Finding Peak w/ Ryan Hanley - The Unexpected Secret to Sydney Roe's Success

Episode Date: February 12, 2020

Spartan philosophy, built in the black-ops lab of business: https://www.findingpeak.comFinding Peak podcast: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanleyOne of my favorite people in the whole world, Sydney Roe, joins the podcast to share the origin story to her superpowers. Get more: https://ryanhanley.com/--Recommended Tools for GrowthOpusClip: #1 AI video clipping and editing tool: https://link.ryanhanley.com/opusRiverside: HD Podcast & Video Software | Free Recording & Editing: https://link.ryanhanley.com/riversideWhisperFlow: Never waste time typing on your keyboard again: https://link.ryanhanley.com/whisperflowCaptionsApp: One app for all your social media video creation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/captionsappGoHighLevel: It's time to take your business workflow to the Next Level: https://link.ryanhanley.com/gohighlevelPerspective.co: The #1 funnel builder for lead generation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/perspective--Episodes You Might Enjoy:From $2 Million Loss to World-Class Entrepreneur: https://lnk.to/delkFrom One Man Shop to $200M in Revenue: https://lnk.to/tommymelloIs Psilocybin the Gateway to Self-Mastery? https://lnk.to/80upZ9This show is part of the Unplugged Studios Network — the infrastructure layer for serious creators. 👉 Learn more at https://unpluggedstudios.fm.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday. Hello, everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have one of the more interesting episodes that I think I've ever done for this show because it's with one of my favorite people in the whole world, someone who I worked with for a while at Agency Nation, someone who is incredibly creative, thoughtful, driven, ambitious, intelligent, empathetic, funny, and just someone I love chatting with, and that is Sidney Row, the chief marketing officer of Be Atomic, who is helping spread the word about their tool,

neon. And this conversation goes so many different places because Sydney and I have so much history. So there are very tactical things. Those things are towards the end. So if you're looking for tactics and like Sydney Roe keynote kind of here's what's going on with video and marketing and that kind of stuff and storytelling, then that tends to be towards the end. The beginning is us really just wrapping and catching up. And even though she and I do, talk quite often just about general stuff. We don't often go deeper than whatever the topic of that particular conversation is. And we ended up just having a chat that I personally really enjoyed that kind of changed the course of my day, you know, in terms of just, you know, it's hard to not have a

smile afterwards. But, you know, it's a little higher level in different areas. And I wanted Sydney to have a chance to really tell her story. And I wanted her to have a chance to kind of share. who she is. She tells so many other people's stories. And I thought that it was time that she dived into her own story a little bit, a little more and gave some context to it and gave some context to it now that she's in what I believe is her most confident and authoritative place in life. Like I feel like every day she's more confident and more authoritative and that's a good thing for her and it's a good thing for the industry and for all of us who follow her. So So it's a deep conversation.

It goes a bunch of different directions. I promise you're going to enjoy it. You're certainly going to, I think, appreciate Sydney who she is and what she brings to this industry more. Because I know I did, and I didn't think that that was possible. So I'm going to get you as quickly as I can to Sydney Row. But before we do, I got to pay the bills, got to talk about my peeps, the people making this show possible. making the inside possible, which is now free for everyone. You can go to the Facebook group.

You can go watch the videos. That's completely free. And it is free because of the tremendous sponsors that we have of this show. So, first and foremost, Tarmica. Tarmica is the tool that I'm using for commercial rating. I've got set up on the tool. I'm now live and licensed and Rogue Risk is an operating entity. And Tarmica is the tool that we're doing our commercial rating with.

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Go to tarmica.com. That's T-A-R-M-I-K-A. T-A-R-M-I-K-A dot com. Schedule a demo, get to know this product. You want to know this product because it's something that I think will become ubiquitous in our interest. It'll be one of those tools that you choose. And if it works for you and you can get ahead with it and,

and gain some ground, gain some efficiencies, help your people do their job more effectively. That's what it's all about, my friend. So visit t-A-r-M-I-K-A dot com today. Now we get on to Sydney Row. All right, dude. Well, I'm super glad that we had a chance to hook up. I mean, there's so much stuff going on.

I listen to your podcast from Nola yesterday. I got caught up. I missed a couple episodes, and I caught that. one on a dog walk, which was good. I have some questions around that. And in general, I guess, I guess where I'd like to start is, how long have you been with Neon now? In spirit or in reality? Well, because I'm sure, because there may be people listening for various reasons. Let's just say in reality. August of 2018, August 1st officially of 2018. So it's been four months then, four-ish.

Yeah, we're still in the honeymoon phase. Yeah. Now, do you say you're with, if someone asked you, would you say, I work for neon or I work for Beatomic? I'd say, because I get the question all the, it's so funny how past experiences, color future experiences. But I'm sure you remember the incessant conversations of, what's the difference? between the big eye and trusted choice and trust and agency. And I don't understand the, you know, how that all works together. And it took, you know, it takes about three months of conversations to get a full color picture. Yeah. You start out black and white and then eventually

you get to the whole rainbow. Yeah. I still have those conversations with the DM and Be Atomic, but essentially it's Be Atomic is the company. It's the core mission. So I work for Be Atomic and the neon is the product. That's right. Okay. I think I guess the thing that in my mind, sometimes I even get confused, and I'm sure that many people, which one was the parent of the other? Because there will be many, there will potentially be many products or services that fall under the B Atomic brand, but neon is its own piece of that puzzle. Yeah. So you know, Seth, well enough to know that the dude does not stop with ideas. Like he just keeps, he, He's, we'll get on the phone.

He'll be like, said, don't worry. I won't run out of ideas. And I'm like, I know. That's what makes me nervous. So, Neon is one of the ideas. But yeah, he's got other things. Like, for example, we've met with a company who does consulting, but also has some experience with, like, data migration and cleansing.

So I, well, so as a startup, you know, I'm sure I guess you probably don't have to go through this. but like coming from one system into another is hell on earth. So how can we make that process, which naturally, organically is already hell, uh, more cost efficient, more enjoyable,

more time sensitive. Like right now, the way that we're doing it is not only hell like just because it's annoying as crap to have to even go through that process. like I can't wait for the day when we stop talking about data migration because it's just like you press a button and it just all sucks into some vortex or something. But for right now, it's just a terrible, painful process. So how can we make it better? So that's just one of the ideas we're thinking about is like how can we run towards some of these things that are like

the pipe and duck work of the insurance world and just make them a little better, a little easier. Will they all, will all the companies be named after elements on the periodic table? Good chance. Good chance. Seems to be a trend. I tried to walk away. It's funny we talked about it. I tried to walk away from the octopus.

You know the octopus. No. You don't know the octopus? No. Bro. I'm going to introduce you to the octopus, capital T, capital O. It was one of the first things I saw when I was talking to,

when I actually got to see the product and talk to Seth about the atomic and neon. I couldn't for the life of me to figure out what the deal with the octopus was. So I first got in, I was like, Seth, we got to have a real conversation about this octopus. I don't think people get it. Like, I don't know if it's good for the company. And he was like, I could tell he was kind of like, this is really important to me, Sid, but at the same time, he's a humble dude. So he's going to be like, all right, well, you're the marketer, so you, you know, you choose. But Seth also has this way of sort of subtly, subconsciously,

back into conversations, getting you in the right conversations, people who like the octopus, and now the octopus is the website. So anyways, there's a good chance that his vision of brand will always stick, and it'll be scientific elements. So I actually kind of like it. I think it's cool. I like the, I mean, it's very catchy. I mean, look, I went with a single, like for me. So when I pick names of things. I do the solubble game where it's like neon, zinc, rogue. My wife's former, so the name of the Murray group used to be the Gilderland Agency. Gilgerland Agency. That's like, I can't even, I lost count somewhere around like 12 claps, way too many syllabels. So you have to keep as few, as close to one as you possibly can to be a good name. And, um,

neon and zinc both fit that. Indium is two. That's three, but that's still decent. Well, and I think too, Seth has a, when he creates a name or creates a, there's always a story behind something, right? So the idea of neon is that neon gas is technically all the particles that make up neon gas. are floating within our world, right? In the same way that the data is being created every single day by an agency, phone calls

are happening, emails are being sent, they exist, but they're not being structured and collected in a way that's intentional to power an agency in an efficient, scalable, sustainable way. So in the same way that a neon, there's a word for people who make neon lights, but, you in the same way that this person goes and collects those particles and then in this way, and then is able to use that mix of intentional collection of particles to create gas, which is one of the, you know, neon is one of the brightest lights. How can we do that for an agency, right? How can we bring these, this data together in that way to then fuel that agency?

So there's always, there's always something under the surface with him that you don't know. The octopus, just because we're on it, is one brain, right? So the collective, but yet many tentacles, right? So still each tentacle is sort of independently operating, but with the collective power of that brain. So, and then the idea of sort of the octopus coming from the depths, right? the idea that the industry sort of looks at the agent and says they can't do it. They couldn't really do it. They're not they're not tech savvy enough.

They're not this enough that they're, you know, they don't work hard enough. They just go golfing. There's this idea, this picture painted of them sort of, you know, sort of looking at the depths. And then all of a sudden out of nowhere, you don't expect it. They come up and just. Yeah. And there goes your shit. It also looks very similar to the Hydra logo from the evil empire that fights against,

that fights against what's his face, Captain America in the Marvel Empire, in the Marvel series. I'm not up on my Captain America, but you may want to look, just search Hydra all in caps. And if you want to get real specific, search Red Skull. And you can read about the origins of the Hydra organization, which is essentially like the underpinning evil. Empire Secret Society that's fighting the Avengers most of the time in the Marvel universe. So just throw that out there. I mean, I like it. But I just find that to be interesting.

This guy looks, this is like a guy for my nightmares, by the way. This guy is like. Pretty sure that whoever came up with that Red Skull was having a nightmare when he envisioned it trying to produce nightmares. So I've always, yeah, go ahead. I think that that description is, is awesome. I think it depicts why we, it is a Seths, Zerimba world and we're all just living in it.

But, you know, I want to talk, I want this conversation to not be about him, what you're doing. You know, I'm, I'm interested in you. I want the audience to get to know Sydney. Like, I want to get to know you a little better. Because I feel like, I feel like you tangentially tell your story and you're really good at bringing people into who you are without actually taking them super deep.

Like sometimes you go deep, but like a lot of times you're so good at building a brand. And I think you get so into whatever your project is that, you know, I kind of want to, I want to talk a little bit about like your story and how you became, like how your story has evolved and how your career is evolved because I think it's incredibly interesting and for someone um you know and you and I have talked about this many times uh for someone um as young as you are a female you know what I mean like being gay like you have you're so well respected throughout the industry and it's so incredibly rare for you to have cracked into the conversations that you've got into and to reach those levels. Like, I think there's something really

important there that we should talk about because I feel like there has to be other people who maybe do not do certain things or don't take certain steps in their career because they feel like they can't or won't be accepted. And you have consistently shown that that's not possible. And, you know, as far into that as you want to go, I'd love to talk about that because I think it not only speaks to who you are as a person, but it speaks to why your work is so creative and so consistent and how you're able to evoke emotion. And I promise I'll stop this little diatribe after a second, but I was listening to you on the podcast that you put out about being in Nola. And, you know, I've, I've been to that event a couple times. And I, you know, I just picture like you, when I first met you,

you would never even have been willing to get up on that stage, let alone sit up there and talk with the confidence and the authority with which you did. And that it was just having known you for as long as I have, it was very, this is going to, I don't want this to sound wrong, but like I was very proud of you that you were able to do that. Like I thought it was amazing. Like obviously I've always believed that you have that in you,

but like for you to just hearing the way that you were coming across and talking about your you know different stuff and pulling it all together it was also incredibly persuasive and well done which which made me proud too because I know I taught you all that shit so um you know but uh kind of but um but really I did but um you know the so I just I just kind of want to dig into that a little bit because I think I think not enough people um no no um I don't mean all the intimate details, but know how you got here. So maybe just walk us through, like, from wherever you want to start, wherever you feel it's a good place to start, so that we can kind of show people how you became what they see today.

Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I had this thought the other day that, so I'm five years out of talking to my family, which is kind of a crazy thing to say. but I had this thought the other day where, and it really started like a year ago when I started realizing that Jess's oldest son, who's 15 now, he was 14 at the time, is going to be out of the house forever in four years. That's it. He's gone. And I had this like moment where I think if I had to color in those five years, the first like three, were me just being pissed, pissed and angry and bitter about what had happened. The fourth year was sort of a apathetic year where I just didn't care.

I just didn't think about stuff because I felt like my career was going well. I had a great partnership. I was trying to build a family. And then this last year is like a new phase for me where I'm looking back and I'm like, my gosh, Five years is a long time. And I feel like I've missed so much time with my family. And it gave me a different perspective to think about how I'm sharing my story and why I'm sharing my story and how that affects me, the people around me and my family.

And I think I'll be honest, at first, I shared it because I was a angry and I wanted to people, I wanted people to know what had happened. And then it, you know, and before, I, you know, I kind of, I just kind of didn't share it. And then I had this moment where I thought, I should not be sharing my story for the wrong reasons. Like I can't, that is a disservice to the world and to humanity if I'm sharing my story for the wrong reason. So anytime I share it, I want to be really intentional with why and what I'm. I say and how I say it. But I do think that it's a part of me in the same way. It's a part of my experience and I can't not talk about it. It's hard for me to tell you who Sid is without talking about that part of me because it's shaped who I am. So looking at it through that lens, I think when you have the people who are closest to you,

the people that you believe are going to be there, that your support system, your safety net, the ones you can talk to, the ones who know you better than anybody else in the entire world, turn their backs on you and just say, you know what, I'm done. That's a side of humanity that I think everyone has different experiences, but that's a side of humanity that is, it's very dark. It's a very, very dark side of humanity. And when you see what that people are capable of that, I think it brings more color to the stories that I hear from,

you know, from independent agents about things that they're feeling in their business and the way that the world is sort of treating, them, right? Can I ask a follow question on that? So I think that's a really interesting comment. And the reason I think that is because you are assumed the way that you took a very dark moment, a moment that you couldn't have been prepared for that was filled, I'm sure, with heartache and with surprise and frustration, anger, all things you described. And obviously your world probably went black and white or gray or whatever and what you just said is that allows you to see colors brighter i don't think that is the case for everyone i actually think most people when really shitty stuff

happens they can't get out of the gray like if you had to one do you agree that that that or i mean i don't i don't know you need to agree but um i guess why why what is it about you and or what do you think is it about you that like when something bad happens, right? And this could be something really, really awful like what happened to you or something less awful because we all have these brief moments during the day where like it just feels like nothing's going right and we get that darkness or grayness in front of eyes. I would agree that you see bright colors despite that. What do you think it is about you that allows you to do that where others just kind of wallow

in it? you, you know, kind of rise up out of it. What do you, why do you think that is? What do you think it is about you? Oh, that's a good question. One that I necessarily haven't thought about. I think, so part of it is, like, you know, my childhood was one of the best childhoods. Like, I grew up in a cul-de-sac.

I got, you know, I had the best friends. I had parents who loved me. and gave me, would give me anything in the world. My mom would drive like 45 minutes to take me to sporting events three times a week. You know, like I think I've experienced a really just loving, incredible environment. And so I know what it feels like for that to be. And I think that trend, it wasn't like, because I think there's a difference between, look, you know, you have a really terrible past and you just don't know what good looks like. And then you know what good looks like and you

transition into, oh my gosh, this is the reverse of good. And I think when you go through that transition of great to terrible, you're like, I just, I didn't want it to happen to me and I don't want it to happen to anyone else, right? I would rather we all figure out how to keep ourselves in that environment where we're helping and collaborating and loving each other, right? versus turning the tables on each other and for, you know, so that, I think that that might be one of the reasons. I mean, I really, I don't, I don't know, man. I just, I really believe that people have the best in them. I love story. I remember my, my dad was standing in Disney World. I'll never forget. He just stood there at the entrance, which like, any kid is like, why are we standing at the entrance?

We gotta go. Like there's Space Mountain, there's Mickey, like there's the cafe where we're gonna, you know, have like tons of ice cream and you're just standing at the freaking entrance. This is the most boring part of the entire park. But that's the part of the park where everybody floods in.

That's the most concentrated part of the park where with humanity, right? I mean, everybody is right there at the entrance in the line coming through, coming out the exit. Then it kind of disperses throughout the rest of the park. And he just stood there. and just looked around and was like, man, it's so crazy that every single one of these people has a different story. And I'll never forget that moment because it's true. Like every time I meet

somebody, I just, I want to know who they are and their story and what they've been through. And I just, I believe that they, that there's something incredible inside of them. Right. So I think that's part of it too, maybe. Does that help answer? No, it does. I, I, you know, if I had to take what you just said and and a little bit of knowing you it's um you uh have a very um i think at times and i and i and i don't mean this to be negative to you but like i think at at times at least when i first knew you i think you had a very it was almost like a naive positivity and abundance mindset and i think what you've grown into in the last five years is you haven't lost that abundance mindset you've just kind and matured into a new form of it. Like you're not, it's not because you're experiencing things

for the first time. It's because you actually believe that people are good at heart and have an abundance mindset that it allows you to see those colors. And by colors, I'm, you know, the not just actual colors, the metaphorically colors, but. Well, and you asked before, like, how start, you know, start with your story and sort of what, how did you get to the place that you're at today. And I would say that I think there's a depth. I've met people who have not been through, you know, live a very comfortable life, which is a very great thing. And I think that's awesome. I wish, I mean, I would hope that everybody could live a very comfortable life. And then I've met people who have not lived a very comfortable life. And there's a, the depth of, I don't,

there's a, there's a deepness to their richness, to their journey. that I can't really express when I start to hear their story and talk to them and the way they phrase their experiences and tell their story and talk about life. It's just, it's very different. And I think should be looked at as a tool in someone's tool belt. So I remember, and I don't know if you remember this, but we were sitting outside. We had just launched rockets. We were trying to film a video for the announcement of Agency Nation, I think it was Pathfinder at the time. There was a, anyways, so we were sitting at this random bar eating food, and it was me, Nessa, you and Chip.

And we were just having a very honest conversation about speaking and presenting. and I said, well, you guys don't understand because it's just, it's harder being a woman, you know, when you present. And you turn the tables on me and you said, Sid, I get it and I hear you. But at the same time, I'm jealous of you because I walk in and I'm just like every other person in the room. I have to work really hard to be, you know, the white dude that everybody should listen to because there's like 20 other white dudes behind me.

maybe you have that harder road at the beginning, but people remember you and recognize you because of how you look and what you say and that. And when you said that, I was like, oh my gosh, it's a tool in my tool belt, right? Like that's, yeah, okay, maybe it is a little tougher and I got to deal with XYZ. But that gave me the confidence, seeing it like that, being able to say, like, I'm the person that is the unicorn and I get to own that. That's my thing. All of a sudden it became that's another, that's another like, you know, weapon or tool or whatever. So I think, I guess to the people, because you kind of position this as, hey, what could you say, you know, what would you say to people who, you know, might not have the confidence

or, you know, as somebody who might look different or sound different or have different opinions. It's not just about being gay. It's about being the person in your agency who is thinking about doing automation. and the agency owner's like, I don't understand, just pick up the phone, right? Yeah. If that, own that, because that difference is what makes people remember you. And guess what?

The people who get remembered make history. So like, so that it's a have confidence in it, I guess is what I'd say. Because it, because of the way you think, the way you look, the way you sound, the way you talk, the way you dress, you're pushing, you're pushing those boundaries. and you've got a depth to that, to your journey because you're pushing those boundaries that is going to inform every single action you take as you move forward in a way that somebody who lives a comfortable life and looks the same and sound the same and dresses the same and does the same things because that's the way it's always been done. They don't have and they're going to, they're going to, so that's what I would say is

have confidence in it. Yeah, I think that's a tremendous way to look at it. obviously I feel the same in many ways. It, um, I think this goes for, I think, I think that this concept is often applied to like big, huge things,

but I think you can take it all the way down to even the smallest interactions in your, in your life and, and how you engage with your, your spouse or your partner or your, your kids or your friends or just the people at, at the local convenience store. You know what I mean?

Like, I think that, yeah, you could just throw your money down or put your card in and walk away and take your coffee and and humdrum on with your life. And look, there's not every day when you want to be bouncy and friendly and fun and big cute smile. Like, I get it. Like everyone, you know, you're constantly dealing with different stuff. But I think that just a little extra effort, just a tiny little extra effort, like compounded over time, like so far. You know what I mean? Like I listen to Cass's podcast all the time.

And he asked this question, like, do you think it's skill or luck that leads to success or whatever? And, you know, if he ever interviews me, I will answer it this same way. But I, like, I hear it. And I almost want to say, like, I think that's a silly question. And the reason is because I know what's trying to elicit a thought process and conversation. and that and for that I think it's a great question. But in reality, I think that to me, neither one of those things is the defining factor. It's just effort.

Now, again, you can't, you know, you effort in the wrong direction. You're going to get opposite results from what you expect. But that doesn't mean you're not going to get results. And a little, and I think that's something that people miss too. like I guess I guess and this is something that you and I talked about a ton when we were working together is like expectations right like what do we expect like both of us I would go into something with expectations and I would get frustrated or you would go into something with expectations and you would get frustrated and we talked a lot about um properly setting expectations or

simply not having expectations and just applying effort so instead of wasting brain power on what's going to be our traffic goal. I, you know what I mean, I think I even said this during me once I'm like, I don't give a shit what our traffic goal is. Like I don't care. Make it 10 bazillion. You know what I mean? Like come up with a number. I don't care because what we're going to do is effort as hard as we can to deliver quality as often as we can. And what happens is going to happen. If we miss by a hundred visitors, are we going to be upset because some stupid goal? What if we miss by a thousand? I still don't care because what I care about is did you mail it in or did you not and did you keep pushing

forward and you know I think I think so much of this stuff that we talk about has it's just effort and are you willing to put that in and and I think you've proven the case and it's why at least for part part of this interview I wanted to talk about this I think you've proven the case over and over again that by simply applying effort to your work you can break down any boundary, you can reach any goal. I mean, what are you? 33, 32? 29. Fuck you. But 30 in not in 10 days. So I know, I'm actually like, I'm sad. I'm going to be 30. Oh, I, for some reason I had, I thought that you passed 30. But you're like deceptive. I told you this. You're deceptively young. Nobody would think that you're, so don't even get started on me. You were just about to say 40.

You were, I'm not 40 yet. You were just about to say 40. Son of a gun. The hell was I saying? I don't even know now. Effort, well, yeah, yeah, I don't even know what I was saying. No, I, well, it's, so it's funny. I, so on our website, we have this form that you can fill out and contact us. So we've gotten some really random emails, and one of them was from a VC. and I've gotten a couple of them before, but I just was like, I'm curious. I've never talked to a VC before.

I'm curious to see what that phone call would be like. So I told Seth and Clint this morning, actually before this call, I'm going to talk to a VC. Like I just want to see what that phone call is like. And they started laughing. They were like, all right, have fun, you know. So I get on the phone call and this guy's like, yeah, we have this funding. And we've been around for like four or five years and we're super cool. And we have all these carriers and big brokers.

and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, cool. So what's your goal? Like, what's your mission? And he was like, well, return. We just, you know, he's very upfront about it. Like, we want ROI. And I was like, okay. So this is going to be the most frustrating call that you've ever had because we have the coolest piece of technology, but we are not in it for ROI. And then I went on this like, you know, diatribe of sort of what we're, our mission and sort of what we're trying to do. And at the end, he was like, I could tell he was kind of like overload, you know, where it was, you know, we're not a shiny object. Like we're trying to rebuild the piping. And, and anyways, I guess, I guess it's just, if your mission is to get seven million people to

come to the website, why? What does that say about who cares about the seven million? Oh, your board cares about the seven million? Oh, your investors care about the seven million? well, what about the people that you're supposed to be serving? What do they care about? Right? So it's like, yeah, I totally get it. Like effort towards not just effort, but man, effort towards the true mission, the why of what you're doing every day or else, what are you doing when you get up? Yeah. I'm, dude, I am so, I'm so 100% with you on this. What I was going to say is you're 33 and you're a CMO, but really you're 29 in a CMO. That's. That's where I was trying to get to that.

And then back to you are only 29 and almost called me 40. So, not there's anything wrong with being 40 for 30, but I am, I still have a three at the beginning. See, but people are starting to like actually just kind of listen to you at this point in your life. Like I still have to prove that people should listen to me. No one is still listening to me. People just like to pretend like they do. You're just like, what's he going to say now?

That's BS. Here's what I would say to, so I agree with the Y thing. If the last like three years of my career have taught me anything, it's that one, if you are, I would like to, I would like to believe that people believe, at least for the most part, I'm guarantee. I actually know for a fact. There's a few people that don't. But I think most people believe that, at least for me and. I know they believe it for you, that your actions, whether right or wrong, are always well-intentioned and for the good of the majority of the group and not personally, right?

So I think it would be hard for someone to point to an action that you took that was overtly and self-oriented. Right. I think that would be hard for someone to say about you. I would love for someone, I would hope that people in general believe that about me. And what I mean by that is and what the advice I'm trying to give, or at least the advice is by that word, what I'm trying to say to people is, if you follow your why or what you believe or your moral construct or your belief system and you stick to that, I think what happens is the reason people break it is they're afraid to make a mistake. Well, geez, if I do this and this happens, well, then no one's going to want to do this with me anymore. and I can tell you from from first-hand experience, that's not actually true because I've had quite a few little hiccups,

the last few years from, you know, not nefarious things, but just things that didn't work, opportunities that didn't work out the way that I wanted, what have you. And like, I'm okay, still here. You know, most people still, and I think for you, the same is true, like not that you've had to go through half, have the stuff that I intentionally put myself through for some reason. But I think, I think that's, I think what you're saying is wholly accurate, you know,

effort and, and staying on course and just allowing that course to take you where you're supposed to go instead of trying to pick and choose what you think other people are going to want you to do or what other people think the right thing is to do. Like, I would be in a much different place in my life if I did what other people thought the best decision for my life would be. And I can tell you today, despite the fact that I haven't written an insurance policy yet, I just started giving away my paid membership for free this morning. I feel pretty freaking good as a human being. So I don't know. I don't know what that proves. Well, and I definitely want to say that I definitely make selfish decisions sometimes. So for example,

I'm not perfect. You do not want to be on the other end of Sydney's wrath. Let me tell you that. I've been there more than people. Yeah, I mean, I am not perfect. I mean, as an example, it is very interesting being on a team with just three people. And there's so much moving. And right now, the biggest focus has to be the product.

Clint is leading the product and product development. And, you know, there was a moment that I've had it a couple times where we'll sit on calls and like, all we talk about is the product. And I'm like, why are we talking about the marketing? Why are we talking about the met? Why are we talking about the website? You guys don't want to know how the octopus drawing is going? Like, come on, right? And I got what happens, what tends to happen is, and I see this, I have this like cycle, like self cycle that I go.

go through where I start to then pivot about caring about what, you know, this other person is doing with this project that seems to be more important. And then I stop thinking about the things that I really care about, which are making really awesome videos and telling the message the way I think it should be told and listening to how the product development is going so that I can bring it into my, and just doing a really good job at the thing I'm doing a good job at. And then because I'm ignoring this piece, then even more attention gets drawn back to the product because I'm not doing anything over here. Right. And so then there's this cycle that happens and I'm like, and it'll go for like a couple

days where I'm like, what is wrong? Like and then I'm like, it's Clint's fault and it sets fall and it's not. And then eventually I wake up out of it and I'm like, oh my gosh, sit, stop thinking. Like we only have so much space in our brain and so many things we can do every day, if I'm too concentrated on thinking about what this other person is doing, I'm not doing amazing things and I have nothing to bring to the table. If I just concentrate on what I'm really, really, really good at and just do that thing and keep doing that thing, I know that it'll, I know that it matters, right? And then you, and there's this whole, like, you start to question yourself and you don't

trust yourself and doubt. And it's hard in a startup culture because everybody else is questioning you at the same time. So anyways, I am not perfect and I do make really selfish decisions. And I think being a part of this team and this company has taught me how selfishly I do think through things sometimes and how much I appreciate having people like you, having people like Seth and Clint who can say, honestly, you know, Sid, do that, you know, think about it this way or come at it from this perspective or whatever, right? So anyways, it's I, I think 110%. Yeah, I guess I don't know where I was going with. No, I know. I think it's a really applicable story because if you're sitting there and you're listening to this and I, and I get for the for everyone listening to the show, maybe some of what we're talking about is sounds maybe fluffy or high level. We haven't gone very tactical. We'll take the last few minutes and I do have some very tactical questions for Sid that I want to talk through. I think this is a. important though because I think conversations are like like this are important because one I know there's there's not a ton of people that that that are willing to go this deep on the record so I think

that's important two I think what you just described to me is a perfect scenario even for like a producer who's listening right like it is easy as a producer to start to lose sight that you are part of a bigger team and just start to veer off into, well, I just need to get my money and they're not giving me my commission split. And over there, they're getting five points more commissioner. They have access to this tool that I don't have access to. And the one, so I do that that cycle that you just talked about. I have that same exact cycle and I'll ask because I'm like, I have that same cycle with my wife, right? Like I have to go, she, I literally will say to myself, I'll like put my hands up and I'll be like, she's on your team. Okay. I'm back. I mean, like,

You know, like, there'll be moments where you're like, and I'm like, wait a minute. If there's anyone who's on my team, it's this human being who I've been with for 14 years. Like, you know what I mean? Like, the fact I still have to say that, what I've tried to do is just make that loop tighter. So instead of a couple days, it's a couple hours. And then I've tried to work on this a lot. This is why you're 40 and I'm, it's like a couple minutes. This is why you're 40.

And I'm 30, so I'm just kidding. I think that all I'm saying is, I think that loop gets tighter. And so it's part of it is, so say you are a producer and you're listening to this and you're, you know, you're kind of frustrated with your ownership or or, and this is very common, right? We see this all the time. Gen X, millennial generation fighting against the baby boomers, like they don't understand us. They won't listen to us. They won't give us leash to go do what we want to do. And then we start to peel away.

And it's all, well, I'm going to go start my own thing. And, and I think what's important or something to consider in that cycle is, is take a second, take a deep breath, woo-sa, whatever you got to do. And remember who's actually on your team, right? Like, is this person actually fighting against you? Or are they doing what they think is right for the team as a whole? And do you just need to do a better job of? describing why you think this other thing is the way to go or or maybe is there a way to work it in

or what is the alternate solution and if you can do that woo-saw come all the way back and say this person is not helping the broader team well then you need to take action otherwise don't let that shit even enter your mindset because all it it's just toxicity that you don't need and just try to make that loop close shorter and shorter and shorter i'm obviously not perfect at it but having been, you know, I've experienced all the same thoughts that you've experienced many, many times. And the only thing I can say is, I don't know that you can ever stop it from happening, but you can make the loops tighter. And what that does is make you more productive and give you more awareness of where you should be. That's, that's probably the best I can say. So, okay,

I got some tactical questions I want to throw at you because, um, you are the maven of video and marketing and storytelling in the industry today. Good to know. Big shoes. My first question for you is, how much thought, like, how much thought do you put into a piece of content? Like, I want to try to phrase this the right way. The impact it's going to have on people versus telling the story that you

think needs to be told. You get you get while I'm asking the question that uh like are you thinking I want to impact people in this way and you craft a story for that or do you try to tell the story that needs to be told and and let the impact happen as it will or some combination? I'd say uh tell the story as it needs to be told and let the impact happen. So I think in any businesses journey, there's going to be things that you do, uh, things that happen that are going to be more impactful. and some that are going to be less impactful. And it's the accumulation of those impactful things wherever they exist on that scale that actually

makes the biggest punch. And that's the part that people miss is one piece, I got to get one piece of content that gets 500 or goes viral. And that's going to be my rocket to the moon. I had somebody I was talking to the other day, and said, yeah, I was watching some of your videos and that, da, da, that. Yeah, there's that one that has like, only like 50 views. What happened there, right?

And I mean, you know, I definitely have those weeks where I'm like, man, why did my video only get 50 views? Because you still title your videos, ridiculous thing. The shocking truth of SIDS videos. Players play. That's what we do. That's what we do. So, so, so, fair enough, fair enough.

So, so I think, yeah, I have those moments around like, oh, like, why didn't that get more views? But, like, I know the one that's going to go out today is going to be impactful. Just because I'm listening, I'm listening to people. I'm on the phone with people and I'm listening to what questions they're asking me about neon and what matters to them. I'm in the room listening to the carriers. I'm listening to Seth. I'm listening to Clint. and I just I'm a decently empathetic person so I know what's starting to hit those deeper notes

and like really bring out those vivid colors to your analogy before. That's a really good way of pulling it full circle. So I would just say document, document, document. Like I don't, I mean, like I think somebody asked me, do you have a roadmap of like all the videos you're going to make in 2020? No, I have like six videos to make. And after that, I have no clue what I'm going to talk about. Yeah. But I know there's going to be things to talk about because more things are going to happen in the next six weeks that will fill in the next six weeks. And then I'll have, okay, right? So it's like I just, I'm confident enough that I know. And if I don't have something to talk about, I'll figure it out. I just, I know I can. I've been in those positions enough to know. I know kind of what to look for and how to tell the story. And I'm, okay with a video getting two views. I'm okay with that. So there's a couple things there. So you find yourself in a moment where maybe even you have another idea written down,

but it's just not speaking to you, right? So like maybe you did some work and you came up with a list of 10 videos that you really think would be good videos. And you get to video seven, you're just like, I would rather take a bullet to the brain than create this next video today. But I need that I want to be active, right? Because activity does, does, though it is not the most important thing, it does have relevance. So what are, like, how do you brainstorm an idea? Like, if you were just trying to figure something out, like, where would you go? How would you, like, what's your, I mean, and this could be specific to you, but like, what are, what's the way that you dig yourself out of like, like, you know, like, you know, the block or whatever. Like, how do you?

Yeah. That's like, that's a really hard, that's probably one of the hardest things as a creator that you have to do because it's much more fun when the ideas are just kind of spit firing at you and you get to develop them. Like developing an idea and creating an idea are two very different things at different difficulty levels. And I'd say creating the idea is much harder because you're just, you're literally making something out of nothing and that's always hard. Like when somebody says, oh yeah, I got to write an email or blog post. If they're working off a blank piece of paper and off of a written piece of paper or like a written blog post, it's always easier to start with something than nothing. I would say I kind of go into this like, I have to like detach myself because typically

creators get into a, they get into like tunnel vision where they're just like the next thing, the next thing, you know, sort of developing those things out. And you get, you're almost like in the forest and you have to really step back. And so like things that I'll do are I'll go to our YouTube channel and I'll look at what have we said on the record. Like because there's what you're thinking you've said about the company and what you think about the product or your mission and what you know about it. And then what's actually on record, what you've actually said. And sometimes those things get muddy, right? Because you're like, well, I think I said that one thing in that one video. that counts as like it being said, right? That counts as it being on the record. So, but it might

have gotten lost in the bigger vision of that particular video, right? So I'll go back and I'll look at like the titles and I'll think about what have I said here and what really stood out and where are the gaps in what I know about the product and I know about the mission and I know about things that have happened and what's actually on record in an impactful way, right? And that'll start to fill in. I'll start to see gaps. Like, I could have said that better. Okay, I'll make another video. Maybe I've already made a video on behavioral data. Maybe I need to make another one because it didn't, you know, I realized in that video, I didn't talk about how I talked about the idea and concept of behavioral data, but I didn't

wrap it back around to having operational insight equals more efficiency and scale because you actually know what's going on your business. So can I, then take that concept now that I've built the foundation now let's take it to the next level right so i think that's a really good concept because like your idea is morph right like you like you can one thing today and six months later maybe that idea hasn't changed but maybe you just approach it a different way or you have a different way of talking about it and that actually takes me to to my to my next question which is you are you're attacking some topics that are pretty heady like like behavioral data and behavioral, you know, you stick the word behavioral in a thing and it just

becomes complex, right? So you're trying to break these concepts down, apply them to another very heady concept of data, and then take those two concepts and lay them on top of an insurance technology. So what I would say is just those three concepts stacked on top of each other are way more complicated than any insurance policy form, which is often the feedback I get of Ryan, these are really difficult concepts to explain. Why would I talk about these things? So being someone who has broken down or is in the process

of breaking down very heady concepts, like what advice can you give to like the agents and anyone who's trying to create video or talk about insurance topics? Like what's some advice that you can give them for taking these very heady concepts and breaking them down into things that people understand? I mean, people don't buy on logic, they buy on emotion.

So what's the friction point or pain that's being, you know, that exists in someone's life that you're trying to solve for them? That's always where I start with my videos of like behavioral data. You know, it's cool. And I mean, we could talk about like objects and fields and data structure and show you a screen. screenshot of neon, which like is exciting in theory, but once you actually see it, it's kind of like, oh, like, that's, those are objects and fields, and that's where you click the button and that's cool, right? Like, I think, uh, when I was trying to explain that, I was like, why, why does be, what is the, what's the problem we're trying to solve? Like, what,

what does an agency owner feel? And I kept listening and listening and I was like, oh my gosh, there, they have no idea what any team member or any customer is doing at any given moment. They have no like this operational oversight. Like they can't, they walk through the hallway and they just trust that, you know, Joe or Jane, because they're smack in the keyboard, is actually doing, not only doing something, but doing the right thing that's going to affect the business in the most impactful way. But they don't know.

They don't, they have no clue. So that's a pain point. Right. And sometimes you almost have to create the pain point. They don't know it exists because they're still making money. But how do you, it's like, have you seen Wolf of Wall Street? Yep. So the part where he's like, sell me this pen. And then the guy goes, I need your autograph or something. And or do you want my autograph? And the guy goes, or he says something like da, da, da, da, da, and then you want my autograph. The guy was, okay, you know. But the idea of like creating the need, right? You're creating the need. Terrible. Did you put your dad? Fair. Fair.

So I, yeah, that's, there's no coming back on that one. That's going to be the Instagram, like, promo is that you trying to describe that scene on loop, like, just a over. I can't wait for that. It was an awesome example, though. It was. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

It's sad. I appreciate that, dude. We're an hour in, so we'll give you that. And I do want to be respectful of your time so we can wrap up. But no, I get what you're saying. Sometimes you have to show them that the pain exists because they don't. This is actually, I'll give you an example so that you can recalibrate your thoughts after what just happened there. Thank you. My wife's agency, I was talking to her about she runs on Tam.

She's a rack server in her office. and they grew at a pretty decent number this year, considering all the incredibly awfulness that happened to our family personally, and then take into a fact that they run on technology that is very old school, very old school. And one of the things that we were talking about for this upcoming year was, so you had about it as terrible personally, and for those that don't know, we lost a very close family member,

her brother this year, who actually worked in the agency. So that's why I'm saying that. And they were still able to put a positive number on the books. It speaks to the quality of the agency and the other staff members who were able to pick up slack, whatever. But what I said to them was, okay, so if you were to do the exact same things again this year

and you were to grow the exact same amount, you would be happy. But would you be happy if I said with small technology tweaks that would provide efficiency with the same exact team, the same exact people, the same exact relationships, you would have the potential to double that. growth to take it from, you know, 5% to 10% from 7 to 10% or 14% by, by, you know,

that's not a problem that exists to them today, right? They made a good amount of money. And they've consistently made money throughout the history of the agency. So to come up to them and say, you have a problem, they're going to go, I don't have a problem. Look how well we're doing. But, but then you have to show them. And this is why I think, I think from a marketing perspective, If you're able to pull off the neon story, and I don't mean that in the negative sense. I mean it like if you're able, like any marketer has to turn people onto their product. If you're able to do that with something like neon where you are first establishing a problem that most people don't necessarily know exists and then show them how your product solves a problem, you will have customers for life that will never leave you. That will be your absolute brand advocates, that will be ambassadors that will literally take people by the.

the hand and walk them in the front door because you've you've it's found opportunity it's not just I was struggling with this and I've tried a couple vendors and geez you're the best of the worst it's it's you took this problem that was there a cancer that existed that I didn't know was was was was in my business you've shown me it and then cured me of it and um and that's why I've said and I said this to you when you talked to me about neon I said I think that this this is one of the most worthy causes in our industry. And to the extent that you solve it, I mean, it seems like you're going to solve it.

I mean, I know the path you're on. But just the, if the only impact that Neon had, and certainly this is not what I'm rooting for, nor do I believe. But if the only impact that Neon had were the conversations that this is created about our industry, it's a game changer. It is, if we're like, if this were like a time machine movie, like where they had that timeline thing and then here's where the singularity happens and the whole, like the formation of neon and what you're doing now, I feel like is that moment. And I don't know, I'm just very happy for you guys and it's so exciting to watch. And so I have one last question for you and then I'll let you go because we're way over. But I'm probably talk for another hour. I was going to say, yeah. keep doing more examples like that will fun. Okay.

Which just so everyone knows, like, I just like to make fun of Sid. It's like one of my favorite things. It's just shocking. It's only because I love her so much. But so I want for my last question, and this speaks to this, solving a problem that people don't exist. And I want to take it all the way back to where we started with. I listened to that podcast that you did from Nola.

So in that podcast, which I'll have linked up in the show notes of this episode, which will be Ryan Hanley.com forward slash Sid, S-Y-D. I'll do Sydney because if I do Sid, people are going to spell it wrong. So Sydney, the classic way like the city in Australia, Ryan-Hanley.com forward slash Sydney. If you want, I'll have the episode to the Be Atomic podcast linked up or just go and find it. But if you're looking for the specific episode that I'm talking about, I have it linked up and everything.

as well as ways to connect with Sid and the MLF. In that, in that episode, towards the end, hold on. I love working from home. Isabella, I told her I was doing a podcast and she didn't listen to me. So in that episode or in that talk that you were giving with Billy Williams and Ron Berg, you went on towards the end. I don't want to call it a diatribe because it was more than that. it was a soliloquy of sorts.

And in there, you talk about this idea of packaging clients, knowing what people are doing at all times, being able to connect interdepartmentally. And I'm not describing it as well as you did. So go back and listen to it. But you describe the actual problem that Neon is solving. And the silence in that room was deafening. And it's nothing against that particular audience,

because I pretty much feel like you could have said what you said to just about any insurance audience outside of maybe a couple dozen people. And most of them are already part of the neon pilot, right? And they just, it was so obvious that they, the few that we're following were just, you know what I mean? The few that were following definitely were not on that level. And then the rest of the audience was like, I don't even know what she's saying. So I guess my last question in this. this is very long-winded, is to be, how do you break through that barrier, right? Where you have a very long way to take people. I mean, they, I think there were a couple of responses.

And just from what I would hear before the podcast ended, it sounded like they were talking in a different language. Like, they just could not get to where you were coming from. And again, that's not a knock on that particular audience. That would have been the case for anyone. So how do you pull people that distance? It's like what is your, how do you get them there? Jeez, dude.

Why did you save this one for the end? It just came to me. I just make this shit up as I go. Oh, man, how do you get them there? They're going to get themselves there, I think, is the real answer. Like, at the end of the day, people ask me like, how do you market? What's your strategy? Who are you going after?

And I'll never forget sitting on this carrier call. It was like 30 days into being an official, the atomic employee. And the carrier was like, so what kind of agents are you going after? Like 10 to 15 size employees, certain amount of revenue. Are they all in Ohio? Do you want some in California? Are they all trucking? Are they all personal lines, more commercial lines?

And I said, I actually got off the call and I talked to Seth and I was like, we need personas. Like we need to be able to tell these people what they're like, because, you know, this was a big call. and I was frustrated that I didn't have an answer. And I realized very slowly over the last couple months that the answer isn't in the makeup of their business, but the makeup of the leadership's culture and where they want to go. I think this industry, and we tried to start this at Agency Nation, but the industry needs to wake up. and try to want to do things better, be better, right? We sell a product that people have to buy,

and I think that almost gives us an excuse to be a little lazy. You know, we're not the restaurant in New York that's gonna go out of business because, you know, there's cooler food that's being sold down the road. People need what we're selling, right? And I think that, I think that, I think we're looking for the type of agent and the type of agency that is willing to be really vulnerable about what's actually going on in their industry, going on in their agency. And take a look.

I mean, that's what data is. It's transparency and vulnerability. It's not, I mean, at the end of the day, it's not like some cool quick fix that's going to, you plug this into that. And then, boom, your agency is like super spectacular and rainbow filled. And no, it's going to take a lot of very courageous work. And so we're looking for the people who see that. And they actually want to take an honest look at their business and stand in front of the mirror and say, I want to do that.

Like I want to move forward. I don't really, I'm not in the atomic because of cool technology. I could care less about the technology part of it. I think that we're we need, we're looking for those people who want to be. better and do better and this is just a way a vehicle to get there right it's not the end the technology isn't the end in and of itself it's a way to become closer to your best self and a way to become closer to the partners in the industry so how are we going to get them there like i i mean the industry at the end of the day either wants it or they don't i can't make me on work Seth can't make me on work

i can't shove it down people's throats either they're going to hear the message and we're going to attract the right people and they'll walk in and be like, I've been looking for this. Thank you. Or we're not and we're going to go out of business. And that's going to be, that's going to be, you know, just I guess the story that was told. Right. And hopefully it won't be because we didn't do a good job. And I also just, I hope that the industry, I hope the industry wants it. Right. I hope they're willing to walk through the front doors. So I don't know. Does that help? Yeah. No, I think, I think that I think you started with the perfect answer. answer, right? Which is they're going to get there themselves. And what I think, I think that what people trust,

if I'm just looking from the outside, is that Seth has a vision and a desire to create a high level. And he's partnered with someone who can tell that story in a way that no one else can. And I believe that if, If there is anyone who could do it, it will be you guys. Again, I think your honesty in that, look, it may work, it may not work. I think that's the case with everything. And to go in in any other fashion is just kind of shallow hubris. But I do believe personally, and it's why I'm just so, I was so excited for you when you decide to take this on because this is no small order.

And obviously you know that. But I think that if there is anyone that can do it, it's you guys. Some of the other partners you have are absolutely the right people that you need to be in business with. And it's going to be incredibly fun to watch, man. So I appreciate you coming on the show. I've taken up way too much of your time today. I'm so glad that we didn't talk about data that much because that's not really, I wanted to talk about other stuff. Because you're talking about data a lot and anyone goes and listens to Be Atomic podcast,

I 100% recommend it. I listen to it. You're going to hear all kinds of different stuff, all kinds of great interviews. And it's absolutely a must listen and watch the YouTube channel. Like, again, even if you never get on neon, the things that you are talking about and that YouTube channel are so important,

whether you ever consider neon, ever as a product, or Be Atomic or any of Atomic services, that YouTube channel is a much. must subscribe. I'll have that linked up at Ryanhanly.com forward slash Sidney, Sid, where, if they want to get at you directly, though, what's the best spot to connect with you? Any social media platform, my email is Sid, S.YD. at Batomic.com. So you can always shoot me an email. And then Batomic.com is our website. There's a form on there that you can sign up for. And yeah, those are the three places.

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