Financial Feminist - 57. How Much Does a Dominatrix Make? with Mistress Justine Cross

Episode Date: November 29, 2022

The business of sex work is often considered taboo in conversation, but considering the sex work industry is primarily made up of women –– we need to talk about it. So, we invited Mistress Justine Cross to join us for an episode on her business as one of LA’s most famous dominatrixes. In this episode, Tori and Justine discuss everything from the logistics of financial domination, running a dungeon, education on the BDSM community, managing irregular income, and the stigma of sex work. Learn more about our guests, get resources, and read the episode transcripts at https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, financial feminists. Excited to have you back. I'm so excited to share this episode with you. It's a little saucy today. Our guest is incredible, badass, and so transparent about our finances. I first discovered her on a collaboration that she did with the Try Guys. We get into that a bit on the episode, but we're about to delve into the world of kink today. And I encourage you to have an open mind. And it's a fun fucking conversation. Before we jump in, a reminder that my book, Financial Feminist, will be out in just a few weeks. Holy fucking shit.

So please, please, if you can, order from a local bookstore. If the book isn't in your price range, if a $22 book isn't a thing for you right now, no worries. Go request it from your library. Either way, Financial Feminist will be in your hands so soon. You've heard me talk about it before. I've worked for five fucking years on this book. And oh my gosh, it feels like the culmination of so much hard work. And I can't wait for you to read it. I can't wait for you all to highlight it and put little stickies on it and then send a picture to me. It just makes me happy. We're also doing a bunch of book events around the

country. So you might be seeing me shortly, maybe get to meet me, get a signed book. Oh, and that's the other thing. If supplies haven't sold out by the time this episode comes out, we have four independent bookstores, one in Colorado, one in I think Illinois, one in Seattle, and then there's another one. But they ship nationwide and they have signed copies. I am literally, as we speak, like signing copies of books. I have 3,000 books at home that I'm signing. So if supplies haven't run out, you can order from those bookstores. Again, they ship anywhere. So even if you don't live in those places and you can get a signed copy of Financial Feminist and support a local bookstore. Okay, let's talk about today's episode. Justine Cross is a professional BDSM consultant

and dominatrix, owner of Dungeon East in Los Angeles. Justine offers dominant life coaching and kink classes. She also hosts BDS Femme, a play party for cis and trans women, and co-hosts Deviant, a play party for all queer people. Dismantling the patriarchy, traveling the world, and oyster happy hours are some of her favorite things to do. And by the time you hear this podcast, she will also have put away her first 100K. Hell fucking yeah. Which only took two years. Most recently, Justine has appeared as herself on The Try Guys and A Little Late with Lilly Singh. She's also appeared as herself on Funny or Die, A&E, Lifetime, and VH1.

She was such a blast to interview and was, again, just so transparent and kind and supportive of our movement here. She answers all of our biggest questions about how she built a business with over a dozen income streams, how she manages the inconsistent finances of running a business, and how she's helping disrupt the stigma around both sex work and BDSM. If you've ever wondered what happens in a sex dungeon, this is the episode for you. Anyone who works in any sort of career that brings an inconsistent income, you're going to learn something here. And if you've ever wondered what happened in the life or wallet of a dominatrix, let's go ahead and get You're based in Los Angeles, right? Correct. Yes, I'm in Los Angeles. Do you like LA?

I've always really liked LA until recently. You know, I would usually travel. I was on the road about 30% of the time. So during the pandemic, that was the most I had ever been in Los Angeles. And then I started feeling like, wow, now I understand why people don't like it here so much. It's good for me. It's not so good for other people. And I think because it's getting to be so not good for other people, both people I know and people who are really struggling, like our homeless population,

is just, it's really getting to me because we are an incredibly wealthy city and resourceful, and we should be able to not have the, you know, the inequalities that I'm seeing on a daily basis of just kind of everyone having their worst day ever. So that's sort of bringing me down. I'm based in Seattle and our houseless issue is just everybody has a solution, but nobody actually like it never ends up working. And it's just, yeah, it's heartbreaking. It's gotten so much worse every single year. Yeah, it's really terrible and tragic. And I wish we would, you know, just put people in houses.

There's houses. Put them in there. You know, it's not like rocket science. Pay people a living wage. Hello. Yeah, it's. Yeah. I find going to LA, my best friend lived in LA for like eight years. And so she loves it. And every time I visited, I lived there for a month this earlier this year in the spring. And I went and just, there's certain restaurants restaurants there's certain areas that just feel extremely fake to me and I know that that's like the stereotype of LA but like I've found that out and then my friend my best friend totally well intentioned she's like well don't hang out there

and I'm like but the nature of my job like if I'm taking a business meeting unfortunately in the business I'm in it's like oh I'm meeting with like TikTok rep. And it's like we're going to one of those fancy dinners, which I'm very excited about. But like if I show up in anything less than like two hours of perfection that it took in my house before I left, like I feel so out of place. Like I love New York so much more than I love L.A. for that reason. that reason is like I walked around New York and like a sports bra and bike shorts and that was like my default like thing in in New York and didn't feel weird at all I don't know that's my my experience with LA well you know two things one I always say like you have to love a city for what it is and not hate it for what it's not in Los Angeles there's a bunch of like fancy pool parties and everyone looking beautiful and you know you know fulfilling the rest of my totally typical LA day I am going to a pool

party later where we're just like hanging out by the pool and having having a little like work date party so and then also too my friend once said about LA like you can you always know who's the most important person in the meeting by like who is purposely dressing down the most and wearing like flip-flops and a hoodie like very tech bro interesting so that's the power move is the dress down so you mentioned like pre-pandemic 30 percent of your work you were traveling was that client work yeah um sometimes it was like i would i had a pretty robust tour schedule of traveling to other cities, but I also was just going on a lot of vacations a lot. So I don't know how much of that probably about half and half was like tour and then some vacation time that was just not any client based. So

I miss that. I'm getting back to that this year. You moved from New York to LA, right? So can you walk me through like, what was that journey like? And then what was your origin story of becoming a dominatrix? Yeah. Well, I went to school in New York and I, when I graduated college with, I have degrees in literature and psychology, I moved to Los Angeles about 15 years ago. And the joke I always make is that when you have a liberal arts education, you just kind of have to go into sex work. So that's what I did.

No, I worked, I had other jobs like regular jobs, but then I kept getting laid off and I was doing dominatrix work part-time at a commercial studio. A commercial studio is where you have shifts and there's other people on staff there. You're paid as an independent contractor, but you're not really an independent contractor. After the last job that I had that I got laid off from, I just decided, okay, let me try doing dom work full-time and see what happens

and collect unemployment. And then I realized, oh, wow, I'm so much happier. I'm making so much more money. My schedule is so much more flexible and it's just so much better what I want to do. So being a full-time dom and then getting my own studio, Dungeon West, because I realized I was renting other people's studios and paying their mortgage. I don't want to do that. I opened Dungeon West, have that running as its own business where I was using it for my own sessions, as well as other people using it for theirs and shoots and overnights and parties and stuff like that.

And then I decided to double down on that and open another space, Dungeon East, which by the way, is absolutely bananas. Like no one has had like two dungeons running in LA at the same time. That was nuts. I can't believe I did that. And then, you know, ran those sort of three businesses that were all related, but at the same time. And then, you know, during the pandemic, I did have to close down Dungeon West in October of 2020. But Dungeon East is still running and, you know, everything is going well. So, yeah. That's amazing.

Okay. So if I have heard the word dominatrix before, but don't know exactly what that means, in layman's terms, can you explain what a dominatrix does, who a dominatrix is? Tell me all about it. Yeah. Well, I would say that dominatrix is probably more used for a professional sex worker. Although I want to clarify that I'm also a lifestyle dom. So this is what I do in my personal life as well. And this is something that I enjoy. But a professional dominatrix would be someone who is doing BDSM from a top or dominant perspective of things. So that could include things like corporal punishment, foot fetish, financial domination, electro play, things like that. I am exchanging money for my time for those services. And a lot of what I do is, well, I do in-person work,

but I also have, because of the pandemic, have quite a robust online presence as well in terms of doing online sessions through text, phone, cam, videos, selling my socks, stuff like that. Only fans. Loyal fans. Oh, I have so many questions for you. Oh my God. Okay. So what brought you to this in particular? Were there any other forms of sex work that were interesting to you? Like, did you ever either dabble or were you interested in anything else? Not really. I mean, honestly, you know, many years ago I was interested in doing escorting and the only reason I didn't is because of the, the illegality and the screening process. I just didn't feel like I was up to be

able to do that for me personally. And then, you know, just doing dom work, just I fell into it really easily and really naturally. And again, it was something that I was doing in my personal life. So it was really easy for me to make that leap or, you know, just take over and doing that professionally. And yeah like what it's been working out really well yeah are dominatrices only women is it like is there a different term if you're a male identifying person doing dom work non-existent no i'm sorry uh i'm like there's no alpha males you know was that you know that was some other tiktok this morning um no okay yes okay let's not be male domphobic. Okay. Male

doms exist, but I would say they're dominant or male doms. Like, so dom, it would be like dom female would be D-O-M-M-E and male dom would be D-O-M. I mean, everyone has their own moniker and how they want to be referred to. So, you know, I use mistress, dominatrix, dom, dominant. I was going to ask you, how would you like to be, to be referred to so you know I use mistress dominatrix dom dominant I was gonna ask you how would you like to be to be referred on this podcast do you do you want the full mistress because I'll give it to you well you gotta pay for it Tori um you can call me just yeah I say that you only get to call me mistress when you're down on your knees and your wallet is in my hands. Ah, there we go. So one of the concepts as a financial educator that I've wondered about and heard about is,

you mentioned earlier, being a fin dom. Talk to me about that. Is money really the object or is it just like a tool, like anything else that you might use in BDSM? Yeah, I mean, it's both. I mean, like, look, anything that you're doing in this profession is for the money. It's a job. It's my career. So and, you know, I would say that I'm I dabble in FINDOM like I wouldn't because that's not the main source of my income or what I'm doing is just certainly like one of the most interesting aspects, I think, of like femdom fin dom things um but yeah it's someone it's you know the exchange is that you know someone is giving me a lot of money or so much more money than i would normally consider with fair trade for some kind of product or interaction with them where it's like i

could just be chatting with someone and I say, okay, well, if you want me to keep chatting with you online, you have to just tip me a hundred dollars. And they're like, oh, okay. So, and you know, to just continue the chat, but we would be chatting anyway and they're paying for that exchange, but they're just paying so much more for that. Exorbitant prices. Yeah. And it's about that control financially, right? Is that the appeal? Yeah. I mean, well, it's not so much my desire. I mean, about that control financially, right? Is that the appeal? Yeah. I mean, well, it's not so much my desire. I mean, well, of course, it's my desire in the way that it's everyone's desire to get a lot of money for just kind of sitting here and looking pretty. But, you know. Right. But like a client, they're coming to you for that kind of like

control aspect or being controlled. Yes, they are. But it's also things like, yes, they want to be there, have their accounts drained or, you know, give me lots of money or buy my clips or, you know, buy me presents and clear my wishlist or just pay a bill or something like that. So all kinds of different things. For you as someone who has that level of control, like I would think, obviously I'm not a professional, I am not doing what you're doing, but like, I think to myself, like, how much could I get away with? You know, like how, how crazy can I like, does that ever cross your mind? Do you ever feel like guilt or is it like, oh, let's see how far we can push this? Well, I always say guilt is not an emotion I feel readily. Well, I mean, and also,

you know, well, there's sort of things to keep in mind. One, just logistically, most platforms have a limit on how much someone can give you in the day for these exact reasons, because they don't want chargebacks. And generally, it's around $ around 500 which isn't that much money um you know some sites don't have that limit but it's like if so so the other thing is that if i'm draining a client um and if it's a new client i'm gonna check in and say hey just want to check in with your limit right now because we're about up to this much do you want to keep going because it's important to have consent even when you're online even when you're doing financial domination you know or sometimes like i will ask a client like

what is your daily limit for spending with me or weekly or monthly or do you want to give me a budget and you know what does that look like for you so yes you you didn't have consent and yes it's hard to like drain them until they cry and stuff. But it's it's all part of the game that we're all consenting to. Yes, it's hot to drain them until they cry. Can I put it on a tissue? But the consent. Yeah, that makes sense of like, do you have basically like what's your budget? What's your budget for me to go crazy? And for you, like, do they specify, oh, I just want cash or, oh, I want to pay you in gifts?

Like, how does that work? Do you get to dictate that or do they dictate that? Sometimes it's both. I mean, some people really only want to do one thing. Like, they only want to give you money in this one way. And sometimes you can tell them, oh, I really need this thing on my wish list or these things. And that can happen. I'm just wondering if you have a whole closet full of like Dior saddlebags,

like you open the closet and they come and they like fall out. You're like, oh, another one. Oh, God. Okay. I don't because I'm not a fan of Dior saddlebags, but I do have many closets of shoes and lingerie and latex. And I'm actually just constantly like going through stuff to sort of get rid of a lot of things that I've just built up over the years. Like when I closed Dungeon West, I collected a lot of my stuff that was in like three, I had like six closets across town,

you know, from my house and the two dungeons to just like kind of get rid of everything when we moved. And I don't think I could have sold anything more, but I'm still just finding stuff like constantly like, oh, okay, I don't need this anymore. I don't need this. And like, you know, just to keep recycling and refreshing things. But, you know, I don't get too many doubles of things. Although one time, like through a weird lark, I ended up with like three Jenga games and I had to get rid of them. And because someone wanted me to do a custom clip with Jenga and then he

ordered one and then I ordered one and then someone else ordered me one on my wishlist. And I'm like, I can't, I posted on my personal Facebook. It's not a long story, but I don't care to tell it. I have three Jenga games who wants them and, you know, was able to give up the people. I immediately, my brain goes like, how can we make Jenga sexy?'m like all right there's a king yeah got it well and that brings me to a you transition perfectly of like what are some of the costs of being a dominatrix like you were talking about like latex and heels and like what are what are the the like laundry list of things you need to do in order to do your job? Okay. So much. Well, you know, let's see, like nails, hair, makeup, you know, I'm right now

we're sitting in my, my dungeon at my office. So this is in my home. This is where I see clients in person, but it's where I do all my virtual things and recording, you know, just basic LA lady maintenance, like lasering and Botox and stuff like that. My studio Dungeon East is, you know, a certain cost, but you know, it mostly is, it's more than made up by all the renters, you know, shoes, lingerie. I mean, luckily now I'm at a point in my career where, and also I'm just asking for a lot more, but a lot of companies are sending me things. So I'm trying not to buy so many things. I'm trying to either get people to buy them for me or have companies send me things

and just having different looking relationships with people. It's just great being an influencer. That free shit. I've made a, I've made a like secret promise to myself that I don't want to pay for a first class ticket. Like I want to get either flown out somewhere or I want to like get upgraded. Like that's my goal is to like, hopefully never pay for a first class ticket. It's, it's, it's exorbitantly expensive. It's like 800 to eight grand. And you're like, what? That's like a thousand dollars an hour for a nap, you know? And then the lie down seats I have. Yeah. That's my other secret dream is to fly lying down at some point. And then every time I'm like, Oh, let me see for this flight. And then

it's like $4,000 in addition to the 500 you've already paid. And I'm like, Nope, Nope. Can't do it. Can't bring myself to do it. It's insane. I'm going to Argentina and Antarctica this fall. And I was, it's a trip from last year that got moved. And my client that I'm going with took care of my flight and ticket and everything. And he got me like the one level below like the lay down. So I was like, okay, I don't know why you don't want to just get me the lay down. You have like literally a million miles, but fine. So I upgraded myself and then the flight canceled and they would not refund me. I was like, are you serious? And I can't like, yeah. So I upgraded myself and then the flight canceled and they would not refund me. I was like, are you serious? And I can't like, yeah. So, I mean, it was like not that much,

but still it's just on principle that like, you're not going to like give it to me. You sold that seat, you know, or canceled that flight. Right. so you mentioned like pre-pandemic your business versus either in pandemic or i don't know if we're post-pandemic even what happened to your business during covid like we know obviously a lot of people doing sex work lost a lot of clients lost a lot of income. What was that reality like for you? The reality for me was I pivoted on a dime. And, you know, I sat down with my partner, you know, in our living room, and I had a whiteboard. And I said, this is how much money I used to make. And we need to figure out how to do that again. So because I looked at the data, and I realized, okay, it doesn't matter what like the government is saying that we're going to reopen in five weeks, six weeks, you know, kept pushing that date. I realized like this isn't going to change until there's a cure or there's a vaccine and that end isn't anywhere in close sight.

So luckily between my partner and my best friend, we were our little COVID pod. We all agreed on what we were going to be doing in terms of contact with other people. And I realized that we had to put everything online. And it was really intense because, you know, we had to cancel classes, move them to online. Then we just, you know, I had to sort of get the gears going again about my online business because I'd always dabbled in online things like, you know, phone sex and camming and, and, you know, clips and stuff like that. But it was never a huge part of my business. I would say it would be be 85% of my business was dependent on in person things, whether that was my one on one work with clients or events that I would host and things like that. And then the rest of it was online.

So I already had a start, but I didn't really use it that much. It hasn't been updated since, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago. So getting all of that going and then creating content. So in addition to just re-upping everything and doing the things like, oh, let's like overhaul my websites and do this and that kind of thing. Then we created content. So we created new classes. We created new events. We also, and when I say we, I'm sorry, my partner was working with me as someone that I hired, but she's not like a part of my business. It was just at that time where she wasn't quite sure what she wanted to do with her business. So it was like, okay, well, sex work makes the most money. Let's go with that. So we did that in that time. And we developed an event called LA King Pride.

So that was a series of all virtual events that we had over a week, you know, we developed an event called LA King Pride. So that was a series of all virtual events that we had over a week, but it was like classes and, and, you know, strip shows and like virtual play party and things like that. And then just, you know, we sold a lot of stuff. Like I sold a lot of dildos. I sold a lot of dick. I had so much extra stuff before i even knew that i was gonna have to close one studio um i just kept having sales and i had no idea people would buy like used dildos but they totally did they needed some kind of dick so they bought mine yeah and so and then you know dungeon west like i that makes sense but okay all right okay yeah i mean they were clean they were clean you know i'd clean them again oh they were clean okay i didn't know if that was part of the appeal like you know like buying

panties right as it's like i you know okay well that's what i said because i did sell a lot of my lingerie and you know stuff on poshmark i never knew that people would want you know agent provocateur like circa 2015 but wow that's sold like hotcakes. And so, yeah, but it was mostly just like doing everything online and realizing also I can make a lot more money online. And, you know, I tightened up a lot of things. I increased the rental rate of my studio. I also increased my rate of things when I was able to safely go back and see people in person to back, you know, fully vaccinated people. in person to fully vaccinated people, I only allow fully vaccinated people in my space once we were able to start doing events safely.

So yeah, I count myself really lucky. I always say it was a lot of blood, sweat, and someone else's tears. Another t-shirt. Okay, so this is probably my own naivete. You keep saying clips. What are clips? Oh, clips. So that would be, yeah, video short you know hair clips hey ha okay so um yeah it would be uh yeah short videos like usually around like 10 minutes like 7 to 10 minutes and this would be something

on like clips for sale or i want clips and you know also only fans you know things like that where you're selling your content you're literally just giving me transition after transition we have questions about OnlyFans so like I remember getting on TikTok for you know my business in 2020 and like all I heard about was like people making bank on OnlyFans like and maybe that was my own algorithm but like all I heard about was people quitting their job as a nurse or quitting their job as a flight attendant and making a bunch of money on OnlyFans. So what have you learned about the finances of using different platforms like OnlyFans? What else is out there? We also know, I think they've increased steadily the cut that

they take over the past couple of years. what is your experience with those kind of platforms? Yes. Okay. So, well, OnlyFans, I mean, I think everyone knows what it is, but basically it's an online platform where people can sell their content and the cut is 80-20 across the board, which at that time was an industry high. So when you hear in other industries, like, you know, like know like 80 20 like that doesn't sound very good but for sex workers that's a huge cut because like we're unfortunately very scrutinized um and

discriminated against even if like the sex work that we do is legal because sex work is a huge umbrella term so if you do only fans like that is sex work okay i mean not the people that they currently feature on their only fans which are like chefs or boxers. I mean, I don't know what goes down in the DMs for them. Right. There's some people creating content on OnlyFans where it isn't sexual, either like, yeah, they're using almost like a Patreon. And then there's some people on OnlyFans who are, I guess, technically doing sex work, but they're like not nude. Like there's like that content as well. Right? Yeah. No no of course of course i mean but i think that uh yeah the people who are making you know the most money are people who are well

we already have like a built-in social media following of like in the millions um or doing nude content so i personally don't do nude content or um any kind of solo masturbatory content and stuff that's just for me. It's like dominant only. So, you know, what I will say about that and OnlyFans in general is that like I'm really honestly just super happy if it is helped women and people who are just minorities and not able to make enough money and they were able to quit their shitty fucking jobs that weren't paying them enough.

I'm really happy for them if they were making bank on OnlyFans and making a ton of money. That being said, I think there's a lot of problems with the company. And one thing for me is that I actually every time I sign in now, I have to do a biometric test to prove that I am me and only me can sign into my OnlyFans. And that's a really huge problem because to my OnlyFans. And that's a really huge problem because guess what? The top people on OnlyFans are not the people doing their OnlyFans. They have a team of people doing their OnlyFans. It's like hiring somebody to run your Instagram. Of course. Yeah. So I am not making a ton of money on OnlyFans because I have to buy a...

Because you think I have time to do my yeah so so that really sucks and I'm completely calling them out they will not change it they refuse to change it and they refuse to say why that they've changed it and it's really stupid because it wasn't a big it was never like a big money earner for me but it's something that I keep but it's not my favorite thing and then because of you, they won't promote sex workers and sex workers are the people who built that platform. And then, you know, of course they did this thing where I think it was like a year ago where they said, okay, well, we're not going to let you do any sexual content. And everyone's like, but that's literally all I do. You know what I mean?

And then they like in 24 hours, they reneged and it was like I mean like that's a lot in an industry where you already feel like you're fucked half the time even if you're making bank all not in a fun way yeah no not in a good way not in a bad way like definitely in like a non-consensual without loo but in a creepy way that you don't like kind of way um so you know so it's complicated and it's like, I, I haven't deleted mine. I keep, you know, I just kind of have it as like a place where people can find me just because of the name recognition, but you know, they have no customer support. They've like withheld money for me from other people. They've like locked people out of like their DMS where they couldn't DM people for a month.

And that's like where people make their money. So it's, it's definitely not my favorite company, but it's certainly one that you can make a lot of money doing. For me, in terms of like online platforms that are better, I would say Loyal Fans, which, you know, came out of OnlyFans not being the best in our industry. But, you know, again, I just always want to say that if this is helping people make more money and make more income and getting out of bad situations where they're not financially, you know, independent, I always think it's best to have these methods where these platforms, we can use that to get out. Yeah. So you have online work, you have your work at the dungeon, walk me through all your income streams. Oh my God. I blink 16. Okay. So, all right,

let's, let's just go down the list. Okay. So I do a lot of stuff with event, right? Um, so I do a lot of classes and events, um, pretty robust guy. I'm not sure when this is airing. I meant to ask you before we started, but I have a lot of stuff going on all the time for classes that I teach events, uh, play parties, um, as well as I also have guest instructors. So it's not always me. A lot of, let's see. So next would be rentals. So rentals for the studio, that's a large part of my income, as well as doing like media appearances and work like glorified extra kind of stuff or, you know, being hired as an expert or things for like, you know, Try Guys, as we were talking about earlier.

Oh, yes. Also dungeon rentals in terms of pro doms using the space. So yeah, all of when I say rentals for the dungeon, that means other pro doms, lifestyle people who are renting it for hourly rentals or overnights, some events, I'm very picky about events, but also production, whether that's stuff for like kink.com or Lifetime. So a lot of different kinds of things, you know, it's the dungeon for your dom or your mom. Okay, so then all my other income streams. So a lot. Okay, so we have Night Flirt, which is a phone sex, you know, one of the oldest like phone sex ones. So you're mostly doing phone, some cam, texting, stuff like that. Clips for sale. I want clips.

Those are, you know, the clip site stores with videos. Okay. And then OnlyFans and LoyalFans, those are subscription-based sites where you can sell a lot of content as well. There's also Sex Panther, which I love. I mean, it's the best name, best name, which is another, yeah, it started off with obviously just texting. But you can sell clips on there. And they do phone and cam and stuff like that. And that one, honestly, is my favorite. I started it right before the pandemic. And I was glad that I did. And that was really, really wonderful. Yeah, and then sessions and just, you know, straight up people giving me cash and donations and loading up my catch up and yeah, all of that. So a lot. Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot one. Okay. And also Gumroad.

Gumroad. So I also, all my classes are, if you missed it live or the virtual versions, I've recorded all of them and they're on Gumroad so you can access them anytime. Does that feel overwhelming? I'm overwhelmed just hearing that like that's that's a lot of a lot of things. It is very overwhelming. And I've sort of cut back on some of those things. And I'm sort of figuring out what what I want to do for next year, because it's like this year, like the last two years, we're just like, playing catch ass, you know, and this year is just kind of like, okay, let's get back to our regularly scheduled stuff and see how that goes. And it's going and I'm looking at my business plan for next year and what I want to do. And because you know, I kind of became a cubicle dom. Like, I never meant to spend this much time in my office, in my dungeon at Dungeonette. And so I

want to get out there more. I want to get out there in the world and be in front of other people. You want to lie flat on that airplane? Yeah, well, I'm definitely back up to like my regularly like travel time more or less. But I want to, yeah, I want to be outside more. So I don't have to worry about whatever plague is plaguing us next. And I want to be around more people. So just figuring out what how I want to do that. And also after doing like such a robust schedule of classes and events for the last three years through my own platforms, I've sort of exhausted my my base. I mean, I'm also severely shadow banned on like everything. So it's kind of hard to get out a lot of stuff, you know, and then like, you know, partly inspired by you and another

person I just interviewed on their podcast as well, very robust, TikTok. So like, okay, I'm gonna get back on TikTok and like, like things and post things. It's like, I have six imposters on TikTok that they will not take down. I got reported for posting like a wet emoji on someone's content. I can connect you with somebody at TikTok who hopefully can help you get those imposters taken down. So I will write, I will make a note for myself. That would be very helpful. But you know, I'd also like to get my OG account back because I did, I'm very tame on there. Like I don't do anything that's problematic. I do like unboxing videos and you know, like, you know, I don't do anything that pushes the envelope and i don't even know why so that was my next question help me out with that because it's well and the interesting thing

the interesting thing is like our entire business is largely built on social media right like other than me being a little too feminist and sometimes i think we get shadow banned for just being like this is patriarchal bullshit like where you, you know, there's no real threat to our social media accounts, as opposed to something that you do. Unfortunately, what happens, right, is it's like this incredible platform like TikTok or Instagram that has the potential to grow your business, you can't take full advantage of. And I imagine that's incredibly frustrating. Oh, it's extremely frustrating. And I've been talking very openly a lot about it is because, you know, I, you know, so many small content creators rely on TikTok and Instagram and Twitter and all of these things to grow their business. But unfortunately, these are really poorly run businesses. And, you know, this is something that happens to people on TikTok and Instagram, of course, like in the sex worker world who, you know, sometimes they post things that shouldn't be on there. And sometimes they're like, absolutely, I posted nothing on there. That was problematic. But they're also doing things like, you know, they're

banning other people's accounts that are not in the adult industry world whatsoever. Like, you know, one of my assistants, like she was telling me that her, her, her eight year olds, you know, account got taken down. She's like, I have to look at everything she posts. And she's just posting like silly videos, dancing with the dog. You know, clearly the eight-year-old isn't, you know, there was just for fun. It wasn't like, I'm trying to make my child a star. So. Oh, my friend who creates travel content, her name's Chanel. She got her account suspended on TikTok. And I had to reach out to my contact at TikTok and be like hi can you help and then she got you know the account re-upped but like no reason no reason at all just it doesn't show in like the back end like what happened and like what you know she gets like a content warning

but she was like I again like I'm talking about like the credit card points to help you get to Paris for free she's like it's not I it was no way violating any rules or regulations i always wonder like is this i've i'm always asking and i never hear if this happens to men because i'm only pretty much always talking to women no but i mean it's like i teach a class about instagram about how to try to hold on to your instagram account because like you know fucking it's called fuck instagram like get your power back and i say change it to male change hold on to your Instagram account. Cause like, you know, fucking it's called fuck Instagram, like get your power back. And I say, change it to male, change your gender to male in the backend. And that helped TikTok doesn't have that. And I don't know if, you know, cause I was like, Oh, maybe if I change it, it won't, it'll, you know but when I, cause I had my Justine

account as male, and then I was getting a ton of account violations, you know, on my dungeon East one. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting i went in the back end for dungeon east i changed it to mail no more account violations came up oh interesting yeah oh i'm gonna literally try that like right after this yeah i i think i mean twitter right they've taken down trump they've taken down i think ben shapiro's not allowed on Twitter anymore. So like, I think Twitter's done a little, I think they've done a little bit more, but like, yeah, I can't tell you the amount of times that I have had incredibly violating comments sent to me and I have screenshots and I go to Instagram and I'm like, take them down. And they're like, we don't see that they're violating anything. And I'm like, I just showed you that I just showed you that this person called me this

thing. And so, yeah, it's it's really it is really problematic because what is it saying that when we, you know, for any of these social media platforms that they allow hate speech and bullying and quite frankly, under, you know, minors doing sexual things like C-scratch, you know, they allow that they absolutely allow that. And, you know, they're not taking down imposter accounts and Instagram used to be better about it. I finally, you know, I got a bunch more taken down and it's, it's hard because people are, you know, taking money from people like DMs and stuff. And, you know, for Twitter, like, one of my friends

told me that if you say your location is in Germany, you'll actually be because Germany has a very strict policy against any kind of like hate speech or anything like that. So if anyone does that to you in Germany, they have to make all these reports and stuff. So Twitter doesn't want to deal with that. So they'll like kick people or something like that. But I can look it up for you later if you want. But I haven't had a problem on Twitter with like, hate, you know, that kind of thing happening. But yeah, it's just like a real problem. Why? Why are we not taking down people who are, you know, Nazis? Right. Fascists. But, you know, sex work is somehow so scandalous.

No. Yeah. I don't know i mean it really depends on what it is it's just really like i mean again it's like i don't know and there's and i think that i think the main problem is like they're you know you're you're talking to just some bot and there's no real conversation so it feels very coughed up you can't get a hold of anybody at instagram no or any social media And it's like, you know, they clearly have, it's I, from what I understand, it's like bots will take down certain things, but then there's supposed to be a human looking at the review. So it's like, are people just mad there? And they're just like, no, I don't like you back. You know, I don't, I don't know what's

happening there. Like, it's really hard. So it's hard when you don't have a conversation because like i know that a lot of content creators if we had a very specific guideline about what we were allowed to do or not allowed to do we would do it you know like no one wants to lose their instagram that's like never anyone's goal and some people are fucking dumb and they're just going to do whatever anyway but like most people want to abide by the rules because it's an important tool that people like and want to use yeah there are no guidelines and it does feel very often like like we you know we curse on our pages and we've even seen from the data of like you have to like star out your cursing in captions if you want to be featured right so it's like but that's all hearsay or like, to your point of like, somebody changed their gender to male in the background, and then it

was fine. Like, you know, it's all of those kind of, like through the grapevine kind of regulation or like tips rather than Instagram or any of these platforms being like, here's directly what's allowed. Like side boobs allowed, nipple isn't. Like, great, cool, thank you. Exactly. And it's like, you know, and I've worked with companies that are in the millions of followers and verified, and they say they will not give us a straight answer either. And so it's not, you know, and that's a problem. It's like, why do you not want people to know how to use your platform? Like, why are we in this Kafka-esque-esque mystery there's no reason there's no reason let's have a conversation let's know what the boundaries are let's know what we can do what

we can't do what we might be able to get away with um and again it's like they're because these i feel like these companies have grown so quickly so fast there isn't an infrastructure internal review system that makes sense and quite honestly i think that there's a lot of incels who work in them. Like, why? Why are so many like, beautiful women who are adult, sexy ladies, like getting their accounts? You know, taken down, and we can't get them back. Like, no one sucked a dick at Instagram. Like, how is this possible? Like, I know, one stepped on a dick there. Like, how is this possible? Like I mysteries, mysteries. I don't know. Right.

And then you'll have some of, you know, like I know a lot of sex shops will do the like classic, like fruit. And then, you know, as like a vague, not so vague innuendo.

And then sometimes that can stay and sometimes it can't. So it's just, yeah, there's no, there's no sorts of guidelines for it at all. It's, it's just yeah there's no there's no sorts of guidelines for it at all it's it's crazy i'm doing a hard shift but i i love janelle monae's make Me Feel video. And you got to work as a consultant on that video. You work as a consultant for media and film. What does that work look like? And especially with things like intimacy coordinators, I think being more and more required for film sets,

like what does that transition look like for you? Yes. Well, you know, when I'm working on, yeah, the music video is really wonderful. The part that I worked on is like that, you know, vac bed scene, that pink vac bed that, you know, mysteriously like disappeared from set that day. But anyway, yeah, being on set is really interesting because in some ways it's fun for me because I feel like, oh, I can get out of my, my dungeonette. I can go do other things with other people. And there's like a certain cool factor, but then in some other ways where, again, because like, I'm not the star and I'm getting paid like a decent amount of money, but like, I certainly make a lot there. There's this point where you're like looking around at other people. And again, like when I'm i do two different things when i'm on mainstream media either i'm working as a consultant

like i did with the janelle monae video or some other things or i'm like a glorified extra where i'm playing myself um but i'm still kind of more of like a background actor and stuff and you know for the the things where i'm the bdsm consultant i feel like more in my power and it's cool because people are asking me for what i need them to do and stuff like that. And, you know, with intimacy coordination, that's really helpful too. But, you know, that being said, doing glorified back, like extra work kind of things, you know, I'm looking around at other people who are getting paid less money than I am and being there on set for 12 hours a day. Like you want this life? Cause I don't like, I make a lot more money like sitting at home in my sweatpants

and that's what I'd rather be doing right now. But I also am doing things like I'm on Sex Panther the whole time that I, you know, like was on set for Euphoria and I made like double my money. Everyone else is sleeping in the auditorium. I was like, I'm going to work, you know? So.

Yeah. So it feels almost for the resume or for the clout not necessarily for the money not yet not until i have my own show and i will change my tune you know um because again i'm always like um the the you know the sidekick or the person for the day so until i start doing things like having my own my own show show doing that, then it, then it's going to be different for me. Yes. Well, and in, in planning for next year, cause you have all those income streams, is it, I want to do more of the work I like, is it, I'm going to spend more time doing what I

know makes a lot of money. Like, what is your thought process going into next year about where you're going to spend the most time? Yeah. It's going to be slightly different where, I mean, I'm already making a lot of money and I'm saving a lot of money. So that's really good. I think that I want to, it's, yeah, there are a lot of income streams and it's hard to focus on one. And I, you know, I know a lot of people who just do OnlyFans or something and I have like all these different things. And it's kind of hard to stop because it's one of those things where

you never know what site is going to make you the most money someday. You know, you're just sitting there. It's like, okay, well, I'm going into work. And you know, here's like, I'm gonna, you know, put all my lines on and see what happens. And it's like, one could be dead, and the other one is hopping. And you don't know why. I mean, it's just like consistency, you know, or, you know, different things come up being in Los Angeles. Like I have a lot of opportunities to do a lot of different things, but I think for next year, what I, you know, want to be focused, well, for this year, I want to finally get my own podcast up,

but also be working on things like teaching for other people in other places. Cause again, I've just realized, I feel like I've exhausted the people in other places because again i just realized i feel like i've exhausted the people who i know and in my um in my immediate community and i just want someone else to handle all the media media and marketing and emails because it's getting exhausting as fuck like constantly having to battle like eventbrite like i mean every time i get a hold of someone at eventbrite it's great but it's like the email exchanges are, I feel like I'm like, we're girlfriends and we're going through a breakup. Cause I'm like, well, what about this and this and that? And they're like,

okay, well, well that was okay. Cause then there's this, I was like, yeah, but now you said that. So now I got to know about this. And I'm like, God, I just want to take these ladies out to like a drink, you know? But I mean, I'm, you know, I'm a business owner and I have to fight for my business because the things that unfortunately are happening sometimes are affecting my business and I need to fight for that, but I'm getting a little tired of fighting all the time. And I want to, you know, teach with other, you know, other companies and in other places that are outside of the adult industry. And all of that energy that goes to that, right, is either time and energy you could be spending elsewhere, but also just as exhausting trying to battle

something that you're hoping to win, but maybe you won't. Like that's got to be frustrating. Yeah, it is super frustrating. And I tweeted the other day where I said, I'm really tired of doing everyone else's job today. Can everyone else just do their job out of boredom? Can you just do your fucking job? Yeah, please. Thank you. Because I'm exhausted. And I was sort of joking with my partner where I just kind of was like moping in the living room. She's like, oh, what's wrong, babe? And I'm like, I don't know. I just don't want to work. She's like, are you okay? And I said, yeah, I just have to do this and I can do it. But I'm just tired because I am doing a lot of this other stuff. And I'm just tired because I am, yeah, doing a lot of this other stuff.

And I'm just tired that I'm fighting a lot for things the way that they should be. And they're just not. And if I can get a hold of someone, I can fix it. But until I get a hold of someone, I can't. Do you feel like the stigma around BDSM, around sex work is changing? Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, I mean like, look, like we've had two shows in the last like year bonding and you know, how to build a sex room and great. I mean, well, one of them is, but you know, it's like they're, you know, Fifty Shades of Grey was in the airport.

Terrible book, obviously. And, you know, seriously. I was just about to ask your opinion on Fifty Shades. Well, yeah, it definitely encourages, you know, abuse because, you know, you're sitting next to your partner and you're hitting them. You're like, get a load of this book. It fucking sucks, you know. But it's, you know, all of that like helps bring, bring it into the mainstream. And it's like, you know, now, you know, I've had,

I've been doing this for over 15 years. I've had a dungeon for over 10 at this point, one or two. And now when people call me or email me more often than not, there is a woman calling me to book something either with me or a couple session or to book the space. And that's really changed. That never happened before. It was always men, always men booking it, always men calling me to book something with me. And now it's not.

And I mean, and that's on the binary. There's like a lot of people who are not identifying as, you know, as gender nonconforming who are also contacting me, which is changing because I'm, you know, very openly queer and in the queer community. What sort of safety precautions do you take in your work that you feel are necessary for your privacy, for your safety? Like what do you have to do in order to protect yourself? In terms of when I see clients in person or? I mean, that one is the big thing I'm thinking about. Yeah, well, I mean, luckily I've been around

for a really long time. So, you know, a lot of my clients are regulars, although coming out of the pandemic, I've never seen so many new people before because everything changed for everyone. You know, people moved away, people worked it out with their partners or they did it and they moved and now they have, they're getting divorced and they have no money, you know? So there's, you know, everyone has to fill out a booking form. They have to send me their COVID vax card and a deposit and confirm two hours before. And that's usually fine for me. I've never felt

like I was in danger. Someone, you know, more than one person always knows where I am. You know, I'm always checking in with my partner and my best friend and saying like, here's where I am. I'm on my way home, stuff like that, you know. And I don't really ever feel unsafe, you know, in my sessions. That's really comforting to hear because I was worried that there was a lot of horror stories. So that's actually really lovely. No, I mean, like, knock on wood, like, I really don't have any and like, you know, but it's, um, you know, I'm pretty picky about the clients that I see at this point. And it's like, if there's any like idea that it's not going to work out like i mean they can't even get to my booking process i

just hang up on them it's not like you know so it's i'm like i can't be bothered you know people hear me talk to people like this i'm like oh my god you're so rude and what a bitch like don't you think you should talk to them and like get them in and i'm like no no because literally you're like i'm a fucking dominator you want me to be you want me to be sweet and docile yeah well it's also just like look like why are you calling me like in order for you to call me like you got my number somewhere not on my website and everywhere that you know there's no so why are you calling you know right no right have you run into a client in public and is it like therapy where you have to like, act like you don't know? Has that happened? Um, you know, let me think. Yeah, I did run into a

client at a party at like a holiday party. It was like a queer holiday party. So they're in the queer community. And I'm like, Hey, and I just was like, I don't know if I'm supposed to know you or what's up. And you know, and I'm like, Hey, do I know you? And then they said, Oh, yeah, you saw me for a session. I was like, Okay, cool. I didn't know if I could say to know you or what's up and you know and um I'm like hey do I know you and and then they said oh yeah like we you saw me for a session I was like okay cool I didn't know if I could say that of course I know who you are you know um but but not really I mean it's like because the because I'm mostly in queer circles and I mean like obviously I go out to like you know fancy dinners and stuff I I haven't really seen my clients in any other way so yeah you know they'll come to my events or something like that um but it's not yeah I've

been really I wouldn't act like I knew them unless like it was okay I'd kind of be like you know yeah that's what I was wondering like you run into them and like chipotle and you're like do we say something well I guess as long as we don't run into each other at Taco Bell, it's okay. So you mentioned you host in-person classes. Walk us through a class at the dungeon. Who are they for? What's the experience like? Walk us through one of those.

Okay. So it's basically two hours of me making you laugh at my jokes and giving you information on BDSM. So the class. Oh, so it's stand up. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah. I'm working on my type five. No, I'm not that much of a douche. No, I am. Yeah. I, so the, the classes that I do, I do a BDSM one-on-one class. I do exploring your dominant personality, persona rather, exploring your submissive persona, an impact play class. And let's see what else do I do? I feel like I do another Oh, I do a play party class about

how to find play parties and you know, do doing fun things there. So yeah, the classes that I do are mostly lecture style, but I leave a lot of room for questions and people picking my brain about things and that. Some of them we do have some demo or an exercise. In the Play Pretty class, we do an exercise called the Yes, Maybe, or No, where I get everyone up and you're forced to talk to each other and ask someone for something that you'd want to do to them or something that you want them to do to you and because i instruct everyone it makes it very easy you you know the only answers are yes maybe or no and that you know just calms everyone down especially the libras um you know and just make

sure that everyone you know gets that so it's it's a little know, it's a really fun exercise to do with people because I, all of my classes, I give real life examples for, not just in BDSM, like real world examples, I should say, where it's like, here are the skills that you're going to learn in my class about BDSM, but here's how you can apply that to the real world situation. You know, so like when your boss is like, can you come in tomorrow? And you're like, no. So, but you know, just finger at your boundaries and stuff like that. Yeah. One thing I've always wondered about play parties, about like classes, is there a level of amenity? Like if somebody shows up who is like like i if i show up at a class and somebody recognizes me is there some sort of barrier where they can't go and either like tell people about it

or like post on social media of like i was here and i saw this person like is there any sort of anonymity well jory you can come to my online class and just know, change your name to like Dory Funlass. I mean, I'm always curious. It's more like if I was like, if somebody, if a celebrity, like I imagine that there's there, I know that there's celebrities into this. Right. And it's like you show up at a party and you see a celebrity, like how is that celebrity like protected themselves from like, I don't know, not even outed because maybe they're not like embarrassed by it or like want to keep it private. I don't know. Like that's something I've wondered is like, is there an anonymity factor? Well, you know, we always say like what happens at the party stays at the party.

You know, that's, but I can't control what other people do unless they pay me a lot of money to make that happen. You know, that being said, like, you know, being that we're, you know, we're still, people are still wearing masks. So, you know, you can still wear a mask and like no one would think you're that weird at my party for wearing a mask. So there's that, but also it's like, you know, I do have people who are, you know,

have notoriety at my events and sometimes I recognize them and sometimes I don't. Like clearly like A-listers are not showing up to my party like that's not happening they're showing up to my dungeon for like a private session or I'm showing up to their place yeah but they're not like coming to that kind of public event for obvious reasons and you know that's happening but it's you know sometimes people are like oh my gosh like did you know this artist that person is over there and I'm like you know and then I look them up I'm like oh wow they're like really

famous like whoa cool you know but I I don't get there's so many famous people. I don't know everyone, you know, it's everyone has 100,000 followers on Instagram, you know, it's like, yeah, have you had to sign NDAs? You know, I did, for the first time ever, just this last few months to an event that I worked. And it was really strange because I said, okay, like I don't, you know, well, first of all, they gave it to me after I did it. So it was like, that's kind of not how that works. But you know, one, but, and I, and I felt kind of salty about it. I was like, well, I, I don't, I'm not in the business of like blackmailing people or like telling tales out of school.

And I talked to my lawyer about it and he's like, look, like clearly like the adult, the children had a party and the adults are now cleaning it up. So you have to sign it because otherwise it'll get around town that you didn't sign it. And then no one's going to want to hire you for this kind of thing. And I said, okay, fine. You know, and it's just so, you know, so that was the one time. And then every, it's come up a couple of other times. And I certainly have a lot of some clients who you would recognize, like in terms of being in like, you know, in like a media way. And then certainly other names that you would recognize in like a, you know, fortune 500 kind of way. But I only had to find one in 15 years in LA. And that's, that 500 kind of way but um i've only had a plane one in 15 years in la and that's that's kind of nuts that's really impressive actually i'm i'm shocked that people aren't

rolling up more frequently well you know some people want to get caught and some people i mean my god have so much money that like if i were to go rogue and say something they'd have no problem burying me like completely if i wanted to say that so i think it's just like a courtesy and also just like a lot of people don't care you know or maybe they want that fucked up experience i don't know i mean they can't really and it maybe speaks to you too of like they trust you or they trust that you know this is a business transaction that's like you know what or she's not gonna say anything and that like what happens in vegas stays in vegas like yeah yeah i mean again it's like something that i'm i'm open to doing but most people are like no that's fine i mean it's like i'm not like known for being like

blackmailing and doing a lot of drama on twitter i'm like here's my cat and okay i'm funny and mean and you know it's not like my vibe so do you find that like BDSM feels like therapy to some people like is is it like a form of therapy or like self-care for clients oh definitely yeah I think that I think that it can be I mean it's it's pleasurable it can it can be it's a release sometimes and I I definitely, I think it is. And I mean, I think that anything, it just kind of depends on what people define as self-care. You know, I think anything that feels good to us

and is giving us some healing is something that we should be doing on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, depending on what those things are. And I think during the pandemic, especially for me, like, you know, I take very good care of myself, and a lot of my self care was not available. And it was really hard trying to find those things. And so it's really, you know, I find it therapeutic for me as well, if someone wants to take it to that level, and trust me in that regard

to make it a very therapeutic, you know, kind of experience. But, you know, some people just want to fucking get off. That's cool, too. It doesn't have to be like whole high, you know, someone tweeted like, everyone stops saying sex work is therapeutic. I'm just here. I just have tits and you're just jerking off of them. And like, that's the end. Okay. And that's cool, too. Well, and I loved about because, you know, we were talking about this before the way I was introduced to you was um the try guys did like a trivia they do trivia all the time and then it was like it was BDSM and like they if they got a question wrong they were spanked by you and what I loved was like you checked in with every single one of them and was like is this okay how do you feel like how do you feel you because you you like built up to like

different, different ways of spanking them. And Eugene had like vulnerably shared that like he had been spanked as a child as a punishment. And I don't know if you saw the comments on that video, but I felt the same way. All of these comments were like, I love that. Like you had this very distinct moment where you asked him like, Oh, okay. Like, is this okay for you? Is this okay for you? And it was just and it was just it was so I think important to like see that consent in action and to see that like we all talk about like consent is sexy but to see it actually happen was so was so cool of just like you paused and you stopped and you're like okay is this is this going to be okay or is this going to be too much for you

and I just loved that moment thank you yes I definitely read and respond to all comments on all things. Thank you. I was glad that they kept that in. And it was really nice working with the producers of that because they really wanted to show consent on screen and keep that in. And you know, and also as I'm, as I'm getting older and doing this more often, I'm better about asking for what I want and what I want to keep in. And I say like, look, this can be funny and we'll make this sexy, but let's keep this consent part in. And it's really important. And they say, no, we really want to do that. And I say, we can make it funny and we can make fun of BDSM, but we can't make anyone feel bad about themselves or me. So I'm really glad that they kept that in. It was so important. And a lot of people, yeah, I did read all those comments where

I said, oh, thank you. That was so nice that you checked in with him again. And like, because there, it is a huge difference between consensual BDSM and abuse. And we need to understand like what that distinction is. And that distinction has to do with consent, just like there's a huge difference between sex work and sex trafficking. You know, there's no such thing as child prostitution. That's sex trafficking. That's child trafficking. Because the consent is not there. Again, yes, consent is sexy. And you must have an enthusiastic yes when you do things to your person. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, I didn't plan on asking this question. But I've talked with previous people I've dated about that that concept of enthusiastic, like an enthusiastic

yes or enthusiastic consent. Can you talk about what that is? Because I think it's so important because I grew up, I think most people, especially most women grew up like hearing like no means no, as opposed to yes means yes. Yeah, I think you. So consent needs to be enthusiastically given. It can be withdrawn at any time. Just because you say yes once doesn't mean you say yes forever. There's a cuter way to say this. It has an acronym with FRIES, and I can't remember what it is, but those are the facts. So I think that's really important. And we don't ask for consent, so then we don't get consent, and then consent does not happen. So yes, no means no. Yes means yes. In BDSM, we use a safe word. So no, in quotes, might not mean stop. It could be part of the play,

but this is why we use something called a safe word that will call a stop to the action. And that's why you can do something and have a really hot scene where you're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. And you can check in with someone and say like, but your safe word is mercy. And you know, if you want to say that you will stop the action. Right. And then someone's like, yes, I understand. No, no, no. Stop hitting me. You know, and it's fun. But, you know, this is really important to get. And, you know, this is something, again, in my classes, I talk about this in terms of the BDSM scene, but I also encourage people to do this in their vanilla, that is to say, non-BDSM sexual encounters to get consent and to ask for it and to ask for what you want and ask for what you want to be done to you and ask what you can do to that

other person, as well as non-sexual situations like, you know, going out to dinner with your partner and talking about what that looks like and how long you're going to stay and what you're going to do if someone says something racist and these kinds of things. Like, how do we set this up before and negotiate and how we check in with each other during this action, during the scene? What popular media about BDSM, like we talked about Fifty Shades, is the least accurate and what is the most accurate? I would probably say Fifty Shades is one of the least accurate in terms of the books, like all of it and the movies. The first and third one were terrible, but the second one, 50 Shades Darker, was actually really

quite good. And I, there was a lot of things in it that I really enjoyed about it and things that I would even do in my own personal sessions. So I thought that that was really good. Bad things, so many. I would say the first season of Bonding was just like, I mean, just so horrible. I think like in the first episode, they show someone like having something around their neck and then falling off a table. I mean, like literally people die this way. You know, don't put anything around anyone's neck. So that was really horrible. But then again, the second season, they hired consultants and it got like it did a 180 and i heard it was much better i haven't seen this but i always mention it because so many people recommend it and say it's really good is that there's a dom character in billions and that is supposed to be very

accurate and good um and i mean of course anything that i'm in but i think those are those are good starts yeah what do you feel like uh society gets wrong about bdsm beyond just like the actions or like what do you wish that people understood about your work it's always hard for me to answer that because i have so many friends in this world and who understand this world. So I don't know what the general public, that person from East Jesus, whatever. I mean, let's just talk about general things. Sex work is work. This is a career, this is a job, I pay my taxes, all of those things happen. And it needs to be really recognized and protected. Even though what I do with clients is under the umbrella of sex work, I'm not having sex with my clients. There's no like, you know, peen, vagine, if that's how you define sex, which is very narrow definition, but there's that. I think also that I didn't come from an abusive childhood. And that's

not why I like BDSM or want to do it to other people. Right. That's the 50 shades of gray thing, right? Was like he was abused by parents or parental figures or like he has trauma and that's why he does this now. Indeed. And, you know, this is something I was talking about with my partner and it's like, look, like the unfortunate reality is that many people come from abusive situations. The more people are coming from abusive situations, but some of them are into BDSM. That's false correlation is that people who are into BDSM,

that didn't happen because they were abused, because if that was true, literally everyone would be into BDSM. Because quite unfortunately, many people are from very abusive situations. Let's see. Yeah, I think, I don't know. What are the myths come up? I think those are the two big ones for me that I feel Let's see. Yeah. I think, I don't know. What are the myths come up?

I think that those are like the two big ones for me that I feel like I see a lot. So, but I don't know. I'm not, I feel like even like some of the way I phrased my questions, right. And I'm realizing this about myself, even talking to you is it's like, oh, this is something that a lot of people would like to keep secret. And to your point, it's like, maybe they don't, like, maybe it isn't as like secret and maybe like people feel it shamefully or something like that. Like it's not for many people. And it sounds like for most people, it's not, it's, that's not the reality. Um, no, I'm sorry. Let me go back. So I think that, yes, there is a lot of kink shaming and sex shaming. And yes, a lot of people do want to keep this secret um and that is very true i mean when they're seeing me they're seeing a professional

and they might not necessarily be telling their partner about that um or their friends it's like and i mean in a professional sense i see a lot of reasons for why you keep that secret but also in a personal sense you know and i was talking about this to another thing where it's like you know you might you're not going to tell people i mean like look there are people who really believe that like masturbation is cheating are you gonna like come on you know or only fans is cheating or going to a strip club is cheating uh so yes there is all of that, um, shamefulness, um, and also not understanding that sex work can be a tool for people, couples, or for people, individuals, and that, you know, the professional side of it shouldn't be shameful. It should be recognized and respected.

It doesn't have to be your cup of tea, but those things just need to happen. Um, in terms of in your personal life, yeah, a lot of people are shamed about it because of whatever society has told us and drilled into us in these terrible ways from our parents or school or society. And I always hope that it's getting better. I always feel like overall it does get better and it is better because of the large media representation. But also I live in this bubble of Los Angeles where all my friends are kinky and they come to all my party parties. Like, I don't know what it's like with someone else.

You know, I don't know if I took this show on the road to like, you know, Milwaukee. Like what would happen for people in different ways? You know, I don't know. And it's like um it i mean there's a lot of cultural differences you know my friend uh dr amy harwick was telling me about how she went to china and was talking about like uh sex with these women and they were saying like well and they said well if someone she if my husband cheats on me what i do she's like well then you have to decide what you want to do and how you want to have that discussion and they're like

what no we can't divorce anyone we can't that's not an option for us it's very different right well and it that sounds like it is you know it is weirdly a collective yet so individual experience right so it's like you have all of these things that are being these notions or these narratives that are being told or taught good and quote unquote bad, but then it's such an individual experience about what you're into, what turns you on, what feels good for you. And sometimes that is in direct antithesis to all of the things that we're taught on a societal level. Yeah. I mean, and also BDSM is so specific, it is so, so deeply specific about what that person looks like, and the skill set that they have, and where they're doing it, you know, the collective experience about BDSM might be at a

play party or a club where something BDSM is happening. But it's not the same as like a strip club, you know, where everyone's kind of in this room together. You know, escorting is also very individual, but in some ways more accepted and also put down more because a lot of people just don't understand BDSM because it's like the weird smaller thing in profession and like this huge umbrella of sex work where people kind of understand what a stripper is or does or an escort does um no one fucking knows what i do every day they don't they're like oh what's the dominatrix as we said earlier i don't know what that is what do we do i don't know right part of the reason why i had you on so i imagine if you're running your own business

it's just like any other business where you're setting it up financially for making sure you have savings, making sure you're paying your expenses. Can you break that down for us of what that looks like? What are you saving? What do you earn? And what does that look like? Yeah. So as we discussed earlier, there's 16 income streams, which is a lot. But they're not all rolling in thousands and thousands of dollars, but I'm keeping track of them. So I'm looking at my whiteboard right now because during the pandemic, I needed to track it a little bit more closely. And during the pandemic, one of the plus sides is that I came out financially ahead, even though everything was disrupted and changed in my business. So every Monday morning is accounting day. So I track what comes into each of those income streams and I write it down.

So it's a, you know, my Excel spreadsheet. And then I also look at all my bank accounts and, you know, cash apps and all those things and write down all of that money to see. So it gives me a total idea of what's coming in and what I have. And then also, so starting this year, I've been putting, oh, I just opened, I started my investment portfolio like two years ago. It's like a little late for me. It's like, you know, but you just got to start. It's great. It's great. There's, it's never too late to get started. We tell people that all the time. Oh no, it's definitely not. But I definitely wish that I had obviously had done this earlier, but I'm making up for lost time.

You know, my best friend, client, you know, he's like, well, you need to do this. And, you know, just like you need to finally do this. And my partner is teasing me that I went from socks to stocks because I just had all this money like everywhere in the house. And they're kind of like, girl, you need to sit, you need to do this. You're a boss. And this is not, you are not being a boss in this one area in your life. But I'm like, you're right. Okay. So now I, I opened like a Roth IRA and, you know, doing that with my new financial planner, which I have, cause I don't

know what I'm doing. Like they're doing this for me. I don't know. So, but basically I'm putting away a thousand dollars a week, every week into that, you know, investment portfolio and thing in Roth IRA. So that is only a couple of years old. So yeah. And I wish I'd done that earlier. Cause it's like, you don't miss that money. I think when I first sat down with someone, I said, okay, I can put away a thousand dollars a month. I think when I first sat down with someone, I said, okay, I can put away $1,000 a month. And now I'm putting away $1,000 a week. And that's a lot. But it's again, I'm not noticing my life going downhill. And like nothing has changed other than putting away that money. How's it feel to be like in that financial position of like, I used to be making this, I used to be putting this away. Now I'm putting this away.

I used to be making this. I used to be putting this away. Now I'm putting this away. Really good. But also I kind of got too obsessed with like this year, my goal is to hit seven figures. And that's like a huge goal. It's not, it's not impossible, but I'd have to dramatically scale up. I'd have to do about four times what I'm doing now in order to hit that goal for the year. So, I mean, anything could happen, but I don't think I'm going to make it this year. But I'm doing really well. And I think that I got in the beginning of the year, I was getting like too obsessed with it in a way that it wasn't healthy for me. And it wasn't making me happy. And I had to sit down with myself and just calm down and say, it's okay, if you're not making like, a ton of money, you know, it's even if you are compared to other people, but it's really

hard in my industry, because you see people posting like receipts where, you know, people make like $40,000 in a day, like, you know, on their clip store, or something. And, you know, but they're not doing that every single day. But you're seeing that, you know, a lot of people like it's the internet, you can say whatever you want. I don't, you know, so could I, you know, whatever, oh, I made $10,000 today. Okay, great. Um, you know, a lot of people post receipts, a lot of people Photoshop that, you know, it's all these things. So I had to take a step back and just kind of calm down a little bit and say, like, look, okay, you're doing fine. And now what I do is not only do I have my monthly month, you know, daily and monthly goal. But I also had to look

back at basically the last five years of my business and see how much money on average I would make in that month and put that up for myself. So I would kind of see what the trends were and also not feel too badly about myself if I didn't hit a number. But, you know, really just trying to hit that number that's really high every month. to hit that number that's really high every month. So I have like a base number for my budget, a number that I realistically want to hit. And then my reach goal number, which would be like, I think $83,000 a month, every month to hit a million. Well, and you mentioned you're still doing all of this yourself. Is that accurate? Like you're still you have I think your partners help a little bit, right? But like, is this still a one woman show? Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot. More or less.

Yeah, I do have. So I have an assistant who takes care of the studio. Yeah, I have a student who takes care of the studio. I had a client who was doing a lot of this stuff for me with the back end, but they're basically retired now. So I want to hire somebody else. Yeah, I'm looking for a video editor. I just got screwed out of one and they owe me money and I'm going to get it. So yeah, no, I do want to hire somebody else. Yeah, I'm looking for a video editor. I just got screwed out of one and they owe me money and I'm going to get it.

So yeah, no, I do want to hire help. I'm not like, I need to do this all myself. But I just got burned really bad hiring someone. So I need to hire more people and get all this going. But yes, I do hire other people to do certain things for me. And I'm looking to hire more. Yeah, I would say that's that was my biggest like turning point as a business owner from where we like, we were doing fine to doing really well was starting

to invest more and hire people even though it's Yeah, it's super scary to trust somebody else to manage your thing for you. It's very scary. But yeah. Yeah, no, I want someone to manage all the things for me. And it's like, again, it's like certain things happen where it's like, I can't have certain people manage like my only fans now because only fans is requiring me to biometrically sign in every single time. And they lift that. So yeah. That's literally, that's my whole thing. It's my whole thing. And she just got to start. No, start saving, start an investment portfolio, all the things that i'm sure you tell all your friends it's scary but just start it it's okay you know it feels really

good looking at that number now where i see like oh i'm putting this away every month and or every week rather and yeah it feels good like building up that nest egg and i think that in some respect that i don't have like a fight, I don't have a goal other than to like make a million dollars this year. But, you know, I never wanted to buy a house, I wasn't quite sure. And it's like, I live a really nice life. So there wasn't like, I'm going to save for vacation. It's just like, I'm just going to go on vacation, you know, it's like fine. So I think that having that, for me, it works really well to put a certain amount away every week into my investment portfolio. And I put a certain amount away on my credit card every week,

because like my income is, a lot is coming in, but it's not consistently coming in at the same time at the same rate. So it's just sort of, I'm putting away a certain amount every week. It works better for my budgeting and money flow. I'm putting away a certain amount every week, it works better for my budgeting and money flow. Got it. Yeah, that inconsistent income is always rough. It's, it's hard to navigate. If you are a freelancer, if you own your own business, it's, you have to do a lot of projecting and hoping that those projections are correct. Yeah, well, luckily for me, it's pretty consistent on what I know I'm going to make for a month. But again, I don't have a paycheck that drops on the first or 15th of the month once or twice a

month. If I cut it too close over the last weekend, which was Frost Labor Day, it was a holiday. It was the first of the month. So a lot of platforms delayed all their payouts. If I was counting on that money, I would have had a really hard time. Last question. What's your favorite thing about your job? Oh, God, I do everything. I'm sorry, that's a terrible answer. But this job is awesome. It's great. I you know, I, I get to get up every day and look hot and, you know, go travel and make really good money and make people feel really happy. My environmental imprint is pretty small, except for now that I'm getting on plane more. But I get to really connect with people and make them really happy. Like,

every interaction I have with people, it's, it's generally a healing, happy, sexy, fun time. it's generally a healing, happy, sexy, fun time. And that's awesome. You know, like I spent all day in my office, like, you know, making a lot of money and being endlessly complimented. And so my reality is so different from other people's where their business day is like, yeah, well, Jim from accounting shit on me. And you know, like, but I had a bad day and I didn't get promoted by like a man in a hawaiian shirt and i'm like i made lots of money and i'm gonna get my nails done and get sushi and someone called me a goddess and i'm amazing okay bye you know it's like that's my day that's real it's amazing yeah i know okay i have so many other questions for you i'm like i want

to i want to talk to you forever but i know I want to respect your time. I know. Oh, part two always. We'll, we'll take, we'll take user, user submitted questions. Um, thank you so much for being here. Where can people find you? Where are your events? We'll link it down below as well, but where can folks find you? Oh, okay. Wonderful. Thank you. Yes. Um, so please always go to my website since I control that one the most and sign up for my newsletter. And my website is Los Angeles dominatrix.com. You can find all of our events on Los Angeles BDSM events.com. I'm also up on Gumroad. You can follow me on Instagram as the Justine Cross, as well as on Twitter as Justine Plays. as the Justine Cross, as well as on Twitter as Justine Plays. I'm also on TikTok as the Justine Cross again, but maybe I'll get my OG one back. I don't know. But please always just make sure you're following me on my website and signing up for that newsletter at losangelosdominatrix.com and you will hear about all the good stuff. So thank you for having me, Tori. Amazing. Thanks for being here. Thank you again to Justine for joining us.

You can find out more about her and get links to her socials and classes. And I believe she does virtual classes as well, all on our show notes page. If you're enjoying the show, do us a favor. Rate, review, subscribe on your preferred podcasting platform. Maybe share it with some friends. You can tag us at Financial Feminist Podcast on Instagram or at Her First 100K. And if you're not following us there, what you doing? Get over there.

We'd love to see you. It's one of our favorite things. All right. We have more incredible episodes coming your way soon. But in the meantime, we'll catch you later, Financial Feminists. Have a great day. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap.

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