Finding Peak w/ Ryan Hanley - Basilios Manousogiannakis on Employers Evolution to Tech-Forward Carrier

Episode Date: September 23, 2020

Spartan philosophy, built in the black-ops lab of business: https://www.findingpeak.comFinding Peak podcast: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanleyBasilios Manousogiannakis, Client Relationship Manager and Product Owner at Employers Insurance joins the podcast to explain how Employers have evolved from a failing State-owned single state carrier into a national powerhouse investing in technology across the spectrum of the insurance marketplace. Get more://ryanhanley.com/Recommended Tools for GrowthOpusClip: #1 AI video clipping and editing tool: https://link.ryanhanley.com/opusRiverside: HD Podcast & Video Software | Free Recording & Editing: https://link.ryanhanley.com/riversideWhisperFlow: Never waste time typing on your keyboard again: https://link.ryanhanley.com/whisperflowCaptionsApp: One app for all your social media video creation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/captionsappGoHighLevel: It's time to take your business workflow to the Next Level: https://link.ryanhanley.com/gohighlevelPerspective.co: The #1 funnel builder for lead generation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/perspective--Episodes You Might Enjoy:From $2 Million Loss to World-Class Entrepreneur: https://lnk.to/delkFrom One Man Shop to $200M in Revenue: https://lnk.to/tommymelloIs Psilocybin the Gateway to Self-Mastery? https://lnk.to/80upZ9This show is part of the Unplugged Studios Network — the infrastructure layer for serious creators. 👉 Learn more at https://unpluggedstudios.fm.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Hey, this is Michael Rosenbaum. Hey guys, Tom Welling. Look, we've both played heroes. And we both played villains. But in the real life, there are no reshoots, no stuntmen, or sequels. We all make mistakes. We're all human. Making one bad decision can not only land you in jail, but could also put yourself and other people around you in serious risk.

Be smart. Make a plan. Catch a ride. Stay put. Don't let a high moment turn into a lifetime of regret. This holiday season, be your own hero. If you feel different, you drive different. Drive high, get a DUI.

Paid for by NHTSA. Hiring isn't just about finding someone willing to take the job. You need the right person with the right background who can move your business forward. If you want candidates who truly match what you're looking for, trust Indeed sponsored jobs. With Indeed sponsored jobs, your post stands out to quality candidates who actually fit the role. According to Indeed data, 90% are more likely to be hired and trusted by 1.6 million companies. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more reasonable.

Now with Indeed sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To help your job get the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcats 13. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcats 13 right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash Podcast 13. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, do it the right way with Indeed. Happy holidays. Want to give your host a gift? Consider subscribing, rating, reviewing the show this holiday season it really helps the show grow from all of us at believe have a merry Christmas everyone and a happy holiday rude laboratory in the basement of

his home hello everyone and welcome back to the show today we have a tremendous guest someone who has worked inside both carriers and agency technology throughout his entire career brings a tremendous amount of expertise someone who i've gotten to know over the last, you know, I'd say online, the last few years, gotten to know personally, you know, basically since Rogue launched, I'm talking to Basilios Manuso Giannakis, who is a product owner and client relationship manager for employers. Employers is a company that I am appointed with. They're a company that I believe in.

I love the way they're attacking the market. And as Rogue moves more and more towards a work comp first, approach and really diving into workers' compensation as an expertise and becoming more than just a provider of the coverage, but really a true advisor of workers' compensation insurance. And everything that goes along with that, employers is a big part of my future. And just, Basilio and I, we've just had some great conversations. Like, he'll call him me to say, see how things are going and we'll end up talking for 45 minutes about all different kinds of things happening in the industry.

and I wanted to have him on just to talk about employers and their mindset. And I think there's some awesome stuff in here. I absolutely think you're going to enjoy this conversation. But before we get to that conversation, I want to give a big shout out to my friends at Better Agency. The team Better Agency is really changing the game when it comes to insurance-specific CRMs and just CRMs in general. But I have officially made the move to Better Agency.

it is a it's it's really becoming the the it's the first place I log into every day better agency is the first tool that I log into every day is I go into the tool and I start working through you know whatever tasks I have communications that have come in overnight I'm making sure that I have my sales pipeline up to date that I'm working through my service pipeline and it you know the fact that it connects to Zapier and they're building all kinds of direct ingrations all the time it I really believe that better agency is on the path to what an insurance, how an insurance agency actually operates, like building a tool that matches how they actually operate, not the way, you know, that we've kind of had agency management systems forced down our throat. Like better versions of

the same old mouse trap is what I feel like we're constantly given. And I feel like better agency is a better way to run your agency. And I'm, and I've just, really enjoy the product and I it's an honor that they're a sponsor of this show go to better agency.io that's better agency dot I oh check them out get a demo even if you're not in the market for a new CRM system in your agency it's good to know what this tool does because I have a feeling you're going to be hearing more and more and more about it and eventually you're going to want to know So go get the demo, know what's out there. If you're in the market, I love using the tool.

I just do. And so it's great that I can both be a user every day with Rogue Risk and have them be a sponsor of the show. It works out really well because I love sharing products with you that I believe in, and I believe in Better Agency. So check out BetterAgency.com. And one last thing, before we get on to Basilio's, I just want to say thank you for listening.

to this show. I love you for listening to the show. It has been such a pleasure to roll out episodes on a more consistent basis. Big shout out to Cass and his podcasting service where he helps podcasters get podcasts like this out to the world. If it wasn't for that service, this podcast wouldn't be possible. But I just thank you guys. I love you for listening. All right. Now let's do it. Mr. Hanley, what's going on? Hey, what's up? I have just been enamored by the disposition of both of you, and I've really enjoyed our conversations for sure, but of your company in general, right? Like employers is, it feels like one of the companies leading the charge in the idea of coming to the agent, right, and the consumer for that matter.

but particularly it feels like you guys are instead of saying i'm in a position is a different way i think the belief for a long time has been that the carriers made agents come to them right here's how we like to do business here's our box if you want to play in this box that's great if you don't want to play in this box then have a nice day go go someplace else and it feels very much like you you guys are one of the carriers that is starting to say hey how do you like to play what is you want to play in a circle, we'll help you make a circle. You like triangles, we'll help you build one of those two. That's fine. And maybe I'm off maybe I'm not, but that has been my perception of you guys. And I just wanted to kind of talk about that in whatever ways you're

able to because I feel like it is the future. And I just want to dig into it. Definitely appreciate you kind of having us on, having me on. I mean, I think you hit, I mean, you hit it. So kind of one of our guiding principles is that we are going to meet our customers wherever they want to transact business, right? And so that customer for us could be the agent, could be the business owner, could be the claimant. So I mean, customer is a wide spectrum for us, our own employees, right? We're feeling that now in COVID. And so I wouldn't say gone are the days of saying, hey, come to our portal and rate. That's still very much drives our engine. But we very much recognize the importance of being Omnichannel,

because our customers are experiencing that in every other aspect of their life, right? And, I mean, the talk track within the industry kind of lines up with it. What I, you know, really proud of employers was, in my opinion, and this is one of the many reasons that, you know, I came to employers is because they were leading that charge. I mean, so my prior life, you know, I had a short stint with with a tech vendor that catered to carriers. And so I would be on the other side of the table talking with these, the national carriers, careers, regionals, talking about what their strategy is, particularly around digital distribution, right? And a lot of it is, yeah, we're talking about it or we're working on it. And employers was like,

dude, we've been doing this for like two years now. And I was kind of taken aback because I always wrote employers off as kind of like a sleepy monoline comp carrier, right, that's not really going to make the move. They're not going to innovate. And was, I mean, just blindsided quite honestly and proved wrong. And so, you know, that for me was kind of like eye-opening. You know, I think carriers get a bad rep around how they perceive the agent. I've never been at a carrier where they say the agent isn't relevant. It's always been the agent is relevant. It's just how do we empower them? It's been kind of a little bit of disconnect. And so I think with what's happening in our current environment and then just the capabilities that we have in terms of digital, we are trying our best

to empower our, I mean, at the core of it, our agents are our distribution to our customer, our end customer, which is the policyholder. So whatever we can do to power, power that, we're going to do our best. Yeah. So, you know, one of the reasons why, that I, I had, you know, was very interested in working with you guys. Obviously, Rogue is a, you know, comp is what we're doing. And while COVID is, goes on nearly taking its toll on our jumpstart, I, I obviously see. big things for our relationship in the future. And I'm very excited about our relationship. Just so everyone listening at home knows I'm an appointed employer's agency. And like a monoline

comp carrier, right? Why? You know, I think before I really got into commercial or before I got into commercial of any substance or really started to even dive into comp really deeply, I was like, why would I want to even think about partnering someone who only writes one product? Like, do you think that does that help give, do you feel like your agents get a competitive advantage because you guys are able to dissect? Do you, like what do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of taking in a carrier that just writes one product? And obviously it's an incredibly important product. There's a lot more to it.

I don't mean to diminish it. but versus say, you know, the Hartford's and the travelers who, you know, again, not a knock on them, but they write, you know, a huge spectrum of stuff. And that's a great question. I mean, I'll admit that I was guilty of asking the same question. So being on the carrier side, right? So most of my career has been on the carrier side. My biggest blind spot is I've never been an agent. So I've got, you know, there's areas that I'm continuing to learn from that perspective. But I had that same question. I mean, I've worked with, you know, multi-line national car carriers out there, right? And so I don't want to call it indoctrinated, but I had this mindset of,

is there really a need for a monoline comp care? And what I've learned in my time here at employers is, and it aligns with my own kind of personal philosophy is you've got to double down on what you do well versus trying to be a jack of all trades. For us, we're going to focus in on this line of business. We're going to be the best at it. We're going to offer up as many relevant solutions to our customers, again, agents, claimants, policyholders, et cetera, and be best in class. And you know what? A lot of folks can say that. I've seen it in action versus an outsider and now being an insider. I mean, you just talk in the past 18 months, Ryan, we've released over 20 agency-facing technology solutions. Think of that. I mean, that's like wild to hear for a carrier to do, right?

I mean, agile is starting to take its place in our industry, and so I think it's good because it's going to continue to force us to iterate and innovate. So where before, you know, it was kind of a waterfall like, okay, we're going to take this project on and in 18 months hope it's right. And you kind of find out on month 18, but, you know, we're already outdated. So it allows us not only just from a technology perspective, but from claims handling, from underwriting, we're only doing one line of business. And so we can put out a more competitive product with a higher value proposition.

for workers comp. And so I think the testament there is, for us, you know, in the midst of a crisis, we are having record-breaking months in the terms of quotes and binds. And so that to me is like, I won't say the end of all, but a testament itself, like there is a consistent need for monoline comp carriers out there. Because if there wasn't, you know, I don't think that would be happening. And to your point, the multi-line carriers that are out there would continue to capture that space. Yeah, I have definitely found and I'm continuing to find him. I don't want to act like, you know, I've been doing this for 30 years. You know, but I have found that in focusing on comp more and really learning the product and starting to get a feel for where certain things go. And the comp to me is, I think of it almost as a separate thing than the rest of the package.

Right. I think a lot of people think of it as part of the package. there's the bop or the you know your package policy then you have your auto and you try to put all that with the same carrier and I I don't even look at it that way anymore like that thought doesn't even cross my mind I think I really I think first the first thing that always comes to my mind is where where does the comp go what is this class of business who wants this who's going to be the best fit you know who's got the best pricing for for this particular line of business um who's going to be willing to work with them and and I look at that first and then the rest of the business kind of falls into place. But I think separating out and really, and, you know,

there are more and more harbingers of quality comp work that are starting to speak up. David Carruthers is a big one. Mike McDonnell in California is another big one. Tom Tams in Minnesota is another big one. These are voices that are starting to talk to why agents in general need to take comp more seriously. I think this will be an idea that's starts over the next few years to really permeate our industry is giving comp its due because I don't think it certainly wasn't taught to me in that way. The way it was taught to me was you just rate it with whoever you'd write the pop with is who you write the comp with and that's end of story. And I just don't think that's the answer. I don't think that's the right thing for your

customers. Listen, I might be biased, but comp is protecting the business's most important asset, right? And that's its people and its employees. It ceases to exist. without them. And so I completely agree. I mean, I think, you know, again, there's a little bit of bias on my end because I'm with the monologue comp carrier, but I've always believed that. I mean, that's part of the reason I'm here at this company is people first, everything else is follow. And you want to make sure that when your employee is injured on the job, that they're getting the best in class service because it won't necessarily reflect upon the agent to that claim holder, right? It's going to reflect upon who they work for. And so if they have a bad experience with

carrier, they're not going to say, oh, you know, the carrier, you know, ruined it for me or the agent ruined it for me. It's going to be, hey, Mr. and Mrs. Boss, what the heck? Yeah. Like, I'm working for you and you're not taking care of me. Yeah. Yeah. My cheap ass boss won't pay for the good insurance and now I'm getting jerked around and, you know, that kind of stuff. And yes, I completely agree. So you had mentioned that you guys have rolled out 20 agent facing technologies or agent supporting technologies, are you able to talk about what some of them are, maybe indirectly or whatever? Just to give people an idea, what does that mean? Like, I think there's probably a lot of people listening that are like, what does that even

mean? Because the bar for what age is expected is so low that, you know, what most of them are is, oh, hey, we refaced our portal. Or, oh, we moved our port. You can now log into our portal with a web browse. that was made in the 2000s, you know, something like that. And I think that bar like is very low. Some of the things that I see you guys doing are, you know, today, cutting edge, you know,

right there technology. So anything or any capabilities that you're willing to talk about, I'm super interested in sharing with the audience. I think there's quite a bit that we could probably share. You know, some of it is what you hit on. We just had to do a refresh, right? So one of the key drivers for us is how do we create a quoting experience for our customers that delights them, right? And build it off of user and agency feedback.

So the one thing that employers does really well that I've yet to see with other carriers, and this is not meant to be a knock or I've not maybe been visible to that side of the business. Whereas with those other carriers is we sit down with our agents twice a year across all geographies. So you're talking 50-ish meetings happening twice a year where we're asking them, hey, what's working well, where are you getting stuck as an agent, and then what do we capitalize on? And then we hold that meeting six months later. And that's like our moment of truth. Like, did we actually do anything with what you told us to do? And so that's what we build a lot of our technology and our innovation around. So one of the key things that they were telling us is like, listen, employers, you've got to be able to send us a quote back quicker than you currently do

with a heck of a lot less information. Right. So I want a yes as quickly as possible or know as quickly as possible, and I don't think that's uncommon across the industry. So we spent a ton of time focusing on revamping our agency and our quoting portal to do just that. So what historically still blows my mind, took an agent 20 minutes, maybe quote with us, now can do it in less than, you know, anywhere from 20 seconds to two minutes. And within the API world, six to eight seconds. So that's one of the key things. And then we continue to iterate, but we're focusing a lot of our efforts on is investing in technologies maybe that we're not necessarily building. So one partner that we both work with is Tarmica, right? And so multi-carrier rating platform really focused in on

streamlining small business for the agent so they can focus on the right carrier, right coverage while improving, you know, that profit margin that continues to seem to, it seems to deteriorate small business. We have that. And kind of one of our core principles there is, is not only we wanting to offer our agent's choice in insurance coverage, but also choice in technology solutions. So there's others out there that we partner with as well. So not every agent is the same. So what might work well for rogue risk in Tarmica may not work, you know, well for an agent down the street. And they might see another solution out there. So we want to make sure, and this goes back to what we referenced earlier, is just meeting our customers where they want to do business. And so that's critically

important with us. So we've rolled out multiple API integrations. We updated our appetite checker to do some really slick things within the quoting process. It's a wide spectrum of what we're doing in terms of agency-facing solutions, whether it's quoting, self-service capabilities, post-bying stuff, payment plans. It's all about trying to meet our customers where and how they want to do business. Yeah, and I love that. So one, I'll say the employer's rating platform for comp is probably the best in the business right now. It's super easy. It kicks you out early if it's not a good risk. I mean, that is probably the worst part of rating systems. And there is a company that I took on. It's the last full spectrum carrier that I took on that I hate. I hate it. I have nothing

against the carrier, but it takes me like seven screens to figure out whether or not they're going to write it or not. And then the other part is it'll go all the way through, give you a quote, and then have the last thing be referred to underwriter, you've just spent 40 minutes plugging all this nonsensical information in to the system, hit refer to underwriter, and then you'll get some random underwriter that you don't even know will be like declined. And you're like, oh my God,

if I could reach through the screen and strangle that human being right now, I would do it for a couple seconds at least, try not to leave a mark, you know what I mean? Like I would do it just to get, because I just spent 40, like you could have told me, you could have told me on the very first screen,

hey we don't really write that class sorry man you could have said that you didn't you waited until an email a day later after 45 minutes of quoting and that concept um is really it keeps it keeps me away from writing business and i actually told them i had the uh the marketer called me and said hey how's it going whatever um you know and she said uh she said you know we were we were hoping for a little more production out of you and i said to be honest with you i'm i'm hitting my agency numbers I just can't. I said, I hate using your system.

I hate it. I hate it. I absolutely hate it. I, that's why you don't get business for me. She's like, what? You know, agents love our system. I'm like, you know that's not true.

You said that. You are lying to me right now. I was like, because I can give you the name with six other carriers whose system is way better. So long story short, I do. It's very,

you can, tell someone thought through the process and you can tell that you got feedback from agents because it does work in a very logical way, which is nice, nice. So what do you think is it about employers or just the industry in general that you guys have this mentality or belief system of getting out into these different spaces? Because a lot of times the thought process before would be, well, if you're with a tarmaca, then you could never be with a, uh, a Semse or a bold penguin or one of the others.

Like, we're going to pick one and that's the one we're going to work with. And then the problem is, you know, an agency could, you know, because of their agency management system or some other thing, maybe they just can't get to that product. And now they don't have that functionality. I feel like it is a fairly unique belief structure for you guys to be very Switzerland-esque in your integration with other with other companies. Do you know, what, what is it about your culture or what you guys are trying to do? Yeah, I mean, I think you just hit on it right there, right?

It's our culture and that was really driven. And I'm going to plug in a good friend of mine, Brian Fowalcheck. He highlights this in his book, Future of Insurance. It was really driven from the top down. So our senior leaders prior to my time really doubled down on this mentality, right? And our CEO had to make sure that all the leaders that he brought on board bought into that vision. And part of it is also, I mean, we are a comp care. So we have to get creative about how we get to the customer and how we get to our agents.

I mean, it's not the first thing that every business owner thinks of. So we need to insert ourselves in a relevant decision or relevant buying event. And it may be the traditional process of working through an agent. It may be powered by an agent with a direct consumer kind of channel. We're willing to take that risk on because we recognize, you know, there's going to be winners in the space. And we want to be there when those winters happen. And we also recognize the risk of maybe partnering with some that might not take off. or they get acquired.

So we have to make sure that we're there in the moment. But at the end of the day, it comes back to our culture, believing in recognizing what's happening in our environment today, right? We can no longer continue to do business the way we've done historically. Our customers at its core, the policyholders, claimants, business owners are so used to doing business and other aspects of their life. And they're not going to go, oh, well, hey, I'm about to go buy insurance. I totally expect it's going to be rough on me, which is, it might be.

be the case, but it doesn't justify it anymore. We can't make that painful. And so that for us is important to meet our agents and our customers wherever they're, they're going to do. I heard a while back, someone say, you meet one agent, you've met all agents. I could say that's the furthest from the truth. Yeah. Like, and so we've got to make sure that our solutions meet every agent in their unique needs. Yeah. You know, that is probably the thing that has changed the most in my mentality over the course of my career. When I first started speaking, say, well, we'll say since I first started interacting with our agencies about a decade ago, obviously this year I'm not doing speaking gigs, which kind of hurts

my heart because I love doing it. But this would have been 10 years of since my first gig was 2010 in San Francisco. The biggest thing that has changed from that moment to this moment is what you just said. 10 years ago, I said to myself, I don't understand insurance agency is an insurance agency. Why aren't we all operating through the best practices and doing these things? things because you could give someone the answer to a question and they would look at you and be like, that doesn't work for me. And at the time, I would say to myself, then you're the problem. And what I've learned is that's not necessarily true. There's so many levers in an agency. So many levers.

You know, you can put two digital agencies next to each other. They run completely different. Right. You old school local agencies, they run completely different. Carriers, technology, people, you know, just where you're physically located. I mean, all these things, the state you're in, because, you know, do you, you know, where I'm at, you know, I'm, I'm, what, 12 minutes from the Vermont border, 25 minutes from Massachusetts border and maybe 35 minutes from Connecticut. So like, if you do the classic 50 mile radius around my agency, I technically have four states that I can pull from. Yeah. And, you know,

just all these different aspects, I think, um, today, I think it's very, to the technologists and to the carriers and to the vendors that are serving the agency for us, I think that's one of the key thoughts is, I think you've really brought up two key thoughts, this idea of meeting your customers where they are and that every agency is actually different and needs to be able to integrate your solution in the way that fits them is how you get in. And if you create friction, you don't get in. Yeah, and I think there's, there's power behind consistency. So I think that's where some of the old school thought comes from. You know, the running joke when I was back in my underwriting days was kind of the same

thing. You put 10 underwriters in a room. You're going to get 10 different decisions. Well, technology is allowing that to be more, the decision to become more consistent, right? But you're still talking, everyone's unique. They operate in a different way. And then, again, my blinds, I've never been an agent, but at the same time, I imagine you want to present and provide unique value proposition because if every agent was the same, there wouldn't be 30-some-out, 30-some-odd thousand agencies out there, right? I, you know, so the underwriter thing, I'm interested in your take having Ben one,

I tend to gravitate towards human underwriters. And to me, when the machines do too much underwriting, I start, to me, it really, it limits the value proposition, right? because I'll give you a case in point. I had an account that I'm working on. It's about $5.7 million in building value. It's an LRO, so I'm working with the building owner, and I'm working through this case.

And the computer gave me a number, and I knew that that wasn't the number that I needed. I needed it to be a little bit lower. And there were companies that would go, nope, that's the number, have a nice number. have a nice day. And then there are a company, like, and then like, I ultimately went with New York Central Mutual and I'm working with them for like, and I called my underwear. We're on the phone for like an hour. And we're talking about the building and I'm sending her pictures of the

building and we're talking about these different things. And I was like, you know, I was like, this guy's own this building for 10 years. They have one $3,000 loss that that's making the machine push the rate up. But the machine doesn't know that he fixed the roof and now that ice dams aren't a problem anymore, you know, all this stuff. And she comes back and she goes, okay, we can, you know, I'm okay taking the IRPM from this to this. And, you know, a machine couldn't do that for me. You know, I needed to talk to an underwriter. And I now, just logically, I'm going to start going to them more because I know, not just price, but the idea that I can actually pitch an account and say, look, this looks, this is something that you don't like. But really, this thing isn't

never going to happen again because they've done this thing over here and I can't tell the computer that like do you see do you see the need for the human underwriting still do you see it coming back do you ever see there being a renaissance to a certain extent or is it only going to get more machine driven um kind of does that make sense my question what I'm asking you yeah I think I follow and I think um so my personal perspective I can't speak you know for others is And I've shared this in other forums is the same kind of opinion that I have for our agency partners, right, is we're bringing in technology to empower our agents to have more human interaction, right? And so some of the challenges that we see on the agency side are the same challenges our underwriting partners we're having, right?

They're spending too much time on the administrative or legacy processes that are prohibiting them from really focusing in on what you highlighted, right? let's sit down with the agent. Let's talk about pre-qualification, why this risk is right. And then let the technology take some of that work off my desk. And then we can have that discussion. Like, hey, let's reevaluate this versus right now. A lot of it's like, hey, I've got to go in and manually rate. I've got to go and pull in different resources.

So I wholly believe that technology is only going to improve our industry as a whole because it's going to allow us to become humans again and advisors again, that that makes sense. Yes. It makes, yes, 100%. I had the, I don't know if you listened to the show, but I had the CEO of ZyWave on because ZyWave is building out, um, this tool called My Edge, which I think is, uh, it's really good tool, by the way. It is unbelievably cool. And the vision, kind of the, the, the vision is even cooler. It's, it really is. And I have, you know, just so everyone knows, I, I pay for it. I don't get paid for, for, this isn't a, as I ever time. I paid for the tool, but I dropped insurance X-Dates for my edge. I just, I see what they're doing. It's amazing. And what I said to Jason, because he said, you know, he asked me something. I don't know if I said this on the show or if it were after, but I just said, dude, why can't I just push a button and all this ridiculously stupid

which I consider it stupid when a carrier says to me, your building was built in 1985? When was the electrical done? 2014. Oh, you're going to fight me on that? We're going to go, you're going to go check and see if it was 2012 or when was it? It's a stupid question to ask. Because at some point, there needs to be, if we, I mean, this is when frontline underwriting used to matter. I'm looking at the building and I'm telling you, it could be 2014 or 2010 or 2018. The wiring in the building is fine.

The wiring is not a problem. Why then do I have to? Do you think that I'm ever even going to ask? the owner of a $6 million building. Hey, man, you know, when was your plumbing last done? And he's going to go, really? We're talking about the plumbing. That's what we're talking about right now.

Like, we're not talking about some of the things that actually matter and could actually cause losses. Like, you know what I mean? Like if a gasket burst, a gasket burst. But he didn't redo the plumbing since the building was built ever. No one ever does that. So why can't we just, and this is what I said to Jay. I go the day that there's just a button for stupid information,

we can call the stupid information button, we just go flip, and it just sucks all that information into the system. Boom. Now what I can do is instead of those silly questions, I could jump on the phone for five minutes with my underwriter on every single account and say, here's why I think you should write this.

Or, hey, just give me a regular price for this because I don't even really want this one, but I do think that it's important that I get a quote from you. And or let's go get this one. What can we do? What do you need for me to go get this account? This is one I really want. There's some long tail value for us here. Let's do that. Like the cord form nonsensical information. Now, there's important information too, but I'm just these databases and being able to pull this stuff in. I wish I could talk to my underwriter on every account, but it's impossible when you're spending

45 minutes collecting nonsensical information. Like how far away is the building from a fire hydrant? that piece of information is available online. There's no reason for a human to have to transfer that onto an accord form and then send that accord form to someone. There's just no reason for that. Yeah, no, I can't debate that. I mean, I think it was that applied net. We were actually on a panel talking about this, right?

Like, do you think our customers really know when their, you know, electrical was updated? They might, but they're of the opinion like, hey, you tell me, you go, it should be out there why don't you go get it, right? And so like solutions like that you talked about, I mean, historically, the underwriters had to go out and manually pull all this information. So as this gets better, I'm very bullish that we're going to really key in on being advisors and having the discussions that you talked about. I mean, that was that was what I loved most about my job when I was out in the field underwriting and meeting with my agency partners. It's okay, hey, let's go get business together, right? Because that underwriter has that local

knowledge, should know it more intimately. And so they can bring that value back to the agent saying, hey, I mean, one thing I would always do is be like, hey, I'm part of this church. Are you guys, have you guys approached the board? Right. If not, let's talk about this. This is something I want to write. And I think more of those discussions are going to start to happen. Yeah, I agree with you. I would, I would love to have just tighter relationships with my underwriters. And for some of the carriers, it's developing. I mean, obviously, I'm been in six months. You've been. as you go, you develop. But I just,

I think that is the key. And so many agents miss that. So many just don't even know who their underwriter is. And I'll tell you, the companies that give you the random rolling underwriter, not that that model doesn't work,

but I will say there's a disconnect there that makes it tough. And it doesn't mean you need to talk to the same person every time, but it's nice to have a point person or a standard point of contact. Or a strong, strong marketing rep connection who you can say you can go to and say here's what I'm trying to get

done who do I need to talk to and they can point you but when you got to call a phone tree to get to your underwriter and it's like dial one for sales and it's like sales what I need to talk to somebody about an account and then you start parenting zero like isn't there a Seinfeld episode or something where you start hitting zero hoping you get an operator um okay so um so from where you sit and And I know you're involved in a lot of these projects and you're dealing with, with agencies and stuff too. And like, what do you see coming? Like when you just forecast out, you know, and pick whatever idea is the most interesting

to you. There's no real agenda to this question other than I'm just interested as a carrier, as working for a carrier, the unique kind of situation you're in with the culture you guys have, you have your fingers out and stuff. I know people are coming and talking to you. I know you're talking to other people. nothing specific. Just what are some of the bigger ideas or ideas that you see coming down the pipe that people should just either think are cool or start to prepare for or anything like that?

Yeah, man, that's a loaded question. Wow. You know, I'll kind of speak through one one lens and that's just because we live and breathe it every day and kind of what we're doing here at employers and an alternative distribution. I think we're going to see more and more, and I wouldn't say this isn't surprising, right, but the current environment, COVID, is really fast-tracked a lot of this. We're going to see more and more agents wanting to create and control digital experiences,

not only just from acquiring customer right, because at the end of the day, insurance will continue to be relationship-based and local. And, you know, a lot of times when you talk to an agent, it's, hey, that's my relationship. That's my client. So how can we expand that? And one of those ways for us to do that is support you and creating,

agents have become, are starting to get really good at digital marketing and social media in pockets. The disconnect that we're seeing is, and then once you send them or get them to your page or whatever you're landing on, you're giving them like the old school like lead gen page, right? And then I hope and a prayer or someone calls you back or emails you back to say, hey, let's stock more. So I think in the short term, there's going to be a lot of focus on on creating digital storefronts or creating a buying experience where that customer, once they find you

on the internet somehow, whether it's through SCM, SEO, affiliate marketing, and they end up at your website or your experience, they can go even further than just leaving their name and address or phone number or email to get a call back. It will be now like, hey, I can answer a few questions, get a quote or even bind it or even pay for it. And I think even longer term, you'll see more of that transition into the post buying and servicing aspect, you know, endorsement, things like that where the agent can continue to focus on what we talked about is, you know, getting out on the streets, meeting with their clients, advising, being, you know, human, empathizing when those claims come in and being able to really focus on the important pieces

of the business versus getting bogged down on historically what's been like, legacy systems and processes. Yeah. Between this podcast interview and I had a call with another agent. And we were talking about when I was looking at his website and he's relatively new and he forces his clients through a few paths that allow him to, you know, and I was asking him why he forced him to do it. So specifically things like certificate requests and some of the things that they can do

self-service. Also, all service requests need to come through a certain portal. And it was mobile friendly and stuff too. So it wasn't like you're, you know, just limiting to them to having to come to their computer. But it did force them down a process. And I said to him, you know, how has that worked for you? And he said, what it allowed by forcing them to do the transactional things, the way we need them done, we're able to do the relation, we're able to spend more time doing the relationship things with them. And that's how he positions it is, look, I know it's easier for you to just text me a VIN number and say, hey, can you make this change? But what happens for us is that takes so much time and effort, things get lost, numbers get, it's hard. If you can just go to this page,

input the information the way we ask, then we can spend more time making sure it's right, you know, making sure that everything's taken care of, that we can get, you know, in a, I'm not doing exactly his pitch justice, but that idea of creating a digital experience a certain way in the effort to free up the relationship and human side of the business, I fully agree with you and I couldn't agree more that that is a big part of our future. And I'll say this again too. And I have thoroughly enjoyed the relationship that you and I have started to build. and I'm looking forward to doing more and more business with employers, I think deeper connections to our carriers is another big part of it.

And being discerning, being discerning about those relationships. Like I took on a relationship and I freaking regret it. And because it's a pain in the ass. But there are other relationships that I'm like, God, if they were all like this, it would be, you know, it would be amazing. Right. And I think investing in and because there are carriers that are coming our way. And I think as agents, I hope that we're listening, we start to invest in the carriers that are coming our way.

And that's part of the reason I wanted to have you guys on because I think, you know, have you on, but in part to talk about employers is because I think you guys are a great example of a carrier that is doing the work to come to agents. That you're versus making us come all the way to you. you're starting to close that ground. And I hope more carriers learn from that because it's nice. It really is. And it helps. And it makes a difference. It's noticed.

Yeah. No, well, we appreciate it. I mean, I can't take credit for it. It's really the folks before me that laid the foundation and the Doug Dirk's of the world and the Ray Wise is the folks at the senior, you know, senior leadership level.

And this is more like the insurance nerd to me, but it's just fascinating to even think about the employer's journey of 20 years ago. We were just a state fund for. Nevada and our CEO steps in as, I think, like a KPMG consultant, discovers that, hey, we are bleeding close to $2 billion and we're going to go and solve it in a matter of like weeks, if not days. And now transforming it into a publicly traded national carrier that is very much a technology first thinking kind of company. Just kudos to everyone in the employer's family that

made that happen. At the end of the day for us, Ryan, our core principle with what we want to do is we want to empower our agents. I think where some folks get concerned, like, is the care you're trying to disrupt me? Are they trying to circumvent me? I mean, our core principle, and you'll hear this cross the board from our senior leaders is we will continue to roll out technologies, services, solutions that will empower our agents to provide better service for our customers. Yeah. I think you're on it, man. And I hope that, I hope, I hope everyone, I hope everyone listening to this was, was, was, was, was really dialed into what this, um, um, I think the language that you used, and I know it's not just you, you know what I mean,

but you is it's what we need. This is the future of what relationships look like from a carrier and agency perspective in our industry. I think that the carriers that continue to make agents bridge the whole expanse of the gap between them are going to start to struggle. Aden's are going to start to shy away from them. And look, some of them have so much premium, maybe they don't care. but I'll say a line that I heard the other day.

You know, there are a lot of organizations that are losing so slowly they think they're winning. And I think COVID and technology, 5G, you know, more automated processes, more telematics, even though I don't necessarily believe in telematics, things like that. I think these things are rapidly changing the game. And I don't know that three to five years from now. we will be able to look up and I don't think you'll be able to lose so slow you think you're winning. I think you'll know. And I think the answer, the lesson there is there are things you can do. Yeah. No, I mean, I definitely believe in that and I'm just very bullish on insurance in our industry

and continue to be. So you've done, you let me do most of the talking. I'm going to throw some questions back. You kind of do like a rapid fire. Oh, yeah. Sure. Go ahead. More like personal fun questions. So some of the folks that might be listening or maybe not as familiar with you. Just close it out with a little bit of fun. Yeah. And I'm going to steal this idea from Adam B, who's our social media manager.

So some of this kind of serious, personal fun question. So like, who or what would you say is help shape you in the person you are today? Wow, that's a big one. So I'd say I was blessed with two very loving parents. neither one perfect but I'm incredibly loving so I was blessed in so much as I got to see what that looks like so that was nice and then I was blessed with a lot of really good sports coaches sports really shaped me into who I am I had I had some old school blue collar coaches cigar

smoking on third base you know the big burly football coach who would literally take you on in no pads and you're in full gear, you know, in high school and knock you down kind of guys. And they really taught me. I was blessed to learn very early what it was like to get knocked down and then have that same person reach down with their hand and pick you back up and say, hey, just keep going. So I think that sports and a pretty, pretty lucky on the parents have really shaped me into the type person I am.

That's awesome. What's something you're curious about right now to be inside or outside of insurance, personal or professional? So I am really into right now I'm really into personally this is, well, there's a couple things. I'm really into neutropics and brain hacking right now. I would say I'm in early stages of research. About three years ago, I took a deep dive into inflammation and living an anti-inflammatory life. I fall off that horse sometimes, but I know how to get back on now, which is very good, because inflammation is basically the root cause of our death. And limiting inflammation prolongs our life

and our happiness and our mood and a lot of really good things. And I've started reading a book by Ben Greenfield called Boundless. It is enormous book. It is a pretty incredible book. and that's what I'm geeking out on now when I'm not doing insurance or my family. I'm kind of geeking out on how to hack my brain for better focus, for more creativity, for more energy, that kind of stuff professionally. I don't know. There's so much going on. I don't know that I have a thing that I can share professionally.

Very cool. All right. And the last one, I feel like everyone asks this in insurance or any other job, right? So what profession other than your own would you like to attempt? That's a good, that's a good, that's a good question. Well, if I, my 10-year-old self would say that I always wanted to be a baseball player. That's very kind of trite answer to a certain extent. But I really, really, really love the nuances of that game.

I just did. I just loved it. And I would love to coach it, like maybe not even a player because I was never good enough. But I would love to still be in sports somehow. I wish that I was involved. I just feel so strongly about what they do. I feel like, I feel unfortunately, like a lot of the social unrest

that we currently are dealing with is because sports have been corrupted in many ways to not necessarily be what they are and teach the lessons that they taught me, I guess. maybe that's just my perspective. But I would love that. Otherwise, dude, I just love, I love working in teams. I wish I, I can't wait till Rogue has a team.

I miss working in teams when I got to work at Agency Nation and manage a team and lead a team. That was, that was some of the most fun days I've ever had in work, just battling with people to get the most out of them. Like, how do you take this person and provide them with the environment and the encouragement and the tools and, whatever it is that they need, whatever their fuel is, how do I get that to them so that they can be their best version of themselves as often as they're capable of being? Like that part of leadership to me is enthralling. And I could read and talk about that all day

because I find that to be interesting. The industry is far less important, I guess, than it is, I love watching someone light up and just do, just come up with something, even if it feels trivial, but just figuring something out and seeing that look on their face and you're like, yes, I love that they got there, you know? I just think that's awesome.

Yeah, I hear you. Cool, man. Well, that was really, yeah, I just kind of figured give you some, some time. Oh, yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I don't know. Most of the time I'm answering the questions are just blabbing.

So that's fun. No, I appreciate you doing that. Well, dude, hey, I thank you for coming on. We bounced around a lot on getting this one head. I feel like both of our schedule is just like, You know, whether it was you or it was me, we were always kind of canceling on each other, which is fine. It's just funny.

But I'm glad we finally got it done. And I really enjoyed it. We went to one a bunch of places. And you gave us some tremendous stuff. And I'm happy that you and I have started to get to know each other. I've really enjoyed the conversations that we have. And I look forward to the future. And I'm just, I'm very happy and honored to be part, you know, to be partnered with employers as

as one of your agents. So I'm looking forward to the future. And just thanks, man. I appreciate it. Yeah, likewise. We are, so we're excited to have you as part of the employer's family.

Also, I was tired of hearing about this Ryan Hanley guy when we run around in the same circles from like, and I was like, all right, we've got to figure out a way to get in front of this dude. So really appreciate it. Thanks, man.

Be good. Yeah. Close twice as many deals by this time next week. Sound impossible. It's not. With the one call closed system, you'll stop chasing leads and start closing deals.

in one call. This is the exact method we use to close 1,200 clients under three years during the pandemic. No fluff, no endless follow-ups, just results fast. Based in behavioral psychology and battle tested, the one-call closed system eliminates excuses and gets the prospect saying yes, more than you ever thought possible. If you're ready to stop losing opportunities and start winning, visit masterof-theclose.com. That's masterof-theclose.com. Do it today.

If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening. Happy holidays. Want to give your host a gift? Consider subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show this holiday season. It really helps the show grow. From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday.