Focused - 216: Wholehearted Transformation, with Amy Wicks

Episode Date: November 5, 2024

Welcome to Focus, a productivity podcast about more than just cranking widgets. I'm Mike Schmitz. I'm joined by my fellow co-host, Mr. David Sparks. Hey, David. Hey, Mike, how are you? Doing great. How about you? I'm good, but I'm looking at my wall and I see a calendar up there that's about full. I guess it's time for a new one, right? Yes, absolutely. We mentioned this in the last episode, but the 2025 Focus calendar is now available.

So if you want to get yours and get it ready before 2025 hits, you can go to newyear.net. N-E-U-Y-E-A-R dot net slash product slash focus will be a link in the show notes. And yeah, it's a dry erase calendar that's got the quarters all the months run together. It's a it's a great productivity tool. I've got one on my wall as well. I got an email this year from a person who finished his dissertation and he called it his dissertation caliber. He did the Seinfeld thing where he he put it on the wall

and crossed off a day every time he worked on it. And I thought that was a good use because it it's nice, you put it on your wall, you can write on it. Go check it out at New Year, we've got all the details there, but we're very excited to have this for sale again this year. We are, we are also excited to have a special guest today. Welcome to the Focus Podcast, Amy Wicks. Thank you, I'm thrilled to be here.

And I didn't know this about you guys, but I use the same calendar. It's very handy, and I was just thinking how I needed to order my next one. Nice. You know, the trick, Amy, is you take it to, to the staples or your local, you know, stationary store and have them mounted on foam. That's the trick. Oh, there you go. I love that. Yeah. Great.

Much easier to write on it when it's got that firm back. That's what I do over here. Brilliant, gonna steal that one. Okay, pro tip, calendar tip from Sparky. Amy, tell us about yourself a bit. Sure, I am a mom of three teenagers, which yes, it's as hard as it sounds, but I am married to an arborist,

and that's a fancy word for a guy who cuts trees, but also studies them as well. I've been a podcaster for eight years. I'm a business and life coach with emphasis in Enneagram, six working genius, and spiritual direction. I've been an author, and I love now coaching and certifying coaches. That's been a new thing I've been doing the last couple of years. So I get to wear a lot of hats and I'm thrilled with the diversity of it. I have a lot of fun.

CB I actually met Amy in person at Sean Blank's Focus Like a Boss event, which we got to get you out to one of these days. Absolutely. So good. But it was a great session in Kansas City. And I was fascinated by all of the Enneagram insights that Amy would sprinkle out throughout the conversation. And I had been familiar with the Enneagram assessment. We talked a little bit about that in the last episode. The whole assessment process is fascinating to me and I like the whole process of self-discovery. So I've taken a lot of those different tests, but the Enneagram was the one that just seemed like everybody else kind of got it, but I had trouble wrapping my head around it.

And so I'm hoping that we can dive into that a little bit here. But before we get into the specifics of the Enneagram, I'm kind of curious, Amy, how you ended up in the role that you have as a wholehearted transformation coach. How'd you get there? Amy Bolling-Hall Quite by accident. But isn't that all our stories, right? It does tend to be that way. I honestly grew up in the ministry.

I was a pastor's kid. Unfortunately, in a not so healthy home, I'll just kind of put that disclaimer out there, but it did lead me to continue to take some roles in ministry and ultimately, I just typically ended up counseling other young women. Sometimes older than me, sometimes my age. It was just a natural thing I did,

which was listen and hear people's stories, try to give helpful wisdom and encouragement in some form or fashion, but it was just something I naturally did. That over the years was just, you know, this side thing or just how I showed up in relationships. And all through that, I did some formal training and education.

I also just was a barista at different times. I was even a real estate agent, but I did a lot of businesses and different types of work. While I always did this additional thing of life coaching, but I didn't know it was called life coaching. I had three kids in three and a half years. We moved to a new city where I didn't know anyone and that was a foundational time for me because it stripped me of all my the rules and titles I had had before. I didn't have any like specific job except for being a mom and a couple of little like side things.

Cause I'm always, I'm like the serial entrepreneur in some respects, but I, I loved being a mom, but I also really struggled with motherhood. And there was a couple of circumstantial things, like I mentioned, being in a new place all alone and three kids, three and under, it was difficult. But it was in that time that I began to ask a little bit more about my personality and my wiring.

And I'd always been a personality nerd. Like I love to geek out on personality tests, whether it's Myers-Briggs or distests. In the 90s, it was the Gary Smalley animals, the different like golden retriever, lion, otter, beaver. I always was really fascinated and curious about it. But in the early years of motherhood, I became a little bit more introspective and realized,

oh, how I parent and how I navigate this unique chapter of life looks different than my friends. And some friends, it seems like this is easy for them. Other friends, it was a similar struggle. So fast forward a little bit. I've had this curiosity and I would read lots of things and research lots of things. I stepped into the world of writing, authorship, podcasting. And really at the same time that I stepped into that, I heard about the Enneagram. I first thought it was an-ee-ah-gram. I couldn't even figure out how to spell it correctly.

It was just something I was hearing about. But as I heard other authors or speakers or teachers talk about it, I thought, ooh, this is it. This is a tool, a personality profile that better explains why I do what I do, not just what I do. And that was really kind of the beginning of the last eight years where I began to take knowledge that I learned for myself

and use it to help others and learn and investigate in a way that I could add to my tool belt and purposely create a process to help others with some of the same struggles that either I was going through or had found transformation and some victory in to be able to help other fellow moms to love their motherhood more, just appreciate their unique take on it. But then it also ended up bleeding into helping women who wanted to thrive in their business and how they ran their companies, how they worked with others, marriages and all sorts of relationships. So it really was, has just been a snowball from beginning to end.

And I hope I get to stick in this lane for, I don't know, 50 more years until I'm done here on earth, I think. Yeah, the interesting thing to me about these types of assessments or tests is that they really affect not just a single area of life. They permeate everything that you do. And I remember a while back I got to actually interview the president of the Colby company.

The Colby Type A was an assessment that I came across when I was working with an organization and it was presented as a way to figure out how to work better with your teammates. But then while I was talking to the president for a podcast interview, actually, they mentioned they were rebranding a spin-off version of that for couples and how to apply your Colby styles to improve your relationship with your significant other. I thought that was fascinating.

My wife and I took it and it was really insightful to see. And I don't know why I never thought about that before, but of course it affects my relationships at work, but it also affects my relationships at home. 100%. I think that we definitely want to take the invitation to self-awareness so we avoid self-deception. But self-awareness, if just left at that step, doesn't serve us a whole lot. I think we're invited to learn more about how these tools can transform us and then transform our relationships

because we know a better way. And how I always say it in the whole hearted community is to understand your starting point so it doesn't become your stuck point. And if we engage with the self awareness tools with that kind of idea that it could form us and it could help change and transform us, then we can leave a better person thanks to the knowledge we now possess and use it to better and enhance everything that we do. CB. Yeah, so let's just talk a little bit about that transformation. You know, someone is listening to this first time they've encountered

the idea of these personality tests. Prior to this, they just took the Facebook quizzes or whatever, and they, well, that's a fun novel thing, but it doesn't really do anything. You know, why should people care about this sort of thing? What's possible with this process of self-discovery and understanding yourself better? KS We tend to repeat our bad behaviors more often than our good behaviors. And so I think it's really helpful to have an understanding of, again, it goes to that why we do what we do, because sometimes it's not just about changing behaviors or even just changing the habits.

When we have a better glimpse of what our motivations are, which is the Enneagram in its assisting form. It clarifies what your core motivations, your desires, your fears, the message your heart longs to hear, the thing that is motivating you behind the scenes in all your decisions and your engagement with others. When we have a better understanding of that why within us,

we can go, oh, this thing that I do to get my need met that's not serving me, maybe I need to go a different way to get that desire met, that longing met, the message met, a different pattern of behavior that I'm doing to avoid my core fear. When we have that better understanding about ourselves, we can show up differently to our daily rhythms and our habits, our behaviors, or even our communication. So we can go more holistically getting our needs met,

not out of a maladaptive behavior, but in a holistic, wholehearted way that will eventually lead us to look up and go, oh, I'm not as stuck anymore, or I am not just surviving, or these relationships that had constant friction. we have a little bit more peace and harmony. Nothing's perfect ever. But I think we can enjoy a little bit more ease and a little less exhaustion from trying so hard on our own. CB. Yeah, you used the word wholehearted in that description. And I know that's the name of your company and your website as well. What exactly do you mean by wholehearted? Do you mind unpacking that a little bit more for us?

I like that term. I don't mind at all. I love it. So I'll have to keep it as brief as possible. But I mentioned that phrase that I have in my community a lot of like your starting point doesn't have to be your start point. Another phrase that I have in my community a lot of like, your starting point doesn't have to be your step point. Another phrase that really encompasses the whole hearted journey is we are all

broken. We are all blowing it, but it's the brave one that does something about it. And the reality is the moment we're born, we're born into a broken world that is between Edens, which is a phrase between the perfection that we were once created in to the perfection that we'll get to realize someday in eternity. And so we have this liminal space, this in-between space

where life does not go according to plan. No matter how well we plan, there are broken moments. Whether someone has broken our heart or we've made choices that have broken others' hearts, there's just, there's a lot of broken hearted moments that we'll experience in our lifetime. And one of the, how this coincides with the Enneagram is the Enneagram sometimes helps give language to those brokenhearted moments. It helps us identify where we've been a victim or a villain in our story. And in the process of my coaching and in the process that I think from going from brokenhearted

to wholehearted, it's a long transformation process. And it's a process that I believe we'll all be invited to till our dying day. But when we do story work and we go through the whole hard process and we identify those brokenhearted moments or the moments we've been a victim or a villain, we also get to take a moment and assess, where could I or where do I want to be a hero in my story? Where do I want to have a moment where I say no more?

And I exercise agency, I exercise the self-control and self-government to step out of the places, again, to step out of those stuck points. So that way I can begin the transformation process to step out of the places, again, to step out of those stuck points. So that way I can begin the transformation process to wholeheartedness. So in kind of how the story goes for, and Donald, shout out to Donald Miller,

who encapsulated the idea of victim villain hero guide in a couple of his books when it comes to marketing and business language. I've kind of invited my clients to examine their roles in the story. And the idea is to become a hero in those moments, but also then to take those moments and in time, help others and be the guide by the side to others.

And I think that, you know, this is, this is a whole thing because even if we've been a guide, we can have a broken hearted moment that takes us back to being a victim or a villain. And so we constantly are on this path and this journey of transformation that well, at least we're invited to constantly stay on that path transformation, at least we're invited to constantly stay on that path and that journey to where we're mindful of those brokenhearted moments or those moments that we could slip back into that and continue to what I teach is partner with the Lord to continue to step into those victorious moments so we can continue to then be the guide and guide others and help others from their brokenhearted moments to wholehearted healing.

And ultimately, we'll have moments in our story. I was again thinking story and books, we'll have a volume where we've conquered and we've overcome, and there's that bright happy moment at the end of it. But then the next volume can be another hardship and another heartache where we have to take all of our broken pieces and give them to a loving God who wants to heal and to put it back together for that wholehearted healing moment. AC This sounds like it jives a lot with the stoic philosophy that you read a lot about. I'm kind of curious your take on this. CB I think there's a lot to it. I'm not sure what angle are you particularly thinking, Mike? AC Well, the victim and the villain, you know, the fact that we're all broken feels very much a Marcus Aurelius to me and Oliver Berkman, I guess. Yeah.

Yeah. I, I do think that, um, a realistic, you know, review of who you are and reflection is so important. And this is something that, that you're really getting at. You know, people have to be at peace with who they are and, but also willing to try and make changes. And I think all religious traditions, good ones bring that in to some degree and people who embrace it. I mean,

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site using Squarespace so that I could give the keys to somebody else and I didn't have to maintain it. So whether you are someone who knows what to do when it comes to web development, but you want to focus on the content or you're the nerd in somebody's life and you want to build something, but you don't want to maintain it, you should check out Squarespace. You can head to squarespace.com right now and sign up for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, you can go to squarespace.com slash focus to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash focus when you decide to sign up and you'll get 10% off your

first purchase and you'll show your support for the Focus podcast. Our thanks to Squarespace for their support of this show and all of Relay. So Amy, this NEA gram is an unfamiliar test to me because to be honest, I don't keep up with these too much. Actually, let me tell you a little bit. I had an interesting experience with testing Actually, let me tell you a little bit. I had an interesting experience with testing. When I was back at my jobby job, I mean this was been 20 years ago or something, the boss hired someone to come in and become like the team coach, you know?

So we all had to take some of these tests and then we had this big joint meeting. And so we're all sitting around a table together, all the employees for this 10 employee company. And then, so we go around each person on the table and we all report our results on this test. I don't even remember which one it was. And I say, whatever it was, I was a badger,

or I was yellow, or whatever it was at the time. And the coach looks over to my boss and says, see, I told you he was just like that. And to me, the whole thing felt so manipulative that I really like had this negative reaction to all these tests to tell you the truth. And it's strange, because I'm a person who does a lot of meditation and a lot of journaling.

I do a ton of self-reflection, but there's definitely a hole for me when it comes to these tests. I'm like very resistant to them because of that experience. And I bet there's a lot of people out there who are kind of of a similar bent, but I did take the test for today's show. I put the results in the show notes.

And taking the tests, it really brought me back a little bit to that, but also I got thinking, well, don't be silly. You should use this stuff to make yourself better. Any tool, even if you do have a bit of a negative reaction to it. I think there's probably a lot of folks in our audience that feel the same. Talk to them a bit about why these things are to it. I think there's probably a lot of folks in our audience that feel the same.

Talk to them a bit about why these things are worth it. Yeah, I think that is a great point. I go into businesses, organizations, nonprofits, and have the opportunity to do a presentation that we'll talk through a little bit more today. But when I first get up there, I do a couple of fun things. I usually bring like a jar of peanut butter

and put it on a table or on the podium or hold it up. And I ask everyone, hey, when you see this jar of peanut butter, what do you think? Like, what's the first thing that comes to mind? So play along with me, pretend I'm holding a jar of peanut butter. What do you guys have to say about this jar of peanut butter?

What's your immediate response or reaction? Sticky? I don't know. Yeah. How about you, David? I think it's peanut butter. I don't know. I don't really have any other thoughts than that.

That's awesome. Well, when I hold up that jar of peanut butter, I get a plethora of answers, whether it's, well, peanut butter is hazardous to my kids' health, so we don't have peanut butter in our home. Or you get an answer of like, oh, peanut butter, I have so many nostalgic feelings about it. I used to, you know, my dad would always give me

a spoonful of peanut butter before I went off to soccer practice, or, you know, and then you have, you know, just the conversation evolves into, oh, you know, only jelly, only honey, white bread, brown bread, crunchy, creamy, you know, jiffy, skippy, all of those conversations that end up happening around a single jar of peanut butter. Now, I love using the jar of peanut butter

throughout the presentation because it's actually good for a lot of different illustrations. But one, it breaks the ice and it's kind of funny and gets people laughing. But secondly, then it gives me the opportunity to address this very thing, David, because when we hear about personality tests or sometimes people's initial blush with the enneagram,

it's not positive. It can conjure up negative feelings like, oh, peanut butter has bad memories because we were so poor that all we could have is peanut butter and jelly and that's all I had throughout my childhood and I can't stand the smell of peanut butter. So we could have negative experiences with something that is actually very neutral. There's not really, peanut butter is neither good nor bad. And I think a lot of times,

it just depends on our experience with it. So just like you encountered David, someone put you in a box, and they assigned you a personality. They used it as a weapon, a kind of behind your back to leadership. And then even like used as a bully in front of you to to peg you and put you in this personality box and it it didn't feel good and it definitely

tainted your experience. Does does that ring true for you when it comes to Enneagram now that I've kind of put it in that light with peanut butter? Well, yeah, I mean, like I said, I kind of got over it, but I hadn't really thought about it much since that had happened, except that I'm not generally a fan of these things. And, but I took it, you know, preparing for the show today and I found that, okay, you know, it's been 20 years, get over it Sparky.

But also I'm doing this for my own benefit and I do think though that I'm not alone in feeling a little like on defense when these things show up. But at the same time, you know, the realization I had is like don't be silly, if this stuff can help you be better at what it is you do or make your life easier,

then there's probably good reason to give it a try. Absolutely. Another question for you, David. This is funny and I have a point. Do you remember the first GPS system that you used? What was it? The one that you finally got in the car? Yeah, one of those that you used? What was it? You know, the one that you finally got in the car? Yeah, one of those that you stuck in the window of the car.

Yeah, a Garmin. I mean, we used Ryan McNally maps until that point, right? I mean, I remember trying to figure out which way to hold it. Yeah, well, in Southern California, Thomas guides Reign Supreme when I was growing up. When you got your license, my dad gave me a box of maps and said, good luck. That's how I got around. That's awesome. When I moved to Colorado Springs when I was 18, everyone just said,

keep looking for the mountains and you'll know that's west. But admittedly, it took a couple years before that actually helped me because it was just confusing. But I did find out that I missed those mountains when I moved to a new city in 2009 and there was no mountains to direct me. And so I was grateful that my father-in-law gave me kind of his hand-me-down garment or whatever that I could stick in the window.

But I do know my girls can testify to this. They're older teenagers now, but they joke about how many times I would have to turn around because I was lost. And they would, as a one-year-old and two-year-old, they were like, mom's lost again. And they would try not to get frustrated with me, especially when they were excited about wherever we were going and it was taking too long. But I asked that silly question because maps have definitely evolved. Our directions are now able to be found on our phone and directions are now able to be found on our phone and at the easy ready. One of the things that I like to liken the Enneagram to

is that it's an internal GPS system. It's kind of an inner mapping system that helps you understand how to take action so you go into a line of health. And it also gives awareness when you're going the wrong direction or when you're going into a stressful pattern of behavior. So that's, if we kind of think of the Enneagram as more of a directive in understanding our internal mapping system, super helpful. The Enneagram also, just to give kind of a somatic understanding is that enia, it's E-N-N-E-A,

if no one's heard of or seen the word eniagram before, that part of the word means nine in Greek. And then gram just represents a diagram or a drawing. So the eniagram is identifying nine different personality types. And what you can Google up on the internet is that it's outlined by a diagram of like a nine pointed shape

that just shows the circle of the different personality types. The Enneagram also, and I mentioned this before, but it's a typology system that explains why we do what we do. Whereas a lot of them, including Myers-Briggs and Disks and even new tools like Six Working Genius, kind of tells us what we do. But the Enneagram helps them identify the why. And again, I've said this before, but it clarifies your starting point so it doesn't become your stuck point.

CB What I find fascinating about the Enneagram, and you can tell me if this is a little bit off base, Amy, but most of these assessments, you take the test, you answer the questions, and it tells you definitively, this is what you are. And that sounds like your experience David. But every time I've looked at the Enneagram, I get the results and it's basically, you might be this one. It seems like you're presented with the interpretation of your answers to the tests and presented a type. And these are the different things about this type. Does that resonate with you? Is that the right way to approach this?

I think this is a great question. I like to liken the discovery process of your personality type as trying on a new item or different items of clothing. And so the nine types gives us nine different pieces to try on. And so sometimes the quizzes are like, when you go to the store and you take an item to the fitting room, you put it on and I don't know,

the mirror's magical, the lighting's good, and you're like, ooh, this is it. And then you take it home. And when you're looking in the mirror and you've paired it with your other favorite clothing, it just doesn't fit the same way, or it doesn't fit as good as you initially thought. And so I believe that the Enneagram process

or discovery process of our dominant type is a little bit like trying on different types of clothing is at first, especially when it's on the hanger, when you're first reading about the type, you're like, oh yeah, that could be me, that's probably me. But I always encourage my clients and my community to take a type and try it on for a while. So maybe your quiz did come out as an eight or a two.

And you go, oh yeah, that could be me. I could see some of those things. But as you dig a little deeper, you read more about it, you take note of your actual motivations and you explore a little bit what are my desires and what is the longing that my heart wants to hear? Is it really in line with this number that came out on a quiz? Or is there something a little different? Because we take these quizzes

and we're likely sitting in a distinct environment. We're either sitting at work because we're a little bit bored or we're at the park with our kids and we're done taking pictures of them and looking at them swing on that swing and so we take a quiz or you know whatever it is our environment that we're in when we answer those questions we might answer a little bit differently when the Enneagram actually

invites us to look at the whole of our lives and see what consistently we've, how we've been motivated and consistently how we communicate and how consistently we make decisions because life shapes us, our culture shapes us, our family of origin shapes us. And so the Enneagram can over time, if utilized well and as a true self-discovery tool, it can better help us identify who we were created to be before the world told us who we needed to be. And that's the use and the beauty of the Enneagram, but it can take a little while to land specifically on your dominant type that really does resonate with you

and reads your mail and makes you feel a little uncomfortable, but also helps you feel seen. And you're like, oh oh yeah, that's me. Yeah, that's the interesting thing about the results with the Enneagram. So mine is an eight and I've taken it a couple times. I took it a few years ago, I actually found the results and I got a big long PDF on it.

But then I also took the quiz that you have on your website, Amy. And I got the same result each time. And you start reading through it and you're like, yeah, that's me. That's awesome. And then it gets into some of the weaknesses and you're like, oh, yeah, that's also me. Exactly. Yes. I think it should step on our toes a little bit, make us a little squirmy or cause us to want to hide and hope that no one else knows this about us? And I think those, those honest reactions are probably good indicators that you've landed

on the right type. Yeah. One of the things I liked about my result was it gave me multiple possibilities and it was fun to sit and think about the friction points between them, right? So if you've got two personality types that stand out from these questions, where do they rub together and then reflect on that in your own life and think, well, that may be true

because there are points I have difficulty where it is these two traits are rubbing together. They're all necessarily fully compatible, I guess I'd say. Yeah, I think that's a great way to look at it. And I do love the process where you're comparing different types to figure out which one best fits you. So if somebody is interested listening to this,

where should they get started trying to get an idea what Enneagram thinks about their personalities? When someone comes to my community for the first time, usually on social media, I like to ask them, do they know their type? And then how do they best enjoy learning? Is it podcasts or reading? What's their preferred version of that? And from there, I encourage them. Of course, I've created a lot of resources that

fit both the reader and the podcast listener. And so I say it's better to learn about the types and learn about all of them before even taking a quiz. Of course, I've created a quiz because people want fast results. And so I take people through the process of finding their quiz and then they have the opportunity if they want a follow-up email,

they can sign up for it with more results and then obviously like recommendations to read more or resources to be able to learn about all of the nine types. But I think at first it is a great idea to read about it or listen about all of them and then go ahead and take the quiz. And so that way you can maybe better try on the results that you got and see if it truly aligns with you or if you were thinking something different as you heard stories or even typical character traits of certain types that maybe resonated more than what your quiz results do. CB I remember reading through, I think it was Ian Morgan Cron's The Story of You. And it was basically just a typical nonfiction book

where it went through the different types. And I kind of expected it to be like an assessment at the beginning and then channeling down you specific paths, but it was really just what you were describing. Here's all of the different types and how they, the strengths, the weaknesses, all that kind of stuff. And I do think that that was really helpful going through that prior to taking the, the, the, the test. I'm curious though, if you have any other resources that you would point people to who want

to learn more about this. And then I would also like to dive into some of these results that I got as an example, just so we could talk about what people would actually do with this stuff. But before we get there, I guess, do you have any other resource recommendations? KS Yeah, Ian Morgan-Cron and Suzanne Stabele wrote the book, The Road Back to You, and that came out I think in 2016. So it's a classic. It gives a very generalized broad terms about all nine types, but you can find all about the Enneagram in that resource. Your Enneagram coach is well known and they take a faith-based perspective on the Enneagram

and they have tons of resources, books, podcasts, a quiz as well. And then of course, you know, the Simply Wholehearted podcast, which I know you guys well. And then of course, you know, the simply wholehearted podcast, which I know you guys will link to and all of that. And I have playlists for people to learn more about the different types, or if they're just learning about the Enneagram for the first time, that can be a great place to begin.

Awesome. So let's talk about, you know, you get your, your results because you took one of these, these assessments. What do you actually do with this? So I'll just kind of talk through the Enneagram 8 resource that I got after taking your quiz, which I thought was great. It's a single one-page PDF and it encapsulates this really well. And I actually got more out of that than the 50-page PDF from the one I took a couple years

ago. So here, you know, it's talking about Enneagram 8's direct, assertive, wow. Oh, awesome. That's great. So here, it's talking about any grandmates, direct, assertive, big-hearted, confrontational, and opinionated. Talks about, I value being strong, honest, dependable, straightforwardly approaching important issues. I like strength and direction in others. I can usually tell when someone's not telling me the truth.

I'll protect innocent people, especially when an injustice has been done, yet I have trouble tolerating weaknesses in others. If I don't agree with those in authority or no one's taking charge. I'll step in and take control. I find it hard to keep my negative emotions to myself. I'm usually ready to defend those I care about deeply. And then you get into the core fear, the core desire, the core weakness, the core longing. Okay, so I think probably, maybe depending on the type, but also other aspects of your personality, you could

probably focus in on, well, this is the thing I'm really good at and ignore a whole bunch of it. Or you could focus in on, this is the thing I'm really bad at and ignore a whole bunch of it. So you get these results. How would you encourage someone to move forward from this?

What do you do with this information? I think it's great to start at what you don't do with it. So I have four tips real quick. Don't use your results or someone else's results to put you or others in a box. That's really important, right? Just kind of going back to the story that David had. It was like put in this box of like, is this bad?

Is this good? It's an I told you so moment. That doesn't feel good. So also don't use the results as a sword or a shield. You don't wanna use it as a weapon or as kind of the next idea, the third point is don't use it as an excuse for poor behavior. It's so sad when people go, oh I'm just an enneagram blank,

that's why I'm doing this, or that's why I continue to repeat this poor behavior. That is, you know, it's never a license to be unkind or to stay stuck in something that is not beneficial to yourself or others. And then last but not least, I encourage even though I use the Enneagram with teams and nonprofits and organizations, do not use the Enneagram as the only way to assign work roles, tasks or partnerships. So just because your personality type tends to take on roles of authority and leadership,

it doesn't mean you always have to be the boss or the CEO or the manager, the one in charge. Just as other personality types who tend to come in as a more supportive role and behind the scenes, doesn't mean they can't lead the company or be the one calling all the shots. So those are kind of the first things of like, this is the best way to not use Enneagram. Does that make sense? AC Yeah, I like that a lot. CB I really like the point you make that this idea that this is a static definition, you can change. And I've seen people who do, I guess I'd say they accept a negative personality trait that they have and just say,

well, that's the way I am. Sorry, I'm just going to be a jerk. And I think that's such a cop-out. It is. And again, it breaks my heart when people do that. And actually, I write a weekly email to my community and I was just writing today to them about how there's been a lot of times when I make that initial conversation with a new community member that they come in with this sad tale about how either they, how they feel about their type in a very negative light or how others assigned negativity to their personality. And one, it breaks my heart because I think we should be celebrating the unique diversity

that these nine types represent. But kind of to that point, David, where they're just like, well, I guess I'll always be this way. I always have to be critical and want to fix things and I'll never be satisfied when things are imperfect. And I'm like, no, don't use it that way. There is a better way. So kind of to that point, a lot of what I do is not only

giving the understanding about the why we do what we do, but I love to celebrate what that personality type brings to the table, why they're important, and it's valuable to show up as the healthiest version of themselves. That every person is invited to do the work, again, to identify those maladaptive behaviors, so their starting point doesn't become their stuck point. And they can utilize the internal GPS of the Enneagram to go, oh, what are my blind spots? What is the direction of stress?

And in the coaching process, and that's why I think it's really important to take a tool like this, whether it is Myers-Briggs or, you know, StrikeFinder, Six Working Genius, all of those different things, and find someone or find a process that teaches you not only why you do what you do, but what you can do about it.

What are the simple steps of transformation? The beauty is if we allow ourselves to be read by the information and we really read it and take time to learn and assess where we find ourselves, I think knowledge is 90% of the battle. I think once we have knowledge, we can make a choice to do something different or to be aware of how certain patterns of behavior are not serving us. And we can choose to engage differently with others. If we're a really fast person and we tend to fire aim ready, we can over time learn to ready aim fire. And if we're a person who tends to get stuck

in the aim phase or the ready phase of projects, we can also learn how to make sure we're taking faster action and getting help from those who can speed us along and put accountability in our life and purposely plan out habits like Sean has us do that we can go that upstream practice. It's a little bit hard, but we can find ourselves in a lot of strength that we can offer those in our home and our family and at the workplace and really the world around us in long-term. This episode of the Focus Podcast is brought to you by Indeed.

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sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash focused. Just go to indeed.com slash focused right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on the Focus podcast. That URL one last time, indeed.com slash focus. Go check it out. Terms and conditions apply. Do you need to hire? You need Indeed. And our thanks to Indeed for their support of the Focus podcast and all of Relay FM. All right. So in the last section, Amy, you were talking a little bit about how you can use the results from the Enneagram to consider how you engage with projects and other people. And I feel like that kind of leads us naturally into a discussion about how this kind of stuff

can help with working with a team. So this doesn't just have personal application. How does this benefit your working relationships as well? Ah, that it is so deep and wide. I love it. I love talking about this. I love working with teams. I mean, I love working with individuals, but put me in a room of people who are there to, who are eager and hungry to learn and how to do things better. It's, it is so much fun.

and hungry to learn and how to do things better. It is so much fun. But what I typically do is I start out with a team and we go through the Enneagram out of the box process that I have created and even trademarked officially. And that's typically a 90 minute session with teams. And it's very interactive and it's very engaging but I end up threading out with the individuals in the room to help them identify their communication pattern and then we talk about their decision making styles. Then we put it all together and we come up with the nine different types of the Enneagram and so people are getting that opportunity instead of just taking a quiz or having to hear all the details about all nine types, I've taken different, I've basically reverse engineered, which I love to do and totally nerd out on all sorts of things, but I reverse engineered the

process to be able to chunk it down to bite-sized pieces and people to explore more about themselves in these little bits. And then we come together and put all nine types together. So that's a lot of what I do with teams initially. And then if I get the privilege of coming back with them, it can be a multi-day, multi-hour, can be retreat sessions or a team this spring. We met on Zoom every week for five weeks to go through all the process, but we talk even more about communication and how to work better together,

how each style conflicts, but then what they can do in order to compromise and come up with better, healthier solutions for the whole team. Then we even go into feedback, how each person, meaningful feedback specifically, but how each person receives feedback, how they tend to give it,

what does it look like to do a better job of both receiving and offering feedback. So that way it's not just a top-down, but it's an entire group and actual team process of feedback. So anyway, it's a lot of fun. It's super beneficial. The teams that I've gotten to work with have just a, you know, they love it. They've learned from it. They get team maps and all that sort of thing to be able to review and give them some steps to be able to take it into future meetings and even form some of their teams so that way there's not just like one dominant personality

type in certain teams that they all learn to give each other a seat at the table, an opportunity to speak up, especially there's just some types that tend to speak up a lot more than others. And so there's a lot we can learn from those different things. Yeah, I've always done that when I'm in meetings with groups, because there's this assumption that the person who talks the most has the best ideas. And I'm always looking for the person in the corner not talking and looking for ways to engage them.

Because I feel like the group gets often some of its best ideas out of the people who are hesitant to open their mouth. I agree. Do you mind giving us an example of some of the communication stuff? And maybe we could even use David and myself as an example. I don't know if that's a good idea or a bad idea, but you know, I'm, I'm an eight David, you mentioned, if that's a good idea or a bad idea, but you know, I'm an 8. David, you mentioned you took the assessment and yours was a 5. I guess maybe if you wanted to explain,

Amy, how you might coach an 8 and a 5 who are working together, how to communicate better, how to offer feedback just as an example maybe. Yeah. Okay. so this will be perfect. I'll give a quick summary and rundown of the three communication patterns. I'll talk about the two of yours and what I would say if we could teamwork or workshop about your two types. So the three communication patterns, they're also called enneagram stances.

For anyone who likes to nerd out, that's the proper phrase is enneagram stances and it just identifies the way people move with others and their natural inclination and communication style. So the first one is the withdrawn and the withdrawn tends to create distance from others. Then there's the dutiful types and they come alongside others. And then you have the assertive types and they actively engage others. So the withdrawn creates distance, dutiful comes alongside, the assertive actively engages.

Now if David's a five and you're an eight, David would fall under the withdrawn stance. So their tendency is to create distance from others. And when I'm doing a presentation in person, I actually use open triangles. And I use this because you can do some fun things with your hands. You kind of laugh at yourself doing it. But the symbol also demonstrates the direction that someone goes. But for you, Mike, you're in assertive stance and you actively engage. So you're going, constantly going towards and David's going to tend to go away and withdraw. So when you're in communication, whether you're making a decision or you're even just spending time as friends or working on a project, David's initial reaction is going to tend to be to

want to have a little space to think about, to consider, to decide on their own independently and probably gather more knowledge and do some more research before he's gonna make a decision. Whereas you, Mike, you're going to take quick action. You're going to instinctively and intuitively just know that you must respond. And you have this desire to get the answer from David and to make a quick decision because that's your natural inclination.

Whereas David's thinking, I just need some more time. I want thoughtful consideration. So I mentioned this before because communication, the three communication stances can be related to these three phrases. The withdrawn, the goal is ready, aim, fire. But the withdrawn tends to go ready, ready, ready, ready, aim, fire.

And the assertive on the flip side tends to fire, aim, ready. Is this true of your experience? It is for me. How about you, David? Yeah, I guess sometimes. Interestingly, on my test results, five was the highest, but there were, I got five tick marks for that, but there were, there were three others that I got four tick marks for.

So I'm not sure. Do you remember what they were? I put them in the document here. Type five is, I got five on and then two, seven and nine, I got four. So I don't know, I'm kind of an oddball. We all are and that's the good thing. We're all a snowflake, we all have different combinations and it's good.

Yeah, I think it'd be worth you considering what is more true of you. To give a quick, you know, just like, we're gonna go personal on you, so our friends who are listening, try to engage with us. I know I'm using numbers, but for instance, type five has the most dash marks, if you will, the highest score, and that would indicate

that with the drawn type, more tending to go that way. And then the nine also has that same pattern. They tend to withdraw because they're looking for a sense of balance and peace, and they're usually wanting to avoid disruption, and that's what causes them to retreat. And then you have the seven, who that personality type is similar to Mike's

with that assertive. So they tend to take action fast, they're thinkers, but, and so they can still be prone to overthinking, but they tend to fire aim ready. I guess I would say for me, that's an accurate, the type five is probably accurate for big decisions. When it's a big decision, I take my time with it. Yes, and you have lived enough life

to have practiced taking action better, maybe even out of unknowing coaching from either colleagues or those in charge or even parents going, come on, David, I need you to make a decision, make it a little faster. And so over time, also as you've grown more confident in the knowledge that you already have, you might feel better about making faster decisions. talk about making faster decisions. Yeah, maybe, I don't know.

You might need to think about it. I can definitely say that your interpretation of my communication style is accurate. And I can also look back not just on my interactions with David, but just my interactions with people in general and see how my preferences. And again, the aggressive style coupled with the, you know, the, the, the type eight, you know, I tend to push for getting things and specifically communication happening my way. And again, that's not the that's not necessarily good or bad. It's bad if I just steamroll people and don't let them process things if that's not the way that they're wired. But understanding the preferences and then finding middle ground, I think is probably the way that we really work with this. Spot on. Because once we know we tend to be a bull in the China shop, it's better to just know that we're going to have to

step a little more carefully and go a little slower. And we still might be a bull in the China shop, but we could have less destruction in our wake. Yeah. Yeah. And then also I think that that's important with the feedback piece. This kind of reminds me of the book Radical Candor by Kim Scott. And I've had some experience with Radical Candor, kind of like David's experience where people used it. And it's kind of like, that's not the way that it's supposed to be used. That word doesn't mean what you think it means to quote the princess bride. And I think it's really important for me not just when I'm communicating but when giving feedback specifically

that I am really considering the way that the feedback can be received if I want it to land and have a positive impact. 100%. It's such a helpful tool for our relationships across the board, really. So how would you go about encouraging someone, we can pick on me, you know, I'm going to give feedback to a type five, because just because that's like polar opposites in terms

of the stances. It is. How would you advise me to give feedback to someone like that? Yeah, a lot of what I teach throughout the sessions is to realize our typical reaction and how we can pause just enough so we can fatfully and intentionally respond instead of just react. And that is very challenging for a type 8. Between being in the gut triad, which is the decision-making process, and then the assertive stance, which is the communication pattern, there's just like

quick, you take quick action. And so it's really important no matter if you're working with opposites or even those like you, is to slow down a little bit and to engage more of your head in the process. And you're really great at being logical and focused and that's really what this all is built on and learning and researching really, really well, which can be a superpower and a strength

when an eight harnesses. So it's important to your initial reaction might not be the right assumption and it may not be the right course of action. So it's learning to go a little bit slower, taking time to research what was that other person's motivation? Is their behavior actually need to be corrected or is it just different than mine? And is it my opinion or is it actually a

justice or fairness indifference that I need to speak to and that I need to make sure that I write if there's a wrong happening. So some of those just like going a little bit slower can go a long way for the NERM-8. And it's hard, the eight tends to think they're right and they will say because they normally are. But the eight, you know, realizing that they're human, they're prone to mistakes too,

and that maybe their first initial, again, their first initial assessment of the situation may not be 100% correct. They slow a little bit longer to find out the true or full story can really help in engaging with others, whether, again, whether they're the same, a similar personality type or completely opposite. All right, Amy, we always like to end the episode

talking about what books we've been reading and what we're enjoying. So we're gonna put you on notice, we're gonna ask you about that in a minute, but why don't we give you a little time? Mike, you wanna go first? Sure. I just finished a book, Good Work by Paul

Millard. This is the second book by Paul and he was the one who wrote The Pathless Path, which I think, I don't think we did a whole episode on it, but it definitely came up in conversation. Yeah. It was instrumental to me quitting the day job, going independent as a creator. So I just recorded the bookworm episode for this one yesterday. And it was really interesting because I just launched Life HQ. That launch went great. And I'm in a very different place on the journey than I would have been even six weeks ago. And so it was a fascinating read about really doing work that matters. And spoiler alert, I guess I really enjoyed this one. So did Corey, which is interesting because he's a professor. And if you were to compare like traditional path versus

non-traditional path, we're kind of two different, two different ends of that spectrum as well. But he got a lot out of it too. and I would recommend this one for just about anybody I think it very much is in line with the whole theme of focused You know life is more than than cranking widgets and it's really about Finding the the work that you are are meant to do and doing it doing it Well doing work that that matters and sort of designing the life that you wanna live. So, would definitely recommend this one. All right, that one's on my list now.

I'm continuing, I've got a big work project I'm doing on, so I have the Oliver Bergman book looking at me. I've read the introduction. I mean, it's interesting, the new Oliver Bergman book is meant to be a daily reader. So I think I may do it that way, but not yet, because I'm going to wait till I finish this work project. I'm continuing to play with the letters on ethics

from Chicago Press by Seneca. But I thought on the book thing, I would note that I seem to be gifting a lot of books lately. Over the last few months, I read both the Boys and Men and The An the anxious generation, which are books about, in a lot of ways, dealing with teenagers and children and social media and just modern challenges that kids are facing. And it leads me to the conclusion it's a lot harder to be a kid today than it was when

I was back in the day. I still am thankful that there was no social media when I was young. I would cringe to think of some of the things I probably would have done with it. But, but it is a thing now. So I've been giving it away to several friends who have children kind of in the right age range. And I don't know if I'm becoming insufferable to these people or not, but I am definitely on the move

of trying to make some change there. I had a visitor over the weekend. We had some family visiting and my, a family member, and he asked me, his daughter, who's 14, wants to get on TikTok. He's not sure. And I said, no, just tell her no, tell her. In the Philippines, they call uncle Tito.

I said, just tell her that it's Tito's fault and she's not allowed on TikTok. And then I sent him a copy of the anxious generation, but it just seems like a thing I'm doing a lot lately with books. I'm not sure why but I'm I Can't get my head out of that topic Well on the topic of gifting books I like to do this as well and I

will look for people who will actually read a book that I've enjoyed and If I if I feel like they're going to read it, I will gift them a copy. I never loan out my books because then I don't have to keep track of which ones I've gotten back. But I will happily give a book to somebody with a life-changing idea in it if they are going to receive it and just buy another copy for myself. How about you, Amy, what are you reading? Yeah, I love gifting books and I also get a ton of books because I've been a podcaster for so long. So I typically have a few going at once,

but for work specifically, Mo Banel came up with a new book called Give to Grow, which I devoured quickly and it was written very succinctly and in a way where you could as a busy business owner, you could just plow through it. It was excellent. It reminded me to go back and revisit his first book Snowball System, which is a little bit heftier but has a lot of structure and systems and I just like

his approach to business and the way he has gone about building his community and serving those around him and so while we have different kinds of businesses I I've really appreciated his work and enjoyed that just his teaching. I have the the snowball system on my bookshelf. I'm looking at it right now. If you were to recommend one of those, is that the one to start with? Because that one came first, correct? It did kind of go first, but I had a harder time reading that. And that's why I'm enjoying going back to read it, because I'm appreciating the system more that I get kind of the big picture, if you will, that give to grow. I think give to grow is the energizer that you need to put the system in place.

CB. Gotcha. Okay. All right. Well, thanks for coming on the show today, Amy. If people want to connect with you, learn more about what you do, where should they go? I would love to get to meet them and they can find me a couple ways. Simplywholehearted.com has all the free resources that I offer, my quiz, podcasts, and all of that. And then I also am on Instagram and it's Wholehearted Enneagram on Instagram. And I like to do funny posts about Enneagram types, but I also do serious things, and you can get quick snapshots of the podcast that I do as well to see if it's something

you wanna listen more to. All right, we are the Focus Podcast. You can find us at relay.fm slash focused. Thank you to our sponsors, indeed, in Squarespace. For the deep focus listeners, stick around. We're gonna be talking about teenage communication problems. And well, I guess we'll call it

teenage communication patterns, sorry. My head, it was problems, Amy, but it's patterns. So we're gonna talk about that, otherwise, we'll see you next time.