Finding Peak w/ Ryan Hanley - Garage to Greatness: Manly Bands' Rise to Market Dominance

Episode Date: September 27, 2024

Spartan philosophy, built in the black-ops lab of business: https://www.findingpeak.comFinding Peak podcast: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanley John and Michelle Ruggiero, the visionary founders of Manly Bands, join us to share their remarkable journey from a garage startup to becoming the leading digital marketplace for men's wedding bands.Go deeper down the rabbit hole: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanleyConnect with Manly Bands:Website: https://manlybands.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/manlybands/With their unique backgrounds in filmmaking and marketing, they've crafted an unforgettable brand identity that breaks away from traditional norms in the men's jewelry market.Learn how their creative use of unconventional stock photos and humorous taglines like "buying a wedding band doesn't have to suck" set them apart, and how they've continued to innovate with customizable gold rings to cater to diverse customer preferences.As we explore the evolution of Manly Bands, John and Michelle reveal the strategies that helped them navigate significant challenges, including the COVID-19 pandemic and shifts in digital marketing regulations.They discuss their move towards in-house manufacturing for better quality control and cost-effectiveness, and their bold expansion into wholesale and retail markets to offer tangible product experiences. Hear their insights on the impact of changes in marketing technology and privacy regulations, and how they've adapted their strategies to maintain relevance in a competitive landscape.The Ruggieros also open up about the resilience and teamwork that have been crucial to their success. Discover how their dynamic as co-CEOs, coupled with a commitment to effective leadership and team support, has propelled Manly Bands forward.They share their vision of becoming the go-to brand for men's wedding rings, akin to Tiffany's for women's engagement rings, and the omni-channel marketing approach that distinguishes them in the market. Packed with inspiring stories and practical advice, this episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to build and grow a successful brand.--Recommended Tools for GrowthOpusClip: #1 AI video clipping and editing tool: https://link.ryanhanley.com/opusRiverside: HD Podcast & Video Software | Free Recording & Editing: https://link.ryanhanley.com/riversideWhisperFlow: Never waste time typing on your keyboard again: https://link.ryanhanley.com/whisperflowCaptionsApp: One app for all your social media video creation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/captionsappGoHighLevel: It's time to take your business workflow to the Next Level: https://link.ryanhanley.com/gohighlevelPerspective.co: The #1 funnel builder for lead generation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/perspective--Episodes You Might Enjoy:From $2 Million Loss to World-Class Entrepreneur: https://lnk.to/delkFrom One Man Shop to $200M in Revenue: https://lnk.to/tommymelloIs Psilocybin the Gateway to Self-Mastery? https://lnk.to/80upZ9This show is part of the Unplugged Studios Network — the infrastructure layer for serious creators. 👉 Learn more at https://unpluggedstudios.fm.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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Call 1-800 Granger, click granger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done. Happy holidays. Want to give your host a gift? Consider subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show this holiday season. It really helps the show grow. From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday. You know, we had taglines like, you know, buying a wedding band doesn't have to suck.

So that, hey, we're not your traditional jewelry store. Say no to boring wedding bands was something we pioneered back in the deck. With a finger. With the ring finger. Let's go. Yeah, make a look. Make a lick. Hey, stand up.

The Ryan Hanley Show shares the original ideas, habits, and mindsets of world-class original thinkers you can use to produce extraordinary results in your life and business. This is the way. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. We have a tremendous episode for you today, a conversation with John and Michelle Ruggiero, the founders of manly bands, the number one digital marketplace for men's wedding bands in the world. And I got to tell you, if you're a founder, if you're an entrepreneur, if you're a business owner, this episode, you're going to want to dial in on it.

You're going to want to really focus on what these guys say. They built this business out of their garage into an absolute behemoth. It is the branding, the style, the marketing, how they were able to be resilient through things like COVID, through changes in technology and advertising rules around like 2022 and iOS and Apple changed all their rules. rules, how they've been able to sustain and grow and ultimately thrive in that place. And we spend a lot of time digging into brand, brand tone, brand identity, and why that is such a key part to rapidly growing your business.

How people view you, how they relate to you, how they take to what you sell, how they feel about your product is so incredibly important to rapid growth and sustained growth. and John and Michelle are absolute experts on it. They're also wonderful people. This is a tremendous conversation. You're going to love it. And if you're in the market for a wedding band, I highly recommend manly bands.

That is not an advertisement. I just really like these two. And if I ever get married again, I will most likely be going to manly bands. If you enjoy this show, if you enjoy the episodes and you're not subscribed, please do. If you haven't left a rating and review of this show on Apple,

it would be incredibly meaningful to me. And be honest, if this is only a four-star show, if it's a three-star show. Geez, I hope it's a five-star show. But if you enjoy it and you're willing to leave a rating review, that would mean a lot to me. And if you're feeling super froggy,

share the show. Just email it to a friend, text it. That's how we continue to grow. We're consistently in the top 150 of all of Apple Podcasts. Such a blessing. And I just love bringing stories like the one John and Michelle are going to share today with you. And it means a lot if you help me grow the show.

So with that, and wow, I am destroying this intro today. My friends, I love you for listening to this show. I love you for being here. Let's get on to John and Michelle. And John, Michelle, it is amazing to have you on the show. I have like a million questions, so I'm so excited to get into it. Yeah, sounds great. We're happy to be here.

Thanks for having us. One of the things that comes up a lot when I was researching you, you started in your garage, you're both first-time entrepreneurs, yet have had incredible success. It is rare that someone kind of hits on their first rip. I'm assuming that you guys have some backstory that led into the success. Not necessarily the story of the foundation, but like what were some of the inputs, the learnings,

the like where did you get your knowledge to start? to create something on your own to begin with. Wow, that's a really good question, and it's definitely, it's been a journey. Maly Bens was definitely not our first endeavor at all. And in fact, we weren't even formally trained in the e-commerce space. Nope. We're both actually filmmakers.

And so when we started Maly Bands, thankfully, we had a number of years of experience doing creative things, which is how we kind of got the creative aspect of the brand going. I had some experience for running a marketing agency, a very small marketing agency out in California for a while. So we understood digital marketing and Shopify and website design and things like that. And we were lucky enough that on the 10th try that something worked out. So I think it was a combination of a lot of things, but definitely not our first radio. Yeah, John has always had businesses on the side.

You know, when we had our day jobs, you know, there's film screener and actor rated. There are always things that we were trying to do to improve the markets that we were in. Film Screener was a short film platform that John developed. It was really fun. And we started kind of a similar brand tone with that particular brand. And so when we went into Manly Bands, we had an idea of what we thought the brand was going to be already. It was awesome. Do you think having an idea of what you wanted the brand to be, and as you said, brand tone,

thing this before starting the project, led, you know, helped. you accelerate through success because I feel like so many companies go the opposite way. They get an idea for a product and then they go, what's the brand going to be? Right? Do you think, and it's not often you have that before. And you think that was a catalyst? Yeah, I mean, the brand tone was absolutely the catalyst for the whole idea, honestly. We were getting married and it was time for me to find a ring and we went into a jewelry store and, you know, I have large fingers. We couldn't find a ring. Not only that was my size, but that, you know, I liked that I felt, you represented me and, you know, the things that I like and, you know, my personality traits. And so

it was the kind of thing where it's like, geez, this whole experience in a jewelry store is just not really designed for a guy. It's, you know, but yet we all, who were married, 99% of us have jewelry that we wear in wedding rings. And so it was something we had talked about after that for the first few times who went to a jewelry store. I was like, gosh, like, I just wish there was a more manly way of approaching getting a men's wedding man. Like, it's just kind of crazy, not Not that I wanted to be like, rough and, you know, manly in that sense. But just like, why can't a guy get excited about having a ring that's just, you know, not in a dainty case and, you know, a pretty box?

Like, it just seems kind of strange to me that there's an accessory that's really marketed to the feminine side of things. But yet I'm a guy. I'm supposed to wear it for the rest of my life. And so it really was kind of that tone and that idea of the manly persona being like, how can we better connect this product, this experience, to a guy? Even if it's like a stereotypical sense of Manly, you know, how can we better kind of create that connection?

Yeah, and there was this really fun moment to where John came up with a brand name who's in this pool and our apartment complex in L.A. And he's floating around and he was like, like, it could be called Manly Bands. And it was as if when we figured out that name and we figured out the brand tone that, as John said, it really fueled everything. and it made sense, like everything from there was just, you know, oh, okay, great. Well, that's how this would fit into that brand. This is how it would fit onto the site.

And so starting with that brand name and brand tone and then letting it fuel you to sort of tell you with the business is was really great too because I feel like it really did. You know, it was super easy then to look at products, design products and say, well, that makes sense for this brand or that doesn't make sense. That's not us, you know, super easy to make those decisions. Yeah, for sure. I love reading books about copywriting. I just, I don't know why.

I just find the copywriting, and I'm not a copywriter, but I, you know, and I was just read, I literally just finished this morning, The Boron Letters by Gary Halper. And I don't know if you ever read it, but it's a great classic copyrighting book. And his whole philosophy is, is market, message, then product, right? That's like his entire philosophy is find a market, men who don't enjoy the wedding band shopping experience or just don't feel like they're satisfied with what they ultimately get, right?

What's the message, this idea of being a manly band, right? You can come here and, you know, I'm looking through it, I'm going meteorite, dinosaur bones, jackdank, you're like, it just speaks to whatever kind of niche interests a guy would have. And then you start to build the bands around it. And it's just that process makes so much sense to me. So, you know, you get this idea and you start to create these. And now you got to sell them. Like you said, you have no experience in e-commerce.

Like, how did you start to figure out that process? Because that's a whole other world beyond marketing and creating visuals or even product design is then actual distribution. So what did just the technical aspects of e-commerce look like for you? Sure, sure. So thankfully, I had some experience, again, running a little boutique marketing agency at the time. And so I understood Facebook marketing and Google ads and things like that. And so we kind of took the approach of, okay, let's see how we can disrupt this industry. You know, you look at regular Facebook ads at the time.

This was early or late 2016. And we were saying, okay, Facebook is definitely where we want to be. We felt like that's where our customers were. That's where we could really target, especially back then. You could target much, I don't want to say more effectively, but more transparently. Like certainly for now, you know, nowadays with Facebook Advantage campaigns, and things like that, there's kind of a black box component. But back then, you had all this information

before the privacy laws changed, and you could really be effective on Facebook. And so we kind of put our heads together and said, okay, who's the persona? Who's our ideal customer? It's, you know, should we talk to the other half of the equation first? And in a lot of cases, get the women involved.

Like, how can we resonate with them with the message? And so we tried a whole bunch of different angles with our copy and with our creative. And we found a couple messages. that really resonated. I remember one in particular that was really interesting. It was, I'm sure there's a word or a technical name for the strategy. I'm not sure what it would be, but, you know, we kind of said,

hey, is your man dragging his feet, getting his wedding band? And, you know, hey, check out manly bands and get a ring he really likes. And the responses we got from the future wife was just fascinating. I mean, it almost, I don't want to say it went viral. It wasn't quite that big, but it was crazy, the engagement we were getting. Oh man, I can't believe it. I've been asking him for months. Why does he wait so long?

Why is he waiting to the last minute? And the engagement was great. And so I guess it got great CPCs and CPAs were great. It was just we found a message that resonated. And I think that just further kind of convinced us that having this brand tone, this angle of irreverence and, you know, joking around and playing fun with, you know, with just the relationship dynamics was much better than like what you see from other jewelry stores. It was a fresh kind of perspective and viewpoint.

And, you know, people really, they thought it was humorous and they connected with it. Yeah, we definitely skirted around the like, love is forever, you know, branding and got to people on like a real level. And as John was saying, talking to the other half of the relationship, you know, we found that at the time, like 70% of our customers were female. And so that was really interesting to us. And so we tried to dig into that and figure out, okay, like John was mentioning, you know, what kind of messaging is going to resonate? with them. And so I think that's one of the biggest steps we would have is always know who your customer is and know what their problem is that they're trying to solve. And then like, you know, talk to them. Just talk to them as people connect with them. And then they will, they will talk back.

You know, it's fun to play with them. Yeah, you can almost picture like the, the fiancé, the female, you know, with the computer, shoving it in front of his space. Like, I pick, I got, I'm on this website. Like, these are cool. Like, pick one of these. Let's just put it done. It was even one thing that was really interesting is in those first few months, we actually, we were trying to do it without showing the ring. Like, we really wanted to be different and stand out. In most jewelry stores at the time, you know, they'd show these beautiful pictures of rings. And back then we're like, let's just get a stock photo, a face of a dude, like wearing a beanie or something. Like, you know, how can we connect that?

And that actually performed better we found later on when we started doing pictures of rings, which was really interesting to me. I was like, this is really strange. Like, they don't even need to see the picture. It's, to them, it's more about that emotional connection to the situation, which in this case was getting their future husband to buy his ring. So it's just really funny. Nowadays, we do a combination of both because we want to show the product. But it was quite a learning experience.

Yeah, you know, I'm divorced now, but I remember when I, it's like, the women's section is like seven cases. And then the guys get about seven inches. And they're like, you know, and basically the guys, like, oh yeah, you need one too. They're right there. You know, that's like how the whole sales process goes inside a jewelry store. Oh, it's so true. It's often like a throwaway almost. You totally feel insignificant as a guy when you go in there. It's just like, hey, if you buy her, this ring for her, we'll throw in a tungsten band for you. And it totally devalues the product,

and it just doesn't make it special, I think, as a guy. This is going to be kind of a tactical question. I'm just interested. You said you eventually found this message and you shared one of the hooks that really worked and how many were you trying were you were you trying dozens hundreds like I think a lot of people and this I know this is highly tactical but there's a lot of people who are in this in the business world they're listening right now are you tired of endless follow-ups and missed opportunities in your sales process chasing leads is a losing game that's why I created the one call closed system a battle tested sales system that uses behavioral

psychology to close deals in just one call. No more, let me think about it. No more, I'll get back to you. Using the one call closed system, we took new reps from 25% close ratio to over 80% in just three months. To grow fast, you must close deals faster at zero extra marketing cost.

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and then putting that out and hoping that works. And I kind of heard you infer to trying a lot. So I'd love you to just talk through the testing process and how you ideated through ideas for drawing people in. Yeah, for sure. I think we did a lot of brainstorming, a lot of brainstorming, a lot of Google Sheets. I think there was a website called AdExpresso. Is that ring a bell?

This was years ago. It may still be around. But they would allow you to kind of create cool combinations of copy by putting in your ideas. And I'm sure now AI will do that for you. But there was a lot of testing. They're like, huh, how can we connect? Where are some funny relationship, you know, jokes or whatnot? Like, is there a way to kind of just catch their attention and stand out?

And, you know, the other thing, too, is we consider ourselves back then more of a disruptive-type company because we were really the first folks to kind of take this tone and this brand angle when it came to men's jewelry. And so we wanted to make sure that came across and that, hey, we're not your traditional jewelry store. You know, we had taglines like, you know, buying a wedding band doesn't have to suck. Like, I remember we kind of tested our way into that. You know, not your granddad's wedding bands or not your dad's wedding bands. Or what was the other one? It doesn't say no to boring ones.

wedding bands was something we pioneered back in the deck. With a finger with the ring finger, yeah. And so we wanted people to identify with the brand and find it humorous and laugh a little bit and, you know, chuckle about the concept of, you know, true stories are so stuffy and they're so, from a guy's perspective, boring. How can we make it exciting? How can we make it fun, irreverence? And kind of have that dollar shave club slash Old Spice tonality that resonated with me and my friends.

And, you know, a lot of people who just appreciate that kind of humor. See, I think a lot of people get caught, too. And when they try to play right down the line with a brand, they're trying to capture the market. So obviously, by you guys taking this tone, you know, there is going to be some subset of the market that's a lot stuffy or whatever. That's just their way they're always going to be. Yep. Yeah. What advice that you guys have, being that your brand is, you've worked so hard on it and that you really have it dialed in.

And I know you probably continue to test and stuff, but that you have a clear vision for what your brand is. And how do you mentally get past that idea that there will always be a segment of the market that just doesn't relate to the message? Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. We recently got a gold collection. And then, of course, we got the one ring too. It's like you can't have the one ring and not have gold rings, you know? So we've got the one ring, man.

You know, it's awesome. So, yeah, we did launch a gold line last year. And so we now have what that market wants. And it's actually been really helpful for us as a brand to test and see, okay, well, exactly what would you like in terms of gold? And so we developed what we call build your own ban, you know, where you can come in and you can kind of, you know, oh, well, I want this finish or I want, you know, that profile or something or I want that width. So you really get to play with that. And so for us, it's still manly bands. It's a gold wedding ring, but it's still manly bands because you get to put your stamp on it and it's something special as opposed to, oh, just from the five.

rings that I got to choose from I just picked that one you know so we we still try to make that experience special to them I love the idea of build your own band just what a I mean that's just I mean obviously I was going through everything and I was looking through it and I was going geez if I ever get married again I know exactly where I'm going because like meteorite dinosaur I'm like that kind of that like exoteric kind of stuff like that just grabs me you know what I mean I'm like that's just a fun thing to have and to talk about you like the idea that you can it's not just another gold band on your finger. It's like a statement of, you know, and a statement of maybe the irreverence of your relationship. I mean, it's just, it's just wonderful. Yeah. We have a

a Joker and a Harley, oh, sorry, I was just going to say we have a Joker and a Harley Quinn ring. So like speaking of like speaking to your relationship, you know, we've got lots of couples that buy that combination too, you know, and that's super fun. I love it. Yeah, that stuff. It's just, it's funny how it's like you didn't know you needed that this kind of thing in your life until it is and then all of a sudden you're like I can't even imagine buying another gold right you know it this way it's funny and I have seen you know the trend away from just a solid gold obviously has been there and you guys have been a part of it but I was I see more and more guys with you know just different color black a lot of black and stuff like talking a little bit about the seasons you've been through because before we went live you mentioned that you guys are going back to growth mode, which to me signals a new season in the business. So maybe walk me through some of the seasons that you've experienced since 2016 and how you've had to change strategy or whatever during those time. Yeah, do you know, it's not just the seasons, but I mean, I guess as a company for sure, but it's like other factors that we never expected. Like just

the the growth curve of the e-commerce industry in general, I'm sure you've, you've talked to a lot of people where it's the last couple years, you know, the impact of COVID, the, uh, just the economy and just buying behavior from people and recessions and things like that all have tremendous impact. I believe certainly on our business. So between that being like one series of components that affect our business is also the technology part. And I feel like in the last, well, certainly since 2022 with the roll out of iOS 14, like it, um, that really changed how we market and how we engage our customers. and remarketing and things like that.

So that's all other set of variables that created seasonality for us. And I think, you know, we've just tried to kind of weather all these storms. And, you know, I'm very grateful that we've had the team to really make that work, because I've seen a lot of brands that we're close with not survive all of that turmoil. And so we've been really fortunate. I think when we started the business, we were in a really good place in terms of the e-commerce industry and technology. and you know we were able to run ads that could be very profitable whereas you know nowadays you know the ROAS is a lot lower than it was back then so we have to find other ways

to get in front of customers and reduce our CPAs and CPCs and such and so it's um i would say just to kind of go through the seasons i say 2016 to 2020 was a period of immense growth uh yeah it was great it was like a rocket ship um and then um and then technology started to change covid happened and so well we were one of the fortunate ones obviously COVID was devastating to the world, but in terms of e-commerce and even more so on the wedding industry side, we got very lucky. A lot of weddings were canceled or pushed because, you know, the in-person part of that, but we found that a lot of folks also, they knew they wanted to get their wedding ring,

even if they couldn't have their wedding, and they didn't necessarily want to go to stores because of COVID. And so they would go online. And so we actually saw a huge bump in sales during COVID, which was really helpful for us so that we could take care of our team and stay in business and such. And so we did really well through COVID. And then when things started to normalize, we were happy to see that, but our top line was not happy to see that. We definitely came back down to a more normalized approach as things started to,

thankfully, kind of go back to normal from a retail perspective. And so, you know, we made some adjustments. I mean, certainly, you know, in the beginning of all that, we thought the rocket ship was just going to continue and we bought all this extra inventory. We were ready to go. And I've heard horror stories of e-com companies buying so much extra inventory, and then they couldn't sell it back when things normalized and they kind of got stuck. Thankfully, we've been able to sell it and go through it, but it was certainly a challenge just to kind of weather going back to normalcy. And then, of course, 2022, the marketing technology changed.

And so that was kind of a bumpy road for a while. And I'd say, you know, we're really just starting to kind of figure it out. And so we weren't seeing super high growth, but we also weren't necessarily seeing a huge dip either. We've been basically flat the last couple of years in terms of growth. So we've been focusing on optimization and profitability. And so that's really kind of where our focus has been, is just on, you know, how can we more effectively generate profit and optimize our various teams? And then in 2022, we brought manufacturing in-house because it was a more cost-effective way in a lot of cases for some of our high-end rings,

like the Jack Daniels and meteorite for us to make them in-house. And it also gave us a really better opportunity to kind of make sure that quality was where we wanted it to be because we're selling wedding bands. We want to make sure that these rings are the highest quality we can make them, and we don't necessarily want to rely on other vendors. And so that's been great for us, too, from an optimization standpoint. So now we do manufacturing.

We have our own warehouse in-house here. Our marketing team, for the most part, is in-house, customer service is in-house, creative teams in-house. And so we've been really lucky. So the seasons have changed, but I feel like we've adjusted to all of them. And we're actually in a really good place right now.

Yeah, and where we're going from now is back into growth. You know, the idea is, okay, you know, what does the market need now? And the biggest complaint we get from our customers is I want to be able to touch and feel your product. And so our push right now is to wholesale and retail, you know, to try and get into more places where the customer can actually walk in and like touch and feel the product.

And does that mean like moving into, say, traditional jewelry stores and they carry your brand and license, or not license it, but they're retailing a brand that you're wholesaling now? Yeah. So yes and no. So yes, definitely. But also the other part of it, which I think is helpful for kind of all business owners in the e-com space, is to think outside the box. So, for instance, you know, one of the places we're playing with is, you know, sports stores,

you know. but like higher-end sports stores like Bass Pro Cabela's and stuff, you know, those kinds of ideas have been, you know, floating to the top as well of where is our customer? because we also have a customer base that is married, but wants a ring that they actually care about. Or it's been 20 years and it's time for another ring or they see one of ours and they're like, ooh, actually, I'd rather wear that. You know, that's really cool.

That's more me. You know, you weren't around when we were getting married. So I'm excited that you are now. So we want to be in those places for that customer too. And because we have these two very different customers, the one that's getting married for the first time and the one who's been married and, you know, we say is upgrading their ring,

we want to be in places for both of them. those. So for us, it's like, it's a large spread in terms of the places that we're targeting because of that. I had never considered the idea that you would upgrade or replace your ring. That's a really interesting. What does that market look like? Like, how, how do you get in front of them? Because that's not even an idea that would hit my brain. Sure. Yeah. So the way, the way we knew to get in front of them is by testing it, of course, but also we had our own retail stores here in Utah, and we found that a very large percentage of our customers that were coming into the store, we're just there, you know, with their other half kind of browsing around, and then they're like, manly bands,

what's this? They kind of like pop in and they're, you know, educated on what we do. And just like, you know, Hallmark has convinced us that we have to have a card for every season, you know, then they had a bit of an uphill battle in doing that, but now we all buy the cards for every season. And, you know, it's now, it's up to manly bands for us to convince that customer when they walk in, hey, are you not excited about your band? Because we have, you know, we've got all these cool bands right here to show you. I like, like you to the trash go. I'm having to get you into this way.

How can I do that? What are we going to do? You know, it's, you know, to answer your question. You're not in the 1970s in New York City movie, right? It's like, no, right. Well, that's how we go to dinner parties. I just have a trench country. It's all of our rings, and I just open it up.

And I'm like, Manly Bans is here. No, that would be great, though. That's a video idea. Thank you. That's your next video video right there. No, I love that. You know, I was thinking in my head when I was looking through the site, and I was like, looking at all the different colors and styles.

And I was like, and the idea that, and, you know, I think this is a relatively new idea is, you know, let's say you're doing something physical. You take off your main band. You put on, say, a silicon band. or something so you can do our athletic stuff. That was always my beef was I didn't have a silicon band, and I hated doing anything athletic or physical with my band on. Okay.

So if you're going to take it off and trade it, why couldn't you have, like, a band for when you're wearing a brown belt and a band for when you have a black belt on and a band for when you're formal band for what you know what you're. Like, you could almost have a series of them and change them out, like you change your watch or you change anything else than you wear. That's a really interesting. idea. I, I, well, I haven't been married for three years, so I'm a little out of the game.

But, you know, these are all things that I didn't think about back in the day. That's right. But it is a whole new. And I, yeah, that's wonderful. So I want to touch on a couple things. One, you've mentioned the marketing technology change. And I think some of my audience does a lot of D to C or Facebook marketing, they'll understand what you're talking about. But I'd love for you maybe just to break that down a little bit for maybe individuals that are thinking about starting. a business and would have to use, you know, kind of ad technology or people maybe just don't

necessarily understand exactly what those changes were in the impact. Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean, it's, and I'm no expert in it either, but I'll do my best to kind of break down as I understand it. But the biggest thing was just privacy laws changed. And so the back in the day, I guess the OG e-commerce days of 2021, back prior to these changes with Apple privacy, it was possible for browsers to drop cookies that would essentially allow you to hold on to that identity or that IP or Mac address, however it worked, for a much longer period of time. And I'd say like a minimum of 30 days. I think it expanded out to 90 days or whatever. But what happened is, is iOS adjusted some of their privacy settings based on laws that were being passed. They were trying to

get ahead of it. And so I believe they set it to like seven days. And that was for pretty much steady Safari browser. And so on your iPhone, if you're on Facebook and you go to a web page or Instagram or if you're just using Safari, it pretty much uses the iOS Safari framework as a browser. And so 99% of the time, if you're on a web page on your phone, it's an iPhone, it's going to be protected by that Apple privacy setting. And so you may notice now, like when you set up a new phone or whatnot, you can opt in or opt out. And the opt out is the default. And so what we saw was a gigantic drop in the number of cookie people that we had on our remarketing lists. And so remarketing, of course, is being able to go after somebody multiple times with ads and showing it to them.

And so essentially we went from being able to show someone an ad, you know, seven, eight, nine, ten times over the course of 30 days to only really having like a seven-day window to kind of get their attention, show them why we're the best, and convert them. that's particularly hard as a wedding band company or as a company that sells items over like 200 bucks. It's not an impulse buy where, hey, it's a hoodie. I really like it. I'm going to buy it. It's 30 bucks or whatever. You know, and you just kind of go for it. You know, but I think for us, it's, hey, I got to talk to my fiance.

I'm going to, you know, make sure I like it. I'm going to look up, you know, what the right material is best for me or, you know, I want to kind of compare some of these other sites that sell rings and things like that. And so the window for us is really important for it to be a little long. longer. And when those changes come out, while they're good for society, they weren't great for us. And it affected many, many other e-com companies as well. Yeah. I'm actually going to push back on your, it's good for society because I'll tell you, Instagram used to have me so perfectly dialed in with, like, stuff that I liked. And now I get all these random ads from crap that I don't even want. I'm like, it used to know perfectly. Like, I did, if I wanted to shop, I just scrolled through

Instagram and it was like, no, that's a really good point. Now it's like, yeah, yeah, random stuff. So I'm going to. That's a great point. I don't know that it actually was. I'm not being cookie again. Let's bring it back. All the cookies. That's a really good point.

I mean, you're right. I mean, being able to have a better experience on social media, we, everyone knows it's dominated by ads. That's how these companies make their money. And you're right. I'd rather see something I'm interested in, I guess, than something completely unrelated. So while, yeah, while privacy is important, we don't want people getting scammed, it does affect our ability to have a good experience.

So, and I think that's where those platforms are. coming from when they're like, guys, we got to find a way around this. Like, people are not having a good experience. They're not as sticky on our platforms when we're showing them irrelevant advertising. It's not good for our advertisers. So it's definitely, there's a two sides to that coin for sure. And so the technology has changed in that respect, but it's also changed in how we deal with that perspective too, which is obviously super helpful for brands like us. And there's now different ways to do identity resolution. There's different ways to capture emails with pop-ups and things like that that we can really benefit.

Our focus is now much more heavily on capturing email addresses so that we can email people down the road. And email is like a super important and large part of our monthly revenue. Like it's really about nurturing with us. And like most D to C brands, you really have to kind of explain to the customer why they should buy from you, why this product is the best for them. And email is great for that when all these changes are happening on platform on the other sites. Are you guys familiar with the Chubbies brands? Yeah, very familiar. So there I was,

I was doing a keynote and I used them as an example the other day to this group. And, you know, I was showing them some of the emails and I'm like, it literally, I'm like, guys, it doesn't talk about the shorts. They're wearing the shorts in these little graphics, but it's just a story. And I would read these things. And I'm like, I read these because they're hilarious. And they're like, got this like dead pants sarcastic humor and it's kind of off the cuff and they're like really funny. And at the end, they're like, and if you want some crazy, you know, psychedelic rooster shorts, you know, we have to, you know, flip this butt. And guess what brand of swim drunks I wear?

You know what I mean? Like it's, you know, this kind of stuff really draws in. And I guess where I want to go with my next question is does things like, say, this, this, this tactical issue that you have with advertising, maybe just the fact that more people, there's more specialists and expertise in this area now, just because it's been around for a decade plus, does that force you to kind of raise your game from a creative, a copy, a visual standpoint? Like, is it more cream rises to the top and everything else kind of sinks because of the technical limitations that you have now?

Yeah, I mean, our game has definitely up-leveled in terms of copy, in terms of visuals, you know, whether it be photos or video. And thankfully, on our side, you know, John is super, super savvy at all of that. We also have an amazing creative team, too, that's always learning new tricks and tips. And we're always just trying to out-innovate ourselves. You know, we have a couple of overachievers on the creative team, which is really fun. And copy is really important to us, too, just that brand town. So, yeah, it's a constant, you know, fight to be at the top.

It's kind of like being the popular girl. you know, you have to like keep getting your hair done a certain way, keep the lipstick on, you know, like, you definitely have to work to stay popular. I'm not familiar with that problem. I'll take her word for it. You got to date the right boys, you know. I guess, yeah. I didn't have that issue in place. But I think to your point, though, it really is about saying on top of things.

I mean, it's, you have to. It's changing so fast. And it's, you know, it's hard to do that when, you know, we're co-Ceos. We're running the company. We have things far outside of marketing that we're dealing with on a daily basis. And it's just, it's almost a full-time job. So we're really fortunate that we have an amazing CMO

and an amazing brand director and creative team and everybody on our team is really, really, like, in the weeds, keeping track of all these things and these changes. And our agencies are on top of things. Like, it's just, you have to be. Because if you're not, you can really miss some great opportunities. And I feel like it's those brands that kind of get complacent

that are running the same ads for multiple years that don't test different copy and changing their targeting or not trying to find new audiences. Those are the ones that, you know, they might do great in the beginning, but over time they are going to kind of see a decrease in traffic and revenue because they're just not, they're not actively competing.

They're not trying to better themselves. And so for us, that innovation, the testing new things is something that we always have to do just so we can stay ahead and, you know, be relevant. Yeah, I love the idea of testing, and I know in my own, I know you guys probably don't mind the story, but I founded an independent insurance agency that was fully digital, very innovative for that particular space. It would be remedial for you guys, but for the insurance industry, it was mind-blowing. And, you know, speaking to your point about, is this funny, I'm listening to you guys talk,

and I'm like, I'm like, because I'm not the marketing or branding wizards that you guys are, but like I found this name Rogue Risk. And I was searching and I kind of knew what I wanted. And then when I found this name, mostly because the URL was available and I like illiterations. But then it was once I found the name Rogue, it was like, okay, now I kind of know my tone. We're going to be the kind of anti-insurance brand,

not anti-the-product, but the births, here's what everything else looks like. We're going to do fine. I literally told my marketing person one day, I'm like, look at what. Everyone else does, and you can't do any of those things. Exactly. And that was kind of how we built it.

But the testing piece was always a struggle because, you know, as a, there's cost to testing, right? There's time to testing. And I feel like so many brands miss that step, right? They miss that. And I hear you guys talking. And hopefully everyone who's listening at home, like this is a huge takeaway from this. Like not once have I heard you guys say, we knew exactly what we wanted. You were like, we had this idea, so we tested it.

And then we tested it more. And then we let the winners come to the top. You know, there's the famous Tim Ferriss with the four-hour work week. You know, he came up with 100 titles of that book. And he said that the four-hour work week, if he had to rank him, would have been like 97th. And then he ran Google ads for all hundred titles to nothing, to a nothing page. that there was nothing they could do. And four-hour work week was just an exponential winner over the rest,

and that's why he named the book. He would have never named it on his own. And when you think about that, it's like that's how we find success because we don't know all the answers. I have two more topics that I want to touch on real quick. One, what I've heard as a through line that you guys haven't addressed specifically,

but I've kind of picked up on is your resilience through all these different changes, right? There's tons of challenges that come from high growth. COVID was its own series of challenges, right? And even that, you know, you described, even though you had a huge growth, you know, you have all these questions around inventory. And then this tactical or privacy change happens with marketing and, you know, you're adding different. How have you, look, what do you think it is about specifically the two of you as leaders? that you've maintained resilience through, you know, this eight, nine-year period of time

and all the different things have happened. Like, you certainly have to have some quality where others would have given up, others would have given in, they maybe would have just sold out, or they would have just said, hey, this is too hard? You've kept going. Is it the fact that there's two of you? Is it personality traits of belief structure? I'd love for you to talk about that.

Well, I think I'll take this one. Sure. We both. Yeah. That's a really good question. And I think that for us kids, it's always, we have a hard time giving up. So I'll start with that. We're a little stubborn.

We really just have a really hard time giving up. And so, and I think like most entrepreneurs are like that, like you put your blood, your sweat, your soul into this, and you just, you're going to make it work. One way or the other, and, you know, you're just going to do your best. And so that's the big part of it. That's our goal is to always do our best. us and never give up. But that said, like I think our secret, if you can call it that, is to just never try to be the smartest person in the room. And it's it's realizing that we don't

know at all. We haven't done this before at this level. And the best thing we can do as leaders is create the team that can do it. And so, you know, we always say, you know, people like, oh, it's amazing what you guys have done. And it's like, no, you don't understand. We didn't do this. Like, the amazing. people we surround ourselves are the ones who did this, the people who specialize in marketing, who bring the CFO experience, the incredible team that we have making rings. It's like, always stay humble and always realize that your job as CEO and as a leader is to surround yourself with people who are so much better than you and who can kind of take your direction

and do all those amazing things. You know, we have amazing warehouse folks that just optimize the heck out of everything that they're doing. And they've done such a great job, lowering costs and being more efficient and, you know, shipping things out same day. And it's just, it's incredible. You know, the CS team, you know, it's such a small team, but they, they handle thousands of tickets a month because they've spent time trying to figure out what, what can we do to be more efficient?

Like, how can we leverage AI? Like, how can we leverage chat? And I truly, I think it's just realizing that you don't have all the ideas. Not all your ideas are going to work. So test, but also make sure you have the right team. around you and that's, I think, our secret to success. It's not really a secret. I think that's how any good business is run. Yeah, I think two things. So support. I feel like management usually gets characterized as, you know, farming tasks down to the, you know, the direct reports below you.

And to me, management is the opposite and that your direct reports are doing the things that they're supposed to do, but it's up to you to support the ability of them to do what they do. So if they hit a quirk, you know, technology is not working or they need more people on their team. It's up to you to solve those problems so that they can keep doing what they do, because otherwise then they're in the weeds trying to solve those problems, and they can't do what they do. So that's how I look at management. And then the other thing I would say that maybe is our secret sauce is leading as co-CEOs has been really helpful. My heart goes out to CEOs who are a single person, you know, a single person doing this job because it's really hard. And, you know, we've separated. We've separated.

it into the things that we're good at, you know, like I'm good at the details, so I do all the detail works, the operations, the products, you know, creative stuff like that. And then John does the marketing and finance, and he's over the marketing team because that's his expertise. So I think it's really important to, you know, not just be a leader, but also like lead in the way that your brain works and put yourself in a place for success. Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't, with everything you said more. It is, it is, it is the idea that you are there to support your teeth. So I, I, I, this isn't my first podcast.

I've done like 2,000 interviews for the most of my high career as a podcaster. And I've talked to him to be helped thousands of leaders somewhere in that. And they're, the leaders that have been successful and have continued to be successful since their interview. view, they express that exact same sense. And that sentiment to me is the cornerstone of a leader who sustains is that idea of, I'm here to support you, not the other way around. And I feel like we don't talk about that enough. We, you know, we talk about, hey, we need to, here's how you make a good decision, and here's a mental framework for getting to this, and here's a growth strategy, and all that stuff is important. But at the end of the day, like, if your people aren't willing to,

to come to work and kill themselves for you, you're not going to be able to sustain. It's just such a lost concept I feel like, and I don't, maybe not lost, maybe just it was never found. Maybe we did something we don't talk about, but it is so intrinsic to the long-term success. How do you guys keep your relationship together through all this?

Marriage. We're selling love. It would be totally superficial if we said that, you know, it's so easy, no problem in a piece of cake. Like, that is, it is difficult. And it is, it's funny, we talk to a lot of people about how we're co-seos and co-founders and we're also married. And it's, they ask, how do you do it? Like, my God, I could never do that. And it's like, you know what?

I think it's because not only do we love and support each other and respect each other, but I'd also say we also know how to get out of each other's way. And like Michelle said, we very much have divided and conquered. And I think that's incredibly true. We really, really, really try to stick to that. Like, if Michelle wants to do something that involves technology, you know, sometimes I have a reminder, hey, that's my lane. Let me figure that out.

You know, please make your suggestions, but let me decide on that. And same way with her, when it comes to operations type stuff for customer service, it's like, you know, what do you think of? this. Like, you're in charge of this. This is your area of expertise and, you know, what are your thoughts there? And so it really helps reduce any sort of conflict. And I think the other thing, too, is just not to have an ego. Like, we really try hard to be compassionate and understanding and not only with our whole team, but with each other. You know, this is, it's a big job. And it's, you know, we have a large team of people, about 35, 40 people now. And it's, it's something that

we didn't expect the company to grow this far, this fast. We're super grateful and we're super pleased that it has, of course. But, you know, we were just doing this out of our garage. We just wanted to pay rent. You know, this wasn't the kind of thing where it's like, let's become the global stop for men's wedding rings. Like, that wasn't in the initial business plan. And so we're thrilled, but it's gotten us here. But it's definitely been a bit of a learning curve, I'd say, from a relationship standpoint.

You know, we've always been good about dividing it up, but it's definitely add its bumps and I think that it's just a true testament to how much we love each other that we're able to make it work. Yeah, you know, there's also like there's the element of kindness, which you were describing, you know, and saying like, in a kind way, hey, you're stepping on my turf, you know, can you get out of here nicely? And so we try to be nice to each other and comical and whatnot, but that division of labor is so incredibly important. If we didn't have those sort of like guardrails, you know, to hold each other accountable, then I don't know how we would do that. And then, yeah, just the classic, like, we have to work on ourselves. We have to work on our

relationship, you know, just like everybody else who has, you know, three kids at home. And they're dealing with all of the things that go on with that. Our kid is mainly bans. It's just, like, needs a lot of attention all the time. And so it's a similar setup when we talk to parents about, oh, I have all these obligations to my kid. You know, I have all these obligations to the home and to their school and whatever. We have all. these obligations at work. And so it's just a different lens, but same kind of idea at this age, really. Yeah, for sure. And we also have, we have two cats, too. They're important. They're very important. I will tell them you didn't mention them. No, so I was so sorry. The taser that you put in

his wedding ring probably helps too. No, what's why I'm doing that? That's right. I was wondering why my finger is. Oh, yeah, that's one of our cats. Yeah. Thank you for you. All right. So wrapping up here, two questions are close. One is, and this, I do want to be a short answer because I want it to be like right off the top of your head. Ten years from now, manly bands is where?

Oh, man. So our goal, when we started, we talked about this. We said, okay, well, this was not when we started. Like I said, that was, we just wanted to pay rent. But I'd say like a couple of years into it, we're like, okay, this is kind of working. Like we got to see how far we can take this and continue to innovate and grow. So what does that mean? And we sat down and we said, you know, when I think of women's engagement rings, like what brand do I think of?

And for me, I think Tiffany's. And I think a lot of people do. And so, but I said, you know what? I think men's wedding bands. What do I think? Like, you know, I think local jeweler. I think, you know, I don't really think of any brand. And so I said, you know what?

for me, I'd like our goal to be, let's make sure when people think men's wedding rings or wedding bands, they think manly bands. And so 10 years from now, I would like to think that we've gotten to the point where people know us as that. Yeah. It's like hand me a Kleenex, right? No matter what brand is, it's a manly band.

Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. All right, last question. I'm going to put this back to you. what question didn't I ask about what you guys are doing that you would think is there anything on licensing

that could be fun to you? Well I would yeah I guess along those lines I would say you know what are we doing and what maybe what brand advice or advice do we give other brands on maybe how to make sure they're always standing out

from their perhaps saturated industries or markets And I would say for us, what we've learned is that the Omnichannel approach to marketing is super important. And I think that it's not just about Facebook and Google. We still spend a ton of money on Facebook and Google. But we've learned that we need to go outside of that, not just to find new customers, but also to get away from the competition. There's now a lot of competition in the men's space. And it's great to see the innovation and all that stuff. And we're able to stay ahead of it, which is awesome.

but if we didn't try new things, if we didn't try channels like connected TV, if we didn't try things like postcards in the mail, billboards, I feel like we wouldn't necessarily have that edge. And so to any brand that's starting out or has a lot of competition or really wants to grow and take things seriously

and kind of become like a real legitimate brand in the sense that they're not just some Facebook store, I would say try to find ways to stand out, you know, not only in your marketing, but even in your, for instance, product innovation for us. A big thing for us is you see if you go to our website is licensing. No other ring company is really doing that,

certainly not at the scale we are. We're partnering with national, international brands that people recognize and love to incorporate that material or that branded IP into our rings, which then gives us credibility. It gives us better reach into their audience. There are innovative ways to do that that are far beyond just running Facebook ads or Google,

ads. And I feel like for us as a brand, that's really what has helped us grow, especially the last four years, you know, with all that marketing turmoil that we saw up and down, it was like, okay, we have to really distinguish ourselves and do something really cool. And we're going to get the message out in new and different ways, and we're going to innovate in new and different ways. And by doing that, it helped us stay relevant in the head. Yeah. And I think separately, one bit of advice I would have, too, I feel like so many people come up with great ideas for great products. And testing, as you said earlier is super important, but also if you feel stuck, if you have a great product and you don't understand why people aren't attaching, it could be the branding. And I think sometimes

innovators in just like technology or just like, you know, mechanics and they create something amazing engineers, they don't necessarily have the head for marketing or for branding. And it is absolutely okay and the best choice possible to go find a person who does have that head and understands how to market that thing. I think, you know, where John and I are, you know, where John and I are, you uniquely qualified to do what we do is because we actually come from the entertainment industry. And in the entertainment industry, like there are ways to brand, you know, the show that you're working on, or the character you're playing, or, you know, you as an actor, or, you know, this movie that you're doing. Like, what's the tone of this movie? What are the brand colors of it? What's

the font? You know, all of that stuff is really important. And so I think if things aren't working, but you feel like they should be working, you know, take a step back and look at how you're appealing to the market. Talk to friends, you know, talk to friends of friends. Do a, a small like, you know, zero cost survey, just asking people, what am I missing? You know, what would resonate with you more? What do you need me to tell you about this product? Yeah, and I guess just the last thing I would add to that is something that I think we've learned over the years is just always be humble. Be humble. You don't know everything. Always see what other people in your space are doing and don't drink your own Kool-Aid. We've done that and we've learned

from it every time, but don't ever make assumptions like, well, I don't have any examples, but just don't make assumptions. You're the biggest. You're the best. Yeah, you're the biggest. You're the best. Like, always assume that there's somebody nipping at your heels and you have to out-innovate and that you could be wrong and test everything because that's the key.

I mean, you can go for years making these assumptions and they may or may not work out the way you want it to. But if you tested it first, you might have known right away. And so we've learned that lesson along the way, too. John, Michelle, this has been an absolute pleasure. You have a fan and a future customer. I just appreciate your time so much. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks so much for having us. This was great. We appreciate it. Let's go. Yeah, make a look. Make it look. Thank you for listening to the Ryan Hanley show. Be sure to subscribe and leave us a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts.

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