Financial Feminist - 61. Money, Gender Roles, and Dating: Tori's Interview on Man Enough

Episode Date: December 15, 2022

In this special episode of Financial Feminist, we’re sharing a conversation with host Tori Dunlap and the Man Enough Podcast. In it, Tori and the Man, Enough team chat about how gender roles and traditional views of masculinity and femininity are perpetuated in dating culture and the ongoing harm that happens because of it. They also touch on how to have better conversations about money with your partner and in your workplace relationships. If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to check out our friends on the Man Enough Podcast: https://link.chtbl.com/ManEnough To see show notes from the episode, read the transcript, or get to know our guests, make sure to check out our show notes page: https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

happy holidays financial feminists we have a special episode for you today a little different we're actually sharing the audio from my time on the man enough podcast the man enough podcast is hosted by the incredible justin baldoni who's a previous guest on the show. One of my personal idols, Liz Plank, and Jamie Heath, who was just so thoughtful during this episode and gave us a lot of space to have a lot of different conversations. We dive into how gender plays into finances, especially when it comes to romantic relationships. I even talk a bit about my recent dating history and my dating experience. And a lot of the things we ended up wanting to cover in this episode in a beautiful way that conversation just kind of shifted organically into talking about money and how it affects and influences our relationships in our life, as well as the gender discrimination and the

expectations we have for women versus men. And just as a little reminder, we're taking a break for the next few weeks, except we will have a very special episode dropping Tuesday, December 27th, which is our book launch day. Financial Feminist, Overcome the Patriarchy's Bullshit to Master Your Money and Build a Life You Love is my book that's coming out and it'll officially be on sale in stores on that day. You can also pre-order if you haven't already at herfirsthunterk.com book head to your favorite local bookstore on december 27th to grab a copy otherwise i'm so excited to share this episode with you and thanks to the man enough team for uh allowing us to share it let's go ahead and get into it

coming up on the man enough the interlocking perspective of, you know, dictating that boys or men have to be providers becomes a double-edged sword 100%. But when a woman has the audacity to want to pursue wealth, well, we weaponize that altruism that we've ingrained in her since like day one. Why aren't you donating more? Why are you asking for more money? You should just be grateful. Being man enough, what does that mean? It's really manly to mess up, admit you're wrong, and then grow. I couldn't accept that I was evil, so maybe I'm broken.

But those broken things could be corrected. Intimacy between a father and a son is me just wanting to, like, put my head in your lap. I love you, son. You haven't called me a benevolent sexist, but my experience is women are better. Even if it's a positive, it's still not equality. I don't blame men for that. I just blame the system. This is Man Enough.

Hello and welcome to the Man Enough podcast. No, you don't need to tie that up. No, we like it open. I think it looks beautiful. This is my hot girl summer. I'm getting a little slutty. You're a little closer to the mic. Can we say that?

Did you say slutty? Yeah. Slutty just because you're... It's a joke. No, no. But do people say such a thing? Like because you're... Well, because you have a button, right?

Like it's like, oh, you missed a button. It's a way to be like, you're... Is the cancel meter up yet? Do's like oh you missed a button it's a way to be like you're is the cancel meter up yet do we have that yeah we're on our way to getting canceled uh we're counting down the days until it's one of liz's goals this season yeah i want to i want to have no income um so speaking of income this is a special episode and you you came up with the theme which is the original This is a special Special episode Thank you Tori Dunlap

For coming on the show Because you are going to help make Liz Plank A millionaire Great Are you up for the task? That sounds difficult But we got it

In a recession Amazing So we have A guest with us We do That we really want to talk to and learn about. Tell us who she is. Tori Dunlap.

I've been following her for a very long time. You, I mean, I don't know whose feed you're not popping on. You know what I mean? I feel like you're reaching everybody with a very, very unique,

very powerful message about being financially independent and empowered, particularly if you're a woman. And you have all kinds of very incredible ideas about it. You had a goal of saving $100K before the age of 25. You have far exceeded that goal. Yeah. how you got there and talk about how finance affects relationships and dating and feminism and like men

and masculinity. All the things. All the things. That was the weakest high five ever because I didn't want it to pop up. Do it. Pop up the mic. And in the process,

you might help me understand what a 401k does. Great. I kind of know. Yeah, we should talk about all this stuff. This is the perfect time. Because I'm Canadian. In Canada, they kind of like, you have like a safety net. I realize that here you kind of know we should talk about all this stuff because I'm Canadian and Canada they kind of like you have like a safety net I realize

that here you kind of have to make your own safety net and you have a TFSA in Canada that's I know what that means you don't know? what's a TFSA? tell me what it stands for it means TFSA

what does T stand for? the fuck she said. Nope. Fucky. Anyway, Tori, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. We always start with the same question. Should we start with your?

Yes, please. Oh my God. Would you like to turn your phone off? Every time. It's my wife. Jamie always tells us to turn off our phones. This is chaos today. Is this normal?

I've seen clips. Shawn Mendes sat in this chair and it was the calmest thing I've ever fucking seen today. It's utter chaos. That was season one. He was our third guest. Wow. This is season two. That was because we weren't saying anything we really wanted to say.

Yeah. We were keeping a lot of it on the inside. Now it's all on the outside. It's too much. All on the outside. You know what I do? I just, everyone is on Do Not Disturb, but my wife is the one person,

no matter what I'm doing, that can get a hold of me. I love it. That's why you're co-host of a show called Man Enough. And me. It's great. No, definitely not you. Okay, let's bring it back.

What's the question? Ask the question, Jay. When was the last time that you haven't felt enough? Oh. I don't know why. I knew I was going to cry today. I didn't know I was going to cry this soon. To be honest with you, I think it's been a really long time.

Because if there's one thing I've ever known, it's that I'm enough. Wow. There's a million other insecurities I have, but self-worth is never one of them. And I love walking in a therapist's office for the first time and being like, I have a lot of other things to talk about, but worthiness is not going to be an issue.

I'm trying to think of a particular time though. I love that. How do you get that? What's that? How does that happen? I believe I'm deserving of love and opportunity and all of the good things and I think everybody is. And I think a lot of people are really

lovely online and they go like, how are you so confident? And I'm like, confidence is a self-worth issue. If you believe you're self-worthy of opportunity and of love and of belonging and of all those things, you will show up in every room knowing that you're enough. No, I'm sure I've had flickers and doubts and all of those things. But I think, honestly, like this sounds so pompous, but I've done the work on myself to get to the point where I'm like, you know what? If this relationship isn't working out, it's not because I didn't try or not because I'm not enough.

If this opportunity didn't pan out, it's not because I didn't try or not because I'm not enough. If this opportunity didn't pan out, it's not because I'm not good enough. Yeah, I'm sure there's been times recently, but I honestly can't pinpoint one. What's the work that you've done to get there for people who are struggling with this? I think, again, it's like the realization that you are deserving of all of the things

that you believe your favorite person in life is deserving of. I look at my best friend who's the most incredible person and I love her more than anything. And I'm like, you are deserving of every single good thing in this entire world.

Why wouldn't I believe that for myself? Why wouldn't I believe that of everybody in this room? I love that. I love room? I love that. I love it. I love that. Because we often hear like, be your own best friend, but it's like, be your favorite person. Oh, I'm a favorite person to hang out with? I literally went to solo dinner last night, ordered a glass

of wine, tried two different wines, picked one like focaccia. Just, oh, it was great. Sat there, had just a grand old time. And that's my favorite like how do you you're like that jamie what's that like you guys are similar in that way yeah that resonated with me i i appreciate you saying that um i am curious being a woman yeah and making such a wonderful bold statement that uh self-worth is not something you ever struggle with and and it already makes

me nervous even me just saying that. Why? Oh, I can hear the Instagram comments. What are they going to say? Oh, they're going to say, oh, you're conceited. Oh, she's cocky, right? But if a man shows up and is like, yeah, I'm confident and I know my worth, and they're like, oh my God, good for you.

That's such a strong man, right? Isn't that interesting? So that women will attack you then for saying you're confident. I think men as well. And men will, when I say I have self-doubt or I am vulnerable, then it's like, oh, you're not a man. Well, because I think we see somebody standing in their power as a threat to ourselves. show where you know masculinity and and you know redefining that and the struggle with patriarchy affects everybody regardless of identity and internalized misogyny happens all the time regardless you know so i think if you look at somebody existing how you potentially want to

exist but you're not there yet you either have an opportunity to go, wow, this person's going to challenge me to be better. Or you go, oh, I hate this person. I hate what they stand for. I hate that they're doing this because it feels like a mirror to yourself. You're listening to the Mad Enough Podcast. We'll be right back. All right. Welcome back to the Mad Enough Podcast. So tell me what tools you use or maybe why you have this. When you live in a society that has told you, and when I say you as a woman, that you're not as good as men, you're not pay-wise, you're not paid as much as men, your voice doesn't carry the same weight as men, you weren't allowed to vote in the same capacity

men were not too long ago. Your right to choose has been threatened. There are so many things that tell women that you are not enough. Yeah. You are not equal. So how do you maintain that self-worth when so many things are going against that? What a beautiful question. There's a difference between, I think, the way you view yourself and your own internal work versus what society is telling you. Right.

By society standards, Liz and I are worthless. Right. By society standards, you know, and we're white women. So if, you know, if we're doing hierarchy by society. Right. I think it's a really good question because you're exactly right. I think women, people of color, any disabled people, LGBTQ, you're being told constantly by society that you are not enough or that you can't have rights to

your own body or you can't have the right to love who you want to love or you can't have healthcare, right? That's a, I i don't know i don't know how you i guess the answer is you try to separate between you yourself versus the way society views everybody generally i i don't that's i'm gonna think about that question on the way home were your parents yeah i was gonna remind you of your worth that it wasn't defined by someone else's perception of you or what are the, some of the things that maybe have contributed to that? Yeah, I was bullied pretty heavily when I was growing up. And the interesting thing that happened is a lot of my friends in, you know, early grades, third, fourth, fifth started to

shift and hang out with the popular kids because that meant belonging and they changed their personalities in order to fit in. And I even look at like seven, eight year old me and I'm proud of her at where she was, she was very like, I don't care if you don't like me, that this is who I am. And my parents would tell me all the time, they were going, well, you know, you know, they're jealous of you. And when you're jealous of you and when you're 10 you're like no they're not she has everything she has the swoopy bangs and the cool outfits swoopy bangs you remember curtain bangs we're the same age yeah i know exactly what you mean swoopy bangs didn't have swoopy bangs i'm like how can she be jealous of me and then of course i look back now and i'm like regardless of how she actually felt, I was somebody who was so self-assured that that felt, again, that felt like a threat.

So I think my parents were very integral in saying, you know what? It doesn't matter how you fit in. It matters that you're true to yourself. The way you're answering it reminds me of – Toni Morrison was asked that question, and she kind of just goes like, according to who? Right? Like even you're saying society tells you you're not enough. According to who?

Because according to other women and the people I surround myself with, I'm not lesser, right? Well, and society is going to tell everybody some sort of narrative. Sure. It's going to tell men that you can't cry. It's going to tell men that you can't cry. None of us feel like we're enough. Right. So, okay, if we're all not enough to society, then aren't we all enough, weirdly?

Exactly. You know? And I think I was bullied, and it was the best thing that ever happened to me in hindsight. Me too. Because I look back and I'm like, I was so focused on these people don't like me, and I'm being, you know, in many ways, like I was like violently like rejected by, and it was very gendered, was very like the boys.

And now when I look back, I'm like, I didn't like you either. Like, I'm so happy. I'm not, I changed schools. I went to this like school that was in my neighborhood that was much more, a lot less proper, a lot less. My parents were like, what? You want, we're sending you to this great school and you want to go to this one? And it was the best thing that ever happened to me. It was a music theater school. I was such a weirdo. And like, I could be myself. And when I look back, I'm like, thank God. And part of feeling so assured and

being so self-confident is that you're taking the focus off of the other person and you're thinking, what do I think about myself? And it has nothing to do with them. It doesn't. And it's like going on a date, right? And the fear, you walk into a date and you have two perspectives. You either have like, what if they don't like me? Like, what if they think I'm too much? What if they don't like my hair? What if they don't like my outfit? What if they don't like what I say? Or you go, actually, what if I don't like them? Yes. You talked about that stat in, I think in your book, I know you brought it up on the podcast. Well, it's not a stat. It's just basically, it's my own anecdotal observation is that I would be talking to a woman who was on her way to going

on a date and she would be telling me very different things from my friend, Matt, who was going on a date. And she would be same thing where, oh, I'm like, I hope he likes me. I hope I have good things to talk about. I've like, blah, blah, blah. And the guy, Matt, was just like, I hope I like her. Like, I hope it'll be entertaining. And if it's not, then I'm going to leave. I want to asterisk that with,

it's not just like, you know, am I going to like them? But like, are we going to get along? Yeah. And it's not so much about the fear that maybe this person won't vibe or gel with me and more just like, actually, you know, I hope that they get along with me and I get along with them. Like, yeah, that's, that's the hope. Or it's like the path to then finding the person who I do get

along with. I mean, it's like, it's trying to control the outcome when I really think sometimes I go like, I'm so silly. Like, why, why would I try and make it work with someone I don't even know yet? And I wonder kind of, I mean, dating is- Get into it. Let's get into it. Even dating as a very financially stable, and I mean, that's like an understatement for your very high income earning person. And you Google me and you know my net worth.

What is that like when you go on dates? Somebody Googled me in front of me a couple months ago. No. Can I Google you right now? Sure. Go ahead. How do they know your net worth? what is that like when you go on dates? Somebody Googled me in front of me a couple months ago. No. Can I Google you right now? Go ahead. How do they know your net worth? I mean, I'm very...

Oh, because you shared it. I'm open. I mean, all of these sites, right? They're always like, I'm like, you're not accurate at all. But like, I'm open about it. So what's it like dating, ladies, for the two married men here?

What's it like dating today being two very successful powerful women a garbage fire thank you end of question uh a garbage fire garbage fire you're listening to the mad enough podcast we'll be right back all right Welcome back to the Mad Enough Podcast. Are men intimidated by success and power and the fact that you can support yourself financially? Is that something that you encounter or is that kind of gone now? These don't still still around? Yes. Those are not the men I'm interested in. Yes, of course. I would. So I very actually rarely talk to them anymore because they've either not matched with me on the app. Oh, so now we're online dating. By the way, when I say dating, should I just be just assuming that it's online now?

It's both. Some people aren't on the apps, but it's kind of like, to me, online dating and real life dating is kind of merging. Like, I don't feel the need to differentiate it, right? Yeah, and there's so little, unfortunately, in person. And of course, we were talking about before, the person I'm now dating, I met in real life at a bar, which feels so 1980s.

So 80s. I'm like, what is that? I love it. Shoulder pads, too? Yeah. I don't know. So different. It's so exciting, though. But I feel like, yeah, I think most dating. So different. It's so exciting. But I feel like, yeah, I think like most dating is online dating. Well, because both of you weren't on your phones, right?

Like you were just sitting there. And I actually called my friend and I was like, I'm going out. I'm getting the number tonight. You coming with me? And she was like, I'm not drinking. I was like, perfect. You can drive me. Oh, I love that.

But I think, I mean, most dating is a garbage fire and i think it's a lot of um people not knowing what they want should say men not knowing what they want um yeah there's definitely some intimidation i think a lot of men say they want men who are interested in women say that they want a strong independent woman and then they get one and they're like i feel threatened so what happens so let's talk let's can we what is that about why do they feel threatened the majority actually of the relationships that i've been in have ended largely because i have known who i am and what i want and in doing that, my male partner has felt threatened. Not because I threatened him,

but because if you're dating somebody who, you know, knows who they are, knows what they want, and then you don't. I think so too, right? That's one of my favorite things about men who like know what they want. I'm like...

That's so sexy when women know who they are. To me, it's that they want the fantasy of the feminist, empowered woman. But what comes with her is that she's a real human. She's not just this cool feminist

cutout that you get to parade around and say, look how strong of a man I am that I have a feminist, empowered girlfriend. It means that I'm going to be a full human being who will challenge you. And not just, you know, because I'm not as self-confident

as you are. I'm not a millionaire. Yet. We still have at least 30 minutes left of the show. Check your bank account now and check it at the end. T-F-E-M-T is, or whatever in Canada it is. But it's like, it's still kind of, you know, the sort of pixie girl dream, right? Which is this fantasy in a lot of film and television that if you look at any movie that was made before like 2013,

like Aziz Ansari's show, which I think was really good. Yeah. But still like the girl, the main, you know, romantic interest, her entire personality is is just liking him and to be the projection of everything that he desires. And I think that the empowered woman has become the new kind of fantasy. It's kind of cool for men to be dating. And again, it sort of shines on them that they're with that woman. Well, it makes them feel better, I think, about themselves. It makes them feel better, but then they're not ready with us being full human beings in that having your own likes

outside of them it's actually worse for me anyways when i'm with a person like that because then it kind of feels like gaslighting right it kind of feels like wait you're telling me you want me for this but then you're when i could part of it be that there are men that do want a strong, independent, financially stable, all of the things in a woman. Then you start dating one and you realize that you don't, you have your own self-doubt. And now you start feeling small, not because you don't want that woman. That's no, that's literally exactly what I'm saying. Because you now feel small. So I was in a relationship before I got married

to an amazing woman. I've always been super confident and I've always dated people that are very powerful women. I'm attracted to that and that's what I've been exposed to in my life with women. But then there was a time when I felt really, really small. Now I was still attracted to powerful women. But I found myself all of a sudden because I didn't know my way out.

Because my life was blown up. And all of a sudden, I could not keep up. And then now that became intimidating to me. Right. And that's what I was saying before. Even though I still wanted it. But because I was small. Yeah, totally.

So it wasn't me wanting to gaslight or not want the very thing that I wanted. But if men don't feel enough themselves, then how can you then stand tall when you're with a woman that. Right. It's either a challenge and an opportunity, right? Like, oh, this person is challenging me to be better. Cool. Let's dig into that. Or it's I am going to bail. I'm going to flat better. Cool. Let's dig into that. Or it's, I, I am going to bail.

I'm going to flat bail. Right. And you need to be able to communicate, right? I saw Michelle Obama in this really powerful interview where she, she was just, she kind of compares to sports. Like, why would you want like a shit, like your teammates? Why would you want like a shittier teammate? Like, don't you want a teammate that's really good? And I think being able to, I mean, in a great relationship, you're both pulling each other up, right? It's not just like, well, I'm amazing. You have to be amazing too. It's like, well, let's figure this out together.

You know, how can you, right? And Chris Rock says this, right? Like the tambourine example. Do you guys know what I'm talking about? He's like, there's always one person that is playing the tambourine. You both can't be playing the tambourine example. Do you guys know what I'm talking about? He's like, there's always one person that is playing the tambourine. You both can't be playing the tambourine. So there's one partner that's in the front that's, you know, in the front and you're playing the tambourine in the back. And then sometimes, but then you have to change, right? Like there's always a point where

you're the one playing the tambourine. And if it's always the same person playing the tambourine, maybe that'll get, you know, and Esther Burrell talks about this, right? That there's like always kind of the shifting dynamics and it isn't this fixed thing of one person's the alpha, one person's the beta, one person's talk about you and how can I support you in this moment? Right. But, but you have to be able to say that honestly and, and be true and be vulnerable enough in that relationship to be able to say that. And I think, I mean, the, my experience with, with guys, I just went on a date with someone like a couple of weeks ago and I won't, I love when Liz talks about her dating life. Oh my God. That's I, I, there's a couple of goals. A good chunk of my TikTok is like dating nightmares. There's a couple goals for the end of this show. We'll say it this season. Liz, a millionaire.

Yeah, great. And Liz, out of the dumpster fire. And happy and with somebody that sees her and loves her and respects her for the fucking badass that she is. I'm so confused by the fact that. I'll commit to half of that. I'm so confused by the fact that when you're single,

you're single because you're awesome. You're beautiful. But there's nothing wrong with being single. I'm not saying that's wrong. Right? No, no, no, no. I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

Sorry, I wasn't saying that there was anything wrong with being single. But I do feel your pull. You want to find your partner. Yeah, that's what we mean. Based on the fact you want to find your partner, I'm flabbergasted that you don't have that one because i imagine like what the hell how how is it not just a simple like yeah how are they how are they not lining up let's ask a better question not why is liz single but why are men so that's why are men

why are men not showing up what about men are not relating to the incredible woman liz that's why are men trash? Why are men not showing up? What about men are not relating to the incredible woman Liz? That's what I wanted to actually get into next was because if you think about what our collective response to like the trauma that is growing up a boy in the world right now. And I'm getting it. We're not going to compare or rank. I'm just specifically speaking about what it's like to grow up as a boy, which is really all that I can talk about. A straight white boy.

You can talk about being a straight black boy. Very different experiences. But what we know is from age one, we look at our fathers, we look at other boys, and we know that we have to be the providers, that we have to be the protectors and that our worth is tied to how we are able to man up and take care of and protect women from other men, keep them safe, provide for them financially. Right.

And it's the focus isn't even on like being a good man, a good human. It's literally like, be big, be strong if you can, be successful, be the strongest guy in the room, be the hardest worker in the room, take care of them, take care of everybody. That's your value. So it almost seems like when we meet a woman who doesn't need that, when we meet you or we meet you, When we meet a woman who doesn't need that, when we meet you or we meet you, our brains are like, where do I fit? Where do I fit in this situation?

I don't know, where's my worth? What am I supposed to do with you? I could read a text from the person I'm now dating an hour ago that just says that. We're having conversations about it, right? And it's an opportunity to talk about it. It's so important because one of the things I do in my marriage is if something comes up like this, if I'm feeling something, I about it. It's so important because one of the things I do in my marriage is if something comes up like this, if I'm feeling something, I share it.

And it is in the, it coming out of me, me pushing past the embarrassment of like, wow, I'm feeling these things, that I'm able to process it in real time. Now, some stuff I don't and should not put on my spouse or my partner. There are things that I just need to process or process with a therapist or process with a friend like Jamie. There are other things that I can process with her.

The vulnerability of that. Because they have to do with the both of us. So what I hope for any man listening to this right now, because I believe that men deep down want a strong, empowered, badass, powerful woman that knows who she is and knows who she wants. Because that is going to then eventually, in a heterosexual relationship, pass on to your children. Like, if you have a girl, why wouldn't you want that for your daughter? She's going to learn that. I mean, she's going to learn a lot from me, of course, but she's going to also learn that from her mother. So share, talk about the fact that, you know what?

Maybe you didn't have a mom that was like Liz Plank or like Tori Dunlap. Maybe you don't know what to do in that situation. Maybe you've never seen a man support a woman. Maybe you've never thought about being a stay-at-home dad. Maybe you're not used to making less money, but that does not mean that you don't have as much value as another man. That does not mean that you are not valuable or not enough. It just means that you get to recalibrate your relationship with the opposite sex in that

way and what your relationship could look like. And also define your worth from yourself. Yourself. It's not outside. But the fact that you, again, I love being protected and provided for, not just from men that I date, from women that I date, from my friends, from my family, from my coworkers. Like protecting and providing a thing

are such beautiful virtues. I don't even think a lot of us are saying we don't want you to do that. But it's weird that, and this is part of the patriarchy, but it's weird that, and this is part of the patriarchy, but it's weird that men's definition of themselves requires, right, someone else to do something or agree or consent or like, and I think that even when I say like being dating and empowered women means that it's challenging you, it's not even challenging you. I'm just showing you who you are. It's not even challenging you. I'm just showing you who you are. It's just revealing to you who you are. And that's all I'm doing by being in a relationship.

You're a mirror. I'm just a mirror. And are you willing to see yourself and to see all of your states? Because plenty of women I've dated, or women, plenty of men I've dated have not, right? Yes. Many men I've dated have not taken that opportunity. Men are killing themselves because they can't provide for their families. Because they don't know what their place is in the world if they're unable to provide for their children

or for their wife and keep a roof over their head. If they lose their job, and we saw this happening. So male suicide rates are also increasing. You're listening to the Mad Enough podcast. We'll be right back. All right. Welcome back to the Mad Enough podcast. We'll be right back. All right. Welcome back to the Mad Enough podcast. There's no foundation or conversation where we have been told at a young age that it's okay.

We are more than our productivity and our value, which is why, I know I said this on your podcast, is why we have to, in many ways, separate men from the patriarchal structure that is also killing them and also killing women and trans folks and non-binary folks. And I'll offer an interlocking perspective to that, which is to round about talking this conversation and bringing it into more of the financial realm. When we think about the way we raise boys versus girls, yes, 100%, the view on providing is largely a very masculine or a thing that we put on boys or men. But what happens, like perfect example is the toys we give children. We give boys Legos and trucks

and things to build, right? And we tell them that their value is in entrepreneurship or in critical thinking or in problem solving and building for themselves. What do we give girls? Easy bake ovens. Dolls. We give a literal child another child to take care of. So, then, if we think about growing up and navigating your career or your money, boys are expected and conditioned to want money and to pursue wealth. Now, it gets them in trouble because the expectation to provide is so deeply ingrained as well. But then when a woman has the audacity to want to pursue wealth, well, we weaponize that altruism that we've ingrained in her since like day one. Why aren't you donating more? Why are you asking for more money? You should just be grateful.

Yeah. Right? So weirdly, the interlocking perspective of, you know, dictating that boys or men have to be providers becomes a double-edged sword 100%. 100%. But for women then, we're also actually told to be caregivers and to constantly sacrifice ourselves and have our identity be in every single person around us. Mm-hmm. Definitely. Care for another child. Care for people., care for people,

make food, make all of these other things. Don't problem solve and build your own brain. And then, of course, as you grow and you have the audacity to want money as a woman, well, suddenly then,

in order to tax her, we weaponize her altruism. And when you say weaponize her altruism, what do you mean by that? The TikTok comments I get, which is like, why aren't you donating all of your money?

Why are you charging people for your services? If you really loved this, you should just do it for free. And then the interesting response that I have is not, I deserve to get compensated for my expertise. It is, oh, well, I have team members that I have to pay.

I have team members that I have to pay. I have team members that I have to pay. You feel like you have to defend yourself. Right. I have team members I have to pay and this is a company that employs other people and I pay their salaries. Not like that.

Plus, I deserve to get compensated for my value. It's not like men are getting the same questions. No, they're not. They're expected to pursue that. Because men are applauded for the pursuit of wealth. They absolutely worship that. And if a man is photographed on a golf course in a Rolex,

it's like, cool, you must be doing well for yourself. If a woman is in a designer dress, it's like, that's such a waste of money. It's so frivolous. What are you doing? Well, the amount of female politicians who've been told this is how much your suit costs. And I've never seen any male politician have a page six article about wearing a $2,000 Armani suit. And the interesting thing that happens as well

is it's the worst, unfortunately, from women. Because again, if you see somebody in power. So it's women commenting about women. It's both. But women in particular will go, I'm really excited for you, but you're bragging a lot. Don't take up too much space. Exactly. Because the patriarchy has told them

there is one seat at this table. There is one seat at this table for a woman or a person of color or a queer person. There is one seat. And if we all fight each other for that one seat, well, suddenly the patriarchy doesn't have to do anything. And they think they're protecting you because they've been burned by being too braggy, right? Totally. And it's with all of the love in the world. I see that for what it is, which is, God, you've been told to play small. And I'm so fucking sorry. Yeah. And how does it affect female entrepreneurs? I mean,

we've been seeing sort of all of these women. There was like that recent example of the Glossier. Glossier. Glossier. I don't even know how to say it. Glossier. The company with the woman. I don't know anything. Emily Weiss.

Emily. Is it Weissman? Yeah. Basically changing roles, going from CEO to like another position and being like, it's the end of the woman, you know, girl boss. Like, and it's like if a man. The New York Times, that bullshit headline, I was so upset by that. Can you tell us what that was and why it's wrong?

Yeah, it was basically, I wish I remembered the headline, but there's been this reckoning recently just about workplace culture, right? And about what we demand of our leaders and how they show up. And women have taken the brunt of that. And so what we do is we put people on pedestals, right? We put anybody, you know, celebrity, CEO, you know, entrepreneur on pedestals and then we're really excited

when they fall off the very pedestal we put them on. And we're especially excited when we put women on a pedestal and then they fall. So like in the same way that like Steve Jobs is heralded as, you know, this innovative thinker when he screamed at his employees and didn't shower for days, there's this, again, double standard where if you have, you know, all of these stories coming out now about toxic workplaces that women run, that gets all of this press and all of this negative attention. Now, I want to be clear. Toxicity in workplaces has no place, regardless of a gender identity of the CEO or the person running it. But, you know, we look at Elizabeth Holmes,

like perfect example, right? Who I'm obsessed with that story. And I know I'm obsessed with it because it's a woman. And I don't think there would have been as much of a fallout and as big dramatic changes had she not been, at the time, the youngest self-made billionaire in the world. Female. As a woman. Yes. Right.

Yes. And I mean, I have friends who are female entrepreneurs. Female, just entrepreneurs. Thank you. Yep. And my friend, Audrey, started a company called Curious Cardinals, which is like an ed tech company.

And she gets compared to Elizabeth Holmes all the time. And it makes no, it's like, what? You're like, she's not a criminal, but cool. Yeah, but that's the only female entrepreneur that you can sort of think of, right? And they both went to Stanford, which you would just never see like a successful man, right? Who's an entrepreneur being compared to like Martin Shkreli, right? Or like the WeWork CEO, right? Because they went to the same school,

like they would just be no comparison. Well, and I think your original question was like, what sort of narratives, right? Or what sort of things, you know, have affected women? I think the biggest ones, especially when it comes to money, are not just culturally placed small, but financially placed small. So there's so many narratives. And I have a book that's coming out called Financial Feminist where I literally break these down.

Thank you. Hardest thing I've ever done. My God, writing a book. You know, it's insane. So the very first narrative that everybody in this room, I'm sure, has heard is that talking about money is taboo.

Don't talk about money. It's impolite. It's gauche. We shouldn't talk about it. We'll talk about any other topic. We'll talk about sex. We'll talk about politics, religion, death. We'll talk about literally anything else before we'll talk about money.

That is a patriarchal narrative perpetuated to keep you underpaid and overworked. Oh, for sure. Yeah. narrative perpetuated to keep you underpaid and overworked. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Because if you don't talk about money, well, suddenly I don't know that Justin's making 20% more than me doing the same role. And if I don't talk about money, I feel very alone and siloed for the fact that I have student debt. And I don't know that somebody else is also struggling with that. So that's a narrative that's perpetuated regardless of your gender identity. But specifically, what happens is that, again, as boys age, those conversations are more likely to happen.

They're more conditioned, right? The golf course, the boardroom, you know, the bar, the drinks after work, right? You're talking about your stock picks. You're talking about your bonus you're bringing in. We're not having those conversations as women. And it's not because we don't necessarily want to talk about them. It's because we, A, don't know how and B, it's not socially conditioned in us

the same way. Then you have narratives specifically for women. Again, reason you're not rich is because you buy too many lattes. Or you got a manicure once and... Get your hair done. Right. But we know, especially

for women of color, that if you don't show up a certain way in the world and especially in the workplace. Yeah, you're not getting the job. Right. If I show up without makeup to a job interview, I'm not going to get that job.

So the very things we're being shamed for, the very things that are also required of us to navigate society. But they're the reason you can't buy a house. Deprive yourself constantly.

Right? You Google how to grow your wealth. Guess what shows up for men? Investing. Real estate. Guess what shows up for women? Deprive yourself. Minimize as opposed to maximize. Really? Yes. As opposed to, you know, it's like here are five hot stocks for

men. For women, here are five meals you can make under $5. What? Right? Wow. It's 2022 and we're still dealing with this. Right. And there's this also, this amazing quote that you say, you know, a man is not a financial plan. A man is not a financial plan.

And in a way, the fact that we are told to depend on men and that men are told that they should provide for us, it keeps women unsafe. Yes. And I do want to say, I was not the first person to say that by any means. But yeah, I think, again, even in 2022, the vast majority of heteronormative relationships, the woman is handling the day-to-day finances, the budgeting, the coupon clipping, right, the grocery store shopping. Men are handling the investing. Men are handling the wealth building. They're handling the big, the bigger decisions. And then weirdly what happens, my work is largely with women in their twenties and thirties, but we have a ton of people who are 40, 50, 60, who either are separating from their partners or their partners have died. And they're like, I have no idea what my password is to these accounts.

I have no idea what the stock market even is. Or he took everything in the divorce and now I'm left with nothing, even though I was either financially contributing to this household or raising children or caring for early family members. This is still happening. I do want to point out one thing though, because yes, to all of this, and I've seen it firsthand. In fact, this was a conversation I had with my dad, even on our podcast. And,

and as I was doing my research for my book, a lot of it was unpacking the relationship in my family. And I don't believe that it's malicious. Oh, no. That it's men doing this as a way of like, let me keep my partner in the dark. I mean, sometimes it is though. That is financial abuse. I'm sure there's sometimes it is. I mean, it's happened to me.

I will admit it. Like this is something I've never admitted. I moved to this country with a person and it turned out to be an abusive relationship. And I didn't have my own bank account. And I was working a job. Like I was. So it was a control.

It was a control. Because he would just make all these fights about me getting. And I would just kind of go like, okay, it was just easier to give up. So sometimes it is. I'm not saying you're a regular day guy. No, no, no. But I think it's important to say that it's part of domestic. And I'm not meaning to minimize.

But I think that there are situations where, look, abusers are abusers. 99% of domestic violence cases have some sort of financial abuse. I 100% agree that. And all of what I said before, this is not malicious intent. This is society telling us, men, you're good with money. You're good with math. Women, you're not. Well, and this was from my own father. That's what his father did. Right. And it was early 1900s for my grandfather. And then my dad grew up and that was his job. He honestly felt that it was his job

to make my mom more comfortable. And my mom learned from her mom because that was how it was done. And we're talking about generational things that are passed down. And so there's an unlearning that has to happen here. Honestly, on both sides, I think that what you are doing is so damn important for women. And I also think it's important for men to unlearn and to question that part of themselves that thinks that they have to do it. Because my dad,

when I brought it up to my dad, he's like, I never thought about it. He's like, I was just trying to help my family. And he was sincere in that. Now the consequences of it is, you know, my sister then learned from my mom and now she at 30 is reformulating her whole idea around money. And that's a beautiful thing to bear witness to seeing her become her own financially independent woman. But this is how it's passed down. And yes, there's abuse. And yes, there are men

that do it to manipulate and to control. And like, I have a lot to say about those men. But there are so many men who are doing it because they think

it's the right thing. Totally. Yeah, yeah. But the power dynamic it creates is not one where men and women are equally affected. I'm not excusing it. And we also have to remember there's a lot of women and it's also okay to be a woman who wants that

because there are a lot of women that exist who do want to have traditional ideas of marriage and maybe traditionally more feminine ideas of being a housewife and raising children because that's in their DNA. And there's, there's gotta be room for everybody. Yeah. I mean, everyone should have a choice. And right now we're falling into, cause there's no way women are just choosing not to have money. And I will say as well, I am, I very much believe personal finance is personal. That's one of the things I say all the time.

Your choices are about 20%. Your circumstances are 80% when it comes to personal finance. There are a few hard and fast rules I have, though. And one of them is that regardless of your identity and who you're with, you need to have some of your own money. I think that's brilliant. Even if you are merging, let's say, 90% of it, 10% of it needs to be your own money. Even if you are merging let's say 90% of it, 10% of it needs to be your own money.

Can you give us the woman who's listening and honestly, lots of men. Oh, we have girls, gays, and nays at Her First 100K. We have a ton of men who follow us. But when I was on your podcast, I'm still learning.

The first 20 minutes of our interview was Justin very vulnerably being like, how does compound interest work? Like, I'm not really sure. Well, I've heard Tony Robbins talk about it

and I've heard these people talk about it, but I'm like, sometimes the math doesn't make sense to me. Yeah. A lot of people that have a lot to learn

from you. Sure, yeah. And taking control of that is in today's day and age taking power. And so what are steps? What are steps that the average listener can take? What are steps, like we joked about, that Liz can take?

What are things that we can all do? And what are you telling all of your listeners right now that our listeners can now learn from? Sure. First thing, like I was saying before, personal finance is personal. Sure. First thing, like I was saying before, personal finance is personal and the vast majority of your financial situation has nothing to do with your personal choices. So all of the guilt you feel and all of the shame you feel about not knowing this sooner, about not having more money, about being poor or struggling.

about being poor or struggling. Systemic oppression and personal finance are inextricably linked. And anybody out there who is telling you, again, the reason you're not rich is a personal choice, is one, trying to sell you something and be lying to you. Because the vast majority of the way you're going to have to navigate money is directly tied to your gender identity, your race, if you have a disability, if you're queer, all of these things impact your money.

So allowing yourself some grace in navigating all of this and knowing, okay, I can only control about 20% of this. Now, let's talk about that 20%. First thing to do is automate your savings. Set aside an automatic transfer from your checking account to your savings account every single month. Too many people wait to the end of the month to start saving and then they don't have any money. There's no money in the bank account. Is there a percentage of your... This is the personal finances personal. It's up to you. It depends. It depends on where you're at in your financial life. There is no magical percentage. I always say it should be a little sticky, right? You shouldn't be able to be able to like buy every single thing you've ever wanted.

But if you're depriving yourself, that's not going to work. 99% of diets fail because if you tell me I can't have fried chicken, all I want is fried chicken. And the same thing works with spending, If you tell me I can't have fried chicken, all I want is fried chicken. And the same thing works with spending, right? If you tell somebody they can't spend money, they're going to binge spend, right? That just doesn't work. So setting aside that automatic transfer does the hard thing first. We call it in the personal finance community, paying yourself first, right? So good.

And if you are sending Netflix more money than you're setting aside for yourself, I'm not saying cancel Netflix. I'm just saying like if you're giving a multi-billion sending Netflix more money than you're setting aside for yourself, I'm not saying cancel Netflix. I'm just saying, like, if you're giving a multibillion dollar corporation more money than you're giving yourself every month, you are more deserving of that money. I would argue at least as deserving. And it is for future you. One of the questions, you know, that people ask all the time is like, oh, are you a saver or a spender? Now, I could win an Olympic medal in saving money. Right.? But actually that's a bullshit question. We're all spenders. I just might spend the money in 30 years in my retirement, or I might spend it on a vacation next year.

Or maybe if I'm leaving money for children or charity, they're going to spend that money, right? So you are setting aside money for future you to be taken care of in case of an emergency, for your wedding next year, for a kick-ass vacation, to retire early, to start a business. So automate as much as you can. The first priority with that automation should be an emergency fund. There's a lot of financial experts out there who tell you that debt is terrible and you're inherently horrible as a human being if you have debt when you think about that one debt is a natural uh natural unfortunately part of life and it's actually called leverage if you're rich debt becomes a literal different word if you're rich explain that yeah so um i just learned about it not that long right so like if we define debt right you, you take out student loans, you take out a mortgage, you take out a car loan.

Leverage is, oh, I know I can make more money on the stock market by taking out this loan. I have enough. I could buy this house in cash, but I know I'm going to actually make more money on the stock market. So I'm going to take out a mortgage even though I don't need it in order to make more money. Or refinance. Or refinance. Or refinance. And then you have, again, folks like Elon Musk, who are literally like borrowing off

of their company, borrowing shares and leveraging, right? And taking on debt. Right. So it's called something different if you have money. I've never thought about it that way. It's crazy, right? So just the way we talk about this, it's very expensive to be poor. It's very expensive to be poor. It's very expensive to be poor.

But number one priority is your emergency savings. Like your number one priority is having a nest egg to cover yourself if you need it, regardless of how much debt you have. If you have tens of thousands of dollars of debt, hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, you need that emergency fund first. By the way, when you just said

it's so expensive to be poor, I just had this like visceral feeling of remembering. I mean, this is honestly not even 10 years ago. Overdrawing my bank account and all of the different $30 charges. I don't know if it's gone up in 10 years. No, it's about that money. That's about that much. But I remember there was two or three years where I would beg the bank to reverse the charges. Yeah. And I was so confused. Like, wait, how can you be charging me when I've gone under a dollar or two dollars? Or like there was like an auto pay or something and i remember having like a thousand dollars of overages at the end of a year and of course it's you know shame on me for like not paying this close of attention so 30 of americans are either un or

underbanked meaning that they either don't have access to a bank because they live in a rural community or they're not taking the full advantage of banking services. And not very shocking, the vast majority of that 30% are people of color in lower income areas for that exact reason. Because there's either not a bank available in their area and they don't have the money or the time to be able to travel to that bank or because they don't have the money to try to navigate a banking system that continually charges them an annual fee for their bank account or for an overdraft fee.

It's just like getting kicked when you're down is what it felt like. Yeah, totally. And so, I mean, there's so many costs to being poor. It is extremely expensive to be poor. Jamie, you haven't said anything in about 30 minutes.

I know. I keep turning. I'm like... Well, for two reasons. One is it's been interesting to listen to the two of you speak mostly and to just listen and learn. Rather than have a voice in an area that other than to support it. I don't want my silence to be as if I'm not supporting these learnings and how we can be better. That's such a generous thing to do. Thank you. Because I'm a better talker than I

am a listener, but I'm working on that. I love what you're sharing. I want my daughter, who's 32, to know you and to know what you're doing. Thanks. I have a daughter who's six or five. My son is six. She's five. To be raised with this thinking. Thank you. I want to be different so that she can be different. This is what is challenging. So I have a daughter that's 32, a son that's 19. I have a son who's getting mixed messages.

Liz, you said earlier that it's not women's job to make men feel more special and safe. 100% not your job. Now, also, I have a group of men who are lost. So I got to think about how do I help them get out stuck without putting the onus on you to get them unstuck? My son, he has some friends that want to be provided for, that want him to open up the door, him to pay for everything, him to be traditionally what is said to be a man. And then there are other women who want to be, have all their freedom.

Why would you assume you have to pay for me? I can pay for myself. So he comes to me and asks me, how am I supposed to navigate this? He's also trying to find his self-worth and who he is. And I don't think anybody wants to be, I know I don't like to be around, when I'm around people, is. And I don't think anybody wants to be, I know I don't like to be around, when I'm around people, men, women, anybody that I feel small around, I don't feel great. So you've got powerful women, you've got young men who are becoming men who don't know who they are, and how do they show up? How do we have this conversation so that we can get out of the way and embrace what needs to happen, which is women being empowered, women having financial freedom, women being leaders in math and companies and equal pay and all of the stuff that we know has to happen to have balance. But it just doesn't happen overnight.

There has to be a process. And I think that there's oftentimes not space held for the young men who are navigating these mixed messages. Can I tell you a story? I love it. So the guy I've started dating, first date, we've started, you know, talking about what we do. Date goes really well. We're the only ones in the restaurant. It's lovely. I've met this guy at a bar. I'm thinking like, this isn't going to go well. It's going great. Check comes. He knows what I do. He's Googled me before this. He knows. He gets this look on his face and he goes, looks at the check, looks back up at me and he goes, I would really like to pay. But I don't want to offend you.

Can I pay? And I go, yes, you can pay. That's fine. That's lovely. I think it's communication. Sure. I think it's... That's a great point.

I think it's having conversations. Because if we're too scared to talk about all of the rest of the things in the relationship, our sexual compatibility, do we want kids or not? How are we going to communicate? All of these things, money should be part of that conversation. And of course, if you're going to date me or be friends with me, that's a given. Like we're going to talk about money. But I think with, you're exactly right. There's a lot of women who are like, yeah, you're paying for me and you're paying for, you know, our dates and you're paying to get my nails done. And there's other women who are insulted if you open a door.

And I think both of those are valid. I see the part of it where everybody, where men are paying because men have it easier and you probably, men probably have more money. But for me, uniquely, 99% of the men I date, I will out earn them. So for, it was, it was a beautiful, vulnerable moment. And it was actually, he got this look on his face and I go, what's going on? You want to talk to me? And he was like, I want to pay, but I don't want to offend you. Right. And so it was actually, he got this look on his face and I go, what's going on? You want to talk to me? And he was like, I want to pay, but I don't want to offend you. Right. And so it was that beautiful moment of vulnerability for both of us.

It's a great moment. Where he's just, he was like, this is important to me. I like him. I do too. I like him. I do too. And like, it's going to be different. It's going to be different.

I do agree there's mixed messages. And I do agree because people women are are unique and we have our own unique experiences and I think we're multi-dimensional there are times where I'm like yeah I would actually really like a guy to pay for me and open my door for me and buy me flowers I also want that man to see me for the woman I am and for that providing or for that chivalry to be compatible with my independent lifestyle. Like, I want that to be something that supports who I am and supports our relationship rather than the default or what our relationship rather than the,

the default or what our relationship is built on. Agreed. I don't have an answer. And I want my son to be one of those people that would show up that way for you. Yeah. And I also know that my son, maybe my son's a little bit different.

Hopefully I've raised him differently, but maybe many of his friends or traditionally may not be equipped with the tools to show up in the way that he should show up for you. Yeah. To Justin's point earlier, I think there's some of that. I love like concrete ideas of things that people can do and listeners can do. And because I've heard men complain,

I've heard men being very confused, all these mixed messages. And that's a real thing. I think what you tapped into with Nak is a real thing. And I think that adult men are trying to figure it out. So adult men, if you're listening to this, step outside of your comfort zone, be vulnerable with the woman and ask.

Now I know, sure, you've seen Casablanca and all these old movies where you just grab the woman and kiss her and you just do these things. And there is an energy, there's a masculine energy to maybe this idea of what it means to be a man. But I would argue you can still have the masculine energy

and be vulnerable and open and soft and say, I'd love to pay. Is this okay with you? I think that's more masculine than just taking the check, right? That is so hot to me. Literally that moment.

Me too. Like I was, the data was already going well and then that happened and I was like, oh. Yeah, right? But sometimes the answer is

as complex as we make this conversation. Sometimes there are simple answers. And I have never in my life been steered wrong or gone the wrong way when I have been vulnerable and asked a question in my marriage or shared something. And I would just say to default to that, to just ask. It's like consent is very important in other areas. You know, on the first date, what a great thing to talk about. I'm somebody that likes opening doors. Does that make you feel weird? What a great conversation

starter. Because then you're going deep, you're going under the surface. You're explaining what it means to you. You know, it feels good. I want to, you know, and then you'll know right away. And guess what? That might save you a second or third date. If you want to you know and then you'll know right away and guess what that might save you a second or third date if you want to be with a woman who wants you to open the door for her and she's like oh hold on I'm offended well then maybe that's not the person for you and maybe that's a gift

and then you guys can become friends at the end of it it doesn't always have to be about a sexual conquest I feel like in any relationship romantic or otherwise there are handbooks for how I would like to be treated and for how I am going to treat you. Right. And unless you give me a new handbook or you give me a new addendum. Every person is different.

I'm going to treat you how I treat you. So like literally we're having conversations now getting to know each other where I'm like, how can I support you? What do you need? Do you just need to talk or do you want some advice? Like, what do you need? And literally in a half hour before we started recording, like we had this and he was like, actually, I just need some reassurance that I'm on the right path sometimes. And I can give an example.

Like, I went on a date with this guy and I think asking questions is an opportunity to get to know each other more, right? Like, instead of seeing this as a challenge, that's like, I'm confused. I'm not going to, you know, I'm going to pull back. It's like, no, lean in, ask and say what you like. Like I remember being on this date with this guy several years ago. And he was like, I really like making your plate.

Like, I love like when the food comes in, like, but I don't want you to think like, is that okay? Or like, cause again, he'd Googled me too. And I was like oh why do you want to do that and then when he explained it it made me like him more he was like I just really like feeding you and like I just like doing it for you but if you want to do yourself like I told and I was like yeah make my plate right do it right right it's just an opportunity to get closer good to be of service in some way. Yes. And now I understand as opposed to him just doing it. And then maybe I would have been like,

oh, okay. He thinks I can't do it for myself. Yeah. But let's just talk about it. My dad still opens the door for my mom. I think that's really, really sweet. I open doors for everybody, regardless of gender. So you were on my podcast, Financial Feminist, and we talked about, there's this interesting statistic that when they do the census data every year, and we talked about, there's this interesting statistic that when they do the census data every year, men who make less than their women partners will lie and say they make more. And women who make more than their male partners will lie and say they make less. So the guy I've started dating, he voice noted me this morning and was like, hey, I got to the part of the podcast where you're talking about it. I thought it was really interesting. I go, what are your thoughts

and response to it? And he he goes i think it's sad that they both have to lie about how much they make in order to perpetuate what society tells us i used to find it a little intimidating to be with someone who makes more than i do that's of course not saying i don't want to make a living i know it's just been a gradual process he's struggling with like what he wants to do next and so i was like how can i support you sasha reassure you and he goes i'm going to have some tough days. One thing I try to remind myself is that I'm doing what I love. I work some jobs where I hate working there and I'm working on only doing the things I love. So it would really help me if you could remind me from time to time that I'm doing what I love and that it's a process.

And I'm like, I'm happy to do that. And I'm happy to cheer you on. Oh, my God. That made me a little emotional hearing that. Beautiful. What can I do to support you? Do you cry? I'm going to cry. I know. I just think, no, but look, again, I get emotional when I see men step little emotional hearing that. Beautiful. What can I do to survive? Do you cry? I'm going to cry.

I know. I just think, no, but look, again, I get emotional when I see men step outside of their comfort zone and open up and be vulnerable because I know- This started because of you, Justin. Like, I want to acknowledge that. That conversation started because of you and because of your work. I appreciate it.

But what I'm feeling is that I know how hard it is for us men to do that. Yeah. And I don't think we, and the show is called man enough for a reason. We want to make the lives of women and trans folks and queer folks better. We want to make the lives of our, of, of other men and our families better.

But this, at the end of the day, this was a journey that I took because I know how hard it is to be vulnerable because I know what's at stake. And I know that the world sets this up to feel like I'm a traitor to my own gender, that you're going to reject me the second you can peek in and see that I don't have it all together. When I take my armor off, I'm vulnerable to you. I'm vulnerable to attack by other men. And so when I see or hear a man do that, it's a private message, which I rarely get to see from another woman. That makes my heart just swell and sing

because I know how hard it was for him. And I appreciate that. And you appreciate that. And that's what I want men who are listening to understand. This is not just some bogus thing where your vulnerability is going to be used against you with a woman.

Sure, that's happened. Of course it's happened. But it's not going to happen all the time. It is the sexiest, strongest, most brave thing that you could ever do is to show who you are underneath your armor. I just want to echo that and just say it again if you're listening. And I appreciate that you shared that. And your response is amazing, by the way. Well, he's giving me the handbook. You guys are equally incredible. He's giving me the handbook, right? I've asked him for the handbook. And you're asking questions and you're open.

And he's giving it to me. And now I know how to love him best. How can I support you? Such a good question. And the other way we're true, like as a man, like her response is like something that us men can do for the women in our lives. Because you guys-

Vice versa. I feel like you are more conditioned to be vulnerable. And we as men need to start creating those safe spaces where we can say, look, well, how can I help you on this journey? And how can I support you is how you provide and protect for us, right? By asking us what we want. Exactly. Like what a wonderful opportunity. It's not assumed. Exactly. And what person doesn't love to hear that question and be able to tell you exactly what they need? And you know what the end result of all of this is?

More intimacy, better sex, longer lasting relationship, which is at the end of the day what we all want. Final question. What do you think it means? And I already know what the answer is going to be. I have a feeling to be man enough. Can you tell me the answer? Because I'm like, what is the answer be i have a feeling to be man enough can you tell me the answer because i'm like i have a feeling i mean it's vulnerability it's um it's the understanding that if men in any sort of relationship romantic or otherwise

can be teammates and partners and standing alongside you romantic or otherwise, can be teammates and partners and standing alongside you, everything about the world changes. It's the cry for help from women, but also, I know that patriarchy hurts men just as much. And so, if we can all come together and understand what it's like to be vulnerable and what it's like to support each other in this pursuit of that rather than seeing each other as enemies or as a threat to that, something incredibly beautiful happens. to come together and be on the same team towards equality, towards better relationships, towards a better world. Woo! Yeah, that's it.

Well, Tori, what I always say to the guests is that you are enough. But you already know that. So I don't have to. It's really nice to hear though. So thank you. You are more than enough. May we all have the enoughness that you have. Thank you.

The world would heal like that. And thank you for using your enoughness to make other people feel like they're enough. This is what I was put on search to do. It's my favorite thing. Yeah. We can tell. We can tell.

Hey, man. That's it. What a, thank you so much for flying out. Of course. Do we do recurring guests? Because I, she's my,

I want a recurring. I think, I think she should, if I ever can't be here, I think she should replace me. I know. No, no, no. Don't worry about it.

This is what happened with you and I too when you came on. We didn't talk about one question I prepped. I just asked you a lot of questions about all kinds of stuff. So good. And then I also want to say something I've been thinking about

for the last 40 minutes is there was a, we were both getting very passionate, not against each other. And I was about to interrupt you and you had to stop me. And I'm sorry for that. I remember.

I know, I do. I think about, so I just wanted you to know that. I'm bad at interrupting too. And I'm sorry. Well, it was, we're at this point, we're also, we're family now.

But you were having a point and I think I was just getting ahead. So I love you. So with that, uh, thank you so much for listening to the minute of podcast. Where can they find us? Let's play man enough.com slash podcast podcast.

Yeah. Go on podcast.com. It's my podcast. That's how I get to a million. I do a podcast. Man enough.com slash podcast. That's where you can find everything. Awesome.

And, uh, Liz Plank's going to have her own mini series podcast coming out very soon. Which we're going to support. I'm freezing my eggs. We're going to support. She's talking about freezing her eggs. And maybe Jamie Heath will talk more in the next episode. Thank you for listening, Jamie. It's such a pleasure to listen.

I hope you bring back all that wisdom to your son. I will indeed. He's a special boy. We'll see you next time. This is Man Enough. Thank you for listening to the Man Enough podcast, produced by Wayfair Studios and presented by Procter and Gamble, in partnership with Cadence

13 and Odyssey Company. Hosted by Justin Baldoni, Liz Plank, and me, Jamie Heath. If you like what you heard, please follow us and tune in weekly as we undefine masculinity and learn in real time. Justin Baldoni, Jamie Heath, and Tara Malhotra-Feinberg from Wayfair Studios, Mark Pritchard and Anna Saufeld from Procter & Gamble, and Chris Corcoran from Cadence 13 are our executive producers.

Kayla Nicholson is our producer. Ashmi Elizabeth Dang is head of marketing. And Susie Landers O'Connell is our lead editor. Thanks for listening. Thank you to the entire Man Enough team. I flew out to LA for this episode. It was a whole production. We had a full production crew, a set.

I was watching other guests come in and out and being like, I know that person. I've seen them on television. It was very, very cool. And such an honor to get to talk to three people whose work I deeply admire and respect. And we just had the best time. If you enjoyed this, make sure to follow Man Enough

on all of their social media accounts. You can also watch the YouTube version. the entire interview is up on youtube so if you want to see the kind of back and forth see the set you can go to youtube and see this entire interview on on in video form and since this is the last episode before my book comes out please consider grabbing a copy of this labor of love. And I just so appreciate truly your support. I have talked about this before, but I have had a dream since I was seven or eight years old of writing a book. And little did I know it was going to be a finance book. But this has been a project that I've literally worked on for four to five years.

It is the physical manifestation of so much work that myself and my team have put into this movement. You don't write a book expecting to make money, right? Books are sold for about $22. You get 15% of that $22 per sale. And you can do the math on that, right? You're not selling a book in order to make money. You're selling a book because it's an accessible medium that hopefully will impact people. And for me, it's to fulfill a

promise that I made when I was a young kid who couldn't get her nose out of any book, was just voraciously reading constantly. So this book is for you. It is to hopefully impact your life, impact your money, to teach you step by step how to overcome the patriarchal narratives that have been perpetuated, for you to overcome your financial trauma, for you to start paying off debt, learn how to save money, learn how to invest, learn how to advocate for yourself at work. And beyond all of that, learn how to create a financial feminist lifestyle in your everyday choices, how to vote with your dollars, how to enact social change. And so much work went into

this book because I know it has the power to change your life. If you can't afford a $22 copy, either again, ebook, audio book, physical book, there should be copies at your local library as well. I don't want there to be a financial barrier for you getting this information. So please find a copy somewhere, either purchase a copy, go to your local library. We cannot thank you enough for your support of this movement, this podcast. This podcast led to this book. So I'm so excited to see all your takeaways and all of your learnings and for you to finally have it in your hands. That is what I'm most looking forward to is literally physically getting to hold the baby, hold my baby that I've been contributing to and molding and shaping for you all. And I hope it makes an impact and I hope it changes your life.

I'm so proud of this book and I hope you love it as much as I do. Have a lovely holiday season, Financial Feminists, and we'll catch you later. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and administration by Karina Patel,

Olivia Koning, Sharice Wade, Alina Hilzer, Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Valerie Oresko, Jack Koning, Sharice Wade, Alina Hilzer, Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Valerie Oresko, Jack Koning, and Ana Alexandra. Research by Arielle Johnson. Audio engineering by Austin Fields. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton. Photography by Sarah Wolf. And theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests, episode show notes, and our upcoming book, also titled Financial Feminist, visit herfirst100k.com.