Focused - 263: Removing the Roadblocks, with Cat Mulvihill

Episode Date: August 26, 2026

Welcome to Focus to Productivity Podcast, but more than just cranking widgets. I'm Mike Schmitz and I'm joined by my fellow co-host, Mr. David Sparks. Hey, David. Hello, Mike. How's it going? I'm doing good. I'm looking forward to today's episode. We've got a great guest on the show today.

Yes, we do. Welcome to the Focus podcast, Kat Mulvahill. Hi, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. I'm excited to chat with you. So I have to share a personal story. My first experience with you, Kat, was after Craft and commerce. You and I are both members in Jay Claus's lab. Actually, David is too. And you did a,

like, let's share what we got out of the conference session. And you blew my mind by showing comments from Zoom on screen using e-cam. Yeah. Yeah, it's a nice little magic trick. Yeah. And that's relevant because you are a speaker, trainer, accountability coach, a licensed immunity to change facilitator, but that's not where you started. So how did you get here? Yeah, well, I, to be fair, I actually did start with the training. I've been doing that for a very long time because my past career was at a post-secondary institution. So I was working at a university. I did a ton of trainings and speaking and whatnot. So that part has been there for a very long time. And actually, the immunity to change framework, which you referenced, I was licensed in that. I was licensed in

that in 2012. So I've been doing that for a really long time. And when I first left the university to start my own business, I was focused more on professional development, running corporate training. And then when the pandemic hit, and a lot of people cut back the other spending on professional development, and I was still just trying to get my business off the ground. I started to notice that anytime I ran a virtual training, people would say, how did you do that? What software are using? And how do you have these things on your screen? Kind of like what you just said, Mike, where You're seeing these things you're not used to seeing. And so I took that as a sign that, you know, I actually like teaching this technology and how to present more engaging virtual presentations. So I just started teaching that on YouTube and I kind of pivoted and grew my business that way.

So I was teaching a lot of more technical skills. But I actually always loved the personal professional development part. And so it's actually more of a return to what I was doing before, except that I had about four years in there where I was teaching a lot of virtual presenting skills. Yeah, I've got that experience too, Kat. Like I teach a lot of technology and how to use stuff to be more, you know, effective. But then I also have a kind of a hippie course I teach that is more about, you know, what's important to you. And it's really interesting when you teach both of those topics because they scratch very different inches, don't they?

Oh, yeah, they do. But I, but they do give me the same sense of, you know, I love the moment when it connects the dots for someone where they say, oh, I get it. Now, it's great when you're in a either virtual or real room where you see the head nod, that to me is gold. And even if it's not, and I can't see a face, when I get a comment for someone and say, oh, that finally clicked or I've watched all these videos, but yours makes sense. And so it's that little breakthrough, whether it's tech or whether it's understanding why you're stuck, I still get that same satisfaction, I guess, from doing that. Yeah.

Scratch is a similar itch for a creator, doesn't it? Yeah. And that honestly is one of the big reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast, Kat, because that's really focused in a nutshell right there. I mean, we're all nerds, but we want to use the tools to do more of what really matters. I mentioned it in the tagline. You know, life is more than just cranking widgets.

So we're trying to do the best we can with what we've got to work with, to move the needle, to borrow David's term. And I'd love to hear a little bit about your story and your journey. You mentioned you were in academia and you started your business and you were teaching these things because people were interested in these sorts of skills. But maybe you give us a little bit more detail. How did that journey progress to where you are today where you run a business and you run these workshops and you teach people this framework? Well, I guess one of the big things for me is that while I was working at the university, I was really fortunate that I had the chance to run workshops and trainings. And the last couple of years there, I realized that I, anytime I had the chance to run a workshop,

which was not all the time, I was in the flow. You all know the flow state, I'm sure here, and all the listeners of this podcast, the whole morning just went by and I felt like I am in the zone. And that, I actually had that, oh, no, I'm in the wrong job because I don't feel this way most of the week. It's, you know, maybe every couple of months when I have the opportunity to run something. So as soon as that hit me, I realized I wanted to. do more of what I love, and that's being in front of people and teaching and leading workshops or talks. And now I didn't know at the time, because I had not read the E-Mith revisited yet, that this idea that I'll just leave my job and then I spend all my week teaching, well, no, when you run a business,

you actually have all the other things to run in the background. But that was the incentive. It's, I want to spend more time doing this and doing what I love. And right now, the job I'm doing just has so many other parts of it. And that was my sort of decision to leave. Nice. Yeah. If there was a drinking game for focus, it would probably be when people bring up flow by Mihali Cheeksend Mihal. Yeah. Something that you've said that really resonates with me is this problem that a lot of people you work with encounter where they say, hey, I have good systems. I'm still not getting the work done. And, you know, that is a challenge. I think it really hits hard for the focused audience and for the hosts as well.

That we all have very fancy systems. And a lot of people listening to show have the ability to engineer increasingly complex systems, especially in the age of AI. And you do all this work. And yet, at the end of the day, you still don't get the work done. And that's something that, you know, talk to us to that problem. Yeah. So this is where I, when I first learned the immunity to change framework, it was at a time

in my life where I always wanted to learn my way out of every problem. And I thought I just need to watch another YouTube video, read another book, take another class. That's the way I will get unstuck. And so when I learned about this framework that it was predicated on this idea that when you're stuck, you're either facing a technical challenge or an adaptive challenge. And that was a complete paradigm shift for me. And the whole concept was if you have a technical challenge, you need a new skill set. and if you have an adaptive challenge, you need a new mindset. And when they said adaptive, they meant you have all the skills already. You're just not doing it. And so that was a huge shift where when I would get stuck on things, I would say, okay, well, do I actually already have the

skill set? And if I do, then I need to work on my mindset. However, over the years, that felt limited to me. And it wasn't until only a few years ago where I really started to think that there's something missing, and I was actually going through the process of being diagnosed with ADHD and starting to learn about how our brain works and brain chemistry and dopamine. And that's when it hit me one morning when I was journaling about something I could not get started on, even though I knew how to do it. And I actually did not have a mindset block. I was just frozen. And that's when it kicked in. And I said, oh, I think this is actually dopamine. And this is the fact that I'm struggling with task initiation. And this has more to do with my biology and

not having to do with my skill set and not having to do with my mindset. And that's when I started to categorize into the three different areas. And I say, if you're stuck, is it logical? Is it biological? Or is it psychological? And ever since I started doing that, I just look at problems of why I'm not taking action in a completely different way because each one of those roadblocks requires a different approach. You can't solve all of them the same. And I started to see there were holes in traditional advice where you'll hear these people who say it's all about systems you just need the systems i'm sure many people listening right now are very familiar that everyone says and even atomic habits that says you know you don't rise to the level of your goals or you what is it you fall to the level of your systems i know i'm

butchering that quote but generally speaking and so that emphasis is very much on systems but then you'll hear other people in the other camp that just say it's all about mindset it's a hundred percent mindset And as a person now who understands a little bit more about the actual brain, no, it's not all just mindset. It's not all just systems and logical. There is also that middle ground. But it helps to know which one and where you're getting stuck. Yeah, I really think you're on to something because, you know,

people increasingly want to make better systems, more complex systems. They feel like they're just one app or one workflow away from, suddenly being productive. And I think they need to go more foundational than that. Like if you're repeatedly hitting problems, you need to look deeper. And I really like your message. Yeah. Well, and I also will admit, I have gone down rabbit holes where I overcomplicated and

over-engineered the system. And that's not actually what I needed. And, but I had, it would, in this case, there's a bit of a mindset block that I needed the perfect system before I could get started or I needed. everything to be in place, or I just needed more than I actually needed. And once I started really stripping it back and saying, okay, just what is my minimum viable method? What's just the thing I need in place to take action and just remove everything else and also let go of these expectations that I need everything perfect first, because that's the other mistake that people make a lot, is they're not getting

started because their system isn't perfect yet. I think I'm a founding member of Overe Engineers Anonymous. Are you anonymous? I've seen my subsidi in and I will agree. I love these roadblocks though. Let's unpack these a little bit more because this to me is at the heart of the struggle that most people who would listen to a podcast called Focused are going to wrestle with. The whole goal is to do more of what matters. We have the realization that we get distracted or we do things that we don't necessarily need to do

in replacement of the things that we really want to do, but we kind of just do it. Like we don't think about what are the triggers and the things that are going to lead us to do the things we don't want to do and not consistently take action on the things that we do. And I think these three buckets are pretty brilliant. I think these could help a lot of people.

So want to talk us through logical, biological, and psychological roadblocks? Yeah. So the first one, logical, is when there is a true gap. So if you have a logical roadblock, it means you are missing information, skills, or maybe tools or resources. So that could be as simple as you just don't actually fully understand what steps you have to take. So let's say you download new software and you've never used it before.

You have a logical roadblock because you need to learn how to use this new tool. So that might look like watching a tutorial, actually testing or setting up the tool yourself and then trying it out. But it's not just what you need to know and the skills to do it. You also need to know when it's happening because if you just say, yeah, I'm going to learn this at some point. You don't have a plan for implementation. So I like to think of this as a method. So if you have a logical roadblock, what's your plan or your method? And that just means what to do. You know what to do. You know how to do it. So you have the skills. And also there's a plan for implementation. So when is it happening? Where is it

happening and what tools do you need access to? And this does not have to be complicated. I think a lot of people overcomplicate or think that they need the most elaborate and perfect plan. And I am 100% guilty. I fall into that camp. So that's why I like people to say, what's the simplest version or the easiest version that's still effective? And if we take, let's take a personal example where maybe somebody wants to start running, at the simplest level, you need to know, okay, how far am I running and what am I doing? Maybe I'm just going to follow a couch to 5K program. When are those runs happening? And what shoes do I need? Otherwise, it's not more complicated than that. You need the plan. You need to know when you're doing the plan and you need to have the tools to do it. Overengineering and coming up with

the exact thing, I need to go get the Garmin watch. I need to go get my HRV. I need to get a chest strap, all that's all just extra. And that could actually just be diversion to that you're not. not actually taking action. So that's an example for logical is, you know, skills, information, tools and resources, and just also when is it happening, where is it happening? And that sounds like the place that most people are going to start, right? It's obviously a knowledge gap why I'm not doing this thing. And I guess my version of this is learning to play the guitar. It's like, oh, well, if I had a better guitar, if I had the right pedals, then I could make some amazing music, but really just do the scales with the thing that you have. Yes. And also when are you doing it? Because I think that,

I mean, I was very guilty of that where the thing that could happen at any time, just happened at no time. That's a thing. That's a saying I heard from Gretchen Rubin and I repeat all the time. I never had an actual plan to follow or of when it was happening. So that's another big piece. And then after the logical step, like, where do people go from there? Like if you think that, you don't have the right gear. If you don't have the right tools, you get all that stuff. And then you still don't do the thing. What is likely the next culprit on this journey? Well, so that's where if you truly have everything you need and you have a plan and you're not doing it. I like, it could be either. It could be biological roadblock or psychological.

But I like to just start with biological next. So a biological roadblock is when we are trying to, you know, work against how we're wired and or we have circumstances. that are making it difficult for us to follow through that are physical. They're not a mindset thing. So an example is if we are someone who is doing a mismatch of the time of day. So you are expecting yourself to do something at a time of day where it's just really not likely to happen at all. So let's take the guitar practice that maybe you say, okay, I'm going to practice guitar after dinner, but by that time of day, you're just completely spent and the idea of opening a lesson and doing it, if you keep putting them off, then I would say, okay, there's nothing wrong with your plan. You've got the scales. You've got the guitar. Let's try a different time of day. Or maybe it's accountability.

So for me, I am someone who I am much more likely to follow through when there's external accountability. So if there is somebody there, so having a lesson or having a buddy that you're learning with, hiring somebody to help teach you your skills, some form of accountability where you're more likely to show up. Now, not everyone's wired that way. Some people are a lot more self-directed, and they'll say, I'm going to practice guitar every single day over the lunch hour. It'll just, you know, 20 minutes each lunch day or lunch hour. And they'll just do it because when they make a plan, they stick to it. But for a lot of people, and I think it's more than half, based on some research I've seen, tend to respond better to external expectations. When there's

another person involved or when they have something, someone else is expecting them, then they're more likely to show up. And then the other thing also when it comes to biology is just also paying attention to your environment. So I bet you've all experienced places where you're trying to get something done and it was amazing in one place, but when you tried to do it in another, it just did not work. So I think paying attention to the environment, also the people being alone versus being surrounded by people. And then also preferences are just things you like and don't like. And when it comes to tech, I'm sure you have seen this time and time again. For a while, I taught Notion, and I had so many people that say, I want to love it. I just, my brain does not fit with it.

And there's something to be said about that. They're like, I just keep going back to Apple Notes, or I just want to go back to my journal and write by hand. And I'd say, then follow that preference. Do not try to force yourself into something that doesn't work. And that's also biology, because they're just things that we gravitate towards. And things we repel against. And if we keep trying to ignore that, we're just working uphill and we're just wasting precious energy. So that's what I mean when I say sort of biological. And it can also be physical as well if you have a chronic illness or you know, you're dealing with something that can genuinely hinder your ability to follow through. Paying attention to that

is really helpful. The external expectations that you mentioned there, that one kind of triggered me a little bit because I want to unpack that a little bit. I feel like that's one in a big list of things that you've listed that are basically tactics that I've heard productivity experts spouse. Oh, this is what you've got to do. And I can see how for certain people that could work. And the external expectations is one that I tried and failed at miserably. And I realized that I really resent when people, when I, when I have to do something, like someone just says, you're going to be at this meeting at this time. Like, I will, I have to fight the urge not to just show up late just to stick it to them, you know. So, like, I've heard you talk about the four

tendencies of Crutch and Rubin and the balancing internal and external expectations. And maybe like, I'd just like to pull on that thread a little bit. If you are having trouble with external expectations like I was. What are some of the alternatives there? Like what other sort of approaches can you use to create some motivation to actually do the thing that you want to do? Well, it helps to maybe just define when you say four tendencies for anyone who's not familiar. It is a framework that's all about how we respond to expectations, inner expectations and outer. So an inner expectation is when you say you'll do something, like, I am going to learn the guitar. An outer expectation is when there is someone else that might be expecting something of you,

like show up to this guitar lesson at 2 o'clock. So they're inner and outer. And how you react to them is what sets your tendency. And there are four of them. So if you tend to easily meet inner and outer expectations. So if you say you'll do something, you do it. And if someone else says, do something, you do it. That's called the upholder. It is one. of the smaller groups, but they are very self-directed. If they say they'll do it, they don't need to be reminded. They'll just do it. The next group is people that's called the questioner, and this is people who tend to meet inner expectations. So they say they'll do it, they'll do it. But as soon as someone else asks them to do it, their instinct is resistance. Now, that doesn't mean they won't

follow through. For example, the two of you have a podcast you record together, and you probably don't resent the fact that you have to set a time on your schedule and show up. Because now the other thing is that's aligned with your inner expectation is you have this and you have, you've made this decision to show about a certain time. So when they're aligned, there's usually less resistance. But as soon as someone is expecting something of you, especially if it feels arbitrary or like you're just supposed to do it and you do not understand why or you don't agree with the reasoning, then it's very hard for a questioner to want to follow through. And they will definitely feel that resistance and sometimes that resentment. And then the next group, which is the biggest,

they're called the obligers, and that's where I fall in. And this is where you tend to resist inner expectations. So if you say you'll do it, you'll probably put it off until later. Whereas if there's an external expectation, like show up to this call today, then I'm much more likely to do it. And then the final group, they are called the rebels, and they tend to resist inner and outer. So I don't want you to tell me what to do. Okay. I don't want you to tell me what to do, but I also don't want other people to tell me what to do. And that is a tricky one. that is the smallest group, but it's very powerful in that the fact that anyone is expecting anything of you, it brings up this natural resistance and you feel it. It's a visceral thing.

The thing I really like about the Four Tendencies Framework is that, you know, Gretchen says, for each one, you have different strategies because there's no perfect tendency you might, you might admire or covet or want to be a different type, but they all have their pain points. And each of them has their own strategy they can use. use. And for a rebel, the strategy is to tap into the bigger purpose, whether that's the identity or the goal. And so an example might be, you know, I'm someone who is respectful of showing up to meetings on time. That's because that's who I am and the person I want to be. So you're not just showing up because someone else is going to be mad that you don't show up on time. You're doing it because it matters to

you. And that is different. Exactly. And so that can make a huge difference. And the other thing that I do like to remind rebels is that doing the opposite of what people expect of you is not freedom at all. And rebels seek freedom. They want freedom. They don't want to be told or confined, you know, to someone else's expectations. But doing the opposite of what people ask you is actually not freedom. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So you mentioned that's like the biological roadblock. How is that different than like a psychological roadblock? What are some examples of psychological roadblocks. So psychological roadblocks is when you are hesitating because of fear. And this could either be a known fear or it could be kind of invisible under the surface. And this is actually another blind

spot I see in traditional productivity and habit advice. So if we go back to Atomic Habits, which is a great book, I love it. I'm sure you both love it. And it talks not just about systems, but also James Clare talks about identity. You know, instead of saying, I want to write every day, you say, I want to be a writer. So you're tapping into the person you want to be, that person you want to become. That's only half of it, though. We have our why, but we also have our why not. And this can sometimes be hidden from us. We don't even realize that we have this why not. And this is the dreaded identity. So instead of this desired identity to be a writer, let's say, your dreaded identity might be, I don't want people to think I'm a hack. I don't want people to think that I'm a

sellout or I don't want people to think that I only care about money or whatever your thing is, that we all have these hangups because at some point along the way, something came in our head about, I don't want to be that person, I don't want to be seen that way, or I don't want other people to see me that way. And this, so it doesn't always mean I'm afraid of what other people think. It could be, I don't want to become a person I don't like or I don't want to see this version of myself. And it often is unconscious and happening under the surface. And that's where I like to use the immunity to change framework around helping people to sort of uncover and start to surface some of these fears that are keeping you stuck. And the difference

between the two is that biological is sort of just the way we're wired. Like, you know, children, they're born. They have temperaments. And that is how we are. It's those are in our tendency. Like you said, I'm a rebel. That's not something you chose. But when it comes to mindset, that these are fears that we have because we're seeing the world through our own lens, and we see threats that maybe other people don't see. And so it's almost like we have to take off the glasses and start to look at the world a different way. And we can actually change our perspective.

And we can let go of these fears, which is different than changing our tendency and sort of how we're wired. And that's the real challenge, right? For people listening, they're like, hey, I understand. I have the skills. I have the available time. I'm logically, I have everything I need to do this important thing in my life, and yet it doesn't get done. And for someone sitting in their chair and I listening to this, how do you figure out what the real causes?

Because I think you're onto something. So let's take an example. So actually, I'll share a personal example where I have for years really struggled with strength programs, even though I have a very strong watch. I want to, I love travel. I want to be able in my 80s to put my overhead luggage, my carry-on over top by myself. Like, I know I have a very strong why. However, I have struggled a really long time. And for, there were different methods that I've tried of, okay, I'm going to do this fitness program, or I've worked with personal trainers, all these things, but I always kept getting injured. And once I started to look at this, once I started to look through this lens of, okay,

which problem is actually happening? The truth is, I have lots of. information at my disposal, but I was actually missing information about myself, which is that a couple years ago, around the time of ADHD, I actually learned that I have a connective tissue problem. I did not know about that before. Now I know I'm working with a rheumatologist, and that meant I had to actually find other information, which was specific to people who have this condition. So it's called hypermobility spectrum disorder. So I just very easily get injured, and I was always in physical therapy, and I did not know why. Now that I know that, I was, I truly had a logical gap because I kept getting injured because I didn't know about this. So now I know about it and I've actually gotten a new

plan. This is specific. Now, the next thing, though, is, as I mentioned, accountability. Actually following through with the workouts that I have is difficult for me. So I'm constantly playing around with, okay, how do I put this into my day? How do I work with my biology? How do I find the right time of day for me. And that means that I am trying to experiment. And I'm constantly experimenting. I think that's really important of saying having a hypothesis. Okay, I think this is going to work and this won't. For a while, I was trying to do this new exercise routine in the mornings. And I just realized this was, I wasn't awake yet. So then I started experimenting with lunchtime. I experienced at the end of the day. And so that's something I'm constantly tweaking. And I know that's biology. But psychology,

like in that mindset point of view, I still have fears about getting injured. And when I picture, if I actually follow through with this plan, I'm worried this won't work. This will be another thing that's going to fail. This is something where I'm just going to end up disappointed again. And so I get frozen and stuck because I have these genuine fears and also just assumptions I've built over time that this is not going to work for me. And that's just one area where I can start to see, okay, what do I need to change? Am I missing information? Now, if we take a work example, I'll use a recent one, which is testimonials, where I was not asking for testimonials at all. And I was paying for the software Senja for a very long time that organizes them all,

tags them all, makes it really easy to share. I can send thank yous. It's a wonderful tool, but I wasn't using it, even though I was paying for it. And each month that I would get the little notification of, hey, you're going to pay your bill again. I would just feel that guilt and shame that I'm not asking for these. And I know they're so important for my business. And so I realized that I was missing all three. So I didn't know what I wanted to ask for. I didn't have a form. I didn't set it up. I didn't have any accountability. It was an example of something in my business that was important, but didn't feel urgent. So I just kept putting it off. And then finally, I was scared when I pictured actually asking people for testimonials, the thing that came up for me as I

people rolling their eyes and saying, oh, what a burden. I can't believe she's asking this, or I don't have anything nice to say. And so this dreaded identity of what's going to happen if I actually do it. And I had to sort of surface those fears by asking, what am I afraid of? Okay, those are some of the things I'm afraid of. Now, how I used my own advice and my own sort of formula to get out of it is I started with just saying, okay, what's the simplest version of this? I'm going to create one forum just for my newsletter. And then I'm going to have accountability. And actually, I was in talks with someone from Senja, who when I told her, I kept putting it off. She's like, tell me next week that you've sent at least one person an invite. I was like,

okay, I will do it because now I had someone to report to. And when it came to the psychological, those fears I had, my advice is always start safe. So take some action in a way that feels safe, like dipping your toe in the water instead of diving in. And I sent it only to the highest engaged subscribers that I had on my list, the people who opened almost every single email. And I wrote them an email and said, I feel very uncomfortable asking for help, but I'm going to ask for your help. I want to have social proof for this newsletter. Here's what it looks like. I showed some screenshots of other people's newsletters that have social proof and said, even if you just say, I look forward to reading these every week, that would

really help me. And by the way, I'm not sending this to everyone. I'm just sending this to people who are sort of the, that open a lot of my emails. Please help me. And it worked. I got a bunch of testimonials from people. And that formed evidence that the thing I'm so scared of, I don't need to be scared of. And what it does is it kind of releases you slowly from that fear. And I guess those two examples are me kind of saying, sometimes it's more than one roadblock that you can be facing, but you can start to actually target each one and look at how I'm going to address each one of these. And you're so well informed on all this. I wonder about, you know, the guy sitting there who's got the world's greatest task system

and he just realizes at the end of every day he can't get his task done. Like, how does he figure out what direction to go in his investigation, biological or psychological? You know, I think it's a challenge. It is. Now, so let's look at that example. So there's a person who's got this great system. Another logical roadblock for people when it comes to productivity is that they have completely just unrealistic or not a clear view of how much time they have in the day.

And so that's logical and a little bit of psychological because sometimes we need to embrace the mindset that I need to have a much smaller to-do list. That can be difficult for us because we feel we put pressure on ourselves that I can't possibly only write three things down on my to-do list today. Meanwhile, though, the whole day goes by and they're not doing the to-do list at all. So I think sometimes it starts logically with just saying, how much time do I actually need in the day to do these and getting that clarity, but also just asking those questions biologically of am I mismatching the time of day that I'm expecting to do this? So maybe play around a little bit and pay attention. When something works, hey, when I did follow

through on those things. What made it, what made it great for me? Was it the environment that I was in? Was it the mood I was in? Was I listening to music at the time? Was I around other people? I know for me, co-working and body doubling where the presence of other people helps me focus more. When I'm on my own, though, I do have struggle. I struggle with focusing. And then I think the other thing would be also, if you are really struggling often with task initiation, to me, that is a signal to look into dopamine and brain chemistry. Now, I'm not saying this necessarily means that someone has ADHD or not, but I think it's worth having a conversation maybe with your doctor. If you have repeated patterns and symptoms that look like they could be ADHD, it might be worth looking into that.

And I know that made a big difference for me because I had no problem making the list. I really struggled with task initiation. And now I understand that it's like in the ADHD brain, you know what to do and doing it, that initiation, it's like they're not talking to each other. And so then you can have strategies and tactics that will actually help you to initiate those tasks and get into action. And then when it comes to just, if you're looking at the list, asking the, if I follow through with this, what am I worried about? And that's sort of a shortcut to try and figure out maybe if there are some fears behind here. Like, if I actually do this work, am I going to be doing subpar work? Am I going to disappoint people?

Am I going to put something out there that's not good enough? I mean, a lot of our, a lot of our mindset stuff has to do with wanting things to be perfect before we put them out there. And we just, we have this uphill battle that's just almost insurmountable. So how do we actually right size that? How do we take smaller steps? That's some great questions. And I hope that people struggling with this can can ask them those and answer it honestly. That's the other piece, right?

It occurs to me as we're, as you're talking about that stuff, Kat, the thing that you kind of keep coming back to is patterns, right? So I think that's the thing is not did this work or did this not, but you mentioned experimentation. So go into it with a hypothesis and then pay attention to the data. You don't need to be writing it all down in a note somewhere every single time. But if you can recognize some of those patterns, I feel like that could help you go a long way towards removing your, I guess, logical, biological and psychological bottlenecks, right? I mean, like, that's really what we're after is letting things flow so we can take consistent action on what's important to us, right? Yeah. And I think also just understanding that there are different ways we get stuck,

also just you can catch yourself a little faster if you realize you're going down a hole that's not productive. So if you keep tweaking your system, or I mean, I've had so many people to say, I just need to start completely fresh. I need a new tool. I need, if they have a pattern of wanting to jump to the newest tool or I just need an overhaul or I'm just going to blow it all up and start fresh. Typically to me, that is a sign that maybe it's not logical. Maybe there are some other things going on and let's take a look at this and start to, you know, what's really going on? And it does take a little bit of trial and error. And there's also some meta mindset stuff around people will feel like, but I have already tried everything. If I actually try this next thing, maybe it won't

work, that's actually a fear that we might have a genuine concern that, well, it didn't work before. Like with my exercise example, I have so many, it didn't work before. The last time didn't work. Why would this time work? And I have a fear that if I try this next thing and I'm, I have a hope, then there's nothing left for me. Like, what if the next thing I actually find out that there really is no hope for me? And so actually acknowledging that you have those thoughts or those fears is, I think, really a helpful part of the process. Yeah. I mean, if you're telling yourself, you can't find the right tool, then the tool is not the problem. I think so. Although, so here's another tip that I do like to tell people, especially around

biological, is sort of, I say find your kind. And usually this comes from conversations. Like if somebody's listening to Mike say, hey, I'm a rebel and you are like, you know what, I'm the same way and say, okay, but Mike's doing some pretty impressive things. So I want to learn what has he figured out about himself that enables him to take action and start listening. Whereas if I, in the early days, I wanted to take advice from upholders, people who were super self-directed. If they said they were going to do it, they did it. I wanted to follow their instruction. And I'm sure I've read many productivity books by people who are very self-directed. And I was trying to take their advice, but it did not work because

they are not wired like me. So once I started paying attention to people who started describing the same challenges that I had, and they had solved even part of the puzzle, I pay attention to them. And so I try to find your kind. If someone sounds very similar to you, what have they figured out? They haven't maybe figured it all out, but they've figured out something. And one example I'll use for tools is that for my brain, I decided to try Sonsama, and as soon as I did, something did click for me. And now I've been using it for almost three years, I think. And that tool, works so well for my brain because I set out my day. It's a digital planner. It's integrated with notion with my inbox and my calendar. So I can map out what the day looks like in order. And when I click

start the first task, it goes into focus mode. And I just do the task. And when I click done, it just shows me the next task only. Whereas before, I had this elaborate today page in notion with all of my tasks. But every time I finished a task and I went back and I saw a whole list looking at me, I had decisions to make. I decide what do I feel like doing, whereas this just shows me the next task that I already chose this morning that I was going to do in that order. It doesn't mean I won't change my mind, but I was just getting things done so much more effectively. And it taught me how long things really take because every time I clicked done, it would tell me how long that thing took. So it started to right size for me and give me clarity in my day. So there are times where a new tool can truly help you.

And so I don't want to say never get a new tool, but what's the reason you're getting it? What's the problem the tool solves? If you don't know what problem it's solving, then that to me is a cautionary tale that you might just have shiny object syndrome. If you cannot tell me what problem it's going to solve for you. This episode of Focus is brought to you by Keeper Security. One weak password is like an open door to all the stuff you wouldn't want anyone else getting access to. Keeper slams that door shut on every account that you have. have with a strong unique password for each one, so nothing is left exposed.

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All right, so Kat, you mentioned the immunity to change framework earlier, and I have some experience with this because you facilitated a session in the lab offline, and it got way more emotional than I thought it was going to at the beginning.

I thought it was great. I would love for you to just kind of walk us through it here today. And feel free to pick on me as your guinea pig from the lab offline session if you want. But what is this and what does it really help? How does it uncover those roadblocks and help us overcome some of that stuff? Yeah. So this is a four-step framework that was put together by a couple of faculty members in the graduate school of education at Harvard, and I learned about it and said, immediately, I need to be able

to teach other people how to do this. So I went to their training, got licensed. And essentially, what it is doing is helping us to uncover hidden reasons that we might be hesitating. And so it's those, it's that dreaded identity. It's that person we don't want to be. It's that fear we don't experience. And, I mean, the shortest version I can say is when you actually picture doing the thing that you've been procrastinating or putting off, what fears come up. And so it walks through four steps in order to surface what are some of these hidden things. Because often we don't even realize they're happening. And so it's guiding you through these prompts to help you out. And when you mention that it gets emotional, there was a brief period where I would warn people in advance, hey, you might get a little

emotional or teary. And that scared the bejebus out of everyone. So I stopped doing that. But I do try to create an environment where people will feel comfortable. And the other thing is that in a guided in-person workshop, there's always a partner share. So there's the person beside you where you get a chance to talk to somebody and actually share, okay, this is what I wrote down. And one of the reasons for that is one, to have just someone hear you out as you are working through it. But they're also kind of just double checking to make sure that you are, you're answering the questions in a way where you're going to get the right answers. And so it's just, it's a really, it's a powerful process, but it's also, it can be uncomfortable because we're surfacing

fears that we have about why we're not taking action. And often when we start to ask those bigger questions, we're starting to confront parts of ourselves that we are purposely avoiding. And the final thing I'll say with explaining it is the name comes from this idea that, you know, just like a physical immune system is very good at protecting us. It works under the surface. We don't even have to tell our immune system to do anything. It's constantly a scan. for threats. And sometimes it gets it right and other times it gets it wrong like an autoimmune disease. And so similarly, our brain has a psychological immune system that's always scanning for threats. And if we see a threat, we'll stop ourselves from taking action. And so in a way,

it's like having one foot on the gas for the goal that you are pursuing, but one foot on the break is your immune system that's saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, not so fast, something bad might happen if you actually follow through. Yeah, so how does this actually work? You know, if someone were going to go through this, just high level, what are the steps? Well, first, we want to identify the thing you actually want to change and make sure that it's something you actually care about because that's a huge giveaway early on. If someone says, oh, I should do this thing, but they actually don't care, then that's a sign

that that's probably actually not. That's maybe one of the reasons you're not doing it is because it's not really your But if there's something you truly want to take action on and something that matters to you, then it's a good candidate if you are struggling with it. So we then take a look and sort of taking an inventory of all the things that you are either doing or not doing that get in the way. So we're looking at a list of interferences. I do other work instead of doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I make plans, but I don't follow them and all of the things.

So it's like we're telling on ourselves. And then when we see that list, we start to, it's a little bit of an inversion of say, okay, now imagine you actually did everything on that list. What are you worried about? And that's where we start to tap in. When you spend enough time there, you can start to feel that icky feeling. If I actually publish this YouTube video, what if I make a mistake? What if I sound stupid?

What if I get trolls? What if I realize that what I'm saying is actually not fully there or I'm missing information? So we start to, what are all the worries? And then that's sort of actually the immune system revealing itself because we are putting our foot on the, on the break, because we don't want to experience any of those worries. But then the final thing is asking, where do those worries come from? Why do we think those are going to happen? Why do I assume that if I put out a video where I don't have all the answers that someone's going to assume I don't know what we're talking about? Why do I assume that it's going to harm my credibility if I trip up and make a mistake in something that I put out there. So we have to

start to ask ourselves why that's there. Why do we have that? And that's built up usually over years of experience, things that maybe we've seen from other people or reactions we've had against other people, not against other people, but about other people. And just taking that all in. And once you see that list of your beliefs or assumptions, then you can start to challenge them and say, well, is that real? If I make a mistake on a YouTube video, am I actually going to have my credibility harmed? And so you can start to experiment again, that experimental mindset and push back against those fears. And that's where you can kind of start to release yourself from this tether, this fear that's holding you back and putting your foot on the brake. So it's

like you can start to take your foot off the pedal gradually and start to go and go a little bit further. And it's hard work, but it's definitely worthwhile work. Yeah, it was, it was awesome when you led that session. And I know we had to cut it short because you only had a certain amount of time to work with. But one of the things that I, the activity I chose when we did that live, which sounds like who really cares, but I have trouble consistently showing up on social media. So that's the one that I picked, because I'm in the lab. I hear people talking about all the things they're doing on LinkedIn, all the things are doing on Instagram to grow their business. I'm like, well, I want my business to grow. I guess that's where I got to be. Why am I not doing it? And like I mentioned,

this got emotional. I completely surprised because we're talking about social media. Who really cares, right? And I'm going through the assumptions part and I realize that the real reason I have so much trouble showing up on social media is like inherently, I feel like it's evil. And if I'm on social media, then I'm a hypocrite. The people who are close to me are going to think less of me. I'm setting a bad example for my kids. And once I had to sit with that uncomfortable thought,

is it really evil? Is there not a positive way to use this? And if you were to ask me that, point blank, I'd be like, well, of course, you can use it for good. You can share things that are useful and not just click baity and not just trying to get a negative emotional reaction.

So people continue to engage with the platform. I can show up. I can be used. useful. I can be helpful. And I didn't realize that was the thing. So I'm glad to share with you that I've had, since we went through that, I'm actually working with an assistant now. And I'm publishing to social media a couple times a day because I identified that blocker. And I had to wrestle with it. But once I did, I realized like, oh, it's not that big a deal. That was my, my big thing. And yeah, it was really helpful in helping me overcome that. So there are a couple

things that I love that you said. And one was, you know, when you're just like, it's social media, what's the big deal? And that, I think that actually hits on the fact that often this stuff is, it's completely hidden to us. We don't realize. Like what I heard from your story is almost like your dreaded identity is I don't want to be a hypocrite. And, you know, I don't want to do the thing that I tell people, like, get off social media, that you're so much better with that. And by the way, I fully, I have the same hesitations as you around. I'm healthier when I'm off. social media when that stuff is gone in a way. I am a healthier person. I'm more focused. I'm more level, more grounded. And so I feel like a hypocrite. And if that's a dreaded identity, and I think for a lot of

people, that would actually, you know, stand in the way of their integrity and who they want to be. And I've also done work talking to people around, okay, so you want to keep your message away from these people who could benefit from hearing this. You know, I think that that's, that was a real wake up call for me is to have people start to challenge, challenge me just not being on social media. So I'm glad you brought that example up because it's a tricky one. But a lot of those fears are just under the surface. We don't even realize it. I feel like there's another version of that for me with AI also because you hear the statistics about how it's making people dumber if they're just using it as the answer machine. And I completely agree with that. But also I think that there's

intentional ways that people can use it to do better work. So it's an uncomfortable balance there. And that was again, you know, an unexpected benefit of the realization around social media helped me understand my hesitancy with AI too. Yeah. I'm really glad to hear that. Thanks for sharing that. It's always good to hear feedback from people who went through it and what they experienced. David, any thoughts on what your activity is that you, you would run through the immunity to change framework? I know that social media, I can tell you, I don't need a, spend a lot of time to realize that I have psychological barriers to social media.

There's no question about that. But yeah, I mean, I think we all struggle with this stuff. And I just think the unlock that Kat brings is the idea of like going deeper with those questions and don't necessarily focus in on systems. One of the things that you said in your interview with Jay that I thought was really resonating was, you know, don't attach stigma to this. You know, it's like the idea of needing glasses to read, you know, whatever it is that you need to do to figure this stuff out, you should. Because just so many people are really struggling. And there are so many different

possible causes, but to each person, you've got to find your specific one. Yeah. I mean, I, I'll be honest, I wish I were self-directed. I genuinely wish I was wired a way that I could just say I'm going to do it and do it. Yeah. That just time and time again, I have learned that is not the case. I need some sort of urgency or it needs to be really exciting. It needs to tap in. And once I started to think of it, like, you know, I'm someone who needs glasses. Someone else might not need glasses. And that's very convenient for them. They never have to worry about where their glasses are. Whereas I have to actually say, okay, this is a tool, but it is available to me. And so to lean into the things you have. And I also wouldn't judge somebody who needs

glasses, just like I wouldn't judge somebody who has, you know, a condition. And I think, though, there's a lot of, there's a lot of mindset stuff around being able to do it on your own, not needing help. There's just a lot of pride around that. And that is a mindset thing as well of leaning into the help you need. And that's where an analogy like needing glasses, I think sometimes eases of pressure and people say, oh, okay, maybe it's not so bad. Maybe it's not such a, you know, a stamp of pride to do it without any help when help is actually just more effective. I actually am fairly self-directed, but I find that my biggest problem is I have a complete disrespect for the value of an hour and I don't do a good job of, I overcomit, you know.

Yeah, that's, so overcommitment, I think is actually a really, really good one to explore. And I've done this with other people with the psychological roadblocks around, you know, if I don't overcommit, that means I need to have boundaries. I need to say no to other people. Maybe I'm going to disappoint people in my life. And so, and once we start to explore overcommitment and what that looks like, I mean, overcommitment can be logical because you overcommit, genuinely not knowing how long something takes. But there can also be overcommitment from the standpoint of I need to say yes to people. I can't say no. If I say no, people might think I'm rude or whatever that is. And so I think unpacking some of that, if I actually have boundaries or if I stop over committing, what am I worried might

happen? And that's where I think that the immunity map process that Mike went through is really helpful, because you might not even realize just what's under there. Yeah. For me, I think it's more like, I just feel like I have something I want to get out of my system. I want to get it out there. And I really want to do that. You know, it's not even like, I'm not afraid about disappointing other people. It's just like, like, something that resonates for me if you ever watch the Hamilton musical, you know? Oh, yeah. And the song, why does he write like he's running out of time? I feel that. Like, I feel, maybe because I'm getting older too, but like there's, there's a thing I want to get into the world. And it's like, I need to do it. Like, you feel this drive. And that's the source of mine,

really. Well, and that's where I love the work of Oliver Berkman. And whether that's a thousand weeks or the meditations of just really looking at just value and embrace it. I just read his book for the second time and I wrote down my finish it. I'm going to read 4,000 weeks once a year. I think I just need to go and read that book every year. Yeah. It's like flexing a muscle. The mindset stuff is I think we need to be reminded over and over again. Yeah. Is there an ideal candidate? Like who should be looking for? something like this immunity to change framework. Is there other specific characteristics where it's like this is the type of person

that this could really help? So I wouldn't necessarily, well, I mean, the answer is everybody who has a pattern of struggling with something. So I think as soon as you realize there's something in your life that you genuinely want to do and you have good intentions to do it, but you're consistently not changing, that right there is a prime candidate. It doesn't mean that there can't be logical and biological, but often there's some psychological stuff going on if there is a pattern over time of wanting to do something, knowing what you need to do, and not doing it.

I would say that that's a good fit. Kat, sometimes we like to round up the show, just talking a bit about shiny new objects and what we're reading. Mike already has a shiny new object in the outline. Mike, what have you bought? There's actually two things here. My oldest son is going to college in a couple of weeks. All right. He's commuting, which means he needs a car. So he is going to be taking the Camry and I am looking for a new vehicle.

Actually, I have a new vehicle. We are test driving in the garage as we speak. That's a big shiny new object. It is a big shiny new object. It's a Hyundai Santa Cruz, like the tiny pickup trucks. but it's a used one. Has carplay does not have wireless car play. So my true shiny new object that I put in the outline is this autocast mini cube,

which is a USB dongle that you can plug into a USB port in a vehicle that supports wired carplay and gives you wireless carplay with your Android or your iOS device. Send me the link to that because my car is also secondhand. And it's wired. It's wired. And I would love the option for wireless. Yeah, there's a bunch of these out there. This is the one that seem to have decent reviews.

Full disclosure, I have not received this yet. But I have no doubt that it will work. I will report back if it does not. But yeah, this is such a great idea. I don't want to replace, you know, the whole system and put in a different head unit, you know that that has this. I just want to not have to use the cable. So for I think it was I got a like you like Amazon you get the new one or sometimes

they'll have like the light like new used ones. That one actually was like 50% off. So it ended up being like 20 bucks. Pretty inexpensive modification for wireless carplay and my my new vehicle. Kat, do you have anything recently you'd like to share as a shiny new object? So it's sort of a shiny new. old. And I actually, I have it here if you're watching on video, but it is a handset home phone, handset phone that is not actually, it looks like a landline, but there's no landline. It is Bluetooth to

your cell phone. And I bought this because for a while I was, I had my phone out of my room. And then we had some family health things going on. And I started keeping my phone, my cell phone back in my bedroom at night, which I really don't want it in there. And I learned that you can hook up your cell phone to these landlines and they'll ring. So it's kind of like a Bluetooth speaker. And so I keep that in my room and I can keep my phone far away from a bedroom. And it's kind of like old technology, although it has the Bluetooth now. So I never thought I was going to buy another landline handset phone. But here I am with this in the house. But I've been telling a lot of people because the other thing that's an unexpected benefit is that I always have my phone.

on silent and I never want notifications going off. But I stopped wearing my Apple Watch, which used to alert me if I got a text from somebody like, you know, family, spouse, whatever. Now though, if they call, even though my phone is silent, only my contacts can come through and it will ring. So I hear the ringing and I know I'm getting a phone call from somebody on my contact list. Nice. That is fantastic. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I do that like, I like the idea of leaving the phone downstairs, but I always worry that somebody's going to call with a problem. And when you're a dad, your kids don't live with you anymore,

you know, you always take the call. So I drilled a hole in the back of my nightstand and fed a cable through it, and then I just put the phone in the drawer and plug it in physically. I make it as inconvenient as possible. But then if it does go off in the middle of the night, I'm close enough. But that's the compromise I found.

I don't know if I figured that. one out yet. The thing I bought, though, was at the inspiration of my co-so my other show Mac power users, and my co-steven had this anchor nano-charging station, and I looked at it, and he talked how good it was. Well, I'll buy one just to see if I like it. And man, I love this thing. It sits on your desk, and it's got cables that retract out of it, and it's got like, just, you know, we all have things we need to charge, and this is just like a charging station. You can put it on your desk, or you can put it in the kitchen. Frankly, if you're you did want to leave your phone downstairs, this would be a great way to do that. And it's very

compact. They have them in white and black. And I, uh, I really like it. I may get a second one for the kitchen, frankly, because we had the thing where we had the cable stretch across the couch when people would come over. And I don't want to do that anymore. I want to, I just don't want that. So, um, this is a nice charger. Nice. Awesome. What are you reading, Mike? Uh, I am reading an old classic business book for Bookworm. It is called The Goal by Eli Goldrat, and it's basically on like bottlenecks. And it's like a Patrick Lencioni style fable where it's a fictional story, but there's specific principles that they're teaching through the story. I was, I have to admit, Corey's a big fan of this one, my bookworm co-host. He's an engineering professor.

So he was excited about it. I picked it. It came and it was like 400 pages and I was like, what did I get myself into? But I'm really enjoying it. Some of the, as with these types of books, the stories in the fable are a little bit ridiculous sometimes. It's amazing how like his realization of bottlenecks suddenly saves the plant,

fixes his marriage, you know, all that stuff. But it's good. It's entertaining. And it's one of those books that people keep referring to. I think it sold like 10 million copies or something like that. So I wanted to have said I would read it.

I wanted to be able to say I had read it. And I'm enjoying it a lot more than I thought I would. There's also, by the way, if you don't want to read the 400 page 40th anniversary or whatever, because it's an older book, there is a, what's the term, like a graphic novel for it, like almost like a comic book version that I actually had bought a couple of years ago as sitting on my bookshelf as well. It gives you the big ideas and maybe a little bit more fun form factor. How about you, Kat? What are you reading? So one of the books I am reading right now, it's called The Score by C.T. Newion. I love that book. Yeah. Okay. You're familiar.

Yeah. So I, and right now it's really relevant for me because I did sort of with the external expectations. I made a public accountability goal and I want to reach 1 million people through writing and speaking. And it's a lofty one. And I have a public tracker that I update every week. And it's just, okay, how many people there reach out to, posts that I made, etc.,

which is very metrics oriented. Be careful. And so the score, I think, is really helpful to remind me of that threat of value capture and don't let everything turn into numbers. And so it's really timely for me to be reading this book. I've talked about that book too many times on this show, so I'm not going to do. Yeah, we did a whole episode on that a couple episodes ago, I think.

Sorry about that. No, it's great. I just think that that's a very timely book right now. Yeah. This was my month of rereads. I reread 4,000 weeks by Oliver Berkman, who I talked about earlier. That one hits harder the second time you read it, I think. It's such a good book.

And one of my favorite books in recent history. then in my Max Rocky Labs we re-read the creative act by Rick Rubin which I read for the second time that one didn't hit as hard for me the second time it was a good book I really liked it but the second time didn't have any aha moments like the like 4,000 weeks did that's always my my fear of rereading books is like I'm gonna ruin this one that I really liked it doesn't ruin it I still appreciate it's a good book but I felt like I got the the marrow out of it with the first with first read. Yeah. All right. Well, we'll wrap it up there. Kat, if people want to find out more about you, they're interested in this immunity to change framework. Where can

they, they go to connect with you and learn more? Yeah, so there's my website, catmulva hill.com. And specifically for immunity to change, and I can share this link with you for the show notes, but it's catmulva hill.com slash immunity. And right now it's a wait list, but I'm a wait list, I'm going to be hosting a live virtual workshop for anyone who wants to attend, and that will be coming up soon. I'm still finalizing the date, but it looks like in three weeks, I don't know when this podcast will be released, but that's coming up, and all the details will be there. And then I am on Instagram working on being more consistent as similar to Mike with the posting, and occasionally I'm on LinkedIn. I do also have a, the my,

Build in Public is my podcast called The Momentum Experiment. And I am sharing the experiments I am trying as a person who's my own boss, but I tend to work better when I have extra expectations. So how am I kind of getting over that roadblock and what's working or what's not working? So I share about it there. Awesome. I love that. All right.

We will have links to all of that in the show notes. If you want to connect with us, you can do so relay.fm slash focused. You can find links to everything that we talked about here slash 263. If you want to leave us feedback, there's also a form there. We're going to do a feedback episode pretty soon. So we would love to hear about your own focus challenges and the things that you're struggling with. For deep focus members, we're going to be talking to Kat about something I can safely say, we have never covered on the Focus Podcast before,

and that is knitting. So thank you to our sponsors today. That's our friends over at Keeper Security, and we'll see you next time.