Fly on the Wall with Dana Carvey and David Spade - Nathan Lane on Death of a Salesman, Mouse Hunt, and Mickey Rooney

Episode Date: July 2, 2026

Nathan Lane joins Dana and David this week to reminisce with Dana about their time with Mickey Rooney, working with Christopher Walken on Mouse Hunt, and his current run as Willy Loman in Death of a Salesman on Broadway. Also, Dana hates plays, Only Murders in the Building, and starring in The Nutcracker 3D with Elle Fanning. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There was this strange thing that he, I think, started to make an assumption that Dana might be gay. Yeah. You were a straight guy and Dana was good. And occasionally, for comedic purposes, a little flamboyant. And so he decided that Dana might be gay. And Dana at one point in frustration said to me, why did you tell him you're gay? And I thought, why should I break, you know, America's sweetheart's heart? And he turned to us and said,

very quietly, this is going to be the biggest show and the history of television. He talks to us? He'll be lucky if they don't cancel this in the middle of filming this pilot. If you hear someone playing angry birds in the audience, that might be me. Yeah, that'd be you. I didn't know. So totally all? Nathan Lane, arguably the greatest,

performer of his generation on Broadway and has done a lot of movies. And it was really fun for me because we had worked together on a really interesting situation comedy first time in like early 80s together with Mickey Rooney. So we reminisce about that. So I won't give anything away, but we both had very identical memories and it's a really good ride. Yeah. For me hearing about You talk about that old show with Mickey Rooney on this show and then hearing him, the only other guy that was a witness to all of it and everything synced up exactly what you said was funny. I thought he was very sharp. I thought he, I don't know, maybe at all, but super loose, told tight, concise, funny stories and was a good laffer, cracked me up. And, you know, we talked about mouse.

I keep calling it Mouse Trap. It's Mouse Hunt. And some of his old movies that we all like. And he was in the bird cage. He was in like a ton of these. Yeah. And he has some great, funny old stories. And so it was just a really good time.

And I think people really laugh along with him. Here's Nathan Lane. Nathan Lane. Oh my God. Hello. Wow. Is that a real much? stash because it looks great. Oh, well, yes, yes, it is. I'm old enough how I can grow a real

mustard. You can. Like the other boys. You weren't that way in 1971 when we did that sitcom. 1971. I don't know. It's so long ago, it doesn't matter. Well, it's been a minute. Hi, fellas. How are you? Nice to see you. Nice to see you. I know. Congratulations on your wildly successful podcast. Thank you, White. Thanks for doing it. That's a relative term, but thank you. There's three million.

I know. Yes, everyone in America has one, but yours is doing very, very well. Thank you. You've checked the metrics. I like it. The metrics are, you know, I always look into those things. Well, I've seen the numbers on death of a salesman, and you guys are rocking. It's quite astounding to all of us.

that death of a fucking salesman is SRO at the Winter Garden Theater. I never would have guessed that. But tragedy is big right now. No, tragedy, sadness is all the rage. I think I heard you say this, but it's so modern. I mean, there's never more despair in the history of the world or feeling bad about yourself because wealth is on and on, right? I mean, it's...

Well, yeah. I mean, I haven't seen it, but many people who come back do say that, that this particular production feels, it feels like they've never seen it before and it feels so fresh. And that's all attributable to Joe Mantello, the director. And they got, and Nathan Lane, you know. Nathan Lane. I'm doing my best.

Yes, it's a great, look, it's a great group of actors. And it's something I wanted to do. for a very long time. And honestly, you know, when they announced this, the reaction was sort of why are they doing that again? And why on earth are they doing it at the Winter Garden, this huge theater where cats played and Mamma Mia. How many does it hold? I think 1600. Oh, shit. That is. And then so when it was suggested, because we were supposed to do it, in the fall. And Scott Rudin,

little Scott Rudin. I think I can get a theater for this spring. Would you be able to do it? And I said, yeah, which theater? And he said, the Winter Garden. And I said, oh, are we doing the musical version? Because that's a really, really big house. And I'm a little nervous about, you know,

filling that theater. I'm not George Clooney. So it's been very much. You know, we went, I went with the director and just stood on the stage and I thought, oh, I, it's not as huge as I remembered. And then it was just about, I think both Joe Mantello and Ruden felt that because of the scale of this production and the set, that it would fit there. And then the thing I didn't realize is the sound design, which was, You know, when they said because of the size of the theater, you'll have to wear microphones. And I said, okay. So if I, that means if I speak very quietly, I can still be heard, thanks to you. And he said, yeah. And I think that is the element that created the intimacy I feared would be lost. And so it feels cinematic in a way. And there's something about taking it out of the, what the temper.

for the design of the show was always this a skeletal house and these platforms. And just taking it all of that away, it kind of turns it into Greek tragedy. And you see it, you see it in a fresh way. And you hear things you maybe didn't. You used to use the old set of My Three Sons. And then I remember that show? I was going to ask you about standing on the shoulders of giants. Like how many roles have you felt intimidated by the previous people and inhabited this character?

Like you had to follow Zero Mostel and the producers. And, you know, what's your, how do you get past that? You know, it's something you're not unaware of. But, you know, ultimately you have to let go of those things. The ghosts that haunt some of the production. Yeah. Zero Mustel as an example. I mean, you know.

You can't do him. You have to do you. You can. Although in the producers, you know, you have to kind of live up to a certain size because he was operatic, even on film. And yet it was also, you believed it. It felt truthful, even though an enormous performance. Yeah.

You know, what you had to pay homage to that, to him and to Gene Wilder. in those roles and things that you can only, you know, you can only scream, I want that money. You can't do much. Nathan, is it unusual if I'm naive to say, an average theater? I always think of you as naive. I'm so naive and I'm adorable, but I'm so innocent. But an average play, is it 100 seats? Is it 400?

Is it? Well, it depends if you're off-Broadway, on Broadway, that kind of stuff. Off-Broadway, they're small houses. They're usually not bigger than 400 or 500. Okay. And is no one miced up usually ever, and this is a rare. Well, you know, it's, you were, I mean, at a, there was a certain point where it started to happen. You know, in the days of Edel Merman, she didn't need a microphone.

Right. He was really fucking loud. But then at a certain point, Although even in her day, there would be, I think, like, floor mics to sort of help. Oh, okay. It was really thought of for musicals. And then I think at a certain point, people didn't know how to project or be able to speak quietly and still be heard in a big house. And so now everybody wears mics.

And Lori Metcalf and I are very old school. So when they said we were going to have to wear mics, we were. We were a little thrown, but, you know, it has turned out to work to our advantage and be able to be that intimate on stage. Yeah, not have to project it. Yeah. And then if you get infiltrated by movie and TV stars that come in and try to do a play, they don't understand anything.

Well, yeah, I don't want to beat up on them. I do. Yeah. You have a history. Yeah, Hollywood Minute. still. No, I don't know. I know.

It's the old. Nathan, very sore sub. Very sore sub. It's still trifling around. I thought you would both move past that. We are. We're such funny.

They hugged it out. Yeah. We were Peter Totter yesterday. Yeah. No, he's great. I saw him at the 50th. I'll see him at the 60th and the 70th of S&L. And the 8.

you were 50th. The one I didn't see was Dana Carvey. That's right. I know. I got the date wrong. Ghosties. Got the day right. I went there the next week and, you just missed it.

Dana, maybe just go stand on 8.8. It was like a really, really good show. So you, I don't know where we want to go here, but I, there's just about being in place. It's fascinating to me. And the sheer volume of them, this is the teen. I didn't get plays till later, and I saw, I know. I did tell me how much you hated theater was. I hate it.

And I think I grabbed you by the scruff of your neck when I said that to you. It was a little violence involved. But we were driving in your car. This is the memory I have. And it was, the theater came up because I've spent a lot of time in it. You said, I don't know, I just hate theater. And I still, I'm sorry to hear me. Did I know you were in theater at that point?

It seems a little rude. Then I remember, then we go back further. I remember running into you now after you had become, you know, a big star on S&L and spending week. Right. At the as good as it eats or all it eats. Yeah. And you were sitting in the corner.

I congratulated you on all of this. And I said I hate theater. And then you look at me and said, are you still doing plays? Oh, I love it. Hollywood Minute. Listen to this guy. I was, you know, running, running scams or something. I've become so much nicer.

You know running scams? Well, it's the irony is that when we would do the show with Mickey Rooney, he was right. Like, he would introduce us after doing 10 minutes on hating senior citizens, we should be called more experienced people. And then he got you right because he introduced you as. a generational talent. And then he'd say, and Dana Garnie, you know, and I'd go out. I got it.

But he was right about that. And the one thing about that experience we had, it feels like a Broadway show. It literally has all the elements. It leans into death of a cell. I mean, sometimes I think it was a fever dream. And you're the only person who experienced some of that stuff that's still with us.

Was it as crazy as I, or as wonderful? What was? Well, it was. I would say, you know, it started as this, it was Saul Turtle Taub and Bernie Waltz. He created the show for Jack Albertson, who in a brilliant career move, died and couldn't do the show. Smart. And they then thought, why not Mickey Rooney, who was having Renaissance?

Sugar, baby. He's on Broadway. Oh, he was. Yeah. And so, you know, he had been in the show business, Wilderness, for many years, doing dinner theater, drinking too much. And then I had this, you know, big, big revival in his career. And so he thought in his spare time, while he was doing eight shows a week of sugar babies,

while during the day, I'll do a situation comedy. Yes. And so we were pulled into that. And, you know, I, I. I think he never, he didn't get how brilliantly funny you were. He was more drawn to me because I seemed more old school to him. And then there was this strange thing that he, I think, started to make an assumption that Dana might be gay. Yeah.

You were a straight guy and Dana was gay. And occasionally, for comedic purposes, a little flamboyant. And so he decided that Dana might be gay. And Dana at one point in frustration said to me, why did you tell him your gay? Why should I break, you know, America's sweetheart's heart? Yeah. By telling you that this is going to go no further than 13 episodes. Yeah.

Do you remember this moment, though, in regards this, that he put his arm around you, he looked at me and he said, quote, I'm just glad we like girls. Direct quote. That's what led to that discussion. Yeah. I was too, you know, it was so strange. It's Three's company.

It's death of a salesman. You remember they did what was a, what they referred to as a kind of chemistry pilot, a 15-minute pilot that we shot. And we were sitting in a green room with him. And, you know, we had rehearsed. And there was not, it was, it was what it was, writing was terrible.

Yeah. And we, you know, I was just glad to be making a little bit of money. And we sat in this room with him. He seemed very calm. We hadn't seen this kind of crazy side of him. Right. And then at one point, he turned to the two of us.

We were supposed to sit each other opposite him. And he turned to us and said, very quietly, this is going to be the biggest show and the history of television. Is he talking to us? What is he? He'll be lucky if they don't cancel this in the middle of filming this. fucking pilot. We didn't say anything.

And he went on from there and said, how to save money and stuff. Oh, yeah. And we're going to, we're going to make so much money from this. And, you know, lunchboxes and T-shirts. And he went on and on. And during our hiatus, we'll do a stage version of the TV show and make even more money.

And it's going to build and build. And it crescendoed with, I'll never forget this. He said, I can Tina Turner made a million dollars last year, but Judy Garland died a pauper. And then there was a knock at the door and a first AD came in and said, we'll be ready for you in a few minutes. And he could all be thanks very much. And nothing had happened.

And he hadn't just on a, you know, Mussolini balcony to the two of us. And he thought now, this is, it's, he did it every day. He had different entry points. You're walking down the hallway in the morning to rehearse or whatever. Judy Garland never owned a car. You know why? Claude Gable only had one testicle. Did you know that?

No, Mickey, I didn't. He just put his hands and feet in Gromond's Chinese. It'll show you. How long has Robert Redford been in the business? I've been in the business 62 years. It was like three months short of his actual age. You know, it was a severe case of, arrested development.

You know, he went through, you know, there was that period of 1939 to 1941. He was, he was the biggest star in Hollywood. And do you remember how he announced that? Do you know the whole drill of how he announced he was the biggest star in the world with the little effects and things? Go ahead. Bang, Zoom. Yeah.

I was the number one star in the world. Hear me? Bang. girl. So it wasn't a fever dream. He did that. He did pull out a big water cash and say, think I can afford lunch.

Oh, my God, I've told people this story. I'm so glad to get confirmation. There's one I hesitate to tell because it's But I think I know what it is. Go ahead. The one I do remember is he had a stand in, this fellow had been with him a long time.

And he, yeah, Nikki was sitting on a couch and said, pull my legs. Pull my legs. He was having some back pain. And even though he just extended and not a physical therapist, he said, okay, he put him on his legs. And then his, Mickey's assistant was walking by. And he looked at him and said, forget it, make you're never going to be tall. Yes.

And then there was this day, let's see if I could do it, clean this up. This one day, we were sitting on the set. And I was sitting on the couch, and he was walking around and he saw on a table. It was a TV guide. And on the cover was the lovely Barbara Mandrell, who was very popular, the Mandrell sisters. And she had become very successful on her own. And she was on the cover of TV guys. You know, a very attractive.

Yeah. And Mickey looked at this cover, and he picked it up. And it was just the two of us. And he showed it to me. And he said, look, it's Barbara Mandrell. He said, yes, yes, it is. He said, I love Barbara Mandrell. And then he started getting very like a false ex voice.

I love Barbara Mandrell. Oh, God, I love Barbara. God, I'd like to fuck Barbara Mantrell. My God, I want to fuck Barbara Mandrell. I want to fuck Barbara. He went on and on. Incantation that might make Barbara Mandrell appear for him. And then,

finally it culminated it I want a fucker I want a fucker he said it very loudly up the brown he said stick it in her brown I think really well what about this he wanted it in her brown and he said you know what I mean and I said unfortunately Mickey I do never heard anal sex refer to in such a childlike and primitive way, and I hope never to hear it again. And, of course, our apologies to Bob Remedro. Sorry, if she's hearing. They're all listeners. My parents called me that night and said, how's Mickey Rooney?

I didn't know what to say. He still had a very healthy libido. There you go. I think he cleaned it up for you because you guys were younger, so he didn't want to ask. Well, you know, he was also a born-again Christian, not to make anything wrong. with that. But I remember him telling us about how that he became a born-again Christian because an angel had appeared to him. He was in a restaurant and he appeared to him. He was a waiter, but he had long, blonde hair, and he told him that he hoped he would find the Lord and and work

with him. And I guess told him the specials. But. very much a believer after that experience. Remember all of his ideas like Mickey Rooney's, whatever, burgers? Every day he had a big idea and go off. He would, John Gware, here's two things. I don't know if you're aware of. Norman Lear in an interview said that he had offered Mickey Rooney the role of Archie Bunker.

And he turned it down, but he did do one of the boys. And then John Gware, the playwright John Gware told me, when he wrote House of Blue Leaves, they had offered it to Mickey Rooney, and he met with him in a hotel room. And when John said, I came in the hotel room, and he started doing like the opening monologue from the play. And he thought, wow, I guess he's going to do it. He loves it so much. He's already learned something. And so he then finished, and he said, wow, Mickey, that's incredible that you know all that. And he said, I love your play, but I can't do it. I'm about to start a, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, a chain restaurant called Mickey Rooney's corned beef and brew.

And get this. We'll get to hire little people to be the waiters, but they'll be dressed as leprechauns. And when they claim the bill, it'll be in a little pot of gold. Hear me? That plays tour or laura, Laura. Anyway, yeah, he always had those businesses in mind. One of the craziest ones that I don't remember the exact wording,

but I'm going to do a comedy, see. But everyone's name is going to be a swear word. So we're all sitting around. What? Yeah. Hello, Mr. Fuck. How are you, Mrs.

Shit? No, every character's name. You hear me? Bang, swear word. You remember that, right? Phyllis, no, I heard it was, he wanted it. One was to be called filth and dirt. And it was Donald Dirk would marry

Filth and Dirt. Why should I marry you? You've been filled for years. I don't know if that was 100 episodes. Are we all headed for a lawsuit now? No, it's all. No, not at all. There is one very odd thing that I never really figured out.

So we filmed the eight episodes or where I guess we weren't canceled. We did 13 ago. Oh, okay. So it hadn't been canceled yet. And they asked you from New York, I was in L.A. to go to Whitefish, Montana. That's right. To promote the show. And we ended up on a float five degrees with horses.

And it said one of the boys, that show had not even aired and we're waving. That's right. What? What? What? Crazy. How did that promote the show first of all? I don't know.

Maybe there was an affiliate there. They were really counting on. I have no idea. But I do remember, yes, we went to Whitefish Montana. What network was this, Jay, Dan? FECC. Was it Tardikoff back then? That's a good question.

I don't think it could have been. He's too smart for this. We were just with some of the local people. One thing I remember, we're just at some little, I guess, a coutail here. We're welcoming us. And this guy, this guy has a fake boob in his hand, like a plastic boob. And he was going around to the women and they were screaming and scaring. Did I remember that one correctly?

I don't think that happened. You had one factory too many. Yeah, I didn't know. A fake story. I think suddenly that story sounds crazy compared to all the other ones. They're like, that could never happen. Fake boom and waves it around after Mickey. I'd say it was Whitefish Montana.

There weren't a lot of women there. They just had. Well, they tried to break me on the snowmobile. Remember they said to you and I, who wants to take a ride on the snowmobile? And the lake was frozen over. And I think you smartly said, I don't think so. And then the guy tried to break me. He went off trails.

It was just like he wanted me to kind of say, no, I want to get off. It was the weird. And then he went across the lake to you guys. He hit, he was over 70 miles an hour. Wow. Yeah. It was kind of a macho test of something. Yes.

You were on. Nathan was on the beach with a Mai Tai. Dana, that's the kind of thing where you say no And then you scared your agent's going to hear I heard you were difficult during the promo You're like, no, because I didn't want to get on a snow wheel And go drown in the lake. Yeah, it was really cool.

One of the things that was very cool Is you take me to piano bars where you would eventually sing And I was from the suburbs. I didn't know piano bars in New York And we'd see all these incredible singers And then you would go up and steal the show Me? Not a little old me.

Whoops. I do remember you and I'm coming to seeing you do stand up. And then you were always, you would joke about the fact that you did this bit, but it always killed, which was old-time stars, movie stars having sex. Yes. And orgasming. Right. You knew Jimmy Stewart having an orgasm. Well, then I did a movie after this with Bert.

Lancaster and Kirk Douglas. And then I learned to do them by hanging out with them. And then I would make them into lovers. Yeah. Of course. What is it called tough guys? Yeah, it was called tough guys. Tough guys.

There's a cult film. I know. There's a, but what, you know, everything is surreal about that one too, just hanging out with Bert Lancaster and Kirk Douglas. Right. I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah.

What's the weirdest thing if you think your blink, besides one of the boys, one of your weirdest gigs are a thing you got into in your career you went, this ain't, I don't know if this is going to happen. I was offered this film called the Nutcracker in 3D, the untold story. Oh. Being directed by this Russian director, Andre Kancholowski, who had long wanted to do the Nutcracker. record on film. And I think he had done a film called, was it runaway train that had been stressful?

Anyway. Anyway, I read it, and it was the Nutcracker story, and there's a, in the ballet, there's a character called Drosselmeyer. In this version, the character, he's the character who brings the nutcracker and the dollhouse that sets up the whole thing. In this case, it was, the character was, Albert Einstein. So he wanted me to play Albert Einstein.

And there were musical numbers set to Chikovsky themes with lyrics by Tim Rice. Okay. I had done the Lion King. Anyway, I said no. And I kept turning it down. And then it was four weeks in Budapest. And then finally, it was so much money. I said, well, I guess I'm going to do it.

Got to do it. And that is a lot of money. And it was with El Fanning was just a child actor then. And even then you can tell, this is a gifted child. She's like Merrill Streep. She's so much better than I am. And much more professional. And Richard E. Grant was in it.

John Turro. And it was a strange version of the Nutcracker, or instead of mice, they were rats, okay? And Han Duturo played the rat king, and he had these prosthetics, this sort of rat face, and he had an opening, he had a musical number in which he, you know, sang about what an evil guy he was. And at the end of it, he had an electric harpoon

and he had the CGI water tank with a shark in it. And he harpooned the shark, an electrification, you know, an electrocuted the chart at the finale number. That's kind of the world I was in. I was Albert Einstein and I had a song called Everything's Relative. Okay. Did you do a German accent? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, sure. I did that, yeah. Anyway, it was, you know, it was just the craziest thing. I've ever been involved with. When does that come out? Well, you know, they didn't release it for like two years. And I thought, great. I got it.

Got the money? One Christmas, they said we're opening it. I think it got like zero on Rottenamia. They have negative numbers on Rotten, Jamaica. Anyway, for some reason, it was like, this is Nathan Lane's film. And I was like a They always They always do that

A film by Nathan Lane You know, this is Don't blame me for this Nathan Lane You know, it was You thought How did he get the financing? You know, there was like a lot of Russian money

People in, People in, you know, black sedans would arrive At midnight With, you know, bang There are those Money

Yeah, Yeah. That's a good story. story. I like that one. He used to talk to you during the take. He would say, he would say, you know, I had a scene with a little nutcracker and I, you know, I had to go over and get it and give it to the journey. He would say, now go over to the piano, get the nutcracker.

Now open. I would say, you know, I can hear you. And if I can hear you talking, the sound guy can hear it. And eventually, they'll hear this in multiplexes. maybe you should talk to me during the tank. I love it. What did he say? He was giving you notes.

We'll cut all that out. Yeah. Yeah, caught that out. One thing just real quick, I want to put in what's just I find very entertaining is you in the Gilded Age. I just love the, I love the character. Oh, yeah. What's his name?

I don't know. It's just a southern guy, you know. He was a real guy. No, I can't think of his name. I'm old now. Let's call him Bill. Let's call him Bill. He was a real guy.

He was sort of Mrs. Astor's major goal and the gatekeeper to high society. And they literally made fun of his accent in the papers when he wrote this book, which they sort of be covered in the show where he was ostracized for writing his book. society as I have found it. And it was all about him traveling through Europe and learning, you know, about cuisine and wines. And, you know, especially European etiquette and throwing parties. And he cared all about that stuff and brought that to New York society. And yeah, it was, he was a strange little guy who, you know, yeah, it was. a fun role.

It seems just fun to do that. It's coming back, right, that show? Yes, yes. It was renewed for a fourth season, yes. I did that, asked me to do that kind of voice on an animated show with Tina Faye, and I just kind of took it from Daniel Craig and knives why

eyes out. Well, you know, it was a little more cartoony, literally. Yeah, yeah, he leads into it. Yeah. Nathan was the mouse hunt. with was walking in that? Yes, he was.

I fought to get him in it. They didn't want to, because he was too expensive. And I said, oh, but it was Gorb Vrabinski's first film. And I said, you know, you've got to get Christopher Walken to play exterminator. I said, if I opened the door and Christopher Walker, walking is standing there, that's a huge laugh. That's a laugh. And I said, give him some of what you're going to give me, pay him out of that. don't care. Just ask Christopher Walken. And they finally worked it out. I mean, he only had to work

for like a week or something. And they paid him whatever his fee was. And he was hilarious and brilliant. I thought Dana, he worked with me on something after that. We covered his fee. And there's some actors that you call to do something and they go, they don't even need to read it. They're like, here's the days. Tell me the days. You smash it into. And then here's the fee. So anyway, we all love walking. He's a superstar.

But in one, I've told Dana this, but I don't really do a good walking. No, it's funny. And it's a good one of the breaks. We're in a house, but we're coming out of the house. And it's nights. It's dark in the house while we're all standing there. And I don't know him while. We've worked a few days.

And we're waiting for action. They're like, camera problem hold. So we're just in the dark. And then he goes, David, do you ever work with an act? dog. And I go, an actor dog? Well, there's one in this, actually. Yeah.

And I'm trying to think, like, it's a normal conversation. I go, yeah. And he goes, they're good. They know, they know things, you know. And I go, yeah. And then it's paused. And he goes, hey, you ever work with an act to cat? And I go, I don't, I don't think so.

I don't do that many movies. But yeah. And he goes, they're not good. They don't, they don't do anything, you know, like they, the trainer yells at them. and they don't do anything, but if they yell hard, they'll jump, but any cat does that. And I go, yeah, that's a good point, you know. And then I don't know if it's over yet.

And then he goes, David, you ever work with an act of mouse? That's why I wouldn't know about mouse trap because I go, I don't even know what he's talking about. I go, oh, wait, mouse trap or, yeah, mouse not. And he goes, they're smart. I go, oh, they are. And he goes, you tell it to go up. take a beat and then keep running and they do it. They know. And I go, well, I think they're

animated, but okay. What was he like on your show? He was great. He was just, it's great. Chris is so sweet. And he's just, you know, he's in his own world. And he, but he plays it so, you know, because he's so serious, it's, it's just wildly funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he, No, he was, I do remember the mice. Some of those mice were literally read and trained just for that film. I love it. I love that it's true. There was a mouse that was good at running or jumping.

It's unbelievable. Give me your fastest mouse for this. Yeah. And so when we had to be chasing, if it wasn't CGI, and it was a kind of primitive form of CGI back then. And it was also like a huge animatronic mouse that I think Stan Winston built that for like close ups and things. But but they would have a guy. The trainer would be there with a with a hair dryer. And so when it was ready to go, you can imagine being a mouse and this caption behind you blowing hot air at you, of course, you would run.

Yeah, get the fuck on. They did. They would run. But that's smart. They would run. The mice were very sweet. Was it really hard? Like, was Matthew Broder?

Who was in that way? A wonderful British comedian named Lee Evans. Oh, okay. He might, you might remember he was in a film. His first film in America was called Funny Bones. This movie he did with Jerry Lewis. He's, he's extraordinary in it. I know the name.

And I, so we, that's how we became friends. was doing that film together. And then later, I worked with him and when we opened the producers in London and he played Matthew's role. He played Leo. And he's just brilliant, brilliant. He sells out Wembley Stadium when he was doing it.

No, no, we all do. We all do. But I've never been over there. But it's big. If you're on mouse hunt and you're seeing all these. I'm doing the salesman there next season. I thought you're going to get here. Get it at the World Cup.

It's Shea State. Yeah. I like. So if there's real mice on mouse on, there's probably a couple handful of pros. Does it take extra long or did you get into that movie and you go, I don't know what this is going to be like or because it turned out to be a pretty big hit, I think.

It was the, it was right after I had done the bird cage. Oh, okay. And I thought perhaps, you know, because of the success. of that. It might lead to other films. And I was offered to, one was, Mr. Magoo. And I met with the director and I said, so, and it was a great deal of money. And I said, Mr. Magoo. So I said, am I in prosthetics or the bald head? And I'm, and I can't see. And he said, no, we're not doing any of that. This is a whole new Magoo. And I was like,

Really, that's really all it is. He's a little old man who can't sleep. I can remember Jim Backus did, you know, that whole thing. Walking into walls or talking to Hapracks, creating havoc behind a little bit of a wispy premise anyway on the cartoon. We're not going to do any of that. Well, then it's not Mr. Bukhu.

It's something else, a boy. Yeah, it could be anything. So, and the other film I was offered was, was mouse hunt. And they said the guy who's directing it, he directed the Budweiser Frogs commercials. Yeah. And I said, well, okay.

So not seen. Orson Wells. Was it Joe Dante or someone of those commercial guys? No, it was Gore Vropinski. Oh, I'm sorry. You said that. It was his first big film. It was one of the earliest films for DreamWorks.

And I met with him. And he was, you know, he was really smart and a lovely guy. and, you know, he talked about, he would reference Roman Polanski's The Tenant. And I would say, yeah, that's a good movie. But, you know, we're doing a film where we're chasing a mouse for two hours. The Tom and Jerry cartoon with Laurel and Hardy. Yeah. As Tom.

It walks so Ratatou he could run. But it was a very dark. That's what people say. It was a very dark comedy if we made. It was like Cohen Brothers film for children. So it was, but I had a great time doing it. You know, and it was sort of the beginning of his film directing. Hey, y'all's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair.

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So only murders in the building. Didn't you get an award for that? I did. I did after seven. This is all your hardware. All your hardware. Oh, Jesus. Someone flipped you down.

Oh, I actually studied it and wrote it down. Oh, my. Yeah, it's like a Star Trek when they would announce, William Shatner is on trial and they say this award, this award, that you're like that. Three Tony Awards, seven, drum. Desk Awards, a Lawrence Olivier Award, three Emmy. Okay, we get it.

Screen actors. Anyway, I, yes, I had been nominated like seven times and then finally won for only murders in the building. Yeah. Nice. But it was weird because it was, you know, this was in the comedy category and that were most of these, I was nominated for drama for the good wife once, but this was all for comedy. And then it really wasn't a, I mean, there was a little bit of humor, but my character was a rather dark guy. And so it was surprising, but very, very nice. It was, you know, there to work with Steve and Marty and Selena, it was fabulous.

That would be fun. I have a question about your early career. Sure. Before one of the boys? Yeah, a singing telegram performer. Now, if you. I know a joke about this, but you must know it because you're a singing telegram performer. But early on, I heard a joke where the guy comes to the door and knocks and the guy and the woman says, oh, it's a telegram?

Is it a singing telegram? And he says, no, it's not. It's just a telegram. And she said, oh, could you sing it? I've never had a singing telegram. Oh, my face. You know this? And he goes, he goes, oh, you're saying.

Sister Rose is dead. She died in bed. She was really great, but she was 88. Oh, your sister Rose is dead. And she goes, thanks. Yeah. You must have told that every day back then. No.

No, I did not tell that joke. No, it was really a secret singing audition for you. It was, you know, my years as a struggling New York actor, it was one of the many, you know, jobs to survive and and they give you a I remember they gave you like a very cheap sad tuxedo and like a felt top hat which I tried not to wear but you know the thing about singing telegrams is nobody wants them I mean you go to business offices and people are in the middle of work you know doing it you know accounting or whatever it is this guy this sad tachito would show up.

Yada. And, you know, and so you rarely got a tip because they were just embarrassed. And I remember the one time I got a tip was from Sam Waterston was having a birthday party. And he, you could, I went in and I had to sing to Sam Watersden. And he was so kind, then looked at me and could, knew I was, a struggling actor. And he gave me a very big tip. And so I'll always remember how generous he was.

That's nice. I do want to say one thing because when I said I hate plays, I've fallen in love with the theater as a senior person. Yes, I saw The Ferry Man in London. Yeah. And I want to ask you a question when you do so many shows. But the show I saw seemed extra, extra in the pocket special connected with the audience. but I wasn't sure if this was like an extra just one of those nights were at all.

And the lead actor, after they came out for all their bows, he turned around and he kind of in a happily way just leaped up in the air as he walked off. Do you have a range of emotions when you come off? And sometimes do you leap up in the air? And how often? Not with the same verbs. You know, I mean, I mean, I mean, that's very true, is that it's not every night is magical.

Some nights, it's more technical. And, you know, like in this particular play, death of a salesman, it is extraordinary. It's a kind of silence that you only hear in the theater where people are so riveted to what's going on, the story, the characters, and their dilemmas. But, you know, you can tell if, you know, suddenly if there's phones going on,

or you hear more people talk back to you like it's a television screen or something. But those nights when you do connect, and that's what it is. I mean, it's the last bastion of the human connection in telling a story, is that you're there and where they're doing it for you. And what it does when you do connect, it is very fulfilling and rewarding, and you do feel, oh, something special happened tonight. And people are, you start crying. right at the end of super emotional uh death of a salesman well it is very yeah it's very much big

huge confrontation at the end with with my son played by this a brilliant actor chris abbott and it's very very emotional it's intensely sad just reading about it today where the son says you know we're kind of regular we're mediocre people we're not going to go anywhere i mean there's there's so many themes in this thing that that's heavy wrenching well yeah it's it's still as sadly relevant as it was in 1949. Or more so. The one thing I do think about theater, when I think about AI and digital actors and digital everything,

the last thing they'll get is robots doing live theater. That's true. Then they could do 12 shows a week. They could make 10,000 Nathan Lane robots and go global. Four shows a day. Yeah. They will walk through it. I'm sure.

Someone is thinking about it. Do you go crazy with repetition or is there some you don't bother you and some do? Sometimes it's actually work. Yes. You know, I don't think people were meant to do, like, for example, this play eight times a week. It's, you know, the history of this play, you know, Lee Jacob, who originated this role in 49, he lost his voice after three months and he wanted out. He wanted a two-week vacation. And they said, well, you can't Lee.

We're a big hit. But he left the play as soon as possible. Dustin Hoffman started off in his revival doing eight a week and then reduced it to six. Danny He was a good friend of mine who he was hospitalized for exhaustion when he was doing eight a week and they reduced it to seven. It's just it's a really difficult thing to go through to put your mind and body through. that many times a week. It's all based on, you know, years ago, some producers said, we'll do eight.

We'll do eight a week. On Wednesday and Saturday. Boy, we'll really cash it. And, you know, some plays, this one in particular, it's a really... Emotional for you, too. I mean, you can't just walk through it. You get into it, I'm sure, every night.

No, I get, you get depressed. I mean, we're all the four Lomens in this production, at Lori Metcalf, Chris Abbott, and hours. We gather in my dress. The icing room, beforehand, it's sort of a ritual, and we just talk about what's going on. And all four of us are like, I would pay any amount of money to not have to go through this tonight. It's like going to be sad. Let's go be sad.

Yeah. Well, what's more exhausting when you're, because I thought it was interesting when you guys were doing the producers, you and Matthew, and you had some mega, or you knew our Times or something. And all you guys talked about was this. It wasn't about, it was just about physically trying to survive it. So are you more exhausted with the emotionality of death of a salesman or were yadalada, you know, which are they equal exhaustion? Well, musicals, as I've always said, are a young man's game. But it was we were, here's what I made, my mistake with the producers was that I didn't protect myself. I wasn't, I wasn't safe about my voice.

I was trying to live up to zero must now. So I'm yelling and screaming and carrying on and singing and dancing and doing big comedy. And then after about six or seven months, my voice was shot. And I really had to, you know, deal with that. And so, you know, on something now at this stage of my life, you know, I don't do anything. You know, I just go and I do the show and then I come home and go to sleep. There's no going out. rain.

Yeah. You know, in the old days, you go out with friends for drinks. Sardis. Maybe Sardis. I don't know. Like Gary David quietly say things. I know. That's the whole podcast.

That's all I do. Especially when I know nothing. I'm like, plays. Oh, my God. Look, it's just, it's a rigorous schedule, whether it's a musical or at a very emotional play. We do stand up, it's the same. I mean, doing an hour, hour, and 10, and it's not the same because you're doing a lot more.

Well, and I've had practice doing, I mean, I've done Angels in America, which is two plays. That's seven and a half hours. I've done Ice Man Cummeth, you know, five hours. So this at three is a breeze, and comparatively. Three, that's a chunk. But it does, and it does, there's wear and tear on the psyche. If you're, you know, you have to kind of stay in this mindset. And it's, it's difficult.

It is difficult. I mean, but the other side of this, and nobody wants to hear actors complain about being in a hit. But it's the other side of it is when people come back and literally are weeping or fall into your arms weeping or just saying it's the best version of this I've ever seen. And you see, you can hear them. You hear them, you hear them the silence, and then you hear people weeping out there. And it's, it's, it's, you feel like I've done something meaningful, you know, for folks. And it's cathartic for them. And on, on some level, it's cathartic.

But, you know, I, you do start to look to the closing date and think how many more. Yeah. As much as I love the play and I do love to play. It's a, it is, it is a, it is a, it, and it's a real test. Do you follow, do you like, you're so successful. You're not exactly Willie Lohman, but you must have had periods in your life that you draw on or something, right, to build the character and inhabit it yourself. Well, it's a guy whose whole idea of success and his self-worth is built on the opinion of others, which is a recipe for disaster. Never good.

But it's a lot of people. And certainly as an actor, as a comedian. We all know that, you know, we have that. We deal with that. The opinion of others. And everything for him is about being well liked. And all you have to do is go on Facebook to see how many people are looking for lights. So it's his misguided view of the American dream, which he firmly believes and drills into his two boys.

It's, you know, it's kind of, he's a massive contradictions and insecurities. And yet he's optimistic, even though he's suicidal and depressed, he still thinks he's going to win, which is what drives the play and this character. And I think is what makes him interesting and why people empathize with him, ultimately, even though he's not the finest, as his wife says in the play, he's not the finest character that ever lived, but he's a human being,

and something terrible is happening to him. And so you certainly call upon, well, I, you know, it's those, you know, process, talking about process is, it's just horrifying to me. It's personal. You know, you certainly draw upon things from your own life and to things that are either, emotionally triggering or things you've been through where that are, you know,

whenever you begin, you look at how am I like this man and how am I not like him? And how do I find those things? And again, people don't want to feel sorry for us, but show business is kind of in general, I call it an emotionally violent sport. Extreme emotional, yeah. Yeah. If you're in this shitbox film and then you're just publicly humiliated, most of people don't have to, you know. And so, yeah, it wouldn't be that big of a leap.

But when is it ending? I want to put on my calendar when you get a rest. Yeah. You know, it is like when you have a day off. It's like, oh, this is nice. I don't have to think about getting in that car. and suicide today. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, you look, these are the, these are the, these are the, uh,

actor issues. These are, yeah, we don't need specifics. Just, yeah, we're not going to air this. I'm also incredibly grateful, you know, grateful that this, which took a very, this has been in the works for a very long time and that it finally happened. It's, that it happened is a miracle. And the fact that is so successful is beyond what I ever dreamed of. And so, you know, I feel all of that as well.

But, you know, I'm 70. So there is, there are days when you think, oh, how many more do I have to do? But each one, you can only think the way out of that is I can only think about the show I'm about to do. If you start to think about, we got two tomorrow. You'll need it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. And I assume that when you're in the moment, like in any other thing with Lori or whoever, you might in a moment surprise yourself a little bit with the way you deliver a line.

And then they'll sort of surprise you, just these nuances. I assume also keep it alive some nights. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, with these, these are people all at the top of their game. And so with Lori, it's all, I mean, we've known each other for 40 years. So I, she always, it always, to me, it's like, it seems like she's making it up sometimes. She's just so spontaneous and real. And it's, yes, that does happen.

And the play takes you places you don't expect to go. And you think, wow, where did that come from? There was one day in the last couple of weeks where I was, you know, where you're really in it. You know, and you just, you know, you lose yourself in it. Because it's so powerful and the, you know, the words are just, you know, these, there are scenes in this that I wanted to do my whole life. And so it's, I mean, I saw it when I was 10 years old, there was a CBS special presentation of the play. So, 1966. And it was Lee Jacob and Mildred Donick, the original star is doing it.

And I remember then being affected by it, even at 10, I was. was upset for this salesman. Sure. And then a year later, my father, my own father essentially committed suicide. He drank himself to death. He sort of announced that he was going to do that and then he did. And I always kind of connected it to Willie Lohman to this, you know, this man who kills himself.

And Willie kills himself because he wants to leave something to his son, this $20,000 insurance policy. And it's the one thing he can give him. And it's what allows him to finally go through with suicide. Brutal. The feel-good comedy of the year says the New York Post. That's the thing about this play. And I remember Dennyhee once said to me, you know, it's not a funny play. And I like big shoes.

Death in the title. There is humor in this play. And Miller actually wrote about it and said, important he thought it was because he said people don't think about that because it ends so tragically, but it's very deliberate. There is humor in this play. And when he wrote it, he would laugh at the things that Willie would say, his exaggerations and contradictions. And certainly Laurie has found humor. And I knew she would, it would not be a sentimental performance, but she has found the humor in Linda Lohman.

It helps to keep it moving, keep you alive. Yeah, and it draws people in, you know. Just real quick, you hosted SNL in 97, if you want to touch on that. Oh, I was the one-timer. Yes. One-times club. I don't think you get a jacket for that. You get a sweater vest for.

They should give someone a one-timers club jacket during their monologue. No, I've done three. You've done how many, David? Two. Two, and you've done one, so we're five right here. Yeah. It's, we could get a jacket. You get a sleeve and I get it.

Yeah. No, that was, you know. It is 97. What were you promoting, do you know? What was I promoting? I don't. I'm not. I'm just hosting.

97, I believe, yeah. I usually go on when a movie pops on or something. Yes. I'm not. I don't quite remember. I don't know. Do you remember enjoying it or being scared or just exhilarated? There's, I think as many people have said, it's a singular experience, but I mean, I am used to live theater.

And but it's, it's like nothing I've ever done. And yes, it was. I mean, look, I got to do sketches with Sherry O'Terry and Will Ferrell. Yeah. All great. Great time. You know, it was, it was. You don't get bored with that performance because it's over before you know it.

Yeah. Now I have it. Now I can do it. And it's like, well, it's done. No, I, you know, I loved it. I loved it. Yes. Yes.

And then after at the after party, I do remember sitting with Lorne. And he said, you're, you're good at this. And, oh, I said, thank you. And he said, well, you may, you'll do it again. And then I never did it again. You'll do it again. Mercy, write down to deliver. Do you have, I mean, you've done.

Oh, Warren Michaels just wanted Tony. How about that? I saw that for Schmigadoon. Oh, Smigadoon? We worked very hard. And the thing is. Did you do it on TV? Yes, it was on Apple.

Yeah. That's a Broadway show. Is it a different cast? And then they did it on, they just did it on Broadway. Not with the same cast, though. No, not with the same. Yesly. Oh.

Rip off. Yeah. No, a whole new cast and it's, yeah. It's Shrigadoon by Nabisco. That's musical. Yeah. I thought they were crackers. But there he was.

He said he was funny. When he accepted, he said, I'm not going to attempt in front of YouTube an impression. But he said, it's been a long night. And he said, and sometimes all you need is. some singing, some dancing, and a few good jokes. Yeah. Yeah. That's what Lauren said?

Yeah. That's good. He's not there to milk it out. He's not going to go too long and play it off like a fool. He's done pretty well, you know, that guy. Yes, he has. Yeah. Yeah, just one last question.

So you've got this. Go ahead. Were you in that documentary about him? I was. Yeah. Dana's in it. Yeah, Dana's in it. You were off to the side.

No, mine was a hard pass. No, I, no, I, I, um, I don't think we did a bunch during the 50th. I didn't do a lot of, yeah. I was, they just had me in a room where I live up on a farm and I did, I talked about, they did a whole documentary on the cowbell sketch with walking. Oh, right. A whole documentary. A lot of light these days.

And then Lorne and Lauren's movie and now it's Shmikadoon and, you know. Right, right. Yeah. So anyway, Nathan Lane's been our guest. Congratulations. I think it's very cool that you've got to do this. Well, me too. I can't thank you enough.

It's a pleasure, and it's because it's been so long since I've seen you. Well, I'm mentally healthier. I knew that you were incapable of becoming, hey, you know, I'm Nathan Lane. You're never going to get like altered. by your success. Uh-huh. And a new guy shows up. Right.

The guy I knew in 81 was not capable of going, hey, you know, guess what? But Mickey Rooney. Don't you seem like exactly the same? I mean, you've grown as a person, but I'd like to think. The horror of you is not. But I can see it's really gone to your head. Yes. Yeah.

It is unsufferable. But I feel like if Mickey Rooney knew he was working with two months. Insufferable. He went to state school. What did I say? say unsufferable? Unsuff. It's not a word.

Homestchooled in Arizona. Worse. Okay. Nathan, by the way, you cracked me up a lot. It's great to talk to you. It's so much fun to have you. And I learned a lot. I learned a lot about the board.

Well, if you're in New York, we're there until August 9. If you hear someone playing angry birds in the audience, that might be me. Yeah, that'd be you. I didn't know. So totally. All right, listen, if you're enjoying the fly on the wall, of course, hopefully you are.

Click follow. We don't want to be desperate, but obviously smash that goddamn button on your favorite podcast app. Smash it. Leave a review, a good one. Leave a five-star rating, nothing else. Whoops. And maybe even share an episode with a friend. If you're watching this episode on YouTube, please subscribe, Dana.

What do you think? I'm going to tell you this right now. Hear me now, believe me later. Fly in the Wall, believe it or not, is presented by Odyssey. And executive produced by Hold For It, Dana Carvey and David Spade, or David Spade and Dana Carvey. We don't write this stuff. Heather Santoro, Greg Holtzman, and Leah Reese Dennis. The show is edited by Evan Cox, with production support from Phil Sweet Tech, talent production and booking by Sophia Lepore.

Thank you.