Fly on the Wall with Dana Carvey and David Spade - RE-RELEASE - Bowen Yang

Episode Date: June 17, 2026

This was a fun one with a modern day SNL legend! To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Okay, we got Bowen Yang. Bowen Yang. One of the more recent S&L greats that does a solid job. I think five Emmy nominations and a win or something like. Wow, wow, wow. That's pretty, that's more than me, I'll tell you that much. He heard me. He ties me.

Whoops. You didn't. Did you get that many? I'm a rip off. I want to recount. I'll tell you how it's done later. Anyway, Bowen Yang, this is a really fun podcast. He's a cool dude.

funny, interesting, and humble. I think he was coming off of Wicked before Wicked 2 came out. Yes. Yeah, we caught him right in that because he's hot as a pistol. I think what happened is he's doing a lot of movies, doing SNL, and I think I read at a certain point, he felt like, well, it can go on without me. And he said, Lauren Caldman said maybe do another half season and then help with the new guys. Yes.

And he said, great, if Lauren asked for something, I'll do it. Mm-hmm. Which is nice. So here he is. He's going to tell you all about everything. Yes. O'Nyang. If there's a movie about me, Dana, I don't want everyone beating me up.

They're like, this is his life. He was always getting beat up. And so my descendants would not like that, I hope. The start of the movie is Chris Farley holding you over his head and throwing you a cross of basketball court. That's the cold opening. That's in between takes. Yeah, that's real.

And what would be the sound that our sweet friend Chris would make? Oh, then he goes, that's good. Yeah. He gets nervous. It's great to have Bowen on

because now we're talking to because when I went on Smartlist, I said, oh, I'm going to make this easy. I know what a guest is like. So you do a podcast. So it's already you get the whole thing as opposed to do.

Can I ask questions? or what do I say? I might not, but I think, I think every show has its own unwritten set of rules or whatever.

And I, like, you just gotta, like, learn how to get in there. You guys are really good at it, though. Thank you.

We like to send 200 episodes over to each guest just to get a feel for it. Yeah, yeah. So they can listen all the way. What about Sarah Sherman? What's wrong with her?

That's my first question. What happened to her? What's wrong with her? Are we all, are we all like, this limerence phase with Sarah. I think the three of us are all equally obsessed with Sarah Sherman. Yeah.

And we're coming at different angles. She's a one-off. And it's so refreshing. I mean, you can't even, I couldn't know. I wouldn't know how to describe her. Yeah. But she's so charming. She has this,

she has like an intergenerational appeal. She has like an inter, whatever gender appeal. But I think like as a gay guy, I'm obsessed with her. And then in you two as straight guys are obsessed with her. Like, she just has this, universal appeal that I need to get to the bottom of. And I would love to have this whole episode be about her. We have to get to the bottom of it because she has she had me at Mullet and then she

was funny and then she's bananas and then uh cute as a button and then she goes on the road and she's so funny because I just see clips and I'm like Sarah what's going on on the road? She goes, I don't know exactly. But it's very funny and she's got a great show. So but really, about her. Let's bring on our second guest today. Sarah Sherman. I would be so thrilled. She throws a party wherever she goes whenever she sees her whenever I've seen her.

And then we're invited and sort of like someone, at least on the surface, who knows how to navigate life a little bit, maybe not take it too seriously. I don't know. You know her so much better than I do at this point because you've seen her under pressure, under stress. Sure. How is she under stress? And how are you under stress?

How bad is it get on that? freaking show. Uh-huh. I think we're okay. She is, you know, her and Dan Bulla bless them both, but they will stay at 30 Rock until like 2.30 in the morning on a Thursday trying to like get every page, right? And I am someone who is going to call it at like 9.30 and be like, it's time to go home. If you, you know, the writer's table is what he's talking about, probably the rewrite day.

They read the sketches on Wednesday. I'm telling our audience it doesn't know anything. 200 episodes, they don't understand it at all. So they, and then Thursday, they pick the sketches. And then the writers would come in maybe with one of the cast members or whoever wrote it together. And the table rewrites. Is that sort of still how it goes?

They go sketch by sketch. Sketch by sketch ends with. I mean, now I'm sure people have told you, like, we usually don't have a cold open until Friday. So the cold open does not get a rewrite table usually. Oh, does a cold open do a re-through? Most of the time you don't get a cold open or re-through until Saturday at Saturday tables. It's pretty wild.

Especially if it's political, you want to wait as long as possible in case somebody, so some crazy crazy thing happens, which is the rhythm we're in now as a culture. You feel like it's high hurtling this and now this and then what's the next? It could be good. Don't know. But I was just curious about how relaxed you seem. I mean, it seems like this is a trajectory on camera, on camera. You know, it's like for our audience, you were first a writer, and then you became a feature player.

And you seem to, then the audience discovers you. And then there's this sort of massive leap that you make forward when they, they, they know you, here comes Bowen, and you've made them happy every time they see you. What phase of that are you in right now? I think you're in the last one, but maybe, but I, did you guys ever, did you guys ever, like, take this time, let's say this time, if you're recording this in, like, late August, like, right before the season starts, you buckle down just a little bit, and you're like, let me, like, get stuff in the tank. And, and, you, and, you, you know, It never gets used, but you're like, let me just like make some, of course.

That's the thing for sure, is that you start thinking of sketch ideas in August or anything you think of. It'll never make it onto the show. You just feel like you want to have ideas, but then the week comes and there's nothing like that week. Right. But to answer your question, I think I'm in the stage now where, and I don't know if this is me tricking myself into anything, but I always want to go into each season as if it was my first year. Does that sound pathetic or something?

No, no, I think that's good to never not kind of worry a little bit is healthy. You know, I got this. But you have to, but like that place will always knock you on your ass. Like, no matter how developed you, you feel like you are, right? Like, and especially like, I'm really curious about what will happen

if the show is still around for when I like return and just say hi to people or something. Just to like visit the halls and like say hello. Like I wonder what that'll feel like because I, that'll be bizarre. Have you ever gone back to your high school? Yeah. On a Sunday afternoon and walked around. That's what it feels like.

Okay. When I went back, I go, everyone's so tiny. These rooms are so tiny because I grew so much when I left. And then I came back to host and I was like, oh my God, I fit in. here. Yeah. I think there's when you're in the summer and you're trying to think of ideas and you're just really doing anything to get a head start. That's that's kind of terrifying. Do you have a writer? I think punky, we just talked to punky and she said, she had a writer or she was assigned a writer or maybe or just one kind of gravitated. Do you have someone they let you bring on

or you just work with everybody? I think I tend to work with everybody. I was working with Sui Green, who I went to college with, and she got hired for... She was, like, the first person in our little, like, coterie of, like, comedians doing sketch at UCB, like, mid-2010s. She kind of got, like, raptured up into that spaceship first, and we were like, oh, my God, like, someone made it. And then she kind of shepherded my, like, little lamb ass for the first season at SNL. And then she ended up working with Maya and Marty a lot. And then she helped Maya with her Kamala. And so I think she'll be back for the fall when Maya is back.

And then I, so, so it was Sudie Green. And then she left. And then there's a writer Celestium who also works with Sarah, but they were going to lead. But I try to sort of like, my goal every season is just to like, see like cat like i don't know just throw a wide blanket on everybody sure you want everybody to write something you want to be available for every idea any exactly yeah and i think um oh this is just something i think you might find flattering or interesting it was for us so we first started this tina fay was like our fourth guest oh i heard this and so we got to discussing s andl and comedy yeah and

then she just said have you seen bowen yang do the titanic icebergs She just said, I'm not saying it's eloquent. She said it's something new. It's an angle that's just different. And I thought that was cool. I hadn't met you at that point. I thought, what an interesting thing to say. But it was, I don't know, how to describe that coming about?

Because that landed hard. Yeah. And I, you know, no one expected it to. But it was this thing that we did at Reithru, and it kind of just happened and people were like, oh, that was cute. But it was this idea that Anna Dresden who used to work there was the headwriter there

first season had where we were just on a hiatus and she was like, maybe in April for the anniversary of the Titanic's thinking, you come on as the iceberg and you just want to promote your album. And I was like, oh, that's funny, but what would that look like? I don't know. So weird, yeah.

What's the attitude, follow, blah, blah. But then April rolled around, so a couple months had passed. And then I was like, hey, were you still thinking about that Titanic idea? I think that's, I still don't quite know what it is. But I think it's, like, I was like, like, it sounds really funny. So let's like, just like put clay on the table and like get to the bottom of it is. And then.

If it sticks with you, it's also a good idea because you're like, I was just kind of thinking. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's like one little secret, right? It's like if the idea is still, if it's still sticky in a couple months, then it's probably worthwhile in some way. Like anything in life, you think of something later, you think of it again, and you're like, that was kind of funny.

Even though you don't haven't cracked the code yet, you're like, there's definitely something there. I think that you had to see it. Like once the thing was on your head and the whole thing. And then there's no wink or tiny nod to that. You just are the iceberg. and we the question how did you get there? Why aren't you freezing?

Why are you on Saturday Light? I mean, I would say if you can get to five questions for a sketch, then you're in this magic area. Wow. That has a lot of questions, yeah. Wait, have you guys talked about this, this five questions thing? I think so. Dana's been holding it.

I love it. Yeah, Dana, what the heck? I love that. How did he get there? What is it? Iceberg. Why is it? Yeah.

What is he on, why is it on update? Is it on another sketch? Does the cast? No, the iceberg's there. Right. It's something that hit me at one point. I don't know if it's that profound, but it is fun to think of sketches that really crush.

Does it have five questions? Wait, I'm writing this down. I'm writing this down analog. I'm not even typing it everybody. I'm picking up a pencil and I'm writing five questions. That's hip. No, and then, so we did it a table read. It was fine.

It was kind of in the mix throughout the week. And then I forget what it was. Like Pete might have. Like, there might have been questions about, like, whether or not Pete was going to come back that week because he was kind of, like, dipping in and out because, you know, that was his want. And so it was Pete. It was Pete. And I think there was just a question mark on what the lineup was going to be for the show. And then Friday night at midnight, we get the call from one of the producers.

We get the text from one of the producers after the meeting with Lauren on Friday night. They were like, okay, I think Bowen's update is a go. And then at that point, Anna and I were like. texting each other pictures of like kids and Halloween costumes from 1998 like dressed up as the Titanic and dressed up as the iceberg. We're like maybe it's this.

Maybe it should be like a dinner jacket. No, maybe it should be like a white leather jacket instead. And then we like lean it on dinner jacket and should have these like jewels on them. And so it all came together over the course of, I don't know, less than 24 hours.

When can you tell wardrobe? When's the latest you can tell? I think the worst I've done is day of but not before like meal break meal break. So like like four or five p.m. but it's like you know

the ask has to be reasonable. It can't be like can you get like a whole like right. I want to come in on a horse. Do you have an ice cream costume on you that's actually super funny, not just a regular one? Exactly. But it was yeah, Friday night at midnight and then, God, we went in, like, typical update length, page length right now is like seven pages to clock in like three and a half minutes. We wrote 11 pages.

And the entire, we were just, it was so indulgent and like masturbatory. We were just like, this is never going to make it on TV. This is so crazy. Like, what? We were like, we were just laughing at each other in this office next to script on nine, like right across from Lauren's office. And we were like, it felt delirious. It felt very fever-dreaming. We were like, this is never going to go.

Like if it works from minute one, that's what you want. We were talking about this about one joke. They get it. You push out. They start laughing because you look funny. Then they get the idea and then they're on board. But if they're not, that's a long 11 pages. I think also, I remember in it, we was defensive.

The character didn't want to really talk about the Titanic. was kind of angry. How do you think I felt and all that? And then wants to promote his electro pop band. So those things were kind of inspired, you know, because it could have gone different angles there. Well, that was all pulled from when Paris Hilton went on Letterman right after she got arrested.

And all letterman wanted to ask her about was her getting arrested. And all she wanted to talk about was her perfume line. And so we were just like, great. That's a good analogy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There you go. That's it.

Inspeb. That was it. That was it. Like, we just like, like, Anna was like, and I was like, what, like, what can me? What does this scan on? What does this map onto? And I was like, I think, like, my favorite Letterman interview ever is him talking to Paris Hilton. And so, like, let's like just not drag and drop, but it was just, it was a nice one.

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how we got here. With more than 200 episodes, you can binge your way, decade by decade, defining event to defining event from the founding into the 20th century. Join me, Professor Greg Jackson, for History That Doesn't Suck, an Odyssey podcast, available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I have a question for both of you. Because I came in as a full cast member. You guys came in in and feature writers. And is there an advantage? and or a disadvantage because you're seeing the show, you're seeing the cast members do their thing. You're kind of being acclimated to the idea of it. And then I do want to know how it came about.

It was always pretty obvious that your goal was to be a cast member and it was almost like a nod. You do one year. You write. You find your lane. And then you play like, oh, fucking ice bird on up to air. Really? Lord. Hey, Svengali. David. I'll let Bowen answer this one. What are you mean? Oh. Okay. But I would love to hear David's answer. I'll do it.

My answer is very, well, it's 22 minutes long. Here it is. I was born in Arizona. Ooh, back too far. Oh, boy, here we go again. I'm just going to take a little break. Sandler, when I tell him a story, he goes back too far, speed it up. So anyway, I basically was a writer-performer with Schneider.

But they didn't, they said don't write yourself in. They said for sure don't. We got so many people. I didn't want to be a writer. I didn't know how to be a writer. So write yourself in maybe a line or two here when they have punky kids. And then they would, if you had too much, they would pull you out. They'd say, that's five lines.

Give that to Mike Myers. And I'm like, oh, fuck. So you do that. It's just so hard to write for myself already. And then write for someone else and writing a sketch. So it did take a long time to learn that stuff. And then we came back for the next year and Schneider put himself in copy machine. And I was flabbergast.

I'm like, you're breaking all the rules. And then it got on. And I was like, wait, no one said it was fair. And I was like, oh, it's not fair. You took it out of my mouth. I was about to say that. So it's okay because I think that technicality I learned was it was something that they said, if you do it the best, you can write it for yourself.

But if it's just a funny idea for a sketch, give it away. So Rob did that well, yeah. Well, that's funny, though, because I feel like it, you're lucky if you have someone like Rob there to show you that, like, you can just break the rules. And if you do it well enough, no one's going to say anything. Or no one's going to take issue with it. Right.

You know? That's what happened. I was like, what are you doing, dude? But he was very like, fuck that shit. He would always write himself in and make them take him. Adam wrote himself in so fast. And I was like, this is the way we do it here because I was brainwashed. But when it worked, I'm like, well, what am I doing?

But they had hookier stuff. So it was harder for me. But I could see it. Like Adam's stuff was so little nutty, a little left to center. And it was really him. And I'm like, shit, I am not really like that. I'm more dry jokes and whatever the fuck I do. So it took longer to get a foothold.

But it was, they kind of skipped some of the rules. And it worked out. Yeah. And I have to, true confessions, remember you came to my office that one night, you were a feature writer. And I said, first thing you'd never do is write yourself into a sketch. And I regret that. Well, it's true, though. My point is that my other point is that we all had seen you, we knew you were funny. Me and Dennis and Kevin, we knew you and Schneider were standups. We'd seen you kill at Club. So when I saw Schneider out there doing the copy machine, yeah, that's something Rob would do. Yeah. Bowen?

Yeah, I screen tested four times by the time Lorne was like, they saw you at UCB. Oh, really? Yeah. Is that where they saw you

in New York or where? In New York, I sent in a tape on a lark. I was like, they're never going to hire like an effeminate Asian guy. Like, why would they? There's no need for that. Like, let me think the way Lauren Michaels thinks. They have so many.

they have so many they've got Leo there they've got Rob I was just like this is just never going to happen so I'm just going to have fun with that and then tape was kind of

just cleared each stage stage gate so I did like the UCB showcase and then did screen test call back one year and then they and Lauren just decided to throw another round of screen tests in March of the following season and then holding deal until August

And then that was the fourth time. Holding deal. So, yeah. That was like, it was the first time I was on one. Like, it felt so special. Holding deal.

For people at home, that means what? You get paid to do nothing until they decide. A little bit of money and you're might be on television. Wet the beak. Yep. Wet the beak. It was like,

it was peanuts. And like, but at the time, it just, but it's from SNL. It's a big deal. Right. Right.

Right. So, it's $78 a month. But you, if you stretch it, it'll last. And the movie pass. It's from my personal checkbook.

And did you have a breakthrough one live with everyone? Did you have to do that thing? Or was you just gradually all of a sudden they called you and said, you're a writer? No, it was. So after the tape, it was the live thing at UCB. So they just did like a live showcase with a bunch of people. And then from then on it was just screen tests.

And then I remember my first meeting with Lauren, and I fucked it up because the first thing I said was, I also grew up in Canada and I can speak French. Like that was, and he saw through that immediately

and it was like, who is this? Yeah, totally. Uh-huh. How did you dig yourself out of that hole? I did it. I stayed in the hole. I stayed in the hole

and then thought it was done. Then the second meeting, he was in L.A. It's always so crazy. It's never a, it's never normal. situation. It's never normal. No, he was at the Beverly Hills Hotel because he was doing the Emmys that year because

Che and Caj and Collin were hosting and so. And room 31, it's a sweet. I always get that. That's his hotel. He's a creature. Of course. I want to go for a walk? Uh-huh.

He loves his walk in Beverly Hills. We're revealing secrets. I'm like, Jesus. I thought we were lost. I go, Lauren, where's the Beverly Hills Hotel? we walked and walked. I'm like, I thought this is a cute little jaunt, but it was honestly,

he goes, it's exactly five miles. I'm like, no, this is, I have to prep a lunch. He was getting his 10,000 steps. I had a long hike with him with a bunch of people on Long Island. And eventually at one point, I believe he did say, oh, trees are violent. Think about it, Dana. Root systems and there's this aggression.

It's a bio-evolutionary thing. Look into it, please. And I need another hit. fucking character. No. I think, I think Dana's got, Dana's got the most

like timbre perfect Warren impression I think. It's so good. I love Bill haters. I love different incarnations of them. Bill's very laid back and sort of right here. But,

so, so you get hired. I was curious, just for a second, at UCB, when they would do showcase, you, were you kind of, did you knew you had something?

Were you killing it? eventually on stage at UCB, pre-S&L. We were doing like- I'm assuming you were doing, you know. Yeah, we were doing like monthly shows. We had like a monthly sketch show there. Like they called them Spanx and then it turned it into like a monthly show. And so it was like a half hour, um, little sketch thing and, uh, we were doing stuff at the pit.

And I was doing like, I went to, I went to school in the city and met a lot of like cohort people there. And it was nice. And like I left out. Did you audition? with anyone that made it all the way? Did I audition with anyone that made it all the way? I, so my, the first year I audition was the same year as Heidi and Chris Redd and Luke Noel. So they, so they were people. And then Andrew Dismuks was also that year.

And, um, he got hired as a writer first as well. Then the next year, I came on to write for just one season. And then when Lauren called me to like give me, give me cast, he was like, this was the plan all along. I had to let you, I had to let you cook. And if I threw you out there without a paddle, it would have been irresponsible because there's going to be a lot of eyes on you. And I was like, okay, great. I mean, I, it was a really stressful year because I,

I like David was like, I don't identify as a writer. I don't know how to write for myself or other people, let alone. But then I'm, but I'm glad I had that time, though, that gestation. Because, like, I would have, like, I saw how the sausage got me, you know? And, like, it kind of demystified it. I literally only figured out how sausage was made, but not how to write a sketch. But, you know, also, I don't think you have like...

I wrote a sketch about how sausage is made. Write it up, Dana. We had three episodes. But when you see these other guys go by you on a rocket ship, that's the hard part. On my own, I could just sit there and learn like school. Right. But every two weeks, someone else is getting hired and then on the show. I'm like, wait.

And then the insult was, I think after two years, he was like, we're going to keep you on as another feature player. I'm like, I'm the only one left. Am I just, I'm not forecast. So that was humiliation. But like, again, I walked out. When it all is said and done, it feels like I was on there and did what I should do.

But it was never when I was there, I never walked away going, nailed it. I was like, fucking walking with a limp going, I don't know what happened. It's just hindsight. It only,

like, it only comes in, yeah. I mean, do we think that that's like, like character building or do we think that that's traumatic? Hmm. So?

It's been trauma since. Yeah. I mean, I feel like it was really tough. Yeah. But I got a lot out of it. I think it depends. I mean,

some people you don't hear from again. And that's just how it works. And that's probably what happens. And so you leave there. I remember one time we were doing movies and I said, I think I want to leave. And they go, where are you going to go? You leave S&L.

Then what happens? I'm like, You'd already done Tommy Boy, which was a smash. I think. I was like, I don't want to leave because I'm getting more stuff. And they go, but that stuff dries up if you leave. Because I didn't have time to do it all. And I was like, never quite got that.

And then later you go, oh, if you work, you usually get more work. But that didn't make any sense. And then it did later. But I was like, eh. So you're quite, I would just say it puts armor on you. You'll never be another thing like this live unprepared. It's in the cards, all the nonsense, all your relatives watching. they're not using you so much this week, eh?

So you get resilient. I mean, you are coming out in a huge movie. I don't want to jump ahead because they have some sketches I want to get to. Wicked, wicked. And so that and then SNL, I mean, it's a little bit of a, and then your podcast is huge. I mean, it's right in the top 20 out of four million. That's a lot of you guys.

So there's a lot of success happening to you right now. And I had a phase like that with Wayne's World and so forth and so on. So what are you, I am a licensed therapist, but how are you feeling? Are you in your sixth season as a cast member or going into your sixth season as a cast member? Going into sex. Going into sex, yeah. And you have, just for the audience, I think three or four Emmy nominations, like stacked in a row. Sure. It wasn't, it's not, it wasn't, it wasn't, I didn't do the Dana thing of consecutive, but yes.

Um, is that what Dana did? Dana, I think Dana has like five consecutive and consecutive years. Six. Jesus. Oh, boy. And then seven for the win. Um, yes. We'll get this online for people listening.

No, but, um. Go to a side chat for that. I'm just, I'm going around on my head because I'm watching your stuff and it's like, as you know, Lauren loves people. Well, he loves comedians, basically. He loves us. He loves funny people. He also loves funny people who can go and score and make the audience really happy consistently.

And that's where you are. I mean, have watched all yourself. It's like, you're landing constantly on that show. My hit rate is average. I like there's some duds, of course. I'm also an attorney. Yeah. I see.

The doctor's sketch with Ryan Gostler. Oh God. Stop, stop, stop. Bone Yang is straight with Sydney, Sweeney.

Oh, yeah. George Santos on update in the cold opening, you know, just things that are kind of killer, viral stuff.

Now I'm going to let you talk. It doesn't, it doesn't feel, you're asking me how it feels, like, someone asked, well, it was,

sure, totally surreal, but someone asked, and I'm not comparing myself to share or anything, but someone asked share recently, like,

what does it feel like to be an icon? And she goes, it doesn't feel like anything? Like, wouldn't you guys, don't you guys agree? Like, like when someone's like, what did it feel like? Or what does it feel like to have been on SNL? And I'm like, I don't know. Feels like, it doesn't feel like anything, right? Most of the time people in life, unless you're on a chain gang or building things,

most of us just hang out, most of our lives. It's an easy. So you're even at SNL, you're hanging out. Then in between shows, you're hanging out. Right now we're hanging out, which is a miracle. you know. And so, yeah, I remember the first time I got recognized and my wife said, you're famous, it really shocked her.

And then it made her see other famous people as just people. So, yeah, we've been behind the curtain, so we kind of understand. Right. You know. But that still feels like a mystifying thing to you. Like, if you see someone else go through it, is that, is that fair to say? I relate to it. I'm interested in it when I watch

because I can get Saturday Live which is great on Peacock at 830 on the West Coast. So I'm watching it live a lot more. I get the YouTube clip. So it's kind of fun and I watch you know I notice cast members getting confidence a sketch

they're breaking through that Saturday Live is unintentionally I think unless Lauren is more brilliant than people give them credit for that it's a reality show. You take unknowns, you put them on at this show and see how they go, or you take a football player, hey, maybe that guy can do sketch comedy. Yeah.

The show is always entertaining and interesting to me, because I'm kind of watching it from this other perspective. Yeah. And I think, like, I get caught up in the meta-narrative sometimes, especially now. I'm like, oh, like there's, like, I'll get rubbed into like a headline, like, or like, into like some pickup every now. And then I'm like, oh, God, this is so unfair. This is so stressful. This is not what I meant. Or this is not what I was doing.

Like, you know, while like Chappelle was standing on stage with me. But it's like, but it ends up, I think Warren understands that it ends up being this thing that like is what the show is, which is like the way that like people's emotions are on display for this and the way that like. the culture changes or the pendulum swings one way and then back the other. And, you know, I think, like, it's all, I think Lauren has an awareness of it. I think Lauren knows that it's a reality show. Well, Steve Higgins said that he wrote the Constitution, basically, and it's a liquid, you know, it changes with the past.

Yeah, yeah. I come from the analog era. I mean, you know, basically landlines and fax machines. I think Lauren likes pickup. Yeah. Lauren likes pickup. If you make some noise, you're coming back. I think that's what he wants.

He just doesn't want anybody flatlining. Sure. And if they are, I remember, by the way, just to go back, I just saw the Sidney Sweeney one. I like when Heidi at the beginning casually goes, he just plays gay as a shortcut to jokes. Shortcut to laughs. I was like, oh. The shortcut to laughs.

And then there was a couple other burns. It was pretty funny. But that was a good one. she was great in that too. She was great. She seems like what I score. I think Kim Kardashian did a nice job sort of surprisingly.

I don't think Sydney is a surprise that she was good, but it's just good when people, everything kind of falls in the right way on a show because it can go the other way so easily. Totally. I think she's an example of a host who came in and understood

how she was being consumed and perceived already. Like she came in, she was like, please everyone make jokes about my boobs. Like she was, she was practically begging everybody to write. Say no more. Say no more. Like, and then, and then she, like, it went down to, went down to addressing her month

Thursday right before the tape. I was like, just so you know, like, we're getting an intimacy coordinator. And if you're at any point uncomfortable, you know, you can tap out. Like, if, you know, if we make out and you hate it, no problem, we can cut it. And she goes, oh, and I'm on euphoria. she also said, but then she also said, she goes, you're, you're living every gay man's dream by like having sex with me. And I'm like, how do you know that?

Like, she knows that like, she is so, she's so raw sexual power that, like, anyone would be thrilled to, like, simulate sex with her. And so crazy. Like, were there hosts like that when you guys were there where, like, it was just like some, like, just. We had, I had crushes on hosts for sure. Sometimes you see someone that's really like an actress that's great and they come on. And then like anything in the world, their personality or their talent during the week just shoots them even higher. You're like, oh my God. They're either super cool or they roll with anything or they're just good in the sketches or nice. Everybody and then you're like it goes up or some people they can lose. Of course. Points. Of course. I think Sweeney seems like a good one. And Dana worked a lot of great people. too, yeah. This goes back.

It was Dolly Parton, Bill and John her talking to Dolly. And she's got a little cut, the thing, the whole thing. And she goes, all right, well,

I'm going to look away. See, you boys can look. Let's get it over with. Her monologue was great because camera just kept going over to her cleavage. That was a great monologue.

Yeah, she had a sense of humor about the whole thing. And when you talk to her, she's really just kind of this brilliant songwriter. I mean, she created Dolly Parton.

But, you know, the theme to bodyguard, I shall always... Was Britney Spears the one that had the boob monologue where her boobs are moving? The moving tits, yeah. That was so funny. What a great, easy idea. Not easy idea. It's a good idea that worked. Yeah, but she had to buy into it. Oh, yeah, you were about to tell us the host that was mean to everyone?

Yeah, I'll tell you guys off, Mike. You're trying to, we're trying to train. We were going to be on, Mike. No, but this was... We got in trouble for saying Steven Seagall wasn't. I mean, everyone gets in trouble for saying something,

but that's what everyone asks. And then you can only dodge it for so long or you just try to explain why they weren't great. I heard Paris Hilton was not great, but that was after I left. And then you go, why, or B... I've heard so many people, but some, it just doesn't work out

and some are fighting it. And there's a reason, but it's scary, it's scary place. It could be some people deal with stress by lashing out. I've seen that and being kind of overly angry and it's all just anxiety and fear, you know? It was just, I think the layer on my little quote,

my little poll, which by the way, like, I was like, it was like on Andy Cohen show and they play this game. And so like, I saw it's a game called get pickup. It's a game called stay on another season or. But you didn't say the name of the person. So I felt it was pretty benign when I watched it. just saying there was this one. But then at the game of, because of all the,

I think it was the game. And I think it was me saying that this person made multiple cast members cry. And I think that is more about, that is more about the environment of the place. Well, that's like Wednesday, like, like, imagine like you stay up until 4 a.m. writing a sketch and then the host is like, I fucking hate this.

Like, you're going to have some, your nerves are afraid. You're going to have some weird, bizarre emotional response. I'm not saying I was the one who cried. You're exhausted. You're exhausted. spent. I get it.

I mean, with that Andy Cohen show. Did Lorne Tia up at all? Did Lord? Yeah. Born. Fade in on Bowen. He's dressed as a Irish potato.

Oh, my. Oh, my. An Irish potato. Update could use a potato. I don't know. I don't know where I was going. But some of those shows like Andy Cohen's, I'm saying is that the questions are like,

whatever you answer is going out there because I don't. Totally. like, who did you hate the most? Right. Like the most? It's like, who's the funniest? Then it's like, click here to hear who is the funniest. No, totally.

Just set it up for horrible. But you survive. Gossip is in our DNA. I mean, the homo sapiens from 200,000 years ago. Gossip, oh, excuse me, the gay sapiens. Yeah. By the way, I mean, in the gay community, because you're the first, person to really have so many sketches around someone being gay.

I mean, the gay umpalumpa is especially hysterical. Oh, thanks. I mean, are you embraced? Are you iconic? Are they, is it because it, or are you ridicule? How does it go over? I think there's a healthy, I think, I think a gay audience is always going to be a little leery and they're always going to be like, well, I could have done it better.

You know, like, there's, there's a, there's, um, what a drag. It's a, it's, it's, it's, I think, but I think it's healthy. I think it's like a fun, like, like, I can't get too. I think so, too. Just like us. I think, yeah, I mean, it's just, I was told, they're jealous. Yeah. Yeah.

The closest I got, I was from San Francisco in the stand-up scene, had gay friends, and they said, uh, the church lady would play at the gay bars. Of course. In San Francisco, they would play the sketches. And I go, I just thought it was flattering. Oh my God. No, Church Lady is very gay, gay iconic. And David, I will say, I think, no, and this is not something SNL related, honestly.

I think Just Shoot Me is, like, very queer canon. What is it? Queer canon. I love it. Just shoot me. It's queer canon. I think, like, there's something about, like, you and, like, Wendy Malick and, like, Laura Sanjoumo. Yeah.

Like, I think, like, there's something, like, it's like, it was like, it was like, the first sitcom that was like at a magazine. And so I think, like, I think gay people of a certain generation. A model magazine. A model magazine. So is all that, that world. And then, yeah. And then that was, that was, that was honestly how I first discovered David. I was like, it was pre, it was before I was aware of what S&L, the history of S&L was.

Right. I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I just moved to the States. I started watching TV all the time. From Australia. Yeah. From Canada. From Canada. Yeah.

From Canada. in the States. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what's funny, Bowen is that for a model magazine, there was no gay person on the show. Sure, sure. Yes, it was me.

I don't know. I mean, is that what you're telling me? The whole time. You were like, the gay Finch was our favorite. I'm like, oh, my God. Yeah, I don't know, maybe. But I loved Wendy on that show. She was so, I mean, well, I had a blast with everybody.

And I thought Wendy every read-through is so funny as Nina. Fantastic. So, such a blast. That was a lucky break of leaving S&L and doing something else. I was just saying, that next move is terrifying. I was going to say, I feel like you landed really on a nice sort of padding. Yeah, it was just luck, you know, the way this business is, it's you think you're good, bad. But if you are in the right place and you get on the right show and there's writers and a network loves it and all those people are good around me, it just really, really helps.

and then you just try to tread water for the rest of your fucking life. But I will say it's easier, bone. It is. Well, this is how I feel. You guys are asking me how I feel going into my six season. I completely,

completely abide by this thing that it is just luck. Like, if I was, and I think even Tina mentioned this, like, on her episode where she was like, this would never have flown, like, the iceberg

would have never been on the show, like, even 10 years before. Like, I got very, very luck. I feel like it's, Like, I feel like the Mars rover landing on that square inch of Martian soil that they have to land at that exact spot on land. Like, that, that's me. Like, I, like, I couldn't have, I could not have been any kind of, even like, yeah, I just couldn't have made it to the show period. Had it not been for like a very specific set of alignments, you know?

A lot of fluky things. I mean, I auditioned twice as a stand-up. And it wasn't for Lorne, but for the, you know, pass, pass, you know. Yep, yep. And then going back to your share analogy, the night that I, I was in a club, and Rosie O'Donald was playing there, I'd not met her. And I said, I think I have a, Lauren Michaels is going to come see me at this little club on the west side of L.A.

And so she agreed, and we flipped a coin and we both got the scene. And what happened was, I'm nervous as hell. Lauren comes on, the head of the network, and then share. So I just, when you said share, oh, share. And when I run into share, very rarely, she would go, I was there the night you, you know. That's incredible. Oh, sir. I just, I said, David's got a share.

I'm never trying to do share. Do you really leave? I'm 74. You should do share. I would love to do share. I've got a good share impression. I bet you do. Can we give it five, five seconds of share?

Sure. if I want to put tits on my back, that's nobody's business but mine. Pretty good. A lot of people just go half breed. They do the limp to half breed. That's it. You know, boom.

They go too low. They go too like snap out of it. But she was never that low. She's got a pretty high, like, literal pitch. She pitches her voice out pretty high. Yeah. I love her. I met her when I was 11 or 12 at a theater near where I grew up in the peninsula.

Sonny and Cher, and we waited outside to get her autograph. So to your point about the kismet and the weirdness of getting on the S&L or any of this happening, I happen to be in the right place, the right time over and over again. And then, you know, like Mike Myers said, Chaw, would you like to play Garth? Well, okay, what is it? You know, and then it goes to that. Yeah. I agree, but, you know, there's one sketch that I, the year look, the, the, the

The design of your look really stood out for me as instantly funny. And that was the doctor sketch with Ryan Gosling. Oh, yeah. You had this white suit, long straight black hair. It was such a cleverly written sketch. And then just about, first of all, nothing went wrong. You're talking to the relatives, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And Ryan Gosling comes out. I mean, that whole show, I have to say, just did exude joy. For whatever reason, it had the beavers and budhead and, you know, Yeah. Something about Ryan Gosling on that show. He's a star. Just, yeah. And someone who like, you know, every time, like, there's like, like, anytime like an actor would come on, like a serious actor would come on, like they would just, like, they just ask not necessarily the right questions.

They'd be like, what's like, what's he coming from? What's his motivation? You're like, it's just, just say the line, read the card. But he, he, he, I think he, at that point, that was like his fourth time hosting, he was asking. he was asking those same questions, but for some reason, like, there was an endearing quality to it,

and I think he really was, that's his way of, maybe that's some people's way of just finding the comedy of it. Like, it's, it's just their process. It's not a comedian's process at all, but it's an act, it's like an Oscar nominated actors process,

for sure. Like, you know, that's something's working. What is your, for, because we were writing pen and paper a lot of the time. I mean, we, the cast back in the early days. Sure, sure. Sometimes I would write

a sketch, I would just put a checkmark for either something funny or an actual laugh. And I would try to... In read-through. Well, in read-through or even ahead of time and afterwards, like, okay, there's a gap here. Hmm. What can I put maybe a funny physical move or what's your methodology? And I sat with a lot of writers as well, or I write alone, but I liked, I was a stand-up. I love working with writers and bouncing, you know, love that process.

So you probably... You probably are you, are you riffing with some of these writers in the room? Yeah. Ends up being, that ends up being the best method. There's always someone like on keys, just like typing everything everyone's saying. And then we just. Oh, really? And then what I've started to do or what I learned from Sudy was, you know, you would just type out everything everyone would say in a big old document.

And then you'd print out. There's something important about printing it out and holding it in your hands. And then circling it. And then you would have your select. circle the jokes that would... Yeah, it's very tactile process. It works. It works.

And then it's just a matter of rearranging them, and then filling in with connective tissue. And cutting out the fat. Yep. And then you get it tighter, and then you cut out more fat. Yep. And then it's...

I need this line. I need this. We need this. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would do the checkmark thing that Dave said it read through. Like, you do a sketch and you're... It's read through and you're hitting what worked.

Yeah. And then you look after. If it didn't get picked, you go, well, I only had three check marks on eight pages. That's it. I think Higgins even told us one time, like, what you do is you set up the thread, you yank at it, loosen, yank again, harder, bringing another thread, cut both threads, pull one again. Like, it was just like such a, like, that is, I don't know, like, that's such a complicated way of, like, doing it. But, I mean, it's a nice framework, I guess, that's how I do stand.

Colorful vernacular would be like, just, well, we beat the shit out of it. Yeah. We took the idea and we just went beat the fuck out of it. You know, just like, how about this? How about this? How about that? But what is the, what's the easiest one that you've had that was a big score that just sort of came together really fast? You know, some of them just sort of fall together.

And others are just, um, are really fix. George Santos. George was fun. That was mostly, that was mostly Jost. I mean, the weekend update one was me and, uh, Allison Gates and Ken Siblet. But, um, Jost would do the cold opens and the candle and the wind thing. was joist. But it was one called Sarah Lee

with Harry Styles where... Yes, I saw that. That was me and Julio, and that was just the two of us. It was kind of a one, like a one and done straight line pass, and that was it. And basically that went to TV.

And that was another thing where we were like, I can't believe this is going on air. Like, I can't believe. And that makes you go every now and then like, oh, like, Lauren, Lauren does just kind of get when to like, he understands when something is just ready to be out there, even though you as the person who wrote it might not agree with him.

Even though you as the person who wrote it, like even you have doubts about whether or not this is meant for a wider audience than the people internal at SNL. Lauren is like, no, like America's ready to see this, you know, which is crazy. Can you imagine? Oh, sorry, go ahead, David. I think just sometimes Monday meetings, you pitch something and he goes, this is the week.

Or he'll say it's not ready yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he goes, that feels like two weeks from now. And then he goes, this is the week. And then this is when we need it. And it's usually right when it's supposed to be. I know. It's pretty amazing how, yeah, he's right.

I think he's downloaded. I mean, Lauren is almost like a human AI when it comes to that show because a half century of downloading everything, what will kind of work, instincts around it in that room all filtered through his gigantic brain he's incredibly right and then yeah it's all intuitive at this point i mean yeah because he's never he's never sweating well right before air show is when lorn is really the most hampt up we'll lose the wig um we'll play that after update uh can be uh the wine glass is could it be a little shorter all right you know i mean you couldn't there's never been a camera on that meeting has there like is anyone

ever just taking a video and put that, picking the show at like 10.45 that's on live to the world at 1130. I think they finally did put a camera in the room. So they're releasing all, they're releasing all these documents. No, because they're releasing all these documentaries for the 50. There's five documentaries.

Are you in any of the documentaries? I don't think so. I think they just sat me down or just talk about. I think so there's one. I don't know what they're like, but each one is about a different aspect. And like one's about Lorne. One's about the musical guest.

One's about like the three days. It's like one. A one's about cowbell, the sketch. Once about cowbell, yes. There's a whole documentary on it. Yeah. Incredible. So I, I'm just excited to see how they cut it together.

I have no idea. One time Lauren grabbed me by the cue cards and he went, I'm scared. And then I go, he goes, no one will believe you. And then he walked away. That's good to me. By the way, Bowen, while I'm waiting for you, for this idiot. When I do stand-up, I try a joke out, or I put it on a voice note just off top my head. Yep, yep. Get it typed up, Heather, it helps me with that. And then I go through

an underline what I need. It's exact same thing. It's so funny. You said that. It's great. And then I do it at a club, tape it, and then go, what, because I try to memorize, I go, what did I miss? Tighten and Brighton. And then you go, this is what I, this is what works, this part. What you need. Go ahead. I like that. Well, no, I just, you know, I kind of do my own sort of research. So this is from you, I don't know, some of... Oh, shit. Oh, no. You just said, and I understood what you were talking about. It's not...

Is this the cringe-worthy thing? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I was stoned off my gourd last month on my podcast. That's what I thought! Yes. No, I'm kidding. No. You were stone, really? Well, yeah, yeah. No, but we were... My friend Matt and I were just talking about, like,

this concept of, like, pushing past, like, a feeling of cringed-cringiness, like, pushing past this feeling of like embarrassment or humiliation or shame like RuPaul has this thing like your fear of looking stupid is holding you back and he like says this to so many of the drag queens on the show. He's like your fear of looking stupid is holding you back. I'm like that. Yeah.

It's so it just applies to so many things. And I was saying that we were I was like making this larger point about how S&L is like the, the biggest arena for looking stupid for like trying out an idea that you think is brilliant. And it is like all week, it's this idea that has been. great and then it fucking bombs on live television and you have to like you got to develop your coping mechanisms faster else you're going to go crazy yes so that's that that's the context it bombs it makes you crazy in the middle of you're thinking how is this not working what are we doing wrong yeah everyone loved everyone loved this but like you you never know and it's yeah it's

weird it's no sale with the crowd and vice versa and it's the opposite live on air and you know We, I think Phil and I, and Victoria used to say we're just clowns and really think of ourselves as clowns, you know, because they can get high flutin. These sophisticated comedians who are commenting on society, you know. So, you know, put a dress on me, put a wig, put me in a big diaper. I was in a big diaper once with Matthew Broderick and the sketch bomb. We were bare chested and giant diapers with bonnets on and it played a dead silence. And then the commercial break, this is my first season. We walk by the bleachers, we kind of trying to wave to the audience as they look away.

They're like, fuck you. Yeah, you want. They're like, we hate you. It's like if you're not, you know, I mean, do you have sketches in your head that you feel like are too far or not ready or that are sort of fantasy? If I could get that to work, you know, do you play guitar, kid? Yeah. But no, funnily enough, I like, I've always wanted to write like a yacht rock sketch or something. something like musical there we go musical thing but like I don't know like it's just not that seems

that that's not even like I can see it it's just it I feel like there's just I've got a million steps to that but what you're saying is so it's so real it's this thing of like this is what this is what I mean by S&L being the cringe the most cringe worthy place in show business it's like it is you need to learn how to push past that embarrassment or else you will you'll you'll die yeah or you'll pull your next good idea and go, I don't know about this one. Yeah, exactly. And this is, this is the beauty of comedy is that it's, no one agrees on what funny. There's no universal definition of what funny is. And that's, that's, that's, that's the amazing thing about it. There's, like, no one agrees. And, and, and for something to be funny, all it has to be is

funny to two people. That is the smallest unit of measurement for comedy. And that's all that matters. Like, the political shit that gets attached to it doesn't really matter. Like, it's, It's just about that. And I agree with this whole clown thing. Like, we're just clowns. I never want to comment on society. I just want to put on a funny costume. You want what they say, kill.

You want people to be helpless. And you also want, and I'm sure you've had this people, see you at an airport or whatever. Man, me and my friends just went crazy for, you know, the icebergs catch or whatever you would get. And that's also your, that's really fun. I mean, that is very satisfying. When people, you know they've seen it multiple.

times and quoting lines. You know, that's the best. One thing I was going to ask you, because I'm curious for myself, like, why do I love when people, because I'm pre-wrap and hip-hop. I've been exposed to it massively. When there is

a sketch where people are rapping together, it always entertains the hell out of me. Timothy Shalame and I guess Marcello was it, the baby face one. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. And then Keenan came in and syncopated movement. And it's just always is entertaining to me. I don't see it as anything other than just I'm immediately entertained,

especially when you don't expect it. You're asking why? Well, I'm just saying, I'm kind of curious how there'd be people, you know, real purists a long time ago. Oh, it's, it's hack, you know, rapping, rhyming, you know, but I'm entertained every time. So that's all. I think it's just, I think it's just like a structure. I don't want to get too. Do you think about it? Do you think, what if, what if What if Biden did a rap? I think people would go crazy. Whoops. All right, let's wrap.

Bowen, you're a stud. We got to know you. We got to know a little bit about the iceberg. We got to know everybody. I love you guys. We appreciate it. Yes. 2200 on his SAT.

He's kind of highly educated. I know, I'm just throwing this out at the very end, but I was like, damn. He taught himself Adobe Photoshop. I read that earlier. Mess so much. He went. These are just...

Talk about him already. Thanks, Bowen. I know you got to run. Appreciate it. And we'll see you at the show at some point. All right, listen, if you're enjoying the fly on the wall, of course, hopefully you are. Click follow. We don't want to be desperate, but obviously smash that goddamn button on your favorite podcast app.

Smash it. Leave a review, a good one. leave a five-star rating, nothing else. Whoops. And maybe even share an episode with a friend. If you're watching this episode on YouTube, please. Subscribe, Dana. What do you think?

I'm going to tell you this right now. Him and I'll believe me later. Fly in the Wall, believe it or not, is presented by Odyssey. And executive produced by Hold For It, Dana Carvey and David Spade. Or David Spade and Dana Carvey. We don't write this stuff. Heather Santoro. Greg Holtzman and Leah Reese Dennis.

The show is edited by Evan Cox with production support from Phil Sweet Tech. Talent production and booking by Sophia Lippor.