Focused - 4: Location, Location, Location

Episode Date: September 6, 2016

Deciding where to get your work done can be a difficult challenge for an independent worker. Can you work out of the house? Does renting office space make sense? What about co-working spaces, or that long wooden table at your neighborhood Starbucks? There are a lot of options.

David Sparks and Jason Snell spent their careers working for the establishment. Then one day, they'd had enough. Now, they are independent workers learning what it takes to succeed in the 21st century. They are free agents. Welcome back to Free Agents, a podcast about being an independent worker in a digital age. I'm Jason Snell. I'm joined again by my fellow host, Mr. David Sparks. Hi, David. Hi, Jason. How are you today? I'm doing well. This is our first real episode that we've done, regular non-interview episode we've done since we recorded those first two shows before we even knew what the show was

going to be called. And now we know it's called Free Agents. Yes. And we know that people like it because we've been hearing from you. And thank you. We appreciate that. Thank you very much. It's been very nice to hear from people. I was just telling somebody about this at the relay meetup that we had in Memphis. I've been amazed at how many people I've heard from who are not the people I expected to hear from, especially the one that really struck me was like graduate students,

like PhD students and things like that, who are essentially independent workers in the sense that they're basically left to their own devices to plan their time and do their work to progress. And I had never even thought of that as a context, but I guess it goes to show you that even though we're sort of like focused on

things we've learned in doing this ourselves, it seems to be applicable to a much broader range of people, which is great. That's exciting. And we knew there'd be people listening that are thinking about making the jump. Sure. But there's a lot more of those than I thought there'd be. So that's good too. And if we're keeping it real and we're telling them what the issues are, I think that's good. What I think neither of us want to do is have this be something where we take it lightly and say sort of like yeah everybody should go out there and become an independent

person it's sort of like you need to understand what the issues are and then you'll have a better idea it's like um when i every time i visit hawaii there's a book that's in all the bookstores in hawaii that is basically what you need to know before you quit your job and move to Hawaii and it's most of the book is trying to talk people out of it like no no you really do you know how expensive it is do you know how expensive groceries are all these things about it and I feel like that's part of our role here is to be realistic and not you know I don't want to try to scare people away from being an independent worker I also don't want to sort of like make it too varnished a story about how great it is because, you know, there are lots of issues that you have

to struggle with. It's complicated. It's not a panacea. It is not. Speaking of Hawaii, somebody did a ukulele cover of our theme song, which I really liked. Yeah, that was great. Chris Breen, of course, we didn't mention on the previous shows because I don't think the theme song existed when we recorded those but Chris Breen my old colleague at Macworld who now works at Apple but he has a burn just amazingly growing side business of providing theme songs for podcasts and and so Chris did the theme song we got a listener did a little cover version on the ukulele which was great and also thanks to matt alexander who is our narrator of the opening in his best british secret agent narrator voice thanks to chris and matt yes i do think we've got the best theme song and intro of any show on relay it's pretty good i gotta say it's pretty good and

now we've just got to deliver the rest one more thing before we go uh on to the the topic we are getting feedback from everybody keep sending it it in. We appreciate the feedback. We appreciate the topic suggestions. We're getting those in an email. And I always see David writes back and says, I put it on the list. It's good. Like immediately there's a response there. We're not going to do episode by episode feedback. That's not how we want to structure this, but we will do occasional feedback shows, I think is the plan right now. So we'll do one down the road. So if you've got feedback, stories you want to tell, questions you want to ask us that are specific, send them in. And we'll, at some point, we don't know when, we will do a feedback episode.

So what do you think? What should we talk about? Location, location, location. Location. I think that's good. I think that we got it right. You go to the office, you're a grown up, you're an adult, you get it right. You go to the office, you're in, you're a grownup, you're an adult, you get a job, you go to the, you go to the job, you work at the job and then you leave. That was how it was sold. But when you're an independent worker, it doesn't work like that, does it? Yeah. You've got your options open to you. You know, where do you indie is a good question. And it really depends on, I think a lot about

what type of work you do and, the types of clients you work with. But generally, we got it down to three general categories. The first is the traditional office building kind of thing. The second would be the co-working spaces, which are becoming increasingly a big deal, especially for indie workers. And then the other ones are like making a space at home and just staying home and all of those have good things and bad things about them so we thought we kind of go through each one and weigh the the advantages and disadvantages as we go through

yeah i think it's a good idea i think the fact that these options exist for working are one of the reasons why people can go out on their own because uh you know 10 years ago even it was really difficult like just shoes of a lawyer you know i'd have to go out and get space get a secretary all that other stuff with the modern world that's not so necessary anymore and people can work from home and that makes it you know economically more feasible to go out on your own yeah you're not and you make phone calls but you don't have like an office with a phone where everybody phones you and faxes you and things like that. I mean, so much happens digitally now, so much happens on the internet,

that the existence of a space, unless you're in like a detective novel, and you've got to have your, she knocked on my office door. Other than that, you don't actually need necessarily to have that. And the whole concept of something like a co-working space didn't really exist before, I suppose, other than maybe those pods at the airport, where like, if you had a long layover, they'd be like, we can give you an office here at the airport. I don't know if you ever saw those. But now, you know, there are people who need a place to work and are not in a traditional situation. And so, now we have the options to do something that isn't just, I have an office, I put out a shingle, knock on the door.

I honestly, now that you've mentioned that, I feel like I need a door with some frosted glass and some words on it. I feel like I'm a failure until I've done that. All right. Well, I'll send you a little toy door for Christmas. Okay. Well, let's talk about the big boy one first, the office building, you know, the traditional solution. And I think that makes sense for some people still. And it really depends on what type of work you do. But kind of in the world of my day job where everybody's very professional, a lot of people still need an office in a big location with an elevator and parking and all that other stuff that comes with it. As an example, I have a friend who's getting ready to start an estate planning legal practice.

And that person needs an office. People have to come to meet you there. It just has to be done. I think this is something we may have mentioned in the previous, in our previous episode, but it has to do with what your business is. And also like, I think having a routine maybe even factors into some of the judgment here. Like if you, if you're a creature of routine that even if you're out on your own, you may decide what you need is an office that you drive to. And I know people who've done this too, and they're not necessarily meeting with clients or anything like that even, but they want a place that they can go. So they get up in the morning,

they get ready for work, they go to a place, they work there, and then they come home. And so even though they're now working for themselves, they're still in that, that is a way for them to have a routine. And that makes a lot of sense. And also, if you've got, if you don't have space in your house, if you need a place to store things, that can be an issue too. Stephen Hackett, one of the co-founders of RelayFM, I was, when I was in Memphis a few weeks ago, I went to his office and he is basically subleasing in a building. But his office has all those iMacax that he collected and photographed you know and this that's an example of like uh it's not inventory that he's selling or anything like that but he's got a he's got a place where he shoots photos and videos and he has a big bulky items that he's storing and that's another reason why having the you know the real the real office

would be valuable is is that it gives you you choose what it is, and then it's your space to use for stuff like that, that you're not going to be sewing at the co-working facility or hiding in your back closet. Yeah. My wife, a few years ago, when she was the first one to kind of go out on her own, and she set up a home-based paper crafting supply company. She had an internet website, people buy stuff, and then she'd ship boxes all over the world. And it was great. She made a little money on it, but it wasn't really worth the investment we put in it.

And one of our biggest mistakes was doing it at the house. We didn't go outside to get space for it because the thing shut down years ago, and it's still signs of this all over my house. I mean, you've been to my house. There's like one room that's like a shipping room still. We're slowly kind of getting rid of that. So I think if you're carrying inventory, that's a good reason to think about going somewhere. And there's a lot of options for you these days. You don't have to go take down a lease on your name. In fact, I would recommend against it when you're first getting started with this stuff, because you never know how it's all going to work out. And it's really

easy to sign up for a five-year lease or something, and then suddenly realize you don't like this, and you want to go get a job somewhere. So avoid that. One way to do that is to just sub-lease from somebody else, somebody that already has the fancy office, and just take some space from them. And quite often, those deals can be done on a month to month or maybe six month, you know, basis. So you're not sticking your neck out real far. I think that's a good way. There are a lot of businesses that they have to get, they have to lease a space and there's a, there's an office or there's some desks that they're just not using there. It's, it's a, they could use the money. They can't use the space. And it gives you, I mean, it depends on the fit. And do you know these people?

And is it a good working environment? And they're all good questions to ask. But like a friend of mine subleased an office, and it was an actual physical office with a door and everything, in a law firm that was like 10 minutes away from his office. And it gave him a commute, or from his office and it gave him a commute or from his home. It gave him a commute and he could use the break room and talk to people. And it was a friend of his, I think was somebody who worked at the law firm and that's why he knew of this opportunity, but it worked great for him because he wanted that structure. And it was a relatively affordable

thing because he was just paying for a single office as a sublease month to month. And, you know, the risk there is that the law firm expands and says, we really need this. But I think a lot of times they know, like, yeah, we got extra space. We're not going to need it for a while, if ever. You know, this will be good. You'll pay us. You get the space. It just works out that way. And like I mentioned before,

Stephen Hackett, a very similar situation where I believe his brother's organization is subleasing and he's sort of sub-subleasing. But regardless that, you know, their building that they're in is being, is an entire operation has that building and they don't need all that space either. And so one of the rooms in the back is now the workspace that steven uses and it just it makes sense for everybody

because you know you you find a building that you like and it's a little bit too big but you take it because it fits your needs more more than anything else and then you've got some extra money coming in by subleasing out a little bit of it happens all the time my old company used to do that all the time we had half a floor that we subleased for a while because we didn't need the space. And, you know, we were able to find a tenant and it was great because that was just money bleeding away when we were letting that space stay open. And as an indie, you can really turn that into a marketing opportunity too. Like if you're, I was just telling a lawyer friend that wants to get into a real office and he's a business attorney. I said, you should really get space

from a CPA firm. Don't go to a law firm and get space, go to an accounting firm because accountants need lawyers and you'd be the only one in the office. If you're, if you're a design guy, get space where there's a bunch of app developers who are going to need design services you know find a way to to not only use it to get yourself space but also get yourself clients so i love that idea of like then you're at the break room with the cpas and they're like hey you know molly the lawyer that's down the hall we should ask her she's a lawyer yeah it's like yes come to me yes it works and the other option you have now for the legitimate business is the... It's not the mob, is what you're saying.

It's a legitimate business. Exactly. Maybe olive oil. I don't know. But a virtual office, which is what I do. It's a big, fancy office in a big, fancy building. If you look at it on the internet, it looks very impressive. But I don't actually have an office there.

They get my mail, and they have a conference room there that I can use. Now, they have offices I could rent if I decided I wanted to, but I quickly realized that I'm actually capable of working from home for most of the work I do, and I don't want to go into the office for a bunch of reasons. So you're paying monthly for the mail and for the access to reserve the conference room, and then the option of spending like i guess hourly for an office yeah i can get like a day office if i want or i could take down i could pay extra and just have an office reserved for me every day um and and that's a nice way to get started because it's very low cost to get in it and if you want to expand there it's a good way to go you know do that for a year and then see where you're at. Maybe you want to go into a more legitimate, you know, full-on office at that point, but it's a good way to get started. And let's talk just for a minute about the advantages and disadvantages of these, you know, traditional office building. We've kind

of covered already. It's got a certain area of legitimacy to it, depending on what kind of business you're in. You're trying to explain your virtual online internet business to somebody and they're like i don't understand you're like look it's this building i work there yeah exactly that's for most of the world i just have this location yeah that's they think it's my office and i don't really go at length to explain i think it's good for collaboration you know like we were talking about the attorneys with the accountants the designers with the developers. You get in an environment with other people that are in your industry that always gives you someone to bounce ideas off. And when I went out on my own, some lawyer friends told me that I'd never be able to work from home for that one reason.

I wouldn't have people to speak with. But I've built up my own personal network that I can get on the phone with anybody I want to talk to. But if you don't have that network, it's a good way to get one for free, or at least the monthly rent. Pete It's something I mentioned earlier that definitely falls under the advantages list is what we were talking about, about having a routine. That this is clear boundaries for you, right? I mean, this is as clear as it gets. It's as clear as a nine to five job in a big corporation, you go to the office, and then you're at work, and then you leave and you come home. And it doesn't mean that

you can't, I don't know, check your email from the office, your personal email. And it definitely doesn't mean that you might not bring work home with you. But it gives you some very clear lines of demarcation. And that for a lot of people, that could be very helpful. Like I said, my friend Rick, who had the office in the law firm, for him, it felt right to have a place he could commute to. And it's not just being in one place or the other. Sometimes it's something that I miss, actually, from my commuting time, I don't miss riding a bus for an hour each way. But what I did get out of that was a shift in mindset where like when I was at home, I was at home and then I sat on the bus and it was almost like I was gearing up for the

day. And when I was done at the end of the day and I rode the bus home, I was gearing down and, and like leaving that mindset behind and, uh, having an outside place that you go to and then leave can do that. It can really put you in a different mindset, just the act of arriving and departing. Yeah. But there's disadvantages too. I think the biggest one's expense, especially when you're getting started. You know, try not to spend any money you don't have to. Right. But like, you know, we said, there are some options here that are not super expensive.

So if you really feel you need to do it, then you need to do it. I mean, there are places where I think you might have to pay a membership fee. You might even not. I mean, there are some places where you literally, I think maybe the membership fee gives you a discount, but you can also just go and say, I would like to have this office for this week or this day, and that they will rent you the space, that that's what they're there for. It's a sort of a version of what you're doing. Like, you know, you can do that with little or no commitment, which is good, because you don't know whether you even want that space or if the space is too small or too loud, or it's too big, or it's too far away, you have no idea going in. So find a place where you can try this out, I think is great advice. Try it out

without making a long term commitment. Yeah. And the other thing, I think, is great advice. Try it out without making a long-term commitment. Yeah, and the other thing, I think a disadvantage of it, and one of the things I immediately noticed when I started working for myself was all the time I saved. Because at the old place, I would get in early because that's when there was nobody else there to bother me. So I'd be waking up at the crack of dawn, then you got to do the whole thing, get the suit on, drive around a half hour. And it takes you an hour and a half to get to a point where you can start working. Get your cup of coffee, say hi to everybody.

Yeah, it's just crazy. I was thinking about that actually just this morning when I slept in a little bit because I worked all weekend, which is another show. I slept in and I read in bed for a while and had some tea and had some breakfast and all of that. And then at one point I was like, well, okay, I've, I've lollygagged long enough. It's time to get to work. And I got up and came out here and pressed the on switch on my, uh, on my computer. And you know what time it was? It was 9am. So all my log lollygagging, I still was at my desk at 9am. And, and that's that, you know, to do that in the old job, that was a set the alarm for six 45, eat your that, you know, to do that in the old job, that was a set

the alarm for 645, eat your breakfast, take a shower, get out to the street to the bus stop, the whole thing, right. And instead, I just, you know, flip the switch and walked into the office. And that's the great advantage of not having a commute. I don't think it's a, it's an unfair estimate to say that if you're commuting, you're spending two hours a day dealing with that, getting there, getting back, getting ready, all that stuff. Yeah, I mean, and it can vary. Like, I've known people who've done, it's a 10-minute walk away, and they get a little walk and a little brain time. And maybe they're sort of thinking about work stuff too, but they're taking a stroll and they can feel more active. I can see that. It

depends on what the commute is, because it can also be, you know, even if it's short, it's still, you know, it's still going through all those steps and it takes time. Even if you're throwing away a half an hour or an hour, and even if you try to be very productive in that half hour or an hour, you are losing that time that you might have if you were just working where you live. Yeah, I've got a Southern California bias, so I'm thinking at least two. That's true. But then you start doing the math on that. So two, that means 10 hours a week

and 40 hours a month that you're spending dealing with that. So you can see that don't underestimate how much time you can save by doing something else. Yeah, I think the ideal situation for something like this is something that is a short drive away. Obviously, you wouldn't pick an office that's a two-hour commute because why would you do that? But a short drive or even a short to medium walk away, like I've never really seriously considered out an office near where I live, I've got some thoughts about various office buildings that are nearby, some of which are a 10 or 15 minute walk away, and some of which are a five to 10 minute drive away. And that's my range.

I wouldn't go further than that, because at that point, I'm wasting too much time getting there. But you would still have to, you know, make yourself presentable for an office. I know. there. But you would still have to, you know, make yourself presentable for an office. I know. You can't do what I do sometimes, which we mentioned on a previous show, which is start work and then go for a run and then take a shower and then continue working, which is what I did today. You have to be much more regimented as well, which can work for some people. I mean, I think in my mind, that is an advantage and a disadvantage. It's like you have to do all those things because you're making yourself presentable,

because you're going out in the world. And for some people that feeds into the routine, but you lose that flexibility, which can be an issue, especially if you decide not to shave every day or whatever in order to save time. Before we move on to our next category, let me take a break and tell you about our sponsor. This episode of Free Agents is brought to you by Equal Experts. Now, let me explain to you who Equal Experts is. They are a diverse network of experienced software consultants specializing in agile delivery.

They work with companies big and small all over the world to create simple solutions addressing big business problems. And to get things right, Equal Experts only recruits experts. It's a different type of consultancy, not just for their clients, but for the people who work with them. The majority of Equal Experts consultants work with them as independent contractors in a respectful, diverse, ego-free environment where everyone has the autonomy they need to do their jobs well. Each team decides how they want to work together, and this is what makes Equal Experts a particularly flexible, satisfying place to work. For those used to permanent employment, it can seem like a big leap to go it along and become a free agent, but that's the beauty of working with Equal Experts. You get the best of

both worlds, as well as all the benefits that come with offering your skills as a contractor. You're also part of the Equal Experts Network, which grants you some benefits like increased remuneration, increased flexibility, and more variety in your work. Working as an independent contractor, yes, a free agent, in conjunction with Equal Experts also means you'll always be working alongside other senior people. Your skills will continue to be tested and improved. You'll work with the best tools, including open source technologies. There's no playbook, no restrictive process. It's up to you and the rest of your team to work out the best way to solve the client's problem. Equal Experts loves making software, not micromanaging people. With them, you can focus on creating great products and you'll have the satisfaction of working on projects that make

a real difference to the client's businesses. They have offices in the United States, Canada, the UK, Portugal, and India, and they are looking for experienced software developers, designers, and delivery managers to join their team. To find out more, go to equalexperts.com slash freeagents. Thank you so much to Equal Experts for supporting Free Agents and RelayFM. All right, now let's go to the second category, and this is kind of a variant of the first one, but I thought it deserved its own category, co-working spaces, because that's such a new thing, you know, the hipster office. Yeah, and it's similar to what you said, although I think the difference between sort of a virtual office and a co-working space is a lot of co-working spaces are drop-in. They're often very open spaces. So, the idea is, you know, maybe it's just a bunch of tables that people sit at,

or maybe you'll get a cubicle. But it's not, you know, it's not as organized as the idea, like you said, like you're in an accounting firm, and they happen to have a cubicle that they'll rent you or an office that they'll rent you. This is more like a business that's designed to have a very casual use, drop in, use, you know, use the microwave, sit at the desk, use the internet. My friend Greg ran a co-working space for about a year. And then I think he got frustrated and he, and he walked away from it because there weren't enough people using it. But, you know, the idea with sound is like he worked at his house and he wanted a place with other people of similar you know other nerdy people who could uh who could show up and and uh and and work in the same space

and have a little bit of that feeling like they're at a workplace um but it's a much more casual thing i would also throw cafes in here um and i know that those aren't designed as workspaces but a lot of them really are designed as workspaces and if you've ever spent time there, not every Starbucks I go into is like this, but a lot of the Starbucks I go into, it is shocking about how many people are sitting there. I've been in Starbucks where people are making like calls and they've got stacks of papers next to their laptop. And I mean, Dan Morin, my partner for doing Six Colors and Clockwise, Dan works in a cafe, cafe bakery kind of place almost every day, not the whole day, but for several hours every day. And that's part of his

routine, but it's also his outside of the house workspace that he goes to. Yeah. And I want to talk later about escape because I think that sounds to me like that's one of the purposes it's serving for Dan. I think so. But whether you're paying some co-working space to get access to the space or doing a cafe. Just buying some coffee. Either way, you're paying, hopefully. But it is an advantage.

I think it's really different from my virtual office since the virtual office doesn't really want me there unless I'm paying for that play-to-play access. But for co-working, it's kind of designed around, hey, let's put a bunch of people in a room. I think the potential for collaboration and working together could be even stronger in a coworking space because you kind of become all in this together,

depending on the coworking space and the types of people that are there. I've heard of some people that go in these coworking spaces and say it's terrible and nobody talks to each other. Yeah, everybody's got headphones on and they're just there for the internet and the microwave. It's definitely less expensive than going and getting the space at the law firm or the accounting office. They're usually more flexible in terms of hours. A lot of those places are open really late and really early. I get the sense, too, that with these co-working spaces, a lot of it is like literally I can't work at home.

I have to go somewhere else and uh when we were talking about when i was toying with the idea of suggesting that the that the idg editorial group be virtual and not have a that they not rent more space for us but instead just let us go back to our offices one of the things that came up was some people don't have a place that they could actually work at home and the and co-working spaces i think are a place for a lot of people like that. They're like, I've got to work, but I cannot work in my house. There's no place for it or there's something about it that I can't stay there. So they go out to this drop-in space, essentially.

I've got a client that leases an office in a co-working space. They have specific offices as well as co-working space that they have like specific offices as well as co-working spaces. And I went to visit her and I was walking through and they were like playing ping pong and they were playing music. And it was like, it was a super party. And this was like, you know, Monday at two. And I was just thinking, how on earth does anybody get work done here? Yeah, there's no boss there, right? So, that could be, I mean, on earth does anybody get work done here yeah there's no boss there right so that's that that could be i mean that in your list of disadvantages that i'm looking at right now one of them is party time right and that that that's the truth of it is it's it's a it's an office without a boss yeah

so be careful i think you have to pick carefully but but like if you like jason was saying if you're one of those people that has to get out of the office and there's get out of the house and there are some really good reasons why that would be the case. And you don't fit in a profession that requires the traditional office space. I think co-working space would be maybe one of the first places I'd start looking. Do you want to move to the home as an option? Yeah. So, we've listed a lot of the advantages here, and I think we've talked about them previously too. Like, it's free. I mean, you're already paying for your home. them previously too. Like it's free. I mean, you're already paying for your home. The commute is instantaneous and you can do the work in your pajamas and not shower and all of those things that are the great advantages. But as we talked about in the routines episode, working at home

does have lots of things that are strikes against it. Interruptions. We're going to do down the road, we will do an episode about working at home and managing family stuff, especially kids. I am just coming off of a summer of the, you know, having two kids in the house during the summer, kind of disrupting my routines. You know, I've got a, you know, when you were visiting, we had this family staying with us right now. And my brother-in-law's working out of state. So, my sister-in-law has her five-year-old staying with us all summer. I thought I was out of that. My kids are older. Now I totally get why people have problems working at home. You see it now.

I have a whole summer's worth of research. That's going to be a good show. Yeah. So, it is an issue. And I would also say barriers, right? It doesn't have any barriers. It literally, depending on where you are, right? I have a door. So there's that. But before I converted my garage into a part, partially an office, I had no barriers. I was working sitting on the bed or sitting on the couch. And so like the place where people do work was also the place where people live when not doing work. And that can be really difficult to deal with the idea that you don't have a place to go. Um, that, that was actually my kind of deal breaker about, about trying to, um, set up my own office was that I, I couldn't keep, I couldn't envision working all week, every day, sitting on my bed or sitting on my couch. And part of the reason is a complete lack of barriers. Like, there's no separation from the workplace to the home place at all. Even if you're working at home, you can try to create some separation, but sometimes it's impossible.

Pete Agreed. You know, so, when do you stop when you're working at home? And also, I think sometimes it matters to the outside world. Pete First, there's a personal issue of it, which is like, I have those moments where I go outside during the day, in the middle of a weekday, and I am wondering if all my neighbors think that I'm unemployed, which is like, no, I'm not. I actually work very hard, but I'm doing it from the house. And if you've got clients, then they may be saying like, is this a residential or can I come over to your office? And it's like, no, no, no, you can't do that. Which is why something

like what you've got, where you've got a place where you could have a meeting. If you've got people who want to see you in person, you know, that might be valuable to do just for something like that. And this is where you get a PO box or a UPS store, you know, that might be valuable to do just for something like that. And this is where you get a PO box or a UPS store, you know, mailbox or something like that, where have a, have a business address that isn't your home address. So that if somebody types in the address, they don't see that it's just in a housing development or something. And they look at your home price on Zillow or something like that. I mean, that there, there are advantages to something as simple as that. Like my PO box, it's $100 a year.

And it means that I've got an address that I can give people that is not my front door where they're going to knock on a Sunday morning and find me in my pajamas. And I'm the same way with the virtual office. One of the big advantages to me, it's a mailing address. You know, people who on the legal side want to mail stuff, see my address, they see that.

And, you know, a lot of my clients don't care. They're so happy that because I don't have a lot of traditional law firm overhead, I don't totally screw them over with my fees. And they get it. And a lot of them, I drive and meet with them. But I have some that just don't get it. I have this sweet lady. She's in her 80s.

She wants to see me in my office. That's whenever she wants to meet. She doesn't want to talk on the phone. Maybe she thinks her eighties. She wants to see me in my office. That's whenever she wants to meet. She doesn't want to talk on the phone. You know, maybe she thinks the commies are listening. I don't know. She wants to meet me at my office and I'm making a point, you know, I reserve time in my conference room and we have a great time. But for a lot of folks, that's kind of important. So when you work from home, you may have some legitimacy issues. If you do work from home, I thought you had a really good point in the outline is, you know, there's different kinds of working from home. There is the guy who's sitting on his bed or on his couch while the kid's playing video games next to him. I've had that where I've been working before we converted the garage.

I'd be on the couch and then my kids would come out and they want to play video games. So then I go to the bed and then my wife would be like, no, I want to watch this TV show. And that's where the other TV is. I'm like, all right, where do I go? Do I go in the backyard? Do I go to Starbucks? It's like I can't find a place to work now. I'm moving from place to place.

And it's very difficult. But the flip side of that and something I'm sure we'll talk about more in another show is creating a workspace in your home. Like I said, creating those barriers, whether it's a spare room that you turn into an office, whether it's converting your garage or even not converting your garage, but putting down a rug and a desk and a lamp and saying, this is my workspace.

Leave me alone. Like Glenn Fleischman, our pal up in Seattle, you know, in his basement amid the heating, you know, the heater and stuff like that, he has a desk and it's not the most glamorous place in the world to work, but it is his place to work. And I think there's some power in that. There's the proverbial garden shed, right? Where somebody is working out in the shed. It's like a workspace that's been dragged into your backyard or built in your backyard. And it's a little tiny space that you can work in that's separate from the rest of your house. And people do that and find it very successful because it's their place and it insulates them a little bit from the distractions of the house. So, I think there are very different kinds of about I mean, some of it is going to be just like a list of office supplies. But there are lots of lots of things about about making a space where you can. And at some point, I want to talk, I want to have one of our guests. I know somebody who left a big corporation. And now he works in the garden shed behind his house in London, and, and is doing his own independent thing. And it can become like a sanctuary almost. Like, this is my place where I do my work. And there can be some great power in that. So, working at

home doesn't necessarily mean that all your people are always underfoot all the time. You can carve out a space if you're fortunate enough to have some place to do that. The last piece of this is changing up. Even though you make this decision, carve out a space if you're fortunate enough to have some place to do that. The last piece of this is changing up. Even though you make this decision, you're an independent worker, and maybe you don't have to stick with that decision forever, or even just once in a while if you need a day somewhere else. That's, to me, one of the pure joys of this independent experience. And maybe it's just because I had over 20 years of getting dressed up and going into an office. I have some post-traumatic thing going on, but just the fact that I have the freedom to say, you know what? I'm going to go to Starbucks for three

hours right now and write a contract or outline a podcast. And I can do that. I get a great deal of joy out of that. How about you? Yeah, me too. I think it's something that we need to remind ourselves and it comes back to getting, when does a routine become getting stuck in a rut how do you identify in yourself that you need to change a pace because changing whether it's as simple as me going in a different room in the house on a day where i don't have children running around and doing a different task in a different location temporarily like switching to my ipad sitting at the bar in the kitchen and writing something and then coming back into the office again or whether it's a little more drastic where temporarily, like switching to my iPad, sitting at the bar in the kitchen and writing something and then coming back into the office again, or whether it's a little more drastic, where I decide

I'm going to go to Starbucks, I got a Starbucks within walking distance of here, and I actually don't drink coffee, but their hot chocolate is very good. I endorse Starbucks hot chocolate. And not they don't pay me, but I just personally endorse it. I would love for them to pay me and then I'd endorse it professionally. But I'll do that. I'll get a hot chocolate and I'll sit in the Starbucks with my headphones in and I'll work on something. And it feels different. And that's good.

Also, sometimes I'll do that where I've got a kid that I have to pick up or shuttle somewhere. I'll build in a little extra time. And rather than like picking them up at four to take them somewhere else, I'll go to a cafe or something near where I'm picking them up at three or two 30. And I'll work for an hour, hour and a half in a different location just for a change of pace. And then I'll, you know, then I'll go pick them up and take them where they need to be and come home and get back to work if it's still the work day. So I find all of that stuff valuable to just find a way. If you live in a place with good weather and you've got a laptop or something and you want to work at a park at a picnic table, I think you totally do that.

There's so many different options here. But I feel like that's an important thing if you do have your nest wherever it is to think about the fact that you don't actually have to stay there all the time. You can leave the nest temporarily, and it can be really a boost to your productivity to have a temporary change of pace, change of scenery. I agree with all that. I do think once in a while just going – plan a trip to Starbucks or whatever. All the ones near me now have these long work tables in them, which is a great vacation. they know that people are using it as a as a co-working facility um and even if you don't go to the starbucks every day you can go there or or whatever you know local cafe you've got doesn't really matter um that that that can be

a really great thing to yeah you can make it make a date with yourself to say like i'm gonna go on thursdays for a couple hours in the afternoon and it going to be a nice thing. I don't have to do it. But if you need to schedule it, then schedule it. But being able to do it, I had this when I was down visiting you a couple of months ago, when I was just in Memphis, I had that moment of thinking to myself, this is one of the benefits of doing what I do, myself, this is one of the benefits of doing what I do, of being an independent, is I can do stuff like this. I can go to different places, whether it's different cities or just having the flexibility to not sit at the same desk all the time. And if you're going to do this, I think taking advantage of it, not only can it be an improvement for your state of mind and for your productivity, but I think it's important also to do it because this is one of the reasons you chose to do this,

is to act independently. And that means you aren't changing your desk. Yeah. The only last thing I would add to that is I talked in a prior episode about how I try to lump together trip days where I'm going to meet a bunch of people. And quite often, there'll be a couple hour blocks between some of those meetings. And it doesn't bother me because I can do that. I can go to some remote place. And with technology the way it is today,

I can get work done just about anywhere in the world, including a Starbucks a couple hours from my house. All right, well, this has been episode four of Free Agents. Thanks to everybody out there for listening. If you want to read the show notes or send us email feedback or anything like that, go to relay.fm slash freeagents. Thanks to everybody out there for listening. If you want to read the show notes or send us email feedback or anything like that, go to relay.fm slash freeagents slash four for this episode. And we will be back in two weeks with more. Until then, I have been Jason Snell, and he has been David Sparks. Goodbye. See you next time. Thank you.