Finding Peak w/ Ryan Hanley - ESPN Emmy Award Winner Reveals Her SECRET to Career Motivation - Anne Marie Anderson

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

Spartan philosophy, built in the black-ops lab of business: https://www.findingpeak.comFinding Peak podcast: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanleyAnne Marie Anderson, is a three-time Emmy Award-winning ESPN broadcaster and author of "Cultivating Audacity: Dismantle Doubt and Let Yourself Win" (January 2025). Anne Marie, who's about to drop truth bombs on GMA, isn't here for your excuses.She's exposing the "sticky floor"—that invisible trap that keeps you stuck in place, waiting for permission or perfect credentials. This episode is the motivation injection your transformation requires.🎯 Takeaways: • Embrace competition and use rejection as data to grow. • Overcome the sticky floor by daring to take bold, audacious actions. • Reframe fear as an invitation to expand and improve.💬 Sound Bites: • "Even when you've been knocked down, you get up and show up the second time and take another big swing." • "I don't understand how you can let somebody you've never even met shake your confidence.” • "Somehow, I always say I have I don't have FOMO. I have FOSS. Like, the fear of staying the same. Because the only thing that staying the same ensures is that no growth is possible."🔗 Connect and Discover: Cultivating Audacity: Dismantle Doubt and Let Yourself Win - https://amzn.to/3QJl1idWebsite: www.annemarieanderson.com📌 𝗙𝗢𝗟𝗟𝗢𝗪 𝗠𝗘 𝗢𝗡: Website: https://www.go.ryanhanley.com/ Course Page: https://www.masteroftheclose.com/ Apple: https://www.podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ryan-hanley-show/id1480262657 Spotify: https://www.open.spotify.com/show/5AZFuTiQsgS9hMQDDdtlOr?si=98432b7806534486 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ryan_hanley--Recommended Tools for GrowthOpusClip: #1 AI video clipping and editing tool: https://link.ryanhanley.com/opusRiverside: HD Podcast & Video Software | Free Recording & Editing: https://link.ryanhanley.com/riversideWhisperFlow: Never waste time typing on your keyboard again: https://link.ryanhanley.com/whisperflowCaptionsApp: One app for all your social media video creation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/captionsappGoHighLevel: It's time to take your business workflow to the Next Level: https://link.ryanhanley.com/gohighlevelPerspective.co: The #1 funnel builder for lead generation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/perspective--Episodes You Might Enjoy:From $2 Million Loss to World-Class Entrepreneur: https://lnk.to/delkFrom One Man Shop to $200M in Revenue: https://lnk.to/tommymelloIs Psilocybin the Gateway to Self-Mastery? https://lnk.to/80upZ9This show is part of the Unplugged Studios Network — the infrastructure layer for serious creators. 👉 Learn more at https://unpluggedstudios.fm.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Happy holidays. Want to give your host a gift? Consider subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show this holiday season. It really helps the show grow. From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. We have a tremendous conversation for you today with Anne-Marie Anderson. 35-year veteran of ESPN on-air personality now has a best-selling book,

captivating audacity. And what I love about Amory is her approach to breaking through the barriers that keep us from getting to where we want to go. So many people talk about the glass ceiling or, you know, kind of outsourcing the reasons that we are not able to get where we want to go.

Amory repositions it as the sticky floor, allowing ourselves to remain attached to the base nature of what we do. this is an incredible conversation. She has amazing stories, sports personality, just dynamic, been all over the world. You are going to love this conversation, and I promise you,

if you are struggling to break through to the success that you have on your brain that you dream about, this is going to be a conversation that will give you the tools that you need to get there. Before we talk to Amory, I just want to say, as always, thank you for being here, guys.

It means so much to me that you spend your time. I know there's so many shows out there, so many things that can take your attention, and the fact that you choose to be part of this community, listen to this show means the world to me. And I hope that you feel the energy, passion, commitment to give it back to you and to continue to bring on amazing guests,

as well as doing the individual solo shows that I drop once a week, that dive into specific topics related to business, personal development, that help you grow, that help you grow, and make all your wildest dreams come true. because if we're not going after all our wildest dreams, then what the hell are we doing, right? If you do enjoy this show,

I would love for you to subscribe wherever you listen or watch. If you're on YouTube, like the show, tell a friend. And if you have thoughts, comments, if you just want to give a fist pound to Amory for being on here and appreciate her time, YouTube is ultimately the place that I collect all your feedback, I reply to all the comments, and I use it as an indication of what topics we should be addressing,

and what future guests we should bring on to the show to put in front of you. I love you for being here. I know you're going to enjoy this conversation. Let's get on to Anne Marie Anderson. Anne Marie, it's great to have you on the show. Thanks for much time for, or thank you for taking the time to come on today. No, I've been looking forward to this, Brian. Yeah, yeah.

I love shows where I completely fumble the ball and, you know, we start as a complete mess because I feel like it adds a whole dynamic and energy to getting into it. But it's just, you know, I'm reading the book, cultivating audacity, and I look at the way that you approach topics and in the way that you look through, you know, the filter that you're putting your thoughts through. And I'm very interested how, like, how did coming into an organization like ESPN, you know, being on camera and starting it's, starting that career at such a young age, like how much have you changed or your mental

change or your mindset matured from, say, those early days when you first get in the door and it's probably bright lights and so much, everything's so exciting. I mean, ESPN is a very exciting organization. And then having a 35 year career that's continuing the ESPN and coming through all that, like, like, what does that evolution been for you? And when you look back, maybe what's the, what's one of the big things that you see different about you today? as it was when you first started out? I mean, this fits right in. I'm far more audacious, right?

I'm far more willing to take out bold risks now than I was then. You mentioned I started ESPN at 21 years old. Now, I'm a former collegiate athlete, and a lot of people who work at ESPN are either, you know, were athletes or involved in athletics in some way. And I think the thing that I remember the most from hitting the floor at 21 was how competitive everything was. like every day was competitive because it's hard to stand out at a company like ESPN.

So forcing yourself to come up with story ideas and different angles. I was shy, Ryan, by nature. I wouldn't call myself shy now, but that's kind of being a new revelation. I've just been shy or introverted my entire life. So I think what I see now compared to then is just a real comfort with competition and a completely different perspective on, like, rejection and fear and all those emotions I felt at the beginning. Now, for me, it's like everything's settled into data. It's all data.

Whether I get the outcome I want or I don't, it's just all information. How do you become comfortable with competition? Certainly being in athletics helps, I think. A big part of audacity is understanding you're going to take the risk, and it's not about the outcome. And it seems so silly, but like the win in being audacious isn't like in getting what you want. The win is in taking action. And I think with competition, you'll see a lot of people that are afraid to take action. And so your first level of competition is with yourself saying, I don't want to do this.

This doesn't feel good. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get smacked in the face with rejection here. But I'm going to jump. And I'm going to do it. and I think just repeated practice of that. So I have two young kids, 11 and 9, they play sports, a very competitive guy. I played sports in college as well.

And I look at, you know, I pass everything through, and it's probably, I don't know, maybe it's boring to some people, but I think through my coaching experience, I coach them both now, and I think through those coaching experiences and apply that to a lot of what I see in the business environment and what's going on. and it feels very much like,

and maybe this moment in time, things are starting to switch back, but it feels like for a very long time, competition was almost seen as a negative, right? Like, it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game and, you know, all the trophy stuff, which I know is like a cliche that has been overused so much,

but there's also a reality to it, right? Like, it wasn't about winning. It wasn't about applying yourself at 100%. It was like, well, you showed up, and that's the win. And I just struggle with those type of platitudes because when I look at reality, like what it, what it actually means to be out in the business environment, having started my own businesses and had big wins, big fails, like, it's not whether you show up or not. Like, there's no victory in showing up. Maybe like psychologically there's a victory, but there's certainly not in the real world. It's you actually have to get in, like you said, be audacious, compete, try things, like get, get numbers.

on the board. One, do you agree that maybe certainly in our society to a certain extent competition has been frowned upon? And do you think the idea of being competitive and trying to win in a healthy way, right? Obviously, we see the clips on social media, people where maybe unhealthy in competition. Do you think that is an important skill set and mentality to cultivate, especially in, say, maybe people that are in their early 20s that are starting out in their career? Absolutely.

Look, competition is throughout your life. And I think one of the things I've observed, I also have a 12-year-old who I coach, is getting people comfortable with the idea of, like, battle, really, and competition. But I do think it starts with yourself. As far as the negative connotations, like, you're right. It has been there. And I don't care.

You know, I don't care because, like, the word audacity had negative connotations. And I've made an attempt here to change that because who's braver and then somebody will take bold risks not knowing what's going to happen. Same idea in competition. And part of the mentality, right, of being audacious and having this willingness to take bold risks is about competition. And I use the example of like, if you're losing by 12 at the half, why do you come out to play the second half, right?

Because maybe if you get your act together, you have some defense, you start to work your offense a little bit, you'll win. But even if you don't win that game, you'll have data and information to work for so you can compete again, hopefully better for the next time. Same thing happens in business. You're not going to win every contract. You're not going to win every opportunity, every promotion. So to your point about showing up, I think there is something to that because even when you've been knocked down, you get up and show up the second time and take another big swing. Yeah. I think I think that's a really good point. I think that it's probably like all things. There's a scale, right? They're showing up and just being there physically and not applying

yourself. And that's, I think that's the version of showing up that maybe I like to dispel or like to play it against. But then, but I completely agree with you. And I've seen it in my own career. You just have to keep coming back. Like, you know, try the next thing. Try the next thing. It's funny. We, our basketball season just ended. And, And we lost a really, we lost, we played very poorly and lost by a lot in our last game of the season. It was a tough way to go out, right? What happened is. And my son after the game, he's very disappointed.

He was kind of frustrated. And, you know, he, you know, said a couple things to me. And I just like, I was like, look, man, you're 11 years old. Do you know how much better you will be next year? Because you just got your ass kicked than it was if you were on the other side and just dominated the other team. Like, because you just were dribbling in the party. lot while you're awaiting me to get for me to get all the gear in the thing. You know what I mean? Yeah. You're more motivated to come back and try again because you competed and had that loss

and you learned from it. And I think, you know, we've, I think a lot of people look at the loss as the end when really it's just, as you said, I love that you put this way because I think of it the same. It's a data point. It's right. It's one data point and a series of where you're trying to go. I love that idea. When we were, I want to jump to something that, that I didn't necessarily have on the docket, but you mentioned it before when we were talking before we went live and I just, I want you to dig into this concept. I think it's where we are in the conversation, this idea of a sticky floor. Can you break this down for us and let's go dive into this idea? Yeah. So first of all, as women, we talk a lot about the glass ceiling, right? So I don't believe the glass ceiling is a real

issue. And I think that the sticky floor is a real issue for men and women. And what I mean by the sticky floor is we are stuck waiting for the right moment when everything is aligned, when we have all the qualifications, when we have every bit of material, when we have time, as if time is somehow going to open up for us and welcome us into life. That right time never arrives. And here's an example that I give, Brian, when I'm talking in groups. Let's say you and I both go in to, you and I both want the same job, okay? You go in and apply with 50% of the credentials, right? And I'm like, are you kidding me? They're going to hire Ryan. He's got 50% of the credentials. You don't get the job. That's fine. You go back again maybe at 65% of the credentials.

And I'm still working behind the scenes to add to my stuff. You don't get that job again, right? You still don't have everything you need. At 85% of the credentials, you and I both go in to apply. Maybe I've even got 90% and you've got 80, whatever it is, who's going to get that job? you are because you have now gone three times. You know the decision makers. You know what they're looking for. And most importantly, they have watched you add skills. They have said, yeah, Ryan didn't have that much, but look what he's added.

Look what he's added. So by me waiting until I felt like I was ready, I lost. I mean, you want to talk about competition, getting stuck there waiting? It doesn't make me any better to go in and be like, voila, I have everything you need, right? It's about the grit of. coming back, getting the information and the data. The sticky floor is a killer because then there's this resentment that happens sometimes. I can't believe they hired Ryan.

Like I have more credentials than him. No, sis, you lost because you weren't brave enough to take the swings early. Yeah. You know, it's funny. You throw out these concepts and then you start thinking about your own career. And I think about my own hiring process, right? and what I look for when I'm hiring people for my companies. And I think I look for the person, like I used to say this,

I want to work with people with a limp. I'm always looking for people with a limp, right? Like I want that person who's battered and bruised and scarred up and maybe he's a little rough around the edges. But I know that when shit gets hectic, they're the ones that are going to find the solution, that are going to work the extra hour that aren't going to say, well, my day ends at 4.30.

so I'm going home, right? Like, and again, it's not always about putting more hours in or whatever, but you want, like, that perfectly polished, like there's this, this image, I think, in a lot of people's heads, and I just love the way, this idea of sticky floor just completely resonates. I just love it. It's like, there's so many people that wait until they're this perfectly polished version of themselves. And I think any company that you actually want to work for, that leader is looking at you going, I know that's not who you really are because that's who no one is.

Right? Like, I want to see the dirty, grimy version of you that's going to come in on a Tuesday after you just, you know, you had, you went home and you had 15 things going on at home and you didn't get any sleep because you got a baby and, you know, and you show up on two. What's that version are you going to give me? And if I believe that that version is going to push through and be good for us, even despite you're not at 100 percent, I want you. So you know what you want? You want a teammate, right? You want a teammate who's not going to walk off the floor and be like, we're losing. I'm out of here. That's what we want in business. Somebody who's a teammate, you know, you can say somebody who's in the foxhole with you, but that was, that's something in ESPN that I really embraced because stuff goes wrong on live television all the time. And I always wanted to be, and I was the teammate who was like, okay, you do that.

I will distract them over here while we get this in on time so it can make air. That's what you want. You want somebody who's going to be like, let's figure this out. Maybe let's even think outside the box. Yeah. So if someone's listening to this and they're doing maybe a little self-awareness, and they're like, man, how do you break free of the sticky floor? If that's a problem that you have, how do you start to break free of that mentality?

Okay, you're ready? Yes. You go fail. You go fail as often as you can. I was so worried all the time about being rejected and failing that I had to seek out opportunities to fail. I literally sought them out, Ryan. There was a network that I wanted to do some work for freelance,

and I knew that the person who hired was a bully. I'd heard it from everybody. He was just a bully and demean people. So I went in, interviewed with him, as expected. He was dismissive, whatever, whatever, didn't want me. Fine. That was the safest place. for me to go back time and time and time again to get rejected.

So I remember every time I saw him at a press conference or whatever, I would reach out like a crazy person and be like, hey, how are you? Anne-Marie Anderson, we talked before. Is today the day you're going to hire me? And he was like, no, what? And then I'd see him three months later. Hey, Anne-Marie Anderson, today, the day, today, today. I kept doing that because every time, right, he says, no, I don't want to hire you.

that rejection got less of a sting. Sure enough, a year and a half later, he came up to me and said, hey, today's a day, I'm going to hire you. I worked for him. He was dismissive and a bully and everything I thought, you know, that we were going to be there, did the work.

And then he came back later and said, hey, I want to use you again for something. And then I could pass and say, no, it's not the environment I want to work it. But it's about setting yourself up time and time again to desensitize yourself to those fears and feelings. and failures and rejections.

It's practice, right? It's crazy, but it's practice. Go swing for the highest thing first. If you have a bunch of things you want to accomplish and then there's the big thing, do that one first. So you can fail at that and then come back around. Do you think that it's insecurity, ego? Like, what are the characteristics that?

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You know, that we all deal with, that maybe stop us from doing what you did. because I think a lot of people listening, I think a lot of people are listening nodding going what she said and what she did makes a complete sense. Yet, I think less than 1% of the people listening would probably do what you did to get that opportunity. So what are some of the things that maybe if some, again, we're thinking we're self-evaluating here

as you're talking through this idea of audacity and sticky floor. Like what are some of the things that could be holding us back? Is it, if I do that, people are going to judge me? Is it I don't want my ego to get hurt? Is it that I just doubt I'm good enough to get that job? Like, what are those limiting beliefs? It's all of those things. But more than anything, the overriding is that you're putting somebody else's evaluation

of you as law, right? They say no, and therefore I must not be good enough. Like, I'm not going to buy that from somebody. I may not be ready right now, whatever. But it's, it's, you know, who are you listening to? Is it your inner critic who says, now that's the third time you got rejected, so I'd give this up if I were you, just go in the closet, sit down. And, you know, it's just you have to think about whose evaluation. Yes, you're afraid, right? You're afraid of being exposed, being judged, to being embarrassed, you know, whatever it is. So go be exposed, judged and embarrassed. I mean, that's the quickest way to desensitize yourself. And then you have to think about, like, am I saying this is something on my, this is an evaluation? my failure means I'm not worthy of something? Like, that's silly.

You're trying to do something new. I tend to give these little monologues to my children when we're in the car. They love that, don't they? Yeah. I mean, I did have this, like, parenting moment of bliss where my younger son said something about a game, negative about himself. And my older son turned around and like, bop, bop, bop, like, in a, not an accusatory way. And, like, it was like something I had said to him. You know what I mean?

And he's like, he's like, you're better than that. Like, never let your coach tell you, you can't do, you know, whatever. And then he turned around. I, like, sat there for a second. I was like, oh, my God, they're listening. Like, they actually are listening. I know. And Ryan, I had the craziest thing happen this summer as well.

I have three kids, right? 2017 and 12. So I had a network this year, which is super bizarre this far in my career. And the head of the network said, no, I don't like your voice. And I was like. Okay. Like, what do you want me to do? Like, if you don't like my voice, there's nothing I could do.

So I was annoyed, right, that this opportunity got taken away because one person didn't like my voice. Like, I've never had that in my career. So, and watch this. Now much of people be like, actually, I don't like your voice either. But, and I was having dinner with my 20-year-old that night. And he and I got together and I got frustrated. I got teary. And I was like, this is ridiculous.

Like, seriously, this far in? That's the thing. My son listened. About a week later, he said, Mom, can we? go have lunch. I'm like, sure. Teenager asked you have lunch. You're like, for sure, I'm going to have lunch. And I had been telling him, like, it kind of shook my confidence that thing. Like, is there something wrong? So here's what's so wild. When the kids get older, we sat down at lunch and he goes, look, I wanted to have lunch with you because I needed to talk to you about something.

And I thought, did you just call a meeting with your mother? Like, are we having a meeting now? And he looks at me and he goes, I don't understand how you can let somebody you've never even met shake your confidence. He's like, Mom, I'm a confident guy. I haven't done anything yet. You're confident. You got awards and other things. Like, are you kidding me? And he goes, Mom, you're a killer. Okay? You're a killer. And I'm thinking, am I being coached up by my own child right now? Like, Ryan, that's your future. It was the wildest thing. Yeah. Because I'm listening to him. And then I'm like, yeah, you're right. I am a killer. I am a killer.

Rejection means nothing. But when they started flipping around, like, that's your satisfied moment. Yeah, that's, oh, what amazing. That's, that's like a life. That's like something you'll remember the rest of your life. What a tremendous moment. Yeah.

It's, you know, I grew up in a very kind of poor environment. I had good parents, but they kind of were just getting by. You know, we, we just, I wasn't getting life lessons in the car, right? It was like, you know, I was, it was, I had kind of latch key style. When I explained the way I was raised. to my children, they look at me and they're like, what? I'm like, yeah, like, practice would end, and I would just sit there until either grandpa or grandma came to pick me up.

I had no idea when they were showing up, you know what I mean? Like, I would just sit there. And they're like, because my kids, if you're not there five minutes early, they're having a, you know, they're like, oh, my God, you know. I totally know. So, you know, I didn't get these lessons. So I feel this obligation to kind of give them some of these life lessons. And one of the things I say to them all the time is like,

never let someone else dictate your future like they never let them it doesn't mean they can't or won't push you in certain directions but it's only they're all that that only applies if you then stop right if you if because of that you stop but if you keep going and keep pushing eventually you're going to move past that person and you know that that is such a hard lesson to get into people because I think you know it feels like everything is caught on camera today and if you do, you know, we see, you know, you see someone who maybe you respect has a bad moment. And now all of a sudden that bad moment is plastered everywhere. And it's all anyone's talking about.

And it feels like everything is on display. And, you know, I sit to them. I go, if you knew, because they really like Kobe Bryant. They love Kobe Bryant, which, thank goodness. If they take on his work ethic and whatever it is, they choose to do in their life, they're going to be fine. But I'm like, if you actually dig into Kobe's life, there's a lot of moments in there that, you know, are not bright, shining moments.

Like we see some of them on on Instagram or whatever, but like there's a lot of stuff that isn't good. But what I said, the lesson from Kobe is not his jump shot or how he prepared. It was that the guy literally never stopped. Like he just didn't stop. Like there was no one until his body physically wouldn't allow him to play the game anymore. He did not stop moving forward,

which is what made him so great, you know, maybe in addition to a couple of things. And, you know, in this idea of audacity, and, you know, kind of removing ourselves from the sticky floor, you know, if you're in front of a group or you're doing one of your workshops, you know, how do you coach people to keep going through these moments and see past these nose so that they do try again? They do try again. Like, you know, are there any like mantras or mindsets or advice that you have for them so that that next know they get doesn't stop them from continuing to pursue that thing? Absolutely. Can I tell you a little? bit about Kobe first before I go there. So my time with ESPN when I was full staff, I was Los Angeles Bureau producer. So, which means I was at the forum, Kobe's first day coming in, right? A teenager drafted 17 years old. And I remember, because my point in telling this is like

Kobe's mentality was authentic. And he, he just owned it. Being there and watching him walk in and we're all like, I don't know, I think you're thinking at 17, he's going to kiss the ring a little bit, he's going to hang back, which Kobe didn't do. Media aided up, of course, but it rubs some people wrong on the Lakers. And watching him and his belief that he belonged there at a very young age was really inspiring. And then watching how hard he worked, when you've got somebody that talented to work so hard, to your point, with all those failures and all those messy moments. And he cared that his teammates didn't like him. I mean, it wasn't like he didn't care.

He just couldn't control what they felt about him. Of course, Phil Jackson came in, made some changes, you know, and was able to really massage that effort. But one of the things I admired about Kobe was, to your point, you say he was never done. Even when he retired from basketball, he was still not done. He was going to have the greatest sports academy. He was going to be the greatest coach for young women. He was going to champion.

Like there's always that next way to be great and challenge yourself. So when somebody is getting noes, how do you get them up to do that next no? You have to convince them that no means not yet or next. And that it's a comma. And it's just going to redirect you. There is no no that is final in my mind in any way. you know, if you don't think I can do it, okay, well, you don't think I can do it. Maybe I still think I can do it until the data proves me wrong, in which case I'll go in a different direction.

Yeah, it's funny. When you talk to athletes, entrepreneurs, you know, anyone who's had a successful career, when you, when you like dig in and you have that casual off-the-cuff conversation, you never hear the stories where they won. You never those are never the stories that they tell. It's I was, you know, I had this idea for a company and I raised this money and we did. And then I blew it here and this didn't work and the market changed and I made this mistake and this fell apart. And man, you know, and but in my next company, you know, I fixed that. And it's, you know, it's funny. We, so many people avoid loss, avoid loss, play it safe.

Sit back. The sticky floor. I'm not ready. Yet when you, when you know, and I'm blessed to be able to have this platform and bring on incredible people like yourself. right, and they tell these stories. They always only want to talk about the mistakes they made because it's like they wear those as the badges of honor, not the accolades and the awards and the exits.

They want to talk about the places where they messed up and those are the badges of honor. And I think that message is just, it's like, if the most successful people and whatever it is you do, wear their losses as their badges of honor, why is it that you avoid loss at all costs, right? Like it just doesn't, it doesn't line. up. No. People think that

staying the same is safe. Somehow I always say I have, I don't have FOMO, I have FOS, like the fear of staying the same. Because the only thing that staying the same ensures is that no growth is possible. Right? If you're the same, you're like, you're definitely not going to

grow. And it's interesting hearing you talk about that because, yeah, the story that I always tell when people are like, oh, you've been on television and doing this for, you know, decades and decades. And I'm like, Yeah, my first time ever on live television, I was supposed to be like regional football sidelines in the Mountain West. Someone got sick. Things got changed around. And so my very first time on live television was on ESPN2, which was opening weekend of college football. At that time, ESPN2 was in 70 million homes. I was losing my mind outside the stadium, crying to my husband at the time, like just what you want in your reporter.

like tears coming down. You know? And it was like, he's like, everybody, what's the worst that could happen? And I was like, oh, my God, you want to know the worst? You know, I could be so bad that not only why, never be allowed on air again, but I will lose my producing job. And I could lose my entire, you know, career in television over this. And if I lose my career, I'm going to be a miserable person.

And if I'm a miserable person, you'll have to leave me because I won't be able to be a good mother to our children who aren't even born yet. And I could die destitute and alone, Matt. That's what could happen. And he was like, Come on. Like, really? But when you catastrophize the whole thing, sometimes that will be enough to snap you out of like, okay, I'm probably not going to die. I'm just afraid that I'm going to be bad, exposed, judged, and embarrassed. And then I went on and I was bad, exposed, judged, and embarrassed. And I survived. And I got up the next week and did it again. And yeah, I had friends who were like, oh, that's, yeah, not good. Are you sure you want to do this? And I was like, yeah, I do. So I just did a TEDx talk two weeks ago. Congratulations.

Thank you. It was a really cool experience. But I've probably done north of 350 keynotes in my life. I've been doing it for 15 years. Rarely do I get, I get that energy that you get when you're going to be in front of an audience. But I don't get the anxiety anymore. Right. for this talk, all the sudden, it was like the first time all over again where my like muscles are

tense, my, I can't, you know, I can't remember sections. Like, like, I just was a, you know, all of a sudden I became, I went, reverted all the way back to, like, that first time. And I'm, pacing in the lobby outside. I'm reading my notes as if reading them again for the thousandth time is going to get them into my brain. And I'm doing exactly what you just said. You're, I mean, here I am this deep into my career. And I'm all the way back to like, I'm going to skip this section. And then I'm not going to hit this point. And then I'm going to mess up this experience that I've been working on for a year that I've been, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like going through this whole thing. And finally I, I like sat down and thank God I had a very good friend who came to the event and was just sitting in the audience. And he looked at me and he's like, dude, you're going to do great. And like I had this moment of like the only reason I feel this way is because just like you said, I have catastrophized this experience and created this entire scenario that has not happened in the future of all these things.

And as soon as I like shopped that and thank God that he was there and he said what he said because it was just like this awakening. And all of a sudden I just go, well, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. Here we go. And, you know, then went out

and actually there was a slide snafu you know, two slides in, whoever was running because like TEDx events are very produced. So like someone's running the slides. and they, after my second slide, someone back on the panel must have hit a button and it went to like the main,

like went off of my slides to the backdrop that sits in between speakers, right? So now I'm in the little red dot and my confidence monitor is now showing something that's not supposed to be there. And I just, you know, I kind of took a pause as if I meant to, right? And it was probably five seconds at most,

maybe three seconds. It felt like a lifetime. But, and then it went back to my slide. And then I came back in and finished and it ended up being, you know, I was very happy with what I did. But like, it's so like literally the catastrophe happened. But if I was still in that, I love this term that you use catastrophizing. That's, you should trademark that. If that's not already trademark, you should.

This catastrophizing mindset, then I completely fall apart in that moment, right? Because I'm, I'm, this is what I expected to happen and it happened and blah. And instead I just took a long pause like I would if I were doing a normal keynote for a second as if I was gathering myself or going to deliver some powerful line. The big moment. Yeah. I'll write back to it. And so it literally was the difference between what you said. Like instead of projecting out all these terrible things, which is, which I think comes back to when we're talking about the reason why people are so afraid of no is because they take that one no and then they create this entire timeline of horrible things that are going to happen from it.

And it's just like, what if you did the same exercise except everything that happens after that knows amazing? Yeah. How much less do you care, right? Yeah. It's such a wonderful thought. It's hard, though. I will say for people listening, they're like, yeah, this all sounds really easy. It's hard to get that momentum.

But there is a certain pride that you feel in yourself once you have put yourself out there that really isn't attached to the outcome. You're like, God, I did it, whatever. I bungee jumped off that bridge. I stood in front of a crowd and delivered his speech. Like there's this pride of like, yeah, I did that. Yeah. And oftentimes those around us, they respect the effort as much as they respect the win, right? The win comes with more accolades.

But from a respect of peers and people around you, you know, they may say like, ooh, I wouldn't want to fail like that on TV or whatever. Yeah. But at the same time in the back of their head, they're like, but shit she did it right she put herself out there like i wouldn't have done that like that's pretty impressive so it's almost like there's going to be positives that come out of it even if you can't imagine them and there's going to be someone you know again just to the voice point if people don't like your voice they've been miserable listening to my podcast because my voice like what do you want

yeah but um but like there's always going to be someone who watches that and goes yeah she she kind of messed that up but geez i really liked the way she did this one thing at the end like I could see that in my program. Like I really like her to maybe come to. So there's, but no one would see that if you didn't do it. And I just love that. Right. And how much do you value that?

Like I had a friend of mine who would always criticize people on TV, right? And so we'd be watching something. She'd be like, oh, that was terrible and this and that. But did she ever do it? No. And I actually let that hold me back from trying because I thought she's going to judge me. And sure enough, like after my first time on air, she didn't call. Like she was a good friend.

She didn't call or talk to me or anything. And the deal is this. Like 35 years later, she still criticizes people on TV. You know, she doesn't have her own career. And I'm like one of those people on TV who gets criticized and doesn't care. And so like now I realize, oh, right. Sometimes people just want to observe because they're letting their own fears get in the way of really admiring what's going on. Well, you don't have the three Emmy Awards that are sitting.

off your shoulder if you're not willing to be out in front of people and get criticized. Like it's just you can't have the one without the other, right? There's a reason. You didn't win those awards because every moment from moment one to the moment that you're getting the award was perfect. That doesn't happen. Right. Like there's just absolutely no way.

There's no way to learn the lessons that you need to learn if you do not have the failures. So it's almost like we need to start, we need to reframe our mindset from accumulating victories to accumulating failures because to your, to like one of the first things you said, we have to detach from the outcome.

The outcome literally can't matter. It's really wild when you make friends with fear. And I really do mean that. Because we've been told what, Ryan, like push away, conquer your fears, overcome your fears. None of that's going to happen. None of that.

Fear is always going to be with us. It's a natural part of the process. So when you make friends with it, when you bring it in and you get curious about it, you can have a conversation with it. saying, I hear you, I get it and everything, but you're not going to get to make decisions for me. You can be in the passenger seat, but you do not get to drive. And it changes everything.

When you acknowledge the fear, instead of like trying to shove it down, no, no, no, I'll be great. I'll be great. You know what? Maybe I may not be great, but let's give it a go. Changes everything, recalibrating that relationship with rejection. I had John Azaroff on the podcast a few weeks ago. brilliant neuroscience guy and he was talking about

a slightly different topic but he brought up this idea that fear and excitement light up the same neural pathways in our brain. So he's like if that's the case then literally all you have to tell your brain is its excitement not fear. Now again, as you're said than done

but he's like your brain is acting the exact same way as if you were completely excited and energized with zero fear as it as if you have the fear, like the same pathways are lighting up. So just reframe that fear as excitement, and it will help take down your anxiety and your stress because now you're energized to do the thing,

not feeling anxious to do the thing. And sometimes I think these little mind hacks are, you know, stack enough of them on top of each other and eventually you find one that works, right? Yeah, I like that. Again, it's about like when I feel that now, that nervousness or anxiety, I do get fired up.

And that sounds crazy just knowing how shy I was and everything. But I'm like, oh boy, here it comes. Do you feel that? Like, I literally would talk to myself. Do you feel that? Okay, here we go. Like, fear is an invitation to grow. And that is, it took a lot of convincing of myself.

And that's something I try to go through in the book and explain to people. Here's your four barriers that stand between you and the thing you want to do. It's usually fear, time, money, or your inner critic. So dig into each one. And I don't just tell people, you should. I show you how to dig in, step by step through, and then how to reevaluate going forward so that you keep yourself with that right on that level

of like anxiety, energy, excitement, fear. Yeah. And I think a little bit of fear is a good thing, right? Like it keeps you leveled. Like if you were taking on a big task, like if I had approached that TEDx talker, you had approached, you know, your first time on live TV was zero fear.

Well, now you might approach it cavalier. You might miss something. Like, there's a reason fear is in our body and it's not, it's not always a negative, right? It's right. It heightens our senses. It makes us more aware. It dials us in and focuses us. I mean, you know, when you're truly scared, you're as focused as focused gets.

So these are all really positive things, especially when you're engaging in a really strong moment. Like, you know, to believe that, you know, to believe that you should be void of fear, I think is completely, misunderstanding the way your body works and the way your brain works. Absolutely. And I think, too, like, people get so worried, right, about what others will think. And what I tell people when they're trying to figure it out is to swing for the fence to sell things. And I say, look, we all remember the guy at the bar, the guy at the bar who would ask one

woman after another woman, after another woman out, until somebody said yes. Like, he didn't dwell on any of those rejections. He just went on to the next and onto the next. until somebody said yes, I'm like, sorry, you got to be the guy at the bar sometimes and be like, this is a no. I think I sent out, I always show my oldest son because he only sees the victories. Mom, you're killing it. You got that and you got this and you got a number one new release. And so I'll show him. I'll send him the rejections and I will also send him, hey, it's Monday morning and I got 50 emails I compose that are going out to various conferences and this

and that. I might get three responses and one booking out of it, you know. It definitely is the people who achieve things. They, they, this, this mindset that you have addressed in your book and this idea of audacity, like there are so many stories of some of the most, most widely read, most, most, most, most award-winning books. And they'll be like, 17 rejections, 59 rejections, 37 rejections, right? And it's like, and people don't ever, they just think, well, the first, you know, he must have had publishers banging down his door. She must have had, you know, the first publisher she sent it to picked it up.

And it's like, one, that's almost never the case. And two, it's just this. There's also something to. And, you know, tell me how you feel about this. Like, sometimes that gatekeeper to the thing that you want to do, part of their process is to see if you'll come back. Like, they may even think you're a good fit, but tell you. you know to see if you'll try again because it's that resilience and commitment that goes,

okay, she's a prime time player. Like I told her no, even though she knows she probably was qualified for this. She came back again despite the no, I got a winner. Like it's a gatekeeping tactic for some people to see if you're willing to do it. And if you give in, well, now you've just played right into what they were trying to filter out. Even if you're, even if you were the perfect fit for that job. Yep. I mean, when I applied to ESPN when I was 21, I was rejected. I went in, had the interview with them. They asked me to, you know, analyze the Mariners bullpen. This is before Randy Johnson was in the bullpen. And I froze. I didn't know how to do that, how to overcome it. 21. They were very polite. The sorry, you're not what we're looking for. And I was like, okay. And I drove back to New York and I was steaming mad at myself, not at them because I choked. And I was like, how do you joke, you know. And so I wrote a letter back to them. And it was a pretty audacious letter in

hindsight, you know, where I said, you know, I don't think I did a very good job showing what I could add. You have a million guys who could do stats, spit out stats and numbers and this and that. Here's what I can add. And I had already worked in television. And they ended up hiring me for a six-month temporary job working six at night to three in the morning, six days a week, Monday's off for $15,000 a year. And I thought, wait a second, what if I had not? What if I had never gone back. What if what if I had accepted that first now? I've got my entire life. My entire career has been in sports television, most of it with ESPN. So like what if I had accepted that first know? Like what would my life look like? Something that I've pulled from our conversation

today is a general sense of self-awareness. Like you seem to evaluate yourself, your performance in both the moment and maybe who you are. Like, where do you think, like, is that a learned trait? Do you think it's innate to you that you're self-aware? Do you think this is something you have developed this ability to say? Because I don't think a lot of people would drive back and be mad at themselves. Maybe a little, but I think a lot of people would then spin into, well, they just didn't see what I could do and I got all this potential and blah, blah, right?

Like, I was a college athlete. Like, of course, like, I think instead you're driving back mad at yourself and willing to write them a letter and say, You know, this wasn't my best performance. I know I can do better. And here's the take that given another opportunity, I could give you this. Like, there's an incredible amount of self-awareness that goes into that.

So is it learned? Is it not? And if it is learned, how does someone who maybe struggles with self-awareness today, if they struggle with self-awareness, maybe they don't know that they struggle with self-awareness? But if they did, let's say, how could someone maybe possibly work being more self-aware into their lives? what I always thought was they can't fire me because they haven't hired me yet.

So whenever I'm in that situation throughout the last 35 years, then it's like, let's go. Like I get excited when somebody hasn't hired me, then I'm like full swing. I get more tentative when I'm already working for them and I'm thinking, oh, is this a good idea? So for me, I did teach myself to get excited at the word no, no meaning not yet or next. Like I had to tell myself, here's an opportunity. I like being the underdog anyway. And so, you know, being a woman in sports television back in the late 80s and early 90s, like, yeah, you're definitely an underdog. But I think it's about looking at what's the worst that could happen.

I mean, I do. I believe in catastrophizing it and teaching yourself that there's opportunity and all these nose and all these rejections. I did teach myself that. And part of it is the ability to compete. I mean, people who shy away from competition really have a hard time in business and in life and in getting hired. I mean, I want to hire somebody who's willing to take a risk, fail, take direction. That's a big one, right? Not that you just know everything. And move forward. That's what excites me. Amory Anderson, the book is cultivating audacity. This has been a tremendous conversation.

I have absolutely adored it. And I think, you know, this is, your book is a, is a, it's a playbook for what we've talked about today, for stepping outside of yourself, for moving forward, for making those big moves. We'll absolutely guys have a link to the book in the show notes or YouTube description, wherever you're watching or listening. But where else can people get more of you and get deeper into your world? Do you have a newsletter or whatever? Where can people kind of connect with you and go deeper? Yes, thanks. My website's the best place to start,

Annmarieanderson.com. There's an E on the end of Anne. You can get the first chapter of cultivating audacity there for free so that you can kind of see how it works a little bit. And then I'm not just telling you to go for it, but I'm going to help you show you how. And then you'll find me on Instagram. Certainly there's a newsletter.

You can sign up unapologetically audacious. You can find that on the website as well. I love it. Thank you so much. We appreciate your time and wish you nothing but the best going forward. Thank you for having me, Ryan. Great conversation. Laboratory in the basement of his home. Since 2011, American Giant has been making everyday clothing with extraordinary effort. Not in far off factories, but right here in the USA. We obsess over fabrics, fit, and details, because if you're going to wear it every day,

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