Finding Peak w/ Ryan Hanley - How I Built a $1B Business – Cameo CEO Steven Galanis

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. We have a tremendous conversation for you today with Stephen Galanis, co-founder and CEO of Cameo. Yes, that cameo, the marketplace where you can connect with creators, sports, with athletes, celebrities, all kinds of different influencers, icons, and have them send personalized messages either back to you or to a team member, a loved one, people use Cameo to send happy birthday messages, thank you messages, crank congratulations messages. It's a wonderful platform for connecting people with the individuals that they follow, that have influenced their lives, who've done meaningful work,

Starting point is 00:00:44 and building that business, while as Stephen will describe, you know, Cameo had product market fit from very early on, was not without its major crises throughout its development, and we get into those. Dig deep on the leadership philosophy that Stephen and his founding team have used to navigate those crises and what has consistently allowed them to bounce back and be one of the most successful marketplace businesses of our age. Wonderful, wonderful conversation. You are going to love it.

Starting point is 00:01:20 If you're watching this on YouTube, please like the video. Subscribe to the channel if you haven't already. on Apple or Spotify, subscribe, leave a rating and review. It's incredibly meaningful to me. It's telling those platforms that more people should watch the show, and it helps connect us with more audience members, helps us grow the show. And then if you have questions, comments, et cetera,

Starting point is 00:01:41 YouTube is where we capture those, and we pull off those questions in future episodes when we do our Q&A show. So I love you guys for being here. Love you for listening to the show. With that, let's get on to this absolutely tremendous conversation with Stephen Galanis. in the basement of his home.

Starting point is 00:02:19 Steve, it's great to have you on the show, man. I appreciate you making the time. Thanks for having me. Yeah, there's a part super early in your story that I'm interested in because I think it's something that happens to a lot of entrepreneurs. And I just want to take you back. Like, in college, you start this Spartan entertainment.

Starting point is 00:02:37 You're building this big community. You know, so far as I think I saw that you're nicknamed the mayor and all this kind of stuff, which is awesome. So very entrepreneurial. And then your first job, of college is actually kind of going back into the corporate world, right? Like a trader for large finance. I'm interested in because I see this a lot in entrepreneurs journeys where early in life or college, they have this pull to build their own business. And it's almost like we have to try

Starting point is 00:03:04 the other side. Like was there was it like a feeling like you needed to try corporate life or like why not roll your kind of entrepreneur spirit right into an entrepreneurial endeavor right out of college. Yeah, that's a great question. Happy you asked that, you know, one thing I know a lot of you that are listening, you know, probably can empathize with, you know, the entrepreneur that was, you know, finding every excuse to be entrepreneurial, uh, even before college was over or while it was going on. I can't tell you how many successful founders I know that were running the nightlife at their school. And, you know, I think it is a very similar skill set. But in my particular case, I had built the moat of my business in college, which had gotten really big.

Starting point is 00:03:47 And there's a little background. So Spartan Entertainment was a company I started with my co-founder, Zach Marinas, who's now running a really successful software company in the Triangle in North Carolina called Teamworks. The two of us started this business where we used Facebook in the OG days. This is still one you needed a dot edu email address to even get on Facebook to eventually aggregate a group of 17,000 college. students at Duke, North Carolina, NC State, Elon, and the surrounding communities. Yeah, this became like the dominant force and nightlife in that area in that generation. By my senior year, we were throwing 17 recurring events a week.

Starting point is 00:04:28 You know, I'm getting paid cash every single time somebody's coming in the door. It was a great business, but what ended up happening was right at that point, because that was the first, like, grade that had Facebook all through college, eventually once people started graduating they needed to get rid of the dot edu limitation so they ended up opening it up and then suddenly the bar owners and the venue owners like anybody could kind of create facebook events it didn't just have to be college students so we kind of lost our edge if that makes sense that said the network that we built was you know was pretty enduring in fact the signature party that we started wednesday night beer pong at shooters still goes on today and i'm about to have my 15th year

Starting point is 00:05:08 reunion. So this thing's going about almost 20 years strong now, you know, which is, which is pretty funny. But, you know, really to answer your question, like, I think you also have to go back to that time period. I graduated in 2010, which was right in the middle of the financial crisis. So, you know, you could imagine that, you know, maybe if I'd graduate three years earlier or three years later, you know, you're, you know, sophomore year, junior year, you're intern and on Wall Street or at a consulting firm and then you're going to go work there. And, you know, there was this whole cohort of people that were walking around Duke at that time that like maybe otherwise would have been at a gold man or maybe otherwise would have been in a McKinsey that ended up starting

Starting point is 00:05:46 companies like Coinbase and Plaid and Air Table. You know, these are guys that were like all the same age, you know, as me in that cohort from Duke in that era was pretty incredible about the talent and founders that came out of it. But, you know, one thing that like I feel really confident about is like the time that I spent, you know, both trade. and at LinkedIn were things that really did shape me professionally. Now, I think at both cases, I probably, especially trading, if I've done two years of it versus, you know, five years of it, you know, I would have been better off.

Starting point is 00:06:20 But at the same time, like, I don't have regrets because I learned a lot. I made a lot of the connections that ended up, you know, being those that were my early investors or early employees of the company. So I don't have any regrets, but, you know, I do tell people that I always do I was going to start a company. It just took me like nine years to find my, like, like a really good idea. Yeah. I actually, you know, when I'm talking to younger people or, you know, whatever, come up. And whenever you have a public platform like this, people seem to

Starting point is 00:06:49 assume that you like have all these answers and, you know, sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. But, you know, so I'll get questions asked and stuff. And I'll tell them like, look, like, I think for some people and probably my guess would be the majority of people, actually taking that time, if you, if you have an entrepreneur, or bent or that is ultimately your goal, taking that time to go into the corporate world in some capacity and getting a feel for that side of business, because there are a lot of really good lessons

Starting point is 00:07:19 that you can learn. And also, you can learn a lot of things that you don't like, right? And I find that my most successful entrepreneurial endeavor was actually the result of building, I'm not gonna say solely, but building against aspects of the business that I didn't like or I disagreed with,

Starting point is 00:07:37 and then building all, off of those, and I wouldn't have had that if I hadn't spent, you know, about a decade in my life in different kind of corporate endeavors. Does that play with you? Does that sound right? And maybe what should someone be considering if they have a similar entrepreneurial bent that you have when they're coming out, like, how do you make that decision? Should I just press into more entrepreneur or whatever?

Starting point is 00:07:59 We'll start from the top on this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a deep believer that entrepreneurs are born, not made. I think you can become more entrepreneurial by being, you know, hanging, working at startups or being around other entrepreneurs. But, you know, most entrepreneurs that I know, like they, you know, they were entrepreneurs in kindergarten. Like it was like they, you know, they were the ones with the lemonade stand or they were, you know, flipping baseball cards or like, whatever the fuck it was. Yeah. Pogs.

Starting point is 00:08:27 Oh my God. Like I just, I just see that over and over and over again. And, you know, in fact, there's a personality. test we used to make everybody taking the OG days a cameo. It's called 16 personalities.com. And only 3% of the human of the population has what's called the entrepreneurial archetype. And, you know, this is someone that's like forward looking. It's someone that's not deterred by failure. They're resilient. And those are just skills that are like absolutely needed 100%. Now, one thing that I'll tell you is that entrepreneurs can be fostered by being around other

Starting point is 00:09:03 entrepreneurs. And one thing that we've done, and I take a lot of credit and I take a lot of pride in, is we have always, like, openly wanted to hire, like, future founders, like, people that know they want to be an entrepreneur. They, like, want to get their feet wet. And I think there's probably over 10 people that have left Cameo over the years to become, you know, venture-backed CEOs, including two that became unicorns, right, which is, which is something, you know, I like, I'm a college sports fan. I love thinking about, like, coaching trees and, and, you know, like the CEO tree and the alumni tree of Cameo has really spawned some incredible founders that have come through and, you know, trying to do things from pet insurance to NFTs to, you know,

Starting point is 00:09:47 marketplace for art or, you know, different things in the creator economy. So like we've kind of run the gamut. But, you know, I think, I think that's, I think that's super important. And then the last thing that I'll mention is that if you are an entrepreneur and you know eventually you're going to start a company, but I really would say this is true for like anybody in any job. It's critically important to find the thing that's your I ki guy. This is a Japanese philosophy that I really love. For those of you not familiar, imagine a Venn diagram with four circles instead of two. And basically, you're trying to find the intersection of what are you great at? What do you love to do? What is the world need? And what can you get paid for? And if you find the intersection of those four things,

Starting point is 00:10:29 you kind of get what I call like the Iron Man Heart, right? It's like that point. It's like that perpetual motion machine. It keeps you going through the good times, through the bad times. You know, you could have the best ride up ever, but that doesn't mean the, you know, the come down is going to be anything but rocky. But like, you know, 99.9% entrepreneurs go through major, major adversity at some period. And, you know, sometimes the sector that you're in is the hottest thing in the world. And then other times, you know, nobody wants touch you with the 10-foot pole, especially on the venture side. So ultimately, the way that I've always looked at it is if you find the thing that is your Iki guy point, it allows you to keep going on regardless of what's

Starting point is 00:11:07 going on around you. And then the last thing that I think is really important. And this is, you know, when you asked me the first question, Ryan, like, do I regret, you know, being in, in the professional world versus being an entrepreneur? As long as you're learning, you don't regret it, right? But the big thing is, like, I see too often and I've been guilty of this myself. Like I mentioned, hey, maybe if I just did two years of trading, I kind of got what I needed out of that. And I would have been ready for the next thing, but I stayed for five, right? And ultimately, I think that's so important, whether you're in a role and thinking about a promotion or at a company, should I stay, should I leave. Are you learning? Are you growing? And if you're not, you should find something else.

Starting point is 00:11:49 Yeah, I completely agree with that. I also think one, just to build on top of that idea, even if you're at a job that's not, you're dream job or maybe you aren't necessarily, you know, it's not your Ike guy. I think oftentimes we then down throttle how much effort we put into it, right? We're like, oh, well, I'm, you know, an administrator in this company and it's not what I want to do. I want to be over here. And then they, then we spend half our day memorizing baseball stats because we can do our job in the first hour, right? I mean, that was like my career at American Express. And, you know, so it's like, I'll ask really ask people, you know, yeah, I get it. Like, you don't love that. You don't love this thing, no doubt. But like, are you giving 100% to it to even see, like, what you're capable of?

Starting point is 00:12:33 And I think a lot of times we get into these positions. And if it's not what we see ourselves doing for 10 years, we downshift and coast. And that just kills all our momentum. Totally. And that's really what the whole premise of the Yiki guy, you know, framework means to say. Like, if you found that thing, then you are going to put the time and the effort because you love it, you're great at it. You know, you're inspired by it. Like, all those things. Like, you can get, You can make money doing it, right? That's, it's so important. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:13:00 Now, do you think, I want to go back and double click on this idea of you having, you know, multiple successful startup founders coming out of your culture. And I saw that you have six core values. I'm going to read all of them, but there's three I would love for you to kind of expand upon. But I'm going to read all six for the audience quick here. Number one, roll out the red carpet. Two, act like an owner. Three challenge assumptions.

Starting point is 00:13:23 Four, embrace innovation. five, fight for simplicity, and six, make it memorable. The three, I would love for you to maybe expand upon in whatever way you see works, because I think they're topics that to me are kind of a little different, and I think very interesting are one, roll out the red carpet, two, act like an owner, and three, fight for simplicity. Those three ideas immediately caught me as differentiators from what I've seen in other kind of corporate core values.

Starting point is 00:13:50 Well, I will tell you that those are the three that have stood the test of time. The other core values have been altered at different points, but those three along with run through walls, which is no longer a core value, but still like very much an ethos of Cameo, are really the pillars upon which we built the company. So the thing that's kind of cool, I mentioned there were like four kind of OG core values at Cameo. We have six now, but each one of the founders, and then Arthur Leopold, who was our first employee founding COO, each one of us had kind of a value that, that we brought to the table, that became the bedrock and foundation of our culture. So starting with, you know, fight for simplicity, starting with roll out the red carpet,

Starting point is 00:14:34 that was the one that came from me. Like the whole idea with roll out the red carpet is any single person that interacts with our brand, whether they're trying to interview for a job or they're a talent on the platform or a customer, like the way that they should feel after interacting with Cameo is like they were just escorted down the red carpet at the Oscars

Starting point is 00:14:53 And like, they're the star of the show. And, you know, the red velvet rope is there and everyone they want to meet behind it. And, like, we're lifting that red velvet rope up and introducing them to everyone they ever wanted to meet. Like, that is us to a T. And, you know, when we think about that from an employee, employee perspective, you know, we always talk about, like, your first day of cameo should be the best day of work you've ever had in your life. And then your second day should be better than the first. And like, that's such an ingrained part of our ethos. And when we think about things like roll up, like the return to office policy that we just did,

Starting point is 00:15:26 you know, we're giving a $10,000 raise to all of our Chicago land employees to come do that. We lived up to our value of roll out the red carpet there, right? Like, I don't know of another company on the planet that's doing that. I totally think that people were asking more out of them if they have to come in and their peers don't. So like, why should we not compensate them for that and do that in a really generous way? So roll out the red carpet, number one. Number two, act like an owner is actually one that was a LinkedIn value. I worked at LinkedIn right before, so did Arthur.

Starting point is 00:15:59 And this was one that we stole, but we really liked. You know, it's this idea that like every single person, like you mentioned earlier, you know, being in that role, but you don't really love it. So like, you know, you're remembering baseball cards. Like, if you act like an owner, like you're the CEO. If you're the janitor or you're the CEO of the company, like you're going to act like a CEO for your role. And we really believe in that. And, you know, part of putting our money where our mouth is, like every single employee at the company has options in the company. So like literally they are an owner.

Starting point is 00:16:32 I've always felt that that was really important. And on top of that, it's just this whole idea of like, you know, like for the owner, the job's never done. Right. So it's like, you know, you're never just going to go say this is good enough. Like you should really own your work and feel like you're like you're like you're, you're, your name the, you know, Stephen Glanis and the Ryan Hanley, like, you know, money back guarantee is like stamped onto the work that you're doing. Fight for Simplicity is a really interesting one.

Starting point is 00:17:00 That came from Devin, our co-founder. Devin ran product and engineering for most of Camus History. Today, he kind of oversees like all creative and runs design. And the idea with Fight for Simplicity is to build something like globally scalable, it is so hard to do that if you have like all the, complexity, like different buttons, different skews, et cetera. So what we're always trying to do is like, you know, how do we delete, how do we streamline, how do we make this as easy as possible?

Starting point is 00:17:29 Because if you make it as easy as possible, it actually allows it to scale. And, you know, fighting for simplicity often means, like, you know, very difficult tradeoffs, but, you know, cutting it all the way down. And that's something that I think that, you know, we're pretty proud of as far as, like, the core product that we built, like, what the whole universe of things we could have done was, but, like, focusing for, you know, we're nine years in to, like, this per size video product. How do you, do you have a framework or maybe just, maybe just a, maybe expand on the philosophy a little more? Because I think a lot of people struggle with this.

Starting point is 00:18:06 I think they struggle with it with all their work. Creators struggle with this. Entrepreneurs struggle with this. I think we all want to add in features or, like, like, you know, complexity into the product as, as a show of value. And it is a very difficult, I think, conversation oftentimes to stay focused on this idea of simplicity. So, like, how do you cultivate that inside the company and really stay on target? Well, of course, we want good ideas coming to get surfaced, right? And, you know, it was funny.

Starting point is 00:18:34 I was in a product review yesterday for this product called broadcast DMs that we're rolling out. And one of the ideas that we had, so, you know, imagine an algorithmic list social feed. So basically if you follow anyone that follows you on Cameo Ryan, like you could send them a mass message that appears in a one-to-one DM thread and start having like a personal conversation with them. So we're really excited about that. One of the killer features we're thinking about is the ability for the talent to actually own not rent their audience. So right now like you're following on Instagram, you're following on Facebook, you're following on Twitch or YouTube. Like the platforms own your followers. You just kind of rent them.

Starting point is 00:19:13 But like what if like we actually gave you like radical ownership and you could take anyone that followed you and export You know export their you know their their email or their phone number their birthday to a CSV and like use that in whatever Direct to Fan Rails you you think is best to go cultivate your network So we're talking about this yesterday and you know we were really thinking about okay if we were to do this like what are the critical things of information like you want the name you want the email you want the phone number you want those zip code, you want their birthday, but like, like, do you really need email and phone number? Like, so it's just constantly because every time there's another field, you're going to have drop off.

Starting point is 00:19:54 So, you know, we ended up getting to a really elegant solution where, you know, three of those six things that we said were critical are like what we decided to move with in an MVP. And then later you can always add, add more information on or complete your profile in a deeper way. Have you had any, that's not the right way to ask the question. This idea of radical ownership of your audience is so much different than most platforms, as you just described. Like, why are you willing to do that when your peer kind of social platforms are unwilling to do that? What is the thought there?

Starting point is 00:20:30 And are you, you know, what would be the concern of other platforms not to do this? Well, number one, the business model. Our business model is really different from TikTok and Instagram and Snapchat. We do not have an ad-based revenue model. for those platforms, they monetize on DAUs, MAUs, and basically selling their user data. The talent or the creators make the content for free, and then they sell ads against it, you know, to advertisers. So they are always going to be an advertiser-centric model, and the talent are, the deal

Starting point is 00:21:04 they basically make with the talent is, hey, use our platform, you're going to get famous, but then we're going to sell, you know, and if you get really famous, you can make money doing other shit. Like that's basically how it works is the the red share that comes from any like any of that on TikTok or YouTube. It's it does not you cannot support yourself unless you are like the biggest person in the world on the platform. So that's kind of the so then what happens. Like you sell merch, you go on cameo, you know, have a subscription on Patreon or only fans. Like that's how you monetize.

Starting point is 00:21:34 For us, the talent are the Fort Knox, right? Like our business model has always been talent centric. Like the talent make more money that we do for everything. So for us, if we can provide the best tools in the world, the best rails in the world for talent to directly monetize their fan base and nurture it and cultivate it and strengthen it, then like I think we win in the long term. But it's impossible to go from, you know, a TikTok or YouTube business model where, you know, they have 100% gross margins basically on this ad product and they don't have to give anything to the talent or they give almost nothing versus our model where the town are making 75% to begin with. Yeah. Yeah, I get that. It's, and it's also, it's, it's such a direct relationship as well and so personal. I mean, that, that to me, it definitely changes that aspect of it. And, you know, I guess I want to, I want to pivot into, and maybe this is the right time, this is the wrong time, but I'm, I'm so intrigued by the Brett Favre story. And none is, you know, you can do any kind of just preamble into, into how it happened. I'm not so interested in the, in the how. I'm interested in your mind. mindset and philosophy to actually execute and to go see him and then you know

Starting point is 00:22:49 to tell that story for us because I you know the thing that happened whatever the controversy that's less interesting to me but probably important but to then go and do what you did I was like this is the kind of guy that if I did want to work for somebody this is the kind of thing that I would want to see out of the person that I work for so I I love that story well thank you I appreciate that let's take it all the way back this is the December 2018. We're right in the middle of Christmas season, which is our busiest time of the year. I think literally this was like Thanksgiving weekend. Brett Farve had joined Cameo earlier that year. And at this point, it's the biggest person on the

Starting point is 00:23:28 platform, you know, like an American legend and like Hall Famer. And, you know, just getting a bread on had really started to be a halo for us to get, you know, Snoop Dog and other, like, you know, that kind of level talent onto the platform. So that, We were really just hitting kind of this big tipping point at that point. We had closed her Series A, you know, maybe six months before. And all of a sudden we get a, actually, I think we closed the Series A like six weeks before this happened. And all of a sudden, I get a frantic text message from this guy named Sean Finnegan, who was extremely important to us in building this business.

Starting point is 00:24:05 And Sean was working with Brad on a lot of social stuff. And he goes, Stephen, we got a problem. And I go, what happened? Some fault alt-right group had tricked Brett Favre into making a dog whistle anti-Semitic video where basically the script said something like he was talking about, you know, the shoutout goes to the families of the USS Liberty, which was this ship that Israel bombed of the U.S. in like 1970s. It's like a very like esoteric reference in history.

Starting point is 00:24:36 And Brett just thought he was doing the shoutout for, you know, basically for, he thought he was doing a shoutout for veterans. And then this group took that and put it on 4chan and they'd made a bunch of little dog whistle references that I wouldn't have caught or I don't think anybody reasonably would have caught. And suddenly, you know, they were making it look like Brett was, you know, advocating for these, you know, like these proud boy like groups, like these alt-right kind of neo-Nazi type groups. And this became like a massive, massive story. And, you know, first things first, we always want to make sure our talent's safe. As I mentioned, like the talent are our Fort Knox. Without the talent, we can't do what we do.

Starting point is 00:25:14 We can't manufacture happiness. So the biggest fear at that point was, holy shit, if, like, Brett loses his wrangler jeans ad or, you know, and he leaves the platform and he never comes back, that will put a cap on whoever could go and join cameo because suddenly he becomes the cautionary tale. And every single agent's going to be like, yeah, not worth it. I don't care how much you make.

Starting point is 00:25:39 You just threw everything else. away. So this is really existential at the time. And so what we immediately do is we kind of let our talent base know that this happened. Like we were super transparent. We immediately built this kind of like early AI bot on Slack that would basically, you know, we went to the southern poverty law center and got this list of all these like hate words and different hate groups. And then it would it would basically flag. We called it Nazi bot at the time. It would basically flag anything and then let our talent team know, hey, there's something fishy about this request or this reference. And then what we did was, you know, I needed to make sure Brett stayed and he felt safe.

Starting point is 00:26:21 And I had heard that the 96 Packers, the Super Bowl champions were having like a reunion. Maybe it was 97. They were having a reunion up in Milwaukee, like signing autographs and everything. So like me and my chief of staff at the time, Adam Ostrom, we drove up in a huge snowstorm from Wisconsin from Chicago to Milwaukee. We waited in this big ass line. There were hundreds and hundreds of people there and we got to the front line and you know, hey, I'm Stephen from Cameo, Adam from Camio. We talked to Brett. We told him how much we appreciated, you know, him and we were there for him. And you know what? And by the way, we were, I didn't want to have that conversation like that, you know, but you know what he said to me? Look me to strain the eye. He goes, Stephen, wasn't my best day,

Starting point is 00:27:04 but it wasn't my worst day. I love how Cameo makes people feel and, you know, just thank you for being there and stepping up. And honestly, that's one of those little moments that kind of saved the company at the time. And what we didn't realize was, even though that was as bad of a press cycle as you can kind of get, a lot of people found out about cameo from that. And, you know, instead of the platform dying, like we had the biggest month we ever had, and that really started, you know, just accelerating the flywheel of our business. And the rocket ship really started igniting at that point. Was there anyone inside the organization that didn't think making that trip, getting in front of Brett?

Starting point is 00:27:43 Like, was there any pushback or was everyone kind of like, this is our Hail Mary pass? Let's go. I mentioned like run through walls was that value that's not there, but like that's just how we built this business. Right. Like cameo was built by very gritty people building the business brick by brick. And, you know, when some insurmountable obstacle came, you know, in our way, we busted through it. And that's something that, you know, it's really, even as we're rebuilding our culture right now, like, that's the thing that, you know, and by the way, that run through walls. Like, what is that?

Starting point is 00:28:15 I mentioned we hired a lot of entrepreneurs at this company, right? And like, what are entrepreneurs? They're run through all type of people. So that's not the only crisis. I'm sure you've had many minis, but fast forward, you know, COVID hits. You guys just absolutely go bananas. it becomes this way to communicate and deliver messages. It's also right.

Starting point is 00:28:38 I mean, I remember this time, and, you know, there's cameos everywhere, and it's just, it's become a cultural icon to a certain extent. And then there's a downturn. And, you know, just reading through all of my material and doing research and digging into the story, so incredibly impressed with the decision to kind of, knowing that you had to down throttle and how painful it would be, I would love for you to talk us through that time because you've come out the other end now, this being a second major crisis, you know, come out the other end in a very good place. And this is another moment where just like with the Breft-Farve incident, I think people who don't have their head on their shoulders or maybe don't have the values that you guys have, they fall apart. And you didn't.

Starting point is 00:29:26 And I'd love you to take us through that time and kind of how you led your company through. through that period. Yeah, it was a really, really difficult, tough time. But, you know, let's start even going into COVID because I think it's a really important part of the story. So coming into COVID, I mentioned, like, this Brett Farr thing happened. And, you know, when you look at the first four years of our business, like, we became a unicorn on the exact four-year anniversary of launching, right?

Starting point is 00:29:53 And that was at a time where, like, there were no, like, AI, you know, unicorns popping up pre-revenue, like our business went from 300,000 to 4 million to 20 million to 100 in its first four years, right? And this is just like the classic, you know, rocket ship. And, you know, for us, one of the things that happened and, you know, we got called a COVID darling a lot, but people don't really know that in 2018 and 2019, we were the fastest growing consumer marketplace in the world at that time, too. So coming into COVID, we had this huge momentum. We had just raised our Series B from Kleiner Perkins and Churning Group and a lot of like incredible investors that that joined the cap table and like this thing was like ready to launch. When COVID hit

Starting point is 00:30:39 initially we didn't know how that was going to deal with our business right the whole world shuts down and in fact the first week of COVID the first week of lockdowns our business went down by 50% and we had an emergency board meeting that Sunday night about hey like what like were we going to need to do layoffs like what were we going to need to do? We didn't know how long this was going to go on. So like I remember me and the founders, we cut our salaries to zero. We got rid of like a lot of these benefits that we had. Like you could Uber to work back in the day or like gym membership or like, well, if everything shut down, like we're not going to need any of those things. So we just basically did everything we could to avoid laying people off and

Starting point is 00:31:16 took some costs out of the business. And then basically the next week like it rebounded and then it just shot out like Canon. And you know, in 2020, we grew about 500% in revenue. Right. So suddenly, you know, this thing is like full speed ahead. And as I like to describe it to people, that period of time was like playing the game Mario Kart when you hit the star. And you could kind of go 10 times faster and you can bump into shit and you just keep going. And it, but it, and then at some point, like that star just kind of fades off. And for us, that was when the second vaccine came out, right? And if you think about like why our business accelerated during COVID so much, you know, you mentioned that this was becoming a new way to

Starting point is 00:31:57 communicate, like your mom, you know, is living across the country, so you couldn't see her for Mother's Day. Like, you sent her a Kenny G to, you know, tell her how much, you know, you loved her and wish her Happy Mother's Day. So you're literally sending digital love. And you think about the missed weddings and birthday parties and like life events that happened. And like a cameo was such a great way to do it. But on the, on the supply side, for the first time in history, every athlete, actor, celebrity in the world was out of work. And none of them, even those that are like, if you're a pro, if you're an MLB player, you're an NBA player, you have an annual salary, but you get paid per game. So guess what? When the games weren't happening, they

Starting point is 00:32:34 weren't getting paid. So this was a massive supply side tailwind for us. And, you know, there was more availability. They were busy. And it just kept, people were on their phones and at home. And it just, it was just the perfect storm, you know, for our business. Our leadership team knew that at some point that was going to end. But at the same time, like, we just raised $100 million, And now we are, you know, we're building up to try to future proof the business and ultimately take it public. If you remember that period of time, this is SPACs. This is direct listings. You know, coming into 2020, Camio was named the most promising consumer internet company in the world by the information, you know, and we are like, we are just like humming on all cylinders.

Starting point is 00:33:17 We hire a public company ready management team. We, you know, hire kind of the best of the best. The team goes from 100 people who are all in person in Chicago and L.A. To about 400 people that are fully distributed across 38 states and 13 countries. Right. And, you know, we're building international out. We're starting new business lines. We're doing all these things to try to diversify our base. And then all of a sudden the second vaccine comes out. Like when people got their second shot and organic traffic to our site ended up dropping by 65%.

Starting point is 00:33:51 So the core business, which was never built on paid marketing, was always built on virality and talent promoting and customer sharing. Like just 65% less people came into our store and OPEX had three X. Right. So suddenly, you know, we went from being profitable, break-even business to burning $6 million a month. And it happened in like under 90 days. So when that happened, all of a sudden our leadership team was like, we have to take costs out of the business. It was a falling knife. We didn't know how far it was going to go.

Starting point is 00:34:25 And over the next 18 months, which were probably the worst 18 months of my life, you know, we had to tear the company down to the studs. And, you know, we went from over, you know, 350 all the way down to 32 people. And, you know, when we got to that third one, this was basically like, you know, our board was talking about, hey, if we go that deep, you're a zombie company. There's no way you can grow again. You guys are dead, blah, blah, blah. But I was just like, I can't go and look at my team again if we're not profitable.

Starting point is 00:34:54 I'm like, we have to get to profitability. And, you know, happy to report that last year, you know, we were break even for the first time. And, you know, this is a company was burning over $50 million two years ago. And it just was an absolute wild ride. And some of the lessons from that, you know, my biggest regret is in the first riff. We ended up, you know, laying off 25% of the company. And we should have gone deeper. We absolutely should have gone deeper in that, you know,

Starting point is 00:35:20 know, our, you know, my naivety and like trying to save people as jobs ended up costing more jobs in the long term. And it's something that I, I deeply regret. Because if we could have done that in two swoops versus, you know, versus three, there's so many great people that aren't here anymore that I, that I wish we're here. But, you know, I'm so grateful to those that stuck it out and stuck around. And, you know, you mentioned Ryan, like that culture is what kept people here because by the way, like, when you lay off 300 people, these are awesome people. And suddenly they're at new companies and great jobs and they're calling the people that are still there. Like, hey, the water's warm over here.

Starting point is 00:35:59 Like, what the hell are you doing? I remember McKenzie, my now chief of staff came up to be one like late last year, late in that year. And she's like, Stephen, I kind of feel like it's 2 a.m. at the bar. It's closed. And like, we're the only losers left on the dance floor. Like, what's going on here? What are we trying to do? And, you know, I, and this is where, like, having a product that makes people happy every day

Starting point is 00:36:20 and having a mission and core values and teammates that they love and leaders that they're inspired by, like, that's what kept people together. How did you handle that? How did you keep your shit together during that as, you know, one of the individuals that everyone's looking at through this hard time, which people may understand logically, but there's almost no way to fully rationalize emotionally? Like, how do you, as a leader, maintain your discipline, your perseverance drive through? Those are incredibly tough times. I mean, that's just that.

Starting point is 00:36:55 Yeah, I think there's parts I handled better than others. But one big learning that I took from that is in the ride-up and the initial crash down, I was probably the most positive person on the ride-ups. Like, I was the Pied Piper. No matter how excited anybody was, I was more excited. And then when shit was going bad, like, at the beginning, like my expectations were so high that, like, my tolerance for missing plan or, like,

Starting point is 00:37:22 you know, shit not like shipping when we needed to or things not getting done, I just was so pissed off all the time, right? And I was more mad than anybody, you know. So one of the things that I've been really working on myself through coaching that I've tried to do better is to be more of the ballast of the emotional ballast of the company. So when things are very exuberant, like that's where I want to pull them back or when things are really shitty That's where I want to pull people up right? So I've been working on that a lot But you know at the end of the day like you you know you have to be putting a brave face out to your company if you know you have to have conviction and what you're doing

Starting point is 00:38:03 And and you know in that period of time I leaned on you know some amazing entrepreneurs that were part of my YPO forum and other other people that kind of have come up when I did. And, you know, we, we spent so many nights on the phone with each other, you know, talking through the issues that we were all going through at that time. And it was just, you know, I know, it's funny. My dad was, like, a long time finance leader at a, you know, multi-billion dollar company. And I remember him saying, like, man, that 18 months, you got like 30 years worth of experience of that time. Yeah. Well, that, I mean, the worst part is, I shouldn't say the worst part. My guess is, years from now, you will look back at that moment,

Starting point is 00:38:47 and it will be the success that you have coming in the future will have only been possible because of the maturation process, that accelerated maturation process of that, both of those two incredibly hard situations, right, which were both different. One's a PR issue, one's an internal operations issue, and sales issue, you know, revenue and just business. I mean, those types of experiences, I think,

Starting point is 00:39:11 you almost have to have them to a certain extent. You don't want them to happen. You don't wish for them to happen. But I look at some of the worst moments of my career, whether inflicted by a decision that I made that wasn't right or just something that happened that I had to address. And those are the, like, it's funny. Like when you talk to people, those are the things you talk about.

Starting point is 00:39:32 Not like, oh, yeah, we hit this goal or we made this tweet to the product and this happened. You tell the stories about how you overcame these things because it's ultimately what shapes you. Yeah, I think that's a great point. And, you know, one thing I was really worried about culturally, like, as we went from 100 to 400 and 12 months, it had been such a winning team that had literally had, you know, like we had, you know, we had the Brett Farv issue. We, you know, of course, in any business, you've got your little minor lumps, but like, in many ways, like, it kind of, Camio just kind of worked from the beginning, right? We had, we found product market fit right away.

Starting point is 00:40:08 the first thing we ever sold ended up being like the thing that we did you know had the name had the space like just it kind of was this company that had everything and when we started hiring people in that pre-IPO level that were leaving public companies to come work for the next one that was going to be public like we had you know the resumes of people we were hiring were way better they went to better schools you know they had you know they had you know better resumes and we started hiring for like resumes and experience over kind of what got us there, which was giving like really smart young people with no, that had no business, like having the responsibility, giving them the shot to be great. And that was one of the periods where I really felt like organizationally,

Starting point is 00:40:54 my spidey sense at the time was like, I don't know how much resilience or grit this, you know, this group of people have. Right. And obviously, you know, as layoffs started, you know, like we really found, you know, we really found at that point, like, those that remain the 32 that, like, cut down all the way from the mid-300s, like, those people, like, they've been through health with us, right? And that's why, you know, when it came to the return to office, I'm like, of course I'm going to roll out the red carpet for these people. I know we need to be in the office, but I love these people. I want every one of them to be here for 10 years. And, you know, part of the reason I want the people back in the office is because this group of people,

Starting point is 00:41:35 creates magic when they're together, right? So I don't want to do anything to force somebody to get another job. Like these are people that, you know, when push came to shove, like every single time in those spreadsheet exercises kept being on the green list versus the red list. And by the way, there's so many people on those red lists that I would kill to still have at this company, right? But like, you know, we had to do what we had to do. Yeah, I think you made a really good point about, you know, kind of cultural hiring over resume hiring. And I've also found, and I'm interested in your take on this, you know, I found often when you find someone who is talented, smart, driven, but maybe doesn't check the resume boxes, but you can tell there's real, there's potential there.

Starting point is 00:42:20 The ideas you get from those individuals tend to be, there's real upside because they're not thinking, like, they haven't spent enough time in the box or even around the box to believe. to start to believe that you can only do things that are in the box, right? They're like, well, hey, there's this thing over here that we can take from and integrate. All of a sudden you start to see this mashup of ideas because it's almost like their inexperience actually allows them to think bigger, if that makes sense. So, right, I got a, my CEO coach, who's now my board member, Bing Gordon, kind of like legendary long-term partner, Kleiner Perkins, like founding board, like board member of Amazon for 20 plus years.

Starting point is 00:43:04 He, one time, like, we're both hockey players, and he gave me, he gave me a framework on, like, team construction that I think it was so valid. And he had basically went back and looked at all the Stanley Cup champions in the last, like, 25 years. And he found that they had a mix of three archetypes of players. And, you know, you'll see where I'm going with this when we come and talk about how that applies to the company. But basically, he's like every great Stanley Cup winning team first had. you know, kind of your, your two lines of guys, like six players who are at the peak of their career and they're going to do the best work of their life right now. Then you also have, like, a group of, you know, another six that are, you know, young, dumb, hungry, stupid, but, like,

Starting point is 00:43:50 they're playing out of their minds. They don't even understand, like, what's at stake. Like, they're rookies, their second year in, but they're just workhorses. And they're going to do the best work of their life later, but, like, they're playing out of their mind right now. And then he goes, lastly, every team needs this. you have to have the grizzled old vet that still has the blue burning flame that wants to lift the cup one more time. Maybe they've had a Hall Fame career and they never won the championship and like they become the people that rally around this. And you know, at Camille, we've had a really good mix of those types. But that's a framework and archetype I like for team building that at least resonated with me.

Starting point is 00:44:27 Yeah. And then your job becomes, and I'm going to position this in a question form, your job becomes, managing those per not managing is the right word creating an environment for those personalities to mix so that they can we can you can pull from their respective viewpoints and everyone feels heard understood and access to all those ideas is that is that kind of the idea now you become kind of of of service of those groups to make sure that they mix in the proper way that's how they draw it up but in retrospect like that's probably the the single thing that I fucked up

Starting point is 00:45:04 got wrong most in the buildup, especially in the heyday. So when we were building this executive team, like we're, you know, we're preparing to be a public company at some point in the next two to three years. And we went and hired like kind of the best of the best, you know, our, our head of product was one of the top product leaders at Uber, you know, our CMO led him's and hers, which was like the, you know, kind of hottest brand out there. Yeah. At that point, our COO was the global head of ops at LinkedIn.

Starting point is 00:45:34 our chief people officer was the global head of people at McDonald's. Like, you know, our CFO was the CFO that everybody, everybody thought she was going to be the next great one to take somebody public. So we built this like all-star team. But the problem was, and I remember at the time my, one of my board members told me something. She's like, Stephen, you've been Michael Jordan this whole time, but now it's time to be Phil Jackson. You know, like the last dance had come out. And really like, what she was asking was like, you need to now be the person that just brings all these people together. And I don't know if it's because it was remote.

Starting point is 00:46:13 I don't know if it's because I brought in six senior executives like all at the same time. And everybody's kind of fighting to be number two. But like the sum of the parts, the whole was worse than the sum of the parts. Like that group of people I could not and this was my failure and it cost, you know, it costs the company time. It costs the company money. it costs a lot of people their jobs and this was my failure, I couldn't bring that group together to make that a cohesive, you know, high functioning, high trust management team.

Starting point is 00:46:45 And that is the regret that I have from that period of time. So and as we've torn the company down, I realized that like the consensus-based management or trying to get everybody on the same page, like that's not, I just had to step up more and be like, this is the direction we're going, like figure it the fuck out, right? So I actually needed to become Michael Jordan again and not be Phil Jackson. So I think the, I think like a lot of the management books will tell you it's all about being the maestro and create the culture. But like, you know,

Starting point is 00:47:16 as a CEO at the end of the day, like, hey, I ran the company, you know, we is founders, we controlled the board. You can't really look at anybody else on the bad things, you know, at the end of the day. Like that, that starts and ends with us with me and my co-founders. And ultimately, I didn't do a good enough job in that period. I think there's also a part to it that is knowing what your strengths are. You know, there are certain aspects of business having founded multiple companies now that I know like this thing that maybe in a leadership book is bullet four on the leadership list. I'm just never going to be good at that thing, right?

Starting point is 00:47:54 It's just never going to happen that I'm going to be that guy. Like I'm East Coast. I grew up in the woods. you know, like gun-toting crazy parents. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just a straight shooter, and I get told by any, every time I'm in a company, you know, I like the HR stuff,

Starting point is 00:48:11 I just have to back up. They're like, you're too straightforward. They're like, you can't say those things to people. They like won't hear it. So like, I've always, I now like know that. But man, figuring that stuff out is just so important. Well, let me, I think that's a really important point. I also think that that period of time was a very weird period, right?

Starting point is 00:48:29 you had the great resignation. You had all these startups have, you know, Series A companies had more money than Series C companies. You had, like, just there was so much craziness going around, quiet quitting, you know, people wanting to, you know, only be remote or only be in office. Like, it just, it was just chaos. And then you had, you know, employee activism and wokeism to the point where, like, as a leader, you're trying to foster a culture that's inclusive for everybody, you know, we're trying to build diverse teams. We're trying to build, you know, have different leaders with different perspectives there. But at the end of the day, like, I don't know, the captaining sports teams my whole life and having other businesses, aligned to teams have always been the ones that have won, right? It hasn't been the dream teams.

Starting point is 00:49:13 It's been the ones that are aligned that have shared core values. And that doesn't mean I don't care about diversity. And it doesn't mean that I don't like bringing in different perspectives. But it means that at the end of the day, like, everybody's got to be pulling on the same rope. Yeah. Steven, I could talk to you for another three hours about business. This has been absolutely incredible. I want to be respectful of your time.

Starting point is 00:49:35 You know, cameo is an enormous platform. I don't think we need to do a shout out of where people can find more of you. But are you creating, I'll just ask, are you creating any content or do you personally have a newsletter? Do you do anything like that that you'd like people to go chase your ideas? Because I think the way you approach brilliant or approach business is brilliant. And if you're sharing that anywhere, I'd love for the audience to be able to follow along with that. Well, stay tuned. This is a plug for the soon to be launched, Zykegeist podcast. I'm going to be interviewing the top founders and marketers in the world that have shaped

Starting point is 00:50:09 pop culture and hear the story behind the brands that are influencing like pop culture. So I think it's going to be a lot of fun. We've got a really killer season one lineup. But look out for that probably in the next three months. We'll get the first episode out. Tremendous. And I'll get with your team. And when that comes live, I'll make sure we get it out to the audience here so that we can get people pushed over to the podcast. So just again, man, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate the hell out of you. Thanks, Ryan. Appreciate it. Thanks, bud. You'll be good.

Finding Peak w/ Ryan Hanley - How I Built a $1B Business – Cameo CEO Steven Galanis

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