Financial Feminist - 83. Managing Finances with a Disability with Xian Horn

Episode Date: April 18, 2023

It’s estimated that 54 million people in the United States have a disability –– so how does this impact them financially and an individual level, and all of us, regardless of disability status as a societal level? Tori is joined by Xian Horn, a disability advocate, writer, and founder of the non-profit, Give Beauty Wings, to talk about the financial challenges facing people with disabilities. They discuss the practical ways this manifests in day-to-day life, like transportation and lower pay, but also the ways the social safety nets for people with disabilities are woefully lacking, and how we can advocate for people with disabilities both in our communities, at work, and federally. Learn more about today’s guest, our sponsors, read show notes and transcript and so much more: https://herfirst100k.com/start-here-financial-feminist-podcast Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, financial feminists. Welcome back to the show. Some housekeeping before we get into our incredible guests. If you're enjoying the show, make sure you're subscribed on your preferred podcasting platform, wherever you're listening right now. And if that's Spotify, we're using their new audience interaction tools. So you can just do a little swipe and you can see the prompt for this episode. We'd love to know your thoughts, love to hear what you're thinking. It's also really great to hear from you. We do voicemails on this show. So if you have a question, comment, concern, if you are trying to navigate paying off debt or saving money, you can send us a voicemail and we would love to use it on the show.

You can also follow Financial Feminist on Instagram at Financial Feminist Podcast. We also, of course, are at Her First 100K on all of the socials for additional free financial information. Okay, let's talk about today's guests. We are joined by Sean Horn, who, as I mentioned in the interview, actually interviewed me for a wonderful piece in Forbes that released earlier this year. Sean Horn is a joyful half-Asian woman with cerebral palsy. Sean lends her expertise to ensure that corporations and cultural institutions operate with inclusivity and are at the forefront of innovation.

Sean served as an ongoing partner and advisor on the AT&T Accessibility Advisory Panel on Access and Aging, AAPAA, from 2018 to 2022, Cooper Hewitt's Accessibility Advisory Board, New York Women's Foundation, Emerging Women's Network, and Open Style Lab at Parsons. She has consulted and spoken at companies and cultural institutions such as NBCUniversal, Target, Amazon, Zappos, Microsoft, the UN, and the Whitney Museum, among others. Her nonprofit, Give Beauty Wings, is focused on the empowerment of all people with disabilities and fostering inclusive leadership. We brought Sean on to talk about the realities of disability and its effect on people's finances. And we wanted

to dive in beyond the obvious and discuss what life looks like on a day-to-day basis for someone with a disability to understand what programs exist to support the disability community and where that support is really fucking inadequate. Sean really is an absolute joy. We had a lot of fun. It was a little chaotic recording this episode in the best way possible. And I know that everyone is going to get something from this episode. We've also linked to some additional resources provided by Sean and her team in our show notes. So let's get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors. thanks for interviewing me for forbes that was so kind you did a hell of a write-up on us so thank you i only speak the truth and you're really easy to write about,

honestly. Thank you. That makes my heart happy. I appreciate it. We're so excited to have you here. We're so excited to talk to you about the impact that disabilities have not only, of course, on our finances, but our lives and our society. So tell our audience a little bit about your backstory. How did you become an advocate in the disability community? Well, it's so funny because my entire life, so I was born with cerebral palsy and I considered the blessing of my life. But I was just telling someone earlier that, you know, I think when I was growing up, there was a lot of expectation that if you were different, you were the one that had to be

scrappy and creative. And it was your job to make everybody feel comfortable. I think now with social media and more awareness, there's more of a sense of, you know, if I'm here, it's your job to welcome me. school, kids would say to me, oh, but Sean, you're normal, right? They weren't trying to make some grand statement about what is normal. They were just asking if it was okay to talk to me. And of course, my answer was always yes, because I knew they were just asking for permission to connect with me. And so I would love having those first five minutes of conversation so that we could get to the point of like playing My Little Pony and just being kids. Right. But I think for me, I was never my intention to become an advocate because I felt, you know, I traversed the world with two ski poles and I felt very visible as it was. And so I think that early on, it was more about making sure that people knew I

was just like that a lot of ways. And I am, but I'm not. Like, I think the advocacy journey that I've had, it's more about celebrating how we're different and owning that. And I was like a fearless kid, but I think a lot of my survival mechanisms were in just, you know, trying to connect with people and making sure that any barriers to connection were out of the picture if possible. And so I think, you know, for a long time,

I resisted the idea of becoming a disability advocate because I thought that was the obvious thing to do and what everybody expected of me. And the part of me that's a rebel, I think really kind of didn't like the idea of advocating just because people told me to. And it wasn't until my second job ever, where I was a grant writer for a theater in New York, 45 members total, 15 with disabilities,

where it seemed to reflect the real world to me. It was so diverse racially, in terms of sexuality, it seemed to represent the real world. And I was never really comfortable in disability-only spaces at that time. Now I really relish that. I relish all the spaces I get to inhabit. But I think, you know, for me, it was more important. I understood what this theater was trying to do, which was give voice to all marginalized communities. And that's essentially what I try to do in the work that I'm doing now. But so I was a grant writer for this theater. And I try to do in the work that I'm doing now. But so I was a grant writer for this theater. And I noticed that a lot of I mean, these were actors, studio actors, Kennedy Center award winning playwrights, writing about suicide attempts and how much they hated their body. And I thought,

these are my heroes. Like, if these are the people I look up to, and this is how they're doing, how's everybody else doing? So I knew I wanted to have positive dialogue about how I saw them, but also, especially around disability, I think it really shocked me because I'm an only child. I was raised by artist parents who told me uniqueness was best. And I think they were more concerned if I was like everybody else than the other way around. So I didn't really have, and I know it sounds strange because this is not the typical disability experience, but the one area of my life that I had unshakable confidence was my disability. It's the one area you couldn't touch. You could say anything to me about my disability. And I would still say, smile, smile and thank you. And moving on next, like, because

that was the one area where I knew what it was for me. I knew I cut the lines at Disney World. I knew that, you know, walking around with two ski poles, people didn't forget me. And so I was always focused on all the things that it brought into my life. But I think I really thank my parents for giving me that. And that was also part of why I didn't necessarily want to become an advocate at first, because I thought the stereotype of being sort of an angry activist didn't. I mean, there's plenty of things that get me going. I'm not saying that, you know, especially now I'm much more aware, I think, of the things that we still have. I mean, the barriers that we still face.

But I think I was very much oblivious to that when I was younger, and more focused on the people I got to meet every day. You know, I had a cab driver say to me once, you know, I had you 10 years ago. It's great to see you again. And I thought about the hundreds of thousands of people he must have met in 10 years, and he still remembered me. So those are the things that I hold on to. And it took me a long time to realize, you know, that people's lives depended on this work. And so for me, it wasn't until I realized that I was really not, this is not about, our stories are not about us, you know, Tori. And I think that's what I love about your story too, is that you're really candid and it allows other women and people listening to you to really put themselves and their stories and what they need and ask the right questions.

But basically what happened is I ended up pitching the Dove campaign, asking them to include people with disabilities in their advertising. Because one of the things when I was working for this theater that I really was thinking about is I would love to talk to kids and parents. I really was thinking about is I would love to talk to kids and parents because I realized how early our traumas can begin in terms of, you know, identity things. And, and I think that our parents, you know, are their hopes and dreams, but also their anxieties and fears can be projected onto their children. And so I wanted to get to parents and kids as soon as possible, because I realized that, you know, I didn't think the way I grew up was revolutionary until I started to pay attention to what other people were experiencing. I wanted to be a ballerina. My parents just got me a ballerina costume for

Halloween. They never said, Sean, we need to talk about other career options, or that's never going to happen. You know, they only just wanted me to be the happiest version of myself that I could possibly be. And I would say that, you know, where I got into trouble was more around high school when, you know, that bubble that they created for me kind of burst. That was also my own doing because I was such a I love people so much and I was a bit of a people pleaser. And so I think this is something that, you know, a lot of women can relate to when you're raised as like a good girl. It's funny because my mom is such a like fearless, like outspoken Asian woman. And then at the same time, like if I'm in a situation where I have to

negotiate a contract or stand up for myself, even today, my mom will go, Sean, that's not very nice. And I'm like, wait a minute. They were trying to screw me over, mom. What do you want me to do? I actually thought you'd be proud of me because I'm channeling you. We'll get into that later, I'm sure. But I just, I'm really grateful for at least the springboard that my parents gave me. And I want to be that love and support for others that you don't have control over whether you have great school systems or the right parents. So I want to be that support system for others who may not have had that.

Do you feel like if as somebody with a physical disability, you felt a certain pressure to be like an advocate or an activist? i think i've talked to a lot of like people of color in my life who are like just inherently like there's this expectation of i am here to like represent and to advocate for like black or brown people and i have i actually had an ex-boyfriend who still had cerebral palsy and we talked a little bit about this and like like what did you do you feel that pressure of like oh i have a physical disability i i have to be someone who's outspoken about it well i always felt kind of annoyed that people wanted to make me a poster child i'm like right in my life i felt the best way i could advocate was by being the happiest

version of myself right but what i realized when I saw that my contemporaries were suffering was that that wasn't enough and that we needed to have really comprehensive dialogue around self-esteem for everybody, but especially uplifting all marginalized communities. And so I definitely resisted that. I remember in high school, my PT was like, oh, Sean, you should join Disability Teen USA. We're going to climb stairs and go to baseball games. And I was like, Oh, Sean, you should join Disability Teen USA, we're going to climb stairs and go to baseball games. And I was like, I do that stuff already. Like, I don't understand. I really I was very resistant to it, because I just thought it was the obvious thing to do. And then but once I had a mission and a reason, once I realized that people's lives depended on

some of this work, that really is I was the most stage fright in person you could possibly imagine, Tori. And as someone I know who has theater background, maybe you didn't have stage fright, but I certainly did. And the thing that got me over it was realizing that it wasn't about me. I always joke, I hate being the center of attention. It's awful.

So like, wasn't a lot of stage fright, but also I think, yeah, there was, I had parents who were like okay we want to go to the theater route cool and i i forget sometimes that your background was in theater as well so it makes me really happy oh well no i mean i actually i performed once for three weeks that's my extent of oh but you were working at a theater right which is i was a great writer yeah my first dream was to be a writer so So I totally understood, you know, that goal you had as a child made me so happy because it's still something I'm working on all this time.

I've been a writer and I still haven't published a book yet. So that's on the docket for this spring to work on. I mean, I'm sure I told you in the interview, like it's the hardest thing I've ever done professionally and like worth it. But like, oh, gosh, it was so much work. So thrilled for you. Thank you. I appreciate that.

We know from, of course, research, from discussions, from community members, from a lot of our team, that disability comes with, of course, additional expenses such as medical care. But what are some surprising costs of disability that our listeners might not know about? Yeah, well, when it comes to employment, transportation is a huge one. I mean, if you can't guarantee to your boss, you know, with paratransit, the way traditional paratransit works, you have to call one to two days in advance before 5pm to get someone on the line who will then give you a pickup time, which could be two hours earlier than you need to be there. But you've got

to take it because, you know, it's the same price as the subway. But I mean, the cost in terms of your time and stress, you know, they might show up an hour early, an hour late. And whenever they show up, you have a five minute window to get there. And how can you possibly take, or at least I didn't find it really realistic to take a nine to five job where you have to be in office every day when you have those kinds of, you know, you have to the government or it's controlled by somebody else. So there's a real lack of autonomy in a lot of the traditional options available for people with disabilities. So I think that's also something that a lot of people don't realize is that money looks very different for the disabled community. And it usually is in somebody else's hands or under somebody else's jurisdiction. So, you know, just to be able to talk about this in terms of a form of independence and respect is really incredibly important. I think the biggest cost is sort of what I was talking to you about

in terms of, I want to do a workshop called Negotiating Your Worth because I find that I grew up and I think part of it, too, was the schools I went to. You know, I went to Wesleyan where, you know, if you if you made money doing something you love, it was no longer pure and corporations were the man. And I think, you know, obviously that's changed, I think, in the last five to 10 years. I think there's more corporate responsibility than there's ever been. And I have actually had wonderful experiences with corporations so far. But I think that in a lot of ways, I had guilt around money. I had and I mean, I know you talk about money, shame and trauma and all that so much. No, but it's extremely common, right? Like this feeling

of guilt at participating in a system that like is inherently inequitable. Like that's probably the biggest thing we hear just other than like the personal shame and judgment. It's like, how do I, of course, navigate the system to the best of my ability while also being like, it's fucked up. Like, how do I do that? Yeah. But the other thing is when you've worked so hard to get into that room, there's this sense, you know, like, if you can't even get there, like talking about transportation, or you don't even know, or you're not invited people when you are there, like, well, you should just be happier in the room. And so there's this sense of I think I used to have this fear of losing an

opportunity. And now actually the most freeing thing is being able to say, no, I get to choose. You know, I think this expectation for people with disabilities in particular is that they're just going to work for free because they should just be happy we asked them to the table. Which is ridiculous. And I wrote a couple things down too. I mean, I don't know if you know about Sheltered Workshop Story. Sheltered Workshops were created back in World War II, at the end of World War II, when there were all these veterans who couldn't get jobs and people who were newly disabled that no one wanted to hire. And it was a really good thing

back then because it was, you know, addressing this issue. But it basically allowed companies to underpay people with disabilities so they would get less than minimum wage. To this day, it's still happening. It's actually legal in certain cases to pay people with disabilities like four or five dollars an hour. I mean, crazy that it's still happening today. So what was a, I think, a good mitzvah, you know, in the 40s doesn't hold up today, you know. And when, I mean, and when that's the messaging that we're getting, that our work has less value, you can imagine that that's even bigger than money because that becomes about your self-worth also. And so for me, it was a big deal to get to a point where I was able to say like, oh, you know, I want to be able to choose what I do for free. And I definitely, you know, want to still volunteer at times, but the work I do has value and, and our stories have value and, and our expertise has value. And that should be obvious, I would hope, you know, sadly, I've had to advocate far more than a lot of my counterparts, whether it was

on behalf of someone else or myself. And that really does get to me, like, the fact that we're still here at this point. And that's why I'm so passionate about doing this work is that, you know, the Judy humans of the world, Judy human is the reason that we have 504, which led to the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act. And she was a dear friend of mine. And if she had not put her body in front of Madison Avenue city buses, and if she had not crawled up Capitol steps, I wouldn't have been able to say that my disability was a blessing and that I could cut the lines at Disney World and all the things that I, you know, part of the reason I was able to do that is because of all the sacrifices she made. But I think there is a misconception that we're done. We're just getting started. And when it comes to money, if you think of, and I mean, also why I was so excited to be on your podcast, to be honest, from the intersectional standpoint, you know, as an Asian woman with a disability, you can imagine like the Asian culture, we could do a whole podcast just on that. I had a mom that

when I was embarrassed to do it would be like, my daughter needs to come through and she would cut the line for me. And I'd be so embarrassed. And I'd be like, Oh, mom, you know, because she was making a scene. But I'm so grateful that I have a mom who never apologized for the space she took up, you know, and and what a gift that is. And also, my parents didn't plan on being the parents to a person with a disability. They didn't plan it. They didn't get training on it. In fact, I don't know if this was a good thing, but my dad refused grief counseling. He said, we're just going to raise her the best we can. You know what I mean? And for him, I think it was just about making sure that I felt comfortable and happy wherever I was. And I have the privilege of having had gone to the

best public schools here, the best doctors in New York. You know, even being in New York is a privilege just for some of the access to care that I was able to get. And I'm just grateful that I had parents that used their voice before I knew how to use mine, because that allowed me to really fly and to be as successful as I could be at an early age. But I think even with that, there's so much internalized, like, oh, I, you know, feeling like, oh, do I deserve this, right? Especially career wise, I think I was so afraid to ask for what I was worth. And then basically, I had a few corporate gigs during the pandemic. So this is really recent. Like, I feel like I'm only really getting paid what I should have gotten

paid the last three years and had to realize that I was basically underpaid for like seven, you know? So this is why I think it's important to talk about this. Cause if this is what I'm going through and, you know, I'm kind of considered, I guess, a success story, and, you know, I'm kind of considered, I guess, a success story. Then I, you know, I want to also do this on behalf of those coming behind me who are starting out and want to know that they're going to, for me, it's not about money, it's about respect, but that people are going to feel respected when they are asked to do things, that it's not an expectation that they just should be so grateful that was incredibly insightful and yeah i um there's so much work that like it's similar to

how i feel of course about women's rights we like, so much progress has been made. And also, we are so far from done. Like, we are so far from done. Can you tell me what financial advice you've received that just doesn't make sense for someone with a disability? Oh, that's a really good question. Well, I will tell you the advice that I received that it was true for my mom it ended up being true for me but I definitely don't think applies to everyone my mom always said do what you love and the money will follow and I think that when you come from multiple marginalized identities

or even just one it's not that simple you could what you do, but if you don't have the right leadership or someone that's going to advocate for you. I mean, I think I told you this when we spoke about your Forbes article, that it wasn't until I worked with a corporation that one of my good friends actually did research to find out what the last guy got paid. And I realized that he was getting getting paid 20,000 more than what I planned to pitch them. And so I had to up my number. And I'm so grateful that I think that's where allyship and even just people who believe in you are so critical. You know, even this theater experience I had was because my boss believed I could perform. I don't, I didn't believe it at the time. You know what I mean? Or, or like even these classes that I, I, I didn't even mention this. I really started out running a six week workshop through NYU's initiative for women with

disabilities. And the way that happened was I was assisting, uh, the theater I was a part of did something called true story Project. So I was assisting in the class to help the girls tell their stories. And then the main teacher couldn't do it anymore. And she said, well, the kids miss you. Is there anything you want to talk to the girls about? And they were writing a lot of similar things in their journals that the people twice their age, you know, at this theater company were writing, you know, I felt like I was in a room full of light bulbs and all they were doing was talking about how dark everything is. And I said, well, I want them to know how beautiful they are. And so she said, great, can you make a six week curriculum out of that? And I was like, I don't know, never

done it before. But again, it took, it took someone like mentors and allies to really make that happen. They were able to see something for me. I wasn't able to see for myself. And I think that was such a gift. So, you know, I'm grateful and not an accident that these were women that I very much admire. But, you know, I think that's what really allyship is, is when you're using your privilege to make space for others. And I think that's something, Tori, you really do all the time. You're very aware of your privilege and you always make space for others because of it. To me, that is really allyship in the most active,

beautiful form. So thank you for that. I feel like it's with privilege comes the responsibility to do that. So thank you. One of the things that we realized in our research and that we've heard from community members is that this financial advice around like, you know, just making more money and, you know, working harder. If you're on social security disability, working too much, this is so fucked, working too much or working too effectively can make you lose your insurance. So substantial earnings are considered anything over about $1,400, $1,500. It's more if you are blind or cannot see. And if you work for over 36 months in any capacity, you might lose a large portion of your benefits. Can we talk about that? Like, what is that? I'm so glad you're bringing this

up, Tori. When I was 17, my dad turned 65. And so I ended up getting half of what he was getting. And he was working full time. And actually, some of that money we were able to put into my college, which was good timing. But I think there is the larger question or the larger thing you're bringing up here, which I think is also an additional burden for people with disabilities, is that you have something to lose if you are gainfully employed. And if you don't even know that you can keep this job, it can be completely terrifying to even try it because, again, you don't just lose what you're making per month. So the 14, 1500, I don't even think it is 1500, by the way, I think it is less than that, but you also lose

health insurance as a result. So, and, and I think there's such a fear around like losing that most people, and this is also connects to the sheltered workshop that I mentioned. I have friends of mine. And in fact, I'm not going to mention any names. But someone that I know, was working for a lady, and she would get $750 a month from her, but she was working so many hours, she did the math, and she realized she was making five to $ dollars an hour. But the reason that she was making the $7.50 was that this woman was helping her out by not exceeding her income limits. She was so afraid to lose her social security that that is the deal they made. And then so she ended up really working sheltered workshop hours, you know, and I think there is such fear around losing rather than what you could gain from a job when you have, you're dependent on social security,

and you're not sure what you're going to make. And if you're only making, let's say, you know, like some teachers make 35,000, it's almost not even worth losing your benefits for, I mean, there is a work trial period, and it like a five year process to get off of it that I'm still on myself. Yeah, I think there's tremendous fear around losing money or losing what you have, especially health care wise, in order to find gainful employment and live a purposeful, you know, gainfully employed life as well. Double standard, right? Which is like, you know, do what you can to make more money, but also basically we're going to punish you if you do. Right. It just feels so disgusting. Like just so gross. Well, I mean, I'm so grateful to social security because when I, when I was doing 80%, I mean, and I'll say,

I started out my advocacy doing 80% free, 20% paid. And I was so thrilled if someone wanted to give me 200 bucks to do, I mean, do the same kind of talking that I'm doing now. Obviously I make way more than that now because I realized, wait a minute, my story has value. And especially, and this is why I'm so committed to that negotiating your worth idea. It's not just for people with disabilities. It's not just for women. It's not just for people of color. I think it's really stripping away this idea that we should be either shamed for wanting more. I'm trying in this portion of my life to come from a place of abundance, which has nothing to do with money, but giving love, receiving love. And the more resources I have, the more I can give to the next generation of advocates. So I've been able to pour

all the money that I was able to make in the last three years into my nonprofit, which is now going into programs. It means that I can hire amazing people. I've stripped away a lot of that shame that I had, you know, about like, there's almost like romanticizing poverty when it comes to certain like liberal arts institutions in a way. It's like, oh, I remember having a big crush on a guy who like his big thing was he was going to go live in Brazil for three months with one suitcase. And I remember thinking like, oh, that's so, you know, he's so sexy because he's not materialistic and blah, blah, blah. And I realized like it's another form of snobbery. It's just as arrogant to say like I need nothing as nothing, as it is to say, like, I want

everything. You know what I mean? There's been a lot of criticism of like, minimalist movements, right? Yeah. And look, if that's what you want to do, but like, but I just think that there's no shame in having more than enough. And it's part of self care, too. There's a lot to unpack there. But I think, you know, even i was even in terms of privilege too i was grateful that i got to go to public schools versus because i live on the upper east side and you know so there was a possibility that i could have gone to private school and been with kids who were you know going on ski trips for their 16th birthday to Aspen or whatever. I'm very grateful for that also that I, I feel like at public school, you know, it was just more balanced in terms of there were people

who had money, people who didn't have money, and just more racial diversity, more diversity period. And I think, yeah, again, going back to the privilege of being in New York, where you kind of see everything and see everyone, I think was super helpful growing up. It's been 30 years since ADA was updated. What are some of the ways the laws need to be updated? I don't, you know, it's not so much the laws. I actually think, I mean, yes, of course, there's plenty if you wanted to unpack it. That's a whole nother podcast. But I think it's it's more the cultural barriers, I think, because a lot.

And actually, in fact, we were just talking today. There's a government mandate. You need to have seven percent of your employees have a disability. And this has been the case for quite some time, but there was zero enforcement of it. So most companies and most government contractors were far below this number. I think the average was maybe 3% to 4%. And it ended up being okay because the government hadn't enforced it. And I just found out that as of April 1st, they are looking at ways to enforce this. But I think the biggest issue that I have seen is more cultural.

And this is why I am very passionate about assistive tech and media and fashion and beauty, because I think once we can actually change the cultural things about it, it will impact everything else. Because I think people will be more comfortable hiring, will be more comfortable seeing people with disabilities on TV, on their screens, on stage, things like that. I think the perfect example of this, if we could go back a little bit, is when in the 60s, when the segregation laws had all been passed and legislated, places were still not desegregating. And in Las Vegas, they had not desegregated at all until Frank Sinatra said, hey, if my band, which was primarily all black, cannot walk in the same door as I do, I'm not playing your venue. And that was the way that desegregation happened in Las Vegas.

So I think similarly, you can say, okay, you have a 7% requirement for employment. And yet, okay, if that person is hired, but doesn't feel welcome, it doesn't matter even if you do meet your quotas, right? Because you actually want people who are qualified for their jobs, who feel prepared, who feel accommodated for. And so just making some benchmark number or writing something on a piece of paper that all people with disabilities should be included doesn't mean they feel welcome, doesn't mean they actually feel deeply integrated into that culture. And that is why I have so many friends who are on the legislative end and I love what they do. But for me, I think the most important thing, my priority is to make sure that in terms of tech, in terms of beauty, in terms of, you know, I'm on the ReelAbilities Film

Selection Committee because I'm also able to choose and help shape the narratives around disability a little bit by really making sure that we're not only putting narratives out there, but empowered narratives. So for me, I think the laws are just one piece of that pie. And it's in a way, it's the most performative of the pieces of the pie. Just because you can put anything in writing, if no one's actually practicing it, it doesn't really matter. So that's not to put anyone down who is doing that work. No, but it's a great point and you bring up the example of desegregation like that was there was a difference between you

know like everybody thinks you know the emancipation proclamation is the thing and it's like no like it continued on for many many years after that so it's a good reminder like i focus a lot on you know policy change and the importance of that and i think in some regards it is incredibly important paid family leave all of these things right but policy is an incredible start but what continues it is the actual implementation and how it's done yep you're so right what is one of the biggest misconceptions about disabilities that you would want to clear up? Oh, my God. How much time do we have? I mean, first of all, I think the biggest thing that I always try to say, whether it's for people or design, is like, make it sexy. And so the first thing I would say is, first of all, I think the biggest misconception is that people with disabilities, all we do is suffer. And I think that, I mean, just me

personally, I think that everybody has something beautiful about them. And so disability to me, again, it's just another part of our incredible diversity as human beings. And I just wish there was more sexy factor in the way that people saw us because I see it all the time. All my friends are sexy. And I just, that's number one. Number two, I think there's this idea that, again, I think this might be more old school, but I think there is this idea that if you're a disabled person, you're the one that needs to figure it out instead of having the culture or or the community that's welcoming you, you know, figure it out with you. is collaborative. And so I'm not one of those people that feels, because I see this with feminism too, I think there are those who, you know, want feminism to belong to only women.

I don't think that that's how we move the needle. It has to involve everyone. Same with disability. I think that, you know, for me, allyship is not about never making mistakes. It's how do you respond when you have made that mistake? And are you going to make, you know, put your money where your mouth is? And are you going to actually make the changes and listen? Because I think real allyship is about listening. And so for me, I think the biggest misconceptions that I see is, again, the sexy factor, but also that I think that a lot of non-disabled people feel that it's kind of disabled people's problem to figure things out or men think it's women's problem. No, it involves everyone, right? And people of color, you know, again, with that Frank Sinatra example,

you know, Frank could have said, I'm a white guy, what do I have to do with this? But no, he understood his privilege. And he used it to make the door as wide as he possibly could for the people who were with him. And it didn't just affect them, it affected the entire state of Nevada. And I also, I think one of the biggest things is like, you know, my entire life, people are like, oh, you're really smart. You know, it's like, oh, well, so are you, you know? And I think the biggest thing that I do, because I, you know, I get talked to a lot, is when people compliment me, I like to say, oh, you too. And the number one way that you know that they're not putting you on equal footing with them is if you say you too, and they look offended. Wow. Yeah. Nope. I know exactly what you mean.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I believe that feminism in the same definition, right? Of like early on in the show, we were starting to have men on the podcast, we were starting to, you know, include more of their stories. And we got some pushback, which is like, why are you including men the show's called financial feminists like and i'm like i don't think we have true feminism without male allies and i think it's very important for the people who already do have power and privilege to be able to leverage that and have the responsibility to use that i always joke i'm like financial feminists can be of any gender identity and as long as you're chill and believe in the equality of all genders like you can stay like we welcome you very much

so yeah I couldn't agree more I mean my boss at that theater did not have physical disabilities she just had neighbors she really loved and started this theater company with her neighbors and wanted to include everybody and that was just something very important to her. And I think also, yeah, I think people feel that if it doesn't touch their lives, it's not relevant to them sometimes. And I definitely think we need to bust that myth because anyone that is hurt, we all hurt. Anyone that is left out or not heard or not seen or not acknowledged. I mean, that affects everyone. And the wonderful thing about, we just rewatched last night. If anyone wants to know more about Judy Heumann and how she, you know, basically is the mother of our movement,

there's a fantastic film called Crip Camp about that journey to making 504 a reality and then the ADA. And what I love about that is, you know, the biggest moment in that movement was a 26 day takeover of the Capitol in San Francisco, where they had the Black Panthers feeding them. And it was, you know, and it was a lesbian group that was giving them showers. And so I really believe that all of our, all of our wagons are hitched together when we're from any marginalized community. And I thought that was such a beautiful example of where, you know, anyone could say, oh, well, that's not my problem. But I think the people I really admire realize that any problem is everybody's problem.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. When you see conversations about disability, inclusion, accessibility online, what do you think is missing from these conversations? Oh, that's a really big question. Do you mean disability conversations between disability advocates or just in general is it what non-disabled in general yeah or maybe like let's talk i mean i would love to know personally like you know for non-disabled people like what what are we missing like what what ways can we leverage our privilege whether that's in online, like in the work that we do? What is what is missing from that allyship? I think maybe it's nobody's fault. It's a lot of times what we don't know. So for example, if you don't know that it took someone two hours

to get to you, you might be really pissed off that they're 15 minutes late. But if you understood like what it took for that person to get up, maybe they didn't have a personal care attendant to help them that day. Maybe the accessory didn't show up or paratransit didn't show up on time. I don't blame anyone for what they don't know. But just to make room for the fact that there might be pieces missing in what you do know, and giving people, and patience, I think. And also I think in terms of neurodiversity, I think, you know, you could hire someone who's brilliant and autistic and maybe say, oh, this person's not a cultural fit because they don't,

you know, they don't look me in the eye or they don't say hi the way that Tori does or, you know, and I think that there's a lot of things like that where they're not factoring in how a person's condition could, you know, maybe they really want to look you in the eye. Maybe they really want to be a team player in the way that you're used to. But, you know, I think just being aware that there's more to the story. That's a specific example, but I think it's also true for most people, right? And one of my favorite quotes is, you know, be kind because everyone you meet is fighting some sort of battle. We don't know what that is. And you don't have to have a disability to understand that. I think this is something

that I want just from other human beings, period, for all of us, right? Even, you know, I think, you know, like when I think about being a white man, I think there's also, I have compassion for that too. It's like, they often don't know how they're part of the conversation. And because they're not maybe used to being excluded, this whole, you know, diversity push is very awkward. That's one of the reasons why I talk about privilege so much and allyship is that, you know, we're all a part of this, you know, and it's not about excluding anyone. You know, I don't want to exclude white men from the conversation or white women. You know what I mean? I want to make sure it's just about welcoming more people in who are supposed to be there, have a right to be there. And we're more complete when we have everyone, you know, diversity makes us more complete. And so that's the biggest thing, because I always try to make disability not just about disability. There are certain universal things about being

human. We all want to be loved. We all want to know that we have a voice. Accepted, seen, heard. Yes. Yeah. Safe. Yeah. Yes, exactly. That we matter, that we have gifts to contribute in the world. And that's part of why, you know, even when I do my self-esteem programs, I really try to offer them for everybody. We all want to feel seen, heard, accepted, and that's whether we're verbal or not, whether I'm not talking about actual ability, but it's really about acknowledgement, you know? Anyway, so I always try to make it about something bigger

than just disability, because ultimately we all have the same, we might not have the exact same needs, but we all have the same wants, right? Yeah. Your work has been so impactful in communities, and I would love for you to talk about your nonprofit, Give Beauty Wings. Talk about the work that you do and how listeners out there can support it. Oh, thank you so much, Tori. Well, Give Beauty Wings really came about when I was doing these workshops on self-esteem at NYU. And I found that ultimately what I was really doing, other than just talking about how we feel about ourselves, was really helping these ladies to get as many clouds out of the way so they could shine as brightly as possible and do things that they were dying to do.

Whether that meant singing in the shower more or pursuing a career that they didn't think was possible for them. But we all have, I mean, I think especially women, we have so many excuses and so many reasons sometimes why not to do something, you know, and that's why it was very liberating for me to perform in that show was like, I didn't think that was possible. But it was because someone else believed in me for me, that I was able to do that. And so with the work that we do, it's really about making sure that whatever their goals were, I wanted to do that. And so with the work that we do, it's really about making sure that whatever their goals were, I wanted to support them. But as I was doing this work, I realized it was about a sense of purpose. I also realized that, you know, I had one particular

activity where I just had everybody write about their day. And one of the girls said to me, wow, it was so great to write about my day. Nobody's ever asked me how my day was before. And this goes back to the support systems of like, one of the biggest things that I realized and how I actually started the Forbes column as well, was that there was nobody really talking about disability and leadership. There was no one talking about, you know, I, because I was an only child to artists' parents who were their own bosses, they treated me like a future leader, you know? And I realize that that was such a gift now, but I didn't think it was revolutionary then. And so I really wanted to talk about and around and foster that leadership and that mentorship that I got, not just from my parents, but like I said, even at NYU, at this theater,

having people who believed in me enough. And so Give Beauty Wings is really about fostering that leadership and that mentorship for the next generation. And so one of the, you know, things that we're going to be doing is we're doing, actually, hopefully, it'll be right around the corner when this airs, I am having an event about art as self care. And we're going to talk to writers, actors, you know, with disabilities who are using their art to create community. And then we have also that financial wellness workshop that I would love to have you part of, Tori, as an ally. It would be great to just, if you even want to do a video for them, I would love that. But for me, I wanted to, again, create community because especially in the

pandemic, so many of my former students were coming to me saying, Sean, I'm so bored. I'm so isolated. I have nothing to do. So ultimately, you know, Give Beauty Wings is about putting our gifts to action. And I want to empower as many people who feel like they don't have that support system to have that support system, whether it be, you know, finding financial tools or even just someone to believe in them, right? So mentorship, financial wellness, art, all of it is a part of that feeling like a whole person.

And it's a form of self-care, right? Yeah. So Give Beauty Wings is really about that. And I wanted it to be something personal where people could really share how they think and feel and not feel it just having, you know, friends and community that means something to you? I, you know, for me, it's, it's not about defining what that is for someone else, but creating space for it. So thank you for asking. Of course. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your work. I'm assuming we can look up, give beauty wings and we'll have that linked in the show notes, but where else can people find you to connect more with you? Okay, you can find me at seanhorn.com, X-I-A-N-H-O-R-N.com. Or you can find me at X-I-A-N-F-O-R, beauty on TikTok now and givebeautywings.org. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your work. We appreciate it.

And givebeautywings.org. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your work. We appreciate it. A huge thanks to Sean for joining us. If you are interested in learning more, not only about the show, but about actionable things you can do to better your money and better your life,

we have a brand new Start Here link in our episode notes that takes you directly to our best resources, including not only the show notes for episodes and past podcasts, but free workshops, step-by-step guides, personalized plans about everything and anything personal finance. We've also compiled all of the resources from Sean and her team over there. So make sure to check out the link and follow Sean and the work she's doing with Give Beauty Wings.

Thank you again for joining us. As always, Financial Feminists, we appreciate your support of the show and we'll catch you later. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Sharice Wade, Alina Helzer, Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Valerie Oresko, Jack Koning, Khalil Dumas, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Thank you. for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, her first 100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com or follow us on Instagram at financialfeministpodcast.