Financial Feminist - 76. Pay Inequity in Women's Athletics with Ilona Maher

Episode Date: March 14, 2023

How much does an Olympic athlete REALLY make? Why are women’s athletics so grossly underpaid in comparison to their men’s team counterparts (especially when they’re outperformed at the highest levels *side eye*)? We wanted to know everything about the state of women’s athletics, so we brought in one of the biggest names in women’s sports –– Ilona Maher. You might remember Ilona from her viral TikToks taking you behind the scenes of the 2020 Olympic Games or for her “Beast, Beauty, Brains” slogan. In this episode, Tori and Ilona talk about everything from the challenges of women’s sports to the privilege of access to athletics, to what it’s like dating as an Olympian. Learn more about our guests, read transcripts, and get more financial resources at www.financialfeministpodcast.com Not sure where to start? Take our FREE money personality quiz! www.herfirst100k.com/quiz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, financial feminists. Welcome back to the show. I am back in town. The boys are back in town. I'm back in town after a wonderful month off. I honestly feel so invigorated. Like, truly, I do. I really needed the break for me, but also to show up as a better leader and a better business owner. And I'm really excited for a lot of exciting new things that are coming. And I'm just really excited to bring you new episodes this week. There are a ton of you who are new here. Hello, you're either coming from TikTok or maybe you're coming from my book also called Financial Feminist or maybe you're here from another podcast. So if you're enjoying our episodes, please make sure to subscribe or follow us on your preferred podcasting platform and you can set your device to auto download new episodes. It helps both you

listen to episodes when you don't have Wi-Fi or when you forget to download them, but also helps us. Part of the success of the show is deemed in how many downloads we have. So when you just download even on autopilot, it really helps support the show. As always, we're just really excited to bring in an amazing guest. We're in the middle of Women's History Month, and we've already had some great guests sharing important feminist topics. And today's is no exception. You might know her from TikTok. That's how I discovered her.

I'm obsessed with her. Ilona Mar made her splash on TikTok during the most recent Olympic Games, sharing her journey as a member of the U.S. women's rugby team. She graduated with a degree in nursing in 2018 and recently got her MBA from Keller School of Management, and she currently trains full-time for the USA 7's team. She was such a fantastic guest to chat with. We talked about the financials of Olympians. Fun fact, most of them don't make a lot of money, like very, very little money, and most of them don't actually get paid anything to go to the Olympics. We also talk about the current state of women's sports and the equal pay movement, what it's like feeling beautiful and strong as a woman, and so much more. So let's go ahead and get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors.

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There's no way. Like, he's so hot. He wouldn't like me. And then I'm like, he's going to like me. We're going to be fine. Like, and it's like, it's just been coming into like my own, I guess. It's been like a journey myself. And like having this sort of power that you find within is like, I'm hot as heck.

Yep. Well, and you realize like anybody who doesn't find me hot, like I don't even take it personally anymore. I'm like, well, that's your loss. Okay. Same. Okay. All right. You're not it. That's okay. We'll move. We'll move along. Seven billion people in this world. We'll find someone. Totally. And then you get the men who like cannot believe their luck. They're like just so down and excited that's what i need that's what i need i was just like hanging out with a guy who like i just kind of tweeted about it barely asked me any questions like i just was like do you have any siblings he's like yeah i have a brother i'm

like did you want to know about my sisters who are the best things ever and he like didn't didn't give me anything i was like that's all right So now I know that's exactly what I don't want. It's all great learning experiences. Okay. Question for you, because I am extremely direct. I'm like the most direct person you'll ever meet. I have not mastered the after 15 minutes going, Hey, you seem like a great person. I wish you all the best, but this isn't working. And I'm not going to waste my time. I'm not going to waste your time. I'm going to leave. I have not mastered that yet. I still sit through the first date, even when I know. I'm going to be honest. I sit through the first date as well, because I personally,

you can get a vibe from a person in the first five minutes. And it has nothing to do with their physical attributes truly i know within 10 seconds of meeting somebody whether it's going to go well or not 100 and it's the way they carry themselves their energy like i know immediately and there's been times where i want to be like i'm just going to walk right out this right yeah it's not going to work i had a terrible date once and like this guy just like online he was so funny it was so he was so cool when we dm me and then i met him in person he picked me up and i got in the car and i was like this is not the person i was like dming with they're not that funny

and then the date was bad he watched an nba game at the table he was like can i watch this game and i was like you know what at this point honestly i don't even want to talk to you so watch the game but we're in the car back to my to drop me off and I was like so how do you think that went because he's like yeah good customer feedback yeah he's like yeah good I was like okay I don't think that went well for me and I'm not I don't want to ghost you but I will not be hanging out again with you I love that I had recently I went on a date in New York and the guy was a little late, which he warned me of. That's fine. He showed up on the phone and sat down and continued to have a conversation. And I was like, do you need to take that outside? And he's like, oh yeah.

And I'm like, I'm not your mom who needs to teach you manners when you show up. Like if you have a call, fine. If you're coming minutes late, I get it. I've been there. I'm a busy business woman. I get it. But like, take that goddamn call outside. Do not sit down at this date on the phone. No, no, no, no, no. How do they think that's okay? How do they think that? I don't know, dude. I have no idea. I don't know. I have so many other, I don't know. I have so many other, I just, I have so many questions, but like, I, I love following you in general. You're so fucking talented and smart. And I know that you and I have very similar, like dating is hard. Dating's hard when you're confident and when you're successful and it's hard for women dating men. It's not easy. It's not easy and it's not fun sometimes. Most of the time. Definitely not fun. Okay. Let's talk about rugby. We were a little shocked when we were researching

you to know that you came to rugby kind of later in life. What was the interest there and what made you decide to go for it at a collegiate level? Yeah. I think rugby is a very special sport right now in the US because it's not like soccer and basketball where you start super young and you're playing in summer seasons, winter seasons. Rugby is really still coming up in the US. So when I was in high school, I've always been an athlete. I've always been a very good athlete, but I always wanted to play sports at the highest level. And the problem was, is that rugby was never there at the highest level. So my dad's a rugby player. He's been playing for like 40 years now. And he would have loved if we'd played

rugby, but he also wanted his daughters to play the highest varsity levels there was. So instead of like putting us in rugby that didn't have anything, he put us in like field hockey and I played basketball and softball. And then it wasn't until my senior year of high school where I was like, you know, softball is not for me. want to try something different and my dad was like well you got to do something because I was just going to sit there you know my senior year he wanted me to still do something so I tried out for the local rugby team and like I mean I think my body was just made for rugby like I immediately got it and I just like immediately went out there and tackled and stiff-armed and scored tries and like I think it was just I found my place in rugby.

And so happy that I took that chance to try something and not just go, oh, I'll just play softball or, oh, I just won't do anything. It's really changed the trajectory of my life, just trying out. You just mentioned you grew up as an athlete. What are some of the emotional, financial costs associated with being an athlete

before you go professional that a random person listening to this might not think about? Yeah, I mean, so many sports, I've played a lot of sports where it's like, doesn't have the most equipment. But a lot of sports, I mean, if you want to play hockey, you want to play football, you want to play all the sports like the equipment needed for that golf, I don't even start golf lacrosse even like equipment is so expensive i mean i buy cleats for myself now that are they're like nikes and they're like 260 for a pair of cleats because i we don't get cleats actually for free so i buy my own cleats so you are a an olympic athlete and you don't get your own cleats. You have to buy your own cleats. Yeah, it's a very interesting thing. And so $260 for a pair of shoes with studs on them?

Scammers! How many of those pair are you going through? I imagine that's not going to last you a couple of years. I do push them out for longer than I should. I probably do about like two pairs a year. But if I could, I'd love to like not really like wear them down until they're barely studs left. But that's like, you know, you have to go through, I mean, field hockey, you have to buy a stick that's a hundred and something dollars. So, and then if you want to play like AAU basketball and whatnot, like that is expensive

and that the travel to get to the tournament. So that's like, to be a D1 athlete, you know, you can be a great athlete as well, but you need to go to these tournaments to be seen by coaches, which are five hours away, you need to pay for a hotel there, you need to pay for food there. So the track to be an athlete is not a cheap one as well. It takes a lot of money, it takes a lot of time from the athlete and the parents and everything like that. And it's all the financial commitment, but also like the emotional commitment of like, I come from a theater background. I did athletics for a while. And then I was like, now I'm doing theater and music and doubling down on that. And the joke was always like, oh, I can't do that. I have rehearsal. Right. Like that was, that was always like,

and I imagine for you, it was like, oh, I can't, I have practice or, oh, I can't, I have a game. That was always like, and I imagine for you, it was like, oh, I can't, I have practice or, oh, I can't, I have a game. Right. And like, in order to be laser focused on something, there's a lot of sacrifice that you have to make to your personal life, sometimes to like your relationships, because you're doing this thing, especially at a professional level. For sure. I think a lot of sacrifice, but I almost don't even, I guess I don't really call it sacrifice as much because like, it's something that I just truly want to do. Like, I just love it. I love it. Cause in college I did rugby and I also was a nursing major and everyone's like, how did you do that? I was spent so hard. And yeah, it was hard, but I truly wanted to be a nurse and I truly wanted to be a great rugby

player. So it wasn't a sacrifice so much as like are just something that I it brings me joy to be a great nursing student and great rugby player so that's something like yeah it would have been nice to go out with my friends more to drink more but like I loved what I was doing there's a lot of sacrifices in other ways yeah that's how I feel with running my business it's like I spend more time on that it feels like a child like I spend more time doing this than anything else but I love love it. I love it. And yeah, there's parts of it that I hate, but like I love most of it. So, okay. And you also got your MBA, right? So what about having a business degree changed your perspective on athletics, on just you existing in the world? Like what about getting your MBA change things for you

yeah I feel like honestly you'll be so proud of me that I got my MBA I put that in there I was like guess what Tori got my MBA it's whatever no I love it I fucking love it so I we got free classes so I have my uh bachelor's in nursing and I passed my NCLEX so I'm a registered nurse I've never used my degree yet but through the U.S. Olympic Committee which is who pays me I get free classes through a online school and so I told my dad I was like dad oh I get free classes through this school like should I take some and he was like are you yeah of course you should take some are you serious because not many of my teammates take it so I was like okay so there wasn't wasn't any like classes for nursing specific, like a master's of nursing science or something more health related because it was all online. And so there's only a master's of business with like a focus in health administration. for that i was like i don't really have like was it super psyched to learn about accounting and stuff like that out to be very honest like but the thought of that i could learn more and get

better and i honestly will say that driving factor is that if i'm when i'm done with rugby when i'm in a hospital or whatever i'm doing and there's a position for a hire to be a chief nursing officer to be the ceo or whatever i want to be one of the first in line. And I don't want to have wished I'd gotten my MBA. I don't want them to be like, well, this dude, if it's, and if it's a man, this man has all this, he's done all this. Well, oh, well, I've actually done all this as well while being an Olympian. So that was a driving factor.

And then it was just to learn more about myself as like a, how I can be a better business woman. And it's still like learning constantly. Because it was definitely a switch up from when I kind of went viral over the Olympics and who I am now. So it's like, in a year, a lot of a lot has changed for me. A lot's changed. Well, and for us, I think uniquely, like for me, TikTok completely changed my life, like completely changed my life and my business. And I feel, I imagine it did the same for you. So like, what was your life like before blowing up on TikTok and what's it like now? Yeah. I mean, TikTok, I say it all the time is the most powerful app out there. Like it is amazing what it can do for people and what it's done for me. So my life like before was like all of us on the USA seven team are just,

we just want to put ourselves out there because we get paid through our Olympic committee. We get like bonuses through USA rugby when we win tournaments and whatnot, but we're getting paid, you know, very below minimum as a lot of female athletes are who just are doing it because of this. We're doing it because of pure passion for the sport. if you're i always say if you're in rugby for money you're in the wrong wrong sport and the wrong business because we weren't getting paid a lot but like the absolute love for the game and the love to grow and i always say like i'm i'm playing really not for myself i'm playing and trying to grow the game so that when other girls come in,

they can have $100,000 contract sometime one day, you know? So it was definitely a tough time. We all like we're trying to, we'd get like free stuff and try to post free stuff and see if that helps. We were trying to grow on all sorts of different platforms. And then it wasn't until like early 2020 when I was on TikTok. I didn't do any TikTok during the pandemic, but early 2020 when I was on TikTok. I didn't do any TikTok during the pandemic, but early 2020 when I was on TikTok at a rugby tournament in Spain and I

started to see people react to it and they really were feeling it. And some of the rugby content, I was like, okay, interesting. So I'm going to keep doing this. So I kept posting TikToks and within even like a couple of days, I became known as a rugby TikTok girl. And then I just kept kind of doing it. I remember that moment, because I think that's how I discovered you. You had like the big viral video. And I was like, you were just, I want to give you credit, maybe you did this

intentionally, but you were so smart and how you went about like, you have a brain of a marketer, whether you know it or not. Like, it was brilliant in terms of execution. Like, it was very smart. Like, you were very personable. Like, you know, it was right at the of execution. Like it was very smart. Like you were very personable. Like, you know, it was right at the peak of people's interest, right? It was like the perfect time to post that kind of content and in the format that you did. Like it was brilliant. I just was honestly being myself.

I didn't think of it as like any way to like, if I do this, it's going to do this. Like, especially then we went to the Olympics and I knew that the Olympics were going to be a key time I knew that people grow in the Olympics like people get get famous and get more money from the Olympics so that was really exciting but we were first told you can't do anything in the Olympic Village you can't record anything in your rooms you can't record anything in certain spaces and so I was like well that sucks like this would have been my time to really like put myself out there and then thankfully the first day we got into the billers and they're like no you can post things but like you have to be smart about it and you have to wear a mask when you're in public

areas and I was like when they said that I was like this is go time so then I just like started thinking about how can I bring people in this and the cardboard beds was the big thing and so I was like hey guys everyone come into this room and try and do some weird this and the cardboard beds was the big thing and so I was like hey guys everyone come into this room and try and do some weird stuff on the cardboard beds and like that is what started it and I mean in the Olympics like I just kind of posted what everybody was thinking and just kind of like everyone we're in a village with the hottest people in the world yeah we're all we're all thirsting after each other I'm just the one saying it okay yeah so i mean it was just a really cool time and it was it was a stressful time but a very cool time at the olympics it was like the commentary that i wanted for mbc like that

was the commentary i secretly wanted that you were giving you know of yeah what is it like to have all of these successful athletes who are yeah relatively young all hot just hanging out from a bunch of different countries it has to be like a summer camp weirdly it's a it's a wild time we didn't get to do much because like we were only there for some outside covid and they had to leave to two days after whatever but i mean i can only imagine what it is usually like yeah well and of course you know you're there to to play your sport, but it's also like, well, I got some time. I don't know. Let's see what happens. We talked earlier about dating. I, of course, have had the experience as a successful woman

of men being intimidated by me by my financial stability by a lot of things i'm gonna ask the question assuming it's happened are the men you're going on dates with ever intimidated by like you being an olympian like i imagine most most men right see a physically and emotionally very strong woman and a lot of men unfortunately see that like very in a very intimate i think self-conscious is a good word i think a lot of guys have become a little self-conscious yeah when they hang out with me but i think i mean i haven't done many much dating well okay it's been a good couple months for me i will say for me i've always felt like men are very intimidated more by me physically

that's a reason because I'm a very big woman I'm a very strong woman and then my personality is also can be very like loud and out there and I like to say what I want to say and be direct like you you know you at times like just oh this is what i feel i'm going to say it so that i've always felt like they've been intimidated in that sense but i've also just kind of like learned to now just weed out the ones who are going to be self-conscious or intimidated and the guys who like are really into me like are just down with whatever i'm putting out and that's what's really cool to me but i i love being like no I'll pick up this check no don't don't worry I got this you know the power I feel when I'm like no no no you chill

I just I just made a deal don't worry oh it just courses through my veins that power yep nope I feel the same way it's my favorite I went on a date with such a sweetie and he like pulled out his card and he was like and i could tell like he wanted to say something and i was like what's what's up what's on your mind he's like i would really like to pay because that's important to me will you let me pay and i was like yeah i'll let you pay sure like that's fine because he knew right financial feminine like he's like i don't want you to be offended but i really i would really like to pay can I pay and I was like yeah you can 100% pay and it was like so emotionally intelligent so lovely and I was like yeah you can pay that's fine it's it was very sweet it was very

sweet okay so when I think especially prior to following you on TikTok when I think Olympics I think Simone Biles Michael Phelps like all of these people who have made a lot of money being Olympic athletes, like, you know, the Olympic logo must be worth its weight in gold for these people. And so I think a lot of people listening might think, oh, when they're Olympic athletes, they've made it. And not only have they quote unquote made it, but they've made a ton of money. But for most folks, that's probably not the case. So how do Olympic athletes actually get paid? Yeah, that is a big rumor there that we're all spread in that people, Olympic athletes get a lot of money. Because a lot of my teammates are still like in the same place that we've been in the way that athletes get money is through sponsorships and through deals

in that nature, like promoting this on your channel endorsements. Yeah. Right. So it's very interesting in that I see all these athletes who we just do, we go through all this, we run fitness tests, we put our bodies on the the line we are pretty much destroying our mental health in some ways for not that much money and so it's really interesting like the difference in payment you know between men and women of course and then just between like those athletes like like the Michael Phelps Simone Biles even the women's soccer team and us. I mean, the money is just so different. And for me, I've been able to, through TikTok, make some money through those endorsements. But my teammates want to do the same thing and they want me to give them advice. And I'm like,

I don't know. It's all how you roll the dice. It's how you talk to people. It's how you present on social media there's really i don't really know if there's a formula for it it's like it's all about putting yourself out there and having a personality so not only do you have to be great on the field and be work your ass off you also have to be just a funny person and have to have a personality if you're pretty that's even better you know so it's like these athletes are expected to be literally the whole package to get, you know, quarters and dimes. Yeah. I was talking to Queen Herbie. I don't know if you know her work. She's a musician. She's amazing. And also blew up on TikTok. I've been following her career for 10 years and is

now a friend of mine. And we had her on the podcast. And like she was talking about, like, you can't just be a good musician you have to be like your own hype person you have to be you know the person who's on tiktok she's like you cannot get a record deal now without blowing yourself up on tiktok first you can't get played on the radio without blowing yourself up on tiktok and it feels like kind of the same thing where it's like it's not enough to just be an incredibly successful athlete it's like with the asterisks oh if you want to make money at this thing you actually have to spend all of this other time hyping yourself up building a brand that's a lot it is a lot and it's so true i think like surface level attractiveness as well

in athletes is like something that people look for like you could be the best player on a team and have the best especially for women the best you score all the points you do all this you have the best step but if you're not hot it's like oh it's just it's very interesting right or if you're not performing femininity in a certain way right yeah 100% it's like you especially like female athletes you have to have every every little thing about you works and so for me I thankfully have a personality that works for TikTok and that has put me out there and people really respond to but I also have to like I try to do like show myself really feminine pretty on TikTok because like I want people to also like me in that way so it's like trying to be everything all at once it's hard and time consuming. Well, and I think any person on TikTok, any person on social media,

but especially women, there is the element of you kind of have to play the game even if you don't want to. Like I went to an event, I was flown out for this beautiful event a couple weeks ago in New York and it was very much like a traditional influencer event and i walked in and like i looked great but i walked in on a 15 banana republic dress and adidas and everybody else had gotten like full glam done bought new outfits and i was like shit is this what i'm quote unquote supposed to be doing like is this what i'm supposed to be doing in order like i ultimately i don't care but it's also like am i hurting my career by not performing femininity in a certain way and like how shitty is that it's it's really tough and coming from a sport like rugby which is thought of as a very

masculine sport very like and i think that's something that I maybe I'm not only trying to prove to others but also like prove to myself that I'm feminine because I feel very feminine I feel like beautiful but like I want others to feel that way about me as well and that's where I get into like really wanting people to like me and wanting people to see the sides of me but it is like oh is that is that what I'm supposed to look like? Is that what femininity is? And is that what, you know, is right for me? So I feel that. It's tough. Right. And it's like, do I participate knowing that I will make more money if I participate in, yeah, in femininity the way it's expected versus what if that's not true to myself, right? Or what if, like, it's not true at the level that i need to do

yeah i struggle with that i struggle with that too of like people expect me to show up a certain way i show up on social media all the time without makeup and i always get a comment about it and like ultimately i don't care but then right my brain the the marketer the person who is good at making money part of my brain goes like did you just lose out on money because you don't look quote-unquote professional which men don't have to deal with those men tucking their shirts like that's it that's it that's it and I always thought too like if I don't look pretty on social media like well guys aren't gonna want me because I don't look pretty I'm like honestly that's so wrong it's so wrong I just I was always afraid about that when I posted the video like oh man I look like absolute crap in this video they're gonna not guys won't like me it's so wrong i just i was always afraid about that when i posted the video like oh man i look

like absolute crap in this video they're gonna not guys won't like me it's like okay that's just wrong if you find the right people they'll like you yep and it's patriarchal bullshit right it's the patriarchy being like again perform femininity in this certain way and the and it's always or you won't find a man right and this assumes of course that that people who identify as women even want men right maybe you're you know gender non-binary maybe you are into women right but i think that that's always the the thing and that's what the trolls come for first and i don't know if this is ever for you i'm sure you get comments about your body right and for me it's like, why are you doing this? You won't find a man. No man will ever want to marry you. And I'm like,

yeah. Sweet, honestly. I don't need a man. I'm doing great. I'm doing great for myself. Yeah, that's always the addendum. My comments are always, are you a man? You look so masculine or whatever. And that's's like i always say like hey say those things to me you say them because i'd rather you say them to me it's what makes me mad is that they're saying this to other young girls like if you'd said that to a young alona in high school middle school she would have been like oh no i'm i feel very feminine i'm like a girl so like say that shit to me but if you say that young girls, that grinds my gears like no other. Because I know it's just a man or a young boy behind their computer who thinks they're so cool.

And that's what, oh, oh, I'll fight somebody. No, and one, turn it into content. That's what I do with my hate comments. And typically they go viral. It's great. And I look at you and I'm like, that's the kind of strength that I want to see a diversity of body types for women. I want to see women be strong. And again, in a patriarchal society that has told us to literally shrink ourselves to be as small as possible,

somebody standing in their power, but especially standing in their power physically, that's fucking incredible. That's incredible. So yeah yeah I get mad for you I'm like no no those comments no thank you I brought up Michael Phelps Simone Biles all these people in these like classic primetime sports right gymnastics swimming do you feel like you have to fight harder for pay and endorsement deals than someone in a primetime sport it's almost like I don't really get deals for the sport I play though like for me and my teammates we aren't we're not because rugby's not out there we just don't get deals like that like soccer players if you're on the national soccer team if you're doing swimming like you're getting deals for that but I'm really

getting deals because I'm a tiktoker and like that's something that like really sucks is like people call me a content creator and I'm like no I'm an athlete who happens to do tiktok but we and my teammates aren't really getting deals for rugby and being athletes so much as I'm getting deals for being on tiktok an influencer yeah so athletes kind of second I make more money as a TikToker than as an athlete which really sucks and I think it's kind of changing the landscape kind of for athletes as well like all athletes who are in these niche sports want to be on these apps because they're not companies aren't going to sponsor a rugby team because they don't really know rugby but they are going to sponsor a girl who has a lot of followers on tiktok because they know that

i'll get them out there so especially in america rugby's just not big and we'll go to other countries like we're going to south africa for the world cup and you're a star there rugby players the stars there but here like we're my team and i walk down the street they have no idea who we are so i don't think it's kind of interesting now i'm thinking about it it's like we're not getting sponsored because we're rugby players you're getting sponsored because of a social media presence does that make you feel bitter at all I don't know if it's bitter it's just like I think at times you're just think man you work so hard and like especially for rugby like we put our bodies on the line. We get tackled. We're on the ground. We're getting up. And it hurts a lot.

And, like, I just feel bad because we do so much on field. But, like, that's not translating to more money. Or it's just kind of like you just kind of plateau. So that's why I call my, you know, doing TikTok my other job. Because it is. Yeah. you know, doing TikTok my other job because it is. Yeah. That's why we're like trying to make it so that these girls can just focus on rugby and make money and not have to do all sorts of different income sources, you know? Right. Well, and I think about the fact that, to be

honest with you, I probably wouldn't have known your name had I not come across you on TikTok. 100%. Right. And so I have friends in the UK who, yeah, played rugby, love rugby. I think, yeah, specifically in the United States, that's, you know, more of a niche sport. But it, you know, it's no less significant than everything else. Yes. At the Olympics. And I just, yeah, I just feel like that's that sucks so hard for you to like work so hard and be like, I mean feel like anybody listening there was probably somebody you know who had that in their life where oh the thing I'm really passionate about is not the thing that makes me money I think we've all had that experience at some point right the thing I love the thing I spend the most

time doing the thing that I'm good at the thing that I've put so much time and effort into is not the thing that's actually paying the bills and like that sucks it does suck because it's like as you're doing it's like why am i doing this like to do and do it for such a little amount i i am one of the more higher paid just for rugby on my team because like there's like you know tears and we get paid through a certain amount so like i am one of those who make the more money just from the rugby. Can you talk to me through I didn't know there were tiers? Like, how does that work? So we get paid through like the Olympic Committee. And so on my team, there's people who have full contracts. So we get paid, you know, not not anything wild, you get like a monthly thing each month before taxes, it's no tax they're taking out so

we're all independent contractors so when tax season comes around you want to shoot yourself in the foot right you own your own business as a as a olympic athlete so i there's like tears like people who are like on the top tier like we are the ones who like we get paid the most we have we don't live on we don't have anything paid for we don't have our housing paid for why not we we find our own housing in san diego which is i think the most expensive city to live in in the u.s right now definitely top five definitely top five yeah um and then there's like another tier people who are a little bit below that like a tier below that and then there's like some girls who live in housing that the rugby team provides and they get like a

smaller stipend every month and so like what people are doing is like, you're trying to make your way up those tiers by becoming that player who like gets invited to every tournament, who's kind of a really valuable part of the team. And that was like, that's my thing is like, I want to be at every tournament. I want to play in every game and I want to be the best I can be.

Whether that's being the best player in the world or just being the best person for my team. So I've moved up pretty much when I came in. I lived on site, in housing, then moved up to a bigger contract, then was moved up to a bigger contract, and now I'm at the highest contract. So it's all just kind of like you want to keep fighting for that spot to get up. But then it's already filled with some girls. So you can only move as far, but are you going to move some girls down? So it's really an interesting time because it's all about performance it's all about how well you're playing and so if you know something but if something happens thankfully we have longer

contracts now they go for like a year or they can go for a longer time they used to be like for three months so if you weren't if they posted it like you after three months you know injured and thankfully that's why it's great to have contracts that are of a longer period of time so then nothing changes at that i mean i have to say you're still injured through your contract ending i think it's gonna go back to like who you are as a player and how you're looking on your recovery journey because we have the best trainer in the world. Like our trainer is the best. So if you work with her, they'll put you back on the field and just remembering who you are before

your injury, because we play a sport where injuries are just really prevalent. Yeah. I, what was it? I studied abroad in Ireland. do you know about hurling yeah yeah i don't know you can probably describe it better than i can it was like rugby but somehow more violent they use wooden paddles it's insane i've never seen this before

it was like rugby mixed with lacrosse mixed with i don't even fucking know they probably carded i only stayed for like half a game maybe three quarters they carded half the players off the field due to injuries i could not believe it i was like how is this legal it was the most violent thing i've ever seen in my life it was incredible to watch but yeah and i think about the injuries of something like that constant yeah and that's again like we do this because we just absolutely love it and like this is what we want to be doing yeah so you play outside of the olympics are you paid a salary for that any perks that are paid out for playing out of that no so for the olympics you get paid if you medal at the olympics i think the gold is something like you only wait you only get paid if you medal yeah

what so I think a medal is like 30 something yeah gold is 30 something silver's 20 something bronze is like 15 or something like that you only get paid if you medal that somehow makes every every Olympic like close call so much more painful. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think about all the people who didn't get on the podium or all the people who got silver, like barely like, oh, yeah, it's wild. And for the U.S., the thing is, the U.S. sends, I think, the most athletes of any delegation. So we have so many athletes.

That's why like Americaica's like win gold or nothing freaking suck if you don't win gold you know like but that's because it is a lot on the line and like we don't get paid as much as some countries do which i've seen a lot of people like people in the philippines get a million dollars if they win gold well to me it's like it's very different because there's only like really one i think only one athlete in like the last olympics from the philippines won a medal whereas the united states like we are pumping out medal winners and so it's definitely wild but like and it is a great way to give you motivation to win that money but i am honestly it's really cool to say that i'm not motivated by money at all for this sport because I mean I get to travel

the world and like do the coolest things like I'd rather be doing that and getting paid not much than sitting in a desk and not getting to go and be outside train work on my fitness constantly so a lot of trade trade-ups you gotta do yeah well's not, yeah. I'm realizing just how much of it is paid on performance. Even to like your rank on the team to how much are you getting paid if you medal versus if you don't versus like gold versus silver versus like, that's insane. Crazy. You've already talked about this. We publicly know, especially like the soccer teams for men and women are men paid different

than women. Are they paid on a different scale? What does that look like? Break that down for us. So on our team through the U S Olympic committee, they are, I think we're paid the same. We have like the same kind of tier system. The difference is, is that the men have more opportunities to make more money because they have more tournaments. So we only next year, we're going to have like seven tournaments. They're going to have something wild, like 11.

So that means they have three or four more, four more times to make possibly $5,000 each if they win first. And then they, so 20, 20 K more potentially. Potentially, yeah. So they get... And then you get like a bonus for going to it.

Like just a bonus if you're selected for the tournament. And then if you win, if you place one to five, you get a certain amount of money through that tournament. So like, I think we all get paid the same just by our base. But because of their... They're getting so much more opportunities to make money and go play so whereas we're missing out on that five hundred dollars just for selection fee or whatever it is they can go out and try for that five thousand yeah oh i talked about like i

mentioned primetime sports do you feel like if you played a more quote-unquote feminine sport you would be better compensated i don't know honestly i think it's really not even about that it's like how well these sports are marketing themselves and putting them out there and especially how are they winning the u.s soccer team is so great in that they're getting people to come watch their sports if you watch like this documentary on them i think they're called the 99ers i've watched that a couple times but they there's the one on hbo what is it lfg let's fucking go yeah i think on hbo max yeah yes i've seen that one and then there's another one too like early on about like how in the 99 how they like grew you rug soccer i think for me to grow a sport like that that not really even

about femininity is that like you need to win and in in U.S. the U.S. culture we like winning we like gold so to get your sport on the map you have to be a winning team and that's something that I I've realized like it doesn't matter if we're the best people if we're great players if we're not winning people don't care especially in the U.s so no you're so right because i think about yeah like megan rapino and all these players i think the reason their case was so strong is it wasn't just like we're under paid which should have been enough to get pay equality it was like we're underpaid and we are way better than the man's team like we consistently win so it yeah it's like not enough to just have the on par right it's the always like you can't just be good you have to be five

ten times better right so like it should have just been enough of hi we're not compensated at the same rate that they are but specifically we're not compensated at the same rate and we're way fucking better yes so that's it it's like men will get paid regardless we need to be the best players the prettiest the most well-spoken the most attractive and then we'll get paid what we are deserving so like it's kind of this like very hard time but playing a sport that we didn't grow up playing so we're not we don't think it we don't aren't as good as it but like we want the sport to grow so we have to win so it's that extra pressure on us so you got to win to make money yeah does that ever get to you i get very stressed sometimes

when i'm like oh gosh we're gonna if we don't if we don't start winning consistently they'll pull off pull our funding or if we don't qualify for the olympics like this program could be shut down like it scares me all the time because, and not as, again, not only for myself, but for those other girls, who I want them to have a chance to do this and to be able to be a professional rugby player in the US. And the thought of it, it feels on my shoulders

to like make sure this program continues and that, you know, we, I want us to medal so bad at like the World Cup and the Olympics so that it can show us that, okay, these girls are deserving of continuing to be sponsored. Yeah. And I think, yeah,

it's, it's like the pressure of not just how am I performing, but how is my performance affecting everybody else and affecting the perception of this sport nationally and globally. And then the added pressure of I'm trying to pave a way for future girls or future women athletes so that they don't necessarily have to go through all of this. That's a lot. A lot. A lot of pressure. Yeah. Well, and with TikTok, how are you finding the balance of that? How are you making that something that's sustainable with playing rugby

at a professional level I think of it just as another job for myself like people are I was just made to be ironic people I was asking like oh how do you grow on TikTok how do you do this like well first off be funny and then second you have to think of it as like you have to put in the time to do it because it's not just something that you can post one TikTok and you'll get like you have to do it and three to five videos a day three to five yeah and like you need to be you need to be on the app you need to be finding trends you need to be doing all the stuff like my teammates used to kind of make fun of me for the TikTok like oh look at Lo making TikToks and they're like oh wait a second she's making money yep that was the same thing with me it was like oh you're giving financial advice on tiktok it's still kind of this thing of like

it's not legitimate like people don't see me i think as more legitimate and i was like yeah but the amount of money i've made on tiktok blows everything else out of the water and it's the reason we have a successful podcast and it's the reason i have a book deal it's the reason i have all of these things for sure and it's just like i just think of these things. For sure. And it's just like, I just think of it as I don't I love it, too. I like being on TikTok. I like bringing my personality to life on there. But it is work. And I think people are realizing that now like how much work I put into it. And I mean, you can make fun of me all you want for my TikTok. But I just signed this deal. So are like, I work with with like some makeup brands and I'll wear like

lipstick during practice. And like, why are you wearing lipstick? And I'm like, if only you knew, if only you knew. You're like, cause I just got paid a lot of money to do it. So yeah. Yeah. And I think, yeah, it's something that I think people are finally seeing as more legitimate. And then when you start realizing the, for me, that like, financial advice on TikTok is like meeting people where they are. Okay, if they're on TikTok, and they need this info, then I should, I may as well be on TikTok, especially since that's my target demo. I'm not going to go spend a bunch of time on LinkedIn. I'm not going to go spend a ton of time on Reddit. Like, that's not where my audience is. They're on TikTok. And if, you know, they're already there for, I don't know, dance videos

or whatever, you know, they can be there for financial advice too. In terms of making money and figuring out brand deals, like how do you go about that? I think like one thing that I do on TikTok or one thing I've always done is really undervalue myself. Like I, when people are like, oh, what's your race race like for the beginning time there I was like oh you know I yeah I'll do a TikTok I can do an Instagram a TikTok and I'll do Instagram stories for five thousand dollars all of that for five thousand dollars and like to me I was like that's a lot I shouldn't ask too much of these companies they may say no and then that's been a very interesting time of like people having to tell me like stop undervaluing yourself you are worth so

much more than that and I'm like ah I don't know I don't know if I am I don't want it I want to impose you are you are I'm still learning I'm still learning I have literally become the person in the past two years because a bunch of people have blown up who have never done this before who have never negotiated who you know don't know how't know how to talk to a brand. I've become the resident person that gets the DMs. People will slide my DMs and be like, hi, I have 3 million followers and this brand wants to pay me 500. Is that good? And I'm like, no, no, it's not. But there's no sort of transparency. Now, there's companies out there that are starting to build like the glass door for influencers. But like, I think we're still a long ways off to where that's actually information that

is useful and super helpful at like a larger level. But I think that that's the huge thing where no one knows what they should be charging. And in addition, most content creators, most influencers are women who we've been conditioned to just be grateful and not ask for more money. And then companies have been like, oh, why is she asking for more? That's crazy and ridiculous. She doesn't just want free product. That's weird. She can't pay her. She can't pay her rent and exposure. That makes sense. I just said now when like everyone, I get all these like,

Oh, free product. Do you want to most make dinner for people? I kind of like, Oh, thanks so much. I actually don't do that. I will totally do this for this amount.

And what's been really great is I actually have an agent now who I work with who she's a woman. I was working with a male agent and I didn't like the way he kind of talked with me. And I realized I want someone who's going to represent me in a boardroom with a company, like the way he kind of talked with me and I realized I want someone who's going to represent me in a boardroom with a company like who actually is kind of like who I vibe with who's something like me as well so I work with this woman who she does all my kind of negotiating with companies out and what she's able how she's able to word it

is something I would never say like or is she like oh man I can't wait to create this last partnership with you alone I is so excited to oh man I can't wait to create this lasting partnership with you Alona is so excited to work with you can we move it to this much money to continue because she's a female athlete like the way that she says things I'm like oh my gosh you're so right like I just I love her and I love how she's like able to get me more money because I that's something I would do I'd be like okay well Okay, well, let me offer like 6000 for this no offer them. Say you'll do it for 13. If they come back with nine, say you'll do it for, you know, 1112. So that's been very tough for me. Because one thing my sisters who are also my sisters helped me a lot. And they also want me to, you know, value myself is that I'm not just

a tick tocker. I'm an Olympian too. So that I think you, I like, okay. Yes. Companies want your ticker, but you're so much more than that. It's the credibility. It's the credibility. Yeah. It's the, it's the logo behind it of yeah. Olympic athlete. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I think the two things that I tell anybody who's negotiating anything, whether that's, you know, you're at your nine to five, you're an entrepreneur, always ask them what their budget is first. Because the amount of times like I have gotten myself, especially early in my career, when I didn't do that, I would ask for, you know, let's say $5,000 and then find out, oh, actually I could have gotten 10 or I could have gotten 20, you know? So what is your budget is like magic. And it's also helpful when people go,

oh, we don't have a budget because they have to say, we want you to work for free. If you go, oh, I'm I sounds like a great product sounds like a really exciting opportunity. What's your budget? And then they go, um, I don't have a budget. And then it's like, yeah, you sound stupid. Don't you don't you think you sound stupid? And then I think the second thing to your point about like, the credibility is that it's so much not just about your influence and about your follower count. It's about the amount of time it's taking you to create this content. You're basically a one person marketing agency. You're the one person who's writing and posting and engaging with that content and doing potential reshoots and coming up with a concept. And like you are a one person or if you have a team, you know, you are a marketing agency as an influencer, as a content creator.

In addition to the credibility and the followers and all of the clout, you know, that you talking about this product on your platform gives you. And I just wish more people thought of it like that and the agent thing is interesting too yeah because i get most of my deals come directly to me right now so like first like why do i need an agent like everything i'm getting is coming to me so i want to keep all the money which is great but i then i'm not getting as much money as I could be getting. So that my agent now, like she's getting me so much more money than I would get. Yes, I have to give her some of that, but like creating this partnership together has just been great. And like, just, I think shows like having someone who knows what your value is when you don't is just will up your

game so much more. And you're rarely powerful when you're having somebody else negotiate on behalf of you. It almost like you know, you like are one step removed from it. Yeah, I won't be on the call. But my agent will. I'm really busy right now. Exactly, exactly. My admin manager, like there's something about that, right. And I've also heard I've actually tried this a little bit is having folks uh email on behalf of you and then using a male name I've had so many people who have done that and like gotten better results when it's Scott emailing as opposed to so I know actually or whatever you know it drives me crazy um okay so you have your BSN you have have your MBA. Is that the plan once you've retired from the sport?

It always was the plan to go into nursing. And then with the BSN or with the MBA, it's now like, okay, to be a chief nursing officer or to have a really high position. And maybe not even in nursing, just be in business in some way. But it's been definitely an interesting change up now with the influencer content creator, like how many different paths you can take with that as well so that's been something but for me like I want to play rugby for as long as I can and I'm definitely going for Paris 2024 which is the next Olympics and then you know after that there's the Olympics is in LA in 2028 and like to play in a home Olympics like that is something that I might sacrifice my body for to play out there in LA so that's something I'm also thinking about but

definitely taking some time off I would love to actually take like a time off to focus a little bit more on the content creator side and what I could actually do if I literally could do it 24 set like as just my, because I think maybe I could grow a little bit, really focus on that. But it's also a very scary time because being content created from what I know from some of my friends on TikTok and whatnot, it's like, you don't really know

what your income is going to be. Whereas I do still have the income from rugby. So I do know I'm going to get that. But with the TikTok, it's like, hopefully I get an email from this company and they want to pay me, you know? So that's a very stressful time. But I have a lot of things I want to do.

And now with this platform, I really think I can do it. I think about other Olympic athletes who like went on to commentate. Is that a thing for rugby? Definitely a lot of opportunities to commentate. But like, that's what I think is kind of interesting is like a lot of people try to take that route because that's like one of the few ways you can really stay in rugby is by being commentator so like everyone tries to slightly get into that realm and i and i would love to be a spokesperson for something for more rugby one thing i am doing i actually want to talk to you about is like i'm writing a book myself i was like sat down on

saturday night and i was like let me just i was right so i'm too and then i realized like because i always thought i didn't have enough to tell and then you start writing you're like you know what i do and i have a lot that i want to share and like I want to be very real in the book I'm just being very real and like truly just speaking from who I am so like I'd love to get that out there it's not going to be a very inspirational book I'm just trying to be as real as possible but that's a certain niche that'll yeah but that'll work great right because everybody's read those books already like we don't need another one of those books no and I think especially having any sort of social media audience is again I was talking about Queen Herbie of like you don't get played on the radio unless

you blow yourself up on TikTok first it's very similar with a lot of like book and podcast deals of it's a lot easier to get deals and to create shows or other things that are successful if you already have a social media following. Like way easier because it's less risk. It's just like, you know, you asking for a loan, right? You go into the bank and you're like, hi, I would like money. And they're like, what's your credit score, right? Because they're looking at like, how responsible are you? How are we going to get our money back? It's very similar with a book deal because you're presenting like, hi, you're going to give me all this money up front and then I'm going to write this book that hopefully sells

a lot easier to guarantee that if you have an audience of people who you know will read it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm really excited. I've been talking with my agent, but I think also my agent, like we don't really know how to go about it.

But like, I want to figure that out sometime and like see what I can do because it's it's very cathartic at times writing as well so we'll see if I maybe next year I don't know a couple last questions for you what misconceptions about being a woman athlete in rugby do you wish you could clear up? I think for me, and this goes back to a hashtag that I have, hashtag BeastBeautyBrains is my hashtag. And I feel as though they put a lot of athletes in a box. As I already talked about, they put us in a box as like, we're masculine and we don't care about anything. put us in a box as like we're masculine and we're but we don't care about anything and but i want to be known like i the most beautiful people i know the funniest the smartest people i know are athletes so we're not just you know great at a sports you know we're not like dumb and just play

sports like we have so much more about us yeah and being coming from a sport like rugby where everyone's like oh you're you must be a lesbian oh you're all this that they just come in with these stereotypes about you it's like rugby players are so diverse and we're so different we have so much about us that are it's more than just being a rugby player so that's why like i love to be a beast on a field but i'll also wear lipstick at practice i'm very smart I've gotten my MBA so I just don't like being put in a box you know they do that with any female athlete any soccer player you know uh tennis player so athletes that's just a small smallest part of who we are yeah and the stereotype of what people expect you to be based on yeah the the idea that they

have in their heads I feel like yeah whether you're an athlete or not women are constantly expected to be one thing you know what do you hope moving forward for women in athletics I mean for myself for my teammates just to have a sustainable career that it can be a career and that they can live comfortably especially in those niche sports where they can't make it i think allison phillips is doing a good job also with being able to have a child and still play sports that hasn't really been done on my team before we haven't had anyone anyone's had a child it's been a very tough time or like people have like quit because they've had childs or they've like had the child and haven't come back from it so that is something like that's i would love to have a kid just to show people like

no you can do this i look at the men's team and some of these men's players have three kids and they can just do what they want to do whereas us like women we can't really do that you couldn't have three kids and do what we do well and just beyond you know the the actual parenting of a child the physical expectation or the physical commitment to having children alters your body in a way that you can't really come back from just rip your abs in half you know yeah right well and even if you have like a relatively you know traumatic free pregnancy like you're still you're literally birthing another person so literally right right yeah so i think i i hope that too i hope that you're able to yeah to to celebrate all of the things you want to do as you know a woman while also being able to be an

athlete you know and having having both of those things or all of those things thank you for being here where can people find you and connect with you thank you um on tiktok as you know they may have heard or not i do a little on tiktok uh it's addy lonamar and then i do instagram of course addy lonamar as well i sometimes say funny things on twitter but not often. And then I think one thing is just like, if you can check out rugby whenever we play. Sometimes it's hard to watch, but if there's a rugby game on, check it out.

If we're playing a tournament, tune in if you can. Like I think if more people got to see what this sport is like, they'd be like, this is cool. And I'll keep doing my thing. The Olympics is in two years, so maybe I'll do a little bit there as well. I love it. Thanks for being here.

Thank you so much. It's great. Thank you once again to Alona for joining us for today's episode. We had this conversation almost six months ago. And since then, she has launched an incredible merch line in which all proceeds benefit Girls Rugby Inc., which works to empower more girls to see themselves as leaders and to help them build the confidence they need to thrive on and off the field, all while learning the game of rugby. So make sure to check out her website or donate directly to Girls Rugby Inc. Thanks again for listening to today's episode. I'm so happy to be back. I'm so happy to see y'all's faces.

And we can't wait to see you soon. Talk to you later, Financial Feminist. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist. Dumas, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, and Amanda LeFue. Research by Arielle Johnson, audio engineering by Austin Fields, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com or follow us on Instagram at financialfeministpodcast.