Focused - 247: Getting Intentional, with Chris Bailey

Episode Date: January 13, 2026

Hey gang, Mike here. Just a quick note that we had some technical difficulties today, which unfortunately means that we do not have a video version of this podcast episode. The audio version turned out great, but if you're looking for the YouTube link, it doesn't exist this time around. So sorry about that, and we'll do our best to get it sorted before the next episode. And now, on with the show. Welcome to Focus to Productivity Podcasts about more than just cranking widgets. I'm Mike Schmitz. I'm joined by my fellow co-host, Mr. David Sparks.

Hey, David. Hello, Mike. How are you today? I'm doing great. How about you? Looking forward to talking to our friend, Chris Bailey, about his new book. Yes, exactly. So welcome back to the podcast, Chris Bailey.

Good to be on the podcast, Chris, wait. It's good to be on the podcast. I mean, I dressed up for you guys. I got my finest cardigan on as people will see on the video version of the pod. Yeah. If you weren't aware, if you go to the show notes, there's a link to a YouTube channel. is putting our shows on video now too. So if you want to look at our happy mugs while you listen to us,

no, that's a possibility. Although I want to put a disclaimer in, I actually don't have the view of the cameras up when I record. Oh. Because that's my trick to keep myself from staring lovingly at Chris's eyes the whole time. And so there may be an obscure nose pick,

ear scratch, I don't know, during the episode. Somebody who wants to, you know, get some really incriminating pictures of me. I think if you just went through the show frame by frame, you'd probably get everything you needed. Leave a timestamp in the comments for the most incriminating frames of David. Well, thanks, Chris, for doing that.

You're welcome. Yeah, just for easy access, yeah. Yeah, there you go. But Chris, it's been a few years since you've been on the show. And you have written a new book, and we wanted to talk about that today. I am so excited to be here. We were chatting beforehand. I don't know what it is, but this is the first book that I've written.

I've written three so far. This is number four that I feel really proud of to hold it in my hands. And this one felt different when it arrived. I don't know what it is. I feel I'm way too close to the ideas that are in the book. still to have a perspective. That'll take a few years. But I feel like excited that this book has a chance to be out in the world and help people out. I share your enthusiasm. I feel like this book is like the one that I've been wanting to read from anybody, but particularly you now that I have it.

I guess we should stop teasing. Chris, what's the book called? It is called. Should I hold up the Canadian cover or the U.S. cover? I'll hold up the U.S. cover. It's called Bubba, blah, blah, blah, blah, drum roll. Intentional, how to finish what you start. You can see it has a very shiny, reflective coat. And this is the Canadian one. They went their own way, a very self-directed society we have up here in Canada. The orange one is in the U.S. and the U.K. Intentional, how to finish what you start. Yeah. The book is called intentional. And I mean, if you listen to this podcast or any like the time, I feel like we always come back to that question of intentionality.

Being focused, doing what you want requires being intentional. But I was thinking about this. I was reading your book. I feel like we've never done a good job of explaining how to be intentional. Because the common wisdom is that it's like a muscle you work on. that you just have to get really strong at it. And if you want to be intentional, you just have to intentional harder.

And that's it. And Chris, the thing, I was so happy you took this topic on because what folks may not know about Chris is he goes hard at the science of productivity. You know, there's a lot of people writing books about productivity

and a lot of them use a study or two. Whereas Chris reads all of those studies. studies and does all of the research. And that's really, I think, one of your unique angles of these books is you don't just pull something out of a hat. You go deep into the science and research and then you figure out how for us mortals, we can apply that successfully to being productive or in this case intentional. And I don't know, Chris, has anybody, you know, you probably don't even know.

I mean, I've never seen anybody take on intentionality with the approach you doing this book, because like I said, you're always just told to intentional harder. And that's not good enough. In this book, you kind of explain the science behind intentionality and give the reader some key insights as to how to become more intentional. So I'm really impressed with this book. Thank you, first of all. And I do feel as though I've been circling around this idea of intentionality for 10 years with every book that I've written. Because I've always seen productivity as a process of becoming more intentional because we don't become more productive by working hard or harder, harder, faster, faster, faster.

We become more productive by working more deliberately on the right things deliberately with intention. And the truth is that I've always wanted to write a book on intentionality, but I found that the meat wasn't there. And I remember chatting with my Canadian editor back in the day. And one of the toughest things about acquiring a book as an editor at a major publishing host is feeling out, is this book a big, long-read article-sized idea, or is this a book-sized idea? and I found that whenever I expanded out the thoughts, the opinions, the science that I collected on intentionality in the past, it was more of a long read in the Atlantic than it was a traditional published book by Penguin Random House. And that always, it didn't irk me, but it was always

this yearning that I had to get deeper into the science of intentionality because it is this beautiful idea. First of all, we don't always follow through with the intention. that we set, which is the big thing that is covered in the book. But it's realized, so the big unlock for me personally in piecing together these ideas was realizing the architecture of intentionality itself. So an intention is just a plan that will do something. We usually, you know, we set them all day long. Every to-do list is just a bunch of intentions. Every list of goals, you know, the things that we step back over New Year's and plan out, our goal list is really just a list of intentions, just a plan that we'll do something. But it turns out like we can

zoom out more broadly than that to the overall structure of our life and how we look at the world. And there are intentions that take place that we can look at the research and see over a longer time span than goals. So, you know, we have the teeny tiny and teeny, teeny cute little intentions we said every day to, you know, go on a podcast together and hang out and share some helpful ideas with one another and with the audience too. Then we have the plans that those little intentions fit into and the goals that the plans fit into that we have. But we can zoom out more than just the goals that we have to the priorities that we have in our life, the broader aims that we're after in our days, in our months, in our years, and even more broadly than that, to the values that we have,

the guiding principles in our life, which are really our ultimate intentions. And so realizing that there are all these intentions of different lengths and that there can be a way that all of these things work together, how the value, and there is science behind values, there's a lot of pseudoscience about values, which is interesting. in its own right. They're very easy to talk about. They're not very easy to research turns out. But the values can funnel into the priorities that we have, which can funnel into the goals that we have, which can trickle down into our plans, which can become our daily intentions. And so it's in this way we live in a way that is completely aligned with not only what we want to get out of

our day with our goals, but with who we are on a fundamental level. with our values. And so there's a lot to unpack there. I know, I realized, but it's just this idea that I can't stop obsessing over the way in which our intentions work with one another, how our values can interplay with that. And our daily, our smaller intentions can interplay with that too. It's just, it's, you can't get this idea out of your head once you encounter it, I think. Well, and it's just such an unlock for me to understand that if you can remain intentional, even on the baby intentions, just to finish one and get a rep and feel like you're making progress that for so many people, they have the best of intentions, you know, the same exists, the best of intentions. And, you know, you get started and suddenly in comes all the social medias and the distractions and the infinity pools. And like so many of the problems we talk about in the show are ultimately a direct attack on

intentionality. Yeah. And people need to work on that. But I just don't feel like anybody's done it the way you have. And like one of my big takeaways from your book, we're going to get into the details, is though I feel like I have a tool set now for holding on to intentionality better than I did before. Like I always felt like the meditation practice was good.

the journal. There's things I do that have given me some ability to intention harder, but to have a scientific understanding of what's actually going on between my ears is quite useful. Yeah. And I think you touched on something there, well, again, thank you. But I think you touched on something there that is really interesting because intentionality is this beautiful idea. I love it. I find intentionality one of the most beautiful ideas in the world. I think It's what makes us human. Is it beautiful or is it maddening? Because for so many people, you want to be intentional and you can't and you're like,

what's wrong with me? Why can't I do this? Well, that's the thing. We have this beautiful idea of intention, but then intentions collide with reality. And oh, there goes gravity and just life comes flooding back. A discreet M&M reference for all the fans. I guess you don't have to be a huge M&M fan to get that reference. But, you know, there's the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

So we have this beautiful idea of intentionality and, you know, we can be a monk in a cave about it. But then we have to enter the real world. And, you know, all these New Year's resolutions that we hit suddenly collide with our everyday reality or the grand plans, the grand ambitions that we have. They collide with the reality of life. And then it becomes about the follow through. it's not just about the intention. It has to be about the follow-through as well. You know, there's one great quote. Everybody's heard it, that you miss 100% of the shots that you don't take. But the more extended quote is that you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, even though there's a smaller probability than 100% of you scoring. I butchered the quote, but you get the idea. There's not a 100% chance that will follow through with every intention that we set. But the interesting thing is whenever we did follow through with something, there was always an intention that preceded that.

So intentionality is necessary, but not sufficient in achieving the things that we want. So there are other ingredients at play here. There's the motivational component, which is our values, the fundamental motivational force in our life. there's the priorities that a goal needs to be aligned with that fits with our values. There's the plans that we have. So a goal just can't be a goal. It needs to funnel down into the plans that we have on the daily intentions we have to follow through on these things. So necessary, but not sufficient, but quite beautiful. I want to ask something you bring up in the book, which is relevant to the discussion that we've had here so far. Because I feel like

if you're not familiar with the topic, you might view intention as binary. You are either intentional or you are not intentional. And you in the book talk about the difference between deliberate intentions and default intentions. Yes. Yeah, unpack that for us. Okay. So I'm with, so I'm so happy to be on focused because I'm with the fellow productivity nerds who are like nerd out about this stuff. I'm designing the keynote around this book. And I figure like, I can't even include default and deliberate intentions. It's too like in the weeds. But this is what I find fascinating.

This is your home, Chris. Just let loose. Cut loose. Okay. All right. Nerds. Unleashed. Let's go.

So one of the things that I believe is one of the biggest misconceptions about intentionality is that intention has to be deliberate. an intention is just a plan that we will do something. And we set plans to do things not only deliberately. So if you woke up in the morning and every morning you make yourself a cup of coffee first thing or maybe you picked up your phone, you did that out of an intention. But it was an intention that your brain automatically set for you. Because an intention is just a plan that will do something.

and we have these things that we do out of habit. Deliberate intention is just a habit. So about half of what we do, we do out of deliberate intention, or default intention rather. And the other half we do out of deliberate intention. Half of our life is automatic. Half of our life is deliberate. And the wonderful thing is everything we do,

we do out of intention, whether it's a default intention, which is the habit or a default way of thinking or acting or operating, or whether it's a deliberate intention where we deliberately choose where to go. And we transition between these two different modes, what's called neuro-autopilot mode and then the self-reflective mode, automatically as well. So, you know, you might lie in bed, you just woke up. Maybe it's the weekend, the family's out, and you think, ah, okay, what am I going to do here? And so you might scroll on your phone a little bit, you know, that woke you up.

and you might kind of do things on autopilot mode, propelled forward by, monks call it our habit energy, propelled forward by, we can say, the habit energy of our default intentions, the ones we set automatically. But then a moment comes when you think, wait a second, what am I doing here? Like, what do I really want to do right now? And you tap into what I call in the book

and what I got this term from the monks as well. I try with a lot of monks in making this book. You tap into your self-reflective capacity. And you decide where you want to go in that moment. And so, you know, we've all seen those movie montages of somebody who's going through the same dull humdrum motions of their life until like some fit of awakening where something happens. somebody dies, somebody leaves somebody. Something happens, some big pivotal moment in somebody's life. And they decide to like quit their job and become an actor or like train for a boxing match or something. Right. Like we have little moments like that, little fits of awakening where we switch from the default intentions we have to the deliberate intentions we have.

So we're always kind of moving between these modes between working and living automatic. based on our default intentions to being more deliberate and truly, you know, I equate intentionality with the deliberate intentions we said in the book because that's how it's commonly perceived. But we snap between these moments of automaticity and intention, true intentionality, we can say, quite often. And so it becomes a question of, where does intention even come from? how can we use those sources of intention to our benefit to get more of what we want, and as well as what does intention look like? There's a lot to unpack here.

I guess that's why I take the book. You got beyond the extended article. Yes, yes. We are well beyond the Atlantic here, my friends. So you mentioned that productivity is simply accomplishing what we intend to do. how do the default intentions sometimes work against that and kind of how do we address that so we do more of what we want or more of what really matters? Yeah. And I think that's the critical thing is that we have to, we have this almost natural aversion to the default intentions we have. We don't want to be on autopilot mode. but there's also, you know, the power of habit, atomic habits, right?

There are these habits that are remarkable dividends. This is not a book about habit. It's about the other half of our life. It's about the intentional half. But we need to recognize that the default intentions, the habits that we have, they pay remarkable dividends. I think that we even take for granted. You know, the workout regimen that we have that we now take for granted,

the healthy eating habits that we have that we now take. for granted. The journaling habit that David has, that he probably doesn't take for granted because he's quite grateful probably because of the journaling habit. But it's fascinating, like we can almost do an inventory of sorts of the default intentions that we have and the habits that we have to look at what are serving us and what aren't. I think that's a wonderful reflection to start with where we can use that as a starting point. What about our behavior makes us uncomfortable? because it is through that that we can tap into that so-called self-reflective capacity and set an intention for what to do different, for where to go differently.

Because, you know, I mentioned the sources of intention. There are so many different sources of intentionality where intention comes from. You know, I asked monks and scientists this same question, and they both have the same answer, actually. So intentions can come from our biology, for starters, right? So we're on a road trip. We have to use the washroom. So we set a little intention to stop at the next rest stop. But we can also have an intention to, a big source of intention is avoiding pain and maximizing pleasure. So we feel lonely. We feel uncomfortable with our present situation. So we walk up. We approach a stranger maybe, maybe somewhere. Or more likely these days, I guess we fire up an app and find somebody to hang out with.

And there are deeper places that intentionality can come from as well. So lessons we have learned is one. You know, we make a mistake and then we realize that we do. And then that is knowledge that we then internalize that when we look inward the next time into our inner world and we ask a question, we tap into that self-reflective capacity, we automatically set a better intention the next time, whether we see. set that intention by default because of what we've learned or whether it's a more deliberate intention that we said. And the final area that intentionality can come from is that self-reflective capacity,

whether we tap into it through journaling or meditation. Those are, I don't know if we want to call them hippie ways, but ways that are more immersive to some people for hippie reasons, let's say. But it could be as simple as a walk. It could be as simple as chatting with your boss and asking, okay, what should I really be doing here? You know, what is the most important thing for me to be spending time on in the next month, you know, so on and so forth? We can work with other people to tap into that reflective capacity. We can journal. We can make a do list. It can be as simple as that. And so there's a broad swath of places that intentions can come from. And it's that awareness that you were chatting about David, I think, where, you know, we need that reflect.

loop so that when the time comes, when we snap out of acting and thinking by default, and we want to set an intention to do something differently or go a certain way or accomplish something else, we do things the right way and we set an intention for what to do differently where to go based on where we've been in the past and who we already are. I mean, are deliberate intentions even possible without a reflective loop? I don't want to get into free will on this podcast, but that's essentially what it comes down to. That's essentially what it comes down to. Yeah.

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incogny.com slash focused and our thanks to Incogni for their support of the Focus Podcasts and Olive Relay. Chris, one of the things you talk about in the book that I thought was an excellent vehicle for the entire book is the intention stack. Can you kind of explain what

that is and how it fits in all this? Yeah. And I'm realized like, you know, I look at these illustrations that I had done by wonderful designer Anna based on kind of sketches that I had. Looks kind of like a funnel. But it really is a stack. So essentially, you know, but it's shaped like a funnel. So the width of an intention is its timeline. So we have, you know, intentions broad and small in our life. We have the broadest intentions in our life are our values. They're what we ultimately want to get out of life. It is what we value. And then, you know, shorter than that is the priorities that we were talking about. Shorter than that is our goals. Then you get.

down into increasingly smaller timeframes to plans and then present intentions that we're doing in the moment. And if there's anybody that read hyperfocus that's listening to this, the present intention, that's when the model shifts to the attentional space idea that I was sharing in that book. So the models are essentially integrated with one another. So but essentially there is always this alignment of some sort with the intentions that we're engaging with. So, for example, somebody listening to this podcast right now, your present intention might be, you know, listen to focused while doing the dishes or something, or going for a run or commuting. Then that might fit into a plan that you have to commute and invest in your learning and become more productive,

which might fit into a goal that you have to maybe accomplish more at work and get unstuck with a few projects and, you know, go on the commute. Maybe your commute stops at the plan. But then you have the priorities that live above the goal to invest in your learning, to always be improving and do, you know, maybe accomplish a lot of your job. Then there's the values that fit at the very top of this intent. attention stack like achievement in the case of work. Or maybe you're listening to this podcast to

better help other people through the work that you do, make a bigger contribution. So benevolence could be a top level value of what you're engaging with in this moment. And there's always a similar stack on top of whatever it is that we happen to be doing in the moment. We just don't consider it. And when we want to achieve things and then don't, that's a sign that we haven't considered the intention stack, that we haven't considered what a goal manifests as on a daily, on a weekly level, but also what values it's connected with on a more broad level too. Yeah, so one of the things I love about the intention stack is you can take any of those middle slices. And for certain personality types, myself included, you can be like, oh, well, I should focus and not try to do all of the plans.

Or I should focus and I should not try to do all of the goals. Or priority really just means the first most thing. So I can't have more than one priority. And you kind of resent the fact that you have to limit your options because there's no scaffolding for. or there can be no scaffolding for choosing which ones are the good ones. You really have to go all the way back to the top. And then with the values piece, the way you explain the values, I feel like that's kind of genius. Because it's not, you know, here's a big list of values and pick the ones that you like. There are 12 fundamental values.

and there are certain ones that you are hardwired for, and that is neither good nor bad. It just is what it is. And if you use that as the, I don't know, like I said scaffolding earlier, but that's the starting point, right? Everything emanates from there, then it makes it very easy to apply that filter

and create that alignment with, without feeling guilty. Yeah. Yeah. And the values component. So I know most people that are listening watching this won't buy the book. So I need you to know these 12 values. So these 12 values, so for the people that won't buy it.

The 12 values that we all share, I have them in front of me here. So I'm reading off the screen. There's self-direction, stimulation, hedonism, which is just pleasure of the senses. I renamed it to pleasure. It's hedonism in the research, but that is all weird connotations about it. So self-direction, stimulation, hedonism. achievement. Power, face, which is how we come across to other people. Security, which includes personal and broader security, which is actually a value that's gone up in recent years,

interestingly. Tradition is a value. Conformity, you know, abiding by the standards you have set by other people and yourself. Humility is a fundamental value. Universalism, which is protecting and preserving the welfare of people and of nature, which is beautiful, and benevolence, which is being kind, serving others. These are the 12 things that motivate anything you do and anything you will ever do, even the things you don't want to do. That's why there's this intention stack always on top of what you're doing. Because if you have to do some project at work that's not inspiring you in the slightest, that's conformity. That's the conformity value. And maybe a little bit of achievement too. You're living up to the standards that are set for you by somebody else

because you want to achieve in your work and maybe there's a bit of security there because you get to keep your job and serve your family and all these things. And so there's some secure. Maybe there's a bit of face in there too because you look good to other people. So these these 12 values, some are motivated by us serving others. Others are motivated by us serving ourselves. And similarly, some are motivated by conserving things as they are, broader basic conservatism, and others are rooted in improving things or changing things, maybe not necessarily making them better, but making them novel, like with the stimulation value. So a whole book could be written a lot about values, and so dig into it deep.

But what you need to know is these 12 values, they are behind. everything you do. And there are some of these 12 that are more naturally motivating to you than others. And we're all different. And it's fascinating. You know, you mentioned the list of values. That is what bothers me actually about the productivity space, not to go on a rant. But I mean, to find these values, all you need to do is go to Google Scholar and type in values. And you'll see a treasure trove of research about them that will make you realize that oh maybe you know that list of

when somebody hands me like 50 values and asks me to circle one there's no research behind that the basic theory of fundamental human values which was pioneered by Shalom Schwartz it's been cross-culturally validated in more than 60 countries with hundreds of thousands of participants they are what we all share

but in different amounts. But what they mean is because this is at the top of the intention stack, our values are always there, motivating what we want to do and also introducing motivational resistance to what we don't want to do, what we find naturally aversive. So we need to work with the energy of these values, which is really just our 12 motivations in a way. but they're really our broadest intentions that we have. And so they're always there behind the scenes,

but they're what we're really after in our life. And by the way, well, I don't want to weigh it down too much, but because we talked about default intentions and I don't get to share this anywhere else, our values are made up of our default intentions. That's what the research shows. and that is seeing that scent shivers down my spine basically because values describe who we are.

What motivates us is who we already are. That's fascinating. There's so much to impact there, I realize, but it's really interesting. I mean, one of the things that is in those four orientations, there's on one side of the circle, the values that point towards ourselves, and then on the other side, the values that point towards others. And I feel like this is one of those things where you have maybe some inherent social pressure

to think that, well, my value should be focused on others, right? And one of the things that I appreciate about the book is you very much lean into using yourself as the example and your high hedonism value. And I think that's great because it, like I mentioned earlier, these aren't good or bad. They are really your default intentions. So recognizing that you have a natural bent this way and how that affects, you know, all of the things all the way down the intention stack,

you can use that for good, right? You don't have to try and become something that you're not. It's not something that you discipline out of. yourself. Yeah. And they're relatively fixed over time, too. And yeah, I'll call it pleasure because hedonism. I don't know what people, images people are getting in their head when I say that. But pleasure, like, what kind of podcast is as we're talking about hedonism and free will? It's turning into a hardcore romance novel podcast all of a sudden here, Mike. And that was kind of like something that I found caused attention within myself because I

truly value sense pleasure. You know, hardly anything makes me happier than like a gigantic sushi lunch. And so, yeah, just ordering a big Uber Eats delivery order for lunch. And I've always found like this tension with that, that very idea where, you know, what, what's wrong with me? You know, why can't I, why can't I control myself when there's a bag of chips in the house? But learning to embrace that has really made all the difference in the world. So like with a gym ritual, for example, I've found like, so many gym goals that we have are based around that value of face. So I want to get a six-pack abs so I look good by beach season. That's kind of the mentality that we have going into it.

And that fits with our value of face, which is how we come across to other people. But if face is a low value for you, you're not going to be motivated by that in the slightest. But if pleasure is, though, a better value, let's say pleasure and self-direction are a better value or are stronger values for you. And there are ways to calculate our values as well. But if those are stronger values for you, a face goal is not going to do the trick. But a goal to accommodate self-direction, you might say, I want to try three to five different ways of eating for pleasure to find the one I enjoy the most. So the thing about that goal relative to the original is the same.

of actions you take to achieve it might be the exact same. But what is changed is your relationship with the goal in the first place. And so this is something that I find. One taps into your motivational core, the 12 values, and the other doesn't. The other's not aligned to values that, or it's aligned to values that you don't care about. And so that I think is fascinating. That that values reframe where we can look at the same goal but from a different direction by embracing our values and not running away from them. And there's, and I think that is worth doubling down on, if you value any one of these, there's nothing wrong with you. If you value power, there is nothing right. Power, you know, I say that because it's the least common value overall.

But there is a need for power. Yep, right. So, Chris, in terms of values, we all have ideas of what our values are. But what is it the saying about the unexamined life? What did you discover about yourself when you went down that rabbit hole? Oh, so much. So I'm going to have to pull up the page in the book so I can see this list in front of me ordered. But the hedonism thing was surprising to me.

Just seeing the extent to which I valued hedonism sense pleasure. So my top value by a wide, wide margin is self-direction. So I love going my own way. And they're like, I don't do what I do for accomplishment. I don't do what I do to like just accomplish stuff. I do what I do so I can discover things. that nobody has found before. So that, like the self-direction at the top explains my entire relationship with basically everything

that I do. And the surprising thing, though, was how everything kind of made sense to me in looking at my values. So I took certified, the best test in the values test in the world, the values finder actually partnered with them for this book to give readers a discount because their instrument is just so good. But self-direction number one, pleasure, hedonism, number two, humility, number three, we don't need to talk about that. Universalism, number four, security face. But the bottom, I found equally interesting, where power is my lowest, lowest, lowest value. It doesn't even

register on the scale. It's minuscule. I don't want power over anyone ever. I have no interest in that, And it bothers me when other people exercise their power. You know, when somebody is, I don't know, not nice to a server at a restaurant, for an example, as a long ago server, that irks me to no end. And that probably relates to humility as well, which is recognizing our own place in the world and often our own insignificance in the grand scheme of things. Tradition is my second lowest value. That doesn't mean that I hate Christmas.

I love Christmas. But it just means that I don't feel beholden to old rituals and custom. Stimulation is quite low for me too, which explains all the meditation, I think, and why that is such a natural thing that I gravitate to. And so there weren't really surprises, which I found surprising in its own right, because it was kind of like everything fell into place for me. You know, these, I just saw who I was in front of me. And it makes total sense, right?

Because our values are these fundamental motivations we all have in our life. But seeing them presented in front of me in the order that they were presented in, in that nice, you know, pie shaped chart, it's not a pie chart, it's a pie shape chart. seeing the extent to which I valued all 12 of these things was illuminating and then the next steps came to actually harness the motivation that can come from these things. So I took the test too. Yes. Would you find tradition high for you, right?

So I'm not sure because I took it many times and I can't remember which results were the real ones. You can feel it out. I think I got the ones that are the real ones, though. And benevolence is high. That's the defining value. Self-direction is very strong. And then achievement is strong after that. And then it kind of goes down from there.

Humility, security, tradition, conformity, universalism, face, power, pleasure, and stimulation. Stimulation is your lowest. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Which I guess makes sense. I mean, at a conference a couple of years ago, Rachel gave me the nickname.

And unfortunately, it's stuck of Captain Disciplines. So that's what people called me the rest of the conference. I didn't like it. But everyone else thought it was hilarious. I think it's good. Hey, who wouldn't want to be Captain Discipline, Mike? Yeah. The AI had just become a thing.

And so I used, I think, mid-jurney to create this cartoon character of my chest puffed out and a big old captain's mustache, you know, like I'm on the Starship Enterprise. I do think that, you know, self-direction for people that do what we do is going to be an obvious frontrunner. Yeah, 100%. And it is a common one overall. That's an interesting thing that I, about something I find interesting from the values research. is there's the ones that are true to who we are. And then there are the ones that are more broadly reflective of our world writ large. So self-direction is most definitely high because there's an evolutionary basis to being able to go our own way and innovate and create new things for the groups that we're a member of.

But power is quite low, but there still is that almost biological, definitely social, social, need for power. Where in any organization that forms, there are different levels to the hierarchy of the organization, and as such, you need people who are responsible for the various

hierarchies of the organization. Every church has a priest, every city has a mayor. There's every company, every organization, every nonprofit is a CEO. And so there's these natural things, and there is that biological nature to them. that makes some things more advantageous.

And, you know, that makes most of these advantageous, actually. Interestingly, one question that I had of the research is, why isn't health on here? Isn't health a fundamental human value taking care of oneself? And it turns out, so there's that level below values in the intention stack, which is priorities. values or health is more of a priority than it is a value and it fits inside of a different value based on who you are and what culture you happen to be a member of. And so for some people, I think for women especially, it's more of a pleasure value so they can feel better in their bodies.

whereas for men it falls into different categories it can fall into achievement so um you know an accomplished you know feeling accomplished that you build or security it can fall into as well so it really you know something like health is really interesting so something isn't in one of these it can be under them in the intention stack as a priority Chris what are some of the things that that people listening should know what are some landmines towards intentionality you know what are things people should be thinking about that are preventing them from being more intentional that come out of this research yeah i i really think it comes down to one thing and that one thing is not having considered this full intention stack in your planning and so i use the word intention stack it's an idea

that i came up with but you can phrase it more generally not considering all the levels across which you will need to be able, you will need to become more intentional. So New Year's resolutions, you know, I feel I've been, at the time that we're doing this interview, I feel half my interviews are about New Year's resolutions right now in the lead up to this book. And they're interesting because they're a goal that doesn't really consider the rest of the intention stack. So they're a goal. Yeah, it's like random. Yeah, it's just kind of placed in there somewhere. And okay, you know, I'm going to send this into. did the wishing well and hope that it comes back. And that, of course, doesn't really work. And 92% of

the people that set New Year's resolutions fail at the ones that they make. And it's because we don't consider these other layers of intentionality in our life. So let's say you have a New Year's resolution. 40% of the globe right now is trying to lose weight at any given time. We're studied by Ipsos found. So let's use that as a generic example. I want to lose 10 pounds this year. Okay, that's great. But you can't stop there. You know, how does that look like? What does that look like in your plans? What does that look like in the daily intentions you have today? How does that goal fit with your priorities? How does that goal fit with your values? Does it harness some motivational propellant by connecting with maybe the self-direction you have? Maybe the pleasure value you have. Maybe the benevolence value you have. Benevolence. How does that? fit with fitness, right? Maybe you want to become fitter so you live a longer life for your family. And maybe you double down on benevolence so that you tell people, I want to live the longest, best life that I can for you. And so I'm doing this goal this year for you. You know,

whatever it looks like, you need all the different layers of intentionality. You can't just stop with goals. And goals are amazing, right? I think they're misunderstood. I have a lot of opinions about goals that are informed by this research that I chat about in the book, I think goals are more of a prediction than they are anything else. And they're often a prediction that turns into an expectation of how things will go, which 92% of the time to use that stat ends up in disappointment because we don't always follow through with our intentions. But goals aren't enough if we don't consider the values that we have, if we don't consider our plans and our daily intentions at the same time. So all the biggest mistakes, I would say, they come down to not accommodating all of the

different levels across which we need to become more intentional. Intentionality is not all action. There needs to be more planning in there, too. Yeah, I had written down intentions need roots, you know, in that section. And like, when you're looking at a bag of Doritos and you're trying to lose weight, that's, that's, that's, you might be in trouble. But like, you, like, you. You, said, like one of the things you said that really resonated with me was tying intentions to community and others and like saying, okay, well, this intention isn't just self-serving. It's making life easier for my family or my community in some way. And suddenly that gives you the roots, you know, that gives you the ability to, to stand on the intention. And I don't know,

I just feel like it's a very interesting take and science-based take. And boy, this needed to be said. Just one note on that because we so often set these goals too. And then we either decide that we pass or fail at them. We don't edit them after we set them. We need to edit more of our goals as well. We can't just set a goal. It doesn't work that way because it's a prediction.

And the prediction will be wrong and we'll need to. revise the prediction. That's just how things go. So we need to edit goals more often as well and drop them more often as well. That I think I'm a huge fan of as well. You mentioned in the book, I forget exactly who wrote the article, but you found the source of the smart goals. Oh, yes. Basically shared how there is no science behind it and somehow it got legs and everybody uses that, but that's not the way to do it. That was, that. was interesting to me. But the thing that really kind of blows my mind about this,

there's a saying when someone just feels like they're ahead of everybody else in a specific area, you know, they're playing checkers, they're playing chess while everybody else is playing checkers, right? And it occurs to me, all your discussion about the intentions and the plans and the goals, you know, working up the intention stack, that is kind of like a 2D model. and what you've done with the values wheel, which I know is not completely original, but that intention stack, you know,

it's a 3D model, right? It's a funnel. It's got a round top. And it's almost like you take that values wheel. You set it on top. And now you are looking at the thing from multiple angles. You get to see the,

the 3D view of it. And you get a much better picture of what is actually represented there, which then you can use that to your point about editing goals vastly increases the likelihood of you actually following through and doing the thing. Yeah, yeah. And you've triggered me with Smart goals, Mike, because I need to talk about that. First of all, thank you. But Smart Goals, oh, man. So I should say that, you know, this is one of the benefits to actually looking at the research behind this stuff because you think Smarkles, oh, amazing. that's a shoeing for the book, right?

Like we all, so many organizations set smart goals and different people have different, you know, uh, abbreviations that they use for, for smart goals, but in general, it's specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, and time bound. But when you look at the actual research on the efficacy of smart goals, they really don't work that well. They're better than nothing, but barely. And that shocked me, actually, because we've passed around, you know, smart goals in this cultural game of telephone. And I found the original article that smart goals were introduced in,

which actually reminds me of the 10,000 hours or 10,000 steps rule, which originated by a similar, you know, obscure article that kind of went viral before the age of virality almost, where some management consultant introduce smart goals in some article for management excellence and how to get more out of your team. And it's since been transformed in this cultural game of telephone. But there's a lot of redundancy in the criteria, right? Like aren't realistic goals also attainable? Aren't time-bound goals kind of specific? And more challenging goals, this is also kind of an interesting idea, more challenging goals lead us to greater progress than less challenging goals. And so by making something only realistic, in a lot of goals, we set ourselves up for failure

or for less success at the very least than we would be capable of. And also, goals when we're in the learning stages of them don't need to be specific because we're learning. So there's the learning stage of a goal and a performing stage of a goal. When we're in that initial learning stage, it doesn't need to be. So there's all this stuff that's wrong with smart goals. And one article that I referenced in the book even went so far as to identify that there's research waste around smart goals. So they sound great on the surface. But so does. having a list of 100 values where you circle the ones that feel the best to you. That sounds great on the surface too. You have to look at the science. You have to look at the research.

You just have to. Because when you do, you begin to see that a new way of looking at goal attainment and a new way of looking at intentionality begins to take picture. And so, you know, this book is sort of like an integration of a lot of of these, I stand on the shoulders of giants in piecing this stuff together, particularly Dr. Shalom Schwartz, who pioneered this theory of fundamental human values, this is the shape of goals. This is the shape of goal attainment. This is what we have to do. And it's remarkable how it takes place, but not in the way we would expect. This episode of Focus is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-on-one website platform designed to help you. stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or scaling your business,

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They should go get your book, but what are some concrete steps you can take right now to start becoming accountable to intentionality? Really consider what your strongest values are. That is the motivational root of a good goal. Our values are relatively fixed over time too. So it's just a fascinating insight to who you are. And also make a list of your goals. This is something that we surprisingly don't really do.

We all have goals that we're endeavoring to accomplish. But how often do we take that step back and actually list them all out and think, what do I want to get out of this year or out of this life? List them out and then review them regularly. a weekly goal review. And then really during that review, make a plan for how those goals will filter down into your daily actions. Man, there's just so much. So values the goal list. Oh, I need to give people more in case they don't buy it by the book. Know that you have about four to four and a half hours of focus in you every day. know that limit. It's not a natural limit of the mind because if you find stuff motivating,

you'll need less energy while you do it or you'll expend less energy as you do it. But know that limit and work within it for striking a balance between your professional and your personal goals. Maybe invest in the personal ones earlier in the day if you really want to write that novel by the year end, for example. But know the intentions stack. Know the different layers of intention. in your life too, that drive what you do. There's just so much with goals. So much fascinating science behind this stuff that when you see it together, I really think it's hard to go back to thinking about motivation and goal setting and goal attainment the same way. And yeah, hopefully people have found these ideas helpful in the pod. Chris, you know, you and I have, you and I are friends outside of

of the stuff we do for a living. And I feel like, as your friend, not only is this your best book, this is the book that you were meant to write. I am just so happy. You can hear the enthusiasm in your voice as you talk about it. As you were writing the book, we would talk

and you're like, this book is writing itself. That's so easy. And the thing I would add to it for people listening, you know, I talked at the beginning of show that there's a lot of science involved, but this book reads really easy. easy. It's not, it's not like reading a scientific journal. It reads. It gets you what you need. You just did a great job with this book. And it feels to me like this is like an evolution for you as a writer. I'm just so happy for you that, that you've made this thing.

Thank you. Thank you. I concur. I mentioned in the last episode that in the legend of beggar vance, he finds his authentic swing. This feels like Chris's authentic swing. Oh, nice. Well, I actually have another question. for you because in addition to this book, there's a really cool guy who helped you make a pretty awesome video course with lots of tactics, right? So in the book, you talk about the tactics too based on the different values and what the tactics can really give you

in terms of overcoming procrastination and following through on your intentions. And I feel like we should talk about maybe a couple of your favorite tactics. Oh, yeah. So this is something, you know, you know, there's two factors with a goal. Desire and aversion.

And so aversion will repel us away from a goal, whereas desire attracts us to a goal. And so it's interesting where this intention stack is not static, right? There's kind of a flow within it, a flow of volition, if you will, where, you know, where a desire attracts us to us. But aversion is something that if we haven't achieved something, there's probably a version at play behind the scenes. Because the easiest way to tell us something's a priority to us is we've done it already because it's effortless. It's a part of who we are. And so that idea of a version, there's so many different triggers of a version that break down in the book. And in a course that we may called overcoming procrastination, which I'm really proud of.

And they range from whether something is meaningless. So it's not connected with our values, to whether something is far away in the future, to whether something is unstructured or unpleasant or frustrating or boring. One simple idea, one of my favorites, is to shrink your resistance to doing something. So all you have to do, I'll leave people just this one, because I already threw in like four tactics for the intention stuff. Shrink how long you do something for until you overcome your resistance to doing something. So you might think, okay, do I want to meditate for half an hour today?

No. Okay, what about 25 minutes? No. What about 20? Mm-mm. What about 15? What about 10? I could do 10.

And so you shrink your level that you do something at until you no longer. feel that resistance. And so how can you not follow through with something when you only have to do it for the amount of time that you're not resisting it? And so just one simple idea to cap things off, the little cherry, the little cherry on top of the productivity Sunday. Yeah, and the tactical at the end, there's significant discussion in there. I mean, there's some real good stuff, time blocking and different ideas. productivity. Yeah, this book is not all science. It also gives you some nice actionable tactics. And I should have mentioned that earlier. Chris, you, like I said, great book. Thank you.

Everybody listening should go check it out. If you listen to a podcast called Focus, this one's for you. I had it on the kitchen table. My wife walked by and she's like, well, there's a book I would buy in the airport. It says on the front intentional. I mean, but you did an excellent job on it. and all the congratulations. I wish you so much success with this. Thank you so much. More than any other book, I am just so excited to get this book out into the world. Because these ideas have helped me out extraordinarily, and I really think they will for other people. I'm so excited.

And yeah, feel free to pick up a copy if you want. It's called Intentional. Yeah. Did you read the audio book? I did. Excellent. I'm going to get the audio book too so I can have your dulcet tones. Oh, nice, nice.

But I'm in the wood shop. You can talk to me about intentionality. I like that. I was at a wedding like six months ago, my friend, or my friend, my cousin Greg was getting married. And he said, you know, when I can't sleep, I fell asleep to your audio book. I didn't know whether to take that as a compliment or something else. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, you know, it's like the first book you did, the productivity project,

was like entirely tactical. It was science-based, but it was really at the opposite end of the spectrum of this book. And it just seems a natural evolution for you. We always like to finish up the show talking about books for reading. Chris, you want a minute to think about that or you want to go first? I think I'm ready. I think I'm ready because I have them on my desk here. I was reading before.

What are you reading right now? The first one, maybe controversial. You can't read this book and agree with everything this guy says, but I think everything this guy says makes you think. Notes on Being a Man by Scott Galloway. Sure. And the other two are, I don't know how interesting they'll be. The Wealthy Barber, it's a Canadian classic by David Chilton. It's about investing in retirement and whatnot.

Not for every, but also our lives in their portfolios, why asset managers, own the world. Very interesting books so far about the financialization of the world. Maybe not necessarily all a good thing. But sometimes it's scary, the more you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There you go. What about you, Mike? What do you read? I am reading about the science of reading. Hameta is that reading the Proust and the Squid by Marianne Wolf. And really digging it so far. Yeah, I actually read that book when she guessed it on the show.

And that was the first book she wrote before. I forget what's the name of the second book we were talking about. Reader come home. Reader come home. Yeah. Yeah, she's one of the good ones, that's for sure. I am always at the end of the year I like to go back and read an old book that was influential on me.

And when I was in high school, I read the middle. of Sisyphus by Albert Camus. It's a book about absurdity. It's really a book arguing against suicide. And I will tell you, I don't have any suicidal thoughts. But it is about embracing life. You know, the story of Sisyphus pushing that rock up the hill and learning that you enjoy it. The thing that triggered me to read it was I was watching the Super Bowl performance by Prince. You remember, you know, that great artist Prince and he passed away. And I saw this story. about him because the day of the Super Bowl, it was just pouring down rain. Purple rain?

No, it wasn't purple rain, but it was raining, pouring down. So they weren't worried about that the showrunner calls up Prince in the hotel. Says, Prince, I don't know what to do. It's raining. It's going to be pouring rain. And Prince says, you know, I have one request. Can you make it rain harder? You know, when I heard that, I don't know, a few months ago, I thought, that is,

I want to carry that into my life, whenever things go. crazy. Just bring it. I don't care. And this book kind of ties into that. It's also really interesting rereading the book after some 40 years, how I'm a different person now, obviously, than I was then and what I take out of it now. So it's always fun for me at the end of the year to read a book that was influential on me a long time ago. And this year, it's Myth of Cisivis. Love that idea. Yeah. We are the Focus podcast. You've got to get older, Chris, to do that. You're too young. Yeah. Maybe not. I don't know.

Yeah, there you go. We are the Focus Podcast. You can find us at Relate. Out of Femm slash Focus. Go there. You can get the show notes. You can sign up for DeepFocus, the ad for extended version of the show.

We'd love to have you join. Today in Deep Focus, we're going to talk to Chris about hedonism because that's one of your values. And I do think it's an interesting discussion coming from the book of, well, some values may not be what you aspire towards, but you should still embrace them. And it's an interesting discussion. So stick

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