Finding Peak w/ Ryan Hanley - The Retirement Fallacy: Embracing Fulfillment Now | Derek Coburn

Episode Date: May 19, 2025

Spartan philosophy, built in the black-ops lab of business: https://www.findingpeak.comFinding Peak podcast: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanleyJoin our community of fearless leaders in search of unreasonable outcomes...Want to become a FEARLESS entrepreneur and leader? Go here: https://www.findingpeak.comWatch on YouTube: https://link.ryanhanley.com/youtubeMaster of the Close - Learn how to scale your sales, fast: https://link.ryanhanley.com/masterofthecloseWhat if retirement is the biggest lie you’ve been sold?In this thought-provoking episode, Derek Coburn—author of Let’s Retire Retirement—joins Ryan Hanley to dismantle the traditional retirement narrative. Instead of grinding it out for “someday,” Derek makes the case for building a life of meaning, fulfillment, and freedom now.Whether you're an entrepreneur, executive, or just someone tired of living for the weekend, this conversation will challenge everything you thought you knew about success, time, and what it means to truly live.Pre-Order Let's Retire Retirement: https://amzn.to/45gFUtyWhat You’ll Learn:Why the retirement dream is outdated (and dangerous)How to design a fulfilling life without waiting until 65The hidden cost of deferring joyPractical steps to integrate passion, purpose, and profit todayThis isn’t about escaping work—it’s about upgrading life.Recommended Tools for GrowthOpusClip: #1 AI video clipping and editing tool: https://link.ryanhanley.com/opusRiverside: HD Podcast & Video Software | Free Recording & Editing: https://link.ryanhanley.com/riversideShortform - The World's Best Book Summaries: https://link.ryanhanley.com/shortformTaplio • Grow Your Personal Brand On LinkedIn: https://link.ryanhanley.com/taplioKit: Email-First Operating System for Creators (formerly ConvertKit): https://link.ryanhanley.com/kit--Recommended Tools for GrowthOpusClip: #1 AI video clipping and editing tool: https://link.ryanhanley.com/opusRiverside: HD Podcast & Video Software | Free Recording & Editing: https://link.ryanhanley.com/riversideWhisperFlow: Never waste time typing on your keyboard again: https://link.ryanhanley.com/whisperflowCaptionsApp: One app for all your social media video creation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/captionsappGoHighLevel: It's time to take your business workflow to the Next Level: https://link.ryanhanley.com/gohighlevelPerspective.co: The #1 funnel builder for lead generation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/perspective--Episodes You Might Enjoy:From $2 Million Loss to World-Class Entrepreneur: https://lnk.to/delkFrom One Man Shop to $200M in Revenue: https://lnk.to/tommymelloIs Psilocybin the Gateway to Self-Mastery? https://lnk.to/80upZ9This show is part of the Unplugged Studios Network — the infrastructure layer for serious creators. 👉 Learn more at https://unpluggedstudios.fm.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Happy holidays. Want to give your host a gift? Consider subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show this holiday season. It really helps the show grow. From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday. So I got a question for you. Hit me. And we can talk later if you don't have time.

So do you think this is relative to your TED Talk, what you've been going through in your life, what I've been going through in my life in a similar way, this is like an existential question that I've been pondering for a while. Do you think it is possible to play a different game than the game that most people are playing without winning the primary game first? We had money in the bank. We had like time. We had, you know, things that we had on our side that allowed us to sort of like go through all that shit to emerge on the other side, like wanting to do something different.

that I don't know that like a single dad with a nine to six job probably couldn't have done it the way that I did it. Yeah, I think, so I think there's two sides of that. So one, I have both had the money and not had the money at different times. Yep. Right. So I felt it both ways. Here's where I kind of come out on this. I honestly don't know if you can do it the way everyone does it and truly be successful and happy anymore.

I think even the people that choose that path, I don't think they're happy with that. path. I think they've just made a compromise to find harmony in their life in maybe another place, right? Like, I really love doing 100 mile runs and being at my kids sports games. So I'm going to work this, you know, nine to five type job that, you know, maybe I can do well, but don't particularly care for. Um, but it allows me to do the other things that I have in my life. I think, I think if you, if you consciously make that decision and that was a big part of my, of where the TED talk came from, if that's a conscious decision, more power to you. Yeah. I think where people really, and I think this is where a lot of people are finding themselves today is they didn't consciously make that decision.

Right. Now they're flailing and searching and grasping and chasing every $27 faceless YouTube video course they can buy to try to find something that's fulfilling in their life. Or they turn to drugs or alcohol or sex or they, you know, whatever, whatever other destructive thing they can do. because they weren't consciously making decisions. They were following a path that they thought they were supposed to follow. That being said, I think you have to find your way of doing things, and it's the only way to do it. I think if you've already made it, it's substantially easier because of the transfer that you get, the transfer expertise.

So if you are very successful at one thing, and then you pick a second thing that you want to be very successful at, a lot of the trust, respect that you get in the other will be transferred over. and that makes it a lot easier to jump. However, I do think that if you're doing something unique and you give yourself an appropriate time frame to be successful, I think you can do it on the side. I absolutely think you can.

I think what people miss on that is, I think where people miss is they set, they set expectations like it's the only thing they're doing. They have plenty of cash in the bank to ride through the downtimes. When, you know, that person, it may only take them six months to a year to get where they want to be. The person who's doing it as a side hustle or isn't capitalized, it might take you four years or five years to get there and you need to be okay with that.

Yeah. In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. One, I love the way that you're approaching this topic. Like, I think it's fucking incredible. Thanks, ma'am. I think this is a topic that no one is talking about, yet everyone is dealing with, a la the conversation we just had in the green room. Yep.

Like, there are, I think this is a real existential problem. And, like, you know, I know part of the catalyst for writing this book was your dad and, and the issues that he went through, the health stuff that he went through. But, like, where did this come from in your own life? Like, was this something you were dealing with and you felt like you had to get through this and then you wanted to write it or are you dealing it with it right now? Like, like, what in your life was like, this is something I got to put the work in necessary to write a book about?

You know, I started writing the book. I had the idea to write the book in 20. And that sort of just stemmed from, like, I was a, I've been a financial advisor for almost 27 years. I sold my practice to a private equity company in 2019, had an earn out, have my clients, handful of clients I've been working with for a long time that I want to continue to work with. But I'm not really looking to grow my practice anymore. And when I started writing the book, that, none of that was on the table. And I was like, I want to write a book as a way to attract more clients for my practice.

and it was going to be written for people that have like, you know, minimal, minimal investable assets of, of, you know, $5 million, um, yeah,

and more. And, and then I was approached out of nowhere about selling the practice. Then COVID happened and my father got sick in the meantime. And because I got some money and I got some space and I got to, you know, really kind of take a step back and look at my life. I was like,

oh, I don't need more clients. I don't want more clients. I get to come back. to this book and focus on writing it for a broader audience in a way that will hopefully be helpful to a lot more people than if I would have just plugged along and tried to write a book that was going to be a fancy business card to grow my practice. Yeah. But I was having these conversations with clients since like 2005, 2010. I always thought it was very interesting that like when people

meet with a financial advisor, financial advisors don't say do you want to retire. They say, what age do you want to retire. We're automatically opted into this thing. And most people say, I don't really know. And they say, well, why don't we just go with 65? Because that's what everyone else picks. And people say, sure. And then they get this number that feels really big and unattainable. It stresses them out. It causes them to skip workouts and skip family dinners and have less sleep and really take them away from where they want to be. And what we're seeing is that a lot of people are getting there. They're finding this retirement thing is not what they were promised it would be. They don't feel the way they thought they were going to feel, and they're going back to work. And so I'm just trying

to get the attention of people well before this point to help them realize that as long as you don't hate what you do, if you can find some work that you enjoy doing, ideally, you're going to do it longer than you think. And because of that, you don't have to save as much, which means you now have more money and more time that you get to spend right now on the people and things that are most important to you. Yeah, I was really intrigued by the research in the book around like where retirement came from and how new of a concept this actually is. Like, you know, like the first retirement fund started,

I think in your book you say 1883 with American Express or something like that. Like, it's, I mean, that's not, that's 140 years ago, 150 years ago. Like, that's not that long ago that retirement wasn't even a concept, wasn't even something that we thought about. And now all of a sudden it's like this goal that we're shooting for. Now, one of the things that I think is interesting

is I have never even contemplated. the idea of retiring. Like I honestly can't even imagine a day where I'm not doing something that is work, right? It might not be the work I'm doing today. It might be something different. But the idea of just like one day turning the computer off and grabbing my mug and my pictures off my desk and like walking out the door and never coming back and just I can't like, I can't even imagine like what that life would look like.

But I think also today, and this is why I think this is so intriguing, is we've been in a very inflationary state the last five plus years. So the idea, too, that you're going to be able to get to a retirement age and know what... The holidays are here, and that means it's the most wonderful time of the year to save with Rackaton. Use Racketon to stack cash back from your favorite stores on top of holiday sales. That's savings on savings. With Racketon, you can get cashback on gifts for everyone on your list, from toys for the kids to kitchen gear for the person who loves to cook,

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That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N. Terms and conditions apply. What that looks like, like what you actually need and that you're like, how do you even plan for that because of how crazy inflation has been? It used to be like, what, three, four percent, and, you know, there was some calculation. But, you know, when you're looking at years of 12, 15 percent inflation, I mean, that's, has to mess everything up. Yeah, you know, one of my favorite books of all time is called Stumbling on Happiness by a Harvard professor named Daniel Gilbert. And this came out 15 years ago, and I don't think he's written anything else since. But essentially what he's saying is that

we all just do a terrible job of predicting what our future selves are going to want. And if you think about the assumptions that go into planning for retirement, that everything you just mentioned about inflation is true. And that's one component. We also have to accurately predict. We also have to accurately predict what the tax rates are going to be every single year for the next 25 years. What's your pre-retirement rate of return is going to be in your portfolio each year probably, what your post-retirement average rate return is going to be. Among other things, including what year are you going to die? What year is your spouse going to die if you're married?

Are your parents in good financial shape and good health? All of these things that we have, it's akin to like picking a 10-game parlay on Fandle, right? And yet people are walking around living their lives on a daily basis. Like they're going to nail it and they're making all these choices about how to spend their money and how to spend their time based on all of these things coming true. And we're going to be wrong about every single one of them. So the one thing that I do for myself is I have a country club membership. I like golf. It's almost like I'm not a big meditator.

I've just never, I can't sit still for that long. And I just don't. I mean, I get the value of it. I've done it and I feel better afterwards, but it's just, I found that I'm just not going to slow down and do it. However, going out and hitting a bucket of balls for 45 minutes and just that motion over and over again, I come away with a very similar feeling. I'm a little active and it really works for me and whatever. But there's this part of me that is like, like, dude, do you deserve, do you deserve to do that? And I think one of the, what you're really addressing

is how to find harmony in our life today and enjoying what we have in front of us today, as well as setting ourselves up and finding that. So like when you're talking to someone about this concept, how do you start that conversation with them? Because there's a lot of people, I think, that have my mindset, which is like, you know, that's something I'll, I don't deserve that until I've made it. Or I don't deserve that until I hit a certain age. Or I don't deserve that until my kids hit a certain age.

whatever, and we kind of push our life out into this future, as you said, that we have almost no ability to predict. Yeah, you know, I think, I always like to start from the money angle, because I think people just really do not understand how much flexibility this frees up for them in the short term. There are so many people walking around that know deep down that they're not going to stop retiring. And there's even people or stop working. And there's even some people that know that, consciously that they're never going to stop working, but they're still kind of living their lives based off the idea that they're going to have this traditional retirement, that they need to save a certain amount of money. Like when they meet with their financial advisor every year,

they're not saying, I'm going to work forever. They're just going along with the idea that they have to save this amount of money. So I share a story about a hypothetical guy named Tony in my book, and I say Tony is 45 years old. He makes $150,000 a year, and he has $150,000 saved up for retirement. And if Tony wants to retire at 65, using all of the basic assumptions in our industry, 3% inflation, 7% return on his assets until retirement, 6% after, and have him passing away at 95, if he wants to stop at 65, he has to save $2,400 a month in order to get there, which is about 20% of what he's making, which is a non-starter for most people. If Tony says, I'm going to work until him 75 instead of 65, that number goes.

from $2,400 a month down to $110 per month. It goes down by 96%. If Tony says he'll work until he's 75 more years, which is, I think, likely to happen based on the number of people that we see reentering the workforce after they retire, the number goes down to $600. It goes down by 75%. So once I share that with people and they're like, oh, yeah, like I've got this extra time and money, I can think about how I'm going to spend it differently. They feel better going to to the driving range. They feel better taking the vacation. When I first start working with clients, hardly anyone comes in my office with their hand raised saying, I know I don't want to retire. So I'll humor them. I'll ask them questions that they are expecting to be asked. Like, what are you going to do

in retirement? I'm going to travel the world with my spouse. And I say, great, when was the last time you two went out on a date together? And, you know, nine times out of ten, they just sort of look at each other and they don't really know how to answer that question. Or someone will say, I'm going to play golf. Five days a week. Okay, but you haven't been to the gym in four years and you just had your hip or place. So when is this going to happen? And I think what you probably see is the more time that we make for these things now, the more likely it is we're going to be able to continue to do them. So you go and hit golf balls. That's less time for you to spend on your business, but you come back to your business in a better frame of mind with more clarity, with less stress. You're being more productive there. And now you're also more likely to continue your golf habit. well, you know, into your older age. It's, it's so funny, dude, because when you're in your 20s and 30s, like, and probably your 30s is where you start to learn the lesson if you learn it, is like you're just, you're just go, go, go, 24-7.

I do think there's seasons in your life where you need to press, right? For sure. You need to press beyond what most people are doing. However, what I've found is that once you, and I think some of that is searching for your zone is genius, but once you figure out what your zone of genius is, and you can start to monetize that, whether it's in a leadership position in a company, starting a company, you know, whatever,

whatever your place is, and you can make some decent income, I've actually found at this point in my career, even though I'm capable of 8, 10, and when I need more hours in a day, I found that six hours is, like if I work more than six hours in a day, any of the hours past six hours of work,

it's like bullshit, you know, my brain's not functioning. I'm not on top of my game. I'm not super creative. Maybe I can answer some emails, but I'm not getting anything done. And anything that I do create in that time is usually something I'm then going to have to rework or I'm not super proud of to begin with.

And that's a really tough. It's really tough to like to downshift. It feels like a downshift, but it's really not. Does that make sense? And I'm interested in your take on this. Like, I would rather at this point in my career give six hours that I need,

know is a plus work and maybe four is a plus and the rest is a minus b plus work but like then then eight hours of c plus work or 10 hours of c plus work which is i think what most people convince they convince themselves they need to do it even though they're not giving their best effort and one do you agree with this concept two have you found it and three like how do you start to reframe your mindset if you are that person that's still trying to grind and still burning yourself out and still not able to find those places that you can get a little bit of your life back. Yeah, you know, I think that the last chapter in my book is called investing in you. And I essentially say, hopefully I've made a case for why you're going to be working longer.

And if you agree, that means you now have this extra time and money that you get to spend on other things. And, you know, some of the things I mentioned there are taking better care of yourself. And I think that in our society, we overemphasize the long-term benefits of things like sleep and diet and exercise. And we under-emphasize the significance and the impact of these things in the short term. So, yes, like sleeping well is very good for you in terms of how you're going to feel 20 years from now. But it's also extremely good for you in terms of how you're going to feel 20 hours from now. And I think that the best person for any of us to be getting advice from about anything is the most. optimized version of us. And so many of us are, are not close to that at all. So we feel like we have to

work all these extra hours to overcompensate for the fact that we're tired. We have brain fog. We're stressed out. We have anxiety. We're not thinking clearly. And if we were to take a step back and say, you know what, like I'm going to make sure I sleep more. The quality of my sleep is going to be better. I'm going to make sure that I'm eating a gram of protein per pound of body weight. And I'm going to make sure that I'm getting exercise every single day. Yes, it means I have less time that I can work in my business. But now this is a different version of me, a version of me that I'm really not entirely familiar with, that maybe I should give that version of me a shot to be even more productive and to get more things done and create better work done in a shorter amount of time.

You know, it's funny. We talked a little bit in the green room. And I've mentioned on the show in the past that like 2024 was a was an interesting year for me personally and I was chasing a lot of rabbits trying to find you know cheap ways to feel good and and all that kind of stuff and like it was like one day over the summer you know I'm probably like four or five months into this maybe dark period of of whatever I like woke up one day and I didn't feel good because I hadn't slept well and whatever and I literally said like I'm trying to feel good like that's the goal I want to feel good. I want to feel like I have energy.

I want to feel good. And instead of just doing the things that will make me feel good, you know, as simply as eat reasonably healthy, go to the gym four or five times a week and get a decent amount of sleep, I'm not doing any of those things and then masking the shitty feeling with some beers or smoking a joint or whatever. And you're like, it just hit me.

I'm like, how fucking stupid am I? Like, I know the thing, like these things make me feel good all the time. These other things over here are these cheap little, you know, three, four hour hits of feeling good. Yet we always, we always seem to move to the cheap easy. Like, like, how, like, and, you know, and I'm sure you've had your different struggles with different things at different times, like everyone has. Like, how do you find we pull ourselves back to, how do we convince ourselves to just feel good versus chasing the feel good? with some sort of addiction or, you know, whatever. You know, for me, you know, I caught my, I too went through a bit of a period.

You know, I'm probably oversimplifying it by calling it a midlife crisis, but that's probably what it was for me for about a year and a half. And I kind of shook up the snow globe. Marriage, you know, got rough for the first time, you know, in, you know, almost 20 years. I was, you know, becoming more short-tempered. I realized that I found myself saying a lot of. of things like I need to have sex with my wife in order to be the best version of me. I need to have a glass of wine or a gummy every single night in order to relax. I need to have nicotine

in order to focus. I need all of these things to feel a certain way. And by saying that, I'm also saying that I can't feel those things unless I use these methods to get there. And so I decided, and I don't recommend this, but I decided to sort of quit all of them cold turkey. not the sex part of my wife, but worked on the relationship there, but like everything else, like, quit cold turkey. And I, and, and, um, and it became really difficult, really hard, you know, for several months. But I started a meditation practice because, like, you had never worked for me. And it finally clicked. I started using like Joe Dispenz's meditations and those work really well for me. Um, and I just was able to think about, you know, patterns and why, why was I constantly needing

something to feel a certain way? And one of the things that emerged for me that I don't think, would have emerged if I was constantly just feeding into my uncomfortable feelings with coping mechanisms. As I just thought back to when I was younger, man, you know, I thought back to, and I know you shared some of this in your story and your TED talk, but when I was in seventh grade, you know, I had an entire classroom of kids chanting, who do we hate, we hate Derek. And, you know, I had teachers telling me that I wasn't going to be successful because I wasn't getting good grades. And I had girls shooting me down and telling me that, like, I was never going to have a girlfriend. and I just realized observing this energy in me that my entire life became one big giant, like, you don't think I can do something? Watch me.

And I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater because that energy got me a lot of, like, amazing things. Like, I really do have, I'm married to an incredible woman. Our relationship is in an amazing place. Right now I've got great kids. I have more friends than most adults I know. But I was still, like, feel. feeling that energy. And it was still like, it was almost like every day I was waking up and my body

was like, who are we going to start something with today? Because in order to prove someone wrong, you need an adversary. And so I've been like working and still am working to unwind that a little bit so that I can show up and create from, not from a place of like wanting to get even with somebody, but from a place of like just creating because it's what I want to do on my terms and for my reasons. Yeah, that's really interesting. So I struggle with that same thing because, you know, as you said, told my story in the TED Talk and other places. And like, I have very similar, right? I was the the poor kid from the country. Actually, when I was younger, I was like chubby and all this kind of stuff. So like my two nicknames coming into high school were Nassau, which is literally the town

that I grew up in as a derogatory term. So like they use it as a derogatory term against me. And fat boy. Those are my two nicknames coming into high school right now. Thank God that my freshman year, I grew six inches and all of a sudden I wasn't fat anymore because that solved some of the problems. Yep. But yeah. And then, you know, just my career and different things and like you develop this chip. And once that chip sits on your shoulder, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what the success is. If you don't, as you said, like start to deal with it and start to understand where it's

coming from, it's always there. Like you have a big win and you feel great for like 30 seconds. and all of a sudden you're like, okay, who am I going to conquer now? Like, I need to go conquer something else, someone else. I need to prove someone else wrong. And I struggle with that even today because I just, I find it to be such powerful fuel. It's like jet fuel.

Yeah. But I think, you know, and the way I've started to deal with it is like maybe, and I don't know this for sure. Like I'm almost, I'll be super interested in your take, having, knowing that you're kind of dealing with the same stuff is like, I've kind of said like, okay, maybe this is just part of who I am for whatever reason, right? Maybe it's so entrenched in my personality that I'm simply not going to be able to dig this out. So how do I take it and turn it from a negative into a positive?

And the way I've been working through that here at 44 has been just simply competing against myself. How do I be a better version of myself? And the way that that has been positive for me has been, sometimes that's being a little more understanding and less reactive to some crazy shit my kids do, or not taking some hater online who, you know. All right, people. Serious question time. Did you know that driving high is considered driving under the influence?

That's right. Driving under the influence of marijuana is against the law in every state. That means even in states where marijuana is legal. That means driving high could get you a DUI. And if you think law enforcement officers can't. tell when you're driving high, well, you're wrong. If you're high, they can tell. Your friends can tell. Your coworkers can tell. Even your parents can tell. Everyone can tell. So what makes you think that law enforcement officers don't know when you're driving high? You'd be wrong. They can tell too. Driving under

the influence of marijuana can slow your response time and change how you perceive time and speed. So even if you think you're fine to drive when you're high, you're not. Because the bottom line is, If you feel different, you drive different, and driving high is driving under the influence. So remember, drive high, get a DUI, paid for by NHTSA. Comes after me for something that someone said on the podcast or whatever and getting emotional about it and just letting it roll because it's more about my own performance, right? And I don't, as long as I feel good about it. So I mean, like, do you think you can, you feel like you're going to be able to deal with that

and get rid of it? Or is it a tool that you use? and when you need it, you just pull it out of your tool belt, use that fuel for a bit and then you put it back in. Great question. So I think, look, I will say that I now feel just incredibly liberated, knowing that I don't really need anything from anybody or any substance in order to feel the way that I want to feel.

Like I'm going on walks with my family some nights and, you know, completely sober. And it feels like I'm on drugs. I mean, it just feels like really good. And again, when I, for me, when I was, when I needed wine or weed or nicotine or these other things in order to feel a certain way, I was basically saying I couldn't feel that way without them. So being able to start feeling these things now has been really empowering. Look, I, there's a, there's a parable. There's a story in the Bible, and I'm not going to get religious right now, but I will share this story because it's been really helpful to me. It's called The Parable of the Sower.

And essentially, it's about a seed that falls down from the sky. the seed is synonymous with connection to God. And feel free to call this connection to the highest version of you. There's four different examples of a seed falling from the sky. And in three of the four examples, it lands in the wrong place. It doesn't have the ideal situations to grow and it basically does nothing. One out of four times, it lands in fertile soil and produces 100-fold is exactly what it says. 100-fold what was intended.

So I just, I kind of got in this rhythm where I said a year, year and a half ago, if I want to connect with God, with source, with the highest version of me, I want to become very good at like the soil optimization game. I want to be very good at taking great care of myself. I want to sleep well. I want to eat well. I want to feel well. I want to see how how this version is guided. And look, man, this is a big part of the way this book came to be. Like this book really feels like I was channeling something from something.

much bigger than me. It wasn't difficult to produce once I got back into it. It flowed really easily. And look, I'm resisting goals. My publisher's upset about this, but I'm resisting goals in terms of number of books sold. I'm resisting goals in terms of number of speaking events that I do, because I just want to be open to where this thing could go. And my main goals are to show up when my book gets launched. I want to be in the best shape I've ever been in. The relationships that I have with my kids and my wife, my friends and God to be in a better place than they've ever been in. And I just keep working on making sure that this is as optimized as possible. And I'm having really good results so far.

So I'm doubling down and I'm going to see where this, you know, how far I can take it. Yeah, I was listening to Tucker Carlson's podcast the other day. I like, I like Tucker. He can be bad shit crazy, but I really like him. And he was talking about, he was talking about his faith. and he said, you know, basically, whether you believe in God or not, your soul is seeking God, right? It is, right?

And we find it in different ways. We can find it in, you know, we can pretend that we, you know, that we're secular. But ultimately, when you look into how someone lives their lives, there's a religion in their life, like something in their life becomes a religion. We always have a religion somewhere, whether we call God or not. I call it God. I'm Christian and firm believer. And what I've, my point in saying all that is what's been very interesting.

interesting to me as I've gotten older and I've started to focus more on having a relationship of God, the more consistent that relationship is, the more at peace and in tune I found my life to be. And that is not revolutionary information. You know, that's been said a million, probably a hundred million times over the course of, you know, since Jesus. But it is 100% true that like I find myself the most at peace when I am properly aligned with things that I consider bigger than myself, if that makes sense. Oh, yeah. When it's about me, when the thing is, I'm not making enough money,

I don't have the position, not enough people are downloading my podcast, or whatever stupid thing I'm, you know, is about me. I, I, my body starts craving sugar. It starts craving alcohol or whatever escape I can find. And when it's about, you know, when it's about God, when it's about my community, when it's about, you know, taking responsibility for the people, in my company and making sure they're taking care of.

And all of a sudden, it's like miraculously, you don't need those things. Like your body just doesn't literally doesn't crave them. Yep. And, you know, we haven't gone through these journeys. Like, one, have you found that? And two, how do you cultivate that in your life? It seems like you might be going through it right now.

Yeah, so look, it's funny you mention this because the third chapter of my book is called happiness versus meaning. And I break down a lot of, and I share a lot of research around people that are, that are pursuing happiness versus people who are pursuing meaning as it relates to retirement, but it applies in all areas of life. And so essentially there was some research done

where they took a lot of people, half of them said, I'm prioritizing personal happiness. The other 50% said, I'm prioritizing purpose and meaning and contribution beyond myself. And what they found was the people, that prioritized happiness had a reaction in their body. Their body's response was the same response that a body has when it's dealing with chronic adversity, like the loss of a loved one,

the loss of a job. Inflammation markers went through the roof. Immunity went down. These people were much more likely to get sick and dies. This is why you hear a lot of stories about people when they retire. Like they died two or three years later. Like they lose their purpose. And the people that that prioritized purpose. Like they're here for something bigger than just themselves, bigger than like sitting on a beach and drinking fruity alcoholic beverages every single day, which I'm sure it can be great for like a week or two. But at some point, I don't think that anyone is going to get lasting happiness from that.

Their inflammation was was low. Their immunity was high. Like they, they were not here for the party. They were here to really continue to make a difference. And so ironically enough, you know, pursuing. Doing happiness is a really bad way to achieve happiness. And if you want to be happy, the data shows us like, we just need to keep focusing on these things that go beyond us and our personal gain.

And that is what's going to unlock, you know, feeling of bliss and happiness in our own lives. Dude, so this is so wild that you're saying this. So during the period that I've mentioned this to start, I don't mean to keep coming back to this, but it happened in the last year. So it's, you know, and I've worked my way out of it. So a lot of these things are like really clear in my mind.

During that time period, when I'm, you know, just felt very lost, you know, rudderless, like it was the first time of my life. I didn't know the next thing that I wanted to do. Like I didn't know, okay, I've always kind of known how I want to contribute to whatever I wanted to do. And I literally don't know right now, right? I, purposeless at that moment. Maybe outside of making sure my kids were happy.

Yep. You know, an in-go-a-place. I had a, I had this, I'll call it a testosterone scare. Like I, it's February of 2024. And it's, you know, I'm used to New York winters. I'm used to, you know, vitamin D deficiency. I'm used to the winter blues that happens up here, which is a very real thing.

You know, in Albany, New York, where I live, we see 66 days of full sun a year. That's it, 66 days. So, like, I'm used to what that feels like and how to navigate that. And, dude, it was like I hit a brick, wall. I couldn't get out of bed, no libido, no energy, did not want to go to the gym, nothing. Like, and I'm, I'm a seven day a week guy when I'm, when I'm dialed in, like, you know, in terms of working out. So I take this at-home testosterone test through one of the companies that, uh, actually Huberman recommends.

And, uh, I find my testosterone is in the seventh percentile of men, the seventh. Basically, I'm at zero. And, and, like, so I call my doctor and I'm like, you know, at this point I'm 43. I'm like, I'm 43 years old, like pretty thick guy. Like, I'm not, like, what the, what is going on? Yeah. And so we start talking and basically she explains that like, and this is to your point about retirement, like, she's like, when your body feels like you're done contributing,

it essentially just starts shutting down. Like, it's just like, okay, you're done. contributing, you know what I mean? Like you've hit your usefulness to society, like start shutting down. Yep. And it like now, you know, I took some, I took, you know, some meds or whatever. I got myself back in track and now I'm fine. But like, it was wild that in this moment where I felt no purpose, no meaning, felt rudderless, didn't have energy, that my body was just like, he must be done. You know, we'll just stop doing the things that makes you like a man. and it makes you know in this case.

Yep. And I honestly believe, and this is another reason why I would never retire, is like, I do honestly believe that your body is listening to you. And as long as you have purpose, have meaning, have a reason to keep showing up, keep getting up in the morning that drives you, your body will do absolutely everything it can to make sure that you continue to show up. But the moment you like downshift into, hey, I'm just going to coast. Your body's like, we don't really need to keep going.

we're good. And I have zero like evidence beyond, actually most of the figures in your book are probably right there. But like, I believe that's a real thing. And I think we have to be very cognizant of that, that we don't expect, hey, I'm going to hit 62 and live for another 20 years in bliss not working and being able to do all these things I want. Because as you say in your book, the year that when the retirement age was set at 62, the lifespan of a male was only seven more years. Yep. That's it. Seven more,

you'd seven years post retirement. It was the average life expected. And you were getting a third of your income from Social Security, a third of your income from pension plans, which don't really exist anymore. And you had to, you had to supplement a third of your income for like six years. That's all you needed.

Like this was, we were never meant to come here to do something that we don't enjoy doing for 30 years to earn the right to sit around and do nothing at all after that for another 30 years. Yeah. So, you know, how do we, how do we start to really? position this like tactically like if I'm sitting here and I'm going I'm either that hand wringing

grinder that can't stop or I do have this false sense of this utopian life that I'm going to live when I hit a number like what are some of the very maybe like first tactical things even if it's just self-awareness or an exercise or something that I can do to start to go what do I really want like when you when you sit down like how do I determine like what is it that I really want to do do I really want to retire? Like how do I work through that mentally to start making these decisions? Yeah, look, I want to another good question. I want to double down, and I have something else to add to, but I want to double down on the

whole, like, look, if you're tired, if you haven't been working out, if you're not eating well, if there's just a lot of stress in your life, like I don't think that you should be calling upon this current version of yourself to be making important long-term decisions about the future of the type of work that you're going to do and where you're going to live or who you're going to spend your time with. So I would really encourage people to spend, you know, a couple weeks. I mean, I think that's all it takes to really make a big difference of committing to getting good sleep and eating well and let that version of you guide you in terms of how do I want to come at this? How do I want to approach it? But look, ultimately,

I would say that if you can find some work to do that is a big P purpose, that's great. And for some of us, we get to keep finding things to focus on and contribute and the work that we do to earn a living. And it lights us up and it's how we want to spend our time. I don't think that like, I don't think everyone needs that. I think that what everyone needs is to not be doing something that sucks their soul that they don't hate doing. But if you can find something, like I share a story about my brother-in-law has a friend who's got a job at a software company and he likes to work fine. Like he thinks it's pretty good. and he likes his coworkers, he thinks that they're cool people.

They have an incredible vacation policy that allows him to see fish in concert 30 times a year, right? So going to these concerts is his passion, and he found work that allows him to do that, right? And now he might not continue to do what he's doing now, but he'll probably do something else as he gets older that will allow him to continue to spend his time and his energy and his efforts on things that light him up. I know people that their passion is they want to plan and organize the amazing two trips that all the friends take every single year or all the big parties in the neighborhood. And look, if you can find work that allows you to live out your passion in some other area, that's great. But ultimately, there's going to be a lot of flexibility here. I think by the year 27, depending on where you get your information, over 45% of the workers in the United States are going to be freelancers.

there's going to be a lot of companies. If you have talents, if you have skills and you're willing to offer them, they're going to let you do it on your terms. So if you say, look, I want to work four days a week, but I need all Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I don't want to work summers. I'm going to take a two-year sabbatical and then come back at some point. Like, you're going to have these opportunities.

And during that time away, during that time off, you know, there's master classes, there's Udeme, there's all these other places, courses that you can go and learn new skills and learn different skills. And I think that there's so many jobs like that are going to exist because of AI in 10, 15, 20 years that don't exist now. Like I heard Gary Vee the other day saying, and I agree, he's like, there's going to be a business in five or 10 years where people will pay you to go and walks with them. Like you have a certain topic of interest that they share. They want to hear your opinion on it. And they're going to pay you 20 bucks to walk with them. Yeah. I agree. I really like,

I really like where you started to about spend some time and get your mind right before you make these long-term decisions. I think that's a really important point. I had a young guy listening to the show to randomly text me the other day. I don't even know how he got my phone number, but not that I cared. And he's like, man, I'm struggling. I've been procrastinating. I'm ruminating on all these dark ideas. And I'm not sure what I want to do in my life, whatever.

And he's like in his mid-20s. And part of me was like, bro, you're a baby. like just keep going like you got a long way before you have to worry about some of these things like just keep just keep going i i didn't go to that route he was in a place where i wanted to be very positive so i'm just kind of like asking questions like hey you drinking or smoking no i'm like he's i'm like you know what's going on with your sleep he's like i can't sleep blah blah blah and i said well are you working out and he's like no i go zero workouts he goes no workouts i go here's what i want you to do do not text me again for a month.

Go work out four to five times a week for a month. And then I want you to text me. I guarantee the tone of your text will be different. Yeah. And that was a little over a month ago. And he texted me two days ago and was like, dude, I still don't know what I want to do, but I'm sleeping.

I'm feeling better. I'm not procrastinated on shit anymore. Like, and it's sometimes it's just, get yourself in a, in a position, like, just do a few of the right things. Like, it's, you don't, you can eat, you can eat fries. Just eat reasonably well the rest of the week. You know what I mean? Like, it's not, I feel like we, we've gotten into this black or white society where

if I'm going to eat healthy, I have to be organic and, you know, vegetables and meat only. And if I'm going to work out, I got to go seven days a week and have a program. And it's like, eh, it, just do what, start with. few things like start with just something small that gets you in the right direction and that momentum will will take you there and then to your point then you once you're feeling a little better you can kind of pick your head up and look around and go okay what do i want to do and i think this is something that i don't think we talk about enough is like the seasons of life right like when you're in your 20s just go do shit try shit break shit get fired start a company you know

you know, go do, like try different places in the country, whatever, whatever your life is, but like, like bang into things and see how they feel in your 20s. Like I think sometimes people get so hung up on if I don't do my 20s right, then I'm screwed. And it's like, I'll tell you firsthand, I wasted my 20s. I had no idea what I wanted to do. Yeah, I had jobs, but none of them were productive. None of them really set my course. I wasn't fulfilled by any of them.

It wasn't until my 30s until I started to find those things. And now I find myself in a, I'm in a very good place, work for a great. company, you know, I get to talk to amazing people like you. I'm coming down to your, to your book launch in a few weeks. Like, you know, give yourself time and, and just incrementally grow instead of this like, if I don't do this now, I'm screwed. And then that puts you in a mindset of, I'm screwed. So now I'm not going to do anything. And then all of a sudden, you find yourself 50 pounds overweight, stuff and chips in your face while you're ripping down heaters and your life sucks. You know, you haven't been laid in two years. Yeah, you know, it's

interesting. And we're thinking in our current situation, the way that we're currently showing up that these things are going to be really difficult. And at first they are. But like for sleep, for example, I wake up now most mornings. And the way I feel, I didn't know that feeling was on the menu a couple years ago. I didn't know it was possible to feel that good. And so for me, like, avoiding a glass of wine or two at night now, it's less about, oh, I know this is really bad for me. And it's It's more about I sort of traded one addiction for another. Like, I'm more addicted to waking up and feeling amazing in the morning than I am from the feeling I'll get from having a glass or two of wine. Even, like, I'll show my age a little bit now.

I'm 48. I went out last night with my family to a concert. It's 11 o'clock a night, and there's a great pizza joint right by the 930 Club in Washington, D.C., and they all wanted pizza. And, like, I love the pizza, and it's really good. but I also knew that I have like this conversation with you today. I've got a few other things that I need to do. And so it was, it was just my body, my mind, my spirit, my soul. They were helping me in the moment to make it not a difficult choice to avoid doing that.

Right. And so kudos to you for the advice that you gave that guy, man. And again, like I think all of these things are are totally fine. But the more you do them, like the more you get your health right, the more you get your diet right and the way that you feel in your. body how good that feels, at least for me, man, like I don't want to, I don't want to disrupt that. And it's almost like if I, if I go in one of these benders and if I do drink a lot, or if I do eat a lot of crappy food, then I'm going to feel like crap. And so it's helpful

to be reminded in my body of why I might not want to do those things. Dude, and then to your point, you're chased, then you're chasing it the next day, right? Then you're having way too much caffeine to try to keep yourself awake or something worse. You're, you know, you know, you know, got to take five extra nicotine pouches or cigarettes or whatever, you know what I mean? Like then all of a sudden you're chasing it the next day when you wake up in the morning and you are in that great place, you're just, your body doesn't crave it. And I'll, I'll, I'll leave it with this. You know, what works for me is just, I have a very simple mantra that's nothing unique, but works for me is just act as if, right? Like, what would the version of me do

that's a fucking rock star? Yep. Right? Like that wakes up in the morning. crushes the day, you know, on top of everything, getting everything done, getting back to people, being the dad I want to be, being the partner I want to be, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Like, what does that guy do? Yep. And then just act like him. I'm not him. Because I do fuck up all the time, right?

And I'll probably never be that guy because that might be an unattainable goal. However, if I act as if I'm him, I make a lot more of the right decisions. And I literally say that pizza is another one for me too, dude. I love pizza, like just about everybody, but it just does not work for my body. It just, all the, it just, I just hate, I hate the way I feel. So like, I just, when I look, when people are having pizza, I just look at it and I'm just like, I literally say to myself, like, the version of me that's a killer doesn't eat pizza. So I'm just not going to do it.

And it's like finding these little things and it'll be different for everybody, but you find these little things that you can say to yourself in moments. And man, it's amazing what one little phrase, one little thought, can steer you away from these negative things. What I'll say is that the closer that you get to that rock star version of you, though, the less it's acting as if and the more it's actually just acting because that's how that person and how that version of you acts in those situations. Yeah, I completely agree.

Dude, I cannot wait for your book launch party that you're having. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Yeah, it's going to be awesome. Yeah, it's going to be great to IRL a little bit. And just happy for you and everything you have going for the book. Tell people where they can find the book. Can you pre-order it now?

Give them all the details. And guys, everything that Derek shares makes, you know, just scroll down, whether it's YouTube or wherever you're listening to the podcast, I'll have all the links in the show notes. Thanks, Ryan. Yes. So the book is out June 3rd. It'll be everywhere you can get books for the most part. I'm giving away some bonuses, some pre-order bonuses on my website, derrickoburn.com.

And I'm already starting just to share and write a lot more even beyond the ideas in the book. it feels really nice to be in a place where I don't really have anything to sell. I just get to write and share and contribute. And I mean, maybe I will at some point. But for now, I just like being in a position of being able to give a lot of the wisdom, the ideas, the knowledge that I've been able to pick up over thinking about this topic for 20-some years. So I would love to connect with any or all of you over there. And can't wait for my book to get out in the world and for, you know,

hopefully some of the ripple effects that will create. Yeah, guys. And while you're pre-ordering, let's retire retirement, also pick up networking is not working, which is another incredible book that you wrote as well. And that was actually, when that book came out, it's the last time you're on the show. So we'll have to make sure there's not such a big gap between appearances because I love having you on. Our conversations are always awesome. Big time.

But I do appreciate the hell out of you. So happy for you guys. I've read the book. I got a early, early copy. Incredible. You're going to take a ton away from it. and I'll tell you what else. This is a sneaky side benefit to Derek's book.

You gain a lot of cocktail party fodder, like, stats that you can use to sound super smart when you're in cocktail parties as well. And I've already used a couple of them. So that's just a little bonus that you get as well. There's a lot of little stats that you can use in cocktail parties, if that's important to you. Oh, yeah. All right. I appreciate you, bud.

Be good. Thanks so much, Ryan. Appreciate you. in a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Happy holidays. Want to give your host a gift? Consider subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show this holiday season. It really helps the show grow.

From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday. If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.