.

Yeah, you have to have ownership. Yep, yep. And not even like if you own it all of it, it's just like, you have to understand, you have to like, because it's like, there are experiences that you've had and skin that you have in the game that other people by nature just won't. And if you don't understand what decisions they're making,

like there are just like really preventable things that you, that I just, I should have known what EBITDA was, and I didn't, but now I do. I didn't know about operations and I didn't care, but now I do, especially with tariffs and stuff now, Jesus Christ. Like the president of the company and I are just like, just together, like I just learned,

she always jokes that JVN hair is like the business degree that I never asked for, but like I have one now, like it's like an unofficial BA. But I am really proud of myself too, because so much of me wanted to just like sell everything and go buy like a small cabin on a lake and like grow like tomatoes with my husband and animals and like never come out of a cave. But I'm really proud that 2024 wasn't able to do that to me because it almost did, but it didn't. Yeah.

Well, for anybody listening, I think one of the most impactful things about what we're discussing is I think it's very easy to watch people you admire, people on TV, people who you think are like, oh, they make so much more money than me. They have all of their shit figured out. And I appreciate your vulnerability.

And I hope people understand who are listening. Like just because you make a bunch of money or just because you have a TV show doesn't mean that your financial trauma goes away. It does not mean that like you suddenly know everything about how to run all of this. And I have been increasingly in rooms with people who I'm like, oh, actually there's a lot either I can teach you or there's a lot that you can learn about money because I want you to have something

to show for it. Like I want you to have something to show for this moment that's turned into a movement. I want you to have something to show for when you get a raise at work. Like I want you to not just waste that opportunity because, you know, the financial education piece wasn't there. So I just really appreciate your vulnerability.

And I think it's going to be comforting to people, weirdly, to know that like, oh, OK, just because you're, you know, quote unquote, rich and famous does not mean any of these problems go away, you know? They actually get bigger and worse and more severe. Higher to fall. Yeah. Yeah, I've always said like... If you don't get it together.

If you can manage like $300, you can manage $30,303 million. Like it's not really that much difference. Now, you start getting to have, you know, maybe nicer things. You start getting to hopefully save and invest more money. There are certain strategies to do, you know, to again, protect your money. But the basics are the same. Understanding budgeting, understanding your impulsivity, understanding your financial trauma, like whether again, you're making $3 or $30 million, it's actually very similar. Yes, I mean, a part of me does just still fantasize about how irresponsible and impulsive I used to be, but I just did it without like $30 million. But sometimes I just get this fantasy of

if I had $30 million and just like, and Hermes didn't work how it works. And you could just like, I found this lady on TikTok, you guys. I don't know what her, what she does, what her man does, what her family does. But this Hermes collection on this lady is like, take you out at the knees, weak at the knees. Like I would- Is this the woman who's like, I'm a trust fund baby with a hundred thousand dollar a week salary? Is that this person? No, no, the queen is like, she's like in her sixties, she's British. She's so cute. I think she has a house in like London and New York and Tokyo.

Cause she's like, this is my London collection. This is my non-traveling like New York collection. This is my non-traveling Cherokee collection. She's got like exotics. She's got cuts of, of, of, of, of, or Mez bags I've never even heard of. Like she taught me about this, like this one called like the Lindy, the 21 by 21, the Plume,

like all these other bags that like these like undercover, like non Birkin and Kelly Hermes bags. She I'm like losing like minutes and minutes of my life, watching her bag tours. But I'm guessing conservatively that over the years, I would guess that her bag collection costs her, I'm going to guess half a million, five hundred thousand. And I would guess that if she were to resale it tomorrow, like on,

I bet you it would be worth like. 2.5, especially if she has like a following too. And they are like rare. Her bags are rare and vintage and cool as fuck, but she doesn't even resell them because she's too classy to, and she didn't make stupid mistakes like buying bags she didn't like. Like, whereas like I bought bags I didn't care about. Thank God I didn't do that with like, I really do like my Hermes bags. Like I joke that I'll just like live in them if I go like broke bankrupt

and like end up like houseless. Like I will literally live in them. I'll sew them together and like find like a secluded place in the woods where I don't get like robbed for my Birkins. But yeah, I don't know where, like robbed for my Birkins. But yeah, I don't know where that came from. I freaked out. No, it's just I, we were talking about the vulnerability of you being open about your money and I just really appreciate it. And it's also again, like, I love that. And again, you don't need my permission, but like, you're allowed to spend money on the things that you

love as long as it's an informed choice, right? Because the last thing I want for you, yeah, but no, the last thing I want for you is to spend money on something that you really, really are excited about, but then with a side of guilt. Like that's why I say it has to be an informed choice, because I joke, like nothing tastes worse than a pina colada on a beach with a side of guilt. Because like that's what's happening when you just spend money without knowing if you can't afford it, is that the very things when you just spend money without knowing if you can afford it, is that the very things that you were actually looking forward to

or the very things that you were prioritizing, then have this massive asterisk on them. And so, yeah, it's like, great. I did that with this house. I did it with this house. Like, because now it's just this, like, behemoth of this, like, thing. I was like, oh, that was... That was a mistake. But I still love her.

It's just too much pressure. Well, and you learn you guys, we're going to land on our feet. We did. Yeah. You learn and you figure it out. OK, my last question for you. When we're talking about. Being a member of a minority group, whether that's a woman, a queer person, a person of color, a disabled person,

I think you immediately become or are almost forced to become an activist for that group of people, even if you didn't ask for that. And you've become and are such a huge advocate for the LGBTQ plus community. How has that evolved for you when you also are trying to prioritize your own safety, your own joy, your own happiness, with also knowing, okay, there's something concrete that I can do to make a change here.

Does that question make sense? Yeah. I mean, I think it's kind of like reconciling my public, like my responsibility with like my personal life. And I think at least the way I like approach my platform and like my work-life balance is like, I'm just doing the best I can. And I always am kind of doing the best I can. I think if anything, there have been some areas in my career where I could have done more. I feel like I didn't do enough. There's been other times where I feel like I did like too much. But what the commonality was is that like, I've always just been trying to do the best that I can.

And I read this really interesting book about like yoga and vegetarianism after I read that book, Skinny Bitch, when I was 22. And it turned me into a militant vegan for like four years until I walked by like a seafood restaurant that had steamed clams and that I jumped off the vegan wagon and never got back on accidentally. But I still really value like their work

and like the lessons that I learned from them. But this woman who wrote this book called like yoga and vegetarianism, she was saying like, people are doing the best they can with what they know. And that always stuck with me. them. But this woman who wrote this book called a yoga and vegetarianism, she was saying like, people are doing the best they can with what they know. And that always stuck with me. And I think another thing that's really helped me is my this this girl who I've known since I was like 19, I worked at my first salon with her out of hair school. And now she works

with us on JVN hair. And I just like love her. She said told me this quote that like, I don't know if her husband invented it, but it's certainly the first time I've ever heard it. But he said like, don't attribute to malice what could be attributed to ignorance or fear. And so that made me like way less vitriolic against Republicans, because it is like, it isn't malice. I do think it's misinformation and fear and like propaganda that they've been exposed to. And so that has helped me feel like a little bit more hopeful and like, less angry and like more willing to engage. So that's kind of where I am. I love that. You have been first of all, so complimentary to me. Thank you. I promise I love you.

I do not pay you to say any of this. You guys, we didn't pre-pro any of this. I just, I really love you so much. I'm so grateful for your work. I just, I'm cheering you on so hard and I just, I just love you and just keep it up and just maybe turn off your DMs. Do not let these fucking insel-ass times stem your shine.

But you know what's interesting, Tori? I really, that's like, I mean, just from like, you can keep this or like kind of not, or it's like whatever you want, but one thing I feel like I really have learned from the last like seven years of being such a public person. Yeah, is like and I've heard like other like celebrities or like famous public figures, politicians, just people talk about this, that it's like

the more public you get, the less of yourself you share because the criticism is so intense, like just the unsolicited critiques for people are so intense. But I realize what that's done to me is that, like, I curated and I have censored myself, like, for the negative voices. Instead of all the positive voices that were supporting me, cheering me on, wanting me to be more of me, I've gotten rid of more of my authentic self

to avoid potential criticism from people that were never going to like me anyway. They were never going to give me kudos anyway. They were going to shit on me for whatever reason, no matter what. And what that has cost me is growth, because I see other people that started at a similar time as me that have like continued to go higher, whereas I kind of have been around the same place. And I'm still picking up the pieces of like,

betraying my sense of self for negative feedback from people that never gave a fuck in the first place. Which how you show up for your causes or your platform or whatever, that's all gonna be impacted by how you feel about yourself from this unsolicited feedback. So not engaging in that unsolicited feedback or engaging more in the positive

than the people who are fucking assholes. Not that you should be above criticism, but like, because obviously, but it's like, you're not an idiot in either of mine, and we are self-aware, and when we fuck up, we know that we did, and we can explore that without like a fucking internet pylon by people who do not give a shit about you,

and never did. You know? I think for me with the incel, and we're talking about a video a fucking internet pile on by people who like do not give a shit about you and never did. Yeah. You know, I think I think for me with the in cell and we're talking about a video that I posted last week where yeah, it was just the cadence because it happens all of the time for me and I know it happens all the time for you. And I truly am okay. Like I'm not just saying that like, does it hurt sometimes?

Absolutely. But it hurts more when it's from people who, like I think I'm largely aligned with, that's the stuff that hurts more when it's from women. Yes, I've always had that too. The men I don't care about. It was more just the, it was every five seconds. So it felt like I was watching waves come in,

normally it's just waves, that was a tsunami. That felt like all of us. It was a pylon. It was. That is a pylon. And it continues to be. And so for me, what I've realized, That was a tsunami. That felt like all of us. It was a pylon. It was. That is a pylon. It continues to be. And so for me, what I've realized, so I turned 30 last July and I got a bunch of my friends together and I went to dinner and it was so nice.

And I was like, this is my gift to you. Is this really, really nice, like six course dinner? And it was so lovely. And one of my friends who had flown out, again, so kind, literally looked at me and she's like, hey, so what is your goal for your 30s? Like, what is your biggest thing? And I was like, my goal for my 30s

is being okay being misunderstood. Like, that's my goal for my 30s, is being okay being misunderstood because I know that I'm a good person. I know that I'm a good daughter and I know that I'm a good daughter and a good partner and a good friend and a good leader. And am I going to fuck up? Absolutely, because I am human. But I also don't have to prove myself to you. I don't have to prove myself to someone who I have not built a mutual sense of trust and vulnerability with.

I think with especially a lot of the men you were just saying, like, I was never going to win them over. And I'm like, I'm never going to win them over. And I'm also not going to win over somebody who, quote unquote, used to follow me, but she's changed or like whatever feedback they give me in that way. I'm like, you don't really know me. I don't really know you. I am OK being misunderstood. And that is my goal is, I think I've gotten there

way more than I was even a couple years ago, but throughout the rest of this decade, that is my goal. Three things really fast that just that resonated so hard. I interviewed this incredible queer historian on the pod last summer when I was like really going through it. And he said this thing to me that like really fucking changed my life and it's kind of what you just said. But he said to me, find the courage to be disliked.

And I just started like bawling. Like bawling. So I was like, oh my God, like that's really, the people pleaser in me like just does not, does not cope with that. And I also, when you were saying it's like the women that like it hurts worse, when you were saying it's like the women that like, it hurts worse. The criticism from like the queer community or like the left for me

is way more painful than the right. So that also really resonates. But it's actually that it was precisely the point that I was trying to get through to you is, do not dim your shine or quiet yourself down or not share about what you were. Like don't stop being who you are to curtail yourselves from those ones specifically.

Fuck the incels. But it's like, I really found myself censoring myself, especially around the election because of criticism from the left about like how I had phrased something or how I had spoken to a political issue on TikTok. So I just shut the fuck up. And I was so quiet in 2024 compared to like 2022, 2020,

like every midterm, every presidential election. And I really allowed myself from the criticism to just diminish and become so small. And it really impacted my growth, my business. And I think some of me needed that. Like I needed that experience universally or whatever to like learn the lessons I was supposed to learn. But I don't want you to fall into that trap because like, as you, like, I have learned so much from you and so many other people have too. And just like, let's not, it's our survival instinct that makes us notice the negative comments

because that's the snake and the Serengeti that's gonna kill you. The fuzzy positive feedback is the rabbit and like that rabbit's not gonna kill you. So our brains haven't evolved to like, be threatened by positive feedback. So like, that's why negative feedback gets more attention, but just do not fall into that

because you are literally changing lives. You've changed my life. You're changing other people's lives. So keep being you. I also need to take that advice myself, but like, please girl, like you, you turn my fucking Titanic around girl. You like put in the goddamn,

I was like eight decisions away from being like episode one of Schitt's Creek, but not tax evasion, just impulse spending. So literally, like, you really did help me like you changed my life. So you are that bitch, you will always be that bitch. And will you do everything right? No, but don't let those negative ass fucking Nansies who are having a bad day that try to shit on you on Instagram. They're probably like anti-vaxxing tradwives. Fuck them. Yeah. Thank you. And I that's how I feel about your work. I every time I listen to your show, I am so inspired by the conversations you have. I am so looking

forward to getting to know you better too, in real life. And I just admire you and your work deeply and your courage because y'all it is not easy to keep showing up when people are mad at you. It is not easy to keep showing up when you feel or are literally being threatened. It is not an easy thing and one thing that somebody who's not on the internet or is not a public person will never understand is the feeling in your nervous system between somebody standing outside your door with a pitchfork and a torch, and somebody screaming at you on the internet, your body does not know the difference.

It is the same feeling. And so, I just admire you so deeply. I admire your vulnerability. I admire you showing up and standing up for what you believe. Plug away, my friend. Tell us about where we can find more about you. I just love you so much.

Thank you so much for having me on. If you like this, we do Getting Better every Wednesday. That's my pod. You can like watch on YouTube or listen to it wherever you get your podcast. We do our Monday edit, which is like on Mondays, obviously it's like the behind the scenes. It's me and our senior producer, Chris. And that's giving like a little news coverage, a little BTS, a little like listener questions. It's like a little snack. It's like a little fun snack to like look forward to because everything's so sad.

So it's just like queer like fun-ness on Mondays. So that's kind of the biggest thing that I'm, I'm also on tour at the moment on my, this is my fourth standup tour. It's like, I'm working on the new hour material, which has been really fun. It's kind of about like dealing with like the fallout from the election and like how we're going to get

through the next four years. But it's about like safe spaces, queer joy, dealing with men, hilariously. Queer Eye is, I think we're coming back for season 10, which I'll be filming again soon. Yay, wow! Which I'm really excited for. Yeah, season 10. It's crazy.

I've been doing this for a little bit. But I love it so much. That's what's on my agenda. I love it. Thank you. Thank you for being here. I love you. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much to Jonathan for joining us and for their incredible transparency. I hope this inspires you to talk more about money. We need people talking about money.

You need to be talking about money with your friends, with your partner, with your coworkers. And this conversation was one such a testament to how important our work is. I was so humbled to hear about how much my work and financial feminists has impacted Jonathan's journey, but also a commitment or a recommitment for us to take our financial education seriously and to take talking about money seriously too. You can check out Jonathan's podcast, Getting Better. There's an episode with me on there as well. And you can watch Queer Eye on Netflix. You know where to go.

You know where to find the most heartwarming show that's ever been created. And thank you again to Jonathan for joining us. If you love the show, you can subscribe, you can share it with your friends. And if you're watching us on YouTube, welcome. I hope you stick around. Thanks for being here. We appreciate you supporting Feminist Media. Thank you for being here and we'll talk to you soon. Okay, bye. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.

If you're confused about your personal finances and you're wondering where to start, go to herfirst100k.com slash quiz for a free personalized money plan. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamesha Grant. Research by Sarah Shortino. Audio and video engineering by Elissa Midcalf. Marketing and operations by Karina Patel and Amanda LeFeu. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100k. Kaylin Sprenkel, Masha Bakhmakeva, Sasha Bonar, Ray Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Darrell Anne Ingman, Shelby Duclos, Megan Walker, and Jess Hawks. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the

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