Finding Peak w/ Ryan Hanley - The Futuristic Framework for Exceptional Performance | Chris Deaver

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

Spartan philosophy, built in the black-ops lab of business: https://www.findingpeak.comFinding Peak podcast: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanleyDiscover the intricate dance between bravery and ego in business with our special guest, Chris Deaver. Want more? Go deeper down the rabbit hole: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanley Connect with Chris DeaverBraveCore: https://bravecore.co/Brave Together book: https://bravecore.co/blog/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-deaver/We start with a thought-provoking discussion on the true nature of bravery—not just the absence of fear but a potent energy that can be magnified through collective effort. Chris shares his insightful perspective on how bravery can be a driving force within teams, especially during challenging times like the pandemic when ego can become our greatest obstacle.We then venture into the high-stakes realm of the NBA to examine how ego influences leadership and team performance. Drawing lessons from iconic legends like Michael Jordan and LeBron James, we uncover how humility and loyalty are essential for fostering team cohesion and achieving success. With real-life examples, we reveal the importance of setting aside personal accolades for the greater good and how this mindset can lead to extraordinary achievements both on and off the court.Finally, we focus on the transformative power of co-creation and emotional vulnerability in leadership. By exploring the leadership styles of Michael Jordan and Steve Jobs, we highlight the importance of openness and receptivity, from creating a strong internal culture to asking the right questions. Wrapping up with insights from the inspiring book "Brave Together," we encourage leaders to embrace empathy, compassion, and collaborative leadership to foster innovation and sustained success. Join us on this journey to become better co-creators and leaders in your own right.--Recommended Tools for GrowthOpusClip: #1 AI video clipping and editing tool: https://link.ryanhanley.com/opusRiverside: HD Podcast & Video Software | Free Recording & Editing: https://link.ryanhanley.com/riversideWhisperFlow: Never waste time typing on your keyboard again: https://link.ryanhanley.com/whisperflowCaptionsApp: One app for all your social media video creation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/captionsappGoHighLevel: It's time to take your business workflow to the Next Level: https://link.ryanhanley.com/gohighlevelPerspective.co: The #1 funnel builder for lead generation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/perspective--Episodes You Might Enjoy:From $2 Million Loss to World-Class Entrepreneur: https://lnk.to/delkFrom One Man Shop to $200M in Revenue: https://lnk.to/tommymelloIs Psilocybin the Gateway to Self-Mastery? https://lnk.to/80upZ9This show is part of the Unplugged Studios Network — the infrastructure layer for serious creators. 👉 Learn more at https://unpluggedstudios.fm.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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Want to give your host a gift? Consider subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show this holiday season. It really helps the show grow. From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday. Fear I see is this potential energy. Limits of that go way beyond our own capabilities. Being brave can be really unleashed and amplified when we're, we're being brave with others.

Let's go. Yeah, make it look, make it look, the Ryan Hanley show shares the original ideas, habits, and mindsets of world-class original thinkers you can use to produce extraordinary results in your life and business. This is the way. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show.

It is tremendous to have you here, and we have a fantastic conversation for you today with Chris Deaver. He is the co-founder of Brave Corps, a leadership and culture consulting and coaching company. He is the co-author of the book Brave Together, which I'm going to give my highest recommendation to. And I'll tell you guys, this is one of the most tactical, in-depth, applicable kind of culture leadership conversations we have ever had on this show. Chris really dives into this idea of co-creation and what it means for developing the successful company cultures of the future.

We talk detail. We talk applicable strategies that you can put in your business today. I highly recommend you pick up Chris's book. We'll have it in the show notes or the description wherever you're watching or listening to this show. We'll have a link to both Brave course page where you can learn more about Chris and his work as well as his book Brave Together, which again, I highly recommend you pick up this book. If you are a leader, if you are trying to build a company with a culture that can go beyond

where you alone can take it, right? We can only take our companies so far alone or with disjointed cultures. But when our people align together, when our people take ownership of what we're doing, when they feel that they're part of the creation process, you can go 10 times, a hundred times. You can go farther than you could have ever imagined. And Chris outlines exactly how to do that and how he's implementing these strategies

in Fortune 500 companies, Fortune 500 companies across the US through his coaching company, BraveCorp. I want to thank you for being here. I love you for being here. If it's your first time with this show, make sure you subscribe. If you have comments, guys, leave them in the reviews on Apple or Spotify or on YouTube.

Right? Come in, let us know what you think. What parts of these strategies, make sense, don't make sense. The guests that come on this show are amazing at coming back in and answering those direct questions. And if I can answer the question, I will as well. It is a fantastic way to keep the conversation going around this topic. Guys, you are going to love this episode.

I love you for being here. Let's get on to Chris Deaver. Dude, incredibly excited to have you on the show. Love your work. Love your mindset. that I've actually done some diving on my own just as I started reading your stuff and I started I want to start with the word bravery. It's not a word that's used a lot today.

I think it's often, I don't know that it's often misunderstood, but I don't think people really dive into what bravery means. So you use this word a lot in your work. What is bravery today and how does it apply to our businesses? as either entrepreneurs, leaders, et cetera. How does it apply to that in the context of our work lives? Yeah, that's a great question. Thanks again for having me on.

I'm excited to dive in. And, you know, I think the thing we usually hear in, you know, whether any kind of self-help or, you know, leadership, material, or just conversation, usually we think about being brave as the counter to fear. And there's truth to that. But usually we think about it just as an either-or. We're either having, you've got fear or being brave. But really, fear I see is this potential energy, right, that has way more potential

than just, you know, getting us out of the negative. And there's so much more to what it can do. And the limits of that go way beyond our own capabilities, right? So usually we think about it in just the individual personal context, but being brave, can be really unleashed and amplified when we're being brave with others. How does bravery relate to the concept of ego? You put this phenomenal proclamation out. I was reading through your LinkedIn, and when I hit this,

I have it up on the screen now, and I'll make sure in the show notes for everybody, I'll include the LinkedIn post so one you guys can connect or follow Chris and also see this document that I'm looking at. I've been a firm believer for a long time that what holds us back in almost every aspect of our lives is the ego, right? It can be a positive, but it oftentimes is corrupted into something that ends up having negative consequences for us. So how does bravery apply to the negative aspects of ego and overcoming them if that's even how we relate it? Yeah.

That's a big, great question. And we all have, you know, a tendency to, you know, lean to ego at times. We're human beings, we're people. And I think especially in the world of, you know, we're trying to do something different, right? Whether it's as an entrepreneur, building our own business or inside a company, being an interpreter. You know, the reality is, like, you've got to have confidence of what you're doing. But, you know, ego really starts to get in the way at times when we don't even know it. It's, you know.

And so, yeah, the letter was, and it's really a statement to ego. It's a, it's a breakup letter, right? It's like, hey, we're done, you know. And I think especially the pandemic, it showed kind of the true colors about how little ego serves us and how much of a disservice it is to us. But to give one example, just highlight, I think this, how this really plays out. You look at NBA teams, and, you know, these are people who, you know, show up in that, at that level, right, pro level.

And they've all been told, they've all worked hard enough to be the best. Right. So, and you bring it together a group of people who have been told or who have earned being the best. And so suddenly what happens, though, and because of kind of the marketing engine of MBA, they pick out one person, one or two guys, typically, and they'll say, hey, this is a star. If they don't play well, you know, we're not winning or it's not, you know, things aren't going as great as we want, whatever. right but all the pressure is on this one person what it does is actually it actually causes issues and

we looked at the data on this and you know take for example john morant with the uh with his team uh the team actually statistically plays better without him uh lebron james i know it's going to sound surprising because a lot of people love lebron but the lakers statistically speaking they play better without him. And, you know, Michael Jordan, he's probably an argument for the other. And, you know, I will say the caveat there is when LeBron's on fire, when he's playing well, when he's playing selfless, it, you know, it pulls the team together. And likewise with, you know, we saw it with the Warriors and their peak time. And, you know, Jordan as well when they, when he, I mean, but I think the, the point is, is that, and I guess the reason there is you have a bunch of players

who are saying, hey, well, they assume that they're the best. They're being told they're not, right? Because there's this one person. But that's the challenge with ego in our lives is like suddenly, you know, somebody's got this kind of competitive notion of like who's better, you know, or competing against, you know, this unseen force in our lives that we feel like we can never attain, right? And that's also a problem.

Yeah. It doesn't surprise me a lot of LeBron because I can't. Dan LeBron, but I'm more of a Kobe Michael guy. I'm with you. For anyone who follows me on Instagram, they know that every time I see Michael Jordan, LeBron James comparison, I always posted into my stories because I just, I can't. Michael, to me, was obviously had his failings as a leader of that team for sure in some of the ways that he went about things.

And I don't want to even say failings. I'd say friction points. is probably a better way to put it. Certainly not the leadership style that everyone would recommend in their company. However, he did two things that I find that I just keep coming back to when I'm comparing the two, which is he was always focused on the goal, and his numbers didn't matter to him. He almost never knew how many points he had. He cared about winning the game.

And if he could take the shot and win the game, he would take the shot. But if there was someone better to take the shot, then he would pass the ball or he would set the play up or in multiple cases, they won games on last second shots by other players in which he was actually the diversion. And that was set up by him. And like, that to me, when you have a guy who you would think, and he had an ego, obviously, I mean, Jordan knew he was the best and thought he was the best at all times. But when you also see that that person is willing to set the goal.

that aside in moments where it's necessary, it's like you'll put up with all the other stuff or some of the, maybe some of the friction, because you know that when the rubber meets the road, they're going to be there for you. So is it humility? Is it loyalty? Like, what does the other side of ego look like for someone who goes, okay, I, maybe I do oftentimes operate with ego. Where are the places? What are the skill set? Are you tired of endless follow-ups and missed opportunities in your sales process. Chasing leads is a losing game. That's why I created the one call closed system,

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all while watching your revenue skyrocket. Ready to stop chasing leads and start closing, visit masteroftheclose.com today. Close twice as many deals this time next week. Visit master of theclose.com to learn how. That's that I should start thinking about to overcome some of this. Yeah, absolutely. And I think Michael's a great example because, in many ways because to your point, well, first of all, whenever that conversation comes up with him,

he always defers, right? He won't claim, he's never claimed being the goat, which is fascinating in and of itself. And actually, his response to that question, we include this in the book, is this where he says, you know, that's the wrong question. The right question is, is what's the greatest team of all time? And then he flashes his rings, right? And to your point, that was his focus, right? And there's a moment in the last dance. I think it's, you know, in episode seven, is my favorite part of the whole thing. And they're, they're kind of cornering about his leadership approach, right, which sometimes was tough on them. But he always said, I don't, I never expected more of them than I expected of myself, right, which is leadership.

And his will to win, what he says in that moment, too, he said, he, he, he, he says, you know, some people didn't like my method or, you know, don't like my methods. But what I really wanted, I always wanted to win. He said, but I really wanted most was I wanted the team to want to win and to feel what that felt like. And he starts to get emotionally like tears up. He goes, turn the camera out, you know, but that's like his soul. And I think there's so much power in that because he is laying his ego aside, right? In that moment, what he's doing is saying, hey, I'm willing to make the hero sacrifice. And, you know, we talk about the hero's journey. We love the part at the end with the rewards. And, you know, we get all the stuff and, you know,

get the money and the fame. But the part that people don't like as much because it's painful is the hero's sacrifice. And to your point, you know, for him, that's deferring to Pippin or passing to Steve Kerr for that game-winning shot. And those are the kinds of things. Or, you know, going in and he's got the flu, right? He's sick. Yeah. You know, it's crazy stuff.

But I think those are the kinds of things where we look at ourselves and say, you know, the answer is going to be, we're going to have to make some kind of sacrifice. right and I think sacrifice is a principle that is unfortunately kind of getting lost it feels like but it doesn't have to be like we can find power in making the sacrifices you know for our future and you know especially for others right for the team yeah I love that to me in the companies that I've either founded or run myself something that I try to reiterate to the team and this is a learned lesson I don't want to say like this is just something that was interesting forensicic and Simon, not many failed conversations and meetings and leadership moments to get to this mindset. But, you know, I used to say to the team every day, you know, I'm here to support you. Like, you tell me what your problems are. And as the CEO, as much as it's in a vein that I can help, I'm here to put you in your best position, right? It's not about me being on top of the mountain and just preaching down to you all the things. We catch ourselves in that, like, why salespeople won't pick up the phone or, you know,

like do their job. You know, we get frustrated in moments, but ultimately it's if you can spin that back on how am I, how am I impacting them not picking up the phone or not following up with a prospect? What is my role in that? Am I not giving them the right tools? Are they not properly trained? Right. We often don't sink down to that level.

It's like this, and you address this. I don't know if it's in the book or the, I can't remember if it's in the article or not, but you've addressed this where it's like, just because I told you to do, like, it's your job, do your job, right? That mentality of like, just do your job, that doesn't motivate anybody. And you have this, this, the co-creation process that you outlined in your book, the framework, and I want to get into that. Like, to me, what you outlined is the solution.

Like, guys, everybody needs to read the, this book. I'm going to have the link in the in the description like this is in my opinion the leadership style for max results like it absolutely is so talk to me a little bit about this concept of of co-creation where it came from and how it plays into getting the most out of your team. Yeah absolutely and you know first off you know to your point co-creation is the next big wave it's already happening and you know we ask ourselves even things with technology it's like Who's going to win in the AI space? Well, the key to this is co-creation.

We look in the past, we're like, well, efficiency was the focus. We look far enough back. Effectiveness and this big wave of co-creation is key. But to your point, it's like if we show up as leaders or entrepreneurs and it's employer-employee, right, people do not respond well to that anymore. And granted, people are still employees, don't get me wrong. If you show up as co-creator with your people and they're a co-creator, you unlock magic, right? And there are examples of this throughout time.

I think, you know, Steve Jobs is a great archetype because he was both at times. And there was, you know, he got fire from his own company. He, you know, that was a big kick in the teeth. You know, all the great leaders probably had a version of that. Yep. But the difference that it made, the difference that happened was, you know, he was driving. driving people towards objectives, oftentimes in that kind of push-pull way. Even though he was focused on innovation and a lot of things he was doing well,

but there was a shift that happened where you had kind of a rough Steve that turned to change Steve. And Ed Cabell, who worked with him, you know, who founded Pixar with Steve, worked for Steve for 26 years, the most, the longest of anybody. And we, he's a good friend, Ed is. And, you know, his observation was about this, you know, the hero's journey, that when Steve was kicked out of his company and in the wilderness, effectively, you know, he learned things at depth because he had to look internally. And there's this mirror test of he was asking yourself, what do I need to do differently?

Instead of like blaming other people, you know, it was, hey, what do I need to do differently as a leader? And the things that he learned from that, it gave him a sense of compassion and empathy that he didn't have. And what would happen is then he would show up in meetings. The statements that we usually read, those power quotes, like, I don't hire people to tell them what to do. I hire them to tell me what to do. This is change Steve, right? He'd show up in meetings.

This would be shocked to a lot of people. He'd be sitting there and he would take a position, you know, maybe a hard stance on something. And then to hear people out, they'd say something. And he'd flip 180, right? And then people in the room would say, like, what? Like, you know, because most the time, you know, CEO and leader of the company, they've got to have it right the whole time, right? They've got to stick with their guns.

But Steve would say, no, actually, that's the best idea. I'm pivoting because he's right, right? Or she's right. And I think that's a good example of co-creation. Yeah. The best companies do this. The best brands do it. I love that example.

I mean, especially because people have this image of Steve Jobs, running and rating and ratings. and pounding desks and throwing computers and screaming at people when his best, none of that was his best work. I mean, it may have been some of his early get-off-the-ground work, but Apple's escape velocity wasn't until he turned into what you just described. I mean, it's 100% the case. You know, I think the idea of a hierarchy is, you know, almost like a four-letter word these days. But the way I always approached it was you need to have a hierarchy of responsibility so that people know what their roles are and what they're responsible to get done. But then I call it a flat communication and kind of creativity format where people can bring ideas and stuff. That to me feels like the only way.

But to your point, and this is my next question, in order to do the second part, the flat. communication and creativity, you have to be willing to change your mind. You have to be able to listen to people and go, well, we were thinking about doing it this way, but what she just described, you know, maybe we need to pivot or maybe we need to delay this project or maybe we need to bump it up in a row or whatever I need to reposition based on this new information. Why do leaders struggle, especially younger, newer leaders, not necessarily in age, but to the position, why do they struggle so much with changing their mind? Is it ego?

Is it a lack of confidence? Like, why do we feel like we always need to have the answer as a leader? Yeah, well, we have this problem in our, I would say, I mean, it's broad, right? And if you look at, I mean, trends historically. You always have civilizations go through these phases of, you know, building up a sense of knowledge, right? And then we've had it, you know, in multiples, right? You have the internet, you have access to information. And we've leaned in the science of management, but also the science of functions, right, of expertise.

And so when we talk about this in the book, it's like there's an expert model, right, that we like to lead with expertise, lead with competency. But what happens in a world where information and knowledge has been democratized fully? As in, you can go to Google, you can go to chat TPT and find answers to any question. So I'm not coming to a manager or a leader or a functional leader to really, you know, find the answers to X, Y, Z or all of it. Maybe some particulars, right? And we still need vertical. We still need depth of vertical expertise that doesn't change. But that's not the future.

It's not the full answer, right? The best answer is going to be, hey, if those things are already there, and if we can get depth of perspective, what we really need to do is connect dots. Right? We need to connect dots. and connect dots across our team and build essentially perpetual motion, right? In science, they talk about it can't be done. Well, in business it can, but it's through people, right? Perpetual motion, you know, Tesla tried to create a perpetual motion machine.

Da Vinci tried. For bio accounts, they fail. We don't know. We haven't seen those. But what you can do in a team and a culture and, you know, at Apple or Pixar they call it brain trust, is you build a team that can wrestle with challenges, that can have debates, it's all healthy approach. Best ideas win, and it's a situation where you're just constantly iterating together

and building new products and services and testing those. And what's more important in today's world where everything's changing all the time? This disruption that we've experienced over the past year or two weeks, right? It's not going away. We're going to see probably over the next decade just as much, or more disruption that we've experienced. So how do you deal with that? It's less a linear approach of being that in the proverbial canoe,

just gently floating along versus like you're a raft, a river raft, right? It's shaken and everything's moving. And then to your point, then it's about being like Bruce Lee would say, right? Be like water. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny you bring up Bruce Lee. I love Bruce Lee.

There's another quote that he has that I apply to leadership all the time. time, which is the value of the cup is its emptiness. And I've shared this proverb on this show before anecdote or whatever it's called. He in his book, he shares this story that he was told back when he was in China about a Zen master, has a student approach him and wants to spend time with the Zen master. So they sit down. and they each have a cup of tea in front of them, and the student starts talking and talking and talking and talking. And finally the Zen Master stands up and grabs the teapot

and starts pouring tea into the student's cup until the cup overflows and the student jumps forward, what are you doing? And he said, and this is where Bruce Lee got his quote from that he uses, the value of the cup is the emptiness. You have to approach these situations. You may have an idea in your mind that you, I think we should go in X direction.

But when you show up to the meeting, if you're only thinking about X, there could be 10 opportunities that you don't even hear because you've already determined the answer before listening to everyone there. And it's always been shocking to me the people that want to just, well, you're only a receptionist or you're only a salesperson. What do you know about service? Or, you know, you're in the accounting department. You know, what do you know about sales?

And it's like, except maybe they do. Maybe they've bought something before and have a feeling about the way that you're handling. And to let those ideas fly away to me feels insane. You know, is, again, I always come back to this idea of ego. Is it, are we being, are leaders feeling territorial because of all the change? Like the standard best practice of what a leader does is starting to be, to be, be changed, it's more dynamic. Is it, I'm worried about losing my position and my, I'm worried about not adopt, adapting, sorry?

Like, why, how do we break this down in a way that allows someone who is, and maybe this is your framework and we can jump into that, but how do we break someone down who's sitting there going, you know, I don't know how to live in this world. If I don't make this decision, then the board's going to question me or if, if, if I'm not presented as strong and confident, then people are going to undermine me or come after my position, right? Like, I think everyone's having these thoughts all the time, but we have to get past it. So how do we start to make those moves?

Yeah, great question. Yeah, I think, first we have to be open to it. I like your analogy of the cup, right? The negative space. We've studied the best leaders that are leading that co-creative future now, and may have been doing it for years. their differences for them is they they aren't out to to flaunt their expertise right and not for ego reasons right either to your point in fact they don't look at it like ego and I think you know kind of the the Zen you know master kind of is a good analogy for this right is they're sitting back they're asking powerful questions they're listening they're taking the time because they know there's also that potential energy that needs to turn kinetic, right? And that has way more power when they unlock it in people. Because that person or those

people in the team, you know, they can start to spin the flag wheel and things can start to move that would never otherwise happen if they were relying on the expertise of one person. You know, that's the old, I said it's an old world. It's not even the currency that, that, or the, you know, the kind of electric current that exists today, right? So to believe that that's true is actually, you know, it's a problem right out of the gate, right? People are, they're going to be bumping their head against the wall, and to assume that that's still true, and things are, you know, we know they're changing extremely fast.

And that's not the best, that's not the only reason to do it. It's like, well, because we're talking about macro changes, and I think of it, like, if you're going to lead the future, you know, but there's, there are teams that have been doing this for years, and you look at, like, I mean, on simple terms, it's look at, look at bands, right? Why do some bands come and go? I mean, having one big hit, that's kind of a big deal. But most bands will have one and they're gone, right?

It's like they're five minutes of fame and it's over. This could be true of a lot of fields. But with the bands that have transcended time, right, over years or over decades, like the Beatles, the way they did it was the way we're talking about. They let their ego, you know, they pulled, it was ego off the table, building blocks on the table, and they were building all the time. And the Beatles, when they split up, they were good, but it was never the same. And you look at you, you two, they've transcended time.

And, you know, they have, you know, constantly changed, you know, and upgraded, you know, their work. And, you know, I read, you know, Bono's autobiography. And he says, this is so fascinating to me, I think, because it really gets to the heart of what we're talking about. And there are timeless truths to this principles that it's rooted in. But he said, you know, when we start out as a band, We knew that it was about births, life, death, and then rebirth. And that that was a cycle we were going to plan for, right, with intention. And I think there's something about that in terms of a product, a service, right?

Because we can get very, you know, stuck on or a way of doing things, right, that we assume that's the way. And that, yeah, I'd say that's been true. Like, their albums that, you know, have been hits, you know, with the exception of discotheque, which they made a public apology for. But everything else, you know, you're like, wow, like how are they doing this? Transcend time. Well, we call it, we also, there's a notion here, and they experience it. I think the great bands do this as well is it's shared flow, the great teams in basketball,

the great teams in any sport, the great teams in any company experience shared flow. A lot of times we talk about flow, right? You're creating art, you're playing sports, you're doing whatever you love that makes your heart sing. But what happens when that's shared with others? and it's in unison and you're creating this collective force, right, that's co-creative. You can unlock things that you've never done, right? And you couldn't possibly do as individuals. Yeah.

What are the right questions or what is a question or a type of question that when we show up as a leader and we want to start developing this culture, say we don't have it today or we're just not intentional with it? what are some of the right questions or types of questions that we could scribble down on a notepad to show up at our next meeting for to start to bring this in, to start to establish this, to start to make it part of what we do? Yeah. First is embrace the notion of questions versus answers. Lead with a question. We have a podcast called Lead with a Question. We actually inherited that principle from Ed Catmull, right, at Pixar.

He told us about his journey, and his was the typical, you know, he had answers for everything. He's a smart guy, PhD. So when he was leading these teams, everybody would come to him with questions. You fire off answers. But he realized, now it took him going on a meditation retreat for seven days, encouraged by his wife. He did this. And it changed him, right?

For two or three days, it was like, and all you could do was ask questions and listen. Those are the rules of, you know, the meditation retreat. And he said it drove crazy. He wanted to quit. right but it changed his life when he stayed in stayed into that and it also changed his leaders changed him as a leader and so leading with a question uh is a powerful way to unlock meetings right turn them or reimagine them right as brave conversations because how do you invite how do you how do you you know and having that empty space is important first but how do you fill that and how do you give people that space you know you could send a question in advance of a meeting right a week in advance uh that They do this at Pixar. And, you know, Inside Out, too, is great proof of this. They have a brain trust that are rolling.

And you watch these movies, it's like, go so deep. It's, you know, and we're talking, usually we talk about soft skills versus hard skills. And you're like, okay, you know, that debate. But actually, we're talking about deep skills, right? You build your core. And when you build your core at a deep level and you're brave, you expand into the universe with other people. Because you understand the nature, kind of human nature better. So I'd say lead with questions, and then in the conversations you're in, leading with questions.

You know, that's, it's just, it's a great way to start with, start it out. And then you said, you asked what questions specifically. Well, we have a series of golden questions. This is amazing. We've actually tested these. You can ask. So if you're wondering, like, hey, you know, what could spark something, right? If I want to change a conversation, I want to change a relationship, try these, right?

One golden question that I love. is, we tried, so we met somebody, I would connect with a guy on LinkedIn, and he was asking for career advice. I was like, okay, I'll chat with him. I posed this question, and it was simply this. You know, in the back of your mind, in the back of your heart, what's something unfulfilled that you'd still like to achieve?

And, you know, that opens people up. It kind of creates a spell, right? But it gives people space to fill that cup, you know, that shared cup. And this example, he was an engineer, a Silicon Valley company, and, you know, he went on for 45 minutes or an hour and just spilled kind of everything it was going on in his life. I didn't even know the guy to begin with, but we were diving into his world. And we created a connection. We started to build things together. You know, these are things that can be unlocked with the power of a question. Another one is, what are you most excited about right now?

right and in a meeting in a conversation a group with a team usually we tend to just play on the surface right and you know how is your weekend and he's saying that that's okay I think it's good to give people that initial space but you know diving into these kinds of things and this could also mostly be one-on-one we just create all kinds of different connections at a different level at a different depth we think of trees right how do they operate well on the surface we look at them we say well that's

I got to figure it out. There's one there. There's one there. Actually, the roots underneath are all intertwined and connected. So there's an ecosystem. And so why wouldn't we want to build that? What happens when you do, right? And what does that unlock?

Well, we've seen the results of this. And let's take brands, you know, shoe brands. We studied the comparing, you know, consumer perspective and culture. And these things are fully aligned so that, you know, when they invest, in their culture. Let's say, okay, and we just studied this, Nike, Adidas versus like A6 and Skechers, for example. They've invested in their culture differently, Nike and Adidas. In fact, you know, on average, they're about 80 to 90 percent positive their cultures. A6 and Skechers, 60 to 70 percent. Now they pose a question with our, we partnered with a team called

Bervet and, or a company called Bervet, and they asked consumers, the question, you know, which, what shoes, essentially like getting at this heartbeat of the culture, but the experience with the brand itself, you know, what shoes make you feel like you belong the most? And their answer was, you know, 80 to 90 percent Nike and Adidas, 60 to 70 percent Skechers and A6. This is fascinating because the same things that are happening internally to the companies are happening externally. Now notice the difference, though, in the impact of revenues. So the difference between that 20 to 30% is over 4x. In some cases, 10x, right? Some quarters. So it's massive. So what I just heard you say, just so I have this in my head, is that the internal enjoyment of working for a brand mirrors the consumer connection to that brand

And so the companies that have great cultures where the people feel empowered and they enjoy working and challenge and all those kind of things, they're simultaneously receiving the same kind of feedback from their consumers because it plays through. The way the customer service person answers the phone, the way the marketing person puts the language together. It all flows through in terms of the enjoyment and satisfaction and fulfillment that someone's getting from that particular brand and connection. And then that actually leads to not percentage increases, but actually multiples of increase

and revenue to the companies that are skewing towards the higher side. That's right. That's incredible. I mean, guys, if you're listening to this, think about, just think about what Chris just described. And we spend so much time crafting marketing messages and sales hooks and lead funnels and whatever your business is, whether it's D to C or service or B2B, whatever it is. Yet, if as leaders we just spend all our time creating a company,

not a ping pong table good culture, but a culture where people were actually challenged and fulfilled and felt like they were heard, that immediately applies to the product that you're putting out and probably answers most of the questions that you have about those things to begin with. That is absolutely incredible. That's incredible. Yeah, well, you might say too, like, well, that's Nike or that's Apple, that's Pixar. That could be true, except that we've also worked with smaller teams, smaller companies, right?

Startups, mid-sized smaller. And I'll give you an example. I work with a client. He's got a co-founder, got a team about 100, 150 people. And he says, you know, they're about $15 million business. You say, what's your goal? I want to go to $45 million, right, in three years and then exit. That's a decent goal.

Okay. Do your people know that? We also ask, oh, what do you mean? Well, you said that they feel like, you know, well, they're not committed. It's like, well, I, you realize like, oh, wait a minute. Okay. Yeah, I guess they do know that. So there's a connection there, right?

You're out of beach, you know, Simpia Pia Colada and Kiki West. They're seeing you, you know, mentally, right? Now, of course he's doing work, but the goal, That's his focus. Like, that's his, the North Star that he had is not their North Star. Like, they're not going to benefit like that from, you know, doing their work. Maybe they get some stock, who knows, but not a lot. So, or comparatively to him.

So the question became, well, how can you look at this differently? It's not about, okay, you can still have an exit strategy, we find. But what if you build that perpetual motion? And by the way, if you ask any of these people, they've actually been asked. So Steve, Jobs, if we had them on the show or, you know, we'd have to get them on the other but yeah it capital right they say what's your favorite product you've ever worked on right or your best product what's your best movie what's your best this right most people would pick wild toy story or iPhone right of course he's are amazing now they say the culture right why because the culture is the

perpetual motion machine that's producing those things the better ones every time so this guy we partner with him we said zoom out let's think about that relationship with your co-founder he's because at first is like hey do some team building with my team now that's like let's like let's let's Let's zoom out. What are the first principles of your future culture, right? Now I'm talking like, this is the interstellar version of your culture. Are you coming up, the DeLorean, right, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years from the future? What are people saying about it?

What do they feel? What do you observe? Oh, people love what they do. We're high growth, right? It's just unbelievable success that we're seeing in this company. Okay. Focus on that and build your brain trust where you shape these first principles. I'm talking about first principles as in.

You're going to land, do a self-landing rocket like SpaceX. It's not just what materials do you need, right? Aluminum, some other parts and this and that. It's like, no, actually the way they approach that, or Elon Musk approaches that. And the team is to say, what are the first principles of accomplishing this, right? Which is we had to deal with gravity, right? We have to deal with, there are certain materials that work and that don't. We have to deal with forces, right?

Newton's laws, all these things. So those are the first principles. And the interesting part is, Ryan, is that, and for everybody, it's like most leaders, most entrepreneurs haven't wrestled with these questions at all. And that's okay. I mean, there's upside to that. Because I think we're all asking, we are asking the question is we do, we all want to work in places that we love. Yeah. Right?

We all want to be in those experiences where you feel something different, where you feel like you're doing the work, the best work of your life, right, where your heart sings. And so that was the challenge to this leader. And we did some coaching over the course of a year. Get this. He calls me about a year later. We launched our website, Bravecore.co.co. And my friend actually pings me, my co-author, Ian Klausen, and he says, hey, have you been on the website? No.

a look on there and Tim Cook had just downloaded, he just joined, you know, download our ebook and was on our website. You know, I did some work at Apple there and, you know, he was aware apparently. But so that was cool. I get a call, right? I said that screenshot of that to this client and then he pings me and he's like, hey, can you talk right now? Yeah.

He said, hey, that culture work we did, it's been transformative because people love their work. We're high growth. it's unlike anything I've seen before. He goes, and by the way, we just had a million dollar day yesterday. So they went from $15 million to $150 million a year in one year. They went public as a company. They sold. Now he does a lot of things, you know, spends a lot of time with his family and buys houses in Hawaii.

But he has a culture that's a perpetual motion machine. So he's proud of what's there. He's still an advisor to it and just love seeing what they've built. And by the way, the people that felt uncommitted, they love being there. They don't have an nutrition problem. They have a problem of they get the best talent they just got to sort through who they want.

Yeah. Well, whenever people ask me questions about hiring and culture and stuff like that, one of the first questions I asked them is, like, would you want to work there? Would you think about what your people do? Would you want that job? Like, the way it's set up.

And, you know, sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes no, it all depends on what's going on. But like, I think we get so caught up in whatever our personal goal is or the big goal that we have that we don't slow down and go, well, I have a sales team, but they all hate working. The environment's not good. The tool's not good. I haven't trained them enough. I haven't answered their questions. We don't have Reese, whatever, whatever the things are. they're hating their job.

In my mind, they're just seven salespeople, you know, salesperson one through seven, and I'm looking at their numbers, but would you want to go sit in that seat? Like if you were a salesperson at that point in your career, would you want to sit there? And if the answer is no, like right away, we know that something's wrong.

You know, I listen to the, I like to delineate between listening to books and reading them. I hate when people say they read a book, but they really listen to the audio. I don't know why. But I was listening to the Walter Isaacson's book on Elon Musk. And particularly to the rockets, there's this question that Elon would ask that it just has always captured me. Like, especially when they were the early days of SpaceX with the rockets, they, you know, they tried to buy rockets, a Russian rocket.

And they tried, you know, they didn't have the ability to generate their own rocket at that time. so they were trying to find rockets from their places. And they immediately ran into hiccups based on what you were describing around the realities of the situation and what they were trying to achieve. And he would say, he would explain to the head of engineering what needed to happen as an outcome.

And he would get an answer often, well, it doesn't do that or it can't do that. And he would respond, what if it could? Like, explain to me what you would need, if it could do that thing. And that question, it drove so many of the innovations and tweaks and things that they then, you know,

that was actually what spurred the, when they created their own rocket plant to devout, to manufacture their own rockets. That was actually the question that created that because he kept asking what if it could, they kept telling him what they needed to actually make what he needed a reality. And they eventually just decided,

decided we're going to have to create this ourselves. So like you think about that, his initial plan, and this is exactly what you're explaining, his initial plan was to never manufacture his own rockets. That was never part of the original plan. But by asking questions, as you described, by listening to the answers, the inevitable and only solution was they had to manufacture themselves because literally it didn't exist in the world what he needed, at least all the parts. So how do you get to, as you describe your client with 15,

to 150 instead of his, you know, five-year goal of 45 or whatever it was, all the iterations changes, improvements, whatever, that were necessary to make that much of a leap forward could only happen by believing that you don't have all the answers and leading with questions. I just, guys, this is incredibly powerful stuff. So in the book, you outline these six principles. And guys, I'll have links to all this stuff in the show notes and YouTube. And Crystal obviously direct you at the end as well if you just want to go there directly. So don't feel like you're going to miss this stuff.

But I want to end our conversation around this idea of our mission. This is a place where, you know, specifically. talking to culture, talking to alignment, like you described it perfectly. The mission as seen by your client when he first came to you, right, he's working hard, but he's doing it on a beach and he's trying to get the 45. That mission is completely misaligned or maybe doesn't exist to everyone else on the team or most of the rest of the team. So we start to ask questions. We go back to first principles. What is the actual impact? implementation look like at a high level, right?

Like, how do we, how do we start, once we kind of know what we want our culture to be, how do we then start to align our people to that mission and that culture? Yeah, that's a great question. And I will say about the book, and I agree with you, like, you know, audio versus reading. We've got all options for our book. We got audio version. We've got the, you know, regular. And we have actually a lit video.

book that came out recently that has a lot of visual that just captures the essence of the book in about 30 minutes. So that's something else to be able to be able to be pretty cool. But yeah, to your question, I think, you know, we talk about, so there's two principles that come to mind, you know, from, you know, kind of the philosophy of, you know, co-creation, which is create context. Oftentimes we think about creating content. And, you know, and there's a lot of opinions about this, just produce more, more, more, more, more, more, more, more. But what we see in greatness, in the best leaders, the most co-creative leaders, the co-creators that are really shaping the future, that they're creating context. Steve Jobs said that the storyteller has the most power, right, over the future. And that's true.

And so how are you, what story are you telling? What story are you telling yourself as a leader? So part of it is being clear about that. You know, once you set the tone with leading with questions, building our first principles, but this. they're custom to your future, right? So those first principles, and you're co-creating them with others. So you build this engine of a brain trust, and this is all ensuring the key people are in the room or the Zoom room, and you keep that vehicle in place, right? The perpetual motion of that brain trust moving forward.

But the key, the biggest key in all of this, I'd say, is you live it. So you live these principles. And what starts to happen is, because culture is what, is, yes, it's big and it's what an organization, you know, as an organism, as a person, if you call it a culture, how it lives, how it breathes, what it does, you know, how it acts. But really it all starts especially, this is the power of the founder, right, an entrepreneur, is you set that tone, right? I coached Michael Dell, you know, CEO Adele, and he was transitioning from, you know,

I'd say a rough version of himself, very tactically oriented to scale, right? and being more, having a broader view of the business, a lot of things we're talking about. And that shift required a different mindset, a different approach. But he was really open, right, to those changes. And I think if you can be open to what those changes are, and you just are constant reflection, right? Steve talks about, he talks about the mirror,

we talk about the mirror test in the book. And that's key on a regular basis. But then as far as driving towards an objective, you have that North Star, and that's a drumbeat that goes constant through the organization. I think one of the biggest parts, too, is when you look at this future, the future principles of that experience, right, that what it feels like to be in the culture you want to experience, then you have to ask yourself the hard questions. What am I doing right now or today or this past week or the past few months or year that is incoagrearro with that? what are the things in my own habits or patterns of the team that aren't that don't are working towards that objective or those objectives and that's what really followed true north is you set the true north right is sticking to that you have to be willing to make the sacrifices it to shave off those things and this is one of the hardest things to do because it's painful right sometimes and it involves sometimes a sense of rebirth where you're saying you know what that rough version of me you know it's it but I think of it like it's a lot of it like it's a It's like a rough stone rolling, right?

It's rolling down the mountain. But the parts that are chipping off, you don't really need them anyway, right? Look at Michelangelo. He goes in, he gets a piece of marble. Yeah, it's like, well, you don't just, you know, you hit one time and it turns into, you know, this masterpiece. You chip off everything that's not. And so as to become essentially super leaders of the future or co-creators that are inspirational, and are the kind of quality that the leaders we're talking about.

And I'm talking about both the impact of the results you want to have, but also the innovation engine that makes it legend, right, is that you're willing to maybe ask the inverted question. To your point about, you know, the inverted question with the space in the cup is maybe it's not about what do I need to become, what are the characteristics I need to become as a leader? It's what things do I need to shape off, right? in comparison to this beautiful future of these first principles that we've imagined, what it can be, right, this culture that is truly amazing.

And that's the difference because then that becomes the bridge, right? The bridge is, wow, and people will notice, right? And even if somebody's been kind of an A-hole in the past, right? I mean, we're talking about Steve. That was brutal, right? And the stuff that Hollywood loves to talk about and all these bad boy behaviors, but that's not what got him into the future, to your point, at scale, right, with Apple or with Pixar. It was all about compassion and empathy things that by the way he learned on a personal level, right?

He got married, settled down, had kids. Not that everybody has to do that, but I think the point is that you have, there are a few key building blocks to this. One is, because we ask ourselves, what is culture, how do we influence it? Well, and you can actually see these just a high-level example in a few leaders that embody this. So one is shared wisdom that's leading with questions. That's a building block for the future. Tim Cook does this extremely well. He sits back.

He asks questions. He listens. Deep empathy, right, which is essentially compassion. And you're making others the mission. It's a selfless force. Satya Adela and Microsoft does this extremely well, right? He learned it on a personal level. His wife, a great example, their son had cerebral palsy.

He spent a lot of time with his son. and this transformed them, right? And, you know, we all have experiences that we can tap into. But we usually, we create barriers or firewalls to that to get to, from private to public. The reality is we got to break those down. And you bring those experiences and you bring, I mean, let's call it it. What is it? You know, love, right?

What's the most brave thing to do is it be compassionate? The last one is being powered by principles. And a great example of this is, you know, Jensen Wong at Vindia. It's not just the fact that they're killing it, right? and they're changing, you know, the entire industry or defining this industry of AI, and they're standing up billion-dollar businesses overnight. It's the fact that, like, the guy sits in a room

with these Stanford students, and he says, I'd love to see you guys suffer. You know, they've been through a lot of kind of entitled experiences, and it's not that he's saying that because, like, hey, I want to just see pain. And, you know, there's this notion of, like, no pain, no gain. I don't think that's the future. The future is, we all have enough pain.

through looking for it, but if you turn it into power, and his point is there's joy and suffering, because suffering will come, but you also choose those experiences, like with the Space X example, these things that are extremely hard, right, these impossible challenges. But then you just figure out, well, what are the obstacles? Rather than saying, what's a, it's impossible or it's not? What are the obstacles? And you just delete them, and you're there, right? You've just done the impossible. Yeah. And they're doing it all the time. So I think those building blocks of shared wisdom, deep empathy being powered by principles like sacrifice and like joy in suffering is it's so powerful. Right. It's contrarian paradox, but it's powerful.

The book is brave together. I couldn't recommend it enough. I think everyone who's listening, if you're not following along what Chris's work, this is the future. This is the roadmap. Like I just I I I I I. so aligned with what you're doing. I had never put it into the context that you did. And, um, dude, I'm just so happy that we've had a chance to meet and chat. And,

uh, dude, you got a, you got a fan for life in me. So I, I appreciate it. I appreciate your time. Um,

where's the best place for people to connect with you and go deeper down the rabbit hole? Thanks so much, Ryan. It's been great, this conversation and really appreciate it. Uh, yeah,

so LinkedIn's a great place to connect, uh, you know, Bravecore. We have a lot of resources there. People can download the proclamation or the letter to ego. They can download snippets from the book or articles. There's a lot of places, you know, books been highlighted.

Forbes, Fast Company. The next Big Idea Club has a good kind of take on the book. It's a shorthand version of it. That's Malcolm Gladwell and Adam Grant, you know, part of that. So, I think just, you know, love to connect. We love, you know, I love hearing people. stories and how we can be better co-creators and lead the future.

Awesome. Appreciate you, Brad. Let's go. Yeah, make a look. Make it look. Thank you for listening to the Ryan Hanley show. Be sure to subscribe and leave us a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts.

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