Finding Peak w/ Ryan Hanley - Andrew Ryan & Jack Hertvik on Dominating the Insurance Game

Episode Date: August 19, 2021

Spartan philosophy, built in the black-ops lab of business: https://www.findingpeak.comFinding Peak podcast: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanleyIn this tremendous episode of The Ryan Hanley Show, Ryan Hanley is joined by Andrew Ryan and Jack Hertvik of Hertvik Insurance Group. Andrew and Jack are running a dynamic and growing agency that pushes the boundaries of what it means to be a traditional independent insurance agency, and in turn, dominating the insurance game.Episode Highlights:Jack shares one of the things he loves about working in the insurance industry. (9:27)How did Jack become an SIAA Master Agency? (10:06)Jack mentions one of the fascinating things happening in the industry. (11:34)Andrew shares how technology has changed the insurance industry. (13:16)Andrew mentions one of the huge factors that he and Jack have discussed. (16:42)When did Jack and Andrew decide that using more tech tools was for the benefit of their agency? (24:24)Jack shares the importance of building out your agency’s tech plan slowly. (36:04)Jack gives a few pieces of advice about the insurance industry. (42:36)Andrew tells listeners where he sees the agency five years from now. (51:35)Key Quotes:“If it was as easy as putting it in a box and just saying, hey, do this do that, we'd all be successful insurance agencies. So, watching them figure it out and kind of having that curiosity of figuring out what works for them is the best part of my job.” - Jack Hertvik“You always need to be thinking about how your replacement is going to handle it, not necessarily because you're going to be gone. But, because you might advance or you might have somebody else that needs to do that job. You have to be thinking about that stuff in the future.” - Jack Hertvik“I think that empowerment thing that Jack mentioned, is very important. And I think that's huge, especially in like, smaller agencies it’s probably even more important. Because if you have that embedded in your culture from the beginning, it's just, it's huge.” - Andrew RyanResources Mentioned:Andrew Ryan LinkedInJack Hertvik LinkedInHertvik Insurance GroupReach out to Ryan Hanley--Recommended Tools for GrowthOpusClip: #1 AI video clipping and editing tool: https://link.ryanhanley.com/opusRiverside: HD Podcast & Video Software | Free Recording & Editing: https://link.ryanhanley.com/riversideWhisperFlow: Never waste time typing on your keyboard again: https://link.ryanhanley.com/whisperflowCaptionsApp: One app for all your social media video creation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/captionsappGoHighLevel: It's time to take your business workflow to the Next Level: https://link.ryanhanley.com/gohighlevelPerspective.co: The #1 funnel builder for lead generation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/perspective--Episodes You Might Enjoy:From $2 Million Loss to World-Class Entrepreneur: https://lnk.to/delkFrom One Man Shop to $200M in Revenue: https://lnk.to/tommymelloIs Psilocybin the Gateway to Self-Mastery? https://lnk.to/80upZ9This show is part of the Unplugged Studios Network — the infrastructure layer for serious creators. 👉 Learn more at https://unpluggedstudios.fm.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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Welcome back to the show. Today we have an absolutely tremendous episode for you. We have a conversation with Andrew Ryan and Jack. Hurtvick from Hurtvick insurance and these guys just know what they're doing. Got to meet Andrew in person at Wanna Paradiso's events that he did in Boston. Matt Jack for the first time on this call but knew of him and knew of the reputation of his agency and was just super interested in everything they're doing. They're just dynamic agency.

They got joint venture going on with a mortgage company. They're an SIA master agency in addition to all the other stuff they do. and just a lot to learn. Awesome conversation. If you are a insurance industry wonk, you're just going to love this one. And it's just fun to have these conversations because you never know where they're going to go

and you just get tremendous value. And Jack and Andrew are just great assets to our industry. And I encourage you to connect and follow things they're doing because you're going to learn a lot. All right, before we get to them, I want to give a quick shout out to Podium. Podium is one of the premier communication tools in our industry, and they have lots of different functions and features to their tool.

But the feature that I use, the feature I use the most. I talk about the most is their web chat feature. And what I like about it is it's simple, easy to use. It allows us to customize our messaging, and it pops this little message on our website that basically just asks like, hey, is there something we can help with? Do you need a quote? Like, just leave us a message here and we'll get back to you. And the cool part is you get notification on your cell phone.

And then when we respond, even if we respond on our computer, it texts the person back. So the person gets a text message back. So we're getting like 95% response rates on every podium web chat form fill, which is awesome. I mean, anyone who's done any kind of digital marketing, inbound marketing, knows that, you know, 90 plus percent response rate is just bananas. and Podium has been a net gain to our agency and happy to have them both, you know, functioning as a tool in our tool belt at Rogue as well as a sponsor of this show.

And go to Podium.com, go to Podium.com. That's P-O-D-I-U-M-Podium.com today. And check it out. Get the demo. Again, this is what I say with all these tools, with everything we use. You don't have to use them. I'm not trying to say that if you don't use the tools that I use that there's something wrong with you or anything like that.

Just know what it does. Get the demo. Have someone on your team get the demo. Know what the tool does so that if you need it or you feel like it's something that could help you grow your agency now or in the future. You don't have to then start looking, right? You already know what it is. You can start to plan around it and you can get to work when you need it. So podium.com, P-O-D-I-U-M dot com.

All right. Let's get on to Andrew and Jack. What's going on, guys? What's up, Ryan? Not too much. Another day in the neighborhood here. Have you met Jack before? I don't know if you have. I don't think I have. I don't think so. No. Well, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, Jack. Thanks for coming on the show.

You got it. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Andrew texts me was the last night. You're like, hey, we're going to talk about. And I'm like, I don't know. You tell me. I just invite people. I don't think it's my responsibility. I have to figure out what we're going to talk about. Bradley did the same thing to me. Because I've never even done. This was the first thing that I ever done like that.

So I was like freaking out. I was like, dude, you got to tell me what the heck I'm supposed to be talking about. I can like be semi-prepared and he didn't tell me anything. That's the beauty of these things, in my opinion. And that's why I do it. You know, there's a lot of other guys and women in the space that do podcasts. And their shows are very structured, right? And especially outside of our space, there's a ton.

on a podcast that are, yes, these same five questions, here's what they are, we go through them, you know, whatever. And, you know, it's like bio, five questions. And then they, you know, what book changed your life? And I shouldn't do that voice because it makes it sound derogatory. And I only mean it to be slightly derogatory. But I just, that's just not, it's not at all what I'm interested in. Like, you know, I think that's more of the, my podcast. is a business model, right? Like you, you know, I need to have set questions and a flow and people know what to expect. And I think that's how you jack your numbers up and how you're able to consistently produce high volume of content. Like, have you guys ever heard of John Lee Dumas?

Yeah. No. So John Lee Dumas started, what was an entrepreneur on fire podcast? For a while, it was the most listened to podcasts in the world. He did an episode a day. He was one of the very first guys to do an episode a day. And he just interviewed entrepreneurs. And he had, it was like, give me your bio. Then here's five questions. Then tell me, you know, some like Freudian's question that's supposed to get you to answer in a weird way that's surprised, you know, like all this like stuff, which, which again, it worked, right? People listen to it like crazy. They thought he was brilliant. And I've actually interviewed him twice for different podcasts, not this actual, technically this is like the fourth iteration of a podcast that I've had.

And John's a good dude. Don't get me wrong. I just don't think there's anything special about his show. Outside of the fact that he did the work and he's hardworking guy and he reached out and he made a business out of it, which that part I have a tremendous amount of respect for. But the actual episodes, in my opinion, were boring as shit. Yeah. You know? It's like nothing in my life is formulaic.

I don't need that, you know, in terms. Yeah. And people would just be like, oh, Johnny Dumas got this guy on. And it would be some awesome guest. Awesome guest. Except, I don't know, I just felt like the formulating nature of it. You didn't really get, I was never like shocked by what someone said or like, wow, I wasn't expecting that rabbit hole. Where if you listen to Joe Rogan, Tim Ferriss, James Altascher, some of these other people who do podcasts, you literally have no idea where they're going. Like you're, you feel like you're on this, you're like walking into the forest and you have no idea where you're going to come out or how you're going to get to the other side.

And that to me just has always been more interesting. So I tend to underprepare. Yeah, there's that whole Howard Stern School of Radio. It's just, you know, everybody's excited. What is he going to say next? Yes. And this is terrible. radio that everyone is listening to right now. But there is an episode of the James Alpster

podcast in which, oh, and I'm going to, man, there's an episode and there's a guy at, is it Sal something? Doesn't matter. They're talking about, um, um, not Larry David, but um, the, the guy from CNN, uh, who did the show forever. Larry, Larry King, talking about Larry King. So this is one of Larry King's very good friends. And the guest, I think it's Sal Fussman, Sal Fussman. Sal Fustman on James Alder's podcast. I promise his story has a point.

So Sal Fussman is on James Alistler's podcast and he's talking about Larry King. And, you know, Larry King, all-time interviewer, right? Except there's a lot of people that don't like his style. And James Altshire, at the beginning of the podcast, was very anti-Lary King's style. And Sal is basically pitching James Altiture on why he thinks Larry King's style is, you know, the best and as much as you can subjectively determine that. And basically what Larry King said was his style was curiosity. That's all it was.

He didn't care what you had done. You really didn't care. You know, some producer told him, hey, I should interview Jack Hurt, Vic. He's an interesting dude, right? and Larry would show up with no idea why. And he would just start asking questions. Yeah. Eventually he would figure out what you were interested in,

what made you unique. And by the end, it would be this completely engaging conversation. But he had, he said he had oftentimes had no idea even who the person was. Like every, the audience would be like, oh my God, look who Larry King's interviewing.

And he'd say Larry King would like literally have no idea who this person was. Yeah. Wow. And I just find that to be, intriguing. I don't know. Yeah, not to bring it back to insurance, but it's one of the things that I love about what I get to do, because we're an SIA master agency. I don't know if you know that. I did, yeah.

You know, one of the cool things about that job is I walk into five agencies, and each of those five agencies is completely different. You know, they're successful for doing completely different things. And it's that curiosity of, you know, figuring out why it works for you and why it might not work for somebody else. Because if it was as easy as putting it in a buy, and just saying, hey, do this, do that, you know, we'd all be successful insurance agencies. So watching them figure it out and kind of having that curiosity of figuring out what works for them is the best part of my job. How did you become an SIA master agency?

It's a really strange story. You know, back in the early 2000s, people would send you those faxes like, you know, hey, sign up for this. We responded to a fax. Really? Yeah, easily the best investment I've ever done off of a fax machine. So you got fact spammed by SIA, responded to the fact spam, and it turned into a whole business model for you. It's been good for me. That is amazing.

So, you know, I know the relationship with the parentship is different for every master agency. And I've spoken at a bunch of master agencies and done different things for them. And I'm a fan of SIA. Technically, I'm a member of Indium, the network, which I'm also a big fan of. I got no beef for SIA. And I think very, very highly of Matt Masiello and was very happy that he is a larger player in, you know, in what in the future with all the news that came out. I think it's going to be good for the whole channel personally. You don't have to comment on that if you don't want to.

But to me and my understanding of Matt and what he wants to do, I think it's going to be great for you guys. Oh, yeah. No, Matt, I mean, Matt's vision of insurance and what it's going to be in the future, I think is spot on. And I'm really excited and couldn't be happier for somebody that's such a great, intelligent person. And it's going to be, you know, I think one of the fascinating things happening in the industry right now that SIA is going to start, you know, moving in this direction is with technology, you know, it used to be a thing where it wasn't as available to smaller agencies. And, you know, over the last couple of years, the tools that are now available to, you know, even small agencies to be able to do things with their agency that weren't even plausible, you know, five years ago. It's amazing. And I think you're going to see Matt really kind of move in that direction and helping that move forward. Yeah, I think a great example of that is, so maybe like a decade ago when I was with the Murray Group, we, we wanted to do some marketing automation. And there were really like two options at the time that were accessible in any regard, which was MailChimp, which couldn't be more basic, right?

I mean, you look at MailChimp today, it does all these amazing things. At the time, it was literally just you put some names in through an uploaded CSV file and send an email. That was all there was. And then there was InfusionSoft, which essentially you had to have your PhD in rocket science to send an email out. And those were like it. And both of them were really difficult to use in different ways and or limited.

And now you have, you know, Every agency in our channel could have agency Zoom and Tarmica and, you know, these tools that just, man, they just amplify our ability. It really is an exciting time. Yeah. When we look into Andrew, you can comment on some of the agency Zoom, Tarmica, Arias, you know, combination that we're putting together. It's really powerful. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. No. I know Ryan, you're working on some of the same stuff we are. And it's crazy because like Jack's saying, like the technology. I mean, obviously we're slightly bigger than when you are, but the technology is still. Have for long, you son of a business. No, but it's just, it's crazy that the technology that helps a 35-person agency will also benefit a three-person agency. You know what I mean?

And I think it's not, it will definitely help you scale. I told Ryan this, Jack, I told Ryan this last time, a couple times when I caught you in and I was like, man, even though I can never start a scratch agency, like I don't think I could possibly do it. I'm almost jealous because instead of taking, like, we have what, like, how many years old is this agency now? We've been in since 1946. Right. So you're taking 70, 80 years of, which obviously successful history, but you're taking like

all these things that's been in place for very long time. And you have to kind of like try to make technology work in those ways. Whereas if you're like starting with technology. technology, you can do things completely differently. You know, it's almost like we do with our other thing on the side. You know what I mean? You just kind of throw stuff at the wall and then adjust as we be. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating from the standpoint. Like, I mean, you know, Hurtig Insurance, you know, my grandfather started it. You know, my father, you know, took it over. And, you know, it's a family run agency. We're in a small town. And it's, you know, it's just like every other agency out there from the standpoint of the fact that, you know, we started as a local agency that worked locally. You know, we didn't write anybody outside of, you know, probably a 30-mile radius. And, you know, there's still a lot of value in,

you know, the relationships that we've built and, you know, the local, you know, establishment we've got. But, you know, being able now to use that technology to expand out and kind of have, you know, one foot in the future and, you know, one foot in the past that's really served us well. It's kind of fascinating. It's like running two different agencies at times, it feels like. I think that's a great way to describe it. It is, to me, it is wild that say, Andrew and I can jump on a Zoom and talk about automation setup. And we have three people and you guys have 30 plus and we can share notes. Right. I mean, everything's the same and different.

But, but that to me is exciting because now it just broadens the spectrum of, viewpoints that you can pull from, right? Like I always been a baseball player, a big fan of baseball. And my dad at age 15 basically said to me, like, I can't teach you anymore. Like I have taught you everything that I can teach you about baseball. And now it's time for you to go learn from other people. And he said, everyone's going to have an opinion. Take what works for you, throw the rest out, and keep moving forward. And before we had these little tight windows that we could do that from, right? Like if you were a middle market agency, you only talk to middle market. And if you were local, you can only talk to local. And now I feel like we're in this place where with technology

and with the fact that it's scaled, you know, to both to all areas, you can kind of cherry pick. A middle market can cherry pick an idea from a small three person local agency and apply it and vice versa. And I think it just makes us all so much better. Yeah. It just helps us scale, right? I mean, if you have the technology in place, like you, that the big thing that you and I have talked about is trying to get like we have all these processes right and nothing's written down you don't have like you know it happens but you don't know exactly how it happens once you get all those processes down and then try to figure out where technology fits in the ease of scaling like I showed you that kind of that that that library of the videos we

did for training you know just doing little dumb things like that it barely takes any more time but doing that once, you know, now, hey, the next person we bring on, it's going to be super easy to train them. You know what I mean? That's just the stuff we haven't done before. Yeah, you always need to be thinking about how your replacement's going to handle it. Not necessarily because you're going to be gone, but because you might advance or, you know, you might have somebody else that needs to do that job, you know.

You have to be thinking that step in the future. I do think that's important. So I'm interested, I'm interested in both your takes, but, Jack, because I haven't spoken to you too much before. I'll let you go after I answer this question first. So I had a meeting with a carrier partner this morning. And it's a good, very good partner. And my, my, he's, he's our local rep, but he kind of, I don't know, he's very good. It's not your standard local marketing rep from a carrier. Like he advocates upchain for me and has helped me get some opportunities that maybe, because he believes in what we're trying to grow. Okay. But so he was, he said something to me.

he was asking me, you know, well, how are you managing growing the business and selling? And I looked at him and I was like, if I never sell another policy ever again in my entire life, I would not be upset, not even a little bit. To me, it means nothing. You know, for me personally to sell them, obviously I want my agency to sell policies, but for me personally. And he was like, holy shit, he's like, I've never, he's like, I haven't heard that, maybe ever from anyone.

Like, it's always this very ego-driven thing. So I guess my question is maybe, I don't know if you're, still selling or if you're managing or how that works. But, you know, I guess my opinion has always been if I'm not training my replacement, that I'm actually not growing as an individual. Like, I feel like you should always be training your replacement. Is that something, do you believe that? Do you imbite it? Is it, is it like, where does that fall in your structure? How do you guys view that kind of thing? Yeah, I'm, I'm a huge believer in it. I think especially because as an agency owner, you need to know almost a little bit about everything that happens in your

agency. And if you don't, it's very difficult to manage. So, you know, and it's funny. I mean, I don't think I've sold personally a policy in, in a while. I mean, I had somebody, a neighbor of mine came up to me the other day and said, hey, I want you to write my insurance. And it's, it's almost an uncomfortable conversation where I say, look, I've got people that are awesome at that, you know, and they are going to take care of you. And if you've ever got a problem, call me. But these are the folks that are trained and will do the by far the best job to get you where you need to be. And by constantly training your replacement, you're kind of empowering everybody underneath you to do what they need to do. That to me feels like a big place when I,

when I'm at a conference or an association event or or whatever, right? I'm sure you see it maybe in some of your events you do with other agents that I say, hey, you, when I find an agency owner who feels really stuck. Not just like I'm struggling with this one particular thing or, hey, we just hit a little plateau, but like really stuck. I feel like that tends to be like if you were to boil down the actual reason, it's because they either out of fear of losing connection, which I think is real, or not feeling comfortable, they just, they refuse to get to get out of that place.

You can't go build J. and partnerships and look for scaling technology and tools like Donna to better understand what's happening for cross-sell opportunities and upsell opportunities. Like you can't put that stuff in your agency if you're also writing the home and auto insurance for your neighbor. Like you just, you can't be good at everything. Like you just have so many brain cycles. And that's a really difficult, that's a really difficult thing I think for a lot of people

to do. I believe I'm wired differently as an agency owner. I was, I'm not a second generation. You know what I mean? I don't get any pleasure. out of writing insurance. So I think that's different. But I think for a lot of people, that's a tough leap to make. Yeah. It's important to know, too, you know, what kind of agency you want to build and how you're going to get there and always be thinking about that next step.

Because if you don't, it's so easy to not get there. I mean, it's easy to say planning helps you get there. But it's amazing how many agencies lose focus of that. And you just end up, you live in the weeds, your entire life. And if you, you know, you're never going to get out of there. if you keep thinking I can do 85 different things in one day. Just you're not Superman. Don't try to be Superman. Yeah, there's a, there's a hard ceiling, right? Like if you're not, yeah, and I just, I just call it business in general.

You know, if you're the person who's at the top who's still doing all that day-to-day nonsense, there's a very hard ceiling where unless you can clone yourself, you're not going to have a break, you know? So you almost have to be planning ahead, you know. And I think Jack and Scott here, they did like a really good job with that, like, with everyone here. Like I think from me, the rest of our staff is always kind of like that buying, you know, where you, your police have say in what we're doing. And because they have say, there's responsibility on their end to enact whatever we, whatever direction we have. you know so I think I think that empowerment thing that Jack mentioned is very important and I think I think that's huge especially in like a small agency is probably even more important because

if you have that like embedded in your culture from the beginning you know it's just it's huge I think yeah I spend enough time in the weeds on the golf course I don't need to spend time in my business um not today I shouldn't even say that because I can't even make it to the golf course um Matt Wood and Mike Crowley and I are trying to like we all kind of live in central eastern New York and we're trying to get a golf thing together and like what they works for you. You know, we're all so busy doing all these different things that it's like finding a day and then, you know, when do you get away from your business?

But okay, so I want to kind of transition to when did you guys? So you've mentioned three tools that agents may or may not know about. they certainly should know about two of them, Donna by ARIAS Analytics. That's Donna for agents. Google Donna for agents, Donna for agents. Or tarmica, T-A-R-M-I-K-A dot com. Not that either one are not sponsors of this show. So people should know about those two tools.

But you also meant agency Zoom. I'm sure you have other tools. When did you? Was it a conscious decision? What was the impetus? Like for you to go, I mean, those are some of the more most forward leaning pieces of technology in our entire industry. And we can talk about what they do and how they implement it if we want. But just in general, like those are kind of the cutting edge tech in our space.

When did you as an agency decide that moving into tools like this was to the benefit of the agency? Like was there a decision, hey, we're going to move this way? or were you always tech focused? Like how did that come about that you found yourself using these tools? Yeah, so it was really out of necessity. So we started a joint venture with a real estate group. And we found ourselves in a position

where suddenly we were getting, you know, hundreds upon hundreds of leads every week. And being able to process them all in the way that we wanted to really led to us looking into agency Zoom. And that's kind of where it started. An agency Zoom really with the ones that, you know, kind of connected us. I would say it was our first system outside of our management system and our radar that we really got in depth with. Would you agree, Andrew, that that was kind of the one that really we utilized fully to its potential?

Yeah, to rewind back, like we had two years before that, we had been on Salesforce. But Salesforce, like, I didn't know what we were doing. You know, we didn't know what you need somebody who knows what they're doing in Salesforce. or has something already built out in there to make that work. So we basically wasted a year of paying for Salesforce and did very well with it. Then we switched to HubSpot. I actually really liked HubSpot. Still a big fan of them.

But we still had a little issues with like HubSpeth's not insurance terminology. You know what I mean? So with the sales people, it's just, they're just hard to get them to like get really into using it. The good thing about agency is that. And part of it's almost that like there's a lot of stuff I can't do. But what it can do is like very insurance-based. You know what I mean? You can tell it's definitely created by people with insurance backgrounds.

You know what I have? So getting that build out, Jack's right. We kind of had this process. And we, Jack and Scott, I wasn't even involved at that point with this, but like they had this process laid out. But then I think on the numbers were even like bigger than they had presumed beforehand. So like, all right, like this makes no sense how we were planning on doing. this. So agency Zoom is definitely been big. I think I mentioned to before. And then we walked out too.

We had Scott Sond Griffin was working for us and he had just graduated during COVID. So he had he has a data analytics back then. So he was able to do lots of stuff even outside of the system to kind of connect different pieces of technology, you know, whether we're connecting to our real estate partners or whatever else, you know, to kind of make that flow of data very smooth and taking that manual, like, keying this data in completely out of the picture. And I think it's stupid because I think it should be a lot easier than it is. Like, it's almost dumb that we had to build something like that.

But doing that and then everything else we've gotten into, obviously, I mean, Tarmacut on the commercial rating side is fabulous. I know you're using it now. personal lines with what we have going would be game changing once it's live so very excited about that and then actually Grange is the one, Grange insurance is the one that hooked us up with Donnie. So definitely shout out to them because they, they, Jack's very close to them. So I think we're one of their biggest partners. So they reached out to Jack and just said, hey, we're.

got this thing and that was funny because I already knew Ron from Tarmica. I was like, oh, I know Ron. It was like the weirdest little things. I didn't even know who we worked for at the time. So we went through all that with them. We actually literally just got our login information yesterday. Oh, nice. Have you jumped in and poked around a little bit?

Yeah, we've been poking around. I'm really, Jack and I, we're trying to figure out whether we, because we don't want another interface for our CSRs to go into you know so part of us really wants to postpone until we can get this integration with agency zoom like seamless you know what I mean because I do know what you mean I know you've talked to like Chris Paradis about how he uses it but it's so funny how one tool can be used two completely different ways you know what I mean like he uses it to to basically educate his people are doing reviews on every single policy, right? He kind of has like all this information with everybody.

We are trying to use it to pick who we want to have conversations with. Does that make sense? It does. It does. We don't, you kind of have this broken into like two separate sections, right? You have the people who love us who want to buy from us or the people who want to leave us, then we need to figure out why they want to leave us and if they're worth saving or not. You know what I mean?

So those are the two pockets we're going to need for. And I think Donna really helps us kind of dial and figure out how to best aim our efforts. Yeah, I see it and how I've been using it so far as more of a management tool. I don't know that I'll have my people. You know, I have Sarah on my team who currently is an account manager, but she may eventually morph into more of like an operations position. and I'll probably have a limited more leadership or managerial logins and use it as a management tool rather than a tool that I have our day-to-day operators using is the way that I've

kind of viewed it so far. I mean, obviously that's always open to change. And Don is making a lot of improvements. And I'm on the, you know, I mean, I don't think it's a, I'm not disclosing anything here. but I'm on an advisory board for Donna and I spend a lot of time giving them feedback. And they have so many, you know, I don't want to say improvements, but upgrades and feature enhancements and stuff like that that are coming that are just, to me, I see it as a place that I love the idea of it being integrated directly.

They can see Zoom from an operator perspective because now we can do the trigger fires and all that kind of stuff, which to me is like, that's the next level when someone's sentiment and And for those that don't understand, the quick breakdown of Donna is agency book analytics. And there's so much more to it. But they're defining characteristic, I think, as a utility is its ability to give you real-time feedback on the sentiment, the actual disposition of someone towards your agency based on email combos, text convos, phone convos, and then policy, policy administration. So it's taking how many claims, how many call-ins for different things. And then, you know, they're very close. It's in beta right now, but they're very

close to being able to say, okay, based on the, the words used in emails to you, how often they're emailing, how often they're texting, the words used in text, what is their sentiment? And, and then, you know, I think about it like, like you guys, you know, you have all this high vine. There's no way for you to gut how people feel about your agency when you have that many people come in. There's just no way. I mean, it's impossible for you to gut that. So what if, you know, client 59 in that week, you know, comes in. And all of a sudden, their sentiment for the first two months is an 80.

And all of a sudden it drops to a 60, right? You'd have no idea. You can't catch that in that promoter score. So that happens. Now all of a sudden, Jack gets an email that says, Hey, home auto umbrella client dropped 20 plus points sentiment. Something's wrong. And now you as Jack the leader or Andrew, you know,

whoever is this can come in and go, something happened on this account, what's going on. And now you can actually find and solve a problem in real time. To me, I mean, one, this is the second largest expense in my agency. I pay for it. So no one can accuse me of, you know, I'm getting this for free or whatever. I don't.

And I just, I invested it in it early because I look at, I want to be a high volume shop like you, but in small commercial. And I look at it and I say, there's no other tool that gives me the ability to do that down the line. It just, it's a game changer from a customer experience standpoint. What's up, guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode. But as you know, we do not run ads on this show.

In exchange for that, I need your help. If you're loving this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, I would love for you to subscribe, share, comment if you're on YouTube, leave a rating review if you're on Spotify or Apple iTunes, etc. This helps the show grow. It helps me bring more guests in. We have a tremendous lineup of people coming in, men and women who've done incredible things, sharing their stories around peak performance, leadership, growth. sales the things that are going to help you grow as a person and grow your business but they all check out comments ratings reviews they check out all this information before they come on so as I reach out to more and more people and

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Let's get back to the episode. Yeah. We just, it was funny. When we kind of first started doing this, we said, hey, look, I just want to be able to go to each one of my CSRs and say, look, these are the five people this week that are most likely to leave the agency. And these are the five people this week that are most likely to buy something for you.

Because before we were just choosing 10 random names out of a hat and being like, all right, let's call these people this week and see what happens. Yeah. You know, so it really gives us some direction and empowers them at, you know, to do what they need to do. Yeah. This is the kind of tech, though, that gets me so excited about what we're doing. And not, and again, it's not about technology. It's about what you can deliver to your customers.

And what I think is this stuff, especially something like Donna coupled with something like an agency Zoom or another CRM. I don't want to knock. There's plenty better agencies, a great CRM. I don't want to knock them, Nick, and all those guys are friends. and I wish them nothing but the best as well. So I don't want to just make this about agency Zoom. But I look at that and I'm like, this is bringing us closer to delivering on the real value proposition

that every independent agency actually has, right? Like we do a good job of it, but man, this is taking us even closer to that, you know, now your person, you can actually get to a point where you know that for a middle-aged man, 45-year-old guy, Sally in your office is the most, we'll have the most productive conversations versus Tammy or Johnny or Timmy, right? Like you just know. And then for for younger millennials or right now, I mean, younger is now zennials or whatever they call them, right? Maybe Tim's the best person to reach out to that person. And you, you know, eventually we'll get to that point where

you can actually be that targeted and who reaches out, when they reach out, what they're asking about, I mean, man, it just, it just blows my mind what we're going to be able to do in the not too distant future. Right. Well, and it's funny because a lot of other industries, this is old news almost. Yeah. You know what I mean? And like, it's, we were just joking about the stuff that we get excited about in insurance is like

crap that like other industries have been doing forever, you know? So, and like nothing against like, I mean, what can it's harm with care, for example, right? like how long has someone been trying to build a commercial lines reader right like seriously like i remember even the first time i pulled jack about it he just kind of shook his head and it's like yeah i heard this story before i was pretty sure the government was shutting all these things down like why else wouldn't it have happened by now yes yeah yeah yeah so like but just i think we're finally at that point where like i mean things are still kind of happening slower than they like um especially on the management system side, you know.

But I think we're finally getting to that point where, like, people like you and I are not, we're not a tech company. We don't even pretend to be tech companies, but we can cobble something together, which does what we need to do, you know. And the fact that we're there, I think we're just kind of snowball and everything that just happened very fast from this point onwards. I think that slowness, though, is really important because, you know, so many agencies, I mean, gosh, you know, when you walk into your average agency, you know, they're not using any of this stuff.

No. And they're almost afraid to use a lot of this stuff. And you're never going to win those agencies over by saying, all right, well, yeah, you got to implement these six systems and change everything about the way you do it. You need to be able to go in and say, hey, look, we're going to set up a, you know, a timeline, you know, and we're slowly going to build it. You know, I know, I've heard you on the podcast say, hey, look, there's systems I want to use and I'm a big fan of, but I'm just not there yet. You know, you've got to take it step by step. And I think that's where so many agencies go wrong in technology. They try to do everything all at once, and then they wonder why they're confused and it's networking.

Yeah, I recently did, I had the pleasure in the honor of speaking live at the Kentucky leadership conference like a few weeks ago. It was one, it was freaking amazing to be back in person talking to a live audience. It was just was so much fun. And it was like I had my, my, whatever, my energy bucket was like. like refilled, right? Just having random conversations with people that ask questions. It was awesome. But I was talking to Tara, their executive director, and we were talking about this tech stuff. And she said, you know, I brought up Tarmico was one of the tools. I brought up Don. I brought a couple of things that I used. And she was, geez, some of these tools I've never even heard up. And she said,

you know, and it wasn't, I don't mean that as a knock in any way, right? She's like, half our membership, if I go and walk into their office, they're still using like hard files and, And it's, you know, these are dusty old offices. And they do, you know, they make money. They have clients. And she's like, how do you go in and tell that person that they're doing something wrong? Right. I mean, their constituency where they live, the type of people they want to write.

Now, is that the future? Absolutely not. Right. I mean, we know that that's not the future. But, but I think the point is, I think that by having a plan, regardless of its speed, if it's a three year plan, a three month plan, whatever it is, having that plan and slowly implementing this stuff gives you such a competitive advantage that, you know, in one snapshot, you'll never be able to really fully understand it.

But if you look back, you'd be like, oh my gosh, look how much further away we are. Look how much further away we are from our competition. And I think it's noticeable. I mean, dude, I do video proposals using neoteric agent, Grant Botmas thing. And I get these emails back. my God, I've never seen anything like this before. This is, this is amazing. All it is is me for three minutes talking about someone's policy in a video.

And like you would think this was like revolutionary technology to people. And it just speaks to like, you know, the opportunity because of in general where we are as an industry. Yeah. And while it is slow and for the agents that aren't slowly implementing, it's going to change for them overnight. Yeah. They're going to wake up one morning and realize that. they're in a completely different industry than what their competition is. Yeah. And truthfully, you know, you look at like Next Insurance and what they're trying to do. You look at Cotery. You look at a Tune. You look at Next just bought AP Indigo. You have cover hound, Milo.

You know, I mean, these are the people that I compare, you know, that I compare rogue to. I mean, we're not there yet. You know, they're not, they don't have me in their list yet, but, but they will someday. And I don't know that I don't know that many agents are awake to the, and maybe the people that listen to this show probably are. So I might be preaching to the choir just because if you're willing to listen to me pontificate for as often as people do, then they're obviously aware to some extent. But these guys are, opportunities aren't even going to get to the local level pretty soon.

That's what's starting to happen is deals like your JV, right? where every deal doesn't even hit the retail market. It's just a partnership that goes to you and you guys are servicing it and doing a great job. But those opportunities aren't even hitting the market. They're going right to you. And that is happening. That is the move.

That's the move in our space is that it's not that your guy down the street who's using you today leaves you for next. That's probably not going to happen. What's going to happen is the next guy, he doesn't even get to you. because Next or Milo or Rogue or someone else picks that person off because they used this tool or, you know, they signed up for this service or they got this license. And these deals, they're just not, there's going to be less and less people who make it to the retail,

the true retail market, both on personal, commercial life. It's going to happen across the board. and being able to have the tech that allows you to create those partnerships like you did with agency Zoom and all that kind of stuff, that to me is it's something that needs to be considered moving into the future. Yeah, we always joke about how when we would walk into like a mortgage person's office or a realtor office, you know, they'd look at us like, oh, crap, here's another insurance agent. You know, you're the third guy that's walked in here this week. And, you know, fighting that ground war like that, picking it off realtor by realtor, is a difficult game. I mean, I think every agent out there has great relationships like that that have really helped them grow their agency and they're good things to have. But man, those can be difficult

to strip away. But when you can get to the top and like you said, kind of choke that pipeline a little bit, it's a heck of an advantage. Yeah. So, you know, when you guys are taking on, I want to go back to the SAA master agency thing. And you don't have to give me any intimate details. I'm just interested in general philosophy. When you look out over your agents and the things that they're struggling with and some of the places that you might see easy wins. So you walk into one of your member agencies and you're like, hey, here's an easy win for you. Here's something like what's like one or two things that you see that maybe, you know, people listening at home could be potential easy wins for something. You know, I mean, this is kind of a general question. So you can take it wherever you want.

it could be any part of the agency, but just some maybe easy wins that you've maybe started to advise or that you see just in the place that you sit. Yeah, so a few. I mean, technology is the first one, but I think we've kind of hit on that. So, you know, right now, I think that the biggest thing is everybody's complaining about people and everybody's kind of saying, man, I can't find anybody. And, you know, we're going through it right now. We've got a whole staff of people that have come back from COVID and are working in our office today. And I guarantee you, there's a few of them out there that are like, man, I miss working at home. There is an entire marketplace of CSRs out there that are being told they have to come back

to the office that aren't happy about it. And we're seeing some agents having a lot of success now hiring an agent, you know, CSR out in, you know, Missouri. Whereas before, your talent pool was kind of within 20 minutes of your office. And now what COVID has taught us is we can expand that. And the people that I know that are successfully hiring people are doing it that way. And they're finding those people because they're good, they're qualified. and all they want to do is work from home.

And if you're okay with that, man, I think you can find some really talented people right now. I think that's one of the easier wins that's out there. I love that. Hey, my producer that I hired lives in Illinois. Yeah. Right? He's in a different time zone.

And it has had negligent. I wish I had better processes. I think that's the key is if you're going to, I think you can hide poor onboarding and processes. if someone's in the office because you just be like, you know, hey, Jimmy, you don't do this. But so we, that's exposed in rogue, some of the lack of documented processes.

You haven't know, it's Andrew we were talking about. And I'm actually starting to build out that like Google Sheets thing that you showed me, which I, you know, was a simple solution to a problem, which I actually really like. But man, I agree with you. He's, I feel like I hit a home run with him. He's in a different time zone and it has had zero effect on, on our business. Yeah.

There's no need to be, you know, keeping everybody, you know, so close to you. You know, it's difficult, different to manage, you know, there's a, there's a different relationship that you have to have there, but it's certainly plausible. Yeah. Yeah, I think I completely agree with you. That's a great point. Anything else? Anything else you see hiring tech, any, anything, any other places?

Yeah, you know, I mean, so within SIA, you know, we're really pushing a lot more of the commercial aspect of that. And it goes back to exactly what we were talking about on the personal line side, where that market is changing so rapidly that, you know, making sure that you've got, you know, your foot at least, you know, solidly in the commercial lines market is really important. So that's one thing that we're doing a lot of right now is going in and teaching about just that niche marketing. All right. Look, we're going to choose two classes of business and we're going to go after them and we're going to learn as much as we can about them. And we're going to become that

person for the state of Ohio that does that, you know, maybe even for other states as you kind of branch out. but that's kind of the big one right now is going in really niche marketing in that commercial lines to be you know to build that with the business how many states are you guys in ash 30 30 have you how have you manage that if you do you have someone who specifically uh like a compliance person you know that's a big a big question that i get because we we technically are licensed i shouldn't technically we are we are licensed in 16 states and then through our relationship with india and we're basically able to write in all 50 states and i get people who ask like how do you what if you sign the wrong document here there and and it hasn't really been a struggle i mean we have a basic list of

you know the documents that need to be signed in a state it hasn't been that much of a struggle have you found that oh yeah no it's it's a it's painful i mean it's one of those things where like i always that that, you know, if somebody could pass a law that allows us to get just like a national insurance license. Oh, yeah. The licensing part is brutal. Yeah, yeah, for sure. That person, yeah, I would vote for that person to be present tomorrow. So that, I mean, but, so we, we've got an office manager that handles all that. Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's, it's almost impossible to not have somebody that specializes in it. And I know there's a lot of companies out there that do it. Yeah, I'll give a big shout out to who we use. I mean, it's, it's an expense because

you're essentially paying someone to do this. But Ilsa, I-L-S-A, INC, I think is their website. But if you, Ilsa, insurance licensing something, S-A, you know, I can't remember exactly what it is. But, man, we, I send them an email and I say, Illinois. And a week later, we're licensed in Illinois. And that has been a godsend. I mean, obviously, I'm hoping that they don't mess anything up. They don't seem to. They've been doing it for a while. It seems to. They've been doing it for a while. They seem to do a great job. So that's why I'm recommending them. But the other side of it is it's not in-house.

And you are, you know, you're paying an expense for it. It's not like you're just going to, you know, NIPR and getting the license. I mean, someone is doing the work and there's a cost to it. But that's who we're using for it. Yeah. And I won't mention names. But I know an agency that went through a fee with the state because, you know, he got his non-resonance license and he was there.

But he also had to go to the Secretary of State. and register his name there. And, you know, how would you know that? You know, it's like, I, you know, that's not something that I would know. Yeah. You got a, you got a $500 fine because you didn't do it. I'll tell you that that is, again, I'm, again, why it sounds like this. I'm, Ilsa is not a sponsor of the show. I just use them just so everyone is aware. But, um, but they, they taught me that. I was on the phone with them and they're like, hey, do you want to do the secretary of state file with secretary of state and have us send any tax documents? And I said, I was like, well, is that, you know, I, I never heard of that.

before, you know, I said that sounds weird. Is that really necessary? And they're like, well, it's not necessary, but you could get a fine. And, you know, I basically just said, you know, whatever, whatever it take, I want to, I don't ever want to get anything in the mail that says I owe anyone money if I can avoid it. And if an extra, whatever, a couple hundred bucks helps me avoid it. I'm going to do it. So that, that was something that I was, there's also fingerprinting in a couple states that, you know, is difficult. And a lot of states have like these ancillary documents that you may think you're licensed, but if you don't send the documents in a certain amount of time, then it avoids the license. And so you're sending your license to

carriers saying you're licensed in a state, but really you're technically not. Sorry, Vermont, but we have sense fixed that problem. So if anyone from Vermont is listening, we're good now. So it's, it is why I agree with the licensing part. The, the, I guess when I said it wasn't difficult, I meant the writing and managing of insurance policies in those states hasn't been as difficult as I thought it would be. But yeah, the licensing is brutal. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I mean, there's always that, you know, concern about, you know, hey, geez, you know, is there something in that state that I don't know a ton about? And we've always been a little bit, you know, hesitant about doing that one-off, you know, sometimes for policies.

Yeah. But, you know, I think on the, on the whole, I don't think it's that big of a risk. And, you know, if you've got business more often than not, you're going to try to find a way to write it. Yeah, I agree. So, you know, I want to be respectful of your guys' time. And this has been a tremendous conversation. I'm, thank you for taking the time with me. This has been great. You know, I'll leave it. And I'm interested in both of your perspectives and you're not allowed to say ditto. But just the next three to five years, I'm going to give you just a little bit of context. I see this as a defining period for the next 10 to 20 years in our business.

I think we're in a transition moment. I think we're in a true transition moment from analog to digital. And actually, I just had a conversation with Nigel Walsh, the head of Google Insurance, which will be coming out. It'll have come out actually before this conversation. But so Google is going to last up to that guy. We're much smarter than that guy. No, well, so he basically what he said was there are two things happening.

There's digitizing, which is a traditional agency becoming digital. and then there's digitalizing, which is basically the same word but with an AL before the ING. And that is native digital businesses. And he said, what's happening is traditional are digitizing and more and more digital agencies are coming into existence and gaining share. So we're in this like tumultuous period. And that's why I think the next three to five years are defining. You're going to define where you fall in the.

the next 20 in this period. So obviously to me it seems like you guys were on the right path, but, you know, do you see yourself positioning? You know, are you thinking about that? And is there any future move that we haven't talked about that you see coming that you can talk about that will set yourselves up? Sounds like a question for you, Andrew. I think what's funny. So I I 100% agree with you, but I think at the same time, it's going to sound weird coming from at the same time, you got to remember that like our current client base, like we have an office that's like, what, an hour west of us? And it's funny because those people compared to like people here, do business completely different. Like completely differently. The type of marketing you got

to do them is different. Like everything is different out there. So I think there's definitely a future that we'll talk about in second, but I think currently you can't forget, you can't just go digital and forget everybody else. You know what I mean? Because I think I, 90% of clients out there still do business the whole way that's what they're used to. You know what I mean? So even if you're rolling in new things, you can't just like pull a plug one day and plug it into a tech out and expect all your clients who just want to do business like that. You know what I mean? So I think there does need to be some thoughts put into that. even when we roll out stuff internally, right?

So a lot of what we're talking about with agency Zoom, like I don't even, we're just beginning to kind of use that to manage current clients. You know what I mean? Like we didn't even have a book uploaded because we don't, we've been doing business with like some of these people for 20 years. You know what I mean? We don't want to completely change our type of communication with these people

without making sure that it's flawless. You know, like I'm, don't get wrong. We're going to make mistakes, but like, I'm trying to eliminate this mistakes and have the mistakes. be with my 1% of new business clients and not like my entire book, you know. But as far as the future, I mean, I think there's so much crazy stuff. Like I'm super interested.

Like someone's going to figure out a way to leverage a lot of what's going on with like, you know, like the Bitcoin. Like, you know what I mean? I know I listened to like Cessorumbos thing the other day. But I think it's like, and I don't know that that's the answer, but someone's going to figure out some way to kind of tokenize all these transactions. And it's going to be really interesting. When that happens, I think that'll trigger a lot of the giant symbol effect to like all the way down the chain.

So I think that's something you've got to be ready for. And just kind of like evolving with your clients, you know? Like I don't think any of us sitting here can say like, hey, this is how we're going to do business in five years because I guarantee if all three of us were sitting together five years ago and look where we are now. Like none of us would be like probably. anything that we're doing right yeah but i i just think you've got to be nimble right you know you've got there's a couple of things that jack and i always joke about that like we don't want to be the first thing to try like we're never going to be the first person try branding phone system and we're never going to be the first person to try a management system to be honest with you because those are

two things that we just need to kind of make phone calls and to store our policy information right yeah the dummies like me try it and then see what breaks right exactly exactly well we're can be first adopters for those things, but lots of these like ancillary technologies that are able to connect. I think the big thing with the next step is that like you notice that all these companies that we've talked about, with literally ever seen one of them, even better agency, I think, like they're able to integrate with these other third parties. I think there's a pipeline for a long time about having one management system which does everything you need, you know, and I think that's like a bunch of nonsense. The problem is that, like, even if you build that,

you're not going to be the best at anything. You know what I mean? Like, you're not going to going to be the best year around. You're not going to be the S&S. You know, you're not going to have the best technology in the back end with analytics. Like, you're just not going to have all of that. So in order for you to take that step, either, like, I think eventually Jack and I, like, we had Griffin on staff. So, like, we almost had, like, a tech person in the office. But I almost think that's something between that tech person and that marketing person in office. Those are, like, the two biggest additions with we've made, I think, you know? And that's really kind of playing in head because like we don't really have 40 hours of tech stuff for somebody doing in the office.

You know what I mean? But the hope is that we're going to have them, you know, and the hope is that we might get a couple of them, you know, that would be an extremely important position. So just trying to position yourself in a way to like whatever comes out, you got to be ready to adapt and try to figure out how to work, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. Yeah, I mean, it's a big, you know, I guess I could say concern moving forward is what that's going to look like and we think about it all the time. You know, when you talk about digitalizing agencies, I think that there's an aspect of a skill set there that most agents just don't have. And, you know, I always say this when I listen to podcasts like yours, there'll be people on there

and they'll talk about, oh, we built this platform and, you know, it does this or it does that. I'm like, man, I can't do that. That's not who I am. That's not what my staff is capable of doing. If I'm going to build an agency like that, I got to, you know, fire all these people and bring a bunch of programmers. You know, it's almost like a different world. So, you know, I think right now we're taking that digitizing route. And I think that it's something that we can do and it's something that we can do well. And I, you know, and I am a big believer in, you know, the idea of, you know, community. You know, when I first started in the industry, I mean, I never thought I'd end up in insurance. And I got good advice from a friend of mine that said, you know, hey, look, you know,

good people that are going to change the world are going to work in every industry. You know, you're going to have to do it wherever you're at. You can do good things. And, you know, so from a community standpoint, we're really big in the community, and we want to make sure that we're a big part of that. And that's part of the joy in it for me. And I so I think that there's always going to be that aspect of, you know, being an agency that can deliver a product that feels very digitized to my customer, that feels the same as if they went directly with the Hartford. but is also a member of their community or a member of a community. And they look and say, hey, look, man, that guy's doing some really good stuff for his community.

Those are the type of people I want to work with. And so that's what I think it is. I think you need to build it digitized, but it needs to still be a brand. It's still got to be somebody that people want to work with. I think that's the perfect way to end this. I couldn't agree with you more. I think you're right on it, man. Well, hey, guys, this has been tremendous.

I appreciate you sharing time. I mean, there's a lot of dollars per hour being. being blown right here. I mean, the brain trust of, of Her Vic Insurance here on the podcast. No, I, and all jokes aside, I do appreciate it. I love you sharing your expertise. I think it's tremendous. And I think that, you know, it's these kind of conversations, I think help just incrementally, you know, give people little ideas, little nuanced concepts, little turns of phrases that help open their eyes to what's available to them if they want that. And I just appreciate it. So thanks so much.

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