Fitzdog Radio - Tom O'Neill - Episode 1094

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

My guest is the author of Chaos which has been on the NYT bestseller list for 33 weeks. He is also one of my closest and most interesting friends.Follow Tom O'Neill on Instagram @ChaosCharlesMansonWatch my special "You Know Me" on YouTube! http://bit.ly/FitzYouKnowMeAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

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$200 admin fee applies. Not all buyers and lessees will qualify. Restrictions apply. Not combinable with other offers. Ends 430-2025. Jeep is a registered trademark of FCA US LLC. Welcome to Fitts Dogg Radio. Amazing guest today, my dear friend

Tom O'Neill will be here. I talked to him. I think it's a couple weeks ago, actually. So I don't know if, I never know if something's gonna feel dated, but so excited. I had a great week, went to see ACDC this weekend. Holy shit, there's a bucket list concert. I mean that's one of those ones you go later like why didn't I see ACDC and you go well because they're fucking old

and the joke I kept making after the show when we were all leaving was they kind of mailed it in and everybody laughed because they were fucking killing it. 100%. Like, it's just, you know, you just can't describe the spirit behind a band like the Rolling Stones or the Who or ACDC. Like, it doesn't matter how old they are, they still got the balls. And Angus was running up and down a runway

into the crowd, fucking doing the duck step. Is that what they call it? The goose step? No, that's the Nazis. The, what do you call them when you're running on one leg and kicking your other foot forward? The duck walk? I think it's the duck walk.

He was duck walking! He's 70 years old! And it was a two hour and 15 minute concert where they were destroying. And I was shocked how many of the songs I knew. There was only like two songs I'd never heard before. Hell's Bells came on and not gonna lie to you, Little Tear ran down my, you know, rolling

thunder, firing rain, I'm coming on like a hurricane. White light flashes through the sky. You're only young, but you're gonna die. I mean, are you fucking kidding me? And then they just, and then the best part is my buddy Chris Chaney plays bass for them now. He's a guy that I've played golf with for about 10 years on every Friday. And he used to play with Jane's addiction for a lot of years. And he had he recorded Alanis

Morissette, Jagged Little Pill toured with her for years. Everybody Taylor Swift, he's like a huge, hugely respected bass player does a lot of session work for other bands. And anyway, so he started touring with ACDC last year on their European tour. And you know, he would tell me stories about flying first class, staying in four seasons, and they do one concert,

then they take two nights off afterwards so they can all rest. Where you're just getting like room service and first class, and he's hanging out with Angus, like, you know, they're going to the store together and shopping, and so it's been a dream for him. And he just killed it. I mean, I guess you don't really focus on a bass player

that much until you're watching the bass player and you see what he's doing. It's very intense. And he was amazing. And then afterwards we all went, it was Fitzsimmons, Fitzgibbons, Gibbons and Gubbins, and then Dickie and Adrian and a couple other people. So we got backstage passes after the show. and Dickie and Adrian and a couple other people.

So we got backstage passes after the show. So we're in the fucking green room with Slash and Axl Rose and all these famous old rockers are hanging out and they're all dressed the same. Everybody's got black jeans, black sneakers, concert t-shirt, leather jacket, hair's still there. They still got the hair. It's amazing. And a lot of them are buff.

They're taking care of themselves, some of these guys. You know, like Axel looked kind of ripped. And so great. It's so funny when I think about like, well just to change topics, just the idea that some people get, they bulk it, you take like skinny little bald guys and they get hair transplants and they take,

you know, testosterone and fucking whatever those bodybuilding pills are. And then they lift weights like crazy and they completely change their look. you know, testosterone and fucking whatever those bodybuilding pills are. And then they lift weights like crazy and they completely change their look. And these are always the same guys that, that, that just reject trans people as saying, well, that's not who they are. They change the way they look. Well, so did you. Anyway, quick observation.

Also went out, Jesus Christ, I went to the Bernie Sanders, I love Bernie Sanders, what can I say? I think he's a guy that consistently has said what he believes for 50 years. I think he walks the walk. It's so funny that there's all this spin, well, he owns three houses. Yeah, one's a fucking shack next to a duck pond in Vermont.

Like, whatever. Has he not earned enough as one of the biggest politicians in the country for 50 years? Anyway, so we went to see his rally and I of course posted a clip of it and got annihilated by people from the right, which I don't even know who my listeners are. I don't talk politics much.

I'm not a political person that much, but it is amazing when I put something as innocuous as a 10 second clip from a Bernie rally, how upset people get. But I have to say, we're fucked. As a Democrat, I saw those people at the rally, and I realized I could beat the shit out of 99 out of 100 of them and I'm 58 years old.

We would get, they are just the softest, NPR tote bag wearing, Birkenstock. And then I pictured the typical Trump dudes rolling up four guys in a pickup truck with mullets, packing, muscle heads. If it comes down to fists in the street, we're done. We're done. Here's a joke.

I was talking to my daughter and her friend and she was talking about how she's dating this guy but she found out that he does magic. And I was like and she goes it's deal breaker. She says it's over. I didn't know. And she goes I can't date him anymore. And I said what if he was a mime and she goes goes, no, a mime I would love. Cause then he would just be quiet and you could put him in his box.

How fucking great is that? This is just a chick my daughter hangs out with. And so I may, I say, can I use that in my act? I think I might expand on that. Here's the other thing I know. These are quick little things that I'm noticing. Went to Home Depot a lot this weekend. I built two sheds on the side of the house

and we got some flowers and plants for the backyard. Anyway, here's what I realized. If you go to Home Depot alone as a man, you feel very masculine. But if you go with your wife, you feel like a fucking cock. There's something about her saying yes and no to things that you're putting in the cart and you end up walking three or four steps behind her. So I just say to her, I'll go. You give me a list, I'll go. Here's my other notice. She likes to point out continuity problems in movies.

We're watching a movie and she goes, his shirt was untucked and then they cut to her and they cut back and his shirt was tucked in like that. And I go, oh, oh, I forgot to tell you, it's not real. It's all pretend that murderer, he's just a guy who lives in a condo in Studio City. He's even a nice guy. He's never killed, never even hurt anybody.

I know, but now he's a killer. Yeah, and that living room, it's four pieces of plywood with wallpaper on it. Yup, it's not real. Isn't that crazy? Went down to Laguna Beach also this week. My sister flew. Well, my brother was here all week. We had a blast. We had a really good, I don't know if I talked about it on the podcast. Sometimes I feel like maybe I'm repeating things on the podcast. If I am, just enjoy it. I mean, does anybody go, Hey, we're going to play free bird. No I am, just enjoy it. I mean, does anybody go,

eh, we're gonna play Freebird. No, we've already heard Freebird. Well, that last joke was a Freebird joke. You should have your lighters out, calling out, do the Home Depot bit. What joke is it you wanna hear? Home Depot! So I went down to Laguna with my sister, my son and daughter. No, my daughter didn't come. She fucking

bailed. My wife and son came down to stay with my sister and niece and her friend. And we got this really cool house in Laguna. Laguna Beach is a fun fucking town. They got good food like restaurants with decks right on the sand on the ocean and cool little coffee shops and record shops and used used clothes. I'm not into used clothing, by the way. We walked into a used clothing shop and I was like, yeah, it's someone else's shit. It stinks like mothballs and the leather is hard. It stinks like mothballs and the leather is hard.

I'm not into it. But we went down and we went to this restaurant and they pre-gamed. My niece and her friend are big drinkers and Owen was trying to keep up and he got sloshed. He had a few stiff drinks at the house and then he had a few drinks at the restaurant. And so, but he got so drunk, he was kind of saying dumb shit at the table.

And then afterwards, he was like telling me how much he loves me, which was very nice. He just, he was like, you're the best dad, you did this for me, you did that, I look up to you. It was really nice, and I really, it was almost like, I don't know, truth serum. I hope it was truth serum, or either that or he's drunk and telling me shit, but it was nice.

I gotta get people in my life around me drunk more. So they tell me how much they love me. That's all I need. I don't need to act better. I don't need to give them more gifts. I just need to get them drunk. All right, speaking of getting drunk, I'm coming to some comedy clubs in your neck of the woods.

Huntington Beach at the Mamba on May 4th. Escondido at the Grand Comedy Club May 9th and 10th. Cincinnati, The Commonwealth something on May 16th, Escondido at the Grand Comedy Club, May 9th and 10th, Cincinnati, the Commonwealth something on May 16th and 17th, it's actually in Dayton, Kentucky. Tampa Bay Side splitters June 5th through the 7th, and then a one-nighter in Naples, Florida at Off the Hook, June 8th,

also coming to Torrance in June, Austin, Texas, 4th of July weekend at the mothership, Point Pleasant, New Jersey, La Jolla, Vegas, Chicago, New Orleans, go to fitsdog.com, pick up some tickets, come see live comedy, give me a hug, bring me some fucking Honey Nut cashews from Trader Joe's, a lot of people do that because they know I love them.

Also don't forget there's new merch for Sunday papers, hats, t-shirts, mugs. For the fifth anniversary, go to fitzdog.com for the merch as well. Wear it proud. All right, screw gonna proud. My guest today is one of my dearest friends for the last 25 years, maybe more, maybe 30 years.

We were next door neighbors in Little Italy in New York for years and then moved out to LA around the same time, lived three doors away from each other in Venice Beach for about fucking, I don't know, 10 years. And he's very close to the family. My kids consider him an uncle and he's just, he's got a circle of friends that I love. He loves my friends from other places like college

and then he's got a cast of characters as friends and we all spend a lot of time together and it's nice. I could tell you stories all day about us but I'll just get to the interview because I think we get into some good stories in the interview. His book, Chaos, has been on the bestseller list, the New York Times bestseller list,

for 33 weeks straight. And it's huge. You probably heard him on Joe Rogan talking about it. You heard him once before on this show talking about it. And we had a great conversation. I think we're going to have to have another one. There's a lot to get to. So here he is, my buddy Tom very big show today.

Here, move that mic right next to your face there. Like this? No, pull the whole thing towards you. There you go. Am I looking at a camera? No, you look at me. Okay. Well, why are we facing that way?

Well, because the cameras are there. It's called cheating to the camera. I'm usually doing this in your den or something. I know. I did your first show ever. Very first show. Oh, right. With Karen Kilgareff. That's right. Maybe it wasn't the very first one, but it was the first season.

It was one of the first shows and I remember, didn't she, you thought you were were gonna be the solo guest and then she showed up? No. You had a cancellation and you asked me I lived two doors away if I could show up at like for whatever time and a couple hours and do it and I said talk about what and you said my book and I said my book is not done or published I can't't, anything interesting I can't say. And you just said, I had a cancellation. We'll talk about, we'll figure out a way to talk about it without getting you in trouble. So when I got, walked over to your house,

a town car pulls up and this woman gets out, it's before Uber, and she's kind of lost. And she said, are you from this neighborhood? I go, yeah. And she goes, do you know where, whatever your address is? I go, Greg Fitzsimmons. She goes, yeah, yeah, I'm late. I go, right there, I'm going in there too.

And we both kind of looked at each other and I thought, oh, maybe she's going to see Aaron. You double booked because you assumed that one of us wasn't gonna make it. So you didn't tell her I was coming. I assumed you weren't gonna make it. I lived two doors away. So then we sit and luckily, had she just been fired from Ellen? Yes. So you just shat on Ellen for 45

minutes and I just sat there like a dummy nodding my head and laughing. Yeah. And then finally you turned to me to talk about the book and I said there's not a whole lot I can say and I think that was it. That was my first ever podcast, and my last one for a long time. No, you've done it, when the book came out, we did a big long one. Oh yeah, yeah, this was the first one though. That was probably five or 10 years later.

When did you start this podcast series? 14 years ago. Yeah, that was the first year. Yeah. And then the book came out in 2019, right? I did do it, I forgot. So, just so people have some background on us, we were neighbors on Mulberry Street in Little Italy

back in, I would say, 95? Yeah, maybe 93 or 94. No, no, 93. No, 93. It was a year you died, die, what year you died. Yeah, 93. Yeah, I thought it was soon enough. Yeah, so for 93, and Tom put a roof over my head.

He found me an apartment. The first of a couple roofs. What are you talking about? Two apartments in that building. Oh, right. And then a couple in Venice. Oh, really? Yeah.

I tipped you off. I spoke to landlords. Definitely to a New York. Tom likes to keep score with his friends and hold things over your head. I'm Italian and Irish. Yeah. And so we ended up living three doors away

from each other in Venice after having lived one door away from each other on Mulberry Street. My kids grew up with you, they call you uncle. Mother and mother things, yeah. My old tenant used to call you something else, I can't remember. Stop it. So we have a long history, but more importantly, you're here today to talk about there's new news, there's a breaking story. Didn't you say you were going to come, you can only come late in the day

because there was news on the John F. Kennedy files? No, no, you don't pay attention. That was yesterday. Oh. And I said I needed to watch the hearings because two of the researchers I've worked with were testifying. I had no idea what they were gonna say.

It went pretty well. What hearings? They had congressional hearings yesterday, Representative Luna, the one who's in charge of making sure that the archive that Trump has promised was gonna be released, gets released, and she's actually using it as a pedestal now. So she had public hearings, which are unnecessary,

but I wanted to see how these guys handled it and what they said. And it was kind of a freak show because it was Congress, not Senate, and those people are much more showboaty than senators are. So they were all making it about Trump and politics. Like they wanted the witnesses

who are Kennedy assassination experts, including Oliver Stone, he testified, to talk about, you know, are you gonna thank President Trump and isn't it great Trump is releasing this? Really? Yeah, and one of them, Jefferson Morley, who's the most knowledgeable person on this entire subject said,

you know, I'm not here for partisan politics. Like one of them started saying, why didn't Joe Biden release these? I thought, and then he said, I'm here to talk about substance. What's been released so far, what we were promised that we still haven't been released, because a lot of stuff is still withheld.

And a lot of stuff that's been released has been redacted. Heavily redacted. Both things Trump promised wouldn't happen. Everything's late, everything's a shit show. They've released files with social security numbers of living people in them. No way. Yeah, so they haven't redacted the only thing

that they really should be allowed to redact, the personal information. And then they have large redactions of some of the most important CIA documents, which defeats the purpose. So luckily, the good thing about these hearings was they called them out on that. And they challenged Trump to stop doing that

and to release more, but it's so partisan. It was just dumb. So what was the, there was one author's name, James Douglas, JFK and the Unspeakable. Oh yeah, he wasn't there. Will he speak? No, no, no, but he and I have become friends. He's too old to travel. He's like 90.

All right, but I want to talk about that because I listened to that book on tape because you told me to. And I mean, it lays out such a clear case of, it's mostly focused on the motivation of the CIA to take Kennedy out. And it talks about how he was starting a communication with Khrushchev in Russia.

He was starting to open up talks with Castro and he was ending the Cold War and the CIA was an institution built on the Cold War. Yeah, it came out of the OSS which was the predecessor to the CIA which was our foreign spying during World War II. So on World War II end of the OSS, OSS was still overseas, still doing spying work as everybody was partitioning. And then they're like, all right, it's time to go home. But they wanted this internal operation

that was great at spying to continue in the US. So that's when they named it the CIA. And no invoices. It's a, there's just bags of money being handed overseas. So I can tell you something about him. Douglas is, he reached out to me about a year and a half ago and he's doing a follow-up book.

Oh, he is. Yeah, and he's, I've shared a lot of my Jack Ruby stuff with him, he's really nice and very, you know, he's, his book is considered probably the definitive and the best on the Kennedy assassination. And there's lots, I mean, there's hundreds. Hundreds. And his is really the most sober and substantiated

and well-investigated. Now, I can't remember how old he is, I think he's at least 90, and he lives down south, like in Mississippi, next to a train track. So he'll call me, and you literally hear the train whistle going by, and he's very sweet, very soft spoken, and very religious.

I think it's Catholicism, but he invokes God and Jesus a lot. And he said, I'm attributing all this stuff to you in my book. He said, your Ruby stuff has helped my research, yeah. Well, just so people know, if you didn't read, Tom is the author of Chaos. What's the?

Chaos, Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the 60s. Okay, so he wrote this book. People, you've been on the? Chaos, Charles Manson, the CIA, and the secret history of the 60s. Okay, so he wrote this book. People, you've been on the show before, but just if you haven't, it took him 20 years to write it. It came out, it blew the roof off the Bugliosi case, or if you listen to the audio book, the Bugliosi case. Bugliosi, Bugliosi is the prosecutor who put them in prison.

The Manson murders. Who made a whole career off of the trial and then the book Helter Skelter, which is the best-selling true crime book of all time, still today, about his prosecution. And he ends up, he's kind of the hero, when I began this, he was a hero who I thought I was gonna elevate and, you know,

and I found out that he was, actually he cheated at the trial and lied and hid evidence and misrepresented a lot of stuff and committed crimes so he ends up becoming as much of a boogeyman in my book as Manson. And this was at the behest of the CIA that wanted a certain narrative about Charles Manson. Let's say the federal government, because I've never been able to prove who, but the federal government was interfering and enabling Manson. And then I present theories in the book about which agencies it probably was with the CIA being the leading candidate.

Why do we say it wrong? Co-Intel Pro? Co-Intel Pro is the FBI's. Oh, okay. Operation Cointel Pro, and then the CIA had Chaos, Operation Chaos and MKUltra. And Manson, in my view and in my reporting, and again, I always preface this by saying, it's not proven, it's just circumstantial,

but Manson was enabled and possibly created by these groups who were intersecting with him from the time he was released from prison in 67 until the murders and after the murders and his capture in October of 69. And what's the what's the most scared you because you're talking about you know the most evil dangerous organization in America the CIA and you're talking about the most evil, dangerous organization in America, the CIA, and you're putting a light on them. What's the moment you were most afraid

of retaliation from them? You're not bringing up that JoJo story. Well, you might want to tell that. Yeah. I mean, Bully O.C. was the only person that really ever frightened me, the prosecutor, once he realized what I was doing and he tried to stop it and the threats that were coming from him were amazing. And you knew at this point that he'd abused his wife, he'd threatened a guy who... He'd committed

crimes involving other people. He beat up a mistress, caused her to miscarry. She reported it to the police. He went to her apartment with a secretary and a typewriter and held her captive until she agreed to write, to sign. He had to have a cover story for why, what happened was this was his mistress, she got pregnant, didn't want to have an abortion. have a cover story for why she, what would happen was, this was his mistress, she got pregnant, didn't wanna have an abortion, he said she had to,

he gave her $200 for the abortion, set her up with a doctor, and she lied to him and said she'd had the abortion, and he called the doctor, and of course the doctor violated his confidentiality with his patient, and said she never came in for the abortion. He went to her apartment and beat the hell out of her and she miscarried.

She went to the Santa Monica police after he left the house and I have all the photographs, you know, the bruising and all, he just kicked the hell out of her. And then the next day it was in the newspapers. This is about five years after he became famous for Tate LaBianca. So he immediately went back to her apartment, this time with the secretary and a typewriter,

and it took, I think, about three hours for them to persuade her to go back to the police and say she lied, that the only reason that she had gone and said he beat her up was because he was trying to get her to pay him an outstanding bill for legal services. That her, it was true, her ex-husband wasn't paying

child support, but he said, the story is you've never met me face to face. I gave you phone legal advice and you owed me the money and you were just trying to shame. I mean, it was such a ridiculous story. And then they typed up a bill and she signed it. And the secretary was an accomplice to this. It was his long time secretary, Barbara Silver in Nevada.

Still alive. Actually, she just died about a year ago. Okay, we can still besmirch her. I reached out to her kids finally. Anyway, that died about a year ago. Okay we can still besmirch her. I reached out to her kids finally. Anyway that's a whole other story. So she and I have the tape recording of her telling when she filed a civil suit against Vince later of her telling this whole story. I have it on my social media portion of it and she basically said when he came back with the secretary, he never hit me that day, she was there, but he threatened me, he cried, he begged me,

and I finally just did it to get them out of the house. So she called the Santa Monica Police Department with them there, and she said she wanted to come in and withdraw her charge, that it was a false charge, and they immediately sensed something was wrong, and they said, all right, we'll send a car to get you, and she said, and Vince is there, she's telling the story later in her civil suit,

and he's going, no, no, no, no, no, they can't come here, and she goes, no, no, no, don't come here, I'm a few blocks away, I'll just walk over now, and they said, okay, and they sent a car, and the car got there with the two patrolmen and Vince wouldn't let them in the house. Wouldn't let the cops in? Wouldn't let the cops in.

Eventually, Vince called his own attorney, Robert Steinberg, who came and negotiated something. So Vince went into the police station, called up the DA of Santa Monica. I didn't even know there was a district attorney of Santa Monica, but there is. That guy said, we're gonna take care of this. We're gonna let her new story that she was gonna tell stand.

So Vince ended up with his complicity telling the police and then telling the media that it was a false case, that he'd never met her face to face. I interviewed the cops that showed up at the house when he was there. So the police and the DA were complicit. The two patrol cops were like, we couldn't do anything about it.

We would have lost our jobs. So he ended up saying that she had lied about being beaten up. He'd never met her. He wasn't at the house. That never came out until my book that he was at the house when they came. And there's a pattern of this behavior.

There's other cases I found where he did the same thing. He thought. All right, so this is all leading up to how you're scared of him. So at what point did you think he's coming for me? Oh gosh, I wasn't really scared of the CIA or anyone else except for him.

But at one point I got nervous because I'd leave my house for a few weeks at a time and my house was kind of vulnerable. It was an old bungalow, not good locks, ground level. I don't live there anymore so don't come and try to get my stuff. But I think the story Fitz likes to tell is he went back East for Christmas before I did

with your young family and asked me to water plants or something which I did for you know I went a week later and then you came back earlier and I guess your kid Jojo was like a little girl maybe three or four or five and she asked what all these boxes were in her closet, and I had forgotten to tell Fitz that I didn't feel safe leaving all of my sensitive files in my mungo. So basically my daughter's room was housing documents that would have gotten you killed.

Yeah, but they weren't gonna hurt her. Maybe they'd hold her in exchange for the, I don't know. Yeah, just bring a typewriter and a secretary and hold her. Yeah. That was more, I was worried that people were gonna break in the house and steal the stuff. So you were never worried for your life? I was worried from Vince.

I mean, Vince was violent. Yeah. Yeah. But I wasn't, and crazy. Yeah. But I wasn't really, I don't know, some of the drug, in the beginning of my reporting I was looking into the possibility, which I'm still not sure doesn't have something to do with it, that there was a drug deal that went wrong at the Tate House.

And there were three, no, five guys who were narcotics, international narcotics travelers, who the police believed had committed the murders in the first week or two. And I found three of them and I was interviewing them. And one of them was in Canada and he was pretty crazy. And the reason they became more important was I also found out that they were working for military intelligence so they fit into the CIA thing.

And the one guy, Billy Doyle, would tell me that he could easily hire a Mexican and pay him $100 to shoot me with a rifle from the corner of Oakwood and Venice. He found out my address. And he was in Canada. I probably never told you that. Yeah.

It's in the book though. Yeah, so that was a little scary. And his partner, Charles Taco, also threatened me. But Taco, who was 6'4", ex-Marine, he was then about 75 and I would go to his nursing home and he'd start cursing and yelling at me from his hospital, but there wasn't a whole lot he could do. And then he really loved Coco's, which was a restaurant. Of course.

I don't even know if it still exists. I think the one and only time I went there, I took him there for lunch. So an attendant from the nursing home wheels him out in a wheelchair, and then he lifts him and puts him into the front seat of my car, and then pulls up the chair, puts it in the back,

and I'm like, oh fuck. So we get to Cocos, and I have to, it's an intimate thing to lift a man and put him in a wheelchair. We had the lunch, it got pretty intense, he was starting to threaten me, and then when I was lifting him back into the car, he's saying, I could kill you on the own.

I was like, Charlie, I can just drop you here and drive away. There's so much absurd stuff. But there was a lot of interviews that you did. You were driving into the desert, you were driving to Northern California and you were tracking down these guys that were on their deathbeds, that were finally willing to talk about stuff.

Lots of deathbed confessions, yeah. Deathbed confessions. Yeah, it was fun. There was one I think that was, you got to a little too late. Didn't somebody die? Oh, they always, it was weird. Some people I would... I'd call up and someone in their family would say, they just died yesterday. Yeah.

I wonder which one you're talking about. I think it was a California investigator, California state cop investigator or something. Huh. But we would get bits and pieces over the 20 years that Tom wrote this book. You don't have to keep saying 20 years but it was yeah it was a long time. We would have we would have dinner parties and afterwards Tom would be over served sometimes with wine. Not after, during. From the beginning. Well you'd show up with a paper cup with a straw and it filled with wine and then you'd you'd bring a bottle of wine with you, as if you're bringing it to the party,

but then you would drink the whole bottle and then take another one with you on the way out the door. Well, you aren't exactly the biggest drinker. I mean, what? And we couldn't, we had no wine left in the house. Somebody had to drink it. And so you would let slip things after a few glasses and so we basically got the book in bits and pieces

and every time you'd tell us, you'd say like, you'd look both ways and go, all right, I shouldn't be talking about this. No, it was more like I- And we called you Radio Tom. Yeah, I didn't wanna talk about it because not because I was scared so much, but more because you can't just talk about it because not because I was scared so much, but more

because you can't just talk about it for a minute or two. You have to give context because it sounds so crazy if you try to do sound bites. And I would think, oh my God, these people are going to so regret asking me, you know, what did you find out this week or this month or something? It's too hard to explain. But you guys all get bored with each other. I'm not talking about you and your wife, but you you guys all get bored with each other. I'm not talking about you and your wife, but you and your friends get bored with each other.

So I'm like the performing monkey at the table. No, but you're so good. You're very generous when you meet somebody new. Like I remember one night you came with me to a club to watch me do standup. And then we went out with my friend to dinner afterwards. Kira Sultanovich. Remember we went to that.

I don't even know that, is that a man or a woman? No, a woman, dark hair. Oh, that was a couple years, like a year ago. About a year ago. Yeah, she was great. But I'm just saying, in situations like that, you're very generous in setting up the whole thing for them, you tell your whole story, you don't seem bored by it.

It's the only way I don't sound fucking crazy if I don't do that, I'm gonna, she's gonna think I'm nuts. I know, but a lot of people just go, I don't seem bored by it. It's the only way I don't sound fucking crazy. If I don't do that, I'm gonna, she's gonna think I'm nuts. I know, but a lot of people just go, I don't wanna talk about it. But do you ever get tired of talking about it? I only did like a podcast an hour ago. Oh, did you finish the Rick Rubin one? No, no, shh, that's not announced, I don't care.

No, no, I did one today and I told you, I said it's supposed to only be an hour and it's a zoom thing. Yeah. But they're paying me. Yeah. And so I, you know, I said, it'll be done in four and I live without traffic 10 to 15 minutes from this beautiful studio. And you said, all right, 430. But you know, the guys went way over. It was like 4.15, and I finally had to say, I didn't say I'm going to another podcast. I said, I have a doctor's appointment.

And I said, I feel awful, not because you guys paid me that much money, but because I'm leaving. And I said, I really thought it was only an hour. And they said, but we just want to extend. And I said, all right, look, after the doctor's appointment, if you want, I'll come back and you can ask me more questions. For more money?

No, no, no, I felt bad. You know, they were young. You're the only person I know that insists on being paid for podcasts. And you get it. Like, podcasts I've been on for free, you get on them and you get paid money. Well, not like the big guys, like,

well you, I didn't ask for money really. No, that's what I'm saying, I'm the only one. Yeah, but then you say to me, can we do it on Tuesday at one o'clock? No, no, I got a paid one then. So I'm behind everybody else because God forbid you come on and talk to me for free after taking dozens of bottles of wine

from my house over the years. No and you also have been promoting my I mean you wouldn't have my book broke through because he got me on Rogan. I've never failed to thank you for that but you do say you were gonna have a drink or something here for me. I do feel bad about that. That's alright. That's why I got my water. You got your water but it's, I want to talk about your brother a little bit who was in the news this week. He's in... You saw that. Yeah, I was very, very, I'm always very impressed by your brother. But I know people can't believe we're from the same parents. What are you talking about? You're very intellectual too. I know, but he's so much more valiant than I am. Than anybody is.

He's truly... He's the envoy to Haiti for the Than anybody is. He's truly. He's the envoy to Haiti for the UN right now. He's always been a human rights lawyer working for small like indie firms, just protecting people who don't have, you know, who need protection. Haiti's been a specialty for like 30 or 40 years. So he was over there.

He goes over, they won't let him go half the time. He has to fight to go. And he says, I can't do my work unless you're going to let me go to Port-au-Prince. And that's where, you know, he's interviewing and trying to fix it's anarchy. It's horrible. And the UN says, we can't afford to protect you. You know, we need tanks and shit. He can't leave the hotel without armed guards because he's a kidnapping target, but he still wants to take that chance. So he would just come back and address the UN or something

and watch the whole video. But the conditions. I mean, I see video of Haiti right now. I mean, it's like Gaza. I mean, stuff is just leveled. There's intermittent electricity. There's no running water. The gangs have taken over the government at this point.

The gangs run the country, and the country's never recovered from the earthquake. You know, the waters are poisoned, the food supply, and there's just, it's like hell. And the earthquake was followed pretty soon after by a horrible hurricane. Yeah, yeah, and they have hurricanes all the time. Yeah.

Yeah, it's awful. I mean, I was actually, this is how long he's been doing it, during the Clinton administration, I was going over there, because he was living there, he was stationed there for like two years. And he said if you really, it wasn't that dangerous then. It was when Aristide was president. And so Clinton was what, the early 90s?

96? Something like that. When I still live in New York. So he said, you can come over and, you just can't go out at night, but you can go out in the daytime, it's fine. And you can stay in our hotel. They had a hotel with a whole wing

for the relief workers and lawyers. So I bought my ticket. People got laid there a lot. I wouldn't have to pay for it then. Anyway. Wow, that sounded nice. Backtrack on that one. Jesus. He sets these traps.

Anyway, he's supposed to be a friend. Yeah, and not paying you. And not paying me, not even giving me a drink. But anyway, literally the day before I go, Clinton, they had to order, there was a coup, and they had, Clinton ordered all Americans out of the country. Yeah. And they were on a ship. Yeah. And my brothers like, you can't come. and they had, Clinton ordered all Americans out of the country. And they were on a ship.

And my brother's like, you can't come, you can't get into the country, we're not there, we're on a ship and we're trying to figure out if they're gonna let us back in or we're being flown back. And I said, I paid for my ticket, Billy. You know, it was like $400 round trip from New York. He goes, you're gonna have to eat it.

And I said, but I can't, I was so, you know, thrifty and broke then. I said, I'll find a way. And he's, no, you will be killed. And they won't let you, when you land, you won't get off the, the planes have stopped, I think. I said, can I go on the boat at least? With the Navy guys?

Can't come on the boat, so I never got there. That's how long he's been doing it. No way. Yeah, yeah. And what is it about Haiti do you think has captured his attention all these years? He's always been, so when, he and I moved to New York together. I transferred to NYU Film School in 1978 from the Calistula, this little college in the Twin Cities.

And he started law school at NYU and we got an apartment together in Park Slope before anybody wanted to live in Park Slope, 78. And we couldn't be more different. He's eight years older than me and he just does, I mean, he's never done DRUGS before, I don't think. I think he smoked pot in college. I've never seen him have a fight with anyone.

He's the nicest person in the world. You know, went to high school, a Jesuit high school, scholar athlete, all-American basketball. Doesn't he have a master's and a doctorate? Oh yeah, he's got everything. Yeah. And wait, what did you say? What was the question? What is... Why is he so attracted to working with Haiti? So when he finished law school, he got married, so I went up, I couldn't live there with he and the wife. But when he finished law school,

he got a job at a park avenue farm, and you know, finance law or whatever, and it was miserable, and you know, I go there to maybe borrow money sometimes. you know you'd have to go past ten different secretaries and he'd come out with a tie and he just seemed miserable and I think he's making tons of money. It was only there like a year or two and he's making a fortune yeah and then all of a sudden he said I can't do it anymore and he started working for I think it was called the New York, the Lawyers for Human Rights.

So I go to borrow money from him at that place in Chelsea. Not as many secretaries. And it was like, no, sir. I mean, and like the women were bare feet and he'd be in blue jeans and a t-shirt and he was never happy or he was making nothing. Yeah. And he's never done anything since.

He's just done human rights law. Haiti became especially, he got something called a Watson Traveling Fellowship where he studied in college, I think after his first year of college, or no, when he graduated. He was a finalist for the Rhodes, didn't get it. The Rhodes Scholarship, which Clinton got

and a lot of other prominent people got, he was told by one of the guys in the jury, he said, we literally had to flip a coin, because we couldn't, we wanted both. But he got the Watson Traveling Fellow and he went to Africa and he studied French colonization in Africa. So he became really interested in African countries that had been colonized by the French, and Haiti was too. And he spoke French, and so he ended up starting to do a lot of pro bono human rights work for Haitians in the United States,

and then going over when the whole country imploded. And he speaks Creole, which is the native language, and just never stopped caring about Haiti when nobody cares anymore. So how much of the time has he been gone over the years? Well, the last. Is he based out of D.C. now? No, no, no, he's in New York.

Oh, he is? Because the UN's in New York. So he just became, I mean, before he's always with different human rights groups or just alone doing, and he represents other, like ever since Trump was, when he won the election in November, my brother started doing tons of prep work

for the immigrants who had to be protected from ICE. So when I saw him at Christmas, I'm like, what are you doing? And he said, well, we've been operating out of a church and they come to us. I go, from what countries? He goes, every country, Sierra Leone, well, we've been operating out of a church and they come to us. I go, from what countries? He goes, every country, Sierra Leone, Haiti, all immigrants who don't have all their papers

or maybe they're completely illegal. And they advise them what rights they have and how not to get what's happening now picked up. Since El Salvador, yeah. Oh yeah, and the Latin, and he said, but this was at Christmas, he said, they can't come to the church anymore because we're being surveilled.

You know, even before Trump was inaugurated, what, like January 20th or something, this was Christmas, he said, so now we're meeting them clandestinely, we're going to other churches and other places because they know where we've been counseling them. So he's always cared about people more than, I mean he and his wife don't have kids

so they can afford to be a little less. What does she do? Oh she's a, she teaches at Columbia. She's got the best job in the world. Her specialty is healthcare and insurance. So about 15 years ago she got a contract with New York City. She teaches brand new cops and brand new firemen how to navigate their health insurance.

Is this that complicated? Oh yeah, it's hard. Oh my God. So she teaches them and they love her and they'll do these cruises where it's like all the firemen when they finished the class with her yeah they'll take her and she's the only woman on the cruise and it's like it goes around New York City yeah and there's like 200 firemen and 200 cops and some are like can I come?

and then she mostly teaches up at Columbia about health care and shit like that yeah she went to Harvard. Wow. And now, did you feel, because you wrote this book for 20 years, did you feel, I know you did feel at certain times, like the black sheep of the family. Oh yeah, yeah.

Why was the black sheep before the book? Yeah. Because that was the third kid. So I was, so I had two older brothers, and then I was the last kid until my sister came four years later. But, you know, and my two older brothers were model, you know, students and athletes.

They did nothing wrong, so somebody had to misbehave. And then when my sister came, you know, my mom finally got the little girl, so then I was really neglected. So I was the only kid in the family to get in trouble, and I got in trouble all the time. But is it vindicating? It's not vindicating because I know you didn't begrudge anybody anything but was it sort of like validating to finally become on you've been on the New York Times bestseller list for how many weeks? 32. 32. My agent wrote an email and he said, you know that's eight months, it's almost a year.

And- And this is five years into the book being released. Yeah, it just started last summer. So it's been eight months off and on. And we went off today of the paperback. We were nine last week in the top 10 paperback nonfiction. We went off today and I knew we were going off

because I followed the sales and I can guess it. So I got an email from my agents today. They get the New York Times list on Wednesday. It's published at four o'clock our time. So I usually, I check but I don't have to because they always let me know. So the email said fell off the paperback list today but we're on the audio book.

And that's not just, so I'm not competing against hardcover. I mean, in paperback, you're just competing against paperback, not hard or audio. But for audio, you're competing against hard and soft. So. Oh, I see. And I know we're gonna be back on next week because the sales have been really, really great

the last week because someone's talking about it on their podcast. You're not gonna mention who. Not because that person's competition to you, but because that person does have a larger platform than just about anybody except for Rogan, and she's embraced it. And I am not going to say anything bad about her at the moment, but she's been talking about it for three straight days for some reason, and the book just went way, way, way up.

So we'll be back on next week again. Well,'s just talk about without naming names let's just talk about the fact that this book is it feeds into deep state theories. Yeah so the right wing has embraced it. And you know when it was coming out in 2019 Trump was our president I don't have my politics I'm an old lefty you know Democrat through and through. And came out in 2019, he'd been in office maybe a year or so. And my other brother, Timmy,

who's not the human rights lawyer, he's just a real estate lawyer, he said to me, when this comes out, Trump, the mega crowd is just gonna embrace it. And I'm like, why? And he goes, because you're exposing the deep state. And I said, but I'm talking about everything I'm talking about ended in 75.

He goes, that will not matter to them. And I said, it's not gonna happen. And you know, it came out and it didn't really happen. I mean, and we only did okay for the first six months. And I really thought, oh shit, it's going off. You know, it's not gonna be selling anymore and I gotta get another job or do the follow-up. And then he saved me and got wrote, got me on Rogan was changed everything.

And I think the spring of 2020, it really wasn't until Trump announced that he was running, running again. And the Magga world had become so much more kind of, I don't want to say the who talked about, two of them talked about the book for like 20 minutes. Really? All these people in that world are really kind of elevating it and telling everybody to read it. And I'm just glad people are reading it. I mean, I just want the information. Can we talk about where we went to the holiday party? Who's behind it from?

Oh yeah, yeah. Peter Thiel. Yeah. So Peter Thiel, who created PayPal and has basically got JD Vance elected and is a you know. So he, give the history of like how you got in touch, how he got in touch with you and what your relationship has been. Yeah so I can't remember if it was after Rogan. After Rogan, I started getting a lot of people

reaching out to me, because he's got such a massive audience. I think it must have been after. So Teal's guy, his inside guy that arranges stuff for him, reached out and said, "'Peter Teal would love to have you up to his house "'for a dinner.'" I'm like, what does that entail?

And he said, well, he has a dinner party. He tries to do it once a week and he has a different guest every week. And we just kind of wine and dine you and hope that you'll talk to us and tell us about what you do. And like I said, politically, I'm the opposite of him. And this was in 2020.

So actually Trump was still president and Teal famously was the first openly gay man to speak at the Republican convention when he endorsed him. And Trump wanted him, wanted to put him in the cabinet in some kind of national security advisors or something. And I don't think that's a secret. Teal told me this in confidence, but I'm sure he would. Radio Tom.

He just said he was gonna do it until he read the disclosure forms and all the stuff he had to disclose about his life. And he said, I wasn't willing to share that with the federal government, so I turned him down and I said I'll informally advise you. I actually like him, he's a nice guy. So I went to the dinner and it was about a dozen people, one of them

was an old friend of yours, the guy that profiles you for the New York Times. Oh sure, yeah. Neil Strauss. Neil Strauss. He was great, I liked him. And then they invited me back the next week and ever since then I get invited to Christmas parties and events and I got invited to a movie this past weekend that he screened and I think Fitz came to at least one. Book readings.

Oh so yeah they had me speak to his company a couple years ago and that was at the top of a tower on Sunset Boulevard. That was nice. They had food and booze. But the Christmas party was like, I mean I've been to mansions in LA before but this is like three of the biggest mansions I've ever seen pushed together.

And you walk in and there's flame throwers and there's a DJ. Aerialists, people up in the sky doing like acrobats. There's a sushi bar that's got a dozen sushi chefs all making, it's a circle, an island and they're inside of it making stuff. There's a... There were like 20 food stations like that. Yeah, Korean barbecue.

Of every different kind of food you could... Yeah, and then they had a wine cellar. We could go down and have like, you know, Korean barbecue. Every different kind of food you could. And then they had a wine cellar. We could go down and have like $1,000 bottles of wine. Your buddy, Mike Gibbons was there and he was going absolutely crazy because I guess he knows fine wine and fine whiskey. And he'd come running up. Yeah, they had a whiskey bar.

They're serving such and such scotch. I'm like, I don't know, scotch. He's like, it's like a $2,000 bottle of scotch, let's go. And we'd go down and just start, you know. Plus we walked in and there was a mushroom bar and so we're all tripping on mushrooms as we're watching people juggle fire and contortionists. And they had those samurai bands,

like these guys with like little just bikinis on them. They look like samurai, not the sumo wrestlers, but they weren't, and they're playing these drums and didn't they have a stage and a performance of something? Yeah, yeah. Well, it was a dance floor. Yeah, no, no, but they had an,

they had a theater where they had like, they were doing like Follet-Bouche, the French show, the showgirls. It was, yeah, it was insane. And then there was this poor standup comic. And then you guys all fucking ditch me. We're hanging out and you're like, we're gonna go see the standup comedian.

I'm like- Well, you wouldn't come in. I'm like, I'm on mushrooms. I gotta go watch a comedian who's probably gonna recognize me. And he's in the middle of like performing at some billionaire's party bombing. And he's gonna look at me and go like,

what are you doing here? So I didn't go in the room. The guy was pretty good, do you remember his name? Yeah, I really like that guy. He has crazy hair, he's friends with Zoe, your friend Zoe. Yeah, yeah. Is it Saul Trejo?

Yeah, I think that was it. And he had the funny, Gibbs can do this, I can't retell a joke, but he's looking at the audience and he had a couple moments where he was just bombing. And he started saying, hey look, I didn't know I was gonna be playing to people who arrived here on their helicopters who have never been to Ralph's.

He goes, I just was told to do a gig and you guys can't relate to my humor and they couldn't, it wasn't his fault. Well the whole audience was like, it was like guys that were obviously geeks their whole lives. Techies. And now they've got on like Italian blazers

and those like tight pants that go to your ankles and all these bored looking Asian women. But you and Gibbs were miserable because you said there were not beautiful women. There were no beautiful women. There were a lot of beautiful women there. According to who? Me.

And you're an expert on beautiful women? I don't have to be a heterosexual to appreciate women, man. I met that neuroscientist who looked like a Vogue model or something who I introduced. And then you guys said she's the only attractive one here. And I said, even if she were the only one, she's also a neuroscientist, so that makes up for it. She counts as like 100 beautiful women,

and she was great. But I still think you guys were just looking to be all pissed off because you wanted to have a reason not to be happy. He didn't, Fitz didn't come this year because you were traveling, I think. So Gibbs came and he brought our friend, Nicky, or Dicky Egan, And I got way over served and introduced to all

kinds of hallucinogenics I had never done before. So they lost me when they wanted to leave. And then when we left, they give you can take gift have gifts. Yeah, I had like three shopping bags full of crap stuff they weren't they weren't even giving away. Oh, yeah, I took these ornaments, I mean these decorations for the party and it was great this year. Well the guy, I met the guy, you and I always compete

when we go out in public together. Well you brought me to the Oscars one year and I brought you to the Emmys party. No, no, the Grammys party. All right, yeah, last year. And we always have a competition of who's gonna get recognized more. And I pretty consistently beat you.

Well, the Oscars, I didn't get any points at all. And you're a public performer. I was an entertainment reporter who did a little bit of TV stuff, but I made the bet with Fitz, which was stupid. And you would think that he would forgive it because I brought him to the Oscars. He still collected.

But the bet was, I think if somebody recognized you or me, you got like one point if they waved from across the room, two points if they walked up and said hello, three points if they hugged you said hello three points if they hugged you I think five if they talked to you I don't think we even had the camera this is like 1999 or something yeah I think five points if they talked to you for more than a minute or two so I don't even remember who you saw but you saw I thought I saw Red Skelton remember I ran up up to some- No, you saw Red Buttons. I thought I saw Red Buttons.

And so I ran up and I told him I was a big fan and he looked at me like I was crazy because he was really like somebody's plus one. And you wanted the points because you thought he was gonna recognize you. But you ran into three or four people and I didn't run into anyone. No, no.

And then the Grammys party was a stupid bet for me to make because there were like 20 comics there. Nicky Glazer, Jeff Ross. All your crew, that guy that produces Howard Stern, Baba Bui. Baba Bui was there and how about that woman we sat with? She was the black woman. Oh relax, you're still talking about her.

Oh my gosh, she was amazing. Anyway, so let's get back to before we wrap up, because I don't want to pay you more than $1,000. I mean nothing. Didn't even get the drink I was promised, but all right. You know the book sales you're gonna make from this interview? I know, yeah.

Well, I can never begrudge anything since you got the ball rolling with Rogan, and it wasn't easy. I don't know if you've talked about it on the podcast. He very kindly, Fitz said before the book came out that he was doing Rogan. And I didn't know a whole lot about Rogan. I just knew his name and that he had a pretty big platform.

But Fitz said, this is so in his book. It covers every base that he's interested in. What do I tell him about this before the book came out? And I said, well, you know, I've been talking about it for 20 years, just say this, that, and the other thing. So Fitz did it and you said that Rogan just wasn't paying attention when you met, you talked about it off mic.

Maybe if you talked about it on mic. But anyway, after, so nothing happened. I never really thought it might, but then he was doing it again, like six months later, and you said, give me something written down to hand to him. I said, well, I'll give you the book. He goes, no, no, you have a synopsis. So I gave him the book and I gave him like a one,

you a one page synopsis. And then later that afternoon, the same day you tape, he calls me up and he says, I just changed your life. You're still looking for points too. I mean, you thought maybe finally you had equaled me putting roofs over your head. Three or four, according to you. And you said he wants you on, he read the synopsis,

and I think he might have even said, why didn't you tell me about it before? And he did, he started texting me that night, and when he announced it, I can't remember if he tweeted or, he did something he started texting me that night and when he announced it, I can't remember if he tweeted or, he did something before I was on, the book immediately sold out just by his, before I was even on.

And the bad thing was it was the first month or two months of COVID and all the manufacturing had stopped. All the, oh yeah, yeah. So it completely, so it was in hardcover and they all sold out immediately, and they couldn't restock, because they couldn't print them. And then my mom was going crazy, she was alive then,

and she's my biggest supporter and fan, and she was 95, and she's saying, I don't understand why Amazon doesn't have copies, and why they can't print them. I go, mom, it's not just that, I said they can print them because some of the places are opening, but it's transportation. They're only delivering medical supplies. She goes, tell them I will rent a U-Haul

and pick them up myself, and she would have. So. Well, isn't it great though that she got to see your success before she passed? Yeah, that was the best thing. And the day it went on sale, she was in suburban Philadelphia. She went to Barnes and Noble and was waiting for them to open the door. Yeah. And then

of course she went in and they didn't have it displayed at eye level. Yeah. And no one's going to you know say no to a 95 year old Italian woman. So then she had a picture taken of her in front of the display with my book on the top. It was on the front page of our town newspaper like a month later. Yeah, yeah. All right, so let's pivot over to Errol Morris. Well, I mean, the book had different development stages of being made into a documentary.

First, it was on Amazon Prime. No, no, it was sold to Amazon as a scripted series. Oh, that was scripted. That was scripted. Oh, I didn't realize that. And they made the same mistake. What's the name of the guy you just mentioned? Errol Morris. That guy. They made the same mistake he made, which was to try to make it a film, like a 90-minute film. So when they bought it to make it a film, I said you can't condense this. And it's not grandiose. What is it, 700 pages? It's like, I think, probably 40 or 60 or something.

It's long and it's dense, you just can't tell the story. And the poor guy who was hired to adapt the book for a script, I mean, after he spent a week with me interviewing me and going through my stuff, he goes, now I know why it took you 20 years to write. There's just so much information. And he goes, and I don't know how to make this. I have to do it.

It's what I'm hired to do, but I don't know how to make it a feature film. It really should be a series. And I go, we'll go back and tell him that. And he goes, they want a film. So he couldn't do it. And they dropped it after, luckily I got a couple of option periods

that you get paid every time that you know, so I got a little money. And then when he dropped it, I agreed to work with Errol Morris again. I had worked with him on the same project when the book was stalled because my first publisher sued me for a return of the advance. And he and I had creative differences back then

and I should have learned my lesson then. But after the scripted thing fell apart, I heard him talking about the footage he'd shot in 2013 at my bungalow in Venice and the soundstage the next day, which he'd cut into a teaser and sold to Netflix for a series before I quit. And I heard- A docu-series.

A docu-series, yeah, like four hours, five hours of me basically, you know, I didn't have the book then and I didn't know if I was ever gonna be able to resell it because it got canceled and I got sued by the main publisher and I thought it might be my only shot at getting this information out and he's an Academy Award-winning director. But then when we were not agreeing on stuff

and I won't go into detail about what, I thought he might be the only representative of my then 16 years of work. I've gotta try to sell this as a book. I don't trust him. So I got the book out, thank God. And then when the scripted thing fell apart, I saw him talking on his son's podcast, saying how the stuff he shot of me, he didn't name

me. He said, I'm not allowed to say who it was. In 2013, it's probably the best footage I've ever shot in my career. And it's sitting in a vault and no one's ever going to see it. And I heard him say that. And I emailed him that day or the next day and I hadn't emailed him since we broke up in 2013 or 14 and I said, Errol, you know, I talk about it all the time. We didn't sign NDAs, you can talk about it when you want. And then I kind of jokingly added, and you know, the Amazon option was not renewed,

so it was available again if you wanna do it, thinking the last thing he's gonna wanna do is work with me again. He was furious when I quit before, and he emailed me back right away and said, can we get on the phone? So he made a 90-minute film that doesn't succeed because you can't tell the story in 90 minutes.

If it was a docu-series and it had been, it could have been eight episodes, it could have been 10 episodes. Because the book represents each sort of like episode of the book, whether it's Jolly West or whether it's Jack Ruby, those are tips of icebergs of information that you've gotten over the years that could have been delved into.

So if you go to Netflix, you can watch the documentary, but just know it's a trailer. It's not comprehensive in any way. But it's also like one of the biggest ones watched. The first two weeks, the first week it was number three in the globe for feature films, the whole world, the whole world three. And then the next week, it went down to eight. And my friends who did

the octopus murders were in the same position. They said, you know, once it's on the Netflix list, it only goes down and go up. Whatever it is the first week or two, that's going to be the best. So a lot of people, I can't remember what the numbers were, I think five or six million the first week saw it, a lot more than I've seen my book. My hope is though that people don't see it and think,

oh, is that all there is? I don't need to read the book. That's what I have to live with and lose sleep over that if people don't know. Luckily there've been a bunch of reviews written and even people talking on podcasts and things about how Errol missed the mark. And they say you have to read the book

to see how much really important stuff that explain what's in the film that's given short shrift is there. Well right now, I know we can't name names, but there is a multi Grammy-winning producer who is named you said about 15 minutes did I say it Rick Roman radio Greg he's about to announce it oh he is yeah all right well this won't be out for a couple weeks so it'll be announced by the time this oh yeah yeah

yeah I think it's kind of he announcing it. He has his own platform called Tech, Tera, Tech, I forget. You should probably find out. I can't pronounce it. And I did his podcast this past summer, and he and I, I met him at Peter Thiel's. Oh. Yeah, yeah.

Is he on that side of the spectrum? I've never asked him. I don't wanna know. All I know is he thinks the spectrum? I've never asked him. I don't want to know. All I know is he thinks he's a very unique thinker. Yeah. As people know if you follow him and great guy. I really like him, but he was really interested in the book and we kept in touch since we met in 2020 and he got a development deal after he did a very successful Hulu series.

I think it's, I've never seen it, but I think it's him and Paul McCartney. Oh yeah. Right. Talking about how Paul McCartney composed the songs he's known for. And he's ever since then wanted to do something with me on the book, but he couldn't cause Errol and Netflix owned the rights. So he finally found out that once the movie came out a month or so ago, he could do a podcast with me. But it's not, I don't know if it's gonna work.

I trust him, but it's like 12 or 20 hours of me just talking about the book with a great interrogator, a woman from London who's really fucking smart and really wonderful and nice. I forget her last name. Her first name is Aisha. And there's a T at the end, but the T is silent. She's very big and he's using this series of her

doing a series of interviews with me. We taped them all the week before last. It was like six days of me talking for five or six hours a day and answering her questions and just engaging with her. No visuals, just audio. Oh really? Yeah, yeah.

And I don't know how long it's gonna be in the end. I think it might be way too much of Tom, you know? I think I'd sure get bored with it for more than an hour. But you know, you gotta trust this guy because he usually is pretty good at what he. Yeah, but Tom, you're also very engaging. I used to tease you when you first started doing interviews. Do you remember what I said about you?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I said you look like you were a hostage giving a statement with a gun to your head yeah you're talking about anything on camera you were so have I loosened up oh my god no you're great now you're right yeah I've been doing so many podcasts yeah yeah yeah but I'm loyal to my old friends I told you I would take you three roofs over the house I told you I would take you. I put three roofs over the houses. I told you I would take you to dinner at Zinc. Oh right, right, right.

Yeah, which is not cheap. It's not that expensive. Well, the owner of the studio, Paul, eats there all the time. Is it expensive, Paul? It's not terrible. It's not terrible. It's the one on Venice and Abbot Kinney?

Yeah, but you've never seen. It's next to Ross. It used to be Venice, Abbot Kinney. Yeah, but you've never seen. It's next to Ross. It used to be Venice, Abbot Kinney. They moved it to next to Ross. I got pushed out of Venice by the gentrification, probably you and other people. Bulldoze, my bungalow complex. Fitz stayed because Fitz owned.

I owned. But you finally got big checks rolling in from the book now. You can move back to Venice. I don't know if I can, I hope so, maybe. Are the checks coming in? I've gotten three, you get them every six months, so it's called earning out on a book. So I've gotten three royalty checks.

That means that you've covered all the publishers' expenses. That happened, yeah, by the time the book was published, most of my, a lot of my advance went back to the first publisher who had sued me successfully for it. So now- Well, they paid you one and a half million dollars and then you didn't give them a book for 20 years.

No, no, they paid me, I'm not supposed to say that, well, I don't care, one and a quarter million dollars for the deal, but you don't get paid the whole thing, and you know this, you've gotten an advance before, you get an advance So they pay you the first third of it. So I got a third of that and then it wasn't 20 years They quit on me after six years. No. Yeah, we signed the deal in 2005 and they pulled the plug

No patience at all. Yeah, and they regret it. Believe me. I know I'm not gonna say how So I had to pay them a third of one and a quarter, which was more than I'd ever had in my entire life. And all of it had gone back into reporting during those six years. And when I got the new deal with Little Brown, the best publisher in the world, most of my advance went back to them.

And I started making money about, well, three times six months ago with the royalty checks. And everyone's been a little better than the one before, I think, and I get another one in about two weeks. I still don't know if I can afford a place in Venice, but if I can talk about doing a scripted thing of the book, but this time a series instead of a feature. So maybe- Plus Rick Rubin's probably gonna pay you a lot of money.

I don't know about that. I mean, like I said, there's no visual. It's just us talking, and they're not using my recordings or anything like that. All right, one word, Tom. Sequel. Yeah, yeah, I'm working on it. That's where the money's gonna be because you're gonna get such a big advance based on how the first one did. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they've Oh, yeah, little brown has said we want this and my agent said you gotta do

I'm like we said you've already got mountains of material that didn't get into the first book It's already written. You just need to but people have to be patient. I need time. Yeah. Well, you know, you're not young anymore I know I'm not gonna be alive 20 more years. I know that 20. I just jinx myself anymore. I know, I'm not gonna be alive 20 more years, I know that. 20. I just jinx myself, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, so the second one is in progress, but I haven't committed to it yet,

because I said unlike the first one, I'm not releasing a book that doesn't have all the loose ends tied up at the end, no more speculation. And I'm very proud of the first one, because I uncovered so much new information that's never been uncovered. And I present a whole new, you know, I proved that the official version isn't true.

That was enough in the end. Well, you also, you know, look, ultimately the smoking gun would have been Charles Manson with Jolly West at the, at the Hayberry Free Clinic. And that's established. With electros in his brain. But it's just, I mean, look, you don't have a photograph, but you've got timelines of both of them there

for the same five years of time. Well, not five years, but yeah. Long time. Yeah, yeah. Long time, as the Chinese say. And there's other stuff that, then we're gonna be racist. I thought we were gonna get to the whole thing

without you being racist. Ding dong. Jesus. Yeah, so I am finally making some money, thank God. All right, it's time for Fastballs with Fitz. You listened to the podcast, you know how it works, right? I thought you listened to this podcast. I did, but not for a long time, is this new?

What does that mean, not for a long time? When did you dismount? You used to listen every week. I've been busy with the book. Jesus, now he looks hurt. I don't listen to any podcast. Sometimes I do the podcast and I give you little shout outs, little messages,

because I picture you at your desk with your little ear pods in. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, your fucking fans are very kind and let me know. All right, good. Yeah, yeah, you got a lot of fans, I know that, that's why I'm here for no money. All right, let me tell you something.

The bar bill's not gonna be steep at Zinc. You get a two drink maximum. Famous last words. So what are fastballs, just questions? Just quick questions. Okay. Who is your best female friendship? You can't do that! What if they're listening?

Tom is famous for having a harem of women that all wanted to marry him before he came out. And they broke, literally destroyed lives. There were women that really felt like you were their soulmate and they kept waiting

for you to make a move for years. You know, that's not unusual in the closeted gay world because everything you want to those women, we're compassionate, we listen to them, we don't treat them as sex objects, but if you don't tell them you're gay, they end up, you know, you become their dream man. And then you finally have to tell them.

And there's a couple great stories about that, but I'm not gonna get all my women friends to hate me for talking about them publicly. Yeah, let's go to the next question. That's too dangerous. You're not gonna answer. No way. Because I know a lot of them do listen to you.

Okay. There are two types of people in the world. Go. Oh shit. Liars and truth tellers. You said it's a quick answer, that's all, you know. Who do you want to give your eulogy? Are these the same questions you ask every guest?

I got a basket of them I pull from. Can I say who I want to perform at my funeral? Sure. Patti Smith. Yeah. And I want her to do Southern Cross for them bringing the casket in and Elegy when I'm coming out.

And then I have a couple other songs written, but that's in my... We saw her at the Bowery Ballroom in New York years ago. Me and you? Yeah. Oh, cool, yeah. Her mom was sitting in the balcony. Oh yeah, she would shout out to her up in the balcony. Wow, that's a long time ago. Me and you? Yeah. Oh cool, yeah. Her mom was sitting in the balcony. Oh yeah, she would shout out to her up in the balcony. Wow, that's a long time ago.

Yeah. What have you turned down recently? Cocaine. I don't believe that for a second. On my birthday. Really? Oh, right, I think you told me this. I just finished taping with Ruben or his

people and then I went to see some friends and they tried to get me what they said is your birthday and I said I'm exhausted I've been talking for five hours I just wanted to come see you guys and they said you have that birthday blow and I said I'm going home to take a nap so I turned it down but I don't do it anymore, really. Can we say the celebrity that showed up to that party later on? Yeah, yeah. Lana Del Rey? Yeah, it wasn't, it was the same house,

but that was a few nights. Yeah, that party was a few nights before. Oh. Yeah, so she came and you guys, you and your daughter were at the party. And I think your daughter was hoping to meet her. My daughter is obsessed with Lana. She literally bought a turntable

because she wanted to hear Lana on vinyl and she bought all of her album. Wow. Album, I don't know how many she has. And she just listens and when she found out she might be at that party, she raced there, hung out at not a good party for a couple hours. What do you mean not a good party?

It's not a good party. So the party began at two o'clock in the afternoon. It was a birthday. I was there from like four to seven. Then I went to your show. And then I brought a bunch of the folks from the show and you and JoJo back to the party at like what, 10 or 11?

Those guys had been partying since two, so it had dispersed, they were all kind of drunk and tired. There was a guy in a green sweater who was jacked up on something. Oh yeah, that guy was crazy. He kept like holding your face. He was right in your face. And he put his arm around your neck

and talking to your nose, and it was a spittle and no boundaries at all and the worst part is is he was kind of interesting. Yeah. But he reminded me of me back when I drank. Yeah. Yeah. He had that Irish American. Yeah. Like when I told him that we had sung a Pogue song, he literally sang the entire dirty old town. He sang the entire song. You know, he's a well-known painter. Really? Yeah, I found that out when I went back to the house to hang out with my friends on the birthday, and I said, your friend was fucking nuts.

And they said, he's crazy. And they said, it's not cocaine. He's always like that. Oh, he's always like that? He's always like that. And then they said, you know, he's a very well-known painter, and they started showing me his paintings.

He gets commissioned to do, you know, like rich people, paintings for portraits, restaurants. He's got stuff in the Museum of Modern Art in New York. Well, he must not be talking to them when he's doing the portraits. But they would all look pained. So at this party, I mean, Fitz doesn't party. People don't know and you were done your show.

And I have a friend who's very close to Lana Del Rey. I know nothing about her except her name, that she's a famous singer. I wasn't really a fan of the music, but she said to me, Lana's going to be at the party when we go up there. I said, oh, so I said to Fitz, you guys are coming and you're like, now I'm gonna go and do it. No, no, no, first you go, you whisper to me, I'm going to a party and Lana Del Rey, I'm not supposed to tell anybody, but Lana Del Rey's gonna be there, don't tell anybody. And then I talked to, and then JoJo comes running up to me,

Tom's going to a party and Lana Del Rey's gonna be there and then Gibbons comes up and goes, Lana Del Rey's gonna, no, not Gibbons, it's nobody else, Gibbons. And like four different people, I was like, oh, and then Gibbons, because it goes, Lonadale Ray's gonna, no, not Gibbons, it's somebody else, Govins. And like 40 people, I was like, oh, so, all right, so it's out. So JoJo, literally, her jaw was dropped, she was so excited, and.

I honestly thought the only ones that knew were you and JoJo, but now it explains why Govins and Fitz Gibbons, and like 15 of your friends came, because it spread. So we leave, and then who shows up an hour later? No, so they all came to the party in Laurel Canyon and then you must have left around by midnight. I did an Irish goodbye about 20 minutes into that party.

And then I was in the living room and somebody just mentioned Lana Del Rey is in the backyard singing. And I found out later Del Rey is in the backyard singing. And I found out later she was singing in the backyard because you could bypass the house and go to the, she just wanted to see the yard and she said the acoustics here are amazing and just started singing. And we all stayed in the house and then she ended up coming in.

She found out that her husband and I shared a birthday, which was the following Thursday. So she comes up and just corners me and she's very nice and just saying, she wanted to know if I shared the same astrological traits that my signs would. I mean, all this stuff. I get signed up. You're kind of like talking Chinese to me. She's like, when the sun is rising or the moon is full, do you get like angry?

And I'm like, I? And she's like right in your face. I said, I don't know, I don't pay attention. She goes, but you're, you know, and her husband meanwhile is a crocodile hunter. Evidently she married a guy who lives in the bayou and they live there and back and forth. And he's in the corner and he looks like a killer.

I mean, and he's looking at me like she's holding my hand and her face is in my face. I'm like, I'm good, I'm not hitting on her. Relax buddy, don't kill me. But I ended up meeting, she brought me over to meet him and he was great and he was showing me on his phone, he has these like massive crocodiles on the bayou around their house and he puts his

head in these things that look like dinosaurs while they're alive they're alive yeah and he feeds them and he kisses their nose yeah yeah she's gonna be a widow pretty soon Jesus one of them doesn't eat her so then I should say I started listening to her music the next day that's incredible yeah she's really I discovered her on my own somehow and then I didn say I started listening to her music the next day. That's incredible. Yeah, she's really I Discovered her on my own somehow and then I didn't realize Jojo was that into her. She's she's incredible She's very successful. So let me also say I texted Jojo when she was there Yeah, cuz I knew Jojo was gone Like 12 15 maybe and I know I texted Aaron because I didn't have Jojo's number and

12 15 maybe and I know I texted Aaron because I didn't have Jojo's number and Aron had texted me saying Jojo needs your address when she was on her way over so I texted Aaron at like 12 15 and I said tell your daughter to come back Lana's here and then I didn't think of anything and then I left the house at about 330 and as soon as I got in my uber I wasn't driving and got down to the bottom of Kirkwood you know on to Laurel Canyon I got in my Uber, I wasn't driving, and got down toward the bottom of Kirkwood, you know, onto Laurel Canyon, I got service, and my phone just goes ping, so it was pinging your wife at 3.30 in the morning

to send JoJo back. And I realized it, and so I texted Erin, thinking I hope it's not waking her, but I said, don't send her back now. I sent that text, it's just going through three hours later. Yeah, what'd you think of JoJo's performance? Oh, she was fantastic. And I really, I had no idea she could sing.

And I had no idea. I mean, I always know if you guys don't know her, she's the most poised kid you've ever met in your life. I mean, she'll be at a dinner at your house with 10 A-list comedians and me, and she just holds her own, and she can be, she'll have everybody listening to her, not intimidated by anything,

and stage, she looked like she didn't have a fear in the world. Is that amazing? She'd never been up in front of people doing that before. She's just so casual. She's so cool, and she could play guitar and sing, and then I have to say, I was impressed by your harmonica chops. Not bad right? Not bad. Mike Fitzgibbon's is a good teacher I guess. He's the best. All right, last question and then we're

gonna let you go. What is the last time you apologized? I don't think I have any reason to apologize. I was going to say I don't think I apologize to people. No, I would apologize if it were necessary. You've made more scenes at parties. But in a good way. More guffaws. I cannot think of an apology I've had to do. Really?

That's the best answer to this question I've ever had. I'm sorry that I don't have an apology. Really? That's the best answer to this question I've ever had. I'm sorry that I don't have an apology for you. There's one right there. Yeah, I cannot. All right. That's how we'll go out. All right, the book Chaos is available on everywhere. The documentary you can watch, but keep in mind it is not endorsed by the author called Chaos on Netflix and look for the Rick Rubin which will be probably out in six months or so. No no no I think May I think. Really? That fast? Yeah I mean I was told the end of April and then when I found out he's gonna start promoting it, she said, his development partner or whatever, that he wants to do it right now.

So they sent me something to approve last night, a promo he's created for it. And I'm like, it's not even, they haven't even cut it or anything yet, but he's excited I guess, so that's good. And give people your socials. Oh, Instagram and Facebook and Twitter, but I don't know what the handles are.

I think it's Chaos. I know Chaos and Manson might be, I know Chaos is in them. If you just Google it, you'll see Chaos, or you know, whatever, it's not that important. Jesus Christ. You know, get the book. All right, thanks Tom.

Thank you, Fitz, You're the best. The Jeep brand has always stood for American freedom. Now with our freedom of choice pricing program, you can choose your offer. Cash incentives or employee pricing for all. Hurry into your local dealer today for details. Jeep, there's only one. Offer valid on select 2024 and 2025 Jeep brand vehicles for non-FCA employees and retirees. $200 admin fee applies.

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