Financial Feminist - 26. Allyship and Anti-Racism with Alyssa Hall

Episode Date: June 21, 2022

When the Black Lives Matter movement resurged in 2020, many of us began (or reignited) our anti-racism journey –– selling out books, posting black squares, marching, and donating. Unfortunately, as is often the case with allyship, burnout quickly sunk in for many of us. Today’s guest is here to help us find ways to make our allyship more sustainable and build it on a foundation of anti-racism and activism so we can continue to fight for equality and equity without the burnout.  Alyssa Hall is an Anti-Racism Consultant and Leadership Coach whose work with her clients focuses on strengthening the leadership skills needed in promoting an anti-racist environment. In addition, she ensures her clients continually uphold their values of diversity, equity, and inclusivity, which in turn brings them greater success in their lives and their businesses. Pre-Order “Financial Feminist: Overcome the Patriarchy’s Bullsh*t to Master Your Money and Build a Life You Love”: https://bit.ly/3PpHvlC Episode show notes: https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/  Follow Alyssa on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/arleadership/  Join the School of Anti-Racist Leadership: https://schoolofantiracistleadership.lpages.co/groupprogram/  Our HYSA recommendation [affiliate]: http://sofi.com/herfirst100k Follow Financial Feminist on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/financialfeministpodcast/  Follow Her First $100K on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/herfirst100k/ Looking for more actionable money advice? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://treasury.app/herfirst100k/money-journey-quiz  Leave Financial Feminist a voicemail: https://www.speakpipe.com/financialfeminist  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, financial feminists. Welcome back. I know it's hard to believe, but we have been doing almost two months of new episodes. We now have more new episodes in this period than we did last time. Like the first season, we only recorded six weeks of episodes. So we have now been podcasting for the longest consecutive time, which is very exciting for our team. And hopefully you're enjoying it. So if you're liking the new format, if you're liking the guests we've had, if you're like, I love this show and I wish more people would listen.

Best, best thing you can do besides directly sharing this with your friends and family, which I really encourage, is to rate and review us on your preferred podcasting platform. We very much appreciate it. It helps keep our show running, helps us continue to be able to give you six episodes a month. So we appreciate your support. Your reviews help us climb in the charts. And that's one of the best ways to spread our mission of financial feminism. And we also literally, guys, I check reviews every day. I don't know if y'all realize this. I literally go to Apple Podcasts. I go to our backend and I'm literally like, what review did we get today? And we love it when there's nice reviews and we hate it when there's

mean reviews. So if you love this podcast, leave us a review. And if you hate this podcast, say nothing. Say nothing. It's great. Say nothing. Okay. Team, if you saw the word anti-racist today and you were especially a white person, I'm going to guilt you into staying. You must stay. This is required. This is a required education for you as a fellow white person. This is required education. Okay. Guilting aside, this is an important episode for everybody and anybody. This is going to be as light of an episode as we can do about anti-racism because we want to make this conversation accessible to you. And when we talk about financial feminism, right, what we're really talking about is how systemic oppression affects how we manage our money. So this is why it's so important to be actively anti-racist as a key to our financial feminist journey. So today I'm so

excited to welcome Alyssa Hall. She is here to help us practice our anti-racism in a sustainable way. Alyssa Hall is an anti-racism coach, a mother, and a proud Cuban and African-American woman. She works with coaches and other service providers on their journey to becoming actively anti-racist, helping them become better allies, and working with them on making anti-racism a foundational piece of their business. In today's conversation, we talk about what got her into anti-racism work, some common pitfalls she sees not only in businesses, but also in individuals, and also how she makes her anti-racism work feel sustainable so that we can have a maximum impact. I remember, as I'm sure a lot of white people did back in

2020, feeling like you have to do everything and then feeling eventually overwhelmed and potentially even doing nothing. Anti-racism is a practice that is lifelong. You don't get to check it off the to-do list. It's something that we're constantly doing and it's constantly ebbing and flowing. And so in order to keep this practice something we're doing for our entire lives, Alyssa is really great at making that practice sustainable and really accessible. I really highly recommend this interview for business owners. But even if you're not a business owner, you will glean so much. And again, especially white people, this is a conversation that you need to listen up to. So without further ado, please welcome Melissa

Hall. it is so funny to me that you're in brooklyn and that i just missed you could have done this in person we just discovered before we started recording that uh alissa has been in and bk for the last week. And I'm also in BK. And for some reason, we did not know. We could have done it in person. Are you in Fidei right now? Did you say that?

You're on Wall Street right now? Yep. And it's so funny. Like when I found out that I was coming down here, I was like, is she in Brooklyn? Not Brooklyn. Is she in New York? And I'm like, that's me being self-centered. I think everyone's in New York.

And then I'm like, let me not even ask because that can just be odd. And then I'm like, oh no, she's on West Coast. Okay. Normally, yes. Forget it.

Normally, yes. No, I am living out my childhood dream of living in New York and six weeks. So, yeah. And I'm doing the thing where like, I thought, okay, I can never live in New York because I can't live in Manhattan. I just can like i thought okay i can never live in new york

because i can't live in manhattan i just can't do i can't live in the city but this is the first time i've actually spent really any significant time in brooklyn and i'm like i could live here what is my identity i know i'm like i love seattle though and so i'm like the ideal situation is that i am i at some point could could somehow split my time between here and Seattle but New York and Seattle that's that's my long-term goal too honestly yeah so expensive or you're living you know it's either you're paying well regardless I was gonna say you're paying either a shit ton of money or you live with six people but i think it's still expensive even if you live with six people so it is yep there's no happy medium to that have you seen the uh the wall street bull yet have you seen that monstrosity i um that's the wild thing so i never came down to

wall street unless i was working there and when i used to work in Wall Street for a very short amount of time, I used to work in that area with the bowl. So I was like, Oh, that's so cute. But I'm just like, no. And then when I booked the hotel that said Wall Street, apparently there's a whole other side of Wall Street that I never knew about. Oh, I didn't care about I still don't care about it's boring down here. Yeah, I'm not on that side of Wall Street. It's so interesting. I actually, I have a part about this in my book, but the interesting thing about the, the bull. Yeah. If you, if you've gone up to the bull, you'll see it is like tourists will come and you're supposed to rub the balls testicles for financial prosperity and literally, and the, um, cause the, the bowl is huge. So therefore is private

parts are also huge. It's balls are massive. And so you literally have all these tourists just like rubbing and grabbing the bull's testicles to the point where the, the testicles are now a different color. Like the scrotum is a different color because all of the oil on people's hands. And I'm like, no wonder people don't you know feel comfortable investing no wonder women and other marginalized groups don't feel comfortable investing when it's like the most masculine masculine representation oh my gosh I because I worked down there I would see that people were always like taking pictures but you know I'm a New Yorker. So I'm just like these fucking tourists. Like I just, so I didn't know what the story behind it was. My daughter is obsessed with like the fearless girl. She has like a picture

with the fearless girl. I don't know the story behind it. I'm sure, you know, but it's not, at least it's not there staring down the bowl anymore. I think it's somewhere else. I think they relocated it, but there's been, it's's it's one of those things and i actually would love to talk to you about this it's one of those things i think there's so much positives but there's also been some like pushback on it where like why is it a girl like you know as opposed to a woman and the fact that unfortunately i think it got like damaged there were people who came and vandalized it and like but you know i'm sure came and vandalized it. And like, but you know, I'm sure somebody's vandalized the bull at some point, but you know, there wasn't the

same pushback. So it's, it's really interesting. Cause it's like, it's means and stands for so much, but it's also slightly complicated. Right. Right. That is, that is so it's, it's very odd. And I feel like it's these little small things that you're always talking about, right? All these like, small societal norms that just implant seeds into our brain about how we think about ourselves, how we think about certain things, and for it to be specifically a little girl facing after this huge bull that signifies financial success, it's just an odd, an odd thing. Right. I mean, part of me is like, I love that, right? Of this, you know, this little, I don't know, seven, eight year old girl is powerful and like that's beautiful. And in a lot of ways it's like, yeah, I don't know.

It's complicated. And it's also, it's not there anymore. It's somewhere else. Like it's not, it's not there. I don't remember why they took it down. I could, I should go research and see why, but it's also just, it's not there anymore. So. That's so, so interesting. I'm trying to remember when my mom took my daughter to see the fearless girl. I'm like, did they come all the way down here or was it somewhere else already? That's so interesting. Yeah. Cause it used to stare like right down the bowl. I mean, I was down there last week and it's not there and it hasn't been for a while, so I'm sure it's somewhere else. I just

don't know where they put it. It's really interesting. I'm so excited you're here. I'm just going to dive right into it. For people who don't know, what does an anti-racism coach do? And like, what is your typical day in the life? Yes. So you're catching me on a very fun time. I've, today's what, Friday? And I've already done four like team trainings this week, as well as like working one-on-one with clients. And what that actually looks like is particularly in the way that I do the work, right? It's anti-racism consulting in terms of going into people's businesses and really helping them see like, where can we make this more inclusive? Where can we make this more

equitable? And at the same time, sometimes teaching people about some of these societal norms, like patriarchal stuff, white supremacy culture, like, right, how are we repeating these things in our businesses? And how can we do the exact opposite? And that can sometimes be hard for people. And it can also bring up a lot of stuff for people. So on top of that, what I also do is coach them through that. So I'm also what I call like a leadership coach, because I feel like leadership very much sets the tone for everything else in the business. And when we go into a business, or even when we get like a managerial job, we just want the job. We just want to do the work that we want to do. That does not necessarily mean

we know exactly what we need to do in order to be an inclusive leader. So a lot of times that looks like working one-on-one with the CEO. Sometimes that looks like training the team as to how anti-racism fits into the work that they're doing. They may not be able to see that. I think a lot of us don't really see that. And doing a mesh of that so that we're all on the same page and the work that we're doing is based off of the values of the business. Yeah. I think one of the interesting things I found when I was working a corporate job and then now running my own company is that a lot of people get promoted to managerial roles

because they're good at their job, not because necessarily they're good managers. And I think that's something that I just wish more people realized is you should get promoted, yes, because you are doing good work, right? But if you're moving into a managerial role, your primary focus at that point is not doing the typical day-to-day work. Your focus is managing other people and becoming a leader who is hopefully inclusive and all of these things. I saw people who got promoted, who were really good at their day-to-day work, but weren't really great at managing people and weren't really great at that oversight. Versus the couple of times I did see people be really good managers,

that was the primary focus of their work rather than the tasks at hand. So what do you find? Do you find a lot of organizations are doing that kind of promoting people based on their work rather than, you know, how well they can execute as a leader? Like what sort of challenges does that cause or what sort of challenges do you have to overcome then? Yeah, I see that with like, quote unquote, regular corporate like businesses where there's a huge staff. And then also just thinking about like, even just myself as a CEO, and just a lot of other like entrepreneurs, we kind of do the same thing. We're like, hey, I have this mission that I want to do.

Okay, we're gonna do that. Damn it, I need to hire people. Okay, well, I need to hire people because I can't do everything. And now we're in this leadership role. And all we wanted to do in the world was the work we wanted to do, but it necessitated hiring people. Right. And so it's, even as a CEO, right. And that's, that's part of the challenge that I'm finding is, is like, how do I move less into the, you know, doing the day-to-day work and more doing the high level either strategy or, you know, making sure that my team have the tools they need to not only perform well and to be well taken care of, but also feel like they're inclusive, like they have, you know, the resources to create content around that. No, it's very interesting. Yeah. And like to answer your question about like, what are some of the issues that come from that is that we just almost like regurgitate whatever it is that we're taught. Right. And so if what we're taught or what we

see as like the best way to lead a team or the best way to get people to get motivated about their work is just what we've come up with in our heads or what we've seen other people do like it it just continues the cycle of all these things that we actually don't want to see in the world but we aren't able to make that connection it's like parenting right it's you end up defaulting to what you saw from your parents, for both good and bad. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly, that's the example I was going to use, but I'm like, I don't know if anyone, if everyone can relate to that. I mean, I don't have a kid, but I feel like my business is a kid in a lot of ways. I'm like, I have 3 million children.

How do I take care of all of them? Yes. What was your background before you started coaching? Before I started coaching, I was in the restaurant industry for seven, eight years. And I was that was just like my little part time job so that I could go to school and do what I actually wanted to do. And what I actually was like preparing my my life to be was to be a doctor at first. And then after having my daughter and just being realistic about what what is that that thing that doctors do residency. So residency, I was like, how am I going to be the mom that I want to be and also be like slaving my life away in residency for the amount of time that I was going to have to be in residency for? It's a massive commitment. Massive.

It's crazy. It is so wild. And I was just like, you know what? At the time, I was like, I wanted to be a psychiatrist. And I was like, let me just step one rung down and I'm just going to be a therapist. And that was my goal. But I was in restaurants for so long. And then I tried to like do some office jobs. And that's when I was like working in Wall Street. And I was like, I hate my everyday life, actually. Like, this is terrible. And then I shifted into coaching because

I'm like that's one rung down from therapy now that's like baby therapy and I still get to do the work that I love so that's like the the path that led me here yeah that's yeah residency I didn't realize that psychiatrists had to do residency but I guess that makes sense and residency typically you're not you don't know where you're going right you're assigned which is a lot of instability like things you can't control unpredictability yeah right right and the the schedules of just like all right so now you have to do some overnights now you have to do this now you have to do that i'm like if i at the time i'm gonna have like a four-year-old I want to be there as much as I possibly can those those specific years don't

come back right so I'm just like I'm not gonna spend it in residency and then being too tired when I come back home it's that whole industry is just kind of wild the way that it's we're expected to to perform right well and it also sounds like it's built for one person which is probably a you know straight white man but specifically a single person right somebody who exactly doesn't have a lot of commitments who doesn't have to raise another person right who doesn't't have many responsibilities outside of, you know, get your degree, do your work. Yeah. Yeah. Super tricky. You identify as Cuban. I want to clarify off and we'll cut this. Do you identify as black or African-American? That's a beautiful, that's a very... We can also keep it. Do you identify as black,

African-American? Because on our notes, it's's African American, but I have heard a lot of, of pushback against that because not all black people of course are African American. Yes. So being a child of the nineties, I feel like the way that I had always introduced myself growing up was I'm black and Cuban, myself growing up was I'm black and Cuban, right? And to me, black meant African American. And it wasn't until I got to adulthood that I realized black is not just African American, black is all of these other different things. And I used to get so frustrated when I was younger, where I'd be like, Oh, yeah, I'm black and Cuban. They're like, Oh, that's the same thing. I'm like, it's not the same thing. What are you talking about? It's two different languages. What do you mean?

So, and it's because my definition of black was African-American. So now I'm like, all right, well, people can see that I'm black, but I need them to know these two cultures that I hold very dear to me. So now I've had to like train myself to say African American and Cuban. But for someone who is just one thing, it really makes sense to, to just say black, compared to for me, I'm like, I need you to know specifically exactly where I'm from. Yeah. So for you, it's African American and Cuban, not black and Cuban. I mean, kind of the same quote unquote, but the way that I would introduce myself for, for clarity purposes, I would say African American and Cuban. Because it's more specific. Is that, is that the idea?

Exactly. Yeah. I think, and I think the reason why that comes up a lot for me is because being, I don't even know if I'd call myself like multiracial, but like multicultural. I've always had questions of just like, oh, which one do you feel like more, though? You have to choose. You're like and I'm like, I'm both like both. There's no I can be dimensional. It's like it's not like do you like apples more than multi-dimensional. It's like, it's not like, do you like apples more than oranges? Both. It's both. So I think that's why I particularly am like so specific.

How do you feel like both of those identities inform your work? I feel like it has truly allowed me to see the world in just a multitude of ways. Just being Cuban and even more so being the child of an immigrant, understanding how they had to exist. like, oh, the sacrifices that they've made, but literally the privileges that they did not have as a result of having to leave a country that they never really cared to leave, right? And really also seeing what racism and prejudice looks like from the Latine point of view, right? I've never seen it in terms of the way that my like having to see like my grandparents experience it but I remember like visiting my grandparents in the hospital this is like way before they passed like they'd be there for like being sick for something

and since they spoke English and since my mom is fluent, she came here when she was four, they never had any trouble with like nurses or doctors or anything. Um, but then they would have a roommate and this isn't a primarily Hispanic neighborhood and they'd have a roommate who only spoke Spanish and the nurses would be treating them differently. It'd be the same nurse treating that patient differently. And at the time, I still wanted to be a doctor. So I was just like, when I become a doctor, I'm going to be the most fluent doctor because these patients need an advocate. Do you feel like that's what started it for you? It is.

It definitely, like my first major in college was Spanish translation and interpretation. I was very much about this life without real, without having the words for it. And then being also African-American and being dark skinned, also realizing what that type of racism and prejudice looks like, right? Like I never really had conversations at home about racism, but as I, again, became an adult and like spoke more to my cousins and just noticed the way that people were interacting towards me, I was able to like

start putting two and two together. Like, I remember even working down in Wall Street, I'd be like walking to do stuff. I don't know, just walking in the street. And I remember having the thought of just like, I feel like I'm invisible to white people. And I'm like, I don't know just walking in the street and I remember having the thought of just like I feel like I'm invisible to white people and I'm like I don't know how that even makes sense because I'm darker than them so they should be able to see me maybe it's my height I don't understand like it was just it was just like and this was the effect of like microaggressions without me even having the word for that. So as I started learning more, I was like putting all these pieces together and I'm just like, oh, okay. So it really like both of those experiences like deeply informed my work.

So you talked about how it seemed like, I don't know, individual society wanted to put you in a box that you were either Cuban or you're African American. Do you feel like there was that same pushback from either Cubans or African Americans to kind of pick? That is so that's a that's a really, really good question. And I'm gonna say no, mostly because being in specifically New York, I didn't like, I never really met any other Cubans except for people in my family, to the fact where to this day, when I meet a Cuban, I'm like, Oh, my God, like, it's, it's like, it's very exciting for me. And on my, like, whenever I'm around African Americans, it was more like, Oh, you're an Oreo. Oh, you talk white, you act white. So it's just like, I never really heard that specific thing from them. It would really be just like,

other random people that that didn't know me well. Yeah. Yeah, I've talked to plenty of friends who are people of color, and they talk about how you're never white enough and you're never black enough or Asian enough like if you have immigrated right or if you are some combination of you know still a person of color but have lived in America for a while or you know have had maybe their grandparents you know immigrated and so yeah I found that that's a really interesting dichotomy that of course I don't have to deal with personally, but I think is really fascinating of like you've never fully assimilated. But you've also you can't like go, quote unquote, like go back to the culture that you were born into or that, you know, your parents or grandparents, you know, partake in. And I think that's really interesting.

Yeah, because it's almost like it's just never enough. Right. And it's just this weird thing. And I think I that's what I had to come to terms with. I'm just like, even with me telling myself, even when I started doing this work, I'm just like, who am I to do this? I'm not black enough to do this work. And then it's just like, first of all, you experience the world every day as a Black woman. Let's get that correct. But then also, it's about realizing that no culture is a monolith. So for me to say I'm not Black enough, then that means I am looking at Black culture or Black people as everyone has the exact same experience, and I have not had that exact same experience.

Sure. Yeah. It's constant comparison, right? It's like a constant, like me juxtaposed with somebody else, right. Or with, uh, you know, a culture that I may or may not feel, you know, I identify as, which I think is really interesting. Very, very interesting. Yeah. You were kind enough to talk to our team, what was that, a couple months ago, and you spoke about how our systemic problems, just as a society, can also be rooted, of course, in a company. If you were starting from the ground up, like starting a company or, you know, establishing what an organization would

look like, what systems would you set in place in order to make that organization welcoming towards marginalized communities? And is it different than the sort of strategy you'd take with an already established company? Yeah, I think I'll answer the second question first and then go back to the first one. I think the difference for me and the way that I work with companies is when they are like just starting, sometimes there is a sense of urgency in terms of, but we've already set this in place. like our team and acting on this every single day. Now we need to like deconstruct the whole thing. And now also really have our team buy into what we're doing now. And then sometimes that can really show something. It's like, Oh, maybe this person that we hired a year ago is not actually right for our team in terms of the way that they are enacting our mission. Maybe our mission is not as important to them and they aren't willing to bend and shift in the way that we want them to.

But rewinding back to the first question, I feel like the main thing is, and I talk about teams a lot because I feel like they are representative of us, right? We can have our own values and what's important to us. But first of all, we need to figure out like, what is it that this person is doing and how do our values show out there? And on top of that, we need to break down some of these internal connections in our own self, right? So when we're thinking about like, what does it mean for someone to be a good team member? What does professionalism look like for us? What are all of these things that are quote unquote normal, but actually have patriarchal roots? And we need to break all of

that stuff down before we even like put pen to paper and make another decision. Right. I think about the word culture fit. And I saw it at my last job, again, well-intentioned. It was like, we're trying to find somebody who shares our values and, you know, it's fun to get along with. I think the unintended consequence though, potentially is when you say culture fit and your whole culture is, you know, white or straight or all men or cisgendered, right? Then immediately what happens is that you have the unconscious bias of, oh, we're hiring other people who look like us. Yes. And even like even deeper than that, because sometimes they can they can move past that and realize, oh, we want to diversify that. But you're still trying to hire people who act like you. diversify that, but you're still trying to hire people who act like you. Right. And that is where we get into this problem where we're, where they're just like, I don't understand what the

problem is. And it's like, well, because you're, I, if you are saying like the way that someone can show us that they are a team player, cause I feel like that's a big word that's, that's used all the damn time. A team player is someone who, you know, deals with someone's nonsense when they are yelling at them, is someone who is going out every single Friday night and quote unquote networking while y'all are at the bar. Like all of these things that literally have nothing to do with the job function, but you are qualifying that as like, oh, this is what's a

team, what someone is as a team player. This is what it means for someone to look and be professional. This is what it looks like for even someone to be qualified for the job. That's something I'm noticing a lot too, right? Like jobs are less willing to take transferable skills. Instead, they want the complete solid three to five years of experience. You're getting paid 65,000. Right. Well, and also back to the, you know, your, your story about residency, it's like, okay, if we're looking for a team player, maybe it's like flexible. It can work flexible hours, right. Or like a lot of companies say they don't do this, but they do. They'll, they're looking at

like who has their butt in the chair for longest, right? Or who's online for the longest time. And if you are taking care of children, if you're taking care of heirloom family members, if something else is going on in your life, which our lives are complex, you're very rarely able to, you know, put in long hours and you shouldn't. But, you know, there's that expectation, right? As if you are a team player, you are able to go above and beyond. And it's like, sometimes, no, I literally physically can't. Right. And that, that messes with people's mindset so hard. Like even you saying that I'm

thinking back to like my restaurant days, I was a host and they were like, all right. So to be head host, one of the things that's very important is that we need to see that you're like picking up shifts when other people can't work. And so the way that I define that in my head is if I am not physically doing something else, then I will pick up a shift. And if I don't have something on my calendar, yes, I have to. Yeah. As opposed to no, maybe I just need a break. I'm learning that myself. It's just like I literally have had to Cherise, who's our admin assistant, knows this. I've literally had to go in and be like, Cherise, I need you to block this time on my calendar or else I will not do it. I just won't take time. Yes! It's terrible. I wouldn't recommend it. It's the classic, like trying to navigate how to take off time and rest in a capitalist society where I'm like, okay, my happy medium is we'll just pencil, we'll actually put a calendar invite that says like, I'm off for this two hours. And this honestly, like it comes

back to what you mentioned before about like the child raising of just you're doing the same thing that was done to you. So if this is our norm, when we were trying to get to leadership, now that we're a leader, we're like, well, this is how it is, I guess. That's all you've known. Right, right, right. And unless you're committed to learning something different, that's what you're going to keep doing. Unless you realize like, oh, it's broke, I need to fix it. Or you know, there's things I could do better. You're just going to keep, it's broke, I need to fix it. Or, you know, there's things I could do better. You're just going to keep doing it. Exactly. And what makes it so difficult is they're like, okay, well, I've already defined someone who's hardworking as someone who comes

in on their days off and who stays later. How do I now shift my own mental definition of hardworking so that when I do do something else, I'm not panicking that no one's being hardworking. Right. Well, and I think it's even back further in terms of like, you know, the definition or implementing and inclusivity is if it's not your lived experience and you haven't actively worked to learn somebody else's live experience, it like doesn't exist for you. And like when I was growing up, right, as a white person, like there were certain things I was never exposed to that I didn't even know were a thing. Right. And then you start having more conversations. You start reading more. Like I was literally rereading like a New York Times article that I had read a couple of years ago. It like came up on Facebook for me. I was like, you posted

this whatever four years ago. And it was all about how a lot of companies who go cashless, it's a form of discrimination, right? Because if you're a company or a store or a business that only accept credit cards, you are excluding a huge subset of the population who don't have the credit score to qualify or, you know, can only, can only use cash. Right. And there's a variety of different reasons for that, but typically those people are black and Brown. And so, you know, in, I grew up in a family, you know, who has been very frugal and worked really hard, but also is, you know, middle-class and white. And my parents only use credit cards. Like they very rarely carry cash. And that's something that I've, I've learned as a smart thing to do because it builds your credit, you know, and you're able to get points and all of those things. And so that had not even occurred to me because I didn't grow up with it. And then you read more and you're like, oh, fuck, right? That's like outside of my experience. So when you're, I think, you know, just trying to be more inclusive in general, you know, one of the, one of the things that happens is you have to realize like what,

what has not even existed in your world yet. You know, I've realized that too, but if you work at an organization that is unwilling to do that, because it's the way, you know, it's either the way we've always done it, or you don't literally see that there's a, there's, you know, a problem or something different that needs to happen. You just don't know. Right. And that's, I feel like the biggest thing is that you don't know what you don't know. And something that I say not very often, but I truly, truly believe that anti-racism work fixes so many other business problems that people didn't even realize were even interconnected and it's like literally just hiring this one person can allow you to see like why you know turnover is so high why all of these different other problems that you have,

that you being calling yourself a good person, you're like, I don't know what's wrong. I'm trying to do all the things. And it's because of this huge, huge blind spot. Right. And I think sometimes it's an intentional blind spot versus sometimes it's just, you haven't been exposed to it. Right. And you know the way you know the at least the way I've tried to operate and you know it's a continued practice is like yes I don't know what I don't know so let me go learn right let me go try to figure out what I don't know and try to understand you know how that fits in with my own lived experience experience. You credit the corporate response to the Black Lives Matter resurgence in the summer of 2020 as why you decided to be an anti-racist coach. What about that response felt completely

off the mark? And how can companies recognize when they're being performative versus actually making some sort of impact or change? Yes, that was a wild time to be active on the internet. Because what's wild is that right before the corporate response, there was just this flailing, this constant flailing that was happening. I saw it and I, unfortunately, there was a couple of missteps that we made too. You're just, you're just, it's like untreaded waters and you're like, okay, okay. Yeah. Corporate flailing. That's very funny. it's a very good way to put that i'm sitting here at home and i'm just like are y'all okay

hey that's what was going on for me you posted a black square and we solved racism way to go guys we did it we did it it's all racism is over it's done and it was it's what was wild about it for me too is just like as i've mentioned you know i'm someone who is hyper focused on a problem like i'm sitting here going to visit my grandmother in the hospital, but I'm very much noticing how the nurse is treating the next person. So I was like, everyone is like this, right? Like, and because of that one moment in the hospital, I was like,

my major is going to be Spanish translation and interpretation. Like I'm thinking everyone is like this okay so when all of this beautifully empathetic by the way like beautifully empathetic yeah thank you and I'm like wait no one else is like this like that that was my main thought and so i'm just like oh wow these people like they need help i thought what i've been doing or just been thinking about this isn't the norm so let me just help these people out because it was it was a lot yeah yeah so like for you black square was the obvious one like what other things in summer of 2020 where you're like oh dear god like the biggest thing that just came up for me was so many white people

talking about their trauma as it relates to racism but not even like like, I like, in the sense of, I used to be racist. And let me tell you this whole story. My grandfather used to be racist. Let me tell you this whole story. And I'm like, girl, I know, like this, this is not necessary. And this is from like, the stories I'm telling you are not from like larger corporate companies. This is more from like entrepreneurs and it's the Instagram influencers. Yeah. Yes. And it was just quite, quite wild. I'm like, girl, you are, you're a health and wellness coach. Why are we getting into your grandpa and how racist he was? I don't need to know that. And from like the corporate response, I had known prior to all of this, like a little bit of how problematic, like for example, Amazon was right. And so like, I've had like a friend and a family member who worked for an Amazon warehouse

here in New York. And so I was just like, what are these working conditions? What do they have y'all doing? Oh my gosh. And so when Amazon's like financial corporate response came out, I'm just like, how are you going to sit here and donate all this money as if you care? But then the black and brown employees, because the pay of this was minimum wage and they're doing all of this work and nothing's changing for them.

And that also clicked for me, too, of just like, oh, wow, what we're seeing on the outside is literally nothing like that's like it is on the inside. Even these big companies need this type of support. Well, and they probably have a actually a bigger impact if they overhaul the stuff that was going on internally, even if you never saw it, but then it becomes a PR move, right? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Like all that money that y'all are donating here, if we just like turned it around and created better working conditions and paid people better and gave people all the things that they need, like that money would be more impactful, but it wouldn't have that big public response. Yeah. We may have talked about this before, but something that I am constantly thinking about, how do we applaud progress while being like, this should have happened so long ago? Like, I think about very specifically because it has affected me is like the Victoria's Secret response a couple years ago where they're like, we don't want fat people on our runway and we don't want trans women on our runway right and then they completely did a 180 and overhauled everything right now you see curvy women and now you see i think i think they have yeah trans women

or disabled women and i'm all for it like i'm happy to see it, but I'm also like, it feels like you've just done this because you know, now it's expected and popular, but at the same time, like, isn't that how we've always gotten change is by demanding change. So that I've been struggling with this and I would love your perspective, both as a coach and you personally of like, how do we applaud progress? Also being like, this is potentially some bullshit. And also this should have happened a long time ago. Yeah, I think I'll answer from the perspective of just a consumer. And then I'll answer from the perspective of a coach. As a human, I've like, personally, quote, unquote, canceled Victoria's Secret a long time ago, like way before all that, because I'm just like it's so it for me it was even just frustrating

like how is it that y'all are a bra store and i can't get my size bra like what is no that's literally me i wear a 34g i can't walk into victoria's secret and get jack shit right and maybe now i can potentially but i have to order it still online yeah and also the runway for so many years like the runway was not for women the runway was to sell sex to men exactly exactly like it was it was male gaze bullshit and i'm of course i'm picking on victoria's secret but there's you know of course with black and brown people there's so many examples of this of like again like hi we're now hiring black and brown people we have you know a dei department like right you, there's all these things great where you're like, yay, but also where was this forever ago? Right. And I think the stance that I've took on it is

like clapping in the background. Like I'm happy for y'all. I'm not, I'm going to be happy for, for y'all from a distance. That's me as a consumer. And I feel like every consumer y'all can like figure out for each company. Cause a lot of companies have done things. Right. And I feel like you can watch the Abercrombie and Fitch documentary. Yeah. Like, you know, if you haven't seen it, we'll link it. It's on Netflix. It's a very good use of your time, but yeah, I didn't because I was a little too young. I missed like the Abercrombie obsession. But apparently, yeah, for many, many, many years, they pretty much publicly discriminated against anyone who wasn't white and beautiful. And now if you go to the Abercrombie website, like there's almost, I would not say, I was about to say too much diversity. I don't mean it that way. I just mean it was like, like you go on the website and there's so much where they're almost like, oh, we're overcompensating.

But at the same time, I run a business and I know that like you have to, you know, you do this both because it's the right thing to do. And you also do it because you hope people see themselves in the business that you're running. So this is a multi – I mean, we're not going to solve this problem, but this is the thing I'm constantly thinking about is it's like, again, how do you like – I guess it's really how do you, of course, be inclusive while not being performative but also knowing you need to run a business. Yes. And then, again, how do you make progress knowing that like this should have happened a long time ago? Yes. And you've actually hit the nail on the head from like, you know, coach side Alyssa now it's like, is this just a new coat of paint? Like, are y'all just being performative or have changes actually happened? Like these models that you're hiring, was it just for this one thing or are they, did you compensate them fairly? Exactly. Exactly. Like there's so many different things

that have to go along with these public changes. And so really understanding the underneath of all of that, that's where you can see, okay, this person or this business, this company actually changed compared to, oh, cool. They took some new pictures now. Great. But I'm also super happy for the models. Like that makes me so ecstatic to see, like, I remember being in Times Square back when I lived in New York, when American Eagle like started like showing stretch marks like that, like seeing that on like a huge billboard on Times Square that I was elated. And I don't know if like if there's anything problematic with them. I don't know. But understanding that even sometimes a coat of paint has an impact. But do we give this person a pass? Do we like start interacting with them again? It, it really depends on what's going on inside. Right. It's like, who deserves the cookie?

Like you, you don't get a cookie for showing stretch marks, but maybe, yeah, you get, you get half the cookie. We'll give you an oatmeal raisin cookie. It's not as good, but we'll give you a cookie. Yeah. Yeah. No. And I think, yeah, it's just really interesting because yeah, it's something that I've thought about a lot, both as somebody who's currently running a business, but also just feeling like, okay, a lot of things seem to be changing, but are they actually, and also what took everybody so long. That's another thing too. And I feel like that's why specifically with the work that I do, I, I, there's no way I can just come into a business and say, Hey, change X, Y, and Z. That's cool. They can, they can change it. But if their mindset has not changed with that, then we're actually doing more harm than good, right? Like an example

that I can think of is like, hey, you know what? Your employees never see customers. So why do they have to come in here in a suit? And then the CEO's like, yeah, that's a good idea, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, casual dress every day, no dress code. And they're like, yeah, good idea. But if Tom comes in with shorts and he doesn't say anything and Jessica comes in with shorts and he's like, oh, she thinks she wants to go to the beach. She's going to be lazy all day. That's a mindset thing that needs to change with that action. So with a lot of these larger companies, did that mindset change as well? And is that showing in the other things that they may be doing? Yeah. Can you talk about how a lot of companies are trying to figure out what they deem looking professional in the workplace and how that is often very prejudiced against black people, specifically black women? Yes, it's, it's so ridiculous. And

the interesting part to me is that it is really widespread. It is completely widespread. Like, I remember even working at this one restaurant. And I remember hearing someone say, I think it was like a manager say, like, well, I mean, if a woman comes to an interview without wearing makeup, then she clearly doesn't care about the job. And I'm like, what in the hell does, what does that have to do with anything? I don't understand. And that's just, that's literally just the restaurant industry, right? In other places, it is your hair. It is like literally everything. If people could see me right now, everything that I'm doing right now, the exact opposite, right? Like I have really big hoop earrings. I have on like just fun costume jewelry. I have on natural hair,

long pink nails, all of these things that are things that if I were to walk into a corporate space, I would literally not get the job even if I am overqualified. Just because all of these things are deemed as unprofessional and what it really is saying, specifically with the things that I've mentioned, right, the hair, the hoops, the nails, really is saying, specifically with the things that I've mentioned, right, the hair, the hoops, the nails, it's because it actually roots into, it roots into racism and roots into, oh, all of those things mean that this person is ghetto, which means that this person will not be able to perform, which means that they're going to be lazy, they won't know how to talk to people, all of these different things, just because I'm expressing myself and letting my hair

grow out of its scalp in the way that it grows out of its scalp. The audacity, Alyssa, Jesus, the audacity. Well, I think, I think that's one of the beautiful things and we'll link it again about the crown act, right? As the crown act is working to make it illegal specifically to discriminate against typically black and brown hair but black specifically right of you know natural hair not having your hair whitewashed literally yeah and the thing too is like even when let's say like the person is allowed to work there they're still allowed to get all the things uh this isn't something i've personally experienced because i'm a very new natural like literally just a year natural but like the oh can i touch your hair oh let me let me see it let me feel it let me

all of that that is just a mental weight but why It's because like this is something that they've, quote unquote, never seen before. And when we were continuing to just perpetuate all of these things, when we have all these different rules in place and we also don't know how to check microaggressions. what are some biases prejudices that are common both in the workplace and out that people should examine and take a look at like you just named a couple right like what we deem professional how can I touch your hair like what what are some other things that you've either personally seen or even seen in your work as a coach yeah I feel like there are so many that have again just been become normalized because of just the society that we've lived in like for someone who quote-unquote does not look either white American or African American it's like oh where are you from Chicago oh where are you really from? Like, what are you saying? What are you asking, right? There are so many things that can come from a place of either trying to connect with somebody, right? So like picking up their lingo or what you assume to be their lingo, right? Like that's

something that I have experienced and it's just, it's so odd. It is very, very odd, like trying to talk to me in AAV, African American Vernacular English, just assuming that that's how I talk or it's so many different things. And a lot of it comes from a nice place. And, but it's very uncomfortable. And it leads with a ton of assumptions. And I think that's the big thing with microaggressions. They all come with a certain assumption with how you should treat people. My co-parent used to work in fine dining and we were like talking about microaggressions not too long ago. not too long ago. And he was saying when that he would see all the time is whenever a black family or a couple or a person would come into the restaurant, then all the other servers would

be like, oh, so what are you celebrating? Under the assumption that it's a Tuesday and I'm hungry, right? That's, that's, that's what I'm here for. I, when he said that, I'm just like just like I don't I don't always go to fancy restaurants because the food portions are too small and it gets me annoyed but when I have gone it was to celebrate a thing right so I'm just like oh shit people get this the same question on a random Tuesday and they do that and if they they're wealthy, they do that often. So you can imagine. Right. Cause the assumption is this is, this is something that is a splurge for you because you don't have money. Yeah. Boy. Also I'm with you on the small portions. I'm like, if I'm paying $50 for a plate, please give me enough food where I don't have to go get a burger.

I'm begging. Like that's, that's all I literally ask. I want to be full. And if you're using tweezers to put food on a plate, that's like fine. But like, that's probably a bad sign. I'm like, give me more food than that, please. I don't, I don't love Olive garden anymore but i want that love like i'm soup salad breadsticks let's fucking go i'm very much used to like being in the bronx and going to like the local spanish spot and they're like oh we have a lunch special for seven dollars and we're like cool it is the biggest platter of food. It's also a dinner. Like you've got, you've got dinner, lunch and dinner in there and you spent $7 and you're full. I'm not asking for that specifically, but I want to be that level of full.

Oh, There have been several studies claiming that historical diversity training just doesn't work. And you, in your own work, reject the traditional way of DEI training. How are you building a new model that's successful, sustainable? And what prompted your thinking of like, okay, it's not working. Let's try something else. Yeah, I think it was because I did coach training before I pivoted to this work. So I was really bringing in my tools as a coach of just like, realizing, especially because of the flailing of June, 2020, that's when I realized it goes deeper than tell me what to do. It's more of just like, I don't even know what's happening. Am I a bad person? Now I need to like shift the way that I'm thinking. And I even realized that with some of

the people who like go against Black Lives Matter, right? It really comes from a foundational place of what you are saying is the exact opposite of what I've been grown to see and understand and all of these different things. And these are also people who like own businesses and who have a large impact. who like own businesses and who have a large impact. And the way that I do my work is to really see, and I'm not saying traditional DEI work doesn't do this, but really focusing on the human behind the decision-making because we can create plans. We can do all of this stuff. And then we can then say, oh, it's because it's not important to them you know how much stuff i drop the ball on even if it's important to me like that's not the problem the the actual problem yeah thanks for saying that yeah thank you

because it when we do that we're then villainizing someone else and again there are people who deserve to be villainized i'm not talking about them. But when we do DEI work in that way, then it becomes unsustainable for the person who has to enact on all of these things. If we, going back to the example of the dress code, if the CEO beforehand was like, well, so-and-so comes in a suit every day. That's how I know they are dressing for the job that they want. They are serious, blah, blah, blah. And if now everyone is coming with sundresses and shorts and like white tees, then how does he now learn how to figure out who is serious for the job? And then it'll cause a lot of mental stress. And he may just end up taking it away. Because then he's like, Oh, you see, everyone is too lax.

So we can't do this. So it really, we have to, like, really work on the person who is making the decisions so that they can now see everything in a different view. Yeah. You and I have talked about this before. I think there's no, of course, like quote unquote right way to do this, but I feel like there's kind of two camps of like the, and again, no right way, but there are a certain, uh, there are certain groups of people who are DEI experts or who are focused on anti-racism who are like, white people are fucking it up. And like, I'm really mad and I'm going to call you out. And then there's the other camp that's like, that will turn white people off and that will make them like curl up in a ball.

So let's not do that. And I see merit to both of those things. Cause as you know, again, I can't, I can't speak to the experience of a black woman, but I can, you know, I can speak to my experience as a woman. And there's so many times where I'm like men, I hate that they're all trash and I hate it. And I want to burn it all to the ground. And like, I'm going to call you out on your shit. And then there's other times where I'm like, hi, let's have a conversation about how masculinity is hurting you. Toxic masculinity is hurting you just as much as it's hurting me. Like, let's talk about that.

So what for you, like what, why that distinction? Or can you have both? Can you have the Venn diagram of like, I'm super fucking angry and we're going to like burn some shit to the ground. And I don't care if you're comfortable white people because you've been comfortable forever. Can you pair that with, hi, if I do that, I know I'm, I know I'm potentially losing you because you're fragile. Like, is there, is there a medium between those? Should there be a medium? Can we just, we just burn it all the ground? I don ground? I don't know. Yeah, I feel like there is a beautiful medium that I have not found yet

only because I am very conflict adverse. I literally, it's hard for me to work with someone who doesn't have self-awareness because I need to borrow some of what those other people have to be able to say, listen, you are saying this, but you are doing this. Period. The end. There is no discussion, right? I need to learn how to borrow some of that. But for now, I'm just like, if you don't have self-awareness, I can't. We can't do that right now, right?

like, if you don't have self-awareness, I can't, I just, we can't do that right now. Right. But at the same time, because of the way that I do this work, there needs to be a level of safety. There has to be a level of psychological safety for that person to even go inside their brain. One thing that I do with my clients is I'm like, in this container, you are allowed to say whatever you want. Because when it comes out of your mouth, then you can have that awareness. And then we can work through that. But if you have all of these thoughts in the back of your head, and you're just sitting with me in a session, just nodding all day, those thoughts didn't go away. But there needs to be a level of safety for them to be able to even do that. So I feel like that's where that medium comes from. But at the same time, it really comes from my background. It took me a while to even understand what the hell was going on with me.

Like I mentioned before, I was like, am I invisible to white people? Is it because I'm sure it was going on? Like, I didn't even realize all the microaggressions compared to people who've been aware all of their lives or even who are older than me. Right. So their tolerance level, right. Is, is just where it's a fine line. And so sitting in a coaching session with someone telling you all of their prejudice thoughts that they just, they don't have the capacity to do that and they're just they're they're over that point by now yeah right and you can't you can't fault them exactly exactly yeah i'll go out on a limb and be vulnerable and i have a question both as a person and also i think will be helpful for our listeners i am fine digging into, especially with men who are being shitty to me online. I'm like, I'll fuck this up.

I don't fucking care. Like, let's go. However, as a real life embodiment of Leslie Knope from Parks and Recreation, like I want everybody to love me and I want like a lot of people don't realize this because I come off my online personas very like fuck it up. And I feel that way a lot of the time. But I think actually my default state is like, no, I just I want you to love me and I want to love people. And that's, I'm trying, I'm trying, right? And I am just not great at taking feedback. And it's been something that I've all, like, I've constantly

working on learning how to take feedback and learning how to implement it in my life in a way that doesn't shut me down and make me really, really defensive. So both for myself and for anybody listening, if you do get called in, called out, or if somebody says something to you about your behavior, about your words, how can you take that feedback in a way that honors that person's experience and actually helps you change your behavior, change the things you're saying. Yes, that is honestly one of the most important things to be able to do because I feel like when people think of anti-racism work, it's like, okay, because I want to make sure I don't hurt anyone. I want to make sure that I'm safe. And it's like, we are also human and we cannot

know everything. And so there will be a time when we do mess up. It's happened to me before and I'm sure it'll happen. Exactly. Exactly. And I continuously mess up in random other things in life. And what I have to also remember too, is that we need to release the binary of good and bad because i think underneath all of that it's really i want to make sure people know i'm a good person

and that's that's a lot yeah it's a lot especially when you're trying to run a business based on somebody's approval of you yes yes because then the problem becomes let's say we make a mistake right and our main thought is like i want to make sure that they know that i'm we don't say i want them to make sure they know i'm a good person i want to make sure they know my intention but that's the motivation exactly exactly and so most of the time we're spending our existence trying to prove that we're a good person instead of being able to take responsibility that I am still a good person. All those other good things in life now don't get erased. Right. My intentions don't get erased. But I need to acknowledge the fact that regardless of my intentions, I have still harmed this person in this way. I have said something that is not okay. I've done something that's racist, that's prejudice, whatever. And that does not disqualify the fact that I'm a good person.

So instead of spending this time trying to prove to myself or to them that I'm a good person, I'm going to focus more on repairing whatever it is that I've done. Yeah. I think for me in 2020, like the word racism or the word racist took on like a different definition because I think for a lot of white people, right. It was like, I'm not racist. And it's like, we actually all kind of are because just like we're all a little sexist we're all a little racist because we grew up in a society that is racist or is sexist or is ableist right and so you know I of course don't want to be racist however we grew up in a system that constantly was right so the sometimes conscious sometimes most of the time unconscious bias, right, is based on the society that you grew up in. And so I feel like one of the things that's been helpful for me is

understanding like, I am trying, of course, to not choose racism, sometimes subconsciously or unconsciously, that that happens. And, you know, and then it's like, okay, how do I respond to it in a way that hopefully changes you know my thoughts or my behavior and also understanding that it's a consequence of the system that exists right rather than often like my own choice to be racist or not racist right and i feel like that was a eye-opening thing for me was that like nope these things exist and and again you're not like a bad person but you have this unconscious bias that is sometimes very conscious and sometimes not so conscious at all exactly exactly even like going back to the server who's asking oh what occasion

are you here for they're not a terrible person they their intention is to like create a connection, to be warm, to be welcoming. Have a conversation. Right. But where that question comes from, it comes from a racist idea that has been perpetuated in society. Yep. Trying to get better at taking feedback. Constant, constant thing for me. That's hard. It's, it's very hard. And I, I'm, I'm bad at that. Very, but I try to like reframe my brain. Like what is the purpose of the feedback? Like at work, I'm so good at taking feedback because I'm just like, okay, good. This is what's going to get me to the promotion and get me more money. Right. But anywhere else, I need to reframe like, what is the purpose of the feedback? Okay. So that I can have a better relationship with this person. Okay. So it's like all of these different ways that don't fall down on, oh my God, I'm a bad person. because it didn't occur to me until just now when you said that. Feedback in general is hard for me,

but feedback at work when I was working a corporate job was easier because it was slightly less personal. I have put so much of myself, like I do consider this company my child. And so it is so much, and we're doing a little bit of separation between her, you know, what her first 100K is and who I am, right? Because they've been very intermeshed, but it's very hard not to take it personally because now my work is my life is my life's work, you know? So that's a really great distinction of realizing like, oh, part of the reason feedback's really hard in my work is because now that's like, this is the thing I care about the most and feels so personal to me. Exactly. I loved this example of a client of yours where you decided to incorporate watching Black rom-coms as like part of her anti-racist work.

Can you talk about that? And can you elaborate on ways we can try to make this work focus on black joy and black beauty rather than everything sucks and it's all awful. Literally, yes. It's very funny. A year ago, I had wrote an email to my list saying, don't ask me if I've watched certain movies because I have not and I will not because I'm not going to sit here while doing anti-racism work watching black trauma. Like, we're not. It's not maybe 30 years from now if I'm doing something different, I'll pop it in. But, like, don't ask me. I have not and I will not. Okay. And I think that's what everyone that's another like flag for like, summer 2020. It's just

like, what the hell are y'all doing? That's another thing of like, are y'all okay? Because there was just this deep dive into let me immerse myself in trauma let me just buy all of these thick ass history books and i haven't picked up a history book since 12th grade like these are because we're trying to understand right we're trying to understand and we're trying to do 20 30 years of work that we haven't done and haven't been required to do in a month. Literally in a month. And like, let me like join all these book clubs. Let me do all these things. And it's just like, ma'am, you don't have the actual time to do all of that. And here's the thing too. Like when I work with entrepreneurs, I'm typically working with them, like with coaches,

a lot of the times if it's an entrepreneur. And so it's like, you're not going to learn more about your black clients by watching 12 Years a Slave. It's that it does not connect. you need to understand is less about, tell me about history. You can learn about history, especially if that's your jam, please keep doing that. But if you're trying to understand, how do I become a better ally? How do I have an anti-racist business? How do I do all of these things? Reading all of these deep historical books and watching all of this is not going to do anything. So instead you really need to understand what black life is now. And how all of these systemic things are affecting us in regular day to day things. And that's where the list of the black rom coms came in. Because I'm just like, do a thing that you like to do, so that you can always keep up with it. And so it's sustainable. If you don't like to read,

then don't create a book list. You're never going to get to the book list. If you like to watch things, then do that. And what that client was able to do was from watching all of these movies, you're able to pick things out, right? And that's, I feel like what people really need to understand about Black life is that we still have regular everyday life. These are things that also just happen every day. And she was... Well, for me, it almost feels like it didn't count unless it was like the heavy stuff. Right?

Yes. And I feel like you have to be conscious, right? I put count in quotes, by the way. You can't see me. I put count in quotes. I'm sorry to cut you off. I want to clarify. I put count in quotes.

I realize people can't see this. I know. And I was like, oh, that's going to make no sense unless you put count in quotes. Yes. Sorry, go ahead. And one of the movies that either she watched or was on her list, I ended up watching a couple months ago. It's called Love Jones. It's a classic black rom-com.

And it's just a regular rom-com about, I think she's like an artist or a photographer, something like that. And she's just, you know, doing the rom-com things. But there's like a couple of scenes where she's like looking for a job. And every time she goes into a job interview, there's a white man interviewing her. And he's like looking for a job and every time she goes into a job interview there's a white man interviewing her and he's like you know these these uh she was a photographer oh you know these

uh photos they're they're a bit urban i don't know if they're gonna fit in to you know our magazine here blah blah blah blah and then at the end of the movie, she gets hired, I think by like Ebony magazine, something like that. But you're watching a rom-com, but you're seeing how does this affect a human in everyday life? What are the themes that I can take away from this? How I can understand how something like this would affect someone. And then y'all get to research that, right? You can say, why did that interaction happen? What did that person mean when they said it was urban? Then you can go down and research historical stuff, but it has a connection, not just randomness. Yeah. I am a huge fan of The Office. I've seen seasons three, four,

five at The Office 20 times. Like I literally, I took a shower this morning. I take showers and I listened to the office because I've seen it so many times. I didn't even have to see it. And the office is not perfect. Right. And was made mostly by white people. However, there are so many like really interesting, especially early two thousands moments of discussing race, discussing diversity. And so I think about that of like one of my favorite things to consume, right. If I sit down and of like one of my favorite things to consume, right? If I sit down and watch an episode of The Office, especially an episode around one of those topics, I'm probably going to learn something, right? Like Michael does call Stanley urban,

and I'm putting urban in quotes like all the time, right? Or I'm trying to think, oh, when, have you seen The Office? I saw the first like two episodes of season one and it was just, I couldn't watch any more, but I've heard it. It's very cringy. It's so painful. I've heard it gets better. It's a certain kind of humor. It does. And it's also, it's purposely cringy. Yeah. But yeah, there's like, there's an episode where Toby, who's the director of HR is trying to buy his daughter, like the big gift for Christmas. And it's called Princess Unicorn my horn can pierce the sky and he goes to Daryl who's the manager of the work of the warehouse and Daryl's a black man and Daryl has bought the last doll and he's like I'm trying I need to buy your doll off of you

and he ends up buying Daryl's doll for his white daughter and the doll is black and so it's this really uncomfortable moment where Toby gets the doll and Daryl's like what's daughter and the doll is black. And so it's this really uncomfortable moment where Toby gets the doll and Daryl's like, what's wrong with the doll? And he's like, nothing. It's perfect. It's perfect. You know? And so just like these moments like that, I think of that of like, yeah, I, I, of course, you know, there's so much, you know, stuff we got to work through. That's really heavy. And I think important for us as white people to do, but also like, I love that approach of like like how can you make this something sustainable and you know based off of something that you're either already consuming or that you're interested in yeah

because yeah I I don't read historical fiction or even historical non-fiction like I'm not doing that so I'm not picking up the the 600 page anthology about the civil war or about you know like I'm not going to do that. But there's a bunch of other things I can do. Exactly. I tell people about that with money, too. It's like, if you don't like spreadsheets, you're not going to follow a budget that uses spreadsheets. Exactly. So find something else. Right. And like, for me, I'm like, that's me taking the like holistic human approach. I'm not going to tell you to do something that you don't want to do and say, well, they didn't care enough.

It's not sustainable for who they are. So let's create a way that is sustainable and is opening their eyes as long as they are doing it in a way that's actually like paying close attention. Right. doing it in a way that's actually like paying close attention right and i think another thing too even when being able to see things play out like you see this woman go to the interview get deflated so you're like so now what effect does that have on her more than just she didn't get that job what else happens and you get to see, again, from a human perspective, how prejudice and racism actually currently affects people today compared to like the people who are like, well, slavery ended like 12 years ago. So what's the problem?

Like, it's very, very different. Yeah. just watched the episode a new girl where winston winston who's one of the black characters talks about becoming a cop and all of the the you know the levels of of thought and like finagling that he has to do of like having these two identities of you know a black man who's also a cop and yeah like you just you're getting a little bit of that even in just the regular media you're watching exactly exactly i think just the main thing is really, instead of trying to, I feel like a lot of us try to like opt ourselves out of the work in terms of, I already know everything. I know a lot. I've done a lot of learning and reading. And not to say that you haven't, I'm pretty sure that you have, right? understanding how we need to really zoom in on how these societal things are playing in our day-to-day life. It's more than understanding what to say, what not to say. It's really about how are we shifting the way that we're viewing the world and how is that playing into our

businesses, our teams, all of that. And a lot of times outside help is needed so instead of saying oh I already said that really ask yourself what more do I need to do how can I be doing better how is this relating to me yeah and I feel like for me what I teach about like financial feminism is there's no like finish line it's it's a lifestyle that you have to constantly incorporate and you're sometimes going to do really well and sometimes you're going to mess up and you just got to keep going. And, you know, for me personally, like that's, you know, the realization of like, oh, you know, anti-racism work is not something I can check off the to-do list right at the end of the day. It's something that you're doing and struggling at and sometimes doing all right at

for the rest of your life. right like i i kind of compare it to like recycling or like uh climate stuff going to the gym right like i can't learn about okay coke cans go in the recycling i need to understand aluminum goes into the recycling i need to understand what reusing reduce reuse recycle reuse, recycle, what does that actually mean? I need to understand that and enact that every single day. But if I only know the basics, then I can't apply it more. Yeah, totally. It's a very thoughtful way to put it. Where can people find you? You all can find me on Instagram at AR Leadership, as well as on LinkedIn at Alyssa Hall. There's going to be a lot of Alyssa Halls,

but you'll find me. You'll find her. I love it. Thank you for being here. And thank you for the work that you do. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. I am so grateful to Alyssa,

who, fun fact, actually had to record this twice due to a technical issue. We compensated her for her time. We were so sorry. And she was such a trooper. So please follow Alyssa on her social media. And if you are a coach or a small business owner, she has one-on-one coaching and workshops. We've linked all of that information in the show notes. We spend so much time every week. Our team spends so much time on show notes every single episode. So if you've liked any of the conversations and you want to learn more, if you've gone, oh, that was a really good intro to a topic. I want to learn more. I want to deep dive. We provide resources, education in the show notes as a way to continue learning and growing

past just an hour commitment to listening to podcast episodes. So please take advantage of all of the work our team does and go read those show notes. Again, linked in the description. Thank you as always for being here. Thank you for your openness and willingness to have conversations like these and to show up even when we're uncomfortable. It's something I'm trying to learn and get better at is showing up even when it's uncomfortable to be there and again financial feminism is not just about personal finance it's not just about getting your own financial shit together but by using our tools and strategies and money and financial power to start changing the world and making it more equitable so thank you as always for being here we can't wait to see you next week have Have a great day, Financial Feminists.

I'll talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Olivia Koning, Sharice Wade, Alina Helzer, Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Valerie Oresko, Jack Koning, Cherise Wade, Alina Helzer, Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Valerie Oresko,

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