Financial Feminist - 63. Why We Need Financial Feminism

Episode Date: January 5, 2023

Tori Dunlap, now a New York Times Bestselling Author, is joined by the host of the UNSTUCKKD podcast and Chief Product Officer of Her First $100K, Kahlil Dumas, to talk about her recently released book, Financial Feminist: Overcome the Patriarchy's Bullsh*t to Master Your Money and Build a Life You Love. In this episode, Tori breaks down the why behind writing the book, what she learned while researching topics like systemic oppression in finance, and what her hopes are for readers.  Learn more about the podcast, our guests, read transcripts, and more on our show notes page: https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes  Get a copy of The New York Times Bestseller, Financial Feminist: Overcome the Patriarchy's Bullsh*t to Master Your Money and Build a Life You Love, out now! www.herfirst100k.com/book See if Tori is coming to a city near you for her book tour! https://herfirst100k.com/hfk-events Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello. A quick word before we start the episode. I am sitting here drinking champagne. We are on our second bottle of champagne because I just got word that I am a New York Times bestselling author. And you can't see me, but I am pouring one out right now. Hold on. We hit the New York Times bestseller list at the number four spot. We're also a bestseller in multiple regions. I am just so honored and so humbled. This has been such a dream and such a goal of mine for so long. And you made it happen. Your support, your sharing your copy on social media, you purchasing a copy from your local bookstore, you impulse buying a copy on Amazon because you're just trying to

figure out how to manage money. All of you have made this happen. And I am just so grateful. And I am just so excited. I'm a fucking New York Times bestseller. It hasn't fully set in yet. We got the call about three hours ago. And since then, I have been drinking champagne and just loving my life and cannot thank you enough. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your support. Thank you for your support of this movement. Thank you for your support of this book. And what can I say? Hell of a start to the year. Thank you. Hi, financial feminists. Welcome back. So excited to see you. Today is a fun, different episode because I am the one being interviewed instead of the interviewer.

If you have been around financial feminist slash her first under K world for any length of time, you probably know that my book, my debut book, was released last week on December 27th. It's called Financial Feminist, Overcome the Patriarchy's Bullshit to Master Your Money and Build a Life You Love. I've talked about this all the time because I think it's super important to be transparent, but how much work went into this book, the blood, sweat, and tears that went into it, and how much I am committed to making this book the best it can be and also making sure that this book has a huge impact. So the hours of

strategy and the work that my team did to market this book, to get it on shelves, to make sure that it was accessible to you all as possible. It has been an incredible journey, but also one of the hardest things I've ever done. What I've talked about less though with writing this book was that it was my first like big dream come true. Before Tori Dunlap, the money educator, multi-millionaire business owner, there was Tori Dunlap, the little girl who wrote stories in notebooks and absolutely loved her time in any bookstore. And little Tori always wanted to be an author, and today she is. So for this episode, I invited Khalil Dumas, who was in the room with me when I whiteboarded Her First 100K way back in late 2018, to interview me and have a conversation

with me about this book. Besides being part of the team here at Her First 100K, Khalil is a business owner, a consultant, and a coach who hosts the Unstucked, spelled U-N-S-T-U-C-K-K-D podcast, a platform that provides a community, resources, and services to anyone who feels stuck in their career, business, or life. We sit down to talk about the process of writing my book, why I did it. Spoiler alert, it was not for the money. What it's about, who it's for, everything book related. So if you're on the fence about reading the book, if I did it. Spoiler alert, it was not for the money. What it's about, who it's for, everything book related. So if you're on the fence about reading the book, if you just want more information, if you've heard me talk about it and you're like, what the fuck is this book? This is the episode for you. Sitting Down with Kalil was truly just so special. It was just like

a fun, incredibly full circle moment. And we really dive into the heart behind Financial Feminist and my dreams and hopes for how it hopefully continues to impact generations to come. Hope you enjoy this episode. It is vulnerable. Of course, I cry. And hopefully will inspire you to chase your dreams, too. So let's go ahead and get into it. Crypto is like the financial system, but different. It doesn't care where you come from, what you look like, your credit score, or your outrageous food delivery habits. Crypto is finance for everyone, everywhere, all the time. Kraken. See what crypto can be.

Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. Kraken's registration details at kraken.com slash legal slash ca dash pru dash disclaimer. Oh my gosh, Tori. I can't believe we're here. Hi. Hi. This is so crazy. It's so fun to get interviewed on your own podcast. I need you to introduce yourself before we really get in. Absolutely. My name is Khalil Dumas. I am the CEO and host of the Unstucked podcast, where we are redefining generational wealth and giving you actionable steps for getting unstuck in your finances, career, business, and life. Funny story, actually, Tori and I

went to the same college but didn't end up meeting until after. So HFK truly brought us together and let us develop a great friendship. Hey, T. Hello. And now you're a CPO of her first 100K, which is absolutely crazy. Literally. And I'm just going to leave that little detail out. That is something that- You're also a team member now. Yeah, literally. Things are moving so fast and I couldn't believe that we're here, not only days off from your book launch, but also the fact that I get to proudly call myself Chief Product Officer of HFK, something that in my work and in my career, I am most proud of. I thought that it would be great to just start this off with being a little bit selfish here

and reading the little excerpt you left me in your book, which is just every time I read it, I get choked up. So just for the audience, so we can all be on the same page of how special this is to Khalil Dumas, who championed HFK in my work from the beginning. And that couldn't be more true. Since day one, I knew that you were going to change the world, had no doubt about it. And your mission is so important. And so here we are days from launch. How are you doing? are days from launch how are you doing i i'm good it feels so surreal we you and i have talked both as co-workers and and team leaders but also as friends of just like it feels like you know i don't know use a sports metaphor i'm at the like five yard line where i'm like i'm i'm right there i'm rounding like third base we We're like so fucking close. And

I'm just trying to lay it all out on the field, right? Like I'm just trying to lay it all out there of doing right by this book and doing right by our team and how much work went into this and also honoring seven year old me had my nose in any book I could get my hands on. I was voraciously reading all the time and who committed that she wanted to be an author someday. So I'm, graciously reading all the time and who committed that she wanted to be an author someday. So I'm, to be honest, very exhausted, but also feeling very, very fulfilled. And I am just so excited for what's to come because this is, yeah, we're recording this about a week before the book is out officially. So yeah, excited to hit that milestone. It's been wonderful just to watch you blossom and just to also see the team and how we've

all come together. And I will circle and highlight like being exhausted. But every time I get that feeling, I just see and read even some of the early reviews and just also just people raving about the fact that there's finally a book that's going to represent everyone in the financial space, not just the small few. So I'm personally a huge fan, still one of the biggest fans, even as CPO. I still feel like I'm looking for your post. I'm constantly, even though now I'm the one helping curate a lot of it. But I just, I can't believe

that we're days off. I remember when you first started writing and I know there are going to be many people listening who are aspiring authors. And like you briefly alluded to, this is something you've wanted to do since you were young. So like, is being an author the biggest dream you have? Like, is that is that pretty high up on the list? Like, I want to really dive into that a little bit. I mean, you again, you of all people know that that is a dream of many. I think that something about writing a book is not just, you know, the seeing your name on a cover walking into Barnes and Noble or Walmart or Target or wherever and seeing your book, which is, I'm starting to taste that right now and it's a fucking thrill.

But it's truly, I've said it before, it is the hardest professional thing I've ever done. It was so difficult. And I kept HFK running. This was before you had come on the team, before Karina, who's our COO, had really come on fully. And I was running a company and also writing this book at the same time in many ways. And so the balance of that, just understanding that you're just looking at a blank page and you're like, okay, I kind of know what I want to say, but I don't know how to say it. And I don't know how to connect that with everything else.

And oh, my God, I got to do research. And it's like a paper back in college, except this is the most important paper of my entire life. And also trying to do everything in my power to make sure this book does stand the test of time while understanding that that is not in my control at all. Making sure that for me as a white woman, I am doing the best job at acknowledging what parts of my story are privilege and what parts of my story are hard work. And understanding that so much of my lived experience is just not going to relate to other people as anybody's lived experience is doing again, more and more research and realizing just how like fucked everything is. And like, there were so many times during the writing of this book that I had to take a break, not because I was exhausted from writing the book, but because I read some bullshit statistic. And I was like, mother, we're still doing this, you know, and it was like, I got to the point, I think probably nine months in where I was like, mother, we're still doing this, you know? And it was like,

I got to the point, I think probably nine months in where I was like, I don't know if I, what's the point in writing a book at all? Like, truly, I had that moment. I was sitting on, I was in LA sitting next to my friend Alexis on a beach. And we had like a two hour conversation where I was just like, like, this is so hard. And also, is this going to help? I don't know. I don't know if this is going to help. And of course, we know our advice helps. Of course, we know because this is why we do this work. And this is why this book is so necessary. And in its form of being as accessible to people as possible. This is literally thousands, if not tens, if not millions of dollars

of advice in a $22 book. And it also is a book where we're controlling the things we can control, and there's still a bunch out there in terms of systemic issues that this book will not solve. But if we can help one person, if we can help five people, I think we're going to help more than that. But if we can help more than that, then that's why we do this. But there were so many moments during the process where I was like, this is so hard. Just like getting my brain to come on board. And I've joked with friends that it was like bribing a toddler of like, I will give you iPad time. I will give you Timothee Chalamet YouTube compilation time if you just write this one paragraph. And then I would write the one paragraph and my brain would

be like, cool, we're done for the day. And I'm like, no, you have to do that 80 more times. And then you have to edit it 80 more times. So honor and privilege of a lifetime, truly, but also so hard. So much work has gone into this. And I hope that people see that. And I hope it's reflected in the book because yeah so much research so much like testing material in workshops and then coaching yeah writing editing editing again editing some more getting the sensitivity reader to look at like so much goes into the book writing process and it's all for that moment you get to hold it in your hands you get to see it on the subway somebody reading it or you're you, you get to hold it in your hands, you get to see it on the subway, somebody reading it, or you get to sign the book in front of somebody. That's why you do it. Absolutely.

That was the longest-winded answer ever. I'm so sorry. No, I love it. And I think it's so important, and we're going to unpack some of it. But I do want to give the audience some context too. When we first started our relationship back in 2016, I was staring down $40,000 in debt, unsure kind of where to go in my financial journey as a black, you know, straight man. There isn't a lot of like advice out there that I really saw until I jumped on a phone call with you. And at the time you were spending so much time coaching women one-on-one, like this

was your mission. And I remember that conversation of the financial game plan, how you just broke down, even just budgeting something that I had just been so intimidated by and just giving me simple steps to do that. And I look back to that and after reading, being able to be in the honors to read the book early, it's just that advice that I know works. And that is something that just brings so much joy and I can't wait to buy 50 copies and give it to the youngins in my life so that they can start early because it's so important. But you mentioned multiple times how hard this was. And I want to invite nine-year-old Tori to sit at the table with us for a little bit. What are you

talking to her? What are you telling her right now? And also, what were some of the conversations you were having in some of those really hard moments when you were writing this book? I knew you would make me cry. So we were talking before we started recording always. So the first time this happened just three days ago, the first time I saw the book in person, I went to the Barnes and Noble right behind my elementary school in Lakewood, Washington. And I walked in there and that was where I would go when I have my gift card from Christmas from my grandma. And that was just like, oh, if I got to go to Barnes & Noble after school, that was like the biggest deal for me. And I walked in and I hadn't been there in a really long time.

Walked in there and I almost, I could almost see her. hmm i could i could almost see child tori running through the shelves and you know going to the you know young adult fiction section and and trying to pick out a book and figuring out oh okay i only have 12 okay that book's too expensive and like i could see her i could see her with you know her her probably leopard hat because i had a huge leopard phase around that time and she's an icon love it it. Always in her school uniform. Cause she was right after school and just like, I can see that. And I walked in and they had copies set aside for me.

Cause I had called before to make sure they had them. And, and I walked up and I, I'm sure we'll post the video, but I just stood there and cried for a while. I'm taking a second so i don't blubber into the mic there was so many emotions of just the realization of how so much of my life had led to that moment yeah and how i think unfortunately very few women get

to actually live out the dreams that they have before society tells them they're too small like that they're not they're not big enough right that they're they're not going to make it happen that they're not going to be able to do that right like society conditions us to play small and conditions us to want less and often demands that. And I have a shit ton of privilege. And again, I want to be always the first person to acknowledge that. I also, of course, worked so hard. And I had this moment where I was just so thankful that I was both able and that I could and did honor the dreams that childhood me had, that child Tori seven, nine-year-old me had. Because I unfortunately know that whether it's circumstances or you've gotten in a bad situation that you can't get out of, the amount of women who are

unfortunately not able to honor their dreams in that way and that's truly why we do our work that's why we do the work that we do is to hope that every single person but especially members of marginalized groups and especially women understand that the demand to play small is forced upon them. It is not ingrained. It cannot and should not be your default state. And instead, in order to be controlled, society, the patriarchy, whatever you want to call it, has demanded you shrink. And the feeling I want for every woman is beautiful expansion, the understanding that you can live the life that you truly want. And I think the way we get there is financial confidence. That's the way we get there.

So yeah, it was also just the culmination of so much, again, hard work, but also we run a digital company. There are very few moments in our day-to-day experience, you and I and this entire team where we get to hold the physical manifestation of hard work, right? You can't hold a TikTok as much as I've tried to. You can't even podcast, right? You can't like hold a podcast episode. And so this was like one of the first times that we have a physical manifestation. And it's not just like the time I spent writing this book, like I said before, right? It's like the building of the business to even get a book deal, the building of this content to know that this is the budgeting method that connects with people. The stories and narratives that I tell that are both my own story as well as like

stories of clients or like your story, right? And so that's the other thing is like all the work that went into even being able to consider that a book might be a possibility. And then I was also there with my best friend who is just been, you know, just my favorite person in the entire world and has been so supportive of me and who really truly like feels my wins like they're hers. And it was so cool to be able to like have that moment with her too. So, yeah, I mean, how does it feel? It feels like amazing and incredible. It's also like inviting child Tori to the table. She's just so, so excited.

She's shocked that this is a finance book. That was not the book. I was going to say, did you have like, when you look back, were you like looking? I wrote drafts of like fiction books. I even yeah, when I was like seven, I had a blue binder. I think it was 10. Maybe I had a blue binder of like I was writing a book on loose leaf paper. Of course, it's 10 year old.

It's terrible. But like I was writing a book. Right. And like I am so proud of her and I know she would be so proud of me. She would also be shocked that this is the topic. She's like, I don't understand any of this and I don't understand why this matters. But she would just be so excited. And it's just, yeah, it was a very bizarre, almost out of body moment in a really cool way. All of these answers I'm realizing are going to be about 15 minutes.

minutes. So no, I love it. No, this is, this is wonderful. And I could, it's, it's just so vivid and real for me because I've seen it play out over years. And so I know how much truth is here. And I love what you said about, you know, women not being able to live out their dreams. And I'll even push that to even people of color. I remember when I wrote my first little blurb in third grade, my teacher, I liked scary movies. And I wrote my first scary movie manuscript. And my teacher said that this is like wildly inappropriate. And I remember how much that kind of put me in a box. And I was like, well, today I think we would have encouraged that creativity.

box. And I was like, well, today I think we would have encouraged that creativity. So when you talk about this book being a means to help women live out their dreams, were there any writers that you looked up to or people who inspired you to be confident to talk through your lived experience and do it unapologetically? This is a great question. I have the versions of my higher self that like speak to me and they are like, I joke, it's like the Oprah gauntlet. It's like Oprah, Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, Brene Brown, Liz Gilbert. I have a couple, you know, personal people in my life that are this. Honestly, stories from community members, that was really what kept me moving when I didn't want to write this book. And when like, it was like, oh my God, I don't want to do this. I'm like, okay,

I know that this information has been helpful because I've seen it. My favorite one, and I've told this story before, and I tell it in the book very briefly. Last Friend Moon, I was with Christine. We were in Italy. This was 2021. And we're actually in line in Florence and we were waiting to see the David. And somebody yelled out my name and it was like, I had known this person for years. And I turn and I have never seen this woman in my life. And she comes running up to me and she's already crying. She's bawling. I'm like, are you okay? What's up? And she was like, hi, I'm sorry, you don't know me. But I have to tell you, I found your advice along with, you know,

other financial media that wasn't, you know, the day for MCs of the world. And she's like, I, I was in a emotionally and financially abusive marriage. I did not have access to my own money. My husband put our money in a bank that was like an hour away. So I could not access it. money in a bank that was like an hour away. So I could not access it. And I was just so lost in it that I didn't know how to get out. And I guess one day she had asked herself, would I want my daughter in this similar relationship? Would I want my daughter in this kind of relationship? And she said no. And she made the really brave decision to leave it all behind, to take her daughter and to leave this relationship and really leave a lot of what she had known. She was in Italy because, as she put it, she was on her eat, pray, love trip because she had started a business, had made $100,000, had done a six-figure year,

and was finally taking herself to Italy. She was on her own. She was thriving. She had rescued herself, rescued her daughter from this abusive situation because she had money, because she had resources. And I often, I think one of the critiques of my work, the easy is like oh you want people to just be like crazy like billionaires i'm like no no no you don't need jeff bezos money and frankly you shouldn't have jeff bezos money it's more just like i want enough money to have choices i want enough money to be in situations i want to be in rather than situations i'm forced to be in and that that was one of the most moving stories that I had heard. And so her name is Danielle. Name is Danielle. Shout out, Danielle. Shout out, Danielle, if you're listening. And

that was a perfect example of everything we're trying to do at Her First 100K, everything we do on this podcast, everything we do with the book Financial Feminist is it's like, how do we use money as a tool to, again, be in situations we want to be in rather than situations we're forced to be in? And then when you are taken care of, how do you use money as a tool to better your relationships, to better your community, to better the world? And there's so many stories. And we share them in the book of previous clients who have now become friends. We've had them on this podcast, Moji, Trisha. of previous clients who have now become friends. We've had them on this podcast, Moji, Trisha.

There are so many people who I know that our work has impacted in the most beautiful way. And the hopes with writing this book is that we impact way more. Here's the other thing that I think, and maybe you have a question about this, but I'll just jump right in. You don't write a book to make money. And I'm all about transparency. So let's walk through this. So this book is going to sell for roughly $22. And on Amazon, it's selling for less. But we get a cut of $22. At the peak, because the royalties scale depending on how many books you sell, at the peak, I will make 15%. We will make as a company 15%. I mean, we can do the math on that. I'm going to pull out a calculator. No one said I was good at math. That is $3.30. You got to pay taxes on that money, right? That money actually doesn't get paid

out for a very long time. And this is assuming that I actually out earn the advance that we got because many, many people when they sign a book deal actually get a portion of that money as basically like the salary to go write the book. And then if you sell enough copies to out earn your advance, then you make more money. You don't write a book to make money. There have been so many other things that her first 100K has done that have taken literally probably half a percent of effort compared to the 100% of effort that this book took that have made us 100 times more money. You don't do that for the money. You do it, for me selfishly, it was to fulfill a dream I've always had. But you do it to hope that this advice touches people that need it the most. Because still, a book is one of the most accessible formats, right?

And even if you can't purchase a book, wherever you get your books, whether that's bookstore, Target, again, Amazon, you could go to a library and borrow it for free, right? Or listen to the audiobook for free. You write a book for that reason you don't write a book to get rich like the books that make you rich it's like jk rowling and like a couple other people and that's it yeah you write a book in the hopes that this will help people like danielle like moji like trisha and make this information, which is so needed and so important, as accessible as possible.

Absolutely. And I really appreciate that. And the accessibility portion has been so great to see, even from being able to, and our initiative to sell this throughout indie bookstores has been really awesome to see. I've learned so much about that process. But I wanted to bring us back for some of the aspiring writers. You mentioned already parts of the book writing process that you maybe didn't expect, or maybe you did expect. What were some of those stark differences? Maybe some things you didn't expect or did expect. I'm curious to hear more about that. Didn't expect it to be this hard.

I'm a good writer. I think that I am very motivated, but wow, this was a whole nother beast because you're working on something that you don't see the, you don't see the fruits of your labor even in close to real time. But even like next week you see them in two years and that's really hard. And you're also so in it where you're like, I don't even know if this is fucking good anymore. Like the amount of times I like messaged my editor harper collins and i'm like rosie is this good like i don't even know anymore i don't know if this is good or not so there's that that i think was was interesting that i did not expect i mean everything every part if like if you open up any book and i will do this now because i know if you open up any book the author or the publisher and

probably together had to make a decision about every part of it. What is the inside cover color? What is printed on the spine of the book? What font is the book in? How is it laid out? What is the design? Again, how does it how does like the book feel? Is it is it more like scholarly or is it more like, you know, you're just having a conversation?

Financial Feminist is definitely more like you're having a conversation. I do, you know, I break to have full on like John Mulaney quote sessions like that. It's like I'm talking to you. Okay, well, cool. That's the physical book. But what about the ebook? How is that slightly different? Okay, you're going to go into the studio and record the audio book, which was one of the

most thrilling parts, I think, of this whole process was like reading these words out loud because i definitely i wrote this book with a certain voice that hopefully you understand right off the bat you like hear my voice in your head so really if you're wondering what format i would actually go audiobook first because i'm reading it exactly as i intended it but like all of the things that go into it you just don't know oh a book cover shoot fun fact that book cover i didn't have an elbow in that photo the the way the photo was cropped i did not have an elbow because i like my hand is up so we had to bring in who's our graphic designer to literally Photoshop an elbow, Photoshop an elbow on that in order to use that photo on the cover.

Wow. Who would have thought that? It's just crazy. We had to shoot the cover twice. The first cover photo shoot was just not the vibe we wanted. We had to go in and shoot it again. What do I wear on the cover? It's just all of these things you don't realize and it's not just like how does the cover look on a shelf but really how does it look in a little tiny jpeg online because that's how

most people buy their books yeah so that's just like the creation of the book in general and then it's like the fact that just because the book comes out does not mean it's done. You got another six months of marketing after that. So it is like a four or five year process, even done quickly. Like it's pretty crazy. So there were so many things I didn't know. And I think especially for aspiring authors, you have to more than anything, you have to really decide if this is what you want to do. Yeah.

Because like a podcast, hypothetically, you could get into it and decide and just not record any episodes. If you get into a book, there was never an option for me of not doing this book ever, even when it was hard. That was never an option. But if you get halfway through this, you are contractually obligated to keep going. You are contractually obligated, assuming you get a book deal, which is a whole other thing is before you even dream of the book. If you want a certain level of success, typically you need to go through traditional mediums. You need to get a book deal. And that's a whole other process. So yeah, there's so many things to think about. And again, anytime I'm in my office looking at a bookshelf, I will look at books and their creation so

differently now and with so much more respect. And I think it's very easy to just realize, oh my gosh, writing a book is so hard. Yes. Also, the entire process of getting that book deal, creating, editing, editing again, deciding all of these decisions about what it's going to look like, what it's going to feel like, how to market the book, how to make sure it's sold, and all of these things that you just have no idea when you first sign. But wow, I've learned so much. And again, what a thrill of my life. I don't want to spend this entire episode complaining. But I do want to be honest and transparent that this is not easy. Yeah, I'm hanging on your every word because i have aspirations here too and i think a lot of listeners are going to as well but i just

one have so much respect for your commitment and delayed gratification you know like you mentioned that something today that's been completely lost and i'll never forget seeing that first video of you getting your physical copy of your book like i could i know i can't articulate it as well as you can but i could see it like wow like it's like it again, nine-year-old Tori like showed up right in that moment. And I was so happy for you. Even when I turned it in, I think that that was really the moment. Like when I turned in the final, final, final, which you think is the final, like you think the final manuscript, but really there was like two months after was the final manuscript. Like, oh my God. I think i sent the whole team that video and i don't

know if you've seen the raw and edited cut it's about five minutes and it's messy it's messy it's just i am i am ugly ugly crying to the point where like i can't breathe because it was just yeah it was the culmination of so much hard work and also just like oh my god oh my god okay it's finally done it's finally done. It's finally done. Now we get to market it. We did do all the fun stuff for me, but like the writing process is done. Yeah, absolutely. Wow. I just, again, so proud of you. And I want to get into the book itself because you're asking your editor, is this even good? A lot of people with the resounding, yes, it's fantastic. I don't pay him to say that. I pay him for other things, but I don't pay him to say that i pay him for other things but i don't pay him for

oh just as all unconditional love baby was there a chapter that wrote itself you talked about you know the process as being difficult but like was there a chapter where you're like oh i got this i'm just you know i i imagine like jim carrey just like at the keyboard like going crazy like what was that moment for you what chapter was that that? Kalil, I love this question. You are going to love this. Okay. Honestly, this book really hard to write, even though I had tested this material because I wanted to do something different than a lot of our other content, which is we get into it a bit with the podcast, but every single chapter, the first half is what I call like the patriarchal bullshit of it all. It's like, what sort of narratives have you been conditioned to believe about this certain thing, about money in general, about debt,

about spending, about investing, about earning money, about budgeting, right? Like, what have you been conditioned to believe about money? And then what can we do to fix that as individuals? How can we pay off debt? How can we budget without wanting to die? How can we spend according to our values? How can we start investing even if it feels scary? So that part was actually really tricky to figure out because the first half is, again, pretty heavy of just like, this sucks. and this is all the research that we did and like trying to like basically blow people's minds with how ingrained this is in all of us and then the second half is like okay what do we do about it which i have been testing forever so

the second parts of our chapter were pretty easy because i'm like i can teach how people how to invest i've been doing that for years i can teach people how to pay off debt it's like the first half of every chapter the thing that came this is going to sound woo-woo as shit but it came like a like creativity came and just sat on my shoulder truly the epilogue was the easiest thing i've ever written in my entire life it is only a page but it is the best page of anything i've ever written and it came before the introduction the introduction was the hardest thing i've ever written i went through 12 drafts of it and i hated every single one i just couldn't do it what made that so difficult how do i acknowledge that for

somebody honest to god living paycheck to paycheck this doesn help. And then still get people to read it because it's still helpful. But I've been doing interviews and people ask me, if you're living paycheck to paycheck, can you give some tips? And I'm like, to be honest with you, no, I can't. The tip is go vote. The tip is support policy change and policymakers that you want to see. There is no budget your way out of systemic oppression like true systemic oppression where you do not have like two nickels to rub together like and then how do i acknowledge that like i know everybody's situations are not going to be like mine however i'm using the privilege with that the responsibility that comes with it to write this book how do I sum up what this book is do I potentially talk about that feminism is for everybody or do we

just assume that people understand finally in 2022 the definition of the word feminist like there were so many things that went into that and if I could just acknowledge how much you how thoughtful you've been I think sometimes because you're wanting to hit every note, you don't stop and see how thoughtful and how loving you are when you approach these things. Because I can tell you, when I started talking to you, I was living paycheck by paycheck. And the biggest thing that inspired me was the fact that you were leading by action. And I think you should give yourself more credit there because I know, and I, based on what you just said, how hard that intro is. But the fact that you just get in the trenches with everyone and you look at everyone's

situation with such love and care i just wanted to stop there because i think that gets glanced over like just hearing you talk in detail you're like i'm giving 15 minute responses it's because you care and that is what came through the strongest in the book i felt like i had a friend that knew me and i do so lucky but i know others others will feel like you had creativity come sit on your shoulder. It's a friend coming and sitting on your shoulder and diffusing one of the hardest things they're ever going to have to understand, which is their finance. That's the hope. And thank you for saying that. And with creativity. So again, I'm struggling with this introduction. I don't know how to phrase it. I don't how to like try to acknowledge privilege to

the best of my ability while also knowing like hey i actually have a lot to say that i think will be helpful for you so hadn't written the introduction and tried to so many times and then the epilogue it was almost like it just it just came to me the epilogue informed the introduction and if you read the book hopefully you understand this easter egg is they start and end with the same quote the book starts and ends with the same quote which is when you have all you need build a longer table not a higher fence and it's this idea of take care of yourself because you cannot take care of others unless you do. And then when you're good, instead of gatekeeping, instead of putting barriers around your wealth or around your abundance, build a table so that you can share in that abundance, right?

And it's not fix the table that already exists. It is build your own table. Yes. Build a longer table, not just find a longer table. The quote is build your own table. Yes. Build a longer table, not just find a longer table. The quote is build a longer table, not a higher fence. And that has been one of my favorite quotes for a very long time. And it came to me like I had forgotten that quote and it came to me as I was writing. I wrote that epilogue in less than five minutes and I'm not going to spoil it, but it is it for me, it sums everything up.

It is some of my best writing. And then I realized I just have to convey to people in the introduction that quote, right? That's what I'm trying to do. I have a beautifully abundant table now. And my goal is to invite you to it so that you can get well fed and well nourished. And then when you're taken care of, you get to build a table for yourself and for everybody else. And that unlocked everything for me. And when you talk about, right, and I think that is key is the fact that you're a pioneer,

which is something that we all know. Your word's not mine. My God, Khalil. Thank you. Jesus Christ. He's like, are raises coming? No, no, no. I don't want to take a moment.

This is from the heart. Everyone listening. No, and I know you. I know it is. It's so funny. But it's so true. And I give flowers and I give them where they're deserved. And they're so deserved here.

I appreciate that. And where I'm heading with this too is this book straddles finance and feminism. And if I Google that or if I try to find a book on that, that's far few and in between. So talk about that. Because I think everything you're talking about, when you're talking about building your own boat and helping others do it, a big piece of this is also, right, how do you also keep in mind and put women first when you do that? Can you talk about the research and just talk about how you were able to kind of sow that throughout the book? This book will live alongside the Dave Ramsey and Susie Orman books under the business section or in the

personal finance section at bookstores. I am well aware of that fact. I think it will and deserves to be next to Untamed by Glennon Doyle, next to We Should All Be Feminists. This is, for me, actually not a financial book at all. It is a how do we stand in our power as women and use money as a tool to do that that's this kind of book i want it to be a feminist rallying cry before before anything else and i've spoken with you about this before and again i talked about like the oprah gauntlet the way i view like oprah if she's like a good manifestation of like the the epitome of like women's self-help right we have yeah like sex and dating right we have like a sex and dating expert or we have like popular sex and dating

podcasts we have parenting we have career we have wellness or health however you want to define that we don't have a money person in that women's development equation. We just don't. We don't have a money person because money is either sticky and taboo and people don't want to talk about it. Or it's like, oh, money is nerdy. Or again, you have to be good at math. None of those things are true. We are not a financial company. Her First 100K is not a financial company. We are a feminist women's focused company that happens to use money as our medium. Because if you want any of the rest of the things, you want a good relationship, you need to have a good relationship with money first.

Do you want to have a kid? You need money. You want to buy a house? You need money. You want to travel? You need money. You want to go to therapy? Unfortunately, in this country, you need money to do that. Like you need money. You want to buy a house? You need money. You want to travel? You need money. You want to go to therapy? Unfortunately, in this country, you need money to do that.

Like, you need money. Why are you going to that job? You need money. And it's a beautiful opportunity to use money as a source of joy and stability and ease and luxury. And I'm not talking like Yves Saint Laurent luxury. I'm just talking like, I can buy a thing without feeling guilty about it. I can take care of myself without feeling guilty about it. And in a society and under capitalism, that is an act of protest for a marginalized group, for a member of a marginalized group to play big, right? To have that ease and that luxury and that stability. Unfortunately, it shouldn't be an act of protest, but it is. And so for me, this book, yes, 100% a business book or a personal finance book, but I would say it's beyond that. This is a necessary book for literally

any person, but especially anybody who identifies as a feminist, specifically women. Because to get the life that you deserve and that you are capable of, you need money. And I'm going to teach you how to get money, how to not only understand it, but how to reckon with what things aren't in your control, what we can do to change and adapt to the things that are in our control. And then again, when we're taken care of and when we're good and when we have the emergency fund and no debt and robust retirement savings and enough money to take a vacation, then we get to help everybody else do the same.

And I want to add, you know, I mentioned again, one of the early readers of the book and my wife read it with me and something she said, which resonated with me too, was you also remove shame. Again, I felt like there was a friend there. Yeah. So can you talk about that strategy? Like, I know that that's something that you kind of do effortlessly just

because of how much you care. You kind of naturally when you're, when people hear you, like they naturally don't feel shamed as the other folks in the space use that as kind of a marketing tactic. Talk about how you do that and why you do it that way. Why do we all feel so much shame and how does this book start to address some of that? So shame is the one human emotion that isn't productive. Every other human emotion, even the ones that are messy or considered negative, right? Anger, fear, even guilt sometimes. Those all can be productive. Shame is not. Shame is not productive at all. It just makes you feel like shit. It doesn't spur you to action, right? It doesn't help you process

anything. It just makes you feel like shit and makes everybody around you feel like shit. It is not helpful. It is not productive. And unfortunately, we live in a society of shame, right? And if you watch any child, right? Like I think of when I go to like any sort of park and there's like music playing, right? There's like a band or a busker and you always have these kids who just start like dancing, right? They just start like bopping around and they're like flailing their arms they have not learned shame and it's such like a beautiful thing because they're just like my body tells me to dance i'm gonna go dance i don't care what you know i don't feel embarrassed i don't feel ashamed of this people are like they have no concept that this is even a thing right because they haven't had it ingrained in them

that they should feel shame. And when it comes to money, I think that is the number one thing I could interview 100 people in the street right now. And if I ask them, what is the one emotion you associate with money? It's going to be shame, guilt, fear, right? And the shitty thing is that this is ingrained in us. We talk about this in the book that we are you know we are told don't talk about money that's taboo and that doesn't help with shame it just perpetuates this shame and then the very people we've turned to to try to understand the shame to try to get better with money the people who have we have trusted with this like very vulnerable thing have been the very people who have made us feel more shame. He who must not be named, right?

Dean Ramsey, right? Like we have turned to finance experts. We have turned to these experts and said, here is my situation. Can you help? And as opposed to being like, wow, this must be really hard. We're going to do what we can. We're going to do it together. Give yourself a lot of grace.

You didn't know this. You didn't, you weren't taught this. It's okay. You got into what kind of debt? You made what kind of decision? It's all on you. It was all of your mistakes. Of course, you're not successful. Of course, you're not successful. And shame doesn't work from a psychology perspective. It's not even like it sucks, but it works. No, it doesn't work either. It makes you feel like shit and it doesn't work. So I think that the most obvious easy thing that unfortunately is a novel thing is to understand that the way

you educate is not by shaming people further, especially when they're already feeling very vulnerable and very scared and very intimidated. Don't make them feel more intimidated. Don't make them feel more ashamed. That doesn't work. And it's also just not sustainable, right? It's like not sustainable. You might be spurred into action for a period of time, but then that shame and guilt has just only gotten bigger and bigger and bigger. So with all of our work at Her First 100K, but specifically with this book, it was so natural. You're right. It's always been natural to me of like, yeah, we're not going to shame people for this. We're not going to make them feel like piece of shit for debt. And we're also going to acknowledge that that shame exists

with these reasons, right? And it should actually bring you a lot of like clarity and comfort knowing that so much of this isn't your fault. Like the amount of times we've gotten feedback, right. Like an Instagram comments or emails of just like, thank you for saying that the system's fucked. Like, thank you for acknowledging people say it,

which shouldn't be a thing, but it is right. Like, thank you for acknowledging that. And sometimes that is just enough to go. Like, thank you for acknowledging. Because not enough people say it. Which shouldn't be a thing, but it is, right? Like, thank you for acknowledging that. And sometimes that is just enough to go like, I see you and I hear you and I may not fully understand what you're going through or understand your experience, but I know this sucks. Like, that sometimes is enough. Like, full stop, you know? And again, it shows in the research. It shows also, which I want to talk to a little bit here in the collaborators. I know you had several collaborators that wrote sections in the book. And so it was so refreshing, not only on the shame piece, but a multitude of other very complex areas around feminism and money and just confidence, gaining your confidence. Can you talk about why you decided to include collaborators in your book?

Not everyone chooses to do that. And maybe some of your favorite parts about including collaborators, if you want to mention any specifically. Yeah. So again, if you already have a copy, you know this, or if you've already started listening. But we have taken... I think... Yeah. Every chapter has at least two or three interviews or experiences from previous clients, from other financial experts, from experts in these spaces. And I did this for a couple of reasons. One, I'm a cisgendered straight white woman. There's been a lot that I've had to deal with. There's also a lot I haven't had to deal with. And I don't want to just listen to me for 300 pages, talk about my personal experience or talk about my expertise. You need to hear from people of color.

You need to hear from queer people. You need to hear from other marginalized groups about how they're managing money. The second is that in that, hopefully you feel less alone, right? Representation matters, but it's true. Like if you see somebody who is, you know, if you're a Black woman reading this, hopefully seeing that, you know, Black women are featured, it's like, okay, maybe I can do it or do part of it, or at least, okay, she did it. So maybe I can take some inspiration in that, or at least, again, feel more comforted because you're represented. The last thing too, is that I don't know everything. There are plenty,

again, Dave Ramsey, but plenty of people who are financial gurus out there who are like, it is my plan or nothing, and I know everything. And they have like a God complex about it. There are plenty of things about personal finance that I am still learning all of the time. And there's plenty of ways that other people explain things that I love. And rather than hopefully not like, quoting them verbatim, and then saying it's mine, like, I take have taken so much inspiration from Ramit Sethi's work. And rather than either commandeering that or just quoting him, I'm like, let's go interview Ramit. Let's go get his advice and guidance because that was so helpful to me.

Or let's interview Moji or Trisha, who were previous clients of mine, and ask about how they navigated issues. Both of them are women of color. How did they navigate this? And what pieces of my... Kieran was another early client who's a woman of color. How did those three learn to navigate and take my advice and take other people's advice? And how did they navigate their trauma and the systemic oppression of it all with building wealth? So there have been so many beautiful connections that I made as I was coaching, as I was learning more about personal finance. So I could bring experts in. But we're doing that for... Yeah, we represented, I think, a lot of marginalized groups in a really beautiful way. The second is that, again, I don't know everything and shouldn't know everything.

And I can't speak to some people's experience. And three, it just offers like a little like breathing room in the book. Because I know that when like I am reading and it's just like a lot all the time, it's just nice to hear from a different voice. It's nice to have like a real life story or somebody's expertise. And yeah, I think that that was something that we did very intentionally from the beginning. I had a conversation with even like my book proposal that I put together that Harper Collins signed off on. They were like, yeah, this is an important part of the book is like seeing other people's experiences.

And yeah, I was like, no gobbed complex here. We can't have that. Yeah. And it stood out so strongly. And I appreciate you giving everyone a voice in this book. And it, again, goes back to your selflessness and just back to you wanting to help in the best way you can and it's my requirement as a white person as a able-bodied cisgender woman white woman it is my responsibility like so i appreciate you giving me a cookie but like that's it's my responsibility to do that absolutely and i

appreciate that two more questions here first off one of my favorites is what's next for you in the writing world i know we're just now launching but you know i had that agent who called me and was like book two and i'm like girl girl give me a second of breathing well can i can i get a workbook like is there a financial feminist too like come on talk to me give me give me a little details if you love financial feminist i mean if if you love financial feminist um and you have purchased it there will be something in the future because unfortunately a lot of people's success as an author hinges on like how well is their first book received either by critics or like in sales like how well does does it do? So if you do want more,

then your support of this book is truly vital. Yeah. I mean, we've talked about potentially doing like a companion workbook or journal, but again, this book has to do well and people also have to want that for it to, to manifest. I have definitely have other book ideas,

which I'm going to keep to myself while I'm exploring them, but I will take a breather because oh my god, we will take a little bit of time off from writing because I got a company to run. We have a company to run. So and a podcast to produce and all of the rest of the things. So yeah, and again, the idea with the book is that somebody hypothetically could pick this book up in 20 years and hopefully find something helpful in it. It's the other reason you write a book, right, is to like, stand the test of time. Now, I don't know if I'll have children, but like my metaphorical grandchildren, right? Or even like, let's talk two generations later, could hypothetically find this book somewhere.

I know my kids are reading this book. So. Hey, I appreciate it. Maybe it's in Goodwill, right? It's like sad and in Goodwill. But like, it's true. Like it, it hopefully is, is still at least partially relevant later. So I also want to bask in that and allow it to... It's not going to be mine anymore. When I release this book, it is not mine. It is the people's book. But it truly is. It is their book at this point. And whatever happens, I have no control over it. If it's hopefully successful, if it hopefully impacts people's lives, I think it control over it. If it's hopefully successful, if it hopefully impacts people's lives, I think it has the power to do that. But we have no control over that once it's

out in the world. So the hope is that it continues to live on even when our HFK isn't a thing, when I'm gone, and people are just hopefully looking for something that can help them navigate this crazy world we live in. Yeah. And so again, we're recording this eight days before launch. And so I want to invite nine-year-old Tori back to the table, but I also want to invite all women listening to this who may be equally excited, but also nervous to start to unpack their finance. What are you telling them? One, give yourself a lot of grace. Like I said before, this is not something we're taught. This is not something many of us are comfortable doing. And just like anything that you're doing for the first time, you will be bad at it. You will. And that's okay. If you were to give me a

set of roller skates and ask me to roller skate around the block, I would fall on my ass at least once. But the longer I roller skate, the more comfortable I'm going to be. Now, I would fall on my ass at least once. But the longer I roller skate, the more comfortable I'm going to be. Now, I may fall on my ass still other times, right? Even when I'm quote unquote good at roller skating. But like, it will be uncomfortable for a while. It's doing anything new, right? It will feel uncomfortable, especially with so much potential trauma and emotional hang-ups and mindset switches and shifts that you have to make which is why we spend the whole first chapter talking about all of those so that's the first thing the second thing is that you can manage your own money you can do

this you don't have to be a finance expert you don't have to be quote-unquote good with math you don't need a finance degree. Again, I'm a theater major. I majored in marketing and theater. This was not part of the plan. This was not it. But I used resources and also, again, had the privilege of a financial education that I'm hoping to pass on to other people to try to navigate this to the best of my ability.

You can manage your own money. And frankly, you know yourself better than anybody else. You know yourself better than me. You know yourself better than any expert. You know yourself better than anybody who could give you advice. Personal finance is personal. I say that and I joke that I say that in the book so many times. But truly, you can manage your own money because you know yourself better than anybody else. And third, getting your financial shit together is your best form of protest. In a society and in a system that actively gatekeeps this information, that actively bars you from building wealth because it wants to keep you

controllable. It wants to keep you playing small. Having your own money, having financial confidence, small, having your own money, having financial confidence, even if it's just a small amount right now, a little tiny teaspoon, that is an act of protest. Living a life where you consider money to be a source of joy and ease and hope and optimism and abundance rather than scarcity is a form of protest. I absolutely love that. Well, Financial Feminist is available now. Tori, this was an absolute honor to interview you and to talk about your book. And I can't wait for the world to see it. And this was saying, I love you. I love you too. Thank you. And I will also do a shameless plug. If you are going to purchase the book, which I so do appreciate, try to purchase from a local bookstore for two reasons. One you are going to purchase the book, which I so do appreciate, try to purchase

from a local bookstore for two reasons. One, right thing to do. Indie bookstores need your money. The second thing, fun fact, is that this is the things you learn as an author, is that bestseller lists like the New York Times are actually more likely to count sales from independent bookstores than from an Amazon. So purchase the book wherever you can. But if you can, do support your local independent bookstores. And if the book is not in your budget right now, go to your local library. We want this as accessible for you as possible. So if you're like, this is just not in my budget. I can't do this right now. I don't want you to not be able to participate. That's not what financial feminism is about.

So go to your local library. I'm just so thankful to anybody who cracks this book open. And if you are a reader, please be an active reader of this material as well. Don't just be like, cool, that was fun, and then never engage with it again. I wrote this book to hopefully change your life. And this advice is hopefully so needed, but also only works if you apply it. So truly, thank you, Khalil. And thank you, everybody, for your support. I've been saying that so much for, I mean, years, but this is so humbling. And it allows me to accomplish, personally, a dream I have had for my entire life, but also allows us to do really incredible work.

So if you have purchased the book, if you have read it, if you have tagged us on social media, if you've given us a Goodreads review, we cannot thank you enough. And I just hope you enjoy it. I just hope you have fun reading it. A huge, huge thank you to Khalil Dumas for joining me for this episode today and helping me share the story of this book. I'm so grateful to have this book in stores, in your hands, in your ears. It is the thrill of a lifetime to see notifications come through when you tag me with your copy, when you tag the highlighted portions, when you show me what's really connecting with you. And I am just truly so grateful. Thank you for listening, Financial Feminists. We'll be back with our normal episodes on Thursdays. And we've got some incredible

episodes coming your way in 2023. A couple of things to expect. We're talking about finding your passion. We're talking about finances after divorce, cults, how to manage money in your 40s, managing inconsistent income, and so much more. Buckle up. 2023 is going to be a hell of a year. Thank you for being here, Financial Feminists, and we'll catch you soon. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Olivia Koning,

Sharice Wade, Alina Hilzer, Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Valerie Oresko, Jack Koning, and Ana Alexandra. Research by Arielle Johnson.

Audio engineering by Austin Fields. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton. Photography by Sarah Wolf. And theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests, episode show notes, and our upcoming book, also titled Financial Feminist, visit herfirst100k.com.