Financial Feminist - 65. How ADHD Affects Finances with Dr. Sasha Hamdani

Episode Date: January 17, 2023

Millions of Americans have ADHD. But, sadly, women specifically have struggled in silence, unaware of their diagnosis until later in life. This lack of awareness and education around ADHD bleeds into every segment of life, especially finances. We’re joined by Dr. Sasha Hamdani (also known as @ThePsychDoctorMD on TikTok and Instagram) to talk about her own journey as a woman with ADHD who also treats patients with ADHD. Dr. Hamdani tackles everything from the why behind certain behaviors with money to the true cost (to the tune of billions) of ADHD in the United States. Learn more about our guests, access the show notes and transcripts, and so much more at www.financialfeministpodcast.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back, financial feminists. I hope January has been treating you well, and you're hopefully having a not-too-intense start to the year. I think we all feel this need to be everything and do all the things come January time. And you know what? This year, not about it. I'm not even setting resolutions this year. I'm just like, I am here to rest. I'm here to have a good time. I'm here to ease off the gas a little bit, mainly because we released a book. So if you haven't purchased a copy of Financial Feminist, please feel free to do so. We also have a bunch of copies at local libraries, but we kicked off this year with the release of Financial Feminist. It sold out in many,

many bookstores. I had y'all DMing me telling me, I tried to find a copy at three different stores and it was sold out, which so humbled by that. Thank you. I am so excited for this week's topic. We have long been asked to do an episode on managing money if you are neurodivergent, if you have ADHD, and who better to talk to than a psychiatrist who works with patients who have ADHD and who actually has ADHD. You might know Dr. Hamdani from her viral Instagram account at the psych doctor MD.

She's a board certified psychiatrist and an ADHD clinical specialist. In high school, she founded World Harmony Online, a nonprofit organization serving to create global access to healthcare, education, and technology. Her passion for advancing accessible healthcare led her to medical school and eventually through psychiatry residency. With the psychdoctormd on Instagram and TikTok, she breaks down stigmas and provides evidence-based information about ADHD from the unique perspective of someone who has been both a patient and a provider. Dr. Hamdani joined me to talk about the nuances of ADHD,

wide effects the way someone might manage their finances, the financial effects ADHD has on our economy, and so much more. It is an incredible discussion with questions curated by members of our HFK team who also have ADHD. Whether you have ADHD or know someone who does, this episode is an incredible resource and will hopefully help you feel a little better understood. So let's go ahead and get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors. Oh, you've got like the gallon jug of water. That's smart. I'm not messing around, clearly. I went to Dick's Sporting Goods with my boyfriend the other day, and I saw those like huge not fill it back up so like if I have it all filled I'm like okay I can deal with this I'm not gonna get up yeah I have a tiny little one

because that way it encourages me to get up and go somewhere like when I it empties I'm like okay I have to stand up now and like walk to the sink and go fill it up. Like I could never relate to that. I need to stay in my seat. Otherwise, I'm like running out of my seat. Like I'm never in the place I should be ever, ever. Do you have ADHD? Oh my God.

Can you not tell? I figured and I think from our, when I go to my doc, which is the perfect transition, I don't. I am pretty good at focusing. I don't have ADHD or ADD. And so for me, it's like, okay, I have to get up. I have to go take a break and then I have to come back. So. Oh my God. What's that like? I like it. Yeah. I almost started the Michael Scott bit where he's like, how is it being single? I like it. I wake up with a sense of possibility. And every day I get a little more desperate.

Yeah. Do you watch The Office? It's like my favorite. I love The Office. I love The Office. I was having a really hard time figuring out what office character I was. And I think I've landed on a Pam combo, but I don't know who it's a combo with. Actually, they were talking. So they host a podcast called Office Ladies.

And they were talking yesterday about somebody who wrote in to them. And they said on the episode that this person was a Pam Oscar combo and I feel like that's probably the closest to me with a little bit of like Phyllis thrown in because I like Phyllis has those great lines where she's like what is it that men like about me and then she's like probably my jugs and then it cuts like you just don't expect it from phyllis like she she just throws these one-liners and like i aspire to that level i mean her and dwight their interaction just like phyllis and dwight yeah phyllis and dwight i mean that might be one of my favorite like just like her utter frustration You left me in the bad part of town. I had to walk. Yeah. And you burned 500 calories.

Yeah. What are you, a monk? No, I am a Sith Lord. Yes. Yes. Oh, my God. Literally, that's like a show, especially during the pandemic. I've seen season three four and mostly five probably 25 times i listen to them when i'm showering because it's like weirdly comforting i just

don't even need to watch it anymore i just hear it no no just and like as you're falling asleep it's my favorite thing me too yeah oh my gosh i love it okay i'm so excited to chat with you. Yeah. When did you decide to zero in on ADHD as your specialty? Was it after your own diagnosis? And then my team has asked me to ask you about the coup in your fourth grade classroom. So talk to me about all of that. Tell us your story. Tell us what brought you to this work. Okay. So I guess chronologically would be the way to go. So fourth grade started a coup in my class. Like I was just very, I mean, I presented kind of like what you think of a hyper little boy presenting.

Like I was loud. I was in everyone's face. I was just like as textbook as you can get. And then it never really amounted to anything, but then yes, I got all the kids to stand up on their desk and start chanting at like the substitute teacher. And it was just, it was a full on coup. So the substitute teacher told my regular teacher, told my parents and they were like, do something. And so like, I got shuffled along the system pretty quickly because my mom's a pediatrician got me in to see one of our partners and they were like, yes, like we all know. How did you not know? So I was diagnosed, but everybody else knew except for me because my parents were still, you know, I was sensitive as a kid and ADHD wasn't

really a thing. And so they didn't tell me, they told me I was taking a vitamin. They were like, here, this is going to help you focus, which technically is true. But like, I would have appreciated a little bit more context. And so I cruised along on this vitamin and I did awesome, or more awesome than what I was doing. And like school became a lot easier, I really started to enjoy myself. And then I went, I finished high school. And like when I was in high school, I was trying to research ways to get into medical school. So I found this way that you could go into medical school after high school. So I applied to this program, got in that way.

So I started medical school when I was 18 and sucked. It's like I had a stroke. So I was 18. I obviously stopped taking my vitamin and like just like my world. I really did think I had a stroke. I was just like, I don't understand what has happened here. So my parents were like, are you taking your vitamin? And I was like, no, like, I don't even know how to eat or sleep or do anything anymore. And that's when they told me about ADHD. And so I was doing I was literally doing so badly in school that I was like, I don't

think I could do this. I appreciate how they handled this. So they were like, don't even focus on school because that's not your priority. Your priority is to understand your brain. So I just like went home and school was in Kansas City. My parents lived in California. I flew home to California and I just like learned everything I could about ADHD and like how my brain worked and how it was different.

And, and then that, I think that kept me going for a while. learned everything I could about ADHD and like how my brain worked and how it was different and and then that I think that kept me going for a while and and then I tried different medications different therapies and I don't know got through medical school got into psychiatry residency and I think because I struggled with it so much that's what made me want to and like I understood my patients with ADHD it just made me want to dial down on that a little bit further. One of the questions I have is someone who isn't neurodivergent. Like I asked you before, like I knew it was either ADD or ADHD. And I was wondering, you know, what you specifically had, what are the differences? Like, what is the difference between ADD and ADHD? And

how does it manifest differently? There's no difference. Really? Yeah. ADD and ADHD. between ADD and ADHD and how does it manifest differently? There's no difference. It's a really, yeah. ADD and ADHD. So ADD is an outdated term. All of it is ADHD right now. Yeah. All of it is ADHD, but ADHD is broken into three different types. So right now there's ADHD as a blanket term, but there's inattentive type, there's hyperactive type and there's combined type. So ADD, the term that you were hearing about before is most closely related to ADHD inattentive type, there's hyperactive type, and there's combined type. So ADD, the term that you were hearing about before, is most closely related to ADHD inattentive type. Learn something new every day. Okay, walk me through those three types. Like what is, again, what is the difference? How do they manifest differently? What does that look like? Yeah, so ADHD inattentive type, that is like

the prototypical patient that you see that's like the daydreamy kind of space cadet, right? So difficulty paying attention. Yeah, difficulty paying attention to details makes careless mistakes, difficulty staying organized, forgetful of daily activities like, did I brush my teeth this morning, you know, just the typical signs of inattentiveness, those are in the inattentive type. In comparison, hyperactive type of ADHD are more like the physical and the impulsive signs. So like physically can't stay in their seat, just very fidgety, difficulty with being hyper talkative or interrupting on with others. Difficulty, like physically keeping their hands to themselves or playing quietly or talking quietly. Those are all hyperactive signs. And then you get this combined type, which is a combination of the two, which is what I am, if you can't tell. Got it. How is this different than OCD? Yeah. So OCD, like if you had to break, there's a lot of differences based. I mean, just like that's, I could talk for 3000 years about that, but, but like at its base, OCD is on that anxiety spectrum. So it's a type of anxiety where you're having a

combination of obsessions and you're having compulsion. So obsessions being more the mental component of it, the thought processes behind it, and the compulsions more the ritualistic component. ADHD isn't as much part of the mood spectrum, although there is a lot of mood stuff going into it. It's more about, you know, how you regulate thoughts and organization of thoughts and focus and attention and all of that spectrum. And so with OCD, you can get a lot of inattentiveness because you're so preoccupied in your own thoughts and your rituals and things like that. So it's hard to focus on things. You can also go on the flip side of things. And with OCD, you might get hyper organized, hyper meticulous, hyper, like focused on order and things like that. So there are a lot of differences based on that. But at the, at the base of it,

it's your, it's anxiety disorder versus like attention disorder. It's interesting because with a lot of psychiatric phenomena there, and this is why self-diagnosis can be so weird, because there's so much overlap. There's so much overlap and there's so many gray areas. And even as a psychiatric practitioner, like half the time I'm like, am I hungry? Am I sad? I don't know. Like it's hard to navigate your own internal environment. So it's hard to kind of figure out exactly where you fall on that diagnostic criteria,

which is why having a clinician can help you do that because there is a lot of crossover. Well, and I know both from having discussions with friends and from research that we did for this episode that especially women find diagnoses so late in life. Like that's a more common thing. And I have a friend and colleague who got diagnosed with autism just a couple years ago, and she's in her early 30s. And so what are some of the reasons for this delay in a diagnosis? So what are some of the reasons for this delay in a diagnosis?

So I could tell you ADHD and autism all just kind of mush together. Honestly, like when, Tori, how old are you? Can I say that on a podcast? Am I allowed to do that? You're allowed to do that. I'm sorry. I was taking a sip of smoothie and I was muted. No, I'm 28.

So on the precipice. Yeah. So yeah, I am am not 28 i'm older than that but again we just got off with another guest who like impeccable skin i'm like draft the skincare routine please because i oh okay well that's just weird lighting up directly under no you look great stop you look great that Stop. You look great. That's a compliment. You look great. Thank you. Diagnoses. Yeah.

So in turn, like it just wasn't really talked about, right? For a long time when, when we were kids, it wasn't a big, it wasn't a big diagnostic push. And further than that, specifically for ADHD, the prototype of what you were thinking about with ADHD is this hyper little boy, like this boy that can't keep his hands to himself, that's all over the place that like, needs to be regulated. It wasn't like the daydreaming girl was not even on anybody's radar. And so what happened was this entire generation of females kind of got skipped over because all they were doing, like they weren't being disruptive in class and weren't bothering anybody except themselves. And then what happened is that it got it, they progressed and they stated by and they weren't

doing as well as they could, but it was fine. And then they'd get through like their developmental years, puberty would hit them kind of hard because hormonal changes would happen and, and, you know, symptoms would get worse and everyone would be like, oh, it's hormones. Like it's, it's not ADHD. It's not anything going on. You're just hormonal, which is like, not what you want to hear as a female. And then they get into these relationships or string of relationships and things get weird and they're dysregulated during that time. And then finally they end up in a situation where they might have kids and then they have an ADHD kid and they're like, oh, okay,

that's what I have. That's, I gave it to my kid and this, not gave it to my kid, but you know, we're just similar. Our brains are similar. And so they're finding it out because it's being picked up now. Well, and I know too, for other, you know, other medical conditions that we're either gaslighted in the doctor's office about our pain or about our suffering, or we just like think that this is the way it has to be or the way it is. We think it's normal until, yeah, we have a child and realize it's not, or somebody shares their experience and we realize it's not or somebody shares their experience and we realize it's not. And so I think that's one thing that I've found from research is like, again, specifically with bodily medical diagnoses, we see that women are just gaslighted about their own pain. And I imagine it's very similar for an ADHD or an autism diagnosis.

Oh, yeah. And I actually didn't really understand that or conceptualize that fully until I got onto social media. So I got, so, you know, cause you, you're a doctor, you go to school to be a doctor and then you come out and like right off the bat from psychiatry, it's never like I was hurting for patients. Like psychiatry patients, there was such a need for it right off the bat. So my schedule was full pretty quickly. So I in my brain, I'm assuming that all of the people that needed to be seen are being seen, because my schedule is full. So I'm that's what I'm assuming, but I didn't recognize. No, there's like this huge subsect of people that either don't have

access to care or had access to care and they got shut down at their doctor's office. This isn't real. You have mom brain. Everybody has this. It's all kind of these platitudes that you're hearing that are just not applicable for this day and age. Right. The question we get most frequently that it's one of the only questions I think from a personal finance standpoint that I feel actually unable to answer because I'm not an expert. How does ADHD or these certain ways of thinking or the certain ways of thinking, or the certain ways of being like, how do they affect our financial lives? How do they affect the way we manage money? Oh, my God. I mean, this is another thing I could talk for 3000 years about not great, here. Okay, let's do this longest podcast episode ever. So not only from a clinical

practitioner standpoint, but from personal experience, I feel like the financial component is truly what has been one of the most difficult things for me to maneuver and to encapsulate. And so first, let's talk about where the deficits are in terms of ADHD. So ADHD, you're dealing with inattentiveness. So it's hard to pay attention to a lot of data coming into your brain. So with finances, they tend to be complicated and meticulous. And like, there's just a lot of moving parts. The other thing that happens with ADHD is difficulty with executive functioning. And executive functioning refers to goal-oriented activities. So saying like, I have to budget for these things, or I have to plan ahead so I can execute these financial

milestones. That's hard, right? Looking in the future and doing those things, if you can't plan and execute a plan, and if plans are overwhelming, then finances can really readily become super overwhelming. The other thing with ADHD that I personally have found difficult is impulsivity. And I think that a lot of people don't truly recognize this in the true clinical sense. Because say you like this impulsive thing for me, it's like, I've never met a shoe that I did not buy immediately. Like, even if I'm like, this looks like garbage on me, I'm still going to buy it. Like I have, it's like, I have no self-control. And so I recognize that I have the, this difficulty with impulsive purchases and things like that.

And a lot of people will look at that, like, just don't do that. Like, okay, well, that's not like impulsivity, quite literally in the ADHD brain, it's a problem in that signaling and regulation pathway. Usually, for people, neurotypical brains, what's happening is that when you have a thought, there are numerous regulation checkpoints that is like, should I do this? Okay, if I do this, would this happen? If I do this, would this happen? Okay, I probably shouldn't buy that. It is like, that's those steps don't happen. And so you're getting into this, this complicated shame and guilt cycle with it, you have this this very neurochemical thing that that's expressing itself financially and now you're having to dig yourself out of the hole

but you don't have adequate tools so if i'm listening to this and i have adhd how do you navigate money or what are some tools or tricks or at least some some sort of guidance that we can give for people who are trying to save money or trying to get out of debt, but potentially battling their ADHD to do that. Can I tell you one, and it's going to sound like I'm faking this or saying this to make you feel better, but it's not. I truly believe that people get data and they absorb information best in a way that feels comfortable for them. So the best way to kind of help yourself is to educate yourself, to educate yourself and find like, find out what do these finances mean? What does the savings account mean? What does a checking account mean? What does a checking

account mean? What did these more intricate Roth IRA and all of these other things? What are those things? How do I educate myself and finding it in a way that's palatable and interesting and digestible? And so your podcast and your book are that that I mean, those are very easy. I've referred your new book to my patients. You're welcome. Because I'm like, you just need a way to read this where you're not feeling like you're being lectured by an old white guy, right? You want this in a way that doesn't feel like it's being shoved in your face and just in an interesting and palatable way to get that information. And then once you have that, that basic baseline, if you have an understanding of how your brain is different, like for example, for me, what was most crucial for me in this journey is when I got into residency. So I got my ass kicked all through med school, just like,

it was horrible. And then I got into psychiatry residency. And it's like my whole journey changed because I was one, I was surrounded by psychiatrists and therapists, which I would recommend to anybody. But two, I like that was the first time where I was felt like I wasn't doing something wrong, but like that my brain was just different. And I needed to learn how to adjust for that rather than try to make myself seem like something else and pretend to be something else. And during that time, you know, one of the things that, you know, I would shop because it made me feel better in that moment. Like, shop because it made me feel better in that moment. Like, like it was a coping mechanism.

Totally. Like I had a bad day. Like I didn't do well on this exam. I didn't do. And so like buy something that's going to give you that dopamine rush and make you feel better. And so when I got into residency, you know, my attendings noticed this about me and like, that's weird. I know we don't pay you enough to make these purchases you're making. Weird. And so, you know, it was brought up and, and why is this impulsivity happening? Why is this? So when, when my knowledge of actual basic financial stuff was coupled with my knowledge of why my brain was different, I was actually able to make sustainable changes. First of all, thank you for saying that because I hope that our content's helpful. I think one of the, and you know this now creating on TikTok,

of course, I think there is this sort of perception typically by a lot of older people that like, oh, TikTok's like a fad. And people have literally told me like, oh, you're creating financial advice on TikTok. Like that's not trustworthy. And I'm like, no, I'm going on TikTok because it's accessible and it's where people are. So if I need to go on TikTok, that's where I'm meeting people. I'm meeting people where they are in order to provide this information. And so I think that's really interesting you said that. And in addition, like the number one thing I talk about when it comes to money is like how entrenched we end up being in like the shame spiral of it all of like, we feel so bad, we make ourselves feel badly, other experts make us feel badly for our financial choices. And like, shame is not helpful. Like,

it's not a helpful human emotion. I think, and again, you're the therapist, you could tell me better than me. But I would argue it's like the only emotion that is not helpful. Like, it just doesn't help us at all. It just makes us feel like shit. And so I think that that's the other part too, that you touched on that I think is really, really important is that anybody, regardless of whether you're neurodivergent or not, shame is not helpful for you. But then specifically, like if you're feeling ashamed of your neurodivergency and then plus feeling ashamed of your money, like that's not going to help. And so for you, it's like coming to terms with, okay, my brain works differently. It's not wrong. It's not bad. It's not shameful.

It just works different. Yeah. And I think that's an important, it's just, it's everybody's journey is a little bit different. And I would agree with you. I think TikTok and Instagram, and I think it's just a way of accessing this previously totally obscured population. I'm not going to meet these people in my office. Like this is just a wonderful way of accessing this entire population of people who do need information and maybe don't have access to it in the traditional means. So I think that having these alternative sources of information is actually really helpful as a public service.

Speaking of going into the office, we found this stat that showed that ADHD is linked to substantial societal costs across your lifespan. So it's like $15,000 per person. I just posted that video. There you go. So yeah, $12 billion in the United States, right? $40 billion. Is is it it's 40 yeah i think it's 40 she's like i'm gonna go look at my own video i'm gonna look at my own video i think it's 42 just to be totally exact it is fast forwarding yeah yeah i got you i got you cost of illness i was actually gonna forward you this because that's why i did it i was like i know we'll link it we'll link it down 42.5 billion

dollars oh that's a lot of money so yeah it's it's almost like a like right an adhd tax so can we talk about that like what is the impact of that on individuals, on the economy, on that's a crazy amount of money to spend? Yeah, it is. So like looking at looking at so the study that that was on was built in or it was done in 2007, which is kind of an old study. But but if you look at the metrics, it's all pretty accurate. And I would actually I would venture to say that the number is probably more now. Basically, they're looking at things like healthcare wages. So like what you're spending in the doctor's office, what you're spending on medication,

what you're spending on not going to the doctor, like missed appointments, all of that. They're looking at lost work wages. Like I couldn't show up to work. I lost my keys. I made this huge up to work. I lost my keys. I, you know, I made this huge error in work. I got demoted. They're looking at legal kind of fees. So people, so in this case, like children going into juvenile detention things and like the loss of life, the loss of financial freedom, the loss of all of that stuff. So there are a lot of different parameters that they're looking at in that, that, that make up that number. But even if you're looking at financial, when you said ADHD tax, I'm even thinking about like the day-to-day expense

of having ADHD. Like, I mean, if you looked at my life from the past week, I have let groceries expire. I have, I lost my wallet and I had to get my credit card again. And I had a driver's license, right? That costs actual money, but also your time that you have to spend on the phone, calling American Express. Yep. Totally. And like the key fob for my work, my work to office, and that was like 60 bucks. And I was like, okay. So small little things, you're buying stuff that you have already had. There's just a lot of redundancy, a lot of day-to-day things that add up really, really quickly. It's mind boggling. So my husband could, I mean, this guy, there is nothing neurodivergent about, I mean, his mind is like a grid. And so like, he doesn't make those errors. He doesn't make those, like his attention is so

laser focused all the time that, or, you know, not actually all the time, but like, in comparison to me, it feels like that. And so it just is sometimes it's difficult, because, you know, he doesn't understand those things. Like, how could you do that again? And I was like, I don't know. It happened, right. And it's, it's not you doing it intentionally, of course, it's not like manipulative, or or like you purposely sabotaging yourself. It just happens. Well, and so we source questions from our team because we have plenty of, I think we have three, four, five, a good chunk of our team has ADHD or is neurodivergent.

So I think in that same vein of like, you know, how could you do that, right? Or like, how did this happen? of like, you know, how could you do that? Right. Or like, how did this happen? How does internalizing messaging around ADHD affect women and limit their opportunities? Because we hear like, oh, you're just lazy or like, you should meditate and go on a walk. Right. Or like, you're too easily distracted. Like, how does that, how does that end up manifesting? And how does that limit women's opportunities? I mean, I think, first of all, it's just like so hard to be a woman in general. That's just like so difficult. And then you throw ADHD on top of it and it's like this added layer of garbage. So I think what's hard is that I think

societally women have always been expected to be the caretaker, to just kind of shift this emphasis from themselves and their own well-being to everybody else. Take care of your parents, take care of your spouse, take care of your partner, take care of your kids. And there's like nothing left in the vessel for them. So if the little that they spend, the time and effort that they spend into maintaining and taking care of themselves, what's left of that, if that's being picked apart and criticized and being told that it's all wrong, then I mean, there's so little, there's just not an avenue for self-growth and for self-worth. You just don't, you do not feel good about yourself. And so then you're trying

to make decisions and trying to build a future for yourselves based on this just really shaky foundation where you don't have the confidence to do any of those things. So it's not this, you know, like a lot of times people have, it goes two ways, like, right. ADHD can be somewhat humorous where they're like, oh, this person, like, it's just like the space cadet and can't get anything right. And all of these things, but like, that's all, if you're hearing that day in day out, you don't think that you can do anything else. And then on the flip side, you get this, I mean, frankly, just totally other end of bullshit, which is like, people are talking about ADHD being a superpower where they're like, well, even if you have ADHD, you should be able to do these

incredible things because you have this. And it's like, no, no, like I'm truly jealous that you think that that's a thing, but it's so minimizing to other people that are struggling daily with these things. It's so funny you say that because literally one of our team members quote said, you know, ADHD as a superpower, like, are there benefits of ADHD? Like we're talking about like the struggles, right? And I have more questions about that. But like, are there benefits to ADHD? Is that something like we're saying, or people are saying to like, make themselves feel better about ADHD? Like, yeah, of course. I mean, there's some positive sides of ADHD. Like you, you can think really quickly in crisis situations, you can handle a lot of data being thrown at you at once.

You can tend to be spontaneous. You can enjoy things in a different capacity. You can have a huge aptitude for music or creative ventures. And you might be more likely to take risks, which would end up in like just building your own business. But you know what? There's so many other things that are so problematic. So if you gave me the option, if you were like, Sasha, you, you have

the option of having ADHD, and you get to keep all of these benefits or not having it, I'd be like, I would rather not have it. And I know that that's probably not like the sugar-coated rosy version of it, but I think people need to understand it's attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. It is quite literally a disorder. It is a deficit. It's a problem with regulation of certain systems that make it a disorder. So I think when people put this overly sugared version of what it is or what it could be, it just further pushes down people that are truly struggling. I don't know. That's what I think.

No, and I appreciate you saying that because I think it's very easy for you know, for one person's personal experience to feel like the generalization of everybody, both I think for that person and for other people watching of like, oh, that person has ADHD and they seem to be high functioning. Like, why am I not that person? Yeah. Like, again, it's all about shame. When you see somebody else doing well, you know, and handling, you know, their diagnosis quote-unquote better than you and like there's that shame for maybe not feeling as productive or not again quote-unquote handling it as well as this other person yeah i think there's also a lot to be said about transparency of that right because social media in general is such a curated weird space. So like, you're seeing this, like, this version of what the creator or the poster wants you to see. So like, there are certain posts where you're just

like, oh, their life is fully awesome. Like they are going on these great vacations, they have this loving relationship, like, everything is perfect. and inside their brain could be literally on fire. It's not real. There's certain things where not everyone on the internet is vulnerable or authentic or true to themselves. Filters are a thing. It's a weird space. So tread with caution.

And we know that people with ADHD are more likely to experience burnout. So whether that's in school or in their work, why is this? And can we avoid it? And if so, how? How do we avoid that? So the concept of burnout is actually really fascinating. And it's very multifaceted, right? And basically, like if you were to simplify it, it's that when you are hit like nonstop, never ending supply of stimuli or recurrent triggers or stressors, then what happens is that at a certain point, emotionally, you stop being able to cope with it and you start to shut down. And that's when you get this burnout phenomenon. You're not, you're isolating, you're not engaging as much. You may feel like you're having signs of depression.

You're not sleeping as well. You don't feel fulfillment in your life. So with ADHD, if you're already prone to getting absolutely inundated with data, because you have a poor organizational system within, that's more likely to happen. So what happens is that, you know, you, the problem is, is that for a lot of people, you know, you, as burnout is occurring, you're recognizing like, ooh, things are getting weird. Things are getting weird. Things are getting weird. And maybe you don't notice that exact point of burnout, but you see this transition happening.

Maybe I should be pointing you down. This transition happening. But with ADHD, you may not be noticing those cues as much. So you're, you're experiencing these symptoms and you're feeling this ADHD, you may not be noticing those cues as much. So you're experiencing these symptoms and you're feeling this, but you're not able to track it back to I'm overwhelmed at work. So you're just not able to dial down and exactly kind of figure out what is my internal environment and where is this coming from? So it becomes more likely that you get hit by it and you get hit by it almost suddenly or overwhelmingly so. If we are getting to the point of burnout, I mean, this is a larger question for anybody, regardless of neurodivergency.

Like, is there a way to combat it? Is there a way to take care of ourselves? Are there? I mean, we know there's signs, right? So how does that? Is it possible to kind of, I don't know, you turn our way out of ourselves? Are there? I mean, we know there's signs, right? So how does that? Is it possible to kind of, I don't know, you turn our way out of burnout? Yeah. So you know, what's interesting is that as a phenomenon, this, like, I think we're just more aware of it as a culture. Like I, so for healthcare specifically, like the Surgeon General just did,

for healthcare specifically, like the Surgeon General just did, I just spoke with him and the Vice President regarding healthcare burnout. And I think that we're more like what I learned from that. And so the Surgeon General has this entire like, handout about specific guidelines about burnout and what to look for and what, what, and it's specifically to healthcare, but I think it's really applicable for everyone. Like, what are the signs that you look for? What are the things that you can do to kind of pull yourself out and like sample scripts of like, hey, I'm at work. This is overwhelming. What do I need to do to pull myself out?

The big tips that I took away from that that I think is applicable everywhere, and especially for people that are dealing with neurodivergence, is one, to understand your boundaries, and then two, to vocalize them. So if you're like, even if it's getting to the point where you're not at a spot, you feel fine, and you're looking down the pipeline, you're like, oh, okay, I could tell I'm going to be heading into this busy season. Like this is only going to get worse, right? Maybe it's worthwhile stopping and being like, okay, this is where I have to draw the line. Because if I am answering calls after work hours, if I'm responding to emails when I should be spending time with my family,

drawing those hard lines and then thinking of them. And then as things are progressing, if you see like, hey, we're heading along this thing, and I feel like some of those boundaries might be crossed, setting those firm boundaries right off the bat, like letting your team know, listen, these are my work hours. I'm only going to, I have to conserve myself because I won't be able to keep going at this pace much longer. So these are the hours I'm going to respond to emails afterwards, you can it'll get shunted to an emergency call service, or I'll respond to the next business day. And so I think those are the two big things that I've

started to employ as well. So when you're dealing with burnout, dealing with figuring out what your boundaries are, vocalizing those boundaries, and then also just taking care of yourself, using self-care, using these things to kind of pull yourself out of the hole if you kind of overshot it. So I guess it boils down to preventative stuff. And then if you couldn't prevent it, which a lot of us can't, how to pull yourself out of it. Yeah. And I can say as someone now who is managing and leading a team with neurodivergent members, one of the things that we are struggling with as leaders is, of course, being empathetic of our team members when they're feeling overworked, but also realizing there's certain

deadlines that we have to hit. And so I think one of the things that's helpful for me as a manager that neurodivergent people can do is basically give us the plan B of, you know, hey, I didn't set my boundaries early enough or something happened. And again, we try to be respectful. We don't want you working, overworking. But giving us like, here's the plan of who can potentially take on this work while I'm not doing well. Or I've made this contingency plan for this to happen. Because yeah, that's the tricky thing of running a business is, of course, you're putting your team members first and you want them to be okay. Well, at the same time,

if these things don't get done, there are financial impacts to that. There are significant costs. We're in violation of contracts, you know. So that's something that we're trying to find the balance of is, you know, both making sure that we're preventing this in the first place, but also, you know, it would be helpful for us to have, because, you know, you know your brain better than anybody else to be able to help us help you in that way. Totally. Totally. And I think that's, that's honestly, that's such a relief to hear from the managing side of things. Like, because I think what is helpful is just understanding that communications between you and your boss are collaborative, right? You're trying

to solve a problem. And I also, I need to hear about it. I don't know you're struggling until you tell me, right? And I might be able to see it because I'm pretty perceptive, but like, you have to tell me, right? Because I don't want to micromanage you to the point that I realize you haven't done your work, you know, for X amount of time. So, and again, it's something that we haven't perfected. We're still trying to figure that out. It's very challenging. And I know it's challenging for our team sometimes too. And so I think, yeah, as the person who's managing neurodivergent team members, I think that communication is so, so important. And when it hasn't been there, it's been really tricky. It's been really, really tricky. But can I tell you something that I forgot to tell you? Sure. One of the best things about having ADHD people on the team is that for people with ADHD, if they're

truly inspired and engaged in what they're doing, the quality of their work, like you can fall into a period of hyper focus where you get done with like three times the amount of work. Oh, we see it. Yeah. And so you get these like it's all about finding the right fit, not only for the employee, but the employer. And like with ADHD, if you are interested and engaged and like if what you're doing lights your soul on fire, you are going to be awesome at it. If what you're doing lights your soul on fire, you are going to be awesome at it. And I think that there's a lot of, yeah, I don't want to give off the thought that people with ADHD are just going to be like slugs at work because they're not.

They're awesome. I agree. And again, it's something that I haven't, it's new to me, right? How to navigate this. And it's also, you know, I'm the CEO. And so technically, I just manage our rest of our executives and they manage everybody. And so it's, you know, it's really equipping, trying to equip my leadership team with the skills to, you know, navigate these conversations and navigate. And yeah, actually, one of our members of our C-suite

actually does have ADHD. And I think it's a beautiful opportunity for us and for him to connect with other neurodivergent members on our team, because I think he gets it better than, of course, better than I do. So what other resources exist for people with ADHD, especially women who might be getting a later in life diagnosis? So I like the free resources available. Chad has great free resources. The site I've actually been using a lot, which is actually really helpful for anyone in their journey, but I really like it for like parents is understood.org. It's this like, it's just a great, it's a nonprofit. So it's free resources. And it shows you like they have sample scripts of what to say, like what to ask your

teacher, what to ask your boss, what to ask and like how to get through. It explains like the difference between accommodations and what you can ask for. So it's a really nice thing to have in terms of like for employment and for educating yourself and how to how to start those discussions. So I love those two online resources. And if you're looking for like a self-care kind of thing, my book, Self-Care for People with ADHD is coming out on January 3rd through Simon Schuster. Book buddies. I didn't realize I'm mine's coming out December 27th. We're like right on the heels of each other. Is yours coming out the very next week? Hold on. Yep. Very next week. Look at that. Oh my gosh, book buddy. How do we get New York Times right next to each other is yours coming out the very next week hold on yep very next week look at that oh my gosh book buddy how do we get new york times right next to each other i'll see you and i'll

see you on the list we'll be little book neighbors it'll be great well i would die of happiness that would be amazing it's yeah but i mean you just did this so So, you know, the, the whole book writing process was like, I mean, horrendous, right? It was so hard and so long and so difficult, but I think what came out of it was like, and what I kept like telling myself throughout the writing process is that I was like, if I could just write a guide to myself 10 years ago, like 15 years ago, like this would have helped me so much and helped me get out of so many holes. So I think that's and that's probably like exactly where you're coming from. Very similar. And, and this audience knows I've complained about this whole book thing the entire time. Like, I'm so glad I did it. I like so glad but definitely the hardest thing

professionally I've ever done like, and I am not neurodivergent. So I can't even imagine that added stress of like, just focusing because that was the hardest part for me is my brain would not focus. It was like bribing a toddler. At least that's what it felt like. It was like, I'll give you iPad time if you focus for 15 minutes. And then it would be like 15 minutes of focus. And they'd be like, I'm done for the day. And I'm like, no, you have to do this 80 more times. Like I need you to write 80 more of the paragraph you just wrote. And yeah. I can't, like, I don't know. It's confusing to even think about that that happened. I don't know how it happened. I don't know. Literally, that's what I've said. I was like, did I black out? Like, I honest to God, I'm like,

did I black out for three months? I think I blacked out because I don't know about you. I kept running the company. Like a lot of people I know who wrote books, like just wrote the book for a period of time. I did not really take time off. Like I took two months in Europe technically, but like I was still traveling slash vacationing. And then I was still online sometimes. And it was like, I don't know. I don't know how you did that. Yeah. I was still seeing patients and I have, so I have a two and a four year old and they were super annoying. So, I mean, it was just like, it was a lot. Well, talk to me about that because we have a question for you about motherhood. Like how does ADHD impact your work as a mom? I mean, it impacts it all over the place, right?

I mean, it impacts it all over the place, right? So like, not only the attack, like, I can barely keep my own brain together. So now I have to keep like two little people's brains intact. Also, it's so it's hard. It's for sure hard, but it is such a labor of love that you you you just kind of I know this isn't good advice, because it's not really advice, but it's, it's something encouraging potentially is that you kind of figure it out. And what I've learned is that no one is really good at parenting. Like they look like they're good at it, but everybody's still trying to figure it out. And it's so highly dependent on what your kid is like. So I think it's just a matter of like understanding your own boundaries and understanding like I need sustained attention for my kids and to be able to allocate, but I also really, really, really need to understand when I need to take a break and when I need my husband to swoop in or when I need iPad time. I need those things because that's going to, that's going to ensure my clinical sanity. So, I mean, it's, it's tough, but it's, it's really, it's actually super

enjoyable. That's really nice to hear. Yeah. A couple of our team members, when we interviewed them for this mentioned it being difficult to advocate for their needs with doctors, especially like a stigma around medication for ADHD. Like they echoed the sentiment that it felt really difficult to find a medication that worked and to even get intervention in the first place. So if someone is neurodivergent, what can they do when they're talking with doctors to advocate for their needs? And I think you mentioned like, you know, there's scripts, which sounds so helpful, and we'll link them in the show notes. Is there anything else that they can do to make sure that they're being heard in the doctor's office? So I love this question. And this is kind of what I recommend is what the doctor is going to want to know is kind of like the timeline of your symptoms.

So talk to them about and like prepare ahead of time. So prepare with like, this is when my symptoms first started. This is what my symptoms look like. This is how it's impacting me on a day to day basis. Because working with your doctor should be a collaborative experience. You're relaying your own internal experience and they are taking that information and working with you to make a treatment plan. So it shouldn't be this one-sided, like my doctor doesn't believe me. They're not going to like, I'm not going to

get this. So have your homework, like prepare what your symptoms are like, when they started, how long they've been going on, how do they affect you now? And also do your research on your doctor. Like there is a lot of doctors have an online presence. It might not be social media, but it might be, you know, like a practice page where they talk about what they cover. what they cover. A lot of them are comfortable in talking about like, I do ADHD. I specialize in this certain area, blah, blah, blah. So do your research on that. Look at reviews, look at all of those things, because that's, what's going to help you kind of, if you're seeing like overwhelmingly, like this guy sucks, maybe don't go to that person. If you're, if you're seeing comments or like you're reading sentiments about like, I didn't feel heard that my appointments lasted two seconds, like things like that. I think that you're going to get a clear field, like maybe this isn't going to be a good phase. So you have to find someone who is well versed in ADHD that is willing to listen to you. And then you have to be prepared because they're going to ask you questions about

that. So is that the step for people who think they might have ADHD themselves, right? Is to do some research, seek out professional help. Would you recommend getting a diagnosis? I imagine for a lot of people that feels like a relief in a lot of ways. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. It depends on what the diagnosis brings you, right? So my standard line is the minute you have questions about your brain, like, don't know what this is, want to know more. It's a going, and if you have access to it, going to a physician is a form of expanding your knowledge and understanding about your brain. So I don't think that there's any stage that that's too early or too late for it. Because I think there's always going to be a spot where you

need you could educate yourself more. So diagnosis, what diagnosis will bring you? I think yes, it could definitely give you some validation, it could potentially open up access to certain medications and treatment styles that you may not have access to otherwise. But there's a lot of just behavioral techniques. Say you were like, I think I have ADHD. Do behavioral techniques. Learn about how your brain is functioning and how, you know, if you get that diagnosis or if you think you have ADHD, there's stuff that's still like you can work on and you don't need a formal diagnosis that is going to make your brain feel better because access to care is such an issue. Like not everybody has that available. So that's, that's part of the reason why I think social media is so important because it's a place

where you can get information you don't need an appointment for. You've founded this app, which I think is really cool tell us about focus genie yeah so focus genie is a comprehensive adhd management app that talks and and it comes down to just behavioral management of adhd so for people that really want to understand about their brain and then utilize tools so that they can build sustainable change, this is kind of built for them. So it doesn't have anything to do with medication. It doesn't have anything to do with that. It's all about how to understand your brain and how to better your brain and optimize your brain using behavioral techniques. And so it's got educational modules, it's got task timers that you can break down and task, it's got a to do list, it's got a

mindfulness area, it's got body doubles. So it's got, it's Tori, it's the cutest. It's the best. I'm obsessed with it. I'm like, I want it. Can I not neurodivergent people come in. That sounds fun. I could, I could use that. That is, I mean, that's also been a very annoying process in terms of development, but we're, we're so much work. Yeah, so much work. But we're, we're getting to the point now where our release is probably going to be early next year. And so that'll be available for download on iOS and Google Play. It'll probably be here by the time this is out, which makes me very happy. My last question for you, if somebody is listening, especially if they're ADHD or neurodivergent and they're struggling with their diagnosis and especially struggling with money, what is like one one thing you would say to them?

Some parting wisdom. That it's it's OK, that people who have had ADHD, typically it gets, they have complicated relationship with money. And there is a lot of complicated feelings around guilt and shame, not being able to do the things that other neurotypical people can do and not being afforded the freedoms that neurotypical people have because they just aren't as good at as handling their money. But you can do it. You just have to understand at the basis of it that your brain works differently and try to come up with ways to make that more doable. And I'll give you a really quick example of that. And then I promise I'll leave you alone. doable. And I'll give you a really quick example of that. And then I promise I'll leave you alone.

Really quick example is like, for me, I was talking about my impulsivity earlier in this episode where we were talking about like, I mean, literally going into a store, I felt weird if I didn't buy shoes, like I would go in there and I was like, I'm fine. And then I would see something and I'm like, okay, this is happening. What I learned to do is just, I recognize that that's a behavioral pattern I have. And I would not bring a credit card with me. I would bring a debit card. And I would know like in residency, I was like, I have approximately $30 to my name. I can't charge this to the game. So I can't do this today. So you have to find ways of like, if I know that I have these aberrant checkpoint processes that are happening in my brain, how can I compensate for that? And how I can compensate for that is just be smarter than my own brain. Don't bring that credit card. I think that's really thoughtful. One of the things I just listened to an episode

that we released today, somebody was asking me like, I don't use a debit the things I just listened to an episode that we released today, somebody was asking me, I don't use a debit card. I just put everything on a credit card and I pay it off on time and in full. And I've never had a credit card balance because for me, I've known about money and also I'm not neurodivergent. And so I think it's a good reminder for me as an educator because in that episode, I talked about like, yeah, credit cards are not bad. Put everything on a credit card and pay it off. But if you have a bad relationship with a credit card already, like this is not the answer. Like this is not for you. And so I say all the time, personal finance is personal. And I think it's, again, a good reminder for me that not everybody's brain works

the same way mine does. In theory, from a financial standpoint, it's great to put everything on the credit card and then to not carry the balance, pay it off completely. But I think just some people, yeah, that's not a possibility. Not even financially. It's not like they are struggling with debt in that way, but literally their brains won't allow them to just be like, cool, I'm only putting purchases on the credit card that I can afford to pay off later. So it's a good reminder for me too. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for your expertise. Where can people find you and find out more about your work? Yeah. So I am on social media on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube, the psych doctor MD and doctor is D O C T O R. You can look for my book as my book buddy. That's out january 3rd the app will be out around

that time as well and what is your book called say say it so we know it self-care for people with adhd pretty self-explanatory yeah it's a very straightforward title i know thank you for being here appreciate it you're so welcome thank you again to dr hamdani for joining us she dropped some incredible resources in the episode. We've linked all of them in the show notes. And if you enjoyed it or you think somebody else might, please share it with your friends, family, maybe with your co-workers. Financial Feminists exists because of you, so we can't thank you enough for your support. Please feel free to rate, review, subscribe so you don't miss a single episode. Thank you for

being here. And if you're ready and you need more support in getting your financial shit together, if you're trying to figure out how to budget, how to save, how to invest, we have a free resource for you. Go to herfirst100k.com slash start or herfirst100k.com slash quiz. We'll link both of them down below and take the step-by-step money quiz to give you personalized, guided resources wherever you are at in your financial life. Thanks for listening, financial feminists, and we'll catch you later. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields,

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