Finding Peak w/ Ryan Hanley - Jay Mueller

Episode Date: November 17, 2020

Spartan philosophy, built in the black-ops lab of business: https://www.findingpeak.comFinding Peak podcast: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanleyJay Mueller, agency principal at Camargo Insurance, breaks down his power move in 2018 to take control of the future of his agency and build the business he wants to work in. This is an episode you don't want to miss... Get more: https://ryanhanley.com/--Recommended Tools for GrowthOpusClip: #1 AI video clipping and editing tool: https://link.ryanhanley.com/opusRiverside: HD Podcast & Video Software | Free Recording & Editing: https://link.ryanhanley.com/riversideWhisperFlow: Never waste time typing on your keyboard again: https://link.ryanhanley.com/whisperflowCaptionsApp: One app for all your social media video creation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/captionsappGoHighLevel: It's time to take your business workflow to the Next Level: https://link.ryanhanley.com/gohighlevelPerspective.co: The #1 funnel builder for lead generation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/perspective--Episodes You Might Enjoy:From $2 Million Loss to World-Class Entrepreneur: https://lnk.to/delkFrom One Man Shop to $200M in Revenue: https://lnk.to/tommymelloIs Psilocybin the Gateway to Self-Mastery? https://lnk.to/80upZ9This show is part of the Unplugged Studios Network — the infrastructure layer for serious creators. 👉 Learn more at https://unpluggedstudios.fm.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today we have a tremendous episode for you with the owner of Camargo Insurance, Jay Muller, someone who have gotten to know over the last few months and we had a chance to talk on the phone and just I heard his story and what he has going on and some of the decisions he's made in his agency and how he kind of is just another tremendous example of someone using an independent insurance agency to build the lifestyle, the work style, to build the build a the exact business that they want in their life that supports both the meaningfulness of the work and the lifestyle that they ultimately want. And I think Jay's a great guy. I love what he's doing.

And he is putting in place some of the building blocks for what is going to be an absolutely tremendous agency. Well, Margo is a great agency already, but he's kind of doing things to set them up to go even further. And we talk a lot about that. And this is just a great all-around episode that I think you're really going to enjoy. Before we get there, I want to give a shout out to Better Agency. So Better Agency is one of the sponsors of this show. They make the show possible. And I am also a user of Better Agency.

So Better Agency is the CRM that drives Rogue Risk. We use it for all our communications, all our emails, all our texts. We keep our attachments there. We keep our notes there. You know, we trigger tasks out to other tools. I use Better Agency to trigger personalized postcards that I send out through Thanks.io. And it's all easily managed both visually and from just an agency workflow standpoint. They're adding new features almost on a weekly basis, it feels like.

And those, you know, they've added all the commercial line stuff and that's continuing to get better. So, you know, I've said this for a while about Better Agency. If you are a, if you're a personalized focused agency, there's literally no better CRM on the market and now with your most recent update and the you know just kind of what's been proposed coming in the next few updates they are rapidly becoming just an all-around universal best-class CRM for the insurance industry and it is well worth your time to get a demo and at least know what better agency can do that's better agency.io go to better agency.io get the demo do the the trial. I think it's like 14 days for a buck, you know, $1, 14 days. You get to try it out.

And some of the best, some of the best and most forward-thinking agency owners in our industry have leaned into Better Agency. And I couldn't be happier with the product myself. So, all right, go to Better Agency.com.io and let's get on to Jay Muller. There he is. What's up, man? What's going on? Dude, you look amped up. Ready to go. Yeah, I got my, I got my nine essential amino acids in me, and I just got my workout in.

There you go. I was pounding some chicken real quick. We're feeling good. That's good. That's good. You do the midday workout? Is that your routine? So, what actually happened was I have a buddy of mine who, he's actually, he's also a mortgage broker.

he sends me some business and stuff, but he's a buddy first, probably. And I told him the other day that I've been getting into boxing for, like, cardio and that kind of stuff. I added that into my workout because I just, I just hate running. Like, you know, I try to mix in like three to five miles when I can, but like I just hate it. Like, it's just not fun. Like, I get done with it and I'm just like, oh, I ran, you know, whatever.

So about two months ago, I saw. started researching boxing, I'm not really looking to punch anybody, nor do I really want to be punched at 40 years old. But certainly the workout. And I've kind of really started to get into it. So he used to be a boxer or, you know, did some amateur boxing. And so he's got like a whole gym in his basement. So I went over this morning and we did like a cool kind of circuit workout. And then, and then, you know, as much as I probably should have been cold calling, I did a bunch of like errands that I had to run for like the family so the rest of the day. Life does happen and things have to happen.

So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And because I'm the work from home, uh, spouse, I get tasked often with like, hey, can we stop at the store and pick this up? And if you're driving by this store, pick this up. So I just got all that crap out of the way. Well, that's good.

Those, those, those, I got way, I got so far away from my workout routine over the last, I don't know, six months or something. And I get in cycles in and out of it where I'm very diligent about it. And for me, the morning workout is the best one because that gets the blood flowing, gets my brain gone. I just, it gets me in a, like in a zone for the rest of the day. But then inevitably something will happen. And it's like, man, I know I'm not going to get to everything today or this week. So I need that hour or that 30 minutes. And no matter what time I wake up in the morning, like, I just, I wake up and I'm like, got to go into the office. But then I get away from it for a period of time, and next thing you know, I'm just,

I'm not as on point. I'm not, like, I'm not where I need to be. And I got to get back to doing the thing. So I actually, I got, I started running. And I, I am not a huge fan of running. However, I, recently, my goal has been to not work hard. As ironic as that might sound, like, I need to be consistent. Period. I don't care if I run for 10 minutes of the morning, like just move your body in the morning and do something and you're going to feel better and don't and don't get too far into it because that's what I'll do is I'll start whether it's running or lifting or whatever the heck it is. Like I start doing it. Then I just want to do it like more and then you know be better and better and better and then I build up this own pressure in my head, which is pointless because I don't plan on or need to run a barathon or run fast or lift lots of ways.

or if you need to be freaking healthy and feel good, that's really it. And just being consistent with setting the bar low with my workout routine is kind of where I feel like I need to be right now. I feel the same exact way. I get the unfortunate thing for, and I shouldn't say unfortunate because I think it's helped me in some ways. But I just, once I lock into something, I kind of obsess about it. So like if I'm like with the boxing thing, I'm now like watching YouTube videos about

throwing punches and I'm literally saying to myself I am never getting into a ring at at at you know like those days are over like I'm never I don't want anyone to punch me in the face like I have zero desire but at the same time because I'm doing and I do really like the workout and I really the mix of strength and speed and core I really like it I feel great but but yeah so I'm going like I'm like how much, what am I, why am I researching this so much? But, you know, whatever. It's all good. You know, I think that kind of obsession, you know, I definitely obsess about good things for, for business and, you know, try to obsess.

I try to obsess about positive things or productive things as well, though I guess the working out could be productive. But it's all good. It's all good. I uh the COVID definitely um I was way off of center because of the COVID you know not not COVID itself but just all the craziness and then I probably got a little too caught up into the political stuff um and uh since since um the election happened I basically said to myself I said to myself the day before the election whatever happens whoever is the president or whatever stuck, like, I'm shutting it off. I'm going to very, you know, loosely follow what's happening.

Just, just from like an interest standpoint, I'm not going to like get on Twitter and express my opinion, which I found myself doing occasionally. And unfortunately, and this is so off context, and I promise everyone who's listening, we will pull this back into why Jay's actually on the show. but I have a blue check on Twitter. And I got that because four or five years ago, a buddy of mine who was working for Twitter, working with Twitter, they were looking for, you know, quote unquote, influence.

And I hate that word. And everyone who's going to say, you know, influence, I'm not, I don't think of myself in that way. They were looking for people in other industries other than like media and celebrities to give the blue check to. They wanted people and other. They did it in financial services, real estate, they did it, all these different industries.

And they just happened to, you know, he reached out to me and he said, hey, do you want this? If you, you know what I mean, it's, it does come with baggage, was what he said. And it does, because you have that blue check, people respond more to some of the things that you write. And I am right leaning, I could say, which is, awful because on many, many issues, I'm also very left.

You know, I'm, I'm more of a human than these machines that operate these talking heads on both sides. But, but, yeah, I mean, in general, I tend to be of a more, you know, whatever. I'm more of a capitalist, I guess it's probably than anything. It doesn't matter. So, um, there's the whole social and fiscal thing. And that for whatever reason, they get grouped together into 100%. 100% and that is the biggest shame I think of the whole thing is you have people and this is actually how it got started was I wrote a tweet that said I love I I I hate racism and bigotry but I also hate socialism and I really hate that I can't hate both of those things at the same time that was the tweet right because because essentially what had been preached and again if you're listening

you're probably going to hate me if your views are different after this. But this was the thought process was I, you know. You just tweeted something that like you, maybe this was the point. Now everybody gets to hate you for that statement. Yes. Yes. Now everyone hates me on both sides because people are like, ah, you're supposed to.

I thought you were a Republican. And I'm like, no, not really. I mean, I voted for Obama the first time. You know what I mean? Like I'm not really a Republican. I'm not really a Democrat. I kind of just, I really like people, but I also think people.

I also like capitalism because I've read too much about socialism and Gula. You know, I read the Gula Agarapelago and I read about Nazi Germany and some things that happen in Ethiopia and stuff. And so I understand what happens when socialism comes in. I understand what the triggers are. So I have this very clear opinion. It's not just me like, oh, capitalism, you know, like America. Like I actually have an opinion and I was stupid enough to voice that opinion. And from that day on, it like, like, oh, and I'm just, so I said stop.

and surprisingly, I'm in a much better mood every day now that I'm not involved. So. Well, I never knew anything about the blue check. So I'm, I'm, I love my LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn is fun until, you know, until you get the annoying, like now everybody wants to send me the automated message. But outside of that, LinkedIn is interesting. Like people post interesting stuff.

It's cool. I freaking hate Facebook. I never got into Twitter. I probably should to, you know, for marketing purposes, whatever. But I've just never really got into Twitter. So the blue check. I knew nothing about it.

Yeah, it basically means you're a verified account, and they've stopped. Like about two years ago, they stopped giving out blue check. So it's like a thing. And to be honest, I never, when I only tweeted, before I ever tweeted anything that had to do with politics,

when it was only just insurance, it meant nothing. It was really just like, I didn't even realize that it was there. And then the first time that I tweeted anything about politics, one, I found out how addictive it can be. So when you see these people who say crazy, crazy shit just to get more attention, I kind of got a taste of that. Because I had a tweet actually go viral that hit like one point something million people. Because I wrote, I wrote, this is before Andrew Lang, Andrew Yang went super identity, intersectional and politics person.

But like when he was just talking about fiscal and problem solving and he seemed very rational and very thought out, I was like, hmm, if you took this guy and you attached like a Tulsi Gabbard to the, as a VP candidate, that combo could give Trump a serious run for the money. That was the tweet, something like that. Oh my God, dude. My likes were like, like, like, my phone, I had to like fix my phone. It was insane. And I was like, I can see why these people get addicted to this because. I mean, it was crazy how many people were just hitting that like button. And I just, and it's not healthy. I mean, what I learned from maybe the last six months of being, and I don't want to say that I'm involved in any way, but just not having the self-discipline to not get involved, I guess it's probably the right way to put it, is that I completely understand why celebrities,

and these media personalities and people get addicted to saying this stuff and having these opinions and being so inflammatory is it is intoxicating. It really is. I mean, it's intoxicating to look at your Twitter and see 7,000 likes on a post. I mean, you know, I never. I mean, on some level, we all like to have attention. Yeah. And it's just this amplification of attention. And that's, like, of course, we're going to like that. Like, who, who wouldn't like people liking you. And when you can multiply that times a gazillion, now that's a powerful thing.

Yeah, even though rationally you know it's unhealthy. But dude, I want to talk. So, okay, so to give everyone to reframe our conversation, we had the opportunity to talk maybe, what was it, about a month ago? So it was still nice out. I was pacing my pool when we were having the conversation. And, you know, we were just talking a little bit about your story and your background and the things that you,

have going on and, you know, we were talking about a whole bunch of stuff. And I just, you know, I was like, man, I just want to have this conversation as much as you're willing to have it in, in, in, in, in, in this format because it just was the kind of story and, and just some of your thought processes and the way you approach different things. And, you know, what really hit me was you having the guts to, to kind of refocus and, and do that work. And, you know, some of that stuff like I think there's there's something really really powerful there so one I appreciate you coming on and two um why don't you I'd love for you to just to kind of jump in a little bit maybe maybe talk a little bit for people who haven't met you before just just tell them a little bit

about your you know the agency and what you have going on and then we can go from there sure and before I dive into it we always have music pumping in here and I have no idea if that's like you're good bro. That's good. All right. So, yeah. So let's see. The Jay Muller story in a nutshell.

Family insurance agency, same way that many of us have gotten into it. My dad ran the agency. He was a partner. And I got into the business around 2007. In about five years or so in, I was starting to really have some success. as a producer, you know, build my book. Money was good, taking home a nice paycheck.

But I just had this feeling that what we were doing was unsustainable in a lot of ways. Like the amount of work we were doing was becoming ridiculous. The way we were doing it was just, it was becoming more and more clear that it was completely archaic. And that's not a knock on, like, on that agency at all. Like, it was, it is an amazing agency that built a book of clients who love them and that they service extremely well. But the game clearly was changing rapidly, had changed rapidly, like, and it was passing us by. So, you know, it's, it's, and I think there's many agents that are in this situation where it's like, Life is pretty good.

You know, you're making good money. The family's happy. You wake up in the morning, you do your thing. But there's just, you're seeing that things are changing, and the path to change, to real change, is not an easy one, and it's not a clear one. So how do you, there were a number of kind of triggers that pushed me over the edge and just caused me to tear down the entire thing,

really risk the entire thing. I had to be operating in a space where I was willing to just throw it away to be able to move past that sort of that built-in structure that kept me doing what I was doing. So I think it was probably, you know, in 2000, it wasn't 2017 or in there. I just kind of reached a tipping point. I was working myself ragged.

I was just working nonstop. My book of business was growing, but because of some kind of complicated ownership structure, I couldn't hire people around me to help me. But the opportunities are still coming in. So I'm just like selling and selling and selling. And I just can't do anything to change the way that I'm operating or felt like I couldn't. And I remember telling my wife, I said, I've got 10 years and I'm done. Like if I do this for another 10 years and I'm still here,

I'm promising you today, I'm going to sell this thing. Like, wherever we are, I'm done. Because I can't do this to you anymore. I can't do it to myself anymore. I don't feel good as a father when my day is all about going in, going into a grind that I know doesn't have a long-term future because of the way that the organization is set up. And I'm just doing it to take home a paycheck so that I can retire early.

Now there's anything wrong. Anything that's really wrong with that, but it was just eating me apart. And when I wasn't, because it was such a huge part of my life, that became a very unhealthy thing for everyone around me. You know, it was like, it became this toxic thing, which was so unfortunate because it's a business that I freaking love. And it was just eating me up inside.

So I, you know, I had, I kind of changed the chip and I said, okay, I'm just going to do this for 10 more years and I'll be out. And that's it. And around that time, my, you know, my son was getting a little bit older. I said a little bit older. He was probably like three or something, you know, started to talk a little bit and, you know, engage more. Yeah.

And I really think it might have been fatherhood maybe that really, that really pushed me over the edge. But I just, I just decided, like, no, I'm not going to do that. I love this business. I want to change this business and build something that has power for the next 30 years, not the next three. And I don't want to be this like, I don't want the image of me as a father and husband to be this guy that just goes in and works every day for a paycheck and it's kind of miserable because of what he does. Like that, what the heck is that? Like, what kind of example am I giving? So I really started thinking about like, okay, well, what do I really enjoy doing?

Like if I'm going to change this thing, what do I enjoy? What am I good at? And I realized I would like to lead a team of people. I would like to introduce people to the amazing careers that insurance has to offer because it is an amazing industry to get into. We lose sight of that sometimes. And I really, like, I get a high off of empowering other people. Like when I can show someone else a path to success and help them achieve that, I just, I love that. So I knew that if I could build an organization that could offer success, that could successfully empower others and show people a path to success in perpetuity that that was a scalable thing. and I just started to create this vision of what the organization could look like.

Even though I was still very much, you know, I was in the day to day of the other thing. I just, I took some time every day, usually before the day started, you know, before my head got bogged down with emails, and those other crap, you know, that comes in where all of a sudden the brain is spinning in a zillion directions about what is very urgent right now. And I would just think about this vision of what could be. And I think the most, that's an idea, you know, the idea of the power of visions is something that I've continued with as we transition to this new model. And I think the most important piece about creating a powerful and effective vision is that it is completely detached from how you're going to achieve it. And maybe that's counterintuitive, but when I found that when I'm stuck in the how, the how is what creates the vision as opposed to the vision. itself and it has to start with the vision itself so saying okay five years from now not just

with my business but with my professional life with my family life what do I want that to look like like I'm you know standing outside of out of the house looking at it you know describing it in as much detail as possible what does that thing look like in the more times you kind of run through that that process the more real it becomes and then you know, you can back into a path to get to that place. And if somewhere along the line, you're like, okay, well, you know, I want to be a billionaire in five years. Well, okay, you know, maybe we do need to think about the hell there. But you really got to check yourself when you start thinking about, well, I can't do that because of this or this, this is not going to work because of that thing.

So I started developing this vision of what I wanted the agency to be and trying to, you know, opportunities of, you know, okay, what is something that could allow me to get out of this, this path that I'm stuck in? And there was sort of a shakeup in ownership structure, we'll say, and it was crazy. It was like the, we had a meeting and I just, I saw the opportunity, and it was like, it was like a gigantic, like lever that smacked me in the face. And it was like, this is the thing. Like this is the opportunity to take control of this organization and move forward. And it didn't, it was that, I didn't let it go a minute past from when I saw it to when I said, this is happening.

And that was early in 2018. And from that moment forward, all of 2018 was making that happen. And planning for 2019 when we, when we implemented our new agency model. So there's a lot there to unpack that. Thank you for that because there's a lot there. The first thing that I want to talk about is or ask you about is, and this is something that I have found very much in my own work and just life in general is, and I don't want this to sound too fluffy, but, so take it, take it for what it is.

I find that if my work isn't feeding my soul in some way, if that makes sense, what I'm saying to you. You know, I don't want it to be too ethereal, but if it's not satisfying me or if I'm not getting a sense of fulfillment from it, I'm kind of a shitty person in every other aspect of my life. And it drives my wife crazy because she'll say like, our home life is so good, which it is. I'm blessed. I have a tremendous spouse and great kids and a good family. And she'll say, why doesn't, why does it matter what's happening at work? And I really struggle to detach what's happening at work. It doesn't mean everything has to be going good, but the work has to be satisfying. And if it's not, man, I really, it carries over, it bleeds into

other aspects of my life. Is that what you were finding? Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I was very, I don't have any problem working very long days. You know, I still do that. I think it's, I think that the most, the most effective business leaders oftentimes don't do that. Like, they find a way to be really effective with the time that they have. But there are periods when, you know, you just got to do that thing. But when I was in that space of, to your point, like my soul was not happy with what I was doing, then you pile in these long hours on top of it. And it's just like, man, this is, I don't want to say I was miserable because I wasn't. I mean, I wasn't a miserable person, but I was not a happy person outside of work. And that's,

that's not a good thing for me or anybody around me. And to me, that's the beauty of this business. things that I've learned from Rogue is because you can craft an insurance agency into basically anything that you want it to be, right? It can be pure sales, you know, Wolf of Wall Street kind of style. It can be laid back. It can be local. It can be digital. It can be niche. It can be generalist. I was just listening to Steve Holly on Carruthers podcast and he runs this great, you know, he calls it a generalist main street agency, three locations yet he's driven off a hub spot. So there's something traditional about Steve Holly's operation. But, but, you know, and even in that, in that is its own monster, right?

He is very digital but also local. So my point in saying all that is it's like if we, we, there's definitely a disconnect. Because of how flexible our career is, there is definitely a disconnect when you don't feel rewarded, right? Or because you know logically, I can turn this thing into something that. that really makes me happy. So why isn't that there? Right?

It's very weird feeling. Yeah. Yeah, and we're in such a crazy spot now and have been for years because of, you know, it's been said over and over again, but it's so true, there's all these shiny objects out there. And it's like, oh, I can change it by this doing this thing or that thing or I'm gonna buy this solution or that solution.

There is no solution that can be purchased. Yeah. There are zero solutions that can be bought in this lifetime. And certainly in this business. that was that was I think was a lesson that I learned as I went as I went through this process because when I did finally sort of set myself free from this other structure I'm like oh I can't do this because that I'm like all right now I can do whatever I want and I was at elevate in 2018 and I think I bought every shiny object like you know that every vendor was offering and I was like oh crap I can't put it

all together so then I had to you know restructure it all with a better more more more clear vision um I don't know where I'm going with that but no I get it I get it you you you almost want um and this and I very much, dude, what you just described is what I did. I had a whole battle plan rolling into rogue. Seven days in, zombie apocalypse happens. I get, you know, I was planning on tacking the fitness market doesn't exist in New York State anymore. My next plan was to go after the restaurant market. That doesn't exist anymore. So now I'm literally, the two campaigns that I had figured would would be the first six to 12 months of the existence of my agency are not, I have not set my agency up for personal lines. I was like going to be commercial. I was going to go after fitness

and restaurants. And that, that was my plan. It gone. Completely toast. So like all of a sudden I started filling that void of with, well, what if I change from like, I had this awesome build out from Austin Moorhead and Infusionsoft. And, and, and, and, and, well, what if I change? from that to agency Zoom. And then if I changed from agency Zoom to better agency, which I love, actually I love all three of those tools. You can't go wrong with any of them. My mom better to see now, but, but I changed three times. I went from this tool to that tool to try this, to this program, and because I was trying to fill this void, I think that you just talked about of something feels wrong. Something isn't working. And instead of just, and ultimately we'll get to this,

instead of kind of figuring out what I actually wanted in executing, I was trying to do all these different things, hoping something would be a magic pill. And it's like what's so, I guess I don't want to say funny. I guess funny now, but what's funny is that like we've been told a million times not to do that. 10 million times.

Every person ever said, don't do that. Yet we still do it. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to talk about this. And then I want to take this into kind of where you actually went was, I love this concept of detaching the how from what you want.

And I'd love for you to break that down. Like, where did you get that from? How did you figure that out? Well, how did you stay detached? Because my mind always goes to, like, I'll give you an example. And so there was something in better agency that I wanted to do that, that they haven't released the update yet. I know it's coming, but it's not there. My mind immediately goes to, well, geez, if I just switched over to this other tool, I know it can do it right now. So why don't

I do that? That is such a ridiculous mental jump, right? Because I was immediately went to the, how do I achieve this thing I want to achieve instead of staying focused on the broader vision of what I was trying to do, having some perspective and understanding and pushing forward. So how did you stayed attached from the how and where did you get that idea to begin with? Yeah. I think there were kind of two critical moments that that kind of helped me with that philosophy and to the best of my ability, you know, live to it. I'm not going to say I'm like a, you know, I'm there all the time.

But it was when I was first creating the vision for the new model of Comargo and was blessed with an amazing business mentor who really helped me when I was faced with a crisis that I didn't know how to handle. And one of the first exercises we really got down to it was where do you see Comargo insurance in five years? And as soon as I started running down a path of like how to do this thing or that, it was like, well, wait a second. I didn't say how are you going to get there. It's what do you want it to be? and because I was in such a I felt like I was in such a trapped situation I really had to just focus on the vision there was no how like the how was insane the how was a totally crazy idea which we finally did which involved risking everything so like if I'm

focused on that thing I'm never going to be able to focus on what I actually wanted to be so that was the first time And then I met another business leader here locally who is, he's really into this vivid vision process. And that's where I kind of took that to another level and took it from just the business to life overall. And it's not, so you break it down. You know, it's literally a process. Say, okay, well, what is my vision of my business? What is my vision of my career, which is different? and then what is my vision of my family life and what is my vision of my personal life?

So those are different things. And all the times we just group them all together. And when I saw the way that he created his own and how it evolved over time and really the power of thinking through those things, I just loved it. And when I'm really, really using that idea to its fullest, and I will not tell you that I, that I stick to this all the time, you know, kind of like working out, it's like I do it and then I float out of it, then I get back into it. It's when it's in the morning before anything starts. And that, that vivid vision is, and it's a document. I have it, you know, saved in Google Docs and literally gets updated, you know, and go in there, okay, well, these things changed. but it's always what does this thing look like in five years,

this thing, whether that, you know, again, that's me, that's my career, that's Camargo, or that's my family, and describing it in as much detail as possible. And there, I mean, there's a lot of power in, in the brain. And it's either, it's either, the brain either limits us or it empowers us, depending on how we use it. When we get stuck and how we're going to do something, then it becomes limiting. Because it's like, it's a loop, as opposed to expanding it and saying,

well, anything is possible. And once I got a little bit better at that, it became a lot of fun. Because then, well, if I'm detached from the hell, I can envision anything I want. And, you know, for example, I mean, my family and I were moving to Spain next year. Now, that's something we've been planning on for over 10 years. It's not like, you know, created that yesterday in my division. I'm like, I'm going to move out of the country. But she's from Spain.

Her family is over there. We've been planning that, you know, return to that country for a long time. I will continue to run the business. I'll be back and forth. And I've been doing that for probably 10 years where we go over there every summer. I usually come back for a couple of weeks, take care of anything else we've done in person.

And then we're over there for usually a month over the holidays. And during different periods of our life, when we've had to be there for certain things, I've probably spent six months or more, you know, per year there. So it's not like out of the blue. But those kinds of things, if you think about, if I told you today, well, I'm going to leave the country

and, you know, move my family somewhere else. Well, how are you going to do that? well, like why not? Like news flash, nobody has to see anybody in person anymore. So why are we sitting where we are? Like really, why? Why are we here? Just because I was here before.

That's it. I think, wow, that's crazy. You know, that is, you know, and I don't mean that, like in a negative sense, that's just it takes this idea of kind of, envisioning what you want and executing on it to like a whole other level. I mean, the idea of running an agency from a different country, specifically a country across the ocean,

where you couldn't just, if there's a problem, you know what I mean? You can't be there the next day. I mean, you have to, I mean, maybe I guess you can,

but it's not like it's, not as easy. It's not like you want to do that, nor is it easy. You can't just, you know, kind of leak down from Canada or something, you know.

But then when we think about it, I think, okay, well, you know, we, we used, we began using VAs this year. I mean, they're in India. So how come I'm in Cincinnati and my VAs are in India and half my team is across the river in Kentucky. The other app is here in the office in Cincinnati, well, the other, whatever percent is here in the office than the other rest of them are somewhere else in Ohio. You know, it's all fiber optics.

Yeah. I'm with you. I mean, I have, I have a VA who lives in the Philippines, who's right now. Now, unfortunately, he's experiencing a typhoon and hasn't had power for two days, but though he is safe, which is good. And my producer, she lives in Staten Island, which is might as well be a different world from upstate New York, you know what I mean? Across the water, right?

Yeah, because she's three plus hours away. I mean, you know, we've never even met in person, ever. So, and we work perfectly fine. we zoomed yesterday for an hour and a half catching up and, and it's just funny. You know, I mean, like, I think that this, this way of thinking, you know, there is something, there is something very appealing about being the local agency, right? The, you know, hey, stop in and there's something appealing about that to me. But, and I actually put a lot of thought into this a couple weeks ago.

you kind of at a certain point you have to mash who you are against what you think sounds like a good idea being the local agency here in Albany sounds like a good idea to me right that sounds nice oh yeah just you know he's right over there and that's that's but it's not who I am I I have probably less clients in this area code than I do like then I have otherwise and everything we do is virtual. Everything we do is, you know, has nothing to do with us breathing the same air. I have a couple of clients that I've seen, but I'll be honest with you. I have a client I just took on who, you know, paid me with a hard check and I regret,

I will never take a hard check ever again. Just the process of dealing with the check and dealing with the company and doesn't. I will never do that ever again. I will never take another hard check. I'll never take cash, ever. It's just, we're just not that agency. And I think that's a tough thing sometimes, is marrying what sounds or looks like a good idea

versus who you actually are. And, you know, there can be some disconnects and bad decisions made there if you don't have the vision that you're talking about. If you're not kind of playing to a point. And David Carruthers beats me up about this all the time because he can be so focused and he's so good at you know and and i'm i i'm i'm can be very scatterbrained well me too i mean you see that blackboard back yeah i was going to say that's a

pretty that's a pretty impressive blackboard you have behind you well yeah but but it's there's the notes are written in every direction possible it's like that's like i never went to kindergarten or something um i just that's i don't know i have a hard time keeping things in a normal structure. Like it's either in a spreadsheet or it looks like that. There is a in between. Yeah. So, okay. So you, you, you, you, you were feeling discomfort. You were a grinder. You were starting to feel the fact that you're, your, what was going on at work, wasn't really feeding your soul. Those are my words. I don't want you to sound overly ethereal if you don't want to be. But then you, you had, you created this vision. You started to really think about

what the agency, what you wanted the agency to be in five years, uh, remove the how, which I, I love that. I, I, I, I'm going to put some, I'm going to put some, some thought time into that idea because I think that's a hang up for me. Um, and I don't know that I've ever thought about it that way. Um, and then you make this move. So let's get to the, let's get to the, let's get to the, let's get to the, so then you make this, this kind of power move. Let's talk us through this. Yeah. So, um, um, we saw an opportunity to to make it happen. And I just, I knew, I knew that was the opportunity.

So I knew, I also knew that opportunity was going to involve a serious amount of risk. And it would be painful. You know, my family was going to need to be on board with it. It was going to hurt financially for probably a period of years. but it was the right move. So we, man, during that period of 2018 through like early 2019, I moved my family three times. We lived in three different homes. I'm big into real estate investment.

That's like, that's my other passion. So I don't, you know, it's not like I was, we were like in the streets or something like that. Things were fine. But what was really paying the bills all of a sudden was completely put at risk. And I wasn't sure whether or not we were going to come through the other side of it. And I needed to make sure that if we didn't, you know, my family was in a position where we'd be okay. So we sold our home and we renovated a duplex.

That renovation went up for rails. So we were living by parents that got a little bit old with, you know, young kids in the same household with parents or anything. So we got a short-term apartment. then finally ended up moving into another rental home, which is where, you know, where we're still living. So, you know, there was, there was a, it was a period of very rapid change. I remember telling my wife during that period that I feel like every day I wake up and I might make three potentially life-changing decisions. And it was really like that because I didn't know what was going, I didn't know what the result of this whole process was going to be. I knew that by the end of the year, something would have happened.

For better or for worse, something was happened. Like the wheels were in motion. And operating in that space, after a while, it became cool. It became empowering because every day I had to wake up and just be ready to like make big decisions all the time. And once I got comfortable in that space, I realized, wow, like, all right, I can take this thing somewhere. So finally, we came through it. We got the deal we needed. During this period where I wasn't really sure it was going to happen, I'm like,

I'm signing leases to build out office space. Like for a business, I don't even know if I'm going to have. I'm like, I'm recruiting people, selling them on this vision of something that isn't really there yet. And, you know, we got it. So January 2019, my second worst nightmare came true. And we made all this happen. And literally, I had not hired a single person.

into the new the new business so signed this expensive relatively expensive lease built this brand new beautiful awesome office hindsight maybe not a great decision and walk in the doors January 1st I had hired one person but she was not going to start until like in springtime and we had this business to run you know clients needed ID cars needed to add and remove vehicles and drivers and all the other stuff. And it was, you know, myself and into other amazing people that I am forever grateful for that that came with me on that journey. And there was. Did you basically buy out your book? What did you do as much as you're willing to talk about it? Like what, what happened, you know, is, you know, and I don't, and you don't have to get into specifics, but just like,

did you start your whole new agency? Did you buy your book out? Did you buy another agency? Like, How did this, like you made this big move? What kind of, I guess, was the move as much as you can talk about it? So essentially the agency split and we retained the name. That is kind of like as basic as I could describe what happened. So we were Camargo insurance. We are Camargo insurance. We kept our book of business.

And the other, you know, various owners and contractors and things went their own way. Gotcha. That makes sense. That makes sense. So that's a big move. So you become the sole owner of this new entity that retain the name, but is way different than what it was before. Yeah. Yeah.

So then it was like, all right, well, there's no excuses now. We can build whatever we want. Like there is nobody else that I can turn to and say, like, well, I can't do it because of this or that. It's all this guy, right? Yeah. So then we're, you know, we're managing this book and we don't have a lot of people. So we're like, okay, we need service centers. Like without service centers, we just, we cannot survive.

And if we're going to stay focused on this vision of what we know it can be, I need to find a way to actually work on the business. And that, you know, that involved putting some processes in place to make sure that I was not talking to everybody that called in that wanted to talk to me. And then that was, like, that was painful, honestly. Like, I enjoy talking to Mr. Custer. I'm not going to say I enjoy every single conversation. Sometimes, you know, those are kind of painful. But the book grew because I liked what I was doing.

and now it's like, all right, I can't talk to Joe and Jim and Sue because I just don't have, I do not have the luxury of the time to talk to them because this is a very urgent situation. And what we need to do to make this thing work is start building a team like right now. And we need to make that team effective right now. So, you know, it started with screening calls that are coming in and having somebody manage my email inbox so that people were getting taken care of, but I didn't have to see all that stuff. And then, you know, everything went to my voicemail and then somebody else looked at it and then distributed those voicemails accordingly.

So it was like, all right, I'm not like that created a lot of time. Not to say I wasn't getting dragged back into all kinds of stuff. I absolutely was. And then I really got down to focusing on bringing, building a sales team. And our focus was, okay, I'm going to bring. in awesome, killer-freaking B-to-B salespeople from other industries because it's just not in the cards. I can't afford to bring on somebody, you know, experienced insurance producer. Like, first of all, how does, that very rarely happens that somebody just switches shops,

like because. And if they do, it's like, why? There's always hair on that dog. Always. There's no, any way you slice it, there's hair on that dog. So I want to, I want to, And really, you know, what I wanted to do was show people the power of this industry and help them succeed in it. So we hired some really awesome people that that were young B2B salespeople in other industries. They were literally, you know, door knockers, like just crushed the door knocking, you know, old school. Like that, that was the way that the businesses they worked for were set up and they just crush it, man. So I taught them the insurance side of things and they went out and sold and our, my whole idea up front. I'm not an automation ninja. Not really, I love the idea of technology. I am terrible

at technology. Like, I love thinking about what it can do, but you put me in the system and say, like, do almost anything. I am like the biggest freaking Luddite that you've ever met. But I realize that's okay, as long as I have somebody else on my team that can help me with that piece of it. And I can provide direction on where I want the thing to go. So out of the gate, like we didn't have that. You know, we were on hawksofts like does fine managing your policies, but it's not going to, you know, create any amazing, it's not really a CRM, you know, it's not going to do anything from an automation standpoint. It's really going to help us. I don't have a

marketing background. I knew we had, I knew that marketing need to be a core part of what we do moving forward, but that's not going to just become a thing overnight. So I said, all right, well, I'm going to build, I'm going to build a team of door knockers. And And that's what we did. And then once I got a team of door knockers, that's there bringing in revenue and building experience, then we can say, okay, well, let's focus on the next level, which is how do we make Camargo really very similar to what you talk about with rogue risk? I call it empowering. Like, how do I empower my people through technology? I just love that idea of empowerment and all of its senses. But, you know, we talk about where our industry is now, man, there is a lot of potential in empowering people through technology. You call it the human optimized agency. So once we had that foundation, you know, then it was like, all right, well, let's get serious about what technology we're using and how we can truly build an integrated solution that's going to empower our people to do this thing in a better way.

Yeah. How, what was your process like for getting the salespeople up and running? You know, how long did it take you? Like, what did you? how did you do that? Well, so it started with the right people, really, with the right people on board that have experience in B2B sales and like it, and just happen to be in an industry that's not as good as insurance,

which, by the way, is like almost all of them. Yeah. If I could get those people in, then it was, okay, just do what you do. You already know how to do what you do to get out and build a relationship and get in front of somebody, like going from cold to closed. Like we're here. We're sitting at this table because you know how to do that. So go do that thing.

When you bring in the opportunity, I will help you structure the underwriting, structure the submission. And then we hired experienced, ultimately our account manager, our first account manager came from the carrier side from claims. Ali Vaughn, she's amazing. now are operations and innovation manager. But she had a claims background with Liberty. So I was kind of, she had the insurance background, but not any agency baggage, which honestly was a benefit. Yeah.

So my producers would bring it in. I would kind of get them together and say, okay, this is how you submit something. Like these are the carrier sites or like these are the underwriters you got to talk to. Here's what an accord form looks like. You know, here's how you complete it and got them working together. then shortly thereafter that we brought in an experienced account manager from another agency that had that experience and that was really the idea was bringing in the sales the inexperienced salespeople and partner them with somebody with experience on the on the

insurance side and that's yeah I think you know I think I agree with what you said about you know in industry talent is very difficult um because I think, you know, it's so hard. And I know there's a lot of good producers that work for agencies that they don't love. It doesn't mean they're in bad situations. They don't love it there. They, you know, the grass is always greener. I oddly get a lot of calls from producers from around the country who want to work for rogue,

which is weird because this thing is a shit show right now. I mean, look, we're on a, I have a vision and we're on a path. I understand, man. Right. But it would, I would be very intellectually dishonest if I were to tell you that this is like a smooth sailing shit. But, you know, it's just not. You know, we're still piecing things together. I still got to do a lot of stuff.

So to my point is when you bring people in from outside the industry, they don't often come with the baggage or the expectations that an in industry person comes from. Also, like you said, they're just less expensive. And you can help them get to the point where they are valuable. You know, they do have a ton of experience. But I think as a, you know, when I think about this and I think about it a lot because I am not the world's best producer. I, you know, to me, I envy when you're like I grind and sell and call and bring the business in, I'm a marketer.

I'm really a marketer and I feel like I have some decent technology and leadership skills. but I am a marketing person. I am not a salesperson. I'm just not. I can sell. You know what I mean? I can sell. But I am not that the other side of that coin

where you just show up and you're like, I'm going to sell a bunch of stuff and get all jacked up and smash beer cans off my head. Like I am not that guy. And I'll do the beer can smashing, but I'm like the natural salesman. That really is not me either. It was.

Yeah. That's a difficult thing. It was like son of boss syndrome who's really freaking stubborn. and so I was there long enough that I just kind of figured out what I was supposed to do. Yeah. But, I mean, the people that are on our team now, I mean, they're freaking light years ahead of me from a, from a natural talent. I know. So I've thought about this a lot because I want, I can't wait to, I want, like the producer

I have down in Staten Island, I love having her because she is, she's former life insurance. She's, or, you know, she still does some life in her own, um, for her. own life, she has her own life insurance agency that she runs it, but PCs. And I feel like my job is just to feed her opportunities. I want to get her the carriers, the opportunities, and I want to make sure the workflow is behind her. So she can just call and sell and call and sell. And that is what I'm good at. I am not, I do not get motivated, nor do I feel any, uh, energy from calling and selling and calling and selling. I just, it's an odd thing. I just don't. It's weird, right? I mean, it's just a weird. Everybody's wired differently, you know, and it's like,

Like, that was really one of the, talk about that theme of empowerment. Again, one of the empowering things about going through this process of changing the organization and saying, okay, I'm going to lead and run an organization, not going to be the organization, was that I was able to recognize my own deficiencies in hot, which, of which there are very many. And then hire people, awesome people that can do all those things way better than I can. Yeah. And now all of a sudden we have power. So I can kind of, I can stay in my lane. Now I got to be the one that's, you know, captaining the ship. Otherwise, it's going to, you know, it's going to go in any and all directions. And that's not good. But I don't need to be the person that's connecting technology. Because I'm going to do that really terribly. I don't need to be the person that's creating relationships from nothing because that that's not good. Now you put it in front of me, you know, I'll crush it. But yeah, that's, I mean, that's an exciting thing, man, because once you, like, once you turn that corner, and I can tell, just listening to your podcast like you're you know you're heading that direction man you're gonna that it's gonna be fun because you're gonna be able to focus on what you like and that was what i found man when i finally got to the point that i could focus on what i liked then it became really really fun and i was surrounded by good people that that were focusing on what they loved and then

you've got this synergy of of of awesomeness yeah no i think that's great i think you know when i when i from talking to so many agency owners and um again this isn't an easy thing we're regardless, but it feels to me like many of the agency owners that really hit their stride, that really like wake up every day and feel really good about their agency, have taken that step to remove themselves from the stuff they don't like doing. And some of them still love to sell, which is great, right? They've put themselves in a position where they still sell a lot. They like that.

Again, that's what you choose to do. Yeah, what you choose to do isn't the point. point. The point is they've removed everything that they don't like to do or they don't have a solid skill set in from their day to day so that they can focus on the things that they are good at. And, you know, that, that to me feels like a defining step in an agency's evolution when you're able to do that. Absolutely. I, so this board here, it kind of ebbs and flows on what I'm tracking on it. But having something really big in my face helps me. stay focused on it. Otherwise, it's, you know, it's gone in a flash. So I had the old quadrants,

Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4 of, what is it, important but not urgent. Whatever, urgent but not important, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, the idea is that most of us end up working on the urgent and important because it's urgent and important. You got to get it done and it's important. And just kind of having that up in my face and knowing that, okay, well, my objective is to be running this thing, not being in it. That's not going to happen overnight. It's going to take time to get there. But if I'm tracking what I'm doing on that board,

every time I find myself operating in that important and urgent category, it's like, why am I there? Why am I doing this thing? Am I doing this because I just want to? Am I doing it because I had some failure of process, and that's why I ended up on my plate? and that that really helped me kind of keep keep things moving towards that not urgent but important quadrant.

Yeah. Yeah, I think what you're doing, man, is awesome. I think that I think the way you're approaching the agency is just another tremendous example of crafting this thing to be what fits your life and what you want it to be. And that's one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on and tell your story and talk a little bit, because I think so I think it's very easy to get caught up in what everyone else is doing. Right. Like I remember, you know, I-O-A this year in San Diego, which was awesome.

Like you talk to so many people and it's, you know, and they're telling me, yeah, I do this and I do this. And it's so hard not to leave an event like that and be like, oh, I should be doing this thing over here and I should be doing this. Man, I should be going after this thing. And even Crothers talks about that a little bit. I was just listening to his podcast. That's why he's in my brain. but about him coming out of one of the IOs and now he's in personal lines and this and stuff.

I think it's very easy to get caught up in what you feel like you should be doing. And what I think what's awesome about your story and Camargo is you are, you made the very tough, very risky decision to build the agency to what you wanted it to be. And I'm sure, you know, nothing's ever perfect and nothing's ever exactly.

But you are, you're on that path and you're you're taking the steps forward to get there and um i think more people need to hear that we can build these things however we want you want to forever be a one person show god bless you you want to have a hundred people god bless you you want to be the local agency amazing you want to be fully digital you know clients all over the country whatever all of it is possible but i think it's what you what do you want what do you actually want to be who do you want to work with And I love, and this is, I think, the core idea that I hope people take away is if we remove the how and we really think about what we want, then the how kind of gets, it kind of solves itself to a certain extent. Yeah. Well, you have focusing on the vision, I think, is the number one most important thing.

When trying to do something big, whatever big means for whoever is trying to do it is. will like focus on where it's going and then back into the how yeah it's a it's a reversal of thinking through it well dude i uh i appreciate you i want to be respectful of your time and um where can people get at you said LinkedIn the good place to connect if people want to just connect with you and see what you're doing and absolutely yeah uh love love the linkton uh j muller Camargoinsurance.com is our site. But yeah, ping me on LinkedIn. Love to connect.

And to your point, learn what everybody is doing in this industry. Because there are a million ways to do it. And we can all learn from each other. And that's we're at a really cool point in time where we're sharing and empowering each other. Yeah, it's awesome. All right, buddy. Hey, appreciate you coming on and be good. Yep, you too, man.

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