Financial Feminist - 248. Is Traditional Retirement a Scam?! (What to Do Instead) with Jillian Johnsrud

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

What if everything you’ve been told about retirement is a lie? For years, we’ve been sold the idea that we should grind it out for 40+ years and finally start enjoying life at 65 — but what if that model is broken? In this episode, I’m joined by author and financial coach Jillian Johnsrud to talk about why the traditional retirement plan is failing us and how mini-retirements can give you freedom, fulfillment, and even more money along the way. We’re unpacking exactly how to afford extended breaks, how to negotiate time off without tanking your career, and why rest is one of the smartest investments you can make.  Jillian’s links: Website: https://retireoften.com/ Book: https://lnk.to/retireoften Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jillianjohnsrud/ Planning worksheet: https://retireoften.com/mini/  Negotiating worksheet: https://retireoften.com/onemonth/  Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/is-traditional-retirement-a-scam/ Looking for accountability, live coaching, and deeper financial education? Check out our exclusive community! Join the $100K Club: https://herfirst100k.com/100k-pod   Our favorite travel and cash-back credit cards, plus other financial resources: https://herfirst100k.com/tools Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Special thanks to our sponsors: Squarespace Go to www.squarespace.com/FFPOD to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase. Indeed Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com/FFPOD. Rocket Money Stop wasting money on things you don’t use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com/FFPOD. Quince For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince. Go to Quince.com/FFPOD for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Netsuite If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, download the free e-book Navigating Global Trade: 3 Insights for Leaders at NetSuite.com/FFPOD. ZocDoc Visit Zocdoc.com/FFPOD to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. Saily Get an exclusive 15% discount on Saily eSIM data plans! Go to Saily.com/FFPOD download the Saily app and use code 'FFPOD' at checkout. Masterclass Get at least 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/FFPOD. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if you could take a real break from work? We're not just talking a vacation that's a week long, but months, if not years, and still come back to a career you love. I'm talking to author and financial coach Jillian Johns Rood, and she is an expert on what's called mini retirements. Taking the time between jobs to help find a better job can massively increase their lifetime earning potential. Short-term, intentional breaks for work that help you recharge your energy, build a better career, and finally do the things you've been putting off for someday. A mini return can help you not just rest and recover from burnout, but, like, have motivation. We're breaking down how you can afford it, how to negotiate time off without blowing things up with your boss,

and why rest is one of the smartest investments you can make if you want to make more money and actually protect your peace. I don't know about you, but when I first started my career at 22 and realized that that was what I was going to be doing, sitting in a windowless office, hating my life for the next 40 years, I want it out and realized I couldn't. You're building skills or you're investing in yourself in a way that will continue to pay dividends for the rest of our lives. Many retirements are the answer to us feeling stressed out and overwhelmed by hustle culture. And they're more doable than you think. So if you've ever wondered how you can actually take meaningful time off work before you're 65, this is the episode for you. Before we get into the episode today, I wanted to share something really, really exciting with you.

If you've ever wanted to be a business owner or take your side hustle to the next level, I'm bringing back, my signature business boot camp program with my friend and fellow entrepreneur, Mallory Rowan. If you've considered yourself a entrepreneur and you know that corporate life is not for you, you don't like your job, you don't like the mission of the company you're working for it, you hate commutes, you hate having to sit at a desk for 40 plus hours a week, then this is for you. If you are stuck figuring out what your offer should be, how to get your business off the ground, and how to scale it, this boot camp is for you. We're helping you go from idea to income in 90 days or less.

More details coming soon, but for now you can go to her first hundredk.com slash biz dash waitlist to get all of the information first. That's B-I-Z-Watlist, and we'd love to see you there. But first, a word from our sponsors. This episode of Financial Feminist is sponsored in part by Squarespace, Rocket Money, NetSuite, and Masterclass. Whether it's for a brand, portfolio, or store, Squarespace makes it easy. head over to Squarespace.com slash FFPod and use code FFPod for 10% off your first purchase.

Stop paying for subscriptions you forgot about. Rocket Money finds and cancels them for you. Go to rocketmoney.com slash ff pod to take control of your finances. Running a growing business, NetSuite helps you manage it all in one place. Download the free CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com slash ffpod. Learn from the best to become your best with Masterclass. Get 15% off any annual membership at Masterclass.com slash FFPod. If you're serious about investing, you need to know about public. What sets public apart is how they give you the tools to make informed investment decisions. They built their AI tool called

alpha, and it doesn't just tell you if a certain investment is performing well. It tells you why the performance is happening. So you can really understand what's driving your performance and your portfolio. The best thing about public, though, and the reason I'm really talking about them is their retirement accounts. You can open up an IRA, whether that's a Roth IRA, a traditional IRA and Public is the place to do it. You can fund your account in five minutes or less at public.com slash ff pod and get up to $10,000 when you transfer your old portfolio over. That's public.com slash ff pod paid for by public investing. All investing involves the risk of loss, including loss of principle, broker services for U.S. listed registered securities, options, and bonds in a

self-directed account are offered by Public Investing Inc. member FINRA and SIPC. Complete Disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. So you say that many retirements aren't just about rest. They're rocket fuel for your life in your career. What's so powerful about pressing pause and taking a mini retirement? Well, a mini retirement can be like a Swiss Army knife. It can fulfill a lot of different functions. So for a lot of people, it's one of the best ways to increase their lifetime earning potential to get substantial raises. I mean, in our current economy, that traditional model of you're going to work 40 years in the same career, in the same company, and you're going to get a pension, and then you're going to retire for the rest of your life. Like, that's just not our reality anymore. Yeah.

So your best chance to get a substantial raise, to get a substantial promotion is by switching careers. And if you can take, between jobs, between employment, if you can take a break and rest and recover and come back like awesome and 100% and do even better in your next job, I think this is, this is the model moving forward of frequent. breaks, frequent rest, invest in yourself, in your health, in your career, in your education, in your financial life, and then go back to the next thing. Can you paint a picture of what your life looked like before many retirements? Like, what did it look like day to day? How were you feeling before doing this? So this was kind of my plan from the beginning.

You know, I got married when I was 19. My ex and I, we had $55,000 of debt and we went into low-earning professions. So that's a winning combination. So I never had any aspirations to retire early because I didn't think that was even possible. That seemed craziness to me. So the idea was always like, what if we took these mini retirements? What if we took little sabbaticals? Because we had these big goals and these dreams that I knew we weren't going to fit alongside a nine to five, stuff that we couldn't do in nights and weekends. So this was kind of always the plan. It took probably, it probably took about five years though before we got to do our first one because we had to pay through all of that debt, build an emergency fund, start investing, just get those basic financials in order. You had mentioned this idea of the traditional retirement, and I want to spend some time on that because I remember my first job out of college. I was 22, right?

So I am very young. I'm in my first job. And probably six months in, I'm like, am I supposed to do this for the next 40 years? Like, is this my life for the next 40 years? And I think almost everybody listening feels that way. And to your point, traditional retirement, the way we view it as society, it is, okay, you work really, really hard for those 40 years. and then hopefully maybe you get to retire on a beach with a pension. But what are we getting wrong about traditional retirement as a society?

I think one of the big errors and fallacies is that I can postpone all of these goals, all of these dreams, all these things that matter to me until I'm 65. Yeah. And that'll work out great. It won't. I mean, there's a lot of things that you have a season in life to do a thing. And if you don't do it then, it's not going to wait until you're 65. And that might be, that might be sleeping in youth hostels. That might be hiking the Camino. That might be doing a big road trip with your kids when they're little. That might be like traveling, you know, with your spouse before you have kids,

like, or going to Ireland and hiking with your parents. Like, there's all these things you might want do and you can't push a mole till you're 65. They'll have passed you by. And I think there's this kind of belief that, oh, I'll be financially well when I'm 65 or I'll rely on like government programs or again, pensions. And I'm like, I don't think I know anybody with a pension. Like, especially in like my generation. Like, is anybody getting a pension? I don't think so. And even the people who are, I think, feel like those pensions are constantly threatened of like, is this actually going to be fulfilled? So financially, what are we getting wrong about waiting until we're 65 in order to experience life? There is a real risk, especially as our economy changes.

Like, our wages versus our cost of living are different than they were 30 years ago. and they might continue to be different. So I think this hope of you'll absolutely, you're guaranteed to be able to retire at 65, that might not be true. It might not be true now, but it definitely might not be true in 20 years. And our lifespans are increasing.

You might be working until 70 or 75. I wouldn't be surprised at all if, you know, in 40 years, there's a lot of 80-year-old still in the workforce in some capacity. And so if you're going to be working longer, why not take smaller breaks? Why not enjoy those little moments of a month, three months, here and there in each decade of your life? So that when you're 65 or 70, you're not like, oh my gosh, I have to catch up on an entire lifetime of experiences that I've let pass me by. You're like, no, I did a whole bunch of really cool crap. Every three or four years, I took a month. month off or three months off and I've got these 20 cool adventures that I did like I'm very content continuing to work part time or to do consulting or to do all these different things that not only bring in money, but when you're 65, 70, if you can let the money that you've invested continue to compound for another five years, it can make a radical difference in how much you have as that yearly income in retirement. totally we just talked about this on another episode but I think so many people get to 65 or you know or in their 40s or 50s and trying to save for retirement and they go well I only have until I'm 65 no you don't you're not taking all your money out the day after you quit your job you're not liquidating all of your money from the stock market you have an additional 5 10 maybe 15 20 years depending on how long you live to be able to continue to allow compound interest to work for you so I think that's a really important distinction okay so what's What's the actual difference between like a sabbatical and a mini retirement? Is there a distinction? Are they two sides of the same coin? So there's a lot of different names you can use. And I think they all have slightly different connotations to different people, whether you call it like a gap year. People might assume that's a year or a sabbatical. Like you're going to come back to a professional, a hiatus, a career break, a micro retirement. I, so whatever word works for you, like go with that. Whatever you're like, I'm, I'm, I'm resident.

with this one. I define a mini retirement. I like it because it's kind of the most neutral. It doesn't have a ton of connotations. But as a month or longer, stepping away from your primary career, you're kind of 95. And then the third thing, to focus on something that matters to you. So if you kind of get those three elements, I think that's what really unlock something that can be kind of life changing. One of the fascinating things from your book is the idea that many retirements aren't just a break from life. They're career accelerators. And you were mentioning this too. Can we talk about how taking this break that might feel counterintuitive like, oh my gosh, I'm going to take time off work. I'm not going to make money potentially or I'm not going to get that promotion because I didn't

reach my four year mark or whatever. Like how is this actually something that can launch your career further and making more money long term. Yeah, there's a number of different ways you can utilize this. And one of the reasons I call the book Retire Often versus like take one epic mini retirement is that by doing this frequently, you can give a different purpose to every mini retirement. So you don't have to do 20 different things in one. And you can do 20 different things just 20 different times. So for some people, you know, taking the time between jobs to help find a better job, a better paying job, a better fitting job can massively increase their lifetime earning potential. I had a friend who took a year off and when he came back to his next job,

it was a 50% increase over his last pay, which you're like, oh my gosh, that's like an amazing win. nay, nay. Why did he get a 50% increase? Because he had been at the last company for 15 years. So he had been underpaid, under his market value for years and years and years. And to be a little bit of a numbers geek, let's say he was making 100,000 before when he came back at 150 for eight years. He left $400,000 on the table. people, even if his year off cost him $100,000, that's $300,000. Okay, if you've 40 and invest in extra $300,000, not only was like your life a little bit more boring because you didn't get to do all these cool things, but you're probably a million dollars poorer. So that's a big factor. Another one, especially for women, if you feel like you have a lot of obligations outside of your 9 to 5.

If you have a lot of family or just other things that demand your time, is it can be harder compared to your colleagues who maybe have less demands on their time to do additional training, to do additional certifications, to take classes, to read books, like to listen to the podcast and implement, to do the therapy, to do all the things that would make you even better and more qualified at your job, you might just not have the same access. So giving yourself this break to focus on those things and create more quality can be massively helpful. And the third big thing is that sometimes we just get tired. I think especially as women we get tired. Yes. And a mini return can help you not just rest and

recover from burnout, but like have motivation, have excitement, have creativity, have enthusiasm that you can bring that energy to work. And I liken it to, you know, if you run like a 400 meter race, if you do something, let's say you take a month off and you come back 10% faster, 10% faster than everyone else. You don't win 10% more races. You win all the races. And in some professions, being 10% better matters a lot. And it matters in your income and it matters in your career progression and it matters in your sales. Like sometimes being the best is a huge advantage to you professionally and financially. Even if you're just 10% better than you were the month before. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So how do we actually do this? Like that's my simple question. Like

Practically, how do we actually do this? Because I can hear the listener who's going, yeah, this isn't for me. I can't do this. I can't take time off work. My boss will never allow it. Like, how do I actually plan to do this in a way where I'm not going to lose a bunch of money and where it actually feels fulfilling? Okay. Do we want to start financial or career? Because I think those are usually people's too big questions. Like, how do I afford it or how do I take the time off? I mean, let's definitely do both, but let's do maybe financial first. Yes. This conversation is already so good, and I'm interested to know if you're someone who's considered taking a sabbatical or a mini retirement. If you're listening on Spotify, let us know in the comments, or if you're watching on YouTube.

When we come back, we're talking about the logistics of planning for many retirements, including how to start small, how to talk to your employer about taking that mini retirement, and how to start implementing this idea sooner rather than later. We'll be right back. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. one of the biggest things I hear from people who want to be business owners is they don't know where to start. They're like, I don't know what to do. I'm so overwhelmed. I want to start this business, but I need a logo and I need brand colors and they make a million excuses to prevent them from getting started because they're too afraid of failure. They're too afraid of their business failing. And I've done the research for you. Squarespace. Squarespace is what you need to start

that business finally. Squarespace was the first investment I made in my business way back in 2016 and they make it so easy for you to get a custom website without having to know how to code and without spending thousands and thousands of dollars. Squarespace has a bunch of stuff in addition to their website features. The best thing about Squarespace is they're saving you money and a bunch of other things. They're helping you design emails using their email campaign tool. They're helping you set up SEO tools with website optimization that is built into Squarespace and they help you offer your services so you can get paid all in one place. You don't have to use another third party platform. If you're ready to start that business and you want to save money, Squarespace is the place

for you. Go to Squarespace.com slash FFPod for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code SFPod to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. 85% of people have at least one paid subscription going unused each month. That might be you. You might be part of that 85%. But Rocket Money is here to help. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you. They automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save. Then you can ask them to negotiate for you. They're going to deal with customer service so you don't have to get on the phone.

One of the things I love about Rocket Money is you can see all of your subscriptions in one place and know exactly where your money is going. And for the ones that you don't want anymore, Rocket Money just helps me cancel them. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of 500 million, that is half a billion, and canceled subscriptions, saving memory. numbers up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with RocketMoney. Go to RocketMoney.com slash FFPod today. That's rocketmoney.com slash ff pod. Rocketmoney.com slash ff pod. So I have this radical belief that many retirements are accessible for

basically everyone. Like if you've figured out your finances to where you can pay your bills month, month to month, you can probably afford to do this. They're less expensive than people usually imagine. I would say your max budget should be covering your monthly expenses, so kind of whatever your take-home pay is, plus an additional 50%. So if you only bring home $2,000, you should have that $2,000 plus an extra $1,000, where if you are bringing home $10,000, you need to cover that $10,000 plus an extra $5,000 to pay for this mini-retirement adventure. So one of the reasons they're affordable is that it scales. And usually people who bring home 2000 are kind of used to that lifestyle and like that

standard of living and people who make $10,000 are used to that lifestyle and that standard of living. So you're kind of doing things that fit what you normally do anyway. So if you bring home 2000, should you take an $80,000 around the world cruise? Maybe not. Maybe that's not the thing for you. Like maybe it's road trip. Maybe you learn guitar. Maybe you plant a garden. Like there's lots of really cool things. I took a month off last year and I learned tango for a month. And it was amazing. I gave myself a thousand dollar budget. And I spent a whole month learning tango. And I'm like, I'm so obsessed. I'm so obsessed with it. I realize I'm doing a mini retirement in February. I'm taking a month. off to go to Italy and do a cooking intensive. Yeah. And I wouldn't have phrased that as a mini retirement, but you've just made me do that. So I love that. Yeah, that's what I'm planning on doing because I'm taking a whole month off. I'm not working at all. And I'm going to go learn to cook

in Italy when I'm so excited. I'm so excited. It's so fun. But also that's like both of these are really great examples of like these are an investment. Yeah. In your life moving forward. like you're building skills or you're investing in yourself in a way that will continue to pay dividends like learning to dance or learning to cook like super useful for the rest of our lives and also just joyful and fun yes yeah yeah okay anything other financial that we need to think about on the financial so i would think about that especially if you're starting out and you're kind of earlier in your financial journey i would think through what are like 20 cool adventures you would want to do What are 20 things that would be interesting or useful or beneficial?

Front load the affordable ones. The Around the World cruise, you can totally do that when you're 70. Like 70-year-olds love to go on cruises. Do the affordable ones, do the ones that fit into this season of life? You know, in my 20s, I did a cross-country road trip, D.C. to Seattle and back with my best friend in my green Honda Civic. And, like, we camped and we slept on people's couches. It was so fun, and I'm totally not doing that again. Really glad I did at my 20s, but I don't, I'm 42.

I don't sleep on the frozen ground anymore. And my body requires vegetables, so I can't just eat like popcorn from a gas station. Totally. Diet Coke's just 10 Diet Coke's today. So kind of front-load the affordable ones, but also you can front-load the ones that are going to help you get a better job that are going to increase your earning potential or the ones that are just going to make you more money. Like, if you want to start a side hustle and if you would love to have a month off or three months off to really help scale that up, do that one in your 20s because you might not want to do that one at 65. Like, you can front load the ones that are most useful and then create, I call it like a dream

all-a-car budget. Like, if you have this adventure of like, let's say for my tango, I was like, okay, I'm going I do group lessons. I'm going to do private lessons. I'm going to go to this tango festival. I listed out, I'm going to buy tango shoes. I listed out all of these expenses. Put that in just like a spreadsheet because that as you're not even saving money, as you're like reallocating money, it's not towards this huge $3,000 goal or $10,000 goal. You're like, yeah, I'm going to skip like my kind of boring Chipotle Breedable that I get every Friday because next year I'm going to be in Mexico learning Spanish and eating street tacos.

So I'm going to trade this one for that one and it feels a little bit more tangible. And you can see, hey, actually, if I, I wasn't sure if I wanted to take this like dog sitting gig this weekend. But if I do, that would like buy my plane ticket from Frankfurt to Paris. So yeah, yeah, I'll totally do that. Okay, so that leads me to career. Am I going into my boss's office and being like, ding, dong, give me a month off? Like, how does this work? Like, what do I do?

Yeah. So there's three ways that you can get this time off. You can negotiate it off from your employer. And that, I think that's a great place to start. I always suggest starting with a month. I mean, some people jump into women every time. I'm going to do two years in my first round. Like, you can totally just start with a month.

So you can negotiate it off. You can take time off in between jobs. either you don't have something lined up if it's a little bit longer or you've gotten your next job and you just ask to delay that start a little bit, which can be great if you're nervous about finding your next job or something unexpected can happen. Life can throw you a curveball, usually bad, and you might be suddenly unemployed and you're like, hey, let's pivot this to a mini retirement. In which case I have kind of like a mini retirement go bag idea that we can talk about. But if you want to negotiate it off. Do not make this your boss's problem. They have enough problems. They're busy and

their plate is full and they have their own damn job to do. Like this is not also their job. So you have to do the emotional labor. You have to do the mental labor of like what are all the challenges and come up with solutions? Think about those challenges. And then honestly, in this process, articulate that for them. Sometimes, sometimes people are hesitant to tell you what the problem is. So if you articulate the problem for them, you can move faster into this creative, collaborative space where you're problem solving. But the first thing I have people do is come up with their mini retirement story because you want to create this narrative. You want to frame the story in the way that's true, but also helpful for you. Because you don't want them to rely on whatever their assumptions are. And so I have people, like, four things. It has to be positive. You can't go in to be like, I'm so burned out. And I cannot look at any of y'all's ugly faces anymore. Like, I need them on top. Like, we need to make it a positive story. Ideally, interesting. Like, learning cooking in Italy, super interesting. Not just like, I want to go home and

like watch Netflix. And then specific, which is something sometimes people don't think about. But instead of like, I just want to spend more time with my kids saying something like I, like something that I had done, I did a 10 week road trip to 10 national parks with my kids. It's a very specific way that we're spending more quality time together. And then ideally, something that feels like a one time event. So I'm going for my 50th birthday, I'm going to like go run this triathlon or I'm going to go hike the Camino or I'm taking cooking classes in Italy or I'm going to volunteer with Habitat for humanity. Like, You're not like, yeah, people hike Kilimanjaro every year. No, they probably do that once, and it's awesome, and then they move on with their lives. So if you frame those kind of four elements, if possible, and it can sound like, for example, if you went and said, hey, so, you know, my parents, when they retired, they always plan to, like, bike through France, and that's been a big dream for them. As you know, my dad passed away a few years ago, but my mom is turning 60 this year, and she set to retire. I would love to be able to do this trip with her while she's still young and healthy and have this really great quality time with her. I have a week of PTO. I would need an extra three weeks. I can take that off unpaid in order to accomplish this and have this experience with my mom. And then you just say, like, I know that there's some of these challenges, but I've also come up with a bunch of solutions that I think we can work through this. And when you frame it that way,

like you're talking to another human. It's another human being that like has similar goals and values and dreams as you. And it's real tough for them to be like, nah, let's not. Right. How do you position it in a way that isn't just, I'm giving more work to my favorite coworker or like they're going to have to cover me for those three weeks or even if it's a longer period of time, oh, you're going to have to hire somebody to, you know, replace me. Like, how do we think about, do we present that to our boss? Like, I've already thought about the distribution of labor. Like, how do we go about thinking that way? I think it is important to think through the logistics of how can this work. What are different solutions? And you don't have to come in with a buttoned up plan. There's my 100 point slideshow of how exactly

this is going to work. But enough to show, I know that this is going to create some challenges, but I have all of these potential solutions. And if you think you might get a little resistance and if you're really committed to this, you can very subtly slide in the possibility that the alternative is you leaving. Because that changes the equation because they're not picking between you going on a mini retirement and that being inconvenient. Or I say no and nothing changes. either you go into mini-retirement, that's a little bit inconvenient, or I have to replace you, and that's super inconvenient. And your job is to make your mini-retirement the easiest, cheapest, simplest solution of the two. No, that's very smart because, yeah, replacing somebody is a lot

more expensive, especially as the person's great, and everybody is listening, does their job great. So, yeah, it's a lot harder, especially. as I'm speaking as an employer, a lot harder to replace somebody than it is to potentially figure out a solution, exactly. And riskier. Like, it's more expensive and there's risk. And this is a hang-up sometimes people have about negotiating it off, is they're like, I'm too important. My work's too essential. Nobody can do what I can do. Like, nobody can cover this. And I had a CFO at an event I spoke at being like, I would love a month off. I desperately need a month off, but there's no way they would give me a month off because I'm too important. And I was like,

yeah, cool, cool. If you left, how long would it take to replace you? Because, like, that's a really important role. That's really hard. He's like, yeah, that's like, it's like probably six months. I'm like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And when they find someone, how long does it take to get them up to speed to hopefully produce 80% of what you're doing? He's like, yeah, that's a long like another six months and I'm like okay so they could either give you a month off or they could take a year of this position not being fully filled and functional and the stress of that year totally and they might suck the new person might not be as good as you yeah and so there are you know for people I think that they're like I'm too important in reality if you couldn't go

into work tomorrow for whatever reason. They have to come up with some solution. There has to be some possible solution. It might not be as awesome as you being there, but there is a path forward. When we come back, we're talking about one of the biggest blocks we face going into time off, the demonization of rest and the prevalence of hustle culture. Thank you for supporting our sponsors. They allow us to do this show for you for free. We'll be right back. It is an interesting time to run a business. Between talks of terror, and trade policies and supply chains and just the talk of the recession coming. It's just a lot. And if your business can't adapt in real time, it's not going to be fun. It's not going to be fun to

keep running that business. So you need total visibility. And that's where NetSuite by Oracle comes in. They are trusted by over 42,000 businesses. And it's the number one cloud ERP for so many reasons. It's one of the things I'm going to look into using as I continue to grow our business, because you have one source of truth with NetSuite by Oracle. It gives you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. It helps you know what's stuck, what it's costing you, and how to pivot your business fast. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, download the free ebook, navigating global trade, three insights for leaders at net suite.com slash ff pod.

That's net suite.com slash ff pod. When you're a business owner, you need to hire people. That is one of my top tips for business owners, as we think we can do it all. And we can't. We have to hire people in order to grow. And Indeed is the best place to do it. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. You can stop struggling to get your job posting on other job sites because Indeed, sponsored jobs help you stand out and hire fast. Sponsored jobs on Indeed, made a huge difference. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed, have 45% more applications than non-sponsored jobs. And it's one of the things I love about Indeed. Plus, with Indeed sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long-term contracts, contracts and you only pay for results. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now

with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash ffpod. Just go to Indeed.com slash ffod right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash ff pod. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring. Indeed is all you need. So one of the things that we experience just living under capitalism is that rest equals laziness or that rest is bad. And especially as Americans, I think that this is like in our DNA. You go to Europe and they're like taking like three hour lunches and it doesn't fucking matter. But how do we kind of get over that or work through that knowing that everything in our bodies and in our brain?

is going, you didn't deserve this time off. Who do you think you are taking a month or six weeks off? I think there is this narrative. And it's especially prominent in certain communities. Like, I grew up in a farming ranching community where like literally a hundred years ago, if you didn't work hard all the time, everyone died. That was just a reality. You starved and you've literally Oregon Trail. Yeah, it's dysentery on the trail. Yeah. And culturally, there's these strong narratives around work. And that's one way to look at things. And I think that was a way that really was important 100 years ago, 200 years ago. That was a very helpful mindset that worked for our great grandparents. And maybe it worked for our grandparents. And maybe it worked really well for our parents. But it's not the only way to look at the situation. You know, in high school, I played. basketball. And we do a halftime, every game. Every single player does a half time. And you don't take this break because you're weak. You don't take it because you're lazy. You don't take it because you're

uncommitted to the outcome or you don't care about the game. You take it because it's the opposite of all of that because you're so passionate about the game because you're so committed to the outcome because you're so motivated that you know this is essential. If you want to show up in the second half and bring your absolute best, this is what you need to do to show up in that manner. And it's an opportunity. I think for a lot of people professionally, you need to rest, but you need to reimagine what this second half is going to look like.

Because I've definitely been in basketball games where like you're losing the whole first half and you're super discouraged. And it's really hard to be like, emotionally we're going to turn this thing around or we're going to show up as a different version of ourselves in the halftime in like a 30 second timeout. You need a couple minutes to regroup and reimagined what this can look like. And professionally it can be so important. Like, if you really care about your outcomes, if you really care about your work and the cause and your financial. life like why would you show up as like the B minus version of yourself? Yeah. I think there's this temptation to be like there's a lot of honor and suffering. Yeah. And I can just keep going. I can just

keep going. I'm doing okay. You know what? It's actually not that bad. I'm showing it but work. I'm doing pretty good work. And to be. No one's noticed. Yeah. Yeah. Not to just like be content with that, but to feel good about showing up as like this really tired, burned out, discouraged version of ourselves, like that's somehow better, better for us, better for people around us. You know, when if you get injured working out at the gym, there's a type of person that's like, I'm just going to keep going. I'm just going to keep doing that exercise that screws up my shoulder. Like, I'm going to push through it.

And then there's another person that says, huh, I got injured. maybe I should like take a couple weeks off and recover and then come back to the gym at a hundred percent so that I don't just spend my whole life injured and limping through it. And in pain, totally. Yeah. You have this amazing idea for how employers and business owners can implement many retirements into job structures as a benefit. We at her first hundred K actually offer a week off paid quarterly and then unlimited PTO to our full. full-time staff. And I say unlimited PTO, knowing that some people are going to be like, nobody takes time off. They do. This is not a startup unlimited PTO where no one actually takes time

off. What do you think would happen if every employee in the U.S. got a paid month off a year? Because that's what we end up doing. We give a week paid off a quarter. So they guarantee get a month off. So the 12th of the year, they're not working. So how would that change work, burnout, performance, retention? How would that change everything? I think it would change everything. I mean, there's so many. I put a whole chapter in the book of like, just real quick, 10 ideas of how this isn't just good for your employees. It's good for you as an employer. You mentioned retention. So if you imagine a person knows they're going to get a month off every year, as long as they work there, those people start, they start planning this out. Like, hey, how about next month, how about next year? We'd like, what if we take the whole family to Mexico? That would be really cool. The year after that, we could do that cooking class in Italy. And oh, my gosh, you know what? Then my parents, they're probably going to be retiring. What if we did a hiking

trip through Ireland with them? Like that way. And all of a sudden, they've got like the next seven years. Are they going to, they're not just leaving you as an employer. They're leaving those dreams. All of those things that they've imagined that they're excited about. If they walk away from your company, they're walking away from all of that. possibility. Yeah. And so there's a lot of in the, in the creativity, in the performance, in the excitement and the engagement, but also in the cross-training and in the resilience of your teams and in your company. In every company, there are some people who gather up all of the information and know all of the things and do all of the things. And they're amazing and they're such

high performers and we love them, but it makes everyone around them slightly more incompetent. And the only way we're going to distribute that information and that skill set is if we pluck these high performers out and kick them out for a month and make everyone else like step up and learn the things. No, that's so true. I didn't think about that. But then your company's more resilient because it's not just one person who knows all of the things. You have that motivation and you have that deadline to transfer that information. Let's say you have an employee that you're thinking about promoting into a role, but you're not 100% sure if they can do it. Well, the person who has that rule, send him on a mini retirement for a month and gives this person a chance.

Let him take over 60% of that person's role for the next month. See how they do. Test it out. Like, sample it before you make the commitment. And it's good for those employees because it's exciting to have that opportunity to stretch your skill set and to learn and to have that that additional training, it makes your work feel more dynamic. So it just, it has so many benefits. And I think that the companies that have a little bit more of that visionary mindset and that holistic mindset are going to say, this is going to be our competitive advantage. In 50 years, everyone will do this. But for the next 20, we're going to crush it and we're going to be the first out of the gate. Yeah. Okay. So one of the things I keep

thinking about as we're talking is how do we make sure we're doing this proactively and not as a, I am so tired and so burned out and I'm ready to burn my whole life down? Like how do we make sure that we're doing this in a way that is proactive as opposed to reactive so that we don't potentially look back and go, oh, I regret quitting my job that I actually kind of liked or at least tolerated because I was just like, I was just so tired. Yeah. I think it is one of the hopes. I hope even if people aren't like, I have my next mini retirement plan. I hope they read the book to get this vision of what it could look like, what this model could look like. What if I decided, I'm going to take a mini retirement every three years. And you're 24 and you're like, so two years in, I'm going to request, I'm going to negotiate a month off or I'm going to negotiate three months off. And then in between when I switch jobs, I'm going to take a three month gap. And that just becomes your standard operating procedure that every two years, every three years, every four years, you're like, this is going to be my rhythm. This is going to be how I,

I move through my career, I'm going to have periods of intense work and then intense rest. And the reality is some people enjoy that rhythm better. Some people function in that rhythm better. There's people who like the kind of hit workouts and there's people who like the slow and steady. And some people love working hard. They love being intense. They love being all in and super passionate. it. And that's amazing. But you have to counterbalance that with rest and periods where you fully disconnect. And I think I think I was a person that felt guilty about that, like being that way. And I was always trying to like just go 80%. Just like be more sustainable, go 80%, like have better boundaries instead of just being like, do this is who I am. Like I like to go beg and

then I like to like go home and do something else like totally and and make that part of of the plan yeah when I think about certain moments in my life that were supposed to be the vision I had yeah I think of like you know in my I was 20 19 20 I studied abroad and I remember thinking oh my gosh this is going to be incredible I was in Ireland and I'm going to be here and I'm going to be in Europe and it's just going to be great. And the first month of study abroad was one of the worst months of my life. Like, it was, it did not stop raining.

My Irish roommates were, like, dealing drugs out of my house. It was like, I really didn't have any close friends there. It was so isolating. And I was, like, cold and wet and miserable and not sleeping. And I remember thinking that whole time,

and again, I have matured enough to know that this is not necessarily, This is not helpful thinking. You should just be grateful you're here. Like, people would kill to be in Ireland. People would kill to be on a study abroad. You just need to suck it up and be grateful you're here. And one of the things that I love that you talk about in your work is it's like,

it's not always going to be rainbows and daisies and luxury and sitting by a beach with a little pool or umbrella in your drink. Like, it's not all going to be that. So can we talk about some of the challenges you've experienced? And how do we navigate those, especially if we've dreamed of this mini-retirement, and it's maybe not all it's cracked up to me? Yeah. I mean, I've been talking about this for so many years. So I've had the opportunity to talk to hundreds of people who've done many retirements. And it's funny because they have concerns going in. concerns usually around money and employment and health care. And that's not what goes off the rails. They're like, no, actually those things were fine. That worked out great. We had some other problems. And I think people can internalize that as like, this is a me problem. This is

really specific to me. This isn't something everyone else is going through. When in reality, there can be some really common challenges. One of those, is you might be more burned out than you think. The function of burnout, it's really, like, it's really incredible in a sense. Burnout is what allows us to move through a difficult thing to get out of it. You know, if you're in a war-term country and you have to like go somewhere else, if you have a famine, you have to like travel for six months, burnout will get you through that. And in part, it does it by making sure you don't. feel so tired that you just like lay down and die. Like it keeps you moving forward. But sometimes

once your body has access to rest, it fully feels how tired you've been. And so there can be a there can be a situation where people are like, I'm going to go in this mini retirement. I'm going to do a hundred things. And it's going to be awesome. And then their body senses, oh, we can sleep now. We can we can rest. and it like hardcore shuts down. But the problem is people internalize that is that it means something about them. And recovering from burnout can be a little bit

like recovering from the flu. And you're not motivated and you want to get up and you don't want to unload the dishwasher and you're tired and you want to rest. It would be crazy to be like, why am I so lazy? Why can't I function? Why am I not a motivated person?

Why am I not ambitious? Why am I not getting stuff done? Maybe it's because I'm not at work. Maybe works the reason that I can accomplish a lot as a human being. And without work, look at me, I just lay in bed and take naps. Like, no, you're recovering. People can create this whole narrative in their head about essentially how they're a bad person because they feel tired. And the helpful reframe, if you know that this can happen, if you're expecting, I might be more tired than I thought, is to go,

Huh. Man, I'm really tired. It's a good thing I can take a nap because I'm on a freaking mini retirement and just move on with your life. So even if you have like a bunch of plans and a bunch of travel, but you suspect you might be burned out, I tell people just travel a little bit slower. Be more flexible. Like don't over schedule it. Don't overcommit yourself. If you're not feeling motivated, like give yourself that day or two to just chill. allow and go to a cafe like you don't have to do all of the things right away but it's stuff like that that can really trip people up and take what should be a really incredible mini retirement and make it like ah this wasn't exactly what I was envisioning yeah I always think and I know Kristen will

feel the same way too especially as actors this would happen uh where it was just crazy this happened almost every time. I wouldn't get sick for the entire run of the show. And we do our last Sunday matinee and I'd wake up Monday and I'd feel like death. Like I'd have a sore throat. I'd have a fever. Like I would feel terrible. And it's like my body knew. It was like every time it was like, okay, we're getting you through the finish line and then I'm breaking down on you. And like that's literally what you're describing, which is like you go, you go, you go, you go. Your body sustains you till that point. And then the moment it gets rested, like, thank God, here we go. I'm going to give you everything. I'm going to give you the sore throat and the mucus. And here we go, buddy.

Like, you're just going to have to deal with that. But it's really remarkable. And I've never heard somebody phrase burnout that way, but you're exactly right. It's like the thing that's getting you through all the stuff. And the crazy thing is, is that especially in American culture, we can, if burnout is like allowing you to run away from the bear to get out of that situation, we go, hey, we're pretty, we're pretty good at running from bears, actually. I think we're doing an okay job. Maybe we should just run from bears all the time. And it's like, well, no, that's not, Burnout isn't helping you stay in a bad situation. Right, right. But now's trying to help get you out of it. It's trying to help get you through it. And so for the people who are like, but I think

I'm doing okay. Like I think I'm, I'm, you know what? I'm, I'm, you know what? I'm, surviving, like, burnout's trying to get you to someplace better. And so allowing ourselves to move through things instead of just staying stuck in places that we shouldn't be. Yeah. Okay. Let's say somebody listening is like, I absolutely can't do this for whatever reason they come up with. I just, I can't do this. Now, I think the first thing we would both say is like, you might be able to, even if you're telling yourself you can't. So actually explore that. But are there, like, ways we can live our lives or steps we can take to feel like, is it mini-retirement light?

You know, like, what ways can we experience what a mini-retirement has to offer, even if we can't take one? When we come back from break, we're finishing up our conversation with Jillian, where she answers what mini-retirement can look like for someone who thinks they truly cannot do it. See you soon. It is official, everybody. I am going on the cooking intensive. I know we've talked about it before. I've been dallying with the idea, but it is official. I've literally booked it. I'm filling out the forms right now. I am so excited. But boy, do my knife skills need work. So Masterclass is where I'm going to be turning to today. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. With plans starting at just $10 a month bill annually, you get unlimited access. to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs, and more. You get thousands of bite-sized lessons across 13 categories that can fit into even the busiest

schedules. So I'm going to Masterclass to learn knife skills from Gordon Ramsey. Not Dave Ramsey, Gordon Ramsey. It was a better teacher for teaching me how to use a knife properly than the chef himself, the king of chefs. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com slash ff pod. That's 15% off at masterclass.com slash ff pod. Masterclass.com slash ff pod. We all love a European summer. We love traveling, especially internationally. But I can't tell you the amount of times I've been stuck in a city and not known the exact address of the hotel or the Airbnb or the restaurant I'm supposed to be at because I'm not connected to Wi-Fi anymore. And that's where Saly can save you and I's

butts every single time. Saly is an ESIM where you download once so users don't have to install a new ESIM in each country. There's affordable prices. So you're not going to like a third party cell phone provider or going through your really expensive normal US or Canada based provider. It's also compatible with iOS or Android devices and there's chat support available 24-7. You can use Saly to immediately be able to access all of the information you need even if you're not on Wi-Fi. And if your device isn't ESIM compatible for whatever reason, you get a full refund. Get an exclusive 15% discount on Saly ESIM data plans. Download the Saly app and use code F-F-Pod at checkout. That's S-A-I-L-Y, use code F-F-Pod for 15% off.

I think there's a lot of benefits to practicing, to practicing whatever. the thing is that that intention that you want for your mini retirement, even if you can't imagine how this is going to transpire. Like I said, maybe, I think it's an Elizabeth Gilbert quote. She said sometimes when things are really bad, the prayer I always say is, Lord, please make this much, much worse. Is that a Liz Gilbert quote? I feel like I know all the Liz Gilbert quotes. That's so good. I'm literally going to go. it. Because sometimes, like, until something gets much, much worse, we won't, we won't act. We won't move. We won't get out of it. Like, we'll stay stuck. And so if things are really bad and

you can't imagine a mini retirement, things might get a whole lot worse. And then a mini retirement opens up. So I think starting to practice that because you never know. So if you want more adventure, like starting to adventure more. You know, if you're like, I want to do, I want to travel with my kids. One of the great ways to practice that is to leave your house at like 8 in the morning with your children and don't come home until 7 p.m. Figure it out. Figure out where you're going, how you keep everyone happy, how you keep everyone fed, how everyone gets their naps like how do you survive just in your community out doing fun things for a whole day um because then when that opportunity opens up uh either because you get laid off or you switch jobs or

your mom gets cancered and you need to take life like fmLA like whatever that is you'll have started moving in that direction and you're more ready to pivot into that that thing that you really want to do and need to do my final question for you what is one thing that somebody can do what's one step that they can take to get closer to that many retirement i would start by imagining what it is you want to do what are those dreams because you need to have to start with the motivation you have to start with the vision before you start with all the questions and all the logistics like is there a carrot because all of this stuff. I think in the book, I tried to do a really good job of like every concern, every fear,

here's the step by step. Here's exactly how you take care of this. And I think that it's very easy and doable. And it's a pain in the butt. It's a hassle. It's so much easier to just not change anything. Yeah, keep going with your life. Yeah. So starting with that vision of what would fit into this season of life, what do you feel like if we don't do this in the next five years, it's just going to pass us by. What's the thing that is important and urgent right now? What's the things that's not fitting into nights and weekends? And start to just journal about that vision board about it, talk to your friends about it,

however you kind of process that, because that's going to give you that motivation and clarity of, so what are the logistical steps that I need to do to get closer to that? I would also encourage people, anybody listening who is thinking about, like the cost of this, both, you know, financially, your career, like, oh, my gosh, what, how much time, the stress, the talking to my boss, like, the cost of that, the cost of you not doing it is going to be way worse. Like, the cost of you not taking a break, the cost of you not doing, hiking Machu Picchu while you're young and healthy versus waiting until you're 65, like the cost of not

thinking about this or planning it or trying at the very least, that's much worse. That's a way bigger price to pay than the logistics and the potential lack of earning for that month, right? Like, that's not the cost. The cost is you not doing this. And the reality is before you do it, the risk and the hassle feels enormous. Yeah. And the big. benefit feels like modest. You know, every time we used to do really big road trips every winter and leaving our house with all five kids for, you know, three to eight months is like such a pain in the butt in the two weeks before. I'm like, oh, dear God, what have I done? Like, this is so much work and I'm so stressed. And it feels so big. But the reality is with these many retirements

in the rearview mirror, after the fact, five years later, 20 years later, or 40 years later, when you look back, the further you get from it, the hassle, you kind of forget. It gets smaller and smaller and smaller. And the meaningfulness, the joy, the value it brought to your life, it expands. The further you get from it, the bigger those things feel. Like that 10-week trip to those 10 national parks, oh, God, I look back now, my kids were so itsy-bitsy. They were so little and adorable

And they just loved being with us so much And it was like And now like I mean I still love my kids But they're like junior high in high school And like it's a whole different vibe now And the meaningfulness that that feels Is honestly like 10 or 100 times more intense Than when I was even living it

Because when I was living it like It was snacks and diapers and strollers And making sure everyone had their coats And like But now I look back and I'm just like like, oh, God, I'm so glad we did that. Like, I will cherish that forever. Yeah. Yeah. Or you're making me a little teary. Yeah. And I think that's the feeling we want for everybody listening is both, you know, a great experience in the moment, or at least, you know,

you're learning something new. Maybe it's challenging, but it's a new experience. And that you can look back and be like, wow, I'm really glad I did that as opposed to making somebody my stupid boss richer. I'm really, really glad I did that. Okay, thank you so much. This has been so helpful. I'm so excited to wash everybody listening, take their own retirement, and hear what that is, their own mini-retirement. Where can people find out more about you and your book? Yeah, retire often.com.

You can find the book. I'm coaching. I've got a newsletter. It's super unhinged. So, like, if you like that sort of thing, I don't know. What's it about? I don't know. When do we send it?

No idea. It's a surprise to all of us. We're all surprised together. And on social media, I'm at Jillian Johns Rood. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much to Jillian for joining us. You can get her book, Retire Often, which has every single strategy we've talked about in even more detail. And I'm so excited to read it.

I got a copy coming to my house right now. Thank you, as always, for being here, financial feminists. Thank you for supporting feminist media. And if you aren't already watching on YouTube, we release all of these episodes in video format over on our YouTube channel. We would love to see you there. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being Financial Feminist, and we'll see you back here soon. Bye. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit Financial

Feministpodcast.com. If you're confused about your personal finances and you're wondering where to start, go to Her First 100K.com slash quiz for a free personalized money plan. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields and Tamisha Grant, research by Sarah Shortino, audio and video engineering by Alyssa Midcalf, marketing and operations by Karina Patel and Amanda Lefew. Special thanks to our team at her first 100K,

Caitlin Sprinkel, Mascha Bach-Mekyeva, Sasha Bonar, Ray Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Darrell Ann Ingman, Shelby Duclose, Megan Walker, and Jess Hawks. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen, A huge thanks to the entire her first 100K community for supporting our show.