Finding Peak w/ Ryan Hanley - Titans of the Insurance Industry Share Their View of the Future

Starting point is 00:00:00 You've finally broken loose from work. Three friends, one tea time, and then the text. Honey, there's water in the basement. Not exactly how you pictured your Saturday. That's when you call us, Cincinnati Insurance. We always answer the call, because real protection means showing up, even when things are in the rough. Cincinnati Insurance, let us make your bad day better.

Starting point is 00:00:26 Find an agent at CINFIN.com. holidays. Want to give your host a gift? Consider subscribing, rating, and reviewing the show this holiday season. It really helps the show grow. From all of us at Believe, have a Merry Christmas, everyone, and a happy holiday. Crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today, we have an absolute, tremendous conversation for you. This is another repackaged episode, and not that I'm trying to screw you. you guys but just had two really good non-podcast conversations that I thought were worth sharing with you all here if you hadn't otherwise listened to them or wanted to listen to them again.

Starting point is 00:01:24 In this case, it's a panel that I did for the IA Evolve Digital Conference. Now, this is a conference put on by SIA, and I had the opportunity to interview a panel of people that just do not, you know, this caliber of individual, of leader in our industry just does not come together that often. And I thought the panel went really, really well. I mean, a lot of times these things can be kind of bore and dry and stale. And I'd like to believe that this was not one of those conversations. Everybody came to play. Everyone came with comments and energy. And it was a really really good conversation. And I asked some of my colleagues at SA A proper if they'd be willing to let me push it out through the podcast channel and they agreed. So what you're going to get is a

Starting point is 00:02:10 conversation between me, Amy Zupon, the CEO of Vertefor, Matt Massiello, the CEO of SIA, and Tyler Asher, the head of all IA distribution for Liberty Mutual. These are three power players who gave up an hour each of their time and about a half hour, 45 minutes of their time in a previous call to game plan for this conversation. And I think that hopefully shows you that for these individuals to give up that amount of time to something like this, that they wanted to share this message. It wasn't just going to be repackaged, kind of gobbly gook. It was going to be their thoughts, their feelings, you know, where their attention is actually focused. And I think that's exactly what we got. So I wouldn't be resharing this if I didn't think

Starting point is 00:02:53 it was incredibly valuable. I do. I think you're going to enjoy it. There's a lot of great insights. It was actually the kickoff panel for the conference. There were a whole bunch of other speakers. James Jenkins, Josh Gurley, Nick Ayers, there's a bunch of others. I'm forgetting them. Sierra Gravier, there was a bunch of them, awesome speakers. So what I'll say to you is if you enjoyed this podcast episode or this conversation that I have, you can actually rewatch right now for free all the other speakers, all the other conversations, all the other conversations, listen to them,

Starting point is 00:03:35 You just go to I-A-E-A-E-A-E-V-O-A-E-V-E-E-E-E-O-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-O-V-E-E-E-E-E-O-E-E-E-O-E-E-E-E-E-A-E-E-E-A-E-E-E-E-E-A-E-R-E-E-E-R-E-E-RILL-E-E-RILL-E-E-RILLI-MMAN of information that I think is valuable to you. Sometimes I do solo episodes, sometimes I do interview episodes, sometimes I have multiple guests on. And in this case, sometimes when I deliver content or I'm part of content in other places, I try to get that recording and push it back out through this vein so that you get access to that when possible,

Starting point is 00:04:25 not always possible, but when possible. And in this case, we're able to do it. So I want to say thank you to my colleagues at SA for let me push this out. I hope that you'll go check out. I evolve and all the other speakers. And I hope you enjoy this conversation. As always, I love you for listening to this show.

Starting point is 00:04:42 And if you find this information valuable, if you find this content valuable, please share it with a friend. Go to on social, text to someone, email to someone, share with your team. More ears listening, more ears getting involved in these types of conversations, this type of content helps push our industry forward. And that's why I do the show. So love you guys for listening. Let's get on to this amazing panel from IA. Evolve.

Starting point is 00:05:09 Hello, everybody, and welcome to the opening kickoff panel of IA. Evolve. I'm going to do very short intros in a second for our panelists. We have an absolute rock star panel here. I feel like something funky must be going on in the universe to have such power players, like all this gravity in one place. My computer is also wonky, so the delay is on purpose, just so you guys know. I did that for effect. All right.

Starting point is 00:05:41 So before we get to our panel and get into what I think is going to be an absolutely tremendous conversation, I just want to give a big shout out and thank you to all of you who are attending. I have always as an annual event and the entire SIA ecosystem family is very happy to put this on and happy that you would choose to spend time with us. There's a lot of good presentations. that are going to happen throughout the course of the next two days, this panel being the first of what should be a wonderful event. That being said, just a couple housekeeping items before we get there.

Starting point is 00:06:15 There is a Q&A section that you'll see. I'm not exactly sure what you're seeing, but somewhere in the screen that you're looking at, there's a Q&A button. When you have questions, pop them in that Q&A section. We will get to those questions. Now, if your questions are terrible, I am not going to read them on this.

Starting point is 00:06:34 thing. But all of those terrible questions will be answered by either the Verte4 team, the Liberty Mutual team, or the SAA team afterwards. So people will get back to you about those things. But if you ask about like, hey, Tyler, how come our commission rates aren't 45% instead 20%? I'm not asking that question. So any pertinent, good, thoughtful questions that you have, we absolutely will try to get as many of those to our panel as we can. and but any like really tactical kind of very specific questions please still ask them that's the point and then someone from the team of whichever respective organization you are asking that question we'll get back to you so i want you to i want you to ask those questions and then there's a

Starting point is 00:07:23 group chat thing there's like a whole bunch of features but really the one i'm going to be watching is the q and a so use that q and a once we get there also at least again you gave me some few other things that I'm kind of forgetting now that we got going. But the Q&A was the big one that we're going to follow up after, and there are tons of great panels, so just keep watching. And we appreciate you being here. Okay. With that, let's get on to our panel.

Starting point is 00:07:48 I'm going to do very brief introductions because I don't think the individuals who we have on panel here today need a tremendous amount of bio-red. And really, I don't want to waste any more time on non-content related things. Also, Christopher, congratulations on not actually asking a question, but being the first one to use the tool. So whatever prize that gets you, wonderful. So our first guest is Amy Zupon. She is the CEO of Vertefort. Amy, it is a pleasure to have.

Starting point is 00:08:23 Tyler Asher, who you cannot see. He is coming in via telephone because technology. Tyler is president of IA distribution for Liberty Mutual. And we also have who is on the line and you can see Matt Masiello, the CEO of SIA. So I want to give a big welcome to all of you and thank you for taking time out of what I know are very busy schedules to be with us here today. That being said, let's get to our very first question. All right. So I'm going to throw a softball up and we'll start.

Starting point is 00:09:01 We'll start with A. Our very first question that I wanted to get into, just to kind of get things rolling here, is that there's lots of things happening always in our space. Regardless of when we do this, always things happening. We work in an industry that is always evolving. I guess my first question for you, Amy, is like, what is one trend that just something, something that's happening that just has your attention? When you see an article on it, maybe you just pause for a second and it kind of catches you. What's one thing that's catching your eye right now that's going on that you find interesting and relevant to our time? Yeah, it's a great question, Ryan. You know, I've been in insurance now for six years here at Vertreux, and it is hard to believe. It's actually gone super

Starting point is 00:09:48 fast, but there's so much going on in our industry right now and specifically around technology. You know, when I think about this question, where I might go is I might highlight the increasing amount of M&A activity that's happening in the agency space right now. In reality, it shows no sign in slowing down any time soon. In fact, it's picking up. We like to follow the agency and broker buyer index. And in Q2, what it told us is it showed a 74% increase in acquisitions over Q1. And deal count is actually up 16% year on year despite economic headwinds that are around. So, you know, and yet at the same time, there are still similar numbers. of independent agencies out there as there was when I joined six years ago.

Starting point is 00:10:33 And so what that's telling you is the bigger getting bigger, they're getting more complex, there's no question about that, but that newer, smaller agencies are popping up every day. And for a vendor like us, you know, it really means that we're constantly investing in our solutions to help automate and simplify things because large agencies need to handle the complexity that comes with acquisitions, conversions, how to help folks clean up data, and new agencies that are popping up need simple, automated solutions that can get you up and running quickly. And I just, I find, I find the amount of M&A activity and the amount of independent agencies staying about the same just to be a pretty fascinating tribute to the strength of an independent channel. And do you just quick follow up in there,

Starting point is 00:11:20 do you think that, you know, whether we actually dip into a to a real recession or not or how big it is, whether it's a shallow or it ends up being deep. Do you think that what does feel like some sort of slowdown, you know, to agree with no one can really tell necessarily, do you think that's going to have an impact or do you see on M&A activity or do you think we're just in a time where we have enough, enough individuals whose career has hit a point where they're starting to consider making a move that we're just, this is just going to be a continuing trend, that it's just going to continue to increase. You know, it's obviously hard to predict the future.

Starting point is 00:11:58 I'm not a crystal ball reader about what's going to happen. But my perspective is that, you know, if we were starting to see those slowdowns, we would have seen them by now. There's a tremendous amount of money that continues to be invested in the space. And I think for the foreseeable future, we're just going to see that continue to go in that direction. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I know at least, you know, the people that I talk to, they're seeing all the same stuff. There's, you know, I got a buddy that has a certain type of agency that like almost on a weekly basis he has someone new pitching him.

Starting point is 00:12:33 It's just incredible what's flying around. And it's a very interesting time from M&A. So next and Tyler, this is not an order of importance. It's just in order of how I want to ask the questions. I'm going to go to Matt next. So Tyler, be prepared. You know, I know you're the third one. So you got, you're kind of playing roulette with these questions here.

Starting point is 00:12:53 But Matt, what trend are you looking at? It can be M&A 2 or whatever, but what's catching your eye that's stopping you when you see a piece of information or report or a study that's on your brain? Yeah, it's sort of like sticking your hand in a candy jar right now to answer that question. I mean, there's a lot of sort of fascinating trends that are going on out there. And so when I thought about this, I was thinking granular or sort of more global. And I'm actually going to go one step just above where Amy went, where Amy was on sort of M&A. and in the health of the industry. You know, I was once told, by the way,

Starting point is 00:13:31 when I was the youngest person in the room, that one day I would wake up and I would be the oldest person in the room, which I actually think on this screen I am. And what's fascinated is in all the years, I've been doing this without exception, I've been told that independent agencies are dinosaurs, we're going to go away,

Starting point is 00:13:49 we don't deliver a value proposition to the consumer, the carriers don't need us, the internet banks, and sure tech, everyone's going to put us out of business. And what I find fascinating, even on the tails of, you know, certain large consulting organizations, even in the last five years, sort of counting independent agencies down and out, it's the strongest I've ever seen the channel. We are converting exclusive channel business over to the independent agency channel. We are seeing, I think the direct response, you know, I won't say sort of plateauing, but

Starting point is 00:14:25 You know, they do have a limited product offering. We're seeing carriers double down on their independent agency investment. We're seeing obviously technology partners invest significantly into the channel. And so, uh, just, you know, Amy's M&A piece is, is a huge piece. But I just think, you know, we should believe in what we do because other people believe in it now too. And I think that that's a fascinating trend. You know, I say all the time right now, this is simply the most exciting time to be in this business. And you know, you started an agency.

Starting point is 00:14:57 There are thousands of people starting agencies right now. They're doing it because it's a great opportunity. You know, recession, market, economy, debt markets, M&A, doesn't matter. It's a great time to be in this business. So that's a great trend. And I might add one point to what you just- I know.

Starting point is 00:15:15 Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, I might add one point to what Matt just said because I love it is, you know what I got here six years ago, that was the same comment made to me, which is, hey, you know, the independent agency channel, it's going to diminish over time and it's all to go to direct and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think one of the things that's super interesting right now, if you look at the data, is that the amount of premium that's actually going through the independent agency channel is actually

Starting point is 00:15:39 going up. It's not going the other direction. So it's going up. And, you know, I think that's falling away from the captives a bit if you look at the premium. But, and direct is also coming. So that's not something to ignore and, you know, make sure you're multi-channel and all of those things. But I that the premium going through the channel is only going up. Does anyone else feel like direct business is really just like a feeder program for independent business? Like I love when I see a new direct competitor because I'm like they're going to scoop up all this business, do a really terrible job and then we're just going to take it off from them

Starting point is 00:16:14 like in two or three years. Like that's, I don't know, that's always been my perspective. That's every time I see like a new insure tech that's going to disintermediate, I'm like, this is going to be great. I'm going to get a ton of calls in like two years from all their customers. Sorry, that's my perspective. Yeah, maybe. David, your question around what is MMA for?

Starting point is 00:16:34 MMA stands for mixed martial arts. We are talking about M&A and also known as mergers and acquisitions. So, sorry. Sorry, Tyler. I just wanted to clear that up real quick. Oh, no, perfect. And I would, you know, honestly, I would just kind of add to what Matt and Amy said. I mean, I think the headline that is soon to be written is that independent agents are going

Starting point is 00:16:56 continue to win. You know, the data from market share shows that if anything, the channel is actually getting bigger. You have many carriers that are pivoting models to really exclusively focus on independent agents. And the prospects at large continue to be, you know, very advantageous for the independent agency system. I think we're in this environment right now, you know, I think many of those on the webinar will attest to this. Like service has been something that's been hard to come by over the last couple of years, whether it's staffing shortages, whether it's everyone being remote. But I really do think in the years ahead, there's going to be a flight to quality service, a flight to advice. And Ryan, your point on the direct writers, you know, I'd say

Starting point is 00:17:40 they're very much targeting a different customer. And it's customers that truly get to a point where they value advice where independent agents are a tremendous fit in terms of the value proposition that agents provide in what consumers are interested in. And I really do think that independent agents right now are better positioned than they have ever been. And again, the headline that has yet to be written is that independent agents will continue to gain market share and continue to thrive in the environment ahead. And if I could, Ryan, just jump in on Tyler's coattails there. I think it's sort of fascinating when we talk about your comment of that I go about the direct channel and and Tyler's comments look there is some business that just

Starting point is 00:18:27 belongs in the direct channel and we as independent agencies shouldn't compete for it uh it tends to be lower limit lower premium higher risk low loyalty low commission if we happen to write it uh and so i'm a firm believer that you know that business does belong uh in a direct channel and and you know we should fight within our weight class which is do business with people that that are looking for the value that we deliver. Yeah, I think there's also, you know, one of the things that since I've been in the business for 17 years and one of the things that I've really loved, and I'm specifically always focused on the marketing side. So I don't know other parts of the business like you guys do. But from a branding, marketing, content, you know, voice perspective,

Starting point is 00:19:16 there are so many more independent agents. And while I would love to see the carriers step their game up in general, I think. I think carriers as well have started to really dial in their message around what our value proposition is and get much better at telling it and telling it more frequently, which is starting to take customers who may have given some of the direct channel competitors a shot. They're coming to us first, which I think is a, you know, and again, some of that is subjective. It's just, you know, maybe a lot of it is my two and a half years at Roeb, but, but it's, we're subjectively internally starting to see that people who, may have been direct channel consumers are coming to us because they're seeing messaging, they're hearing messaging that resonates that maybe just in years past they didn't see from us. And I think that's a really good sign for what, you know, all of you have said, you know,

Starting point is 00:20:08 anecdotally. Great. So one just one just quick question. Amy, you had referenced a buyer index and Kerry had a question just if you could say the name of it again. Yeah, it's the agency and broker buyer index. It's just something that gets published every quarter that we can fundamentally look at. And what I can do is look it up here and get you a link and send it out. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay. Jake, we're going to get to your question towards the end. You're trying to make me bury the lead here. So all right. So thank you for all that on the trends and the back and forth. That was tremendous. So I think we're all in agreement. And obviously we're talking to the office.

Starting point is 00:20:56 audience, the right audience here as well, but we wouldn't be on this call if we didn't feel that way. But I do think it's reassuring to hear from people in your positions that you're seeing what I think most of us are feeling is that we're on the upswing and then there's a lot of things happening. One of the trends that, and I'm going to put this to Matt first, it's going to feel like a softball. I know that. Don't start hating on me when I ask this question. But if you listen to my own podcast, you will hear that this is the way I'm I felt for a while well before any of my relationship with SIA is that it very much is feeling to me like we can't do it alone anymore, right? Not not the, not you can't, so so please don't start hating me in the Q&A, but it feels very much like whether it's joining a cluster or an aggregator or or or partnering with another agency or a group of agencies, whether that's regionally or based on an industry or whatever.

Starting point is 00:21:56 that very much feels like the future to me. And having worked in and or run agencies both outside of a aggregator slash network and now inside, um, pros and cons to every agency, but I, to me, this feels like the future. Being part of a large group, having some, having some access to carriers that you didn't have, taking some of the pressure off early on. You know, we're talking a lot about this M&A activity where, you know, agencies that have been around for a long time are being scooped up. Well, all these young startup agencies that are filling the gap behind them, it's very difficult to get appointments, especially when choice is one of our big value propositions. If you can only get one or two direct appointments, that is a handcuff.

Starting point is 00:22:47 So by joining a network or what have you, you're able to get access and really hit the ground running. So, you know, Matt, I wanted to put to you, you know, this idea of being part of something bigger, of joining forces with other agencies or, you know, whatever, this network model, you know, where do you see that going? Is this a trend you're seeing in SIA? Are you seeing in the broader ecosystem? And, you know, just what other comments do you have on this particular concept? Yeah, and I'm going to be generic in my response and let my peers also sort of come around on this.

Starting point is 00:23:22 I think sort of small businesses in general in the United States need to be part of other organizations because that's what allows us to remain small independent businesses. What is it? 80% of the U.S. economy is small business. And it's hard to go it on your own if you're not partnering, collaborating in a buying group, whatever the case may be. 70% of the independent agency channels under $1.2 million of commission income. So we're small businesses. So you need to be part of something. You know, the carrier access thing, you know, agencies can access carriers anywhere right now.

Starting point is 00:23:59 They can access carriers through wholesalers, through joining networks. It's sort of table stakes. What it ultimately becomes after that is what is the value proposition that they're looking for in any sort of a relationship? Because it is more than carriers. It is more than just income. It becomes thought leadership. It becomes technology.

Starting point is 00:24:20 it becomes collaborating on how agencies are going to look into the future. And we'll sort of pivot that question just a little bit is it really isn't just joining a network or a cluster or an aggregator or something like that. It's being active participant in technology user groups. It's being an active participant with some of the carriers, right? We'll give Tyler some opportunity to talk about agent for the future and the investments they've made there. But I think we all have to be sort of collaborating and part of something as we move forward, especially as small businesses. None of us can afford to go out and sort of

Starting point is 00:25:01 change the world today. But if we all get together, we can do that. And, you know, 20 or 30 years ago as independent agencies, we would sit here and say, well, we're just going to wait for the agency management systems to solve this problem. Or we're just going to wait for the carriers to solve these problems. And the basic fact is, is they're looking for us to help them solve those problems. And so we should be active participants in that. And scale brings you to the table to be active participants in the future of not just how

Starting point is 00:25:30 you're going to grow your agency and your individual business, but how we're going to grow the industry overall. Yeah. We'll go kind of reverse word. Tyler, what's your thoughts on this particular topic? Joining forces, we'll say, is the general concept here. Yeah, I actually loved how Matt, you know, framed that. I think, you know, we like to say going independent doesn't mean going it alone.

Starting point is 00:25:57 And so I think there's lots of ways for agencies to pick up scale, whether that's being a part of something, whether that's tapping into programs that carriers offer. We certainly, Liberty Mutual Safeco, you know, our commitment to agents is to do more than really anyone in the carrier side to help agents win. We have a ton of programs to help agents from digital marketing to their websites, hiring, training producers, to loans to bring new staff in. We have programs that really cover everything. And so for agencies, I think it really just means tapping into the resources that are truly available. I mean, we are in an industry where scale increasingly does matter depending on the aspirations for the organization. So there are

Starting point is 00:26:45 small agents that are serving a local community and they're content or they're happy with, you know, how big the agency's gotten, the success they've reached, that's fine. But if an agency owner has an aspiration to continue to grow, to continue to expand, you know, scale starts to matter. And so, you know, we see that certainly on the agency side. That is certainly true on the carrier side as well. You know, making sure that you've got the ability to continue to invest in the future, the ability to bring a new technology, the ability to hire new talent, the ability to really invest in marketing and brand all comes down to scale and being able to invest in a smart way. So I really do believe that scale matters.

Starting point is 00:27:27 There's lots of ways for agencies to get support. And again, I love the title of this panel transforming our industry together because I do think that's ultimately what it's going to take for us to win. And together is a partnership, you know, between carriers, between agencies and between all of the technology providers and all the service providers and kind of a broad agency ecosystem all working together to ensure the channel is really set up for success Amy anything to add on this topic so I loved what what both Matt and Tyler had to say in all honesty I think the two things I would kind of build on is I mean I obviously don't have

Starting point is 00:28:08 the experience of being an aggregator or a cluster or an agency right but I'll draw the parallel to to being a software company. At Vertigo, we can't do it alone either, right? We 100% believe in an open platform from that perspective. We 100% belong to groups where we participate with technology companies that look and feel like us that work in other industries, right? I mean, you really need to understand best practice,

Starting point is 00:28:33 new trends. I'll take cybersecurity is a great example, right? What are all the threats? Well, our head of cyber participates in all sorts of things. And that's where we get all that insight that helps us to protect you. And so kind of building on what Matt said, it's not just us in our industry.

Starting point is 00:28:47 I think it's across the board for small businesses. You really need to have those support systems that help you do the things that you don't have to go it alone. And then you kind of building on what Tyler said on the title of, we do this together. I find this industry to be fascinating from the perspective of it's a co-opetition type of industry. And I actually love that part of it, right?

Starting point is 00:29:11 I never before have I been in an industry, where you feel such a sense of camaraderie and support across Asians. At the same time, you're out necessarily competing for business, super cool. And when you look at technology and the opportunity that we have to actually drive impact for our users, for our end consumers, it's going to take the folks like Tyler in the carrier community. It's going to take all of you on the phone, and it's going to take people like me working together to really kind of break through and drive some of those advancements. So I think that together were it's a really important angle of what Tyler was saying.

Starting point is 00:29:47 This was one of the most important lessons that I learned launching Rogue Risk was just how alone you feel if you don't join something, a group, a network, a networking group, you know, a mastermind. If you don't, you don't reach out if you don't get involved. One, our industry, everyone is so willing to help each other, which is amazing. Right now, I can tell you there is an S-I have a buddy, S-I-member who's watching this panel, then he's doing David Carruthers killing commercial thing this afternoon, and then tomorrow he's going to Chris Paradiso's mastermind. So in two days, four different groups, all this cross-pollination of ideas, everyone's so willing to share.

Starting point is 00:30:32 It just, that to me is, I think, one of the most redeeming. qualities of our industry and I think it's so incredibly important. And if people do feel like they're on an island, put a question in the Q&A. If I can't find you a place to join and learn one of our panelists will or someone in their organization will find you someplace that you can connect. So if you're out there and you're listening to this and you're feeling like you're, you don't know where to turn, you don't know where to go, put your information in and we'll, whether it's, you know, someone who's involved in this or not. we'll find you a place.

Starting point is 00:31:09 You know, but before you go on to your next question, I think this is actually a cool evolution of the industry, right? Because this was an industry where we all liked our box, right? Everyone had to stay in their lane and stay in their box. And, you know, we had non-competes and non-piracies and confidentiality agreements and we didn't want to share and collaborate. And as some of us got more and more involved in technology over the years, and I think Amy makes a good point coming in from the outside with technology

Starting point is 00:31:34 is you did see things like open source. and collaborating on moving technologies forward. In the insurance industry, we didn't do that. We didn't do that. We all stayed in our lanes. And I think that we are evolving as an industry because of this willingness to collaborate and share. And it's sort of a rising tide thing.

Starting point is 00:31:54 And there's some that still wanna just stay in their lanes. But I think where everyone's making this investment, including their time and treasure to help others, it's a really big deal in this industry. I think it's a great, it's a great trend for us to evolve because if we don't evolve, we will die. And we are evolving right now. What's up, guys?

Starting point is 00:32:18 Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show. In an exchange for that, I need your help. If you're loving this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, I would love for you to subscribe, share, comment if you're on YouTube, leave a rating review if you're on Spotify or Apple iTunes, etc. This helps the show grow. It helps me bring more guests in. We have a tremendous lineup of people coming in, men and women who've done incredible things,

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Starting point is 00:33:17 and I love for you to leave a comment about the show because I read all the comments, or if you're on Apple or Spotify, leave a rating, review of this show. I love you for listening to this show, and I hope you enjoy it listening as much as I do, creating the show for you. All right, I'm out of here.

Starting point is 00:33:33 Peace. Let's get back to the episode. So talking about evolution of the industry, only one question so far, 30 minutes in has been about download. So that's a big, that's a big positive for the evolution of our industry right there. Also, April says it is much easier to embrace change when you're not on an island by yourself. Amen to that April. I appreciate you sharing that sentiment. I think that's wonderful. So all right. So kind of keeping this kind of idea going. We've, uh, set up some trends and talk a little bit about how we can't do it alone. The next thing I want to talk about is how do we actually choose our partners or our collaborators? How do we make these decisions?

Starting point is 00:34:16 What is the filter that we pass people through? And again, I tend to think about these things as filters because there's no absolutes, right? All of us will be different and with different partners, all the criteria might not always be the same. So I don't want to, I don't expect anyone to give. Here are the seven things you need to do if you want to, you know, know, be part of Vertifor's Orange Partner Program or something. That's what I'm asking for. What I'm asking for is from your position, from your seat, what are some of the high-level

Starting point is 00:34:45 filters? And Amy, we'll start with you. What are just some of the high-level filters that you're looking for when you're, you or your team is considering a partner or a collaborator that you would like to bring in because it is a big decision when, especially with the size of the organizations that are on this call, when you decide partnering with someone, it's news. And I am positive that you're aware of the gravity of that. So just anything you can share around some of the filters used to make those decisions would be wonderful.

Starting point is 00:35:14 Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, we did start that Orange Partner program with the philosophy of being open and building on relationships and collaborating with others to build things, right? I think, you know, first and foremost, me, partnership, whether it's about the partner program or it's about our customer relationship or anything, partnership is about trust and communication at the end of the day. Right? You know, relationships are never perfect. They're never, you know, everything doesn't always go exactly as you expected, but there is no substitute for having base level trust and good, honest, open communication. And to me, that is like first and foremost, that's table stakes for thinking about who a partner is. I think the second thing for us is, you know, you're looking for a win-win, right, in a partnership. It's good for you. It's good for me. Those partnerships live, right? And so I think a lot of times, We're looking for solutions that solve the problems that our customers actually are facing right now as we think about who our partners are. This is something that matters to their business. It's going to make a difference. And it does so in a way that automates and simplifies things for them, meaning we're not looking just to have a partner because it's a flashy new object.

Starting point is 00:36:25 We want to actually do something that's physically going to solve a problem. And again, that kind of goes back to the second point I was making about win-win, right? We're looking for a win for whoever we're partnering with and a win for us at the end of the day. So just some high-level philosophies as we're thinking about things. Tyler, what about you guys? I shared with you in our pre-call that my buddy Chris Klein, who used to work for Westfield, he said he had to hire an assistant just to filter the partnership calls that they would receive like on a daily basis. So I'm sure either you or someone in your organization is probably pretty similar.

Starting point is 00:37:02 So how do you think through what could potentially be a partner or a collaborator when you're making those decisions? Yeah, I mean, I think partners, collaborators come in lots of shapes and sizes from, you know, agency partners to technology vendors or places where we might integrate, you know, fully for benefit of an agent. But I'd say broadly what we're looking for is a partner that shares our philosophy to Amy's point, win-win. you know, we're driving mutually beneficial partnerships, that we share a philosophy for what's ahead for the channel and that we share a commitment to continue to advance to push the channel forward, to help the channel evolve. So, you know, for an agency partner, we're looking for someone who maintains a growth mindset and is really looking to continue to drive the business forward. That means always looking to add new producers where possible. that means always being willing to take some risks on new technologies to try new ways to interact with customers. You know, certainly, like the – I know there's a question in the chat about getting direct access to carriers.

Starting point is 00:38:08 The biggest thing actually isn't, you know, whether you're a scratch agency, it's whether you've got a good marketing plan, whether you're building a strong agency culture, and whether you're really maintaining kind of a growth mindset in terms of how do you take the business to the next level? How do you always ask the question of what's next? So broadly, that's who, you know, we look to partner with because it aligns to our interest. You know, I think from an agency, you know, partner perspective, we do business with a lot of agents, you know, about 24,000 retail agents across the country out of about 36,000. So we see partners of all different sizes, shapes, you know, operating models. But really the agents that we most find success with are those that really, again, meet those core commitment. to want to grow, meet those commitments of wanting to do good in their local community,

Starting point is 00:39:00 and are deeply committed to advancing the channel. And from a technology partner, same thing. You know, obviously we're looking for someone who's tech forward, easy to work with, easy to integrate with, looking for someone who is committed to advancing the channel, who's willing to help at times when necessary push agents forward, whether with that digital adoption or whether that's a new technology. I'm not going to say download the new tech. But other technology advances, just making sure that we just align on those key tenants.

Starting point is 00:39:35 Matt, what about you? Yeah, I mean, I actually love the question because it goes back to, you know, how excited it is to be in the industry and how important being part of other organizations are. And I sort of look at sort of these partnerships and collaboration as bookends. and the first part of it starts with you've got to like them. And then the second part of the bookend is you have to have the same goal. Everything else that happens in between there is a result of a good relationship with somebody that you like and can work with and the same goal because ultimately you want to find the alternative paths to get to that goal.

Starting point is 00:40:15 We can't be linear in this industry with, well, this is the way it needs to be done or this is the way we've always done it or this is what the carrier is. require, this is what the technology platforms require. It's all about the consumer. And so finding that nonlinear process of people you like that you can work with that have common goals and then you can sort of figure everything else out in between. Yeah, the one thing that I wanted to add is the partner or collaborator has to actually solve a real problem. There's a lot of tools and insure techs out there and specifically that do cool things, but they don't actually solve problems that agencies actually have or care about. And that can be difficult sometimes to parse through

Starting point is 00:41:04 because you're like, oh, wow, look at this thing and it's awesome and it does this and this and this. And then when you actually look at the workflows of an agency, you're like, yeah, but, you know, we don't really need that. It doesn't really make our lives better. It's just different clicks, not less clicks, I guess, sometimes. And that can be that can be a challenge. And the other one, I'm sure you see, and no one has to comment on this. But I just remember this from a previous life with a, you know, company that fired me. But we would get a lot of people that wanted to do business with a because there were like,

Starting point is 00:41:40 there were like slide decks in incubators where it was like get a partnership with X. and that will amplify you, right? So it wasn't that they even wanted necessarily to do business with you. They just wanted to be able to put on their sales deck that they had you as a partner. You know, it's just, it's a very difficult thing. So I just hope everyone listening knows that this is one of the hardest decisions. And these guys, I think, were all very kind and thoughtful in the responses. But it can be very difficult to choose who you partner with.

Starting point is 00:42:13 And sometimes I know outside emails. how come this company won't partner with these guys and XYZ? And sometimes you might not understand, but I just want everyone to realize that this is a hard thing to sort through because for every great company that would be a really true value ad, there's a dozen or more similar-looking companies that could be an incredible waste of time or a complete fail. And it is a big decision.

Starting point is 00:42:38 Ryan, maybe I can comment on that if that's okay. I think, you know, you hit on kind of one of my favorite phrases, actually, as we think about insuretech investment. You know, it's hard to believe when I got here in InsureTech, there was about $2 billion being invested in a given year, right? We're now like over 15, 16, right? And, you know, Ryan's spot on, right? Not all of it is actually helpful to you.

Starting point is 00:43:01 And navigating that is a really complicated thing. It's the sole purpose why we created the Orange Partner program. I think it's what networks and clusters and, you know, groups that you can join can help you navigate at the end of the day. But in SureTech, because it's cool and interesting and kind of looks fun, but if it doesn't solve a real problem for your business, it could actually add extra clicks to your workflows, which is exactly what we're not trying to do, right? Not helpful, not what we're trying to do in the independent agent channel. We're trying to simplify things so that we can give you time back at the end of the day. So navigating that's a really big challenge, and I think that's where networks, clusters, companies like us can help do.

Starting point is 00:43:43 Yeah, yeah. All right. So we're going to pivot a little, just in the line of question. This has been tremendous. I feel like we've done a really good job of developing a narrative here, but we do have some good questions. I have a couple of places I want to go. I want to give a quick shout out to Jessica, who said, agreed as a new agent, I feel like I would have sank without my SIA support team. So, you know, just stroking some egos out there, loving it. Great. Thank you. I appreciate your feedback, Jessica. That's wonderful. And it took us full. one minutes to get our first question about a court. So again, the evolution of the industry. This is tremendous. All right. So I want the last kind of scheduled question that I had. And I actually want to, I'll give credit where it's due to Amy. This was this was her suggestion. So after this, we'll pivot to the questions that have been asked in the Q&A. So if you, if you have a question for our panel, please get that in the Q&A right now. We have about 20 minutes left on our discussion. So we're going to hit this question I'm about to ask.

Starting point is 00:44:47 And then we'll get into your question. So if you have them, pop them in. And remember, if you think it's silly, I will be your silly filter. So just get the questions out there. Keep them rolling. All right. So Amy, as this was your question, I'm going to put it right back on you. What is one problem or a set of problems, whatever?

Starting point is 00:45:08 What is a problem that we haven't solved yet? What's a problem out there that we as an industry talk about, but just doesn't feel like we've dialed in on. Is there anything in particular or is there a set of things? Where are you at with this one? So I love this question because it's similar to the very first question we had on trends, which is there's so many pick from, right? So it's about where we want to focus and what we see.

Starting point is 00:45:33 I think for me, my hot button these days is, you know, we live in a complicated ecosystem. We got the uninsured. We got independent agents. We've got the wholesalers and MGAs. we got the carriers. And our collective purpose is to help our end customers get the best coverage they can for the right prices with as easy and experienced as possible. And we have not even come close to crossing the chasm of navigating the possibility of improving the way all of these stakeholders connect across one another. And we will never get to the point where we can

Starting point is 00:46:11 fundamentally drive that fast, personal experience if we don't address the connectivity challenges. And so from a technology perspective, I wake up every day and I think about that. And back to the comments we were talking about earlier about doing it together, what I learned the day I got here six years ago into insurance, I said, that connectivity problem, we can solve that. That's not a big deal. Well, what I underestimated was all the players in the game and how they all have to fundamentally come together to solve that problem and really get us to the tipping point. So I wake up every day having conversations with carriers, having conversations with agencies, working with my team on how we actually cross the chasm of where we really need to be to unlock the value we can deliver to the constituents by addressing connectivity. You mean you didn't realize how many rating systems are still run on COBOL?

Starting point is 00:47:07 I didn't explain that to you when you joined. Sorry, I can't help myself sometimes. You are 100% right. Connectivity is the problem. All right, Tyler, where would you go with this? Where would you go? You can obviously expand upon connectivity, which is, I agree, is probably the thing that we have not solved

Starting point is 00:47:34 or anything else that you're seeing. No, I mean, I think that's actually spot on. I mean, I think if we put the customer at the center of all that we collectively do. So agent, carrier, technology providers, there's a lot of work for us still to do. So we're all interacting in the service of the customer each and every day, whether that's a simple transaction like paying a bill, whether that's the customer trying to change their policy, potentially online, whether it's a claims filing. And yet the way we communicate and share data between, you know, agency, agency management systems and carrier still isn't quite

Starting point is 00:48:13 in real time. In fact, a lot of it's still, you know, overnight downloads. The ability for us to continue to meet customer needs is just really important. And so, you know, I would love for us to continue to come together and drive real solutions to continue to meet customers' expectations, which are only getting higher. You know, we work too hard in the independent agency system to bring customers in. We have to make sure that we're providing a differentiated experience. And it really is going to take all of us to solve that. We mentioned the complexity. You know, there's 36,000 agents in the country.

Starting point is 00:48:48 There's 350 carriers operating in the independent agency system. There's any number of technology providers. Some have a rating software from one vendor and AMS from the other. So you look at the combinations, permutations, if you will, of tech stacks, and it's a really complex problem. But it's one that if you come back to, you know, just mutual beneficiary. partnerships, if you come back to being aligned on the mission, it has to be in service of the customer. And so there has to be ways for us just to make sure that, you know, carrier systems,

Starting point is 00:49:22 the data that we have and collect is being shared with agents when they need it to provide exceptional service and vice versa. So I think there's still a lot for us to do in that space. I think individually, we've all made tremendous progress on empowering agents. I think together, we have an opportunity to truly transform the way we do business. and the way we differentiate ourselves from the direct channel. Yeah. So, Matt. Yeah, I'm going to actually start where Tyler ended, which was service, right?

Starting point is 00:49:54 You know, I think service is an area that we haven't solved for that we really need to. And it's that value proposition. And you think about, you know, Amy talking about connectivity and we talk about the consumer and we talk about the agency and we talk about the company. And when we look at an independent agency, we sort of bring. break down an independent agency into four sections, right? Marketing, operations, sales, and service. And we look at what digital capabilities or what new

Starting point is 00:50:22 capabilities can we provide into each of those segments within an agency. And we suggest that agencies sort of measure themselves on how they're doing in those four areas. And staying on service just for a second, we're not yet giving the consumer what they want relative to the service. And some of that is because we're not evolving our business model.

Starting point is 00:50:43 And so, you know, we as this industry need to figure out how we're going to service this business moving forward. Is it the connectivity and giving them the ability to do it themselves through interfacing with our AMS or our mobile apps? Is it carrier self-service in DIY? Is it carrier service centers? Is it agency VAs, which we're seeing as a big growth trend right now? And then to a certain degree, agencies do still need to be able to advocate for their consumers when those other things don't work. And, you know, I'm a big believer that not only do we as agencies need to find our value proposition in the insurance cycle as technology and digitization continues to come in, we've got to find our value proposition for the consumer. We also have to recognize that we need to find our value proposition for the carriers that we do business with.

Starting point is 00:51:37 And it's not being staffed for service. It is being staffed for sales and business development and productive interactions, meaningful interactions with our customers and our clients. And so, you know, service and getting that figured out of what that right mix is that's right for the consumer. And, you know, we hear a lot of agencies say, you know, my clients still want to talk to me. But the basic fact is, is most of the calls that go into the service centers are when agency, aren't open. And a lot of consumers, and if we think about ourselves and our own lives, we're busy. And so we want to do these things at night or on the weekend. And so we want to be

Starting point is 00:52:16 able to either go into the carrier system or into the agency's AMS platform to be able to do these things. And we're not solved, we're heading in the right direction, but we're not solving for that. And, you know, I always tend to steal a little bit of your thunder, Ryan, on this one, which is we have to use digital capabilities, but we have to human optimize them for when somebody wants to talk to a human being. And so this service thing, we've got to solve for it because at the end of the day, if we solve or get better on how we're providing better service capabilities to our customers when and where they want it, it gives us the ability to go after the business that's out there that might be in the exclusive channel, might even be some business in the direct channel,

Starting point is 00:52:56 it allows us to compete better and be more efficient and agile in our businesses. Yes. So every time someone says human optimized, I have to get a check in the mail for 20. Yeah. So. All right. So I have a, the, the podcaster in me can't help. I have to comment on just a couple of things here.

Starting point is 00:53:21 I think there was so much, so much in those answers that I thought was tremendous. One, here's the solution to carrier service centers. The first carrier that is willing to service other carriers business without getting their hooks into that business wins the carrier service center game. The reason carrier service center game. The reason carrier service centers, especially on the commercial line side, have not taken off. And I've talked to many, many agents about this topic is that there are too many accounts that have multiple carrier accounts. And the minute you have a multiple carrier account, the carrier service center model falls apart.

Starting point is 00:53:54 So that's the answer to that. So whoever wants to take that from a carrier perspective and run with it, the first one to do it wins. Because carrier service centers are an incredible resource. It's just the minute there's a multi-carrier solution, it doesn't work. So I, the reason that we haven't figured out service from my perspective is because we don't ask. It's actually simpler than all of that stuff. We don't ask how they want to be serviced. We force whatever solution we feel as best down our consumer's throats.

Starting point is 00:54:28 And that is a big part of the reason why I think adoption of tools like glove box, like carrier service centers, like other things, haven't taken off agency BAs. is because you're never going to have 100% of your client base using any one of those. It's really going to be a set of tools. And you need to ask your customer how they want to be serviced. You know, my dad is going to want to call. But my mom actually likes automated tools. So she would actually use a login thing. My dad still doesn't want to believe the internet exists.

Starting point is 00:54:58 So if you want both of those pieces of business, you need to have both options. Here is my question for you guys. And this is something that I just kind of hit me as you were talking. talking. So if we're talking about connectivity, and actually, Tyler, I'm going to put this question to you. So if we're talking about connectivity, it feels like everyone's trying to address this in a slightly different way. There is like a carrier-centric connectivity model where we're doing everything inside of the carrier, carrier dashboards. I mean, obviously Liberty has a very robust carrier dashboard. You can do all kinds of different servicing, all kinds of selling. You know, you guys would probably be

Starting point is 00:55:38 on the more innovative side of the spectrum. There's agent-centric miles, right? So this would be like agencies having their own user portal and pulling all that connectivity into the agency or maybe do an AMS, like AMS 360 or QQ. And then there's third party centric, which would be a tool I used before. It's just one of many.

Starting point is 00:55:59 I'm not trying to give whatever, just like the guys, like a glove box where the user, the connectivity is a third part. So in a perfect world, which one of those models do we think is that? Because all three models can't work, right? If we're trying to actually be connected, all three models, you know, all three can't work. Where do we see this going? Is it carrier-centric?

Starting point is 00:56:28 Is it agent-centric or is third part? I think, well, there's the, where's it going and what to do now? And I think right now, the biggest gap is making sure that we're serving customers in the way they need to be served today. And so if you look at just customer, you know, NPS, customer attention, it is higher, materially higher for customers that engage, you know, we see that in our data that engage online digital capabilities for service, whether that's an app, whether that's an online portal. And so, you know, my advice to agents is we have to provide that to customers. If agents have a solution, either they're getting it from a different technology provider. Maybe they've done it through a mobile app like Glovebox. Fantastic.

Starting point is 00:57:14 If an agent doesn't have their own capabilities, push carrier capabilities. The most important thing right now is that we give customers what they need. Like I said, we have worked too hard for a customer to have a better service experience from a direct channel because the direct carrier is pushing that as the only option. But the experience at the end of the day is what the customer needs and what. what they're expecting. So they need to get it some way. In terms of ultimately, are we going to play or is there going to be one particular end zone? I don't know. I mean, right now, we've been open to all of it. So we have certainly proprietary capabilities we're providing. We have

Starting point is 00:57:51 integrations with third parties. We have integrations with agencies to provide those services to their clients. And there's pros and cons. You know, the carrier-centric approach, obviously built into our system, built into our processes. You know, you have native experience. that in some cases potentially are a little bit more robust, not because we're not open to making integrations tighter, but because it's an investment. So if we're going to invest in APIs to go soup to nuts through the entire claims process and embed that in a third-party platform,

Starting point is 00:58:22 we have to have the return on investment to do that. So that's been a little bit more of a challenge to get the same level of extensive kind of experiences and services built. So from a carrier standpoint, it's a native experience, but sometimes will provide more functionality. That said, to your point, Ryan, on the commercial line side, you know, if there is in a commercial account that split across carriers, you know, that's maybe not an ideal solution for an app

Starting point is 00:58:47 or they only have part of the account. You know, in personal lines, we're more likely to have the entire household, and so those experiences are a little bit more robust. So I'd say, you know, what's important thing right now from my standpoint is that together we remain open and flexible, that we continue to give agents options, whether that's to empower the tools that they're looking to build or whether that's by leveraging carrier tools where customers can use them today to get that benefit.

Starting point is 00:59:14 Awesome. Does any, uh, Matt Remyi, do you have any additive comments or can I rapid fire a few of these other questions at you? Because we got, we'll go, we'll go rapid fire. Cool. Okay. So I got a couple of questions here from the audience that I'm going to hit real quick. We got four minutes. So just let's try to punch the answers if you can. Um, So let's see, I'm going to go to you with this one, Matt. And Joe asks, what are two action steps that an independent agency can take that wants to scale their business in the 21st century? You may or may not have written a book that addressed some of these particular topics.

Starting point is 00:59:55 Yeah, I mean, there's more than two. But if I had to pick two out of the gate, I would say lead generation and digitization, right? And so, and those two things are related, right? There's, you know, we've got a solid, we just heard, we just broke down all the service needs and everything. You know, servicing your business is a obstacle to scaling your growth. But to really grow, it is taking a look at the digital resources that are out there and getting them into your agency, which includes building a digital brand, whether you're in a geographic market or a digital market to grow your business. and generating the leads and the potential perspective interactions with clients or potential clients that your carriers want to write.

Starting point is 01:00:43 And then look, technology levels the playing field. There's a lot of small agencies out there. We do business with a lot of them that look a hell of a lot bigger than they are because they use digital capabilities to scale and look and act and execute much bigger than they are. Awesome. Amy, I'm going to kick this one to you as much as you're able or willing to offer insights. Future of staffing, CSRs, you probably see this in the logins that people are adding to the system, that where they're trying to access people from, what are you seeing from just the standard questions you guys are getting around VA's from. There's also, I just interviewed a guy who is building digital VAs like bots that are going.

Starting point is 01:01:33 going into AMS and doing such automated processes, which may not even be legal, I don't know. But it, you know, what you're this kind of, is it straight local American licensed CSRs or are there other staffing options out there? What are you seeing and what are your thoughts? Totally. So I think the answer is all of the above we're seeing, to be honest with you, right?

Starting point is 01:01:55 So there's still a lot of people that are at the large end building their own service centers and trying to create that internally. there's using offshore resources to do some of that. We see people investing in robotics processing to do some of the more kind of standard tasks to ultimately get rid of the, you know, order taking type of activity that a CSR might have to do

Starting point is 01:02:19 in trying to free up their resources times to do more value add thing by some automating some of these robotics processes, which to be honest with you is, there's a ton of opportunity there. Nobody's done that really in a productized way that everyone could leverage, But when you look at what some of the individual companies are doing, you can obviously see there's a lot of, a lot of opportunity.

Starting point is 01:02:38 And then there's still a lot of CSR hiring going on across the board, right? So employment growth is going up in the independent channel consistently. And then there's a chunk of those folks that are still CSRs. Yeah. I will say from our own hiring at Rogue, if you are struggling to find high quality service people, look to younger moms and dads who have young kids at home. because most likely some old sodgy traditional agency has punted them, and they're just sitting out there dying to come in and rock star your agency. So if you're willing to have a remote employee or someone with flexible hours,

Starting point is 01:03:14 there are a tremendous amount of talent sitting on the sidelines because they don't fit the traditional 8 to 430 mindset of a CSR. So just that's one way that we found some incredible people on our team, just something to keep in mind. Guys, Matt, Amy, Tyler, I want to thank you so much. I know how valuable your time is. I know that we're all busy. It's the middle of the day on a Tuesday.

Starting point is 01:03:36 Appreciate you being here, sharing your thoughts. And it was a pleasure and an honor to share the virtual stage with all of you. Thanks for having us. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Cheers. Close twice as many deals by this time next week. Sound impossible, it's not.

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Finding Peak w/ Ryan Hanley - Titans of the Insurance Industry Share Their View of the Future

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