Focused - 224: Chasing Valuable Rabbits, with Chenell Basilio

Episode Date: February 26, 2025

Welcome to Focus, a productivity podcast about more than cranking widgets. I'm David Sparks and joined by your friend of mine, Mr. Mike Schmitz. Hey, Mike. Hey, David. How's it going? I'm doing very well. Thank you. It's always fun to be talking about focus related topics with you and the audience and we got

a friend with us today. Yes, we do. Welcome to the show, Chanel Basilio. Hey, thanks for having me, guys. Absolutely. So Chanel is someone that I met at Craft and Commerce. Initially, it seems like I meet a lot of really cool people at Craft and Commerce. So, David, you're definitely going to have to get there this year. But Chanel gave a talk and I honestly, you know, I've seen so many talks that I've forgotten

that yours was actually one of the more impactful ones that I had seen when I was there because you talked about how, you know, you had this creator journey and things were clicking and then all of a sudden, you know, things got hard and you realize that, you know, you needed other people in your corner. And I thought that that would there's a whole bunch of focused topics in there. But then as I started to dig into what you do, Chanel, you've got this awesome newsletter called Growth in Reverse, where you kind of deconstruct how people have done things. And at the beginning of your talk, you share a figure of how many minutes in the last year and a half you had spent doing deep dives.

Do you remember what the figure was? It's something like 100,000. I don't remember, to be honest with you. It was a lot. And I realized when you shared that, like the amount of focus that it takes to do these deep dives, like that's perfect fodder

for this podcast. So we had to have you on. But just so people get a feel for who you are, what you do, how would you describe yourself and what you do on the internet? Sure. Thanks again for having me. Essentially what I do now is I reverse engineer how top creators grow their newsletters. So I'll find someone who's built their newsletter to 50,000 or more email subscribers. And then I go back into the archives and listen to all of the interviews they've done, go back into the Wayback Machine, which is like a fun internet tool, and try and figure out how they grew their audience, whether it was through social media or collaborating with other people. And then I write these long form deep dives, as I call them.

They end up being three to five thousand words long. And then I publish on those every week, well, most weeks, and then send that out to the newsletter audience. So yeah, it's going super deep on one specific creator and then, um, just hitting publish for everyone else to read it. So that's kind of the main thing at this point. I've been in the internet space for probably almost a little over a decade at this point, um, but wasn't actually publishing anything in public, if you will, until December of

2022, when I started growth or reverse. So how did you get into this? What intrigued you about doing these deep dives and how did you get to the point where you decided this was the thing that I wanted to share with the world? So I kind of stumbled into it, as with most things I've done. Um, so I had been in the online space for a while, found Pat Flynn from Smart Passive Income

back in 2013, I think it was. And I found this episode of his podcast where he was talking to this guy named Glenn Alsop. And he was essentially telling Pat how he builds websites to make money on the internet and rank hiring Google to make money with this thing called affiliate marketing. And I was just like, mind boggled, like had never heard anything like this before. So I ended up starting my own website about how I was paying off my student loans. And in that process found a bunch about like search engine optimization, SEO.

And yeah, was figuring out how to rank my own site higher. This was in 2014 by this point, I think. And then essentially went to my day job and was like, hey guys, we're not doing anything with this topic. And I worked at AAA at the time. It's like the roadside assistance company. And so I was helping them with their website and like just small marketing projects.

And they were like, cool, why don't you take on the SEO role? And I was like, what? This is crazy. So did that for a while. And then their paid ads guy left. So it was like Google search at this point. So all the ads that show up at the top of a Google search result. And he left and they're like, cool, you do the other stuff, like the organic side of things. Why don't you take on the paid ads? And they have like a budget of like over a million dollars a year. And I had never run a paid out of my life. And they're like, yeah, here you go. Here's the login.

And I was like, uh, guys, like I've never done anything like this before. Um, so this is long story short, I ended up, uh, figuring that out and started taking on clients on the side of my day job. Through building that personal finance blog, I had met a bunch of people in that space and they had websites and they wanted to grow via Google Ads. And so when they figured out that that's what I was doing at my day job, both my worlds kind of like came together and they were like, whoa, can you help us with Google Ads?

And so I started getting clients on the side, left my day job in 2017, and then was helping clients with paid ads for four or five years until I kind of burned out as you alluded to and then found growth in reverse. I, end of 2022, I found this guy named Mario and he was making like 300 grand with his newsletter. I was like, what? This is crazy. So I don't know. I tend to go deep into rabbit holes.

And so I just researched his whole story, tried to figure out how he grew his newsletter because he was working by himself. So I was like, okay, this is crazy. So I spent like 60 hours writing this first deep dive. It actually wasn't a deep dive in the beginning. It was just me researching. And then I was like, wait, people might actually want to read this. So I threw it up on a website and I was like, hey, maybe I'll send out a newsletter about newsletters. And that's kind of how it all got started. I know that was a long backstory, but it all ties in. Yeah, but I mean, you really, it's so funny,

like listening to the AAA stuff, it's like, what a great laboratory to kind of learn this stuff on somebody else's dime, right? 100%. You go in and just start playing with the dials and then that leads to where you are now. I love those stories. Like you didn't really have a plan, right?

It just kind of happened. But you took advantage of opportunities. I think that's the difference. There's probably something to that, yes. You mentioned, I forget the date, but you were working at AAA and you were interested in SEO for your personal site. What was your personal site? And how did you get from that to, well, you kind of shared how you got from that to growth

and reverse. from that to, well, you kind of shared how you got from that to growth in reverse, but kind of to David's point, is this just the latest thing that you're curious about or is this the thing that, you know, I want to plant my flag here and be known for this on the internet? For the personal finance stuff? Is that what the original site was? And then I guess like, it sounds like you're constantly just testing things and trying things. So how do you, how do you,

how do you get to the point where this is the thing that I really want to be, be known for, or is it just your personality? Like this is what I'm doing right now and it's, I'm having fun with it. And I'm going to do it till I'm not having fun with it anymore. And then I'm going to, you know, pick up and move to something else, whatever, you know, I'm curious about. Yeah, I think it's the latter. I don't actually fun with it anymore and then I'm gonna pick up and move to something else, whatever I'm curious about. Yeah, I think it's the latter. I don't actually think of it necessarily that way, but that's how it seems to play out. So I had the personal finance site.

This was just like a side thing to help me figure out how to build a website, if I could make money on the internet like Glenn was. But yeah, it was about me paying off my student loans. So I went to Arizona State University. I graduated with about $72,000 in student loan debt. And so at this point, 2013, 2014, I had been out of school for four or five years. So I was paying things off and then stumbled into the world of Dave Ramsey. And I was like, hmm, I wonder if I could do this faster. And so I just started being more intentional about it.

And so that was very top of mind for me at that point in my life. And so I was like, maybe I'll just write a, create a website about how I'm paying this off. And so, like, Pat Flynn used to do these things called Ingram Reports, or he would share how much money he made every month. So I did debt reports.

So every month I shared how much I paid off, and where it went, and all that kind of thing. So yeah, it was just a different take on things. But I was having fun with it, it was helping me learn, and so I just kept going with it. How do you balance the, I'm having fun with this and I just want to learn with, um, now having a business and a big email list and people expecting a specific thing from you.

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely hard. Um, it's harder, I will say I still really enjoy doing the research. the research, but with more people on the email list, I think I've gotten into certain other things that I was like, oh, I should do this and that. And I don't know, almost forcing myself to be on social media more. And so that kind of led it to be less fun. So I talked about that in my 2024 recap, but this year I'm focused on just getting back be less fun. So this, I talked about that in my like 2024 recap, but this year I'm focused on just like getting back to the fun.

So I have this long list of people I want to write deep dives on, but I tend to find someone that week and I'll be like, whoa, they're doing this really cool thing and I want to learn about that. So then I, you know, go down that rabbit hole. So it's definitely a balance. But yeah, I mean, it changes over time. But I'm trying to get back to the fun of it this year.

You know, it's funny just on that point about social media, how people that are our online creators feel compelled, like social media becomes a job for them. And that, you know, I always question the veracity of that doesn't really make that much of a difference or is it just something that we do because we've been told we need to do that. It's a good question I think it varies with each person but I would say in the beginning of my newsletter that was definitely how I got started nobody knew what I was doing until I was posting on social.

So it definitely is helpful in the beginning, but I think over time it becomes less of a thing that you need to do as frequently. But yeah. Well, there's definitely people who take the untraditional approach and just kind of write it off. Like Cal Newport is the one that comes to mind for me, although I don't think you could say he's not on social media anymore because he's got a YouTube channel. So he talks on his,

on his show all the time about how he's just kind of delegated that to the people who understand YouTube and he's just going to keep, you know, making his, his focused stuff and they'll create these thumbnails and these titles to, to get it in front of people. But yeah, I feel like there's no, there's no formula for it, but you kind of have to find your own mix of, of what works and, and what doesn't. It kind of sounds like you've got that. What sort of experiments have you tried? Or maybe, you know, on the topic of social media, there's

some things that maybe you've done and they haven't worked. And how did you land on, you know, this is my approach and this is what I'm going to do and build systems out of it? Yeah, it's a good question. I don't, I wish I had better systems. I will say that. I think in the early days, I mean, Twitter and LinkedIn were kind of like the Wild West in terms of getting newsletter subscribers from social media. So it was a no brainer to do that. And it was like a great way to grow. But I think over time with just the way things have shaken out, the algorithms are changing. And so I think, like even now, I have the same size audience, essentially.

But it's much, much harder to get subscribers from those places unless you're willing to play the games of creating LinkedIn carousels and doing specific things every time you post. Like, I don't know. So I think it's gotten a lot harder, which makes me feel like it might be less of a strategy for a newer creator moving forward,

but I don't know, it still has value in some respects. And I met some great people on social media, so it's hard to say, like, completely write it off. But yeah, I think there's people on social media, so it's hard to say, like, completely write it off. But yeah, I think there's definitely something to it, but I think over time it just gets less effective. Yeah, and I'm not disagreeing. I think that social media can be a great place

to meet people of similar ideas and thoughts and have interesting discussions. It just, it feels to me like this general idea, oh, you gotta do social media. And it evolves, right? Like my audience kind of built personally before Twitter existed. So a lot of the stuff I have comes from before those days. So I was able to avoid some of the initial need for social media.

But now you look at today, and like you said, the platforms have changed. We don't have just one platform that everybody goes to, and I feel like people now coming up might have to look for alternative ways to find an audience. It's just, and I know I'm kind of off on a tangent here, but it is interesting to me the way all this stuff evolved so quickly.

Definitely, and it's funny, Mike, I know you mentioned YouTube being social media. I don't know that I consider it social media. Like I know it's a social platform, but I feel like it's a slightly different outlet. I don't know. I have way more fun watching YouTube videos and that kind of thing than I do

reading a Twitter thread necessarily. So it uh, it feels different to me, but I see where you're coming from. Yeah, that's, that's completely fair. Um, I guess we don't need to, to go too far down the, the creator business rabbit hole here, I guess, but for people who are interested in my approach to it, like YouTube is the primary platform that I use to promote the, you know, I make videos and then I offer a starter vault for people that they can download for free and then they get on my email list and I continue to send some obsidian related

emails and then when it's time to launch a product I pitch it essentially to the email list. So I'm not, you know, hey Life HQ is available on all the social media platforms. That doesn't really move the needle. So when I think of social, it's kind of like borrowed attention, but also the whole game that you have to play to borrow that attention is not one that I particularly enjoy. And I guess that's why I like YouTube better than the other ones is I can just make good stuff and then the people who are interested in good stuff on my topic,

hopefully I've done a good enough job that it rises to the top. This episode of Focus is brought to you by Indeed. If you're looking to expand your team this year, then join the 3.5 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job posting on other job sites and let Indeed's sponsored

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Maybe that leads into another topic here on the, with curiosity, because, you know, essentially what you're doing with growth and reverse, it sounds like is, uh, I'm going to build the things that I'm interested in. I'm kind of don't want to play the game. If I'm hearing you right you right. I would rather just, you know, do something really well, throw it out into the world. And then the people who are also interested in that are, are going to, to find me. Is that accurate? I think so. I didn't, I didn't really think of it that way,

but over time it's become more clear that that's the way it works out. Um, actually this, my mother-in-law told me this funny story recently. She was at a party and someone was, my father-in-law's friend was talking about rebar, the things you use to build houses with. And she was like, I do not care about rebar at all, but this guy was so passionate about it. She was like, I sat there listening to him talk

for like 15 minutes. And she was just like excited for him because of how excited he was about rebar. And so it's just like when you're so passionate about something, you're going to find people and you're going to keep people interested just based on how excited you are about the topic. I feel like that resonates with with me. I try to be super passionate about obsidian.

And it's kind of interesting. Exactly, that's the interesting thing about it. I've kind of joked about it because I live in a fairly small town in the middle of Wisconsin. And when I first started doing stuff on the internet, you know, I kind of thought that maybe people thought I didn't have a job because, you know, who does that? YouTube? What? What podcasts? What are those? And the internet was really where I found my people. You know, that's how I got connected with with David and a lot of the other people that have done things with online. It's simply because I found communities

which weren't in my same physical location where people were passionate and curious about certain topics and I just kind of joined the conversation. But it can be a little bit intimidating, I think, at the beginning. You kind of feel like, well, I'm the new person here. I don't really have anything to to contribute. You know, how how did you get over that?

I'm definitely an introvert. And I think I just had done so much research on this topic that people were like, OK, that's really interesting. So I put it out there. It was kind of like testing the waters. I just published it on my website that no one knew about. And then I sent it out. Like that first issue went out to four subscribers and one of them was my own email address.

So most people did not know about this in the beginning, but I think over time as I kept going, it just like started to find people based on getting shared. But through writing, like you don't necessarily have to talk to anybody or show anybody. It just lives on the internet, and if someone finds it, that's awesome. And I think that really helps me get started because I didn't have to go out there

and talk about what I was doing. It was more of me just following my curiosity and writing this long form piece. So it worked out well. I think if it would have been a video or something, I would have felt a little differently, but through writing, it's just easier to kind of hide behind your computer screen, if you will.

Sure. You mentioned following your curiosity. I wanna dig deeper on that a little bit. What does that look like? How do you actually do that? It's relevant for me because I'm in the middle of a cohort and we're teaching people this framework for collecting, developing, and creating something new

with these ideas that you tend to have. And I realize from working with people that there's a couple of traps that you can fall in with that. One is you just collect all this stuff and it sits in an archive somewhere and if you don't actually make something new out of it, I feel like it's real easy to get overwhelmed

by all the stuff that's just sitting in that app somewhere. I think this is kind of the problem with Evernote, to be honest. It's not really Evernote's fault, but it was really easy to get things in there and then people just kind of lost track of things and they had this big archive. But then also, you know, if you're gonna

make something out of it, there's a fine line there between this is something that I'm naturally curious about and I wanna learn more about and oh, shiny new object. So how do you stay focused on something long enough to chase that curiosity? It's a good question. I don't know, but I am definitely a digital hoarder. I know you alluded to that, like just keeping all of these things.

But it's definitely helped me over the years of being able to go back and like find things in the archive. But I don't know, I think you have to like almost give yourself a timeframe of being like, okay, for the next five days, I'm gonna go deep on this one topic and whatever comes out, whether you're a writer, whether you wanna make a YouTube video, whether you just wanna jot down some notes or have a conversation with someone about this topic,

I think through having that end frame or that end date, there's some natural tension that builds up that forces you to sit down and go through that topic. But it's hard to say, how do you start that? I feel like there's just some intuition or some push internally that would make you want to do that. So it's a hard question to answer. Well, I think you're hitting on an important point,

which is kind of like these forced constraints, right? It's not just open-ended and I'm gonna learn as much as I possibly can. That's probably how the first one, first one when you mentioned 60 plus hours, you're not, I'm assuming, putting in 60 plus hours every single week as you put together one of these things. You've got other things that you've got to do for your business and you kind of know now, you know, what's required in order to make this thing. But yeah, just putting an end date on something, I feel like, you know, it's got to be done by this particular time is important. And then also not putting pressure on,

well, this has to become the thing. So when I think of curiosity, I think of like kind of playing with your ideas. And I feel like that's kind of what you've done. You've just played with these different ideas, and they've opened up, you know, additional loops and you've chased rabbits, you know, we're kind of joking in the prep call about chasing valuable rabbits. Like how do you figure out which ones are actually worth, worth chasing? But you don't really know that till you, you do it a little bit. And then you can get some feedback and you can decide what's actually, uh, that's actually worth, worth doing. And I guess for me personally,

the thing I struggle with is I don't want to waste my time. I don't want to make mistakes. And that's sort of something that you kind of have to get over, isn't it? Definitely. I think, especially in the beginning, if you're not doing something like you're probably wasting time anyway, because you're just like delaying starting. And so if you would have just started and spent three weeks on the wrong thing, then you're still like three weeks ahead of where you would have been if you'd never started. So I think for sure you have to kind of give yourself that time constraint and or just

choose something and test it out and see what comes out. And if you don't enjoy it, you can always just go down a different rabbit hole, right? Find that valuable one eventually. But yeah, I think just getting started is kind of the big piece here. And again, like not everyone wants to be a creator and create or write or do a video or anything. But even if you're just like naturally curious and want to learn about something, I think there is something to be said about choosing a topic, going deep with it just for a short amount of time,

and then coming out and being like, well, I didn't really enjoy that as much as I thought. Let me move on to this other thing. But you also, I mean, your curiosity is unique. I mean, there's a lot of people who just kind of autopilot through life. And like I, in my old job, I had a lot of people that worked for me.

And finding an employee who would say, oh, I've been researching social media and I feel like we're not doing anything about it here. We should explore it further. That is rare. So you have this combination of curiosity and willingness to bring it into your daily life that I think is something you really get to share

with the world. And whether you want to create a big newsletter like Chanel or whether you just want to get better at what you do every day, whether you're working in a multinational corporation or whatever, that curiosity can serve you well. I think it's something everybody should endeavor to explore. 100% agree.

So how do you cultivate that curiosity, Chanel? A million dollar question. I mean, again, it's hard. I think it's different for everyone, but for me, it's just about, you know, choosing something, starting to research it. And if I enjoy it, great. If not, like there are plenty of started deep dives that I've abandoned because I wasn't enjoying them as much or I didn't think there was something of value for the reader on the

other side. So I abandoned them and then, you know, I was publishing one of these every Sunday, so it got to be Wednesday or Thursday and I'm like, oh no, like I haven't even figured out who I'm writing about. And so the next few days were interesting. But I think if you can just find what lights you up even just a little bit and just keep researching or going deeper and learning about that thing

and not being scared to let go of something you've spent a few days on already, I think is a big deal. If I would have kept writing some of those more boring ones, I don't think it would have served me or the audience and it wouldn't have helped me grow my newsletter as fast. So I think just leaning into what's really exciting to you and if you're not finding that pivot and just keep going.

I would add to that that I think curious thoughts are way more common than curious action. So if you're somebody who would like to grow that, catch yourself when you think of something that's a curious thought. Like, huh, I wonder how that works or I wonder if we could use this. And rather than just let the thought pass through your brain, write it down, find a little notebook, write it down, do something like do something to capture those curious thoughts. And I feel like that hopefully can lead you to action. But to me, that the whole thing is,

it's not enough just to be curious, you have to act on it. **Jade Lienkamp 100%. And that actually was the thing that stood up to me from what you just said there, Chanel. So first of all, like no judgment on the digital hoarder tendencies. I think that's everybody. The thing is, if you just collect these things and you never do anything with them, I feel like that's the point where things can get it can create this like mental overwhelm. Like I know I've got this somewhere. I have no idea, you know, what's in there.

I just know that I'm not getting what I want out of my notes and ideas. I feel like as long as you are collecting things and you are consistently moving something forward, that's the the key. You're doing something with it because that feedback loop opens up, you know, additional open loops and it makes it. I think it feeds your curiosity. So you kind of know like what's what's resonating and what might be useful for capturing new things as opposed to just, you know,

I'm going to capture all this stuff cause it might be important someday. But, uh, you, you talked about how, you know, you're working on something and it's not, you know, it's not coming together and being willing to let it go and, and grab the next one on the list and try something different. That was hard for me at the beginning. You know, I would have these ideas and oh my gosh, this is the best idea ever. Totally going to do this thing. And then you start doing it and you realize it's not really coming together,

but it's like, there's a sunk cost now that's, that's been applied to this project I've put in all these hours. I got to just see it through to completion. You know, that that's my own tendencies. You know, that's my own tendencies, you know, it's hard for me to overcome that. And I feel like the thing that, you know, makes it possible for me anyways to let things go, is just trusting that there's a system in place

that's gonna surface other ideas that maybe are better. So I don't have to be too attached to this particular one. How do you deal with that? Yeah, I mean, it's, I could feel the frustration in what you just said, because even just spending a couple of days on something, it can be very frustrating, especially when you start and you're so excited about that one topic. You're like, this is the thing. It's going to be so good. And then like three or four days and you're like, I'm already bored of this.

Like what? I can't find the angle. Like, I just want to change this. It's frustrating because you feel like you've wasted a bunch of time. But I mean, are you going to just continue wasting more time or do you just move on to the next thing? And it's not easy. That's definitely a hard pivot to make.

But I think it gets easier over time as you, especially after that first one that you let go and the next one is really good. I think it can be easier to do moving forward, but it's definitely a challenge. This episode of Focus is brought to you by Cleft. You ever feel like your brain's overflowing with ideas, but you find yourself staring at a blinking cursor? Does inspiration strike when you're away from the keyboard

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Cleft is available for free and the Plus Plan is affordable, so speak your mind and Cleft will collect your thoughts. Start capturing your ideas today and download Cleft. You can find it on the App Store or visit cleftnotes.com slash focused, F-O-C-U-S-E-D. That's C-L-E-F-T notes dot com slash focused F O C U S E D that's C L E F T notes.com slash focused. Our thanks to Cleft for the support of this show and all of Relay. Shanael, you had talked earlier about burnout and I know that's a topic that comes up often on the show, but I think it's something always worth exploring.

Tell us a little bit about your experience. that comes up often on the show, but I think it's something always worth exploring. Tell us a little bit about your experience. My experience with Burnout, yeah, it was after I had started taking on those paid ads clients, left my day job in 2017, things were going pretty good. 2018, 2019 kept growing the business. I think I was at least doubling it every year. So like my revenue would double. I was making more money than I had ever made.

And then COVID hit. So we're three years in now. I actually just looked back. So in 2019, I had made like four times what I made in my day job. 2020 hits. I was helping online creators, right? So everyone was home. People wanted to take online courses.

They were doing all this stuff. So my clients were seeing more desire for their products than they'd ever seen before. I was getting clients left and right because more people wanted to, they saw the opportunity and they just wanted to take advantage of it. So that year between 2019 and 2020, my business doubled. And so I had more clients, more work to do, and I did not know how to say no. And so I just kept working.

I think I had like 18 clients by myself, which is a lot. Like I wasn't, I don't know, like I had all the time, I was working for myself, but it just, at a certain point you don't have any more hours in the day. And so things went really, really well. And then they just slowly started to like fall apart. You know, the work wasn't getting done

the way it should have been. And I just didn't have enough time. And I just slowly like watched my business crumble. I think 2021 I went from, yeah, making $450,000 to $130,000. And then the next year I was down to $65,000. So like complete explosion of my business at that point. And so I was so burnt out and it was like, it was like watching a train in slow motion come at you. And I was just like, I didn't move.

I didn't do anything. Like I could see it falling apart, but I wasn't changing. I wasn't asking anybody for help. And it was just like mentally very hard. And looking back at it, it's like so clear, but like in the moment I was like, what is happening? Like I wasn't, I don't know, it was a wild time. And so after that, like, I just let go of that. I was like, I'm done helping clients with, with

paid ads. Like, I don't want to be on the other side of that. So it was challenging to like pull myself back up from that experience of like of going from leaving my day job to making six times what I was making and then back to what I was making in my day job within five or six years. So it was a long burnout process, but also a very short one. Yeah, that was a really hard time in my life. And honestly, I wasn't even telling anybody.

Nobody knew this was happening. Didn't tell, even my best friends had no clue that my business was falling apart because I just was, I was embarrassed. Like I was ashamed of the whole thing. And so yeah, it was just like a really weird time. Getting out of that was challenging. But yeah, I mean, in 2022,

then I found this whole newsletter space. And so it kind of came back. But yeah, that was a that was a rough period. Well, I mean, it's also a I feel like that you had a double whammy you had not only were you working really hard and burning yourself out, but you also had business problems. So it's like, you had to deal with two problems there. Burnout often happens during success, right?

But you've got the business winding down on you at the same time, which is no fun. Yeah, I mean, I think they went hand in hand. I was so burnt out, I wouldn't ask for help. I couldn't keep doing the work that I wanted to do, so then it just suffered. It's all related. It's just, yeah, it's hard to see in the moment

that it's all related. Well, I mean, and one of the things, and I don't know if this is the case for you, but I think a lot of times, when you overcommit and you start burning yourself out, it does kill the golden goose, because you're just not in the space to do it anymore and by taking on too much you're not really doing anything the way you want. And sometimes there's

a causal connection between the burnout and the reduction in business. So, I mean, this is real. I mean, people say, you know, it's too hippie, who cares, burnout, just do the work, but that's not true. When you run yourself too hard, you're unable to do the work. Yep, 100%. And I've heard people say it's not real, and I'm like, okay, sure. I don't know what happened then, but.

But yeah, it's definitely something people struggle with on a daily basis, I'm sure. Yeah, so that actually is something I wanted to, to double click on as you mentioned that your business was crumbling and you shared some, some specific numbers and, it that happened over a multi-year period. So you're looking at the numbers from running your business and you're obviously saying, you know, things aren't working.

And at that point, my personality would be, well, let's just work harder to make this happen. I'm assuming, you know, you weren't just cutting your hours in half or, you know, talk us through that process. How did you get to the point where, you know, I'm assuming you're still doing the work, but you're not getting the results.

And what was kind of the point of realization where you saw, you're like, this just isn't working anymore. Well, it's really funny because I didn't look at those numbers until I was making the slide deck for that talk you were mentioning at Craft and Commerce. So it's kind of what I figured. Yeah. I was so like, I knew it was not good, but I did not look at the numbers. Like prior to this, like I told you, I was in the personal finance space.

Like I was very invested in numbers. But after this happened, like around 2020, 2021, like I did not look. I didn't want to know. I felt like it was going to make it worse. And so I knew that my bills were getting paid and that's all I looked at. And that's like not a way to run a business, right? But in that moment, it was just too painful and too hard.

Probably should have been something, you know, I went to see a therapist around, but at that point I did not. So yeah, it's just kind of looking back is when I saw those numbers and I was like, wow, that really crumpled faster than I thought. So what was the day to day though? Like, and the reason I'm kind of pushing on this, I feel like is I have been in a little bit of a similar situation and I didn't really realize it was happening.

And it was just, well, I got to figure it out. And the way I'm going to figure it out is to work harder, even though I know that's not necessarily the right approach. You know, I would wake up in the morning and it's like, oh, time to get to work. And every waking moment, it's like, I have this feeling in the back of my head that the business isn't working yet so I better do something but you know all the research shows that if you just are constantly connected like that you're not going to do great work. So like what did that look like for you and your clients? You don't have to share specifics obviously but kind of just like what was the feeling and how did, how did it change your day to day in the moment?

So I think because I could tell that I was feeling super burnt out with everything, um, I started like looking for something else to do. So like, I still had clients, I was still doing all of that, but I didn't like, I wasn't sitting there trying to find new clients. I was trying to find something new to do. So I think I actually started a gardening website in 2021. Like we had moved to a new house and there was like an acre of property.

And I was like, yep, I'm enjoying this gardening thing. Just going to start writing about that. I still had a couple of clients on the side, but I was really trying to find a new thing. So I was spinning my wheels in another direction, but not making money with that necessarily. So I think I was just trying to distract myself, honestly. So the day-to-day definitely looked different,

but yeah, I wasn't not doing anything. I was just doing something different. Although in your defense, I would say maybe you were letting your curiosity roam again. Like you realized it was time to move on and you were trying things. And the Guardian website may not have been the thing that became your thing, but it was the thing that you tried. That's fair. Yep. And it was fun and it distracted me and, you know, it made a little money, but nothing crazy.

But yeah, I think I just like, in my head, I just like shut it shut down the idea that I was going to keep doing the client services stuff and just moved on. And I just like didn't look back. But again, I still had some clients, but it was just changing directions. When you work for yourself, I think it's really easy to fall into these traps where you just put your head in the sand over the business, right? Because there's nobody that you're accountable to. Like, you're not paying anybody else, so it doesn't affect them, but there's also nobody to say,

hey, Chanel, something's going on here. We should stop, you know? And I do think that is for people who work for themselves, whether they're a creator or they, you know? And I do think that is for people who work for themselves, whether they're a creator or they, you know, make jam or whatever, you know, you really do have to be wary of that trap. Yeah, for sure.

It's an easy one to fall into. And then how did you get out of that? Like how did you work through, overcome, insert adjective here? Was burnt out, am now not burnt out. What did that look like? I guess, yeah. So I did the gardening thing. It was cool.

Probably could have been really big if I would have stuck with it, but I naturally am just somebody who follows my curiosities until they're not curious for me anymore. So then I found the newsletter thing. And honestly, my wife at the time was like, really? Another project?

You're going to start something new? I was like, okay. And luckily, I found something that I am sticking with for the long run. But who knows if that's five more years, 10 more years, whatever, but it's just something that's been able to like, it naturally moves with how my brain works. So I'm able to like go deep on something for a week, leave it, and then move on to something different,

but it's still within the same topic. So I'm not like giving my readers whiplash essentially. But yeah, honestly, I think Growth in Reverse is probably the gardening website all over again, but it worked. I don't know if there's a playbook to follow there. It just happened to work out this time. What lessons did you learn from that experience? Having gone through the implosion of the business and burning yourself out,

what guardrails are you putting in place now? Yeah, definitely being more active with fellow people in communities or people just doing similar things to me. I think there is something to be said about surrounding yourself with people doing similar things. So, whether that's in a mastermind group or having calls with friends more regularly,

that is something I did not do much of when I was doing the client stuff. After a certain point, you feel like, well, I've been doing this for two, three years. I should know everything, right? So getting, being able to ask questions without fear of like, I don't know, looking dumb, if you will, was hard. And so I think that over time just got worse and worse. So now I'm like making a concerted effort to, you know, surround myself with more people, ask questions, just lead into that curiosity that I have, and not let myself feel like any question is dumb,

because I think we all have those kinds of things roaming around in our heads at any given time. So it's definitely not easy, but I'm trying to learn from those past mistakes that I've made. So you mentioned community and people a little bit there. How important is that in the process and how did you find your people? I would say it is the most important thing probably. You can sit there and write books and articles by yourself forever, but if you never get feedback and you never share them with anyone,

I mean, there's gonna be some things that you're not necessarily seeing, like blind spots, if you will. I think even just being able to talk through, like you mentioned I started a podcast recently and it's been awesome because I'm still talking about the same topics, but I'm able to speak them out loud instead of me sitting at my computer and writing about them solo.

So it's been really insightful to be able to throw ideas around and better formulate those ideas. I think people are just, they light you up. It gets you more excited about a certain project as well. So there's something to be said about just putting yourself out there, making sure you're actually having some social interaction. Yeah, I think that's, it's kind of one of the most

important things. You've got a podcast and you mentioned it's new, so I think if you are looking for community, the thing to do is not just go start a podcast necessarily. Yes, don't do that. Although I do think I agree, I get the same value out of podcasting with a co-host is talking through the ideas and that helps me make sense of things and helps me understand things at a deeper level. You've also got a community, which I'll give a plug for because I'm a part of it.

And I think, you know, you've created a place where people who are interested in growing their email list, essentially, maybe you would frame it a little bit differently, but that's, you know, I'm looking at the people that are there and the types of sprints that you're running and the conversations that are happening. I know that that's the place that I'm going to go if I'm going to want to talk about how to email this growth. But how, when you were, you know, just recognizing that I need some community, where did you go? Or maybe a different version of this question if you want, it's

kind of like if you were to, you know, if you're listening to a podcast like this and you're deciding, you know, I want to start getting involved, like where would you point people? How would you go about finding your people? I think that's a good question. What I did, and like looking back,

it was kind of random, but seems to be a good way to go. Like if you're listening to a podcast or you're reading someone's articles and they have something like a community or even just the comment section on YouTube where you can meet people, I think there is something to be said about following those people into their community. So I joined J. Klaus's community. This was back in 2022. So before I had actually started Growth in Reverse, but I had been following Jay's work on his podcasts.

He'd been on, I guess, on some other people's podcasts I enjoyed, and I just liked his ethos and the way he thinks about work and life. And so I think there's something to be said about finding those people that you resonate with and joining their stuff, because they naturally attract other people like you or people who have similar values and life goals like that.

And so I think through that community is definitely how I was able to like grow this newsletter essentially faster. But like I said, I had joined it before I started Growth in Reverse. And so just being around those types of people really helped me, I don't know, in business and just like knowing where to look and finding similar people to me was just through Jay essentially. And you're in there too. So I am. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a good one. And I think he just, you know, naturally finds people in there too. So. I am, yeah. Yeah, it's a good one. And I think he just naturally finds people who are similar to him. And I'm finding that with my own community. It's interesting to be able to see that there are people like me in my audience. And I'm like, whoa, this is so cool. I didn't know you guys were listening to my stuff,

so thanks. So I think if you can just find someone whose personality vibes with yours, it's a good place to start. And that kind of gets back to what I was talking about earlier in the show about how like, I'm not sure social media is scratching the itch as much anymore for people,

but I think these communities have emerged in a lot of ways to take its place because you're finding a group of fellow travelers and it's almost more intimate because it's in a private community, relationships grow and ideas get exchanged. And I think that is something that people should be looking at these days.

Yeah, I'd agree with you there. And because it's in a private setting, you feel more comfortable sharing numbers and specifics around things you're doing or trying. So I think a lot more value is being had in those communities than publicly on social media. Yeah, I agree. I think there's a lot of value in the private communities, whether or not they're paid, I think, maybe is irrelevant. There are certain communities that you do end up paying a bunch of money for because it's valuable to you

to get the feedback from the type of people that hang out there. But I don't think it's necessary to drop a bunch of money just to get access to these types of communities. I think it's possible to find other versions of things. And obviously if you want direct access to you Chanel or Jay, I'm not faulting anyone for charging for their communities, but maybe that's a bit of a stretch for people who are listening to this and they want to get involved in a community. They don't want to take a chance and drop a bunch of money on something that they're not even sure if this is, you know, really gonna work for them.

So how would you advise someone, whether it's, you know, someone who's new to your community, which is a paid community or a free community somewhere, I don't know, forum, whatever, how would you, what advice would you give someone for like joining the conversation and becoming a valuable member of that community? Yeah, I mean, that's a big piece of this, right? So when I first joined Jay's community, like I joined because I liked what he was saying. But I didn't engage with that community for months and months, like probably six or eight months in. I was just like lurking and seeing what other people were doing. So I think there is something to be said about becoming a good community member. It's hard to give specifics necessarily, but I will say just like sharing what you're doing,

maybe some of the things that you're curious about, maybe just post about that and find your people within that community too. Is that the question you were asking, like how to get, like become a better member or how to find these communities? Uh, well you could take it either direction. I guess specifically, I was kind of asking about being a better, better member. Um, and, and I'm still kind of curious if you've got additional, uh, tips on that, but I guess the thing that I would mention, cause I also tend to be a lurker for a while.

I feel like with a paid community, it feels a little bit weird lurking because it's like, well, I'm paying for this. I should be involved in it. I should be contributing, but I'm not really sure how. So maybe there's like, you know, onboarding that you can do as a creator of a community like that.

But I think the general advice I would give people who are wanting to join a specific community is to give more than you get at the beginning. Now you want to make sure that what you're giving is valuable, right? So you're looking kind of for the places where you can contribute. And then when you see those, don't hold back and say, well, I'll just wait and see if somebody more qualified has an answer to this question that somebody asked or an answer to this problem.

If you have something that can help somebody else, feel free to share that. And the communities that I've been a part of have found that when I do that, it's a lot easier I don't think anybody else maybe even thinks of it this way, but there's sort of this internal thing It's like well, I can't ask for somebody's feedback on something until I've given something So just looking for the people that I can actually help because there's always somebody who has a different perspective And they're just not as far along a particular path as you are.

So being willing to share before you ask for for help, I feel like that kind of opens some some doors and primes the pump, in my opinion, for getting more out of the communities that you're going to engage in. Yeah. And even if it's just sharing an article you read recently that's related, that's helpful, it doesn't have to be your article. It can be somebody else's. I think that's a good way to get yourself

over that hump of the initial post in there. Because it can be challenging. Once you join, you're like, how do I insert myself into this conversation that's already happening? I've also found that reaching out to specific people, so in a community you can generally see who's in there and DM them or send them a message.

And you can say like, hey, I would love to jump on a 20 minute call and just chat and learn more about what you're working on. I find that if you have a friend or someone who you've talked to before, it makes it easier to then join in the larger group chat. So that's definitely a little trick too. If you're struggling to find out how to post

that first initial thing, it can be easy if you find a friend in there, if you will. Well, one of the things that you talked about in your craft and commerce talk, and this maybe is kind of getting back into the topic of social media but you shared a couple examples of people who did certain things I'm blanking on the names but they would basically like record these loom videos and send them to people and they were basically just trying to like, give them a bunch of value before they would ever ask

for anything. And that allowed these pretty obscure creators to get on the radar of people who were much, much bigger than they were. And I feel like at this point, you know, if you're going to do that with the intention of I'm going to get something back, people can kind of tell.

But when you look to, I guess, going all the way back to Pat Flynn, right? Like serve first, you know, when you look to just try to help somebody else, that always comes back to you. Yeah, I would agree with that. In that example, his name was Chris Hutchins, and he was starting a podcast, and he knew nothing about podcasting.

So he reached out to, you know, a number of brilliant minds in the podcasting space and was like, hey, you know, like, I just want to pick your brain on this one thing. He called in some favors from things he had done in the past. And he would do his research before talking to this person. So he made sure he wasn't like asking the same questions they've already talked about on other podcasts or elsewhere. And then he curated all of that information from those multiple phone calls that he had with people.

And he created this loom video that was like an hour long of just all of the best information he got from those phone calls. And he turned around and sent that loom video back to all the people that spent time giving him advice. And so they ended up getting this like masterclass about podcasting. And I'm sure there was probably one or two nuggets in there that they didn't know themselves. So he was taking that ask and turning it into a give, if you will.

And I think that's just a brilliant way to go about something like this. This episode of the Focus Podcast is brought to you by ZocDoc. Go to zocdoc.com slash focus to find the right doctor right now. You can sign up for free. Have you ever tried to see a primary care doctor with a literal six month wait to get in for a visit or drove over an hour to see that one specialist in your insurance network? The good news is you don't have to settle anymore

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Don't forget that. And that URL one last time is zocdoc.com slash focused. And our thanks to Zocdoc for their support of the Focus podcast and all of Relay. All right. So Chanel, I'm curious, you do these deep dives. We should talk a little bit about your workflows and kinda how you're able to stay focused and be productive. How do you do what you do?

What a loaded question. So how do I do what I do? So I mentioned that I will find a creator I wanna learn about how they grew their newsletter. So I start off with all the podcast interviews they've done. So I'll create a Spotify playlist of every podcast interview I can find. Generally that ends up being like 30 to 60 episodes long.

So I don't usually get to all of them, but I will listen to the ones I think are most interesting to me. I take walks, regular walks, like really long ones, like hour and a half, two hour walks each day, and I will listen to those podcasts while I'm walking. This helps because I tend to get distracted very easily. We talked earlier, I do have undiagnosed ADHD,

working on a diagnosis, but it's definitely there in some respects, so being able to listen to these on my walks has helped me. Like, you can't really do anything else while you're outside walking. The most I can do is take a quick note on my Apple Notes app on my phone, but it's not like I'm gonna get distracted by a different browser tab or a YouTube video that pops up or something.

So that's how I found the best way for me to like stay focused on the research is by essentially taking myself out of the distractions and just going on a walk outside. So that's kind of the big one for me. And then, like I said, I'll just use Apple Notes for some quick notes on each episode. Did you develop that habit just with these podcasts or have you always been someone who goes out on a walk to think about things? I've always leaned more towards walking.

I actually did a, there's this Susan G. Komen breast cancer awareness 60-mile walk. I did that. It's over the course of three days. You walk 20 miles a day. So I did that. So I had to train for it, which led to lots of walking outside. And I think from there, I just kind of naturally lean towards being a person who enjoys going outside for a walk.

It's hard in the winter though, I will say, when there's snow on the ground or ice or something, it's a little challenging. So a treadmill can help, but you know, it's easier when it's outside. It's not the same. It's not the same. It's not the same.

Yeah, but the reason I ask that, I feel like that's such a great tip for people listening. If you don't have a walking habit, you should. Like it solves so many problems. I've had a couple different careers, and every time I get at a problem, whether it's a legal brief or a podcast or whatever, taking a walk, like just taking a walk, it solves the problem for me.

Cause it does allow your brain to kind of reset and come at things from different angles. It's a great habit. I'm glad that you shared that. Yeah, it's like my cheat code, I think. Even just if I have a phone call that I'm on, I'll take a walk. I'd rather do that than sit there on a video call.

I feel like my ideas flow much better on a walk as well. Yeah, and I'm not sure that's true for everybody, but I think everybody should try it. But I think for a lot of us, I mean, you look at us as a species, that's what we did, we walked, right? I mean, we couldn't run as fast as a gazelle, but we could walk a long time until the gazelle got tired.

And then we got within arrow range and then we ate dinner, right? And that's just built into us so fundamentally that the modern thing where you go to work and you sit at a desk for eight hours and then you go home, that's, it's like tying your hand behind your back. It's really hard to do that. Like a walk can really free up your brain

to come up with some great ideas. Doesn't surprise me at all that someone as curious as you is a walker. Well, thanks. Yeah, it's even to the point where I got one of those like under the desk treadmills. And so if I have a video I wanna a video I want to watch or something that doesn't involve a ton of typing, I will watch that at my desk while I walk, which is really fun too.

Helps in the winter as well. But yeah. outside exercise being difficult. I'm not a walker, I'm a runner, but I likewise get a lot of my ideas when I'm out for a run and live in Wisconsin. So it's currently 14 degrees and we got six inches of snow a couple days ago. So that's not always possible, That's not always possible, but I think it's important to recognize

when those modes activate. So you kind of mentioned, you know, you're training for this big long walk, and then you did it, and then you kind of realized that my brain lights up a little bit different when I'm in this environment. So how can I recreate that even in the winter in the Midwest? You know, I could get a walking treadmill, put it under my desk. Yeah, it's not the same, but it's the best I can do with what I've got best I can do with what I've got to work with. And I feel like that's kind of focused productivity in a nutshell is figuring out what works for you and kind

of tying it back to the curiosity. You know you have to pay attention to what is actually happening when you are going through these things. You know, oh that actually worked. I should figure out a way to do more of that. Really it's just kind of like what are you optimizing for. I should figure out a way to do more of that. Really, it's just kind of like, what are you optimizing for? I do wanna kind of tie this back to the, you mentioned the undiagnosed ADHD. So we've had, you know, Jesse Anderson on the show,

he's kind of the ADHD guy, wrote a book on it. So we don't need to get too specific into ADHD itself, but what does that undiagnosed ADHD look like for you and kind of what are you doing to, for lack of a better term, manage it? Well, I think it goes back to like the whole concept of my deep dive schedule. I go super deep into this one topic.

And with ADHD, you're very good at, if you can get into the flow, you completely forget time exists. You won't eat for hours and hours. Some people don't, I won't say everybody. But you can get into the flow a lot more deeply, I think. And so for me, it's helpful when I find a topic and I'm going like really deep into this person's

like backstory and how they've grown. But then on Sunday I hit publish and like, I just move on. Like there's no, this isn't something I continuously think about moving forward. It's just like, I researched their story, write their story, and then I hit publish and I move on to another one. And so for me, that's very helpful because I have a lot of interests. And so those interests do change, but I'm sticking with the same foundation, if you

will. So it's like mini research projects towards the same goal. But yeah, that allows me to kind of move on from something that, you know, I spend enough time on it. It gives me a forcing function to actually hit publish because otherwise I'd probably spend months on the one thing. Yeah, so the deep dives are very helpful for me in that respect. I feel like I've stumbled into like the best business model for my brain at this point. But yeah, I mean, it's definitely challenging. I think using visual timers is helpful. So I have this actual physical timer that sits on my desk

that I can see how much time is left. So I'll set that sometimes if I'm feeling bored. I'm like, all right, what can I get done in the next 25 minutes and just try and gamify it to make it more fun? I also like to use Notion calendar. So Notion has this cool feature where, I mean, it's like a task list essentially, but that doesn't work for me. So with Notion calendar, you can like drag tasks into a specific day. And so I use my calendar as like a to-do list. So everything is like, you know, it doesn't work great every day, but the days it works, it's awesome. So if I set something up for like an hour and it takes two hours, like that's going to throw

off my schedule. But I really enjoy that tool for being able to at least try and set my day up for success. Oftentimes it falls apart, but that's okay. So that tool has helped a lot. Yeah, there's a quote I love by Dwight Eisenhower. It says, plans are worthless, but planning is everything. Nice. Basically the plan is gonna get destroyed

when it comes in contact with real life. But also the process of planning and providing the intention of this is what I'm going to do and sort of pre-deciding this is when and where I'm going to get this done. That for me, I don't have ADHD diagnosed or undiagnosed that I'm aware of, but my brain tends to, as long as I haven't decided that stuff ahead of time, constantly flip back into, well, there's probably about 100 other things

that I should be thinking about right now, but when I essentially, what you're describing, it sounds like it's time blocking your day. I'm gonna do this at this time this at that time That allows my my brain to to be quiet and focus on the thing that I've predetermined is the the right use of that time and Then I just kind of build in a big enough buffer so that when things take longer than they they should I've got a little bit of margin, so by the end of the day,

most of the time it sort of works out. You kind of have to figure out what am I actually capable of? You know, you can't just base what you're planning off of all the things that my task manager has told me are due today. You gotta be realistic. Like this is what I think I can actually get done but

that is really important in terms of being able to focus on anything. I feel like if I don't do that process even though you know I have a general idea because I've got quarterly and weekly plans too you know my brain just kind of automatically is going back into that firefighter mode where it's scanning the horizon for the next urgent thing that I should be thinking about. Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons that walking helps me so much because I'm not in

that mode where I can look at my task manager and see all of the things that I could and probably should be doing. So it's nice if you can find something that you can do on the go to be able to do that. Even if it's like your thinking time or research or listening to something, yeah. It's easy to get distracted when you have tabs open and your email inbox is open, that's even worse.

So I like that. You know, the idea of putting tasks on your calendar, a lot of people use a technique like that. One thing I always wonder is like, how do you deal with the little ticky tack, you know, items of the day of, you know, I don't know, make dentist appointment or things like that. Do those go on your calendar as well?

I am the worst at making appointments, so that's a great question. We found a hole in the system. Yeah, I get it. That is my hole. Yeah. I am the worst. I don't know why, I tend to build these things up,

but I'm like, oh, I have to make a dentist appointment. And it feels like a huge, massive project that honestly, in reality, when I sit down, it takes me probably 90 seconds. That's the introvert's dilemma right there. It's real. Yeah, I struggle with that a lot. Yeah, I mean, I do put those on my calendar,

but they often get snoozed to like weeks later. So I don't know. If you figure that out, let me know. When you've got something that you absolutely need to do at a certain time and it doesn't fit into the natural rhythm of the deep dives, how do you manage those sorts of tasks and make sure that those get done? Are you talking like phone calls or just like other things?

Anything that's not, I mean, I don't know specifically what might pop up for you that would be like, this is a really important task. It needs to get done and it's not part of the regular cadence or rhythm. Maybe it's, you know, you mentioned the podcast is new. So I've got to publish the podcast or something on this date. And I wasn't doing that previously. So how do I make sure that I remember to do that without

letting it fall through the cracks? Yeah. That's a good question. I think if it's on my calendar and I don't want to do it, I will tend to try Ann Lor LeCunf. She writes Nestlabs.com. She's like a neuroscientist mixed with entrepreneur. And she had, I read this thing about, she does like a 10 minute thing. So she'll like tell herself, okay, you just have to do this for 10 minutes and then you can do whatever you want.

So it's kind of just like giving yourself an out after a certain amount of time. And so I think that's been helpful. It doesn't always work, but I think if you can say like, all right, just do this for five or 10 minutes and then you can go do something else. Most of the time you continue on it because that's past the point of the boring and you're into the fun and you might have found

like the flow of it at that point. But I think just like, instead of you looking at something and being like, wow, I have to do this for three hours, just think of it in like 10 minute increments and that's been helpful too. So that's a little trick there too. Do you have just a list of things that you've got to get done

or do you try to batch things on certain days? I'm gonna be in this mode doing these things. Yeah, with the podcast and even just like calls with other people, I try and put those on specific days of the week. It doesn't always work out that way, but so for podcast guests, I will send out a calendar link and I only have Thursdays and Fridays open. Like that's it.

They can't book any other day. So that's been helpful because it's like, A, I have a couple days beforehand in the week to like do the research I need to do. But B, it also like keeps that confined to like a specific day of the week. So I'm not, you know, having one call at 10 a.m., one at 2 p.m. and then I only have a few hours in the middle where I have to find time to eat lunch and like get other stuff done. Like it doesn't work out that way for me. So if I batch those on a specific day of the week, that's been really helpful.

Super useful tip that a lot of people could pick up no matter where you're in life. People want to talk to me, I always tell them, Wednesday afternoons. Give me a Wednesday afternoon and I'll talk to you then. And it's so liberating knowing that, right? That like I'm not going to throw hand grenades into Monday, Tuesday, Thursday or Friday. And Wednesday afternoon, I'm going to joyfully talk to the people that I have decided to talk to.

And that's a nice feeling. Yeah, and you know when it's coming. It is nice. All right, well, Chanel, thank you so much for coming on today and talking to us. Where should people go if they want to sign up for this excellent newsletter of yours? Thanks. It's at growthinreverse.com. I'm on social media too sometimes, but that's the most consistent place you can find me. All right.

Well, go check it out, gang. I subscribed as soon as I... I didn't know much about you, Chanel. and I'll leave the link in the description. And if you want to get the full list of all the different ways to get started, you can find me on the YouTube channel, and I'll leave the link in the description. And if you want to get the full list of all the different ways to get started, you can find me on the YouTube channel, and I'll leave the link in the description. And if you want to get the full list of all the different

ways to get started, you can find me on the YouTube channel, and I'll leave the link in the description. And if you want to get the full list of all the different ways to get started, you can find me on the.fm slash focus. If you wanna get the ad for extended version of the show, the Deep Focus, go ahead and sign up there.

We'd really appreciate your support. Today on Deep Focus, Chanel has raised the topic of gardening and I am going to bite. So we're gonna be talking a little bit about gardening. Can't wait for that. Otherwise, we'll see you next time.