Finding Peak w/ Ryan Hanley - You’ll Be OK, but Your Kids Are F@cked

Episode Date: March 16, 2023

Spartan philosophy, built in the black-ops lab of business: https://www.findingpeak.comFinding Peak podcast: https://linktr.ee/ryan_hanleyIn this episode of The Ryan Hanley Show, Ryan Hanley sits down with Billy Van Jura."Billy Van Jura is an unabashed slayer/supporter of innovation, agency model advocate and is intolerable of weak stuff. He has multiple length sticks to poke into the Hornet's nest."Bill Van Jura founded Birchyard LLC and is one of the most prophetic and antagonistic voices in the independent insurance industry.He's also among the most thought-provoking people I've ever met, and I relish every time we chat.Don't miss this episode… Episode Highlights:Billy and Ryan discuss content production quality. (4:42)Billy mentions that people should take the time to search for existing information before asking questions. (10:33)Ryan shares how COVID forced him to solve problems that he never had to solve before. (13:12)Ryan and Billy discuss Propeller Bonds and how it is a value add to the industry. (26:23)Billy mentions that he has met with basic insurance agents in New York who have been in business for 35 to 65 years, but are barely known and don't have a Google profile or a website. (46:55)Billy explains why he believes that the sooner we kill the romance of the independent agent, the better. (51:40)Billy discusses the potential of a large aggregator that could develop their own carrier if they were successful in developing an MGA program. (59:22)Key Quotes:“I believe the sooner we kill the romance of the independent agent, the better. You distribute insurance, get past anybody giving a s*it about you being local, because it's not important.” - Billy Van Jura“Where I get stuck is when the what happens next? Iroquois or any of these big aggregators, the sooner they really develop an MGA program, the sooner they really develop their own carrier, the more interesting it gets.” - Billy Van JuraResources Mentioned:Billy Van Jura LinkedInBirchyard LLCReach out to Ryan HanleyRogue RiskFinding Peak--Recommended Tools for GrowthOpusClip: #1 AI video clipping and editing tool: https://link.ryanhanley.com/opusRiverside: HD Podcast & Video Software | Free Recording & Editing: https://link.ryanhanley.com/riversideWhisperFlow: Never waste time typing on your keyboard again: https://link.ryanhanley.com/whisperflowCaptionsApp: One app for all your social media video creation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/captionsappGoHighLevel: It's time to take your business workflow to the Next Level: https://link.ryanhanley.com/gohighlevelPerspective.co: The #1 funnel builder for lead generation: https://link.ryanhanley.com/perspective--Episodes You Might Enjoy:From $2 Million Loss to World-Class Entrepreneur: https://lnk.to/delkFrom One Man Shop to $200M in Revenue: https://lnk.to/tommymelloIs Psilocybin the Gateway to Self-Mastery? https://lnk.to/80upZ9This show is part of the Unplugged Studios Network — the infrastructure layer for serious creators. 👉 Learn more at https://unpluggedstudios.fm.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

You've finally broken loose from work. Three friends, one tea time, and then the text. Honey, there's water in the basement. Not exactly how you pictured your Saturday. That's when you call us, Cincinnati Insurance. We always answer the call, because real protection means showing up, even when things are in the rough. Cincinnati Insurance, let us make your bad day better.

Find an agent at CINFIN.com. holidays want to give your host a gift consider subscribing rating and reviewing the show this holiday season it really helps the show grow from all of us at believe have a merry christmas everyone and a happy holiday crude laboratory in the basement of his home hello everyone and welcome back to the show today we have a tremendous episode for you wonderful wonderful conversation conversation that's going to be ear candy like really good ear sex filled with multiple ear explosions for you on this Thursday. And that is going to be a wonderful conversation with Billy Vanjura.

Billy is known for hot takes on LinkedIn and Twitter being a tremendous agency owner, a wonderful professional of our space, and someone who challenges both the new thinking and the old think of the industry. And I don't know too many people who are willing to take shots at both. both the kind of more progressive, tech-forward and sure-tech-focused aspect of our industry as well as the way the industry has always been done. And he's finding that middle ground.

Just absolutely respect to hell out of Billy. Love every conversation I have with them because he always makes me think, and this one is no different. Before we get there, if you enjoy the podcast, you'll love the blog. Go to Findingpeak.com, subscribe today. It's an email a week.

You get a thought-provoking article. I'm writing all kinds of stuff about peak performance, about running your agency, stuff I've learned at rogue risk. I think you'll love that. And big shout out to our friends at Tivoli, tivoli. T-I-V-L-Y.com. Tivoli creates that foundational, consistent growth in your business when it comes to

small commercial and middle market. I mean, we get some accounts through Tivoli that are occasionally 50 to $100,000 in premium. The key is Tivoli's delivering warm phone call transfers to business owners so that your team or yourself can take those leads and write them quick. they're consistent. You can really dial in all the triggers. You know who's calling from where.

Love Tivoli. Love that they're a part of this podcast. But also, we've been a paying client of Tivoli's at Rogue Risk for more than two years. So not only a client, or not only the spokesman, but also a client, I guess you can say. All right. So let's get past all this. Get on to what is one of my favorite conversations I've had in 2023 by far this conversation. that you're about to hear with Billy Van Jern.

I'm going to Shaboo! I don't produce the video anymore because, one, it's just too much work. And, you know, I hate asking people to like, you know, people get kind of like, you know, which I get like, when you know you're going to be on video, people kind of like want to look a certain way and they're worried about the way they look.

And so I use the video just for the conversation so we can see each other and see our, you know, see our expressions. And I feel like the conversation goes, lot smoother when you can see the person, but I don't produce the video. I know some people do. I get it. I know that I know and I'm and what's crazy is and I have never enjoyed this, but like personally,

but there's a lot of people that like watching like podcast conversations. They like watching it on YouTube. Like you get probably if you produce, if you produce your podcast and publish like this like this Zoom video on on YouTube as well, you can add like another 30 or 40% in some cases. And, you know, that could be a lot of extra views. But, you know, I still, you know, as much as I do this and I, you know, lucky to have Tivoli as a sponsor and that, but basically pays me to pay cash and, you know, whatever. It's like I don't really make that much money. I basically basically affords me like a few dinners.

You know what I mean? It's not like it's a huge thing. But it's appreciated. And really, you know, it's still just fun. Like I just, I like bringing people on that I like, that I want to talk to and sharing the ideas and stuff. And it's still just something that I do mostly for fun, you know, for fun. Then it is like trying to make a business out of it, you know, like Bradley and Scott and the things they do. I think it's amazing and I think it's awesome how they've grown their audience.

But, you know, they have like a full-blown studio with a production. I'm not interested in that. You know, I think it's awesome. I just, you know. It's the whole content thing for me. I'm a capitalist. I appreciate you earning money, however you choose to earn money. Good for you.

You're not harming anybody. God bless. But I just got other things I want to do. Yeah. And I've recorded it and haven't recorded something in a while, but it's like, if the quality is good enough, the audio sound you can hear it it's good like man all the other stuff is just fluff you know i like your intro music like i enjoy it it kind of leads into things it's nice it sounds good but like and all the other stuff like uh i was listening to one last night and the credit role it was almost

like it was on tv like the amount of people contributing to doing it i was like yeah okay but it doesn't sound any better yeah than the business pockets i heard but two dudes just with basic setups to their house. Yeah. That's, that's the tough part today is like, you know, you, you know, you even think about the Joe Rogan show. This guy has, what, 30 million people downloading his podcast every month. It's basically three people. He's got him. He's got his guy who does the, the pull-ups whose name is escaping, even those listening to Joe. Jamie? Yeah, Jamie. And then he's got one other guy that does like the production stuff. Like, it's basically, basically a three-man show and then he's got people that like run the building and some other stuff.

But like the actual podcast is like a three or four person production crew, including Joe Rogan, 30 million downloads. And then you have like these other shows like like somebody sent me one. They're like, you got to listen to this show on NPR. And first I, I fucking hate NPR. But, um, but, you know, like you said, it was like in production with this and this media company and this and da da da da. And I'm like, oh my God, like the amount of money that this show. show, which was, you know, I mean, interesting, but they could have done it sitting on a park bench,

holding an iPhone between them, and I would have been just as happy. And like, I just, to me, there's no way for that to be successful long term. That is an absolute loss leader forever, if you do it that way. There's just no way for that to be successful. And I don't, and that's, like, because we're both into the insurance route, there was a, there's a thread the other day and Nick Ayers and some other anonymous person was in there and it's about like SEO and websites and stuff. And you know this and I've got data that can back this up. There are plenty.

My website is dog shit. I have four websites. They're all equal levels of dog shit. But I don't either. I sit in that camp of like Craigslist is amazing. You can bang on Craigslist all you want. He's sitting on his pile of cash and doesn't worry about your opinion. Yeah.

And then you go to somebody's websites and I'm like, man, I've been in your office. Like, I know where you are and who you are. That website's just a front. Like that is just like, it looks amazing. You spent a lot of money putting that thing up there. But it's like useless. And like you said, like the Joe Rook and stuff, like before you go all in on all this production, all this whole, just be good.

Yeah. Just be worth listening to. Yeah. You know, Cal Newport wrote a book back in, I think, 2013 called Be So Good. good they can't ignore you and it was based off of the um uh wow my brain is not functioning today um shit from the tonight show from the 70s and 80s um or not the tonight there's a saturnate live uh martin um a martin um steve martin uh steve martin uh steve martin uh steve martin is he in an interview said you know someone asked him what's your secret to success and he said be so good

they can't ignore you and and and basically then cal newport took that pulled that quote out and wrote this really cool book. I mean, you kind of get the gist of the book from the title, but it is a good, you know, kind of airplane read book and I enjoyed it. But like that's really the key. And I think, you know, I don't anymore seemingly, and I'm so glad that there's a new class of insurance talking heads who are willing to answer all these kind of what I call seemingly think think of a seemingly trivial questions about what kind of microphone you and I used to get asked those questions incessantly I don't seemingly anymore I feel like those questions go to other people now which I'm happy about because not not because I don't

want to answer the questions but because my answers are this microphone which I have just off camera which you can't see this microphone is 11 years old I bought this for 80 bucks on Amazon back in like 2012. And I've had the same. I've, the only thing I've had to replace is I had to replace the arm one time that holds it because the arm springs just atrophied from being so old that I had to replace the arm. Other than that, the microphone, I've had the same microphone for more than a decade. I use a $40 Logitech camera to do these calls in Zoom, which costs me, cost me 14 bucks a month. And then I've switched from, I used to use all the Adobe products. And truthfully now, like, they've gotten so difficult and so time consuming and all that.

I just use the free Apple shit that comes on the Mac computer now, the I movie and garage band. So, like, you think about like the setup costs, you know, that I do the cost of the podcast, you know, from Cass helps me put it all, put all the show notes together and all publishing and that is well worth what that what I pay for that but like um but just it's it's like you don't need all that stuff to to have a show and you know and whatever and and it I feel like people get too caught up in the stuff and not in the substance and that's probably a life thing but certainly in a content production thing you said this a minute ago and it and it parlayers so much stuff is the they don't ask me anymore I guess because you're a

person that's asked a lot more than me, right? You are a node entity out there. You did a post on this somewhere. There's a blog post. There's a video. There's like, you already answered these questions. And then they come ask them of you, right? And now I get it. They're having a dialogue. It's the same reason I don't engage in any of the Facebook message stuff because the new people are, yeah, they're lazy. Yeah. Don't look for the information. Now, if you find Ryan, post and you have a question about his post, by all means, you should send him a note. But the answer is already existing. And now you're going to waste my time by asking it.

You know, like you said about the substance part, I'm like, man, like I started putting some stuff out and I had a bunch of stuff backlog. And I said to somebody and said to somebody, you know, I didn't share all this. I spent two years putting all this information together. Like this is handpicked, hand curated. But no one's going to execute on it. So what the hell is the point? It came in on my computer.

Here you go. Like, I said to a bunch of people and it was like, you're not going to do anything with it. So who cares? It's, you know, I don't, I don't know if you listen to the episode that I put out recently. It was the full keynote that I did from the One City World Tour. Oh, it was so spot on. The second half hour, I mean, sit here.

We've interacted a bunch of before. And here with the first 25 minutes of the tour. Yeah, yeah. the second half hour is so and it's embarrassing that I get frustrated by it but it's like I think I wrote it is $880 million in funding yet they can't complete leads yeah like like you're still I did this and I keep a separate email address if I see a new service I sign up just to see hey I left for call flow how's it work I think it was next I ended up in some shop in Missouri, they couldn't help.

And then they passed me off to somebody else. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. How is that possible? Like, you're not, you're not even a broker. You're just a lead generator. Yeah. Like, how could you imagine in your world getting leads and passing them off? Like, we do it as brokers, right?

Like, if you just don't have the right fit, if it's just a big commercial thing, I am just not the right guy. Here's some suggestions. but could you imagine just that's your business model? I'm going to generate traffic and then I'm just going to farm it out. So it, so I have, I have a bunch of feelings on this. Because at Rogue, I've had to solve a bunch of problems that I never had to solve before and that I didn't necessarily seem coming in.

Looking back, I probably should have, but, you know, and one of those issues was because of COVID, and I talk a little bit about this on other shows, like because of COVID, I kind of had to survive, right? Like I put like 40K into this business. No idea COVID's coming. It's going to be a middle market, you know, high touch, white gloves shop. I'm doing all the killing commercial stuff. I'm working with Mick Hunt.

Basically, I'm using mixed stuff and David's stuff and my own stuff and all the other people. And I'm mashing together. And what I believe is like going to be this awesome best in class, New York, you know, New York only middle market shop. this is what I wanted Rogue to be the original vision of Rogue. That's what it was. Right. And it's like me and like a couple, you know, a couple other service people. And like we're writing accounts and being world class boutique. That was Rogue. That was the original vision of Rogue 40K, all the systems, everything I needed. I am ready to go. I'm excited. Jacked out of my mind. One weekend, COVID happens. It all just, it's like I lit it the whole

thing on fire. Every plan, every piece of marketing material, half the tools that I had purchased to service middle market accounts, just light them on fire. They're useless. Okay. So when I pivoted to the small commercial and I started doing all the content on YouTube, the unfortunate thing about that is it is incredibly difficult to target geographically. And also, no matter what you do, it is very, very hard to target industry. So one of our biggest problems up until very recently, which I'm happy to talk about how we've, at least we're trying to solve it today, is, was, dude, I don't get to choose who. contacts us, right? So it's like, I got plastics manufacturers from southern Louisiana and,

you know, shotgun retailers from East Montana and, you know, and all these, and also shit that's kind of down the middle and stuff we really want to work with. But like, what do you do with them? And to be honest with you, you know, I can see how like, so I did an interview a few weeks back with the CEO of Tivley. And, you know, basically what happened to them? them is what happened to us, but he chose a different path. And they were a digital shop, had a very similar challenge to what we had. And basically he just started to get frustrated with the insurance sales part and said, screw it. We're going to sell the insurance sales part and just distribute the leads. And so I can see. I agree with you. That's a really tough

decision to make. And I obviously chose to go a different way. But I will say that there is such a large amount of frustration around where does the business go? You know, yes, you know, a perfect example is Hartford loves landscapers in about 35 states. Love them. Probably one of the best carriers in the country for landscapers is Hartford in 35 states. And the other 15 states, they either won't write them at all or they're not even close. How the hell do you know which states are the ones that they will and which ones they won't? You know, like, it's like these kinds of, these are like the crazy, silly challenges that you come up against that like, and by the way, anyone who knows how to code that wants to help me solve that problem, I will, I have the solution mapped out.

I just don't know how to make ones and zeros make things happen in the magic box. But like, you know, these are the kind of thing. So I can see it. It's not, I agree with you. It's not the business model I would want. But I can see how people get frustrated with that and go that way. because especially in commercial. Personal line is completely different.

But in commercial, holy shit, it's just so dynamic. It's overwhelming. So, and even, and it's, I think it's good that other people hear you say this because it's like, you are, you've crossed that hurdle where you've got your 50 states license. You've got a market in every state, not necessarily for every risk. Yeah. Technically speaking, you have carrier representation in every state. Right? Yes. Yep. What I continue and it's, and I go back to something and I paraphrases because I don't know when it was, but like you said, like, who the heck am I, you know, to tell us a billion dollar operation what to do? It was you and cash just going off on a ransom time.

And it stuck with me because I fall in. I fell in. I fell in. Did I trap last Tuesday? I think it was. I snapped on, you know, at my level. I'm talking to the underwriter. We did a field thing.

And they changed the rate. And I'm like, you know, you're just following corporate policy. It's crap. It hurts me. I'm going to bear a brunt of this. But it's crap. Like, what would you do differently? I'm like, I don't, I'm not paid to do things differently.

I'm paid to do things differently. fill in the boxes you give it on pay to produce business. You pay consultants for ideas that don't work. If you want my ideas, we're going to have to figure out a way to do this. And it's, but I fall into that trap of making suggestions because what I don't get is, I remember talking with a large brokerage, not too far away. I said, I want to get to a billion dollars of premium. And I was like, well, that's pretty easy your size.

Like you've got this and everything's already solved. And they didn't get there. And they're not there yet, at least public. me, right? Like, at least the numbers that go up in the rankings. Yeah. How does that happen? Like, you have all the resources and then you're not putting it together. Like, there's always this dispatcher, like a guy like you has figured out so many pieces. And then the guy with the other pieces just isn't interested in solving those problems.

Yeah. Dude, this is, I'll tell you, I think, I think you just, I mean, you just nailed a major problem. Right. So, like, I sit here every day. And even though SIA has been a amazing. And I want to give them credit because they really have. And I know they get banged on a lot. And I know they're not perfect. And I completely understand all that. And I understand none of them are. None of those. None of them are. And I get that people will write me messages. Ryan, they did da, I completely get it. I also know that the Matt Massello version of SIA is a completely different organization than his father. Right. Just different, different philosophies. Again, not saying right or

wrong things, different philosophies. That being said, you know, they've helped us a lot, but they're also not, it's also not 20, it's not like I got a $20 million check to grow road, right? We still have an operating budget that is reasonable. It's, it's much bigger than when I was putting the entire payroll on my credit card and then trying to find ways to pay it off, you know, so it's a little different than that scenario, what it was beforehand, but, but, you know, it's not like we have mega money. We have, we're growing and doing great. and all that, but it's not a big of money. I look at these carriers that are trying to go direct.

I look at insure techs that raised 5, 10. I just had a call with an insured tech that was launched in 2016 that some people would know the name of if I told you that is now that we're considering acquiring because I want the tech. Dude, they raised $12 million. And if you saw the amount of premium and what they actually had for 12 million, I think about what I could do with $12 million. I mean, I could turn $12 million into $200 million. Yeah.

Yeah. I could do by the end of a year. Yeah. I mean, the things that I could, I mean, I think about just just the simple shit that could just absolutely explode in the arbitrage that's available in the market, just a crush. And like, and just a. money that's been wasted. And like, I did 57 VC meetings back in 2021 and went 0 for 57. And these jackasses gave this guy $12 million and they got about $250,000 in premium and a platform that is pretty slick, but no idea how to use it. And now they're wholesale. And now they're like fire sailing.

And I look at that and I'm like, oh my God, like the people with money, they don't want to either don't want to take chances or they want to they want to give them money to these MIT Silicon Valley dicks or you know or the people that have solved the actual problems they can't get any money because they're not building proprietary tech and I'm like this it's so wacky how this works you know that's what I heard over 57 for one reason no proprietary tech across the board every email every response no proprietary tech sorry can't help you I'm like that's silly that's crazy I don't, I've got, you know, a bunch of versions. I've sat in the offices.

I've said, listen, I appreciate what you're doing. But here's what you're going to run into. Now it's three, four, five years later. And you're like, oh, I told you. Like, you know, I mean, I went through kind of like a self-audit. And I deleted so, I mean, literally a thousand emails, either with no replies or sort of polite replies. And I'm like, look at where you are now. But at the same time, they probably cashed out okay.

Yeah. They didn't put any capital in. They didn't put their blood, sweat, like to really get things going. So they probably ended up okay. But seeing that continue to occur. Yeah. It's just baffling. And even on your side, I'd wager like, if you were like a next and it's an ongoing

thing in insurance, you would struggle to find people. Because you remember you talking about this with like trusted choice, you're actually in probably a very similar scenario like states the dynamite manufacturer in Missouri like maybe you shouldn't be touching that but there's 10 agents in Missouri who have the markets and depending on the premium can't be bothered yeah and I'm like oh my gosh you make me one to want to vomit like you just like but I respect you I respect you making your money you're doing your thing but like holy cow it's a layup it's not even a sale it's it help this guy buy and they're going to ignore it.

Dude, our industry is so, I mean, this is what I find so dynamic and interesting. And the, you know, these frustrations that we're discussing are also what make this so interesting a place to work, right? Like, like, you know, people come in and into the space and you meet them and they're fresh and they're doing things and they have these opinions. And I love it because we always need fresh perspectives, you know. As long as people come in, my perspective, my first filter is always, do you? have respect for the fact that this is a 440 year old industry that is not broken? Like, do you operate from that mind frame? Yes. Okay. Now I'll hear all your crazy ideas, you know, because if you come in and your first thought is this is broken or you only understand like three to five

years of history or you think that it's, you know, it's, you know, I know, I can, I can, that filter alone. If you don't pass that first filter, you are. And that is so, many of the 2015-2016 insured techs that came in and told us all that we're toast, they're the ones who had no respect for the industry, no respect for where we came from, and the people that are in it and how it works. The people that do or the ones that it spent even a small amount of time in agencies, those are the ones that you look at their products and whether the product works for you or you agree with the product.

They're sticking around. They're doing good stuff. I think about like, here's a perfect example. I actually just liked this post on LinkedIn. Aaron Steffi from propeller bonds, right? Some people like the model. Some people don't like the model. I think it's brilliant.

We use propeller bonds for a lot of stuff because especially for the smaller ship, man, they're so easy. They're great to work with. But Aaron came from a family agency outside of Philadelphia. He got a taste for the business, found this thing that he was interested in, that he thought there was a gap in the market.

He had the expertise and the guy took a shot. And here they are. The post that I liked was a cameo from the guy, I had played Shooter McGavin, like one of those came in the thing. Yeah, it was pretty cool. But I'm like, you know, and the announcement was that they have 2,500 agencies on propeller bonds now. And I'm like, you know what? That's an idea that if he attacks the market, the Silicon Valley Dick takes that idea and goes, I'm going to cut agents out and write all the bonds myself, right? Instead, they never went direct. Every bond they've ever sold has been through an agent or through, you know, a licensed

person. And here they are, 2,500 agents growing like crazy, great business. And I'm like, these, like he passed that first filter, understood the business, had respect. And here they are. It's just that kind of stuff to me is, you know, that, that's what excites me is that for every five, 10 companies that are just garbage that will never actually. make it as loud as they get, you get a propeller bonds, which is really a value add to our

industry as a whole, in my opinion. See, you've covered like two things there at once where it's the, they see the size or size potential. Like, eh, I don't know. Instead of realizing what insurance is, is that you take that bond. And that bond's probably in place for three to 10 years. Yep. No service.

Just write a check every year, done, finish, whatever. And they look at the 2,500 and they poo that. I'm like, you know, all right, good. that's your economics, except had you invested in that, you're looking at a conservative five times return on your investment. If you could just be patient. If you just give it a couple of years to get those able to get that on board and get that there, all of a sudden you're going to look. It's like, huh, I got this drip in recurring revenue. All right, what else can we do?

And that's where I think if you take that model, I can't understand what's next. I told me to a guy, I'll tell you offline, it's probably not fair to say about out of wow, but like $500 million of premium, all sorts of locations. And he said something interesting, and I've known this, but then to hear it from his side,

a guy who's acquiring agencies and doing things, it kind of like, it functions me in the face. He's like, yeah, but what is an accuracy you're going to do now? You've half acquired a bunch of operations. You've fully acquired a bunch of others. What are you actually doing?

This is where I've personally maybe sabotaged myself on a few occasions where I said, I respect your role on, but it's not enough for me because it's actually not that challenging. You have money. You have a process. You've just got to apply effort to that and be a little patient, and you're going to roll up businesses. It's wonderful. It's good for you. You're going to make your money. But what next? That's where I think the propeller bonds in the world, that's where I think the MGA's program kind of business becomes really super interesting because at some point, counters have to put it. back. Like they have to. And at some point, somebody's sport is going to get ahead of it and say,

you know what? I bought up all these operations. I've got 50,000 customers. They weren't cross-sold. If I've got the best bonds set up in the world, I've probably got a thousand bonds in my book. I just don't even know that they're. That's where I think those things get really interesting is when the people with the existing books, like I've tried this for a number of years. Everybody wants to sell you a social media set up. Everybody wants to say, I'm going to get you more traffic and I come back with, cool, I've got 6,000

prospects already in my system. I've got 3,000 of them that will respond to my email or my phone call without even a question. Make me money off that. Go find me 6,000 strangers.

Take the data I have and drip new products to them. Now you'll get my attention and I'll split the revenue with you. If you're so good, you shouldn't be worried about it because your system works. And it's always a no. It's always a no.

I want you to pay me to set this up and this up. And I'm sitting here saying, you make this platform. And there's 2,500 agents that will sign up for that platform because you show it it works. I don't know. You know, you're completely right. Book optimization and revenue per client max maximization is is the key. And this is, this is one of my major beefs with the agency management systems in general and why, you know, I don't, we can't, you know, they just so miss the mark. and there's so much friction. And binging about agency management systems is tired and I don't need to do it.

But like these are some of the things that they completely miss on, right? It's like it's today there, how do you build a system that allows me to know who has a bond, who doesn't and send automated messages to those people and then get a response to them. Why can't I send an email that says, hey, do you have a bond need? Yes or no? Let us, if you say no, I'll never send you another issue about bonds again. but if you say yes, one of our team members can reach out and show you the examples or, hey, you want to do it yourself? We have this do it yourself option through this, through one of our

partners that allow you to buy the bond yourself. So we're testing. One of the things I believe is a major mistake, most, most, I shouldn't say a mistake. I have a theory that a missed opportunity for many, especially larger. I don't want to say smaller, maybe single location, shops, but like larger shops with a decent amount of clients, you know, thousand plus three, you know, two thousand plus clients is do-it-yourself options for quoting. And people go, no, no, you need insurance agents. No, I hear that. But there are, there are products and small bonds are one of those products. I'm not talking $5 million performance bonds and stuff. Yeah, you probably, you know, you need, you know, you need a surety specialist involved for a lot of

that. But like these little $200, $250 municipal bonds and janitorial bonds, and janitorial bonds. and, you know, why can't that person? Semitone is the bonds. Sevento is the basic bond. Like, you're finished. What's up, guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show.

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The real estate agents oftentimes need bonds in many states. Like there's all these little bonds that people have to buy that should just be bang, bang, bang, bang. And then they auto renew every year. And, and, you know, you take a company like Cincinnati, their surety department rolls up to your contingencies. So now you have basically, you build a surety book with a company like Cincinnati. And now you're essentially, you're building like a zero loss, you know, zero loss ratio product, essentially, you know, unless something really terrible happens into your book. and you build a substantial amount, think about how much that pushes your loss ratio down. Like, these are the types of agency optimization techniques that as we continue to grow at rogue,

and I look at how easy new business acquisition is. You know, that's one of the biggest jokes to me is how new business acquisition is hard. If new business acquisition is hard for you, honestly, this may not be the business. Like this new business acquisition is not hard. It's work, but it's not hard. It's just work. would you agree it's easier today than when you started. The forgetting your knowledge part, I believe it's actually easier.

Exponentially easily. Exponentially easier. Not even close. Because with social and branding and email and cold drip and dude, I was doing, you know, because you know, I get a little crazy. There's this tool that I was looking at here. Let me look up the name real quick. So people can check it.

Actually, part of me not to not tell you guys, but I'm going to anyways. I just want to tell you the name is tool. It's, um, yeah, yeah. no one will actually do it. Windsor.io. So what this tool allows you to do is you record a video one time. Okay. So let's say I was on here and the video was like, hey, Billy, just want to say thank you for purchasing insurance through rogue risk. I am the founder and CEO. And it means even though we may never actually interact, I just want to tell you, it means a lot to me that you're here. Our team is going to take care of you. Our proprietary, blah, blah, right. 45 second welcome video. Well, all my team needs to do is plug in the person's first name and I never have to record that video again.

The AI takes it and makes it so it looks like I am saying and it and it recalculates my voice so that it sounds like I'm saying your name. And then, you know, and then Jason and Sally and Tammy and Tommy and whoever. And it's the same video, but AI generated voice and mouth movements so that it looks like. a personalized video every time to every customer. And then you can scale that out to every customer every time they purchase. And now it feels like they're getting this incredibly personalized thing, but you literally did it one time. Like that kind of stuff to me, that's solid gold. That's our business, right? That's like you want to grow huge and have people love you. These are the kind of tools that do that. Not, you know, I mean, not the Facebook ads or whatever, but like, pay somebody

to do your Facebook ads for you. If that's what you. you want to do. Like don't, this is the kind of shit that like takes our game to the level and helps you optimize your book because it makes people feel the warm and fuzzies. And it's like, this stuff is coming. Like if you're not thinking about this, can you survive today? Yes, you can. Can your kids survive? No, I'm going to fuck on your kids. I'm going to eat your kids lunch and put your kids out of business. You will be fine, right? But like that's the way that I think, you know, and not just me, there are other people, other rogues out there. There's guys like you. There's people out there like, I'm coming for you.

I'm going to do what's necessary. You'll survive. Your kids will not. Sorry. I'm just going to chip away at you. And even like you said, personalize that. You know, and gosh, I just, I need the self-control to stop asking the carriers for these things. Yeah.

We've acquired four businesses. Yep. Through these businesses, I now have five American modern codes. Five. Now, average premium is like $100 a policy, right? So I'm not a big hitter with him. But nobody will allow me to consolidate it to one code that I can manage with one login. Guy says, can you do $250,000 of business this year with me? And I says, you can't even make it so I want to do business with you. And did you look at my average policy cost? It's $100. It's classic cars and it's jet skis or snowmobiles. I can't even tell from the policy I'm looking at.

Well, then, you know, we can't help you. So I talked to other companies that have the codes. You're like, well, it takes a year. You need to sign a broker a record. I'm like, dang, you're paying me $7.50. I'm not going through the effort of signing a broker a record just to consolidate that stuff. But if they're not willing to do that, and then I charge for them, I say, you know, if I could pull the data by your name and your address, there's ways to pull stuff up.

We can bang on the management systems all we love. Team PL Raider and Google, I could get a pretty darn good profile on 90% of the households. I know you can look up who has a car older than 1980 registered. Why don't I just give you my 6,000 addresses? You run it across there for two bucks a pop or whatever. Find the classic cars. And then we will literally send them a quote. We'll get a massive, well, you know, that'll cost us a couple dollars each.

and we're not sure and but the information is available and you want more business from me you know I can't prospect for classic cars because you don't pay enough to me to prospect for classic cars and you do nothing with it what am I supposed to do with that ever you know what are we supposed to do here and that's where to your point at a big shop that what's next part you you know a friend of mine he says smoke now right I've researched the state of New York I can show you maps I can show you everywhere I've driven. I can show you the agencies I've seen. And I feel bad saying it, but I don't need you to sell me your business for me to take your

business. Yeah. I can run it off zip codes. I know who your carriers are. It would take a little longer, but I can put you out of business. And like you said, it may not be you, but your kid's not taken over when I chip away half the revenue, you know, and it's doable. I don't know.

It's interesting stuff. The AI stuff you said, and I'm sure you have. had your own version of these conversations. I've seen stuff that scares me. Like, like, there's a company in Europe. I met with them a few times. They, they were in Manhattan and we met, and they showed me, they said, well, give us a list. We're not going to do anything with it. We're going to show you what our product does. And the stuff they can pull on you just on your Google address, you know, just in your email rather, it's freaky. It's just downright scary. But I get it. And the challenge I told them is probably the same thing you know.

But carriers aren't ready for your data. Not as a hazard hub, right? They've been bought by guidewire. Their biggest challenge is not that they've got the right information is that the carriage aren't ready for your information. I mean, I'm still picking protection classes with billion dollar companies. How is that possible?

The data exists. The correct data exists. And you're still making me guess based on who has a well and who has public order. And dude, this is our industry, unfortunately. just like our government is run by bureaucrats, not by leaders. And if you're a middle manager and someone comes to you and brings you this project, hey, let's make sure the protection class is right for every property across the country.

So when one of our agents pops it in, they don't have to put in one, three, four, five, six, seven, nine, ten. It just pulls automatically. It's not even a question, right? We just know. The only thing that can happen to that bureaucrat is that that project costs too much, get screwed up or doesn't work well, and now they're in trouble. So they go, I'm good, no thanks.

So we just kind of keep moving along. So I'm a big fan of Michael Liebore and what he's doing at insurance gig. He's got an enormous, enormous project ahead of him. But the things that he's trying to do, I think, are worth our effort. And basically the core concept is, I know it's much bigger this. And Michael, if you listen to this, please don't think I'm trying to diminish what you do. I'm just trying to give a broad stroke. It's kind of a zapier for insurance.

products for agents or for agencies and carriers. So we're talking about, you know, hey, you know, and he's got Hazard Hub linked up. He's got Fenris linked up. He's got Relativity 6 linked up and a couple other databases. And I was like, you know, I'm talking to some carriers and similar projects, right? I mean, you and I think very similar on how do we create these opportunities at scale with the data we have and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, okay, can we, can we pull, you know, small businesses in this state of this class and then, you know, and then just rip in Fenris, rip in property data from Hazard Hub and rip in the Relativity Six data, pull it all together and then just batch, batch quote all these guys. And then what I'll do

is freaking cold email them with, you know, essentially, you know, call them like, like introductory quotes. Like, hey, you know, we need to, we need to clarify a few things. But based from the data I have, we could potentially get you, like, let's say, a workers' comp policy for X amount, right? And there are certain carriers right now that have LCMs that are like literally 1.01, right? Like, like literally you're basically playing flat rate or, or in some cases, even less than that. It's crazy what workers' comp rates are with some carriers right now in certain class codes. So it's like, this is a way to absolutely scale and dominate. And it's like, the carriers can't put it all together. And then they're like, well, we're not sure.

about that data source. I'm like, who do you believe more? Me, who I will lie to you in 10 seconds if it gets a policy written, right? Or the data that comes off of these big huge databases, it's a freaking job to be accurate. Like, it's just crazy to me where our mentality is and our lack of willingness to take risks on some of these things. It just, you know, and then you look at a coterie and like, I don't think codery is perfect, but, and I don't love that they went direct. I really don't love that they went direct. But, But their product, the ease of their product is so crazy. It's so easy.

And the policy forums are good. Again, not perfect, but good. And like, I just say to myself, like, oh, coderies probably, it'll be decades before they're ever able to actually make a dent into some of the big carriers. And the scale is the problem. But like, the things they're doing are so far out ahead of these companies that, that seemingly should be just leading. It just boggles the mind. But do you get, I'm just fatigued

by the whole thing. I've got all my own stuff I got to work on and I'm just like, you said it with the data. Frist is the company that bought him. And I came to think at Pius's company. This guy, Pugh, showed me that everything you just described, I saw this years ago. Yeah. And I said kind of what you just said is like the problem is, what are you do with the data? And the hazard hub, I remember meeting those guys in Hartford and like, I've seen their demos like,

This is amazing. Well, like, nobody's up to it. I still, I don't know why I'm so long on view inspection, this guy out in Arizona. He owns a property inspection company. Like, he's correct. He's been correct for years. Yet I still have companies spending four or $500 to send the human being out to a property to take pictures of a house. Like, and I'm done.

Like I just, you're going to pay me for my time or some other arrangement. Like, I just have other stuff I need to be working on right now. And it's just so fatigued when you know the answer is available. And but back to your original point. And it really is like, this is how unbroken insurance is. They're making so much money. We don't need to make these changes because we're good where we are. And listen, I'm 100% certain.

The best thing any national or even super regional company can do is audit their books right now. Shrink the overall premium size, probably lose some PIF count, and profitability will follow like, like, but they don't need it. because they're really profitable. But come on. And I know maybe you're not like writing the weeds with the quotes necessarily today. But like the stuff I'm replacing and then you look at the, like I kind of stopped looking at debt pages because if it's better than books for four or five, 10 years, whatever it is, there's nothing accurate about what was reading four or five, 10 years ago. And nobody's correcting this stuff. And even I've gotten pushback when I said I lost a little over 12 grand like a month ago.

on a profitiary thing. The book shrank. Well, I raised deductibles. A couple of accounts went to another agent. It's from an acquisition idea. So you didn't actually lose the premium. And you saw the dozens of policies I rewrote correctly to correct premium. And then you dig the profit sharing.

The profit sharing number, like, I went down from 40 cents to 28 cents or something like that. So we went down like 20 cents. And you know it's better because you saw all the paperwork, all the adjustments. And you're going to screw me out of profit sharing. Yeah, that's the contract, right? Because that's the dirty little secret. The dirty little secret is quality of coverage only matters in presentations. It does not matter in truth.

It's premium, premium, premium, premium, premium. That is one, two, three, four, five. You know, a loss ratio then comes in at some point in there. but like all that really matters is top level premium because that's what most of these people are getting bonus on. And then loss ratio is a conversation. They use their tool against us. But like quality coverage, raising deductibles.

I mean, like you said, you could go into a book. Let's say you had 100 clients, right, just for purposes of easy numbers. You had 100 clients. And their deductibles are all super low and out of whack and their coverage sucks and you go in and you raise their liability limits. You push their deductibles up on property. so they're not going to pay out nickel and dime claims, you know, and ultimately the premiums come down in aggregate, right?

What you just did was create a highly profitable, much, you know, much more sticky, much more retained book of business that's going to be great long term for you. And you're going to get screwed in terms of revenue to you and to your agency. And, you know, I guess it's part of just the way the world works. But I get it. And I think you said it. There is a point where, like, I have saved. a lot of these types of conversations for just the podcast because I am fatigued.

I like having them like here in these venues because it's fun and you get to talk and whatever, but like all the Facebook posts and the LinkedIn threads and I just, I'm fatigued by it. It's like there is a reality of the way the world works. I have a business model that I'm going to execute because I think it's the way that I can leverage that world to do right by customers and make money. And that's what I'm going to do. the days of like trying to convince people that the shit that you and I believe and seemingly I think is the way.

Right. Done convincing. Don't convince you believe it or you don't. Or figure it out on your own. But the convincing days are over. Yeah. Yeah. No,

it really, it's even. And even like you said before, like when agents and leads and stuff, like I've driven around this state a couple of times, all my focus is New York. I've met dozens of amazing. agents who, like, you don't even know they exist.

They barely have a, they don't have a Google profile. They don't have a website. But they owe their building. They've been in a business for 35 to 65 years. Maybe they took over for a parent. They've been betting a hundred grand a year in some rural village for decades, writing everything off through the business or even as garbage. Yeah.

But yet, they're better than you. And your new company, you know, not you, but you know what I mean? Yeah, I know. Exactly what you mean. You shiny thing. And I'm just like, they're actually some of my biggest challenges because the math is just not there. Like, they are correct.

Their business doesn't go anywhere. And by our standards, they treat their customers like shit. They're overpriced. They haven't remarked a piece of business in years. Nobody questions them. And if they leave, they've already done the math in their head. They don't really care if Sally leaves because they've already made money on Sally. And it's beautiful and disgusting.

I go all at once. Yeah. Really, that's been my biggest challenge for years now. It's the lifestyle agent. The thing, you know, I say this. Yeah.

Whenever, whenever someone, whenever, you know, every once in a while I'll get pulled in by a carrier and they'll ask me some questions about this or that or whatever. Like, I fucking know what I'm talking about. And, you know, I'll say to them like,

are you building this for growth agents or lifestyle agents? That's the question I started asking. Like, I hear everything you just said. You're like, don't pitch me something. We're going to do this whole thing. Okay. Is this for growth?

agents or lifestyle agents and they'll kind of look at you. Some people will get it and then a lot of them will look at you like, what do you mean? And I'd be like, because if you're looking at your agency plan and you haven't carved out lifestyle and growth agencies, then this is screwed day one. Because lifestyle agencies will, could give two shits. If their spouse has a new seven series, if they have a house in some place that they like to go other than their hometown and their and their lights are on every day, they run every expense to their business. As you said, they could care less about losing a client. They know, you know, Tammy's going to refer her niece in who's been, you know,

and they'll get that back over the court, you know, net over the year. And they don't care. They don't run their agency to be great insurance agencies. They run their agency to finance their lifestyle. And like that agent could give two craps about this new thing, even if they quote unquote need it. They don't. They don't want it. So like, most.

of these new things that we talk about are actually only for a very small subset of agencies versus the larger ecosystem who are growth focused, who are like, I'm pedal to the floor going as hard as I can. Everyone else could care less. They could care less. So two things along that, because I'm just your choir at the moment, right? So there's a guy closer to you than to me. Three locations. I'll send it to you afterwards. I finally got him on a phone. I said, all right, well, if you were interested in selling which of them, he says, 900. I said, all right, give me a few minutes. I've got some private finance. I got a phone call. So what's the look like? I said, okay, we're in. Call the guy back. It's okay.

What do you, like, when could we be, you got to show me some numbers and say, he's like, no, no, well, hold on a second here. I've got Derek, who's been with me for a while and this, and he goes, you're not, you're not changing anything until I got my money. And I said, well, And that's not exactly how it's going to work. But if you want 900, which is really like, and his stupidity is that it's really like one time's revenue, right? So that's giving it away. Okay, fine.

He's a, well, I don't know. Let me think about this because exactly what you just said. Kids are older and don't need his money. Oans two or three buildings that he's in. And he started calculating like, he knew at that moment. Like, oh, wait a second, I'm 80-something years old. And I'm so good. but now a business person has offered me this much money.

He's probably starting to do tax calculations. And what is all the crap that I'm not showing anybody that I'm running off? And I admire him. I really do. At the same time, Bridget around your lifestyle agent versus growth agent. So, Tahrir kind of questions some stuff. And if they're looking to maybe appoint some agents and do some clusters. And I've done this before.

I pick up some of our URB companies. I don't know what they call them in other states, like little co-ops, right? I mean, you know, I think I don't, I've never heard you are B anywhere other than New York State. Really? Okay. So, so if you're in another state, you're under 50 million in premium. Some cases under 10 million in premium, tend to operate in one to six counties even though you got a statewide license. But you go on their websites, you pick out a grid of zip codes. They go, I got a couple of guys on fiber and I've done some stuff for me. they pull down all the agents and you look at it and you can identify pretty quickly who's

the lifestyle versus who's the growth. Yeah. But then I realized those aren't even accurate because what would happen is a brown and brown or you know, out the middle of state there, there's a couple of bigger operations. They just relabel it. So like there'll be nine entries for the same agency with nine different addresses. And like, well, what do you actually do in there? And the answer is nobody cares.

Really, the guy that said he wanted his information. And it was cool to see because I put it on the map and you can see just how cluster they are in one area. Like I think it's a huge opportunity to get me four hours away to buy one of those agencies because now you've got some spread. Like you're already geographically screwed at this point. Yeah. But they don't care because honestly some of these corporations, and I can show you through like they're lifestyle companies. Yeah. Actual insurance companies that are lifestyle.

And it's. I believe the sooner we kill the romance of the independent agent, the better. You distribute insurance. Get past anybody giving a shit about you being local because it's just not important. It doesn't matter. You said earlier, listen, I appreciate that you have a job running a state association or running a national association, but the reality is you're a lobbyist. And in New York, I hate you because you couldn't even get the photo inspection thing passed

after 10 years and millions of lobbying. So don't talk to me anymore. Don't ask me for more money because more money didn't solve your problem. But there are actually lifestyle companies at this point that you and I probably work with. And you're like, gosh, like, how can you tell me you want this? But you're not even optimizing your company because you're making so much money. Have you ever driven by Community Mutual? Oh, wait.

Well, when you said, I don't know Community Mutual barely has an office because they're really in Vermont, right? Is that a community mutual? It's part of an aggregate of Mutuals. that was created with, shit, what's the one in Vermont? In Vermont, you know who it is

because I know that's an opera. Yeah, I know exactly you're talking about, but community mutual is literally a raised ranch. Yes.

It's a raised ranch. You could go look at Franklin Fire, Cherry Valley, Walton firing cooperative. You look at the addresses like Otsego, but then there's a chart

out there and I got rid of it because I kind of felt like I could get some trouble if I had it. It shows their profitability. they're making 50 cents on a dollar. Like they're destroying profitability numbers, but they're run by a board of eight to 20 people.

God bless them. I am not, this is not a criticism. No, at the same time, oh my gosh, what I could do with your customer base where you're, and I'll say them out loud because we don't do a new business with it.

They came via an acquisition. So a lot mutual. Yeah. They're what you described. They sold their building because things are kind of tight. Now they rent the space. actually a really cool old convertive building it's out 90

just just before Antiband, Fulton or something like that. Yeah, yeah. But they did something really cool like 30 years ago when I was looking up prospects, they made websites for all their agents. Now, if you go look up agents now, you're finding safe go, you're finding

travelers, you're finding progressive, right? Those are your big three that you see them. And let's not even talk about how the agents aren't even using that tool. Like they're not even filling out the sheet completely. Like, yeah. You've got this really is high, their search is better than your search and you're not even bothering to fill out the profile like it once. But Fulmont Mutual made websites for their agents, I think it was in 2000.

It's like before you and I even did the business. Yeah. Yet the search is still beating progressive and travelers. It's insanity. And it's, and I'd have to look at my notes, but like some of the pictures, like the humans are actually dead. Like they're not even physically alive anymore. but the website exists.

And it's like, how do I shit on you? I can't. What you did 23 years ago still works today. And you're making your money and it's... That's the thing, man. I mean, that's, you know, like, there's just,

New York is so odd with the mutual. I mean, the history of New York and Mutuals. Do you know Dave Iodanza from Dryden? He used to be like the number two, number three guy at Dryden. And they recently kind of, I don't want to say,

pushed him out. out. Dr. Johnny is one of those bigger, like we think we're bigger than they actually are. They show up on that general's like partner's side. And it's kind of weird. But people like Trident. Yeah, I like John.

I think they're a good company. But like, you know, Dave, so Dave is a buddy mine. I think he's, he is New York insurance. Like you and him, what you would love having coffee with him. He just, it's New York insurance. He knows the mutuals. He knows the games. He knows the numbers.

He knows all this stuff. and because he's been in the mutual game for so long. And he sent me some stuff, he sent me some, he probably sent me a similar chart to what you saw on like profitability and stuff. And these mutuals, you know, again,

I don't want to, it sounded like I was knocking Community Mutual. I'm not. Community Mutual is a highly profitable company. It's just insane that there is this company with probably 20 million in premium tops sitting in Skodak, New York, in a raised ranch that's making,

that's just making ungodly amounts of profit because they have this niche market. They write just property in the eastern half of New York and non-flood zones. And the rates are great on those particular properties. But they don't do anything else. And their loss ratio is nothing. And it's like, you look at this and it's like, oh, my God, these people print money. Like we're going to bang on them. And all these, you know, young kids are going to say, ah, you know, why they don't do this?

And they don't have tech integrated and download. I'm like, yeah, except they print. money. They absolutely print money. Like there's just, you know, New York Mutual, not New York Central Mutual, but New York Mutual. New York Mutual is right over here in a strip plaza. It's in a freaking strip plaza. It's like, and the comical, just because there's a tie, I mean, I'll kind of wrap three things in here. Like, the first time I met them, you know who was across the hall from, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, like, how was this amazing technology, modern company directly across the call from this company that I have to fill out a PDF

and email it to them and hopefully get a quote back this afternoon if Cindy's not busy, right? So when you say community mutual, I guess I say them out loud because who knows who's going to listen because I would love other examples to that I can't figure this part out. Kim is down in Florida. Yep. Or direct property, et cetera, et cetera. Eventually they're going to pivot. We know it's going to come.

You know, Hippo did it openly started that way. Kee will have to pivot eventually. So Cooqueat Valley, S-A-U-O-I-T. If you just head out 90, you'll run in for it. Yeah, like four employees. There are direct property insurance and like farms, right? It's amazing. Simple website, they probably, it's probably like you said,

it's just in a simple ranch building somewhere. They know who they serve and they do it amazing. Yeah. They don't give a darn about any of the web stuff. But where I get stuck is with the, what happens next? I think the Sands were you require any of these big aggregators, sooner they really develop an MGA program, sooner they really develop their own carrier,

the more interesting it gets. Yeah. But then I get stuck. So when I was out prospecting inevitably down the street and so many of it was a community bank, you got some community banks around where you are. Yep, yep. So, but they're an insurance operation, right? They have an insurance brokerage.

They're probably doing $100 million. is a year in premium. But they don't, like, who are they? Like, they're nothing. They're just, they bought little operations. They run inefficiently. It's just another line item on their stuff. And you're saying, nobody cares. Yeah.

They're just turning profits over on top of each other. And I looked, I was annoyed and shame on me for not having the courage to do it. Generations back. On an operation, they're a public company. So they have to file. And somehow they're losing money on their acquisition, right? they have to file their stuff because they're a publicly traded operation. And you read through the tort's like, how is it possible with all that infrastructure?

You're losing money. Like, like how does that happen? Now they sold their operation to a northwards. You know, Northwoods out in Boclois? I've heard of it. Yeah, yeah. It's, I look at that and like, how could you not figure this out? You have this infrastructure in place.

Banks, I think, of the future. Like if you're a bank, a bank should be banking is not the right word. Banks should be knocking down the door of regional SIA. in similar situation and saying, how do we work together? Because I think there's just such a huge crossover. And it's just, yeah. You know, there's been, there's been, uh, uh,

Sheffy and Avi over at Coverageer been writing a lot lately about embedded insurance. And, you know, I said on a somewhere, the other, right, who the fuck knows where I said it. But I said, I said sometime recently, I was like, um, I never believed that the shit that was going on in 2015, 2016, 2017 was going to disrupt our market. I do honestly believe that if there is a, I don't want to call it a technology,

but if there is something that can truly disintermediate the independent insurance, and not everybody, but make a major impact, it's embedded insurance. And I see it because we are doing it. Like we have partners that we're getting in front of and we're the insurance provider before that company even, even sniffs insurance, right? Before they even think about insurance,

they're buying something else. And then Rogue is being presented to them as, do you want an insurance quote or whatever? And then we're, that person is being sent to us on a, on a warm referral plate. Here's this company I just did a bunch of research on and bought shit from and they're telling me to use these guys

and it's being handed to us. And it's like, that's never going to get down to the baseline local agents. That business will never get there. Like, and I'm not even the best at this. I'm a C player at best right now. You know what I mean? Obviously we're trying to improve, but like there are companies.

Now, most of them right now are still run by the Silicon Valley Dix. But as soon as we get some insurance people in some of these embedded companies, dude, that's the stuff that scares the crap out of me. Because think about how many people use Venmo. Think about how many people use PayPal and da da da da da da da da da da da da da da. And now every single one of those tools is saying, hey, if you need insurance, we have a provider. every time, every time they use a function, they're being hit with it, every time it's being thrown in their face. And then Sally on your team has one bad day. She's in a bad mood. Her husband gave her a ton of shit as she's walking out the door. She shows up, kind of bags it, does something shitty.

That person looks at their Venmosis, get a quote. And they go, you know what? Fuck these guys. Beep. They get a quote and now they're gone. And you're like, what do we do? And it's because they just got hammered over the head 17 times in every platform that they're in that, to buy insurance and they decided to give it a try. And then the purists among us, and this is why I love your perspective on this, the purest among us like, you know, we're all our expertise.

Yes, there are some very complicated larger accounts that need our expertise. I get that. But more and more as the products become more and more commoditized, and guys, I have 57 markets. I have a pretty good feel for how in commoditized our industry is, even at the small business level.

right like there's only there's a certain level where we need that expertise there is i'd say 10,000 under in premium you don't need a human you certainly don't need a experience 30 year vet with all this expertise i just don't think you do there's just not enough there's not enough risk there you can package it up it's all you know mashed across the you know 100,000 accounts it's easy for the carry distribute the risk they boilerplate it and off you go i just so so you're you're human optimized. You're probably one of the first bonuses of heard it, right? You need to be able to do that.

You need to reduce the options. A million dollars is a billion dollars. New York State sets the rules. I don't care what policy, you know, header has on there. You have a billion dollars of liability. If a million dollars in liability. Stop offering $300,000. Yep.

They can be choose. It's a million. Take the numbers. It is what it is. So you're embedded. See, here's, I don't, I can't understand why it continues to be ignored. Munich Re has Hartford, Steenboiler. I know you're not looking at your service line endorsement, but let me break the news to you.

It's not coming from Safeco or the other carrier, whoever is there. Just at Safeco because it came to mind, right? It's coming from Hartford Steenboiler. They've already shown you how embedded works and white-label works. Take another one, not far from you, and it didn't pan out because the guy sold his business, which is fine, good for him. Sharon Springs Garage. You don't know it.

I don't know it. I say Sharon Springs garage, like what is it? It's a hardware store. Three locations, very successful hardware stories. Troy, Sharon Springs, and one other location. Caboto tractors. I don't own one. I don't know one. I don't expect to ever own one.

But they're financed just like cars. If you buy a caboto tractor and it's financed, guess what? You need insurance. Do you know what a pain of the asset is to end your caboto tractors to your homeowner's insurance policy? Colossal. Come on, everybody. If you're listening, you know, it's not necessarily the easiest thing. And it's also not super quick.

Yeah. So if you work with Komodo, who has Alianz and a long other company, I believe it's Alianz behind the scenes, you have Alianz paper insuring that tractor. Dang, the guy just bought a tractor worth more than your car. You think he's a good prospect? You don't think we could sell more into that? Allianz partnering up with a, and I just don't get why to be. brokers are still spending so much money on advertising, you need to partner with

all the odds and say, this guy's got 13,000 customers, emails, mailing list, everything's in place. What are we doing? So you take the embedded and you leverage it. It already exists. So don't tell me it's not going to work because it already is working. Yeah. You know, it's just, dude.

It's beautiful, though. It's exciting. I love all this stuff. Dude, I can talk to you about this shit forever. I want to be yourself with you time. My time. we're way over. You know, this is, I love these conversations.

We'll have to do this more often. I'm glad, glad you took the time. We went all over the place. Hopefully somebody likes it. Oh, no, they will. And if they don't, they can, you know, screw off because I loved it. I appreciate the hell out of you, man. If people want to just connect with you, is LinkedIn the best place?

Where's the best place if someone just wants to connect me? Most of you don't like me on Twitter. So it's like, there's a couple of us that like talk and avoid. And if you're in there, like, we have, we have dialogues, but like, and I said this, I caught some flack over something a few months ago, and I really kind of recoiled a bit. And I was like, gosh, like, you just attacked me personally. Like, it wasn't attacking my idea. It was like, they came at me personally and I got it.

And it was like one message. And it was one comment. It was one message. But I was like, you didn't attack the idea. Like, you came after me as a human being. Yeah. I'm out. Like, I'm just not going to bother.

Like, I'm not questioning anybody. I don't root. I don't have time to root against you, nor would I give a shit. to root against you. Like, we're just asking questions. We're just two people that like to think bigger. And now, listen, I'm going to put my head down and go do some pricking paper applications and just point a bunch of business.

I know what I'm talking about because I've done years of work. You've done years of work on this stuff. I get frustrated with like you said, Sheffey before. Gang, like, she's been around for seven years. Where have you been? Like, you were aware of her. You're aware of like the accelerators and stuff. Like, this stuff's been happening.

Like, you don't have to pay attention. but it's been there. Yeah. You know, I, the thing I love about Avi and Sheffi is that, um, I know they think about what they say. They do not say anything on a whim, right? And I, and they have, they have proven over time and they both come with pedigree even before they started coverger. And what I love about their perspective is they're always pushing the bounds, but I think they do it in a respectful way. And also you can disagree with them. And they will have a engaging conversation with you. And, and there are things that I, disagree with both of them on and we have awesome conversations and and then you move on and that's

what it should be uh i think both of them are wonderful i'm huge supporter and and i think that um but people will dismiss them and i'm like oh gosh guys yeah yeah at your peril yeah at your peril dismiss dismiss their perspective at your peril for sure so hey man it's good stuff appreciate you yeah be good buddy later me thank you twice as many deals by this time next week. Sound impossible, it's not. With the one-call closed system, you'll stop chasing leads and start closing deals.

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