Focused - 72: Heart-Centered Productivity, with Jocelyn K. Glei

Episode Date: April 30, 2019

The host of Hurry Slowly joins David & Mike to talk about avoiding burnout, percolating ideas, intentionality for introverts, and what it means to do truly productive work.

Welcome to Focus, the productivity podcast about more than just cranking widgets. I'm Mike Schmitz, and I'm joined by my fellow co-host, Mr. David Sparks. Hey, David. Hey, Mike. How are you today? Doing well. I'm very excited about our guests today, but I do want to just follow up on a couple of things real quick. So first of all, we've got a masterminds group inside of the focused forum, which Rosemary put together a whole separate section for this. And I've been working with a listener, Jeff, who put together an Airtable database for us. So if you were following that masterminds thread previously, and you were kind of watching for when the calls were going to happen, we've got a much better process for it now. Basically, there's a form you can fill out. And if you put in the information that goes into this Airtable database, and then we can kind of from there

match up people who have the same availability and hopefully get these groups formed a little bit faster. But I think this is awesome. And I want to thank you, Jeff, publicly for putting this together. It's crazy how this idea that we talked about on the podcast has turned into a real thing for so many people now. Yeah. And this is really cool. I want to call this out because Jeff made this point when we were putting this together. He's like, are you sure you want to do this for free? Because he had talked to people and kicked around the idea of joining these mastermind groups that charged hundreds or even thousands of dollars to be placed in one. But I don't really feel right doing that because really it's the quality of the listeners who are going to be joining these

groups that are going to make it work or not. Even with the calls that we've done, I've kind of just wanted to connect people and let them take it from there. Yeah, exactly. I'm never going to charge for this. We just want people to find each other. Yeah, exactly. But I'm thrilled that this is happening. And I'm really excited to hear some of the stories that come from these groups after they've formed. I want to hear the good things that are happening from people. I'll tell you, I'm feeling some serious peer pressure to join a mastermind group.

But right now I am under a production deadline and my brain cannot handle taking on any more commitments right now. But I am feeling it. Well, no worries and no pressure. But now we've got a system for when you decide to pull the trigger. The other thing I want to call out real quickly is that I made a thing and this one is free. I put together what I'm calling the email workflow for people who hate email. Yes. And it's basically the evolution of an email workflow that I was a little annoyed with.

And as I was thinking about how do I want to fix this and tweak this to where I want it to be, I changed a couple of things. And as I went through the process, you know, David, I've heard you say you don't have an unpublished thought being on so many podcasts, having a blog, stuff like that. Well, that's me this time. As I was going through and solving my own problems, I realized that there's probably other people who could benefit from this. So I created a six-page PDF guide and then also an eight-minute video that walks through it. And this is now a course which is available on my Faith-Based Productivity course page,

but it's free. So you can sign up for it and get it for $0. Great. Thanks, Mike. And if you're, it's, it's great material, by the way, I would add and endorse. And if you're out there and you're struggling with email, which means if you're out there because everybody struggles with email, go check it out. We'll put a link in the show notes. Yeah, and it's not going to be like your email field guide where you talk about the different tools

and things and services. You know, it's literally just how I filter every email that comes into my inbox. It's not going to really recommend any sort of services or apps, but just kind of the thought process for how do I get

through my email as quickly as possible? That was kind of my goal. But enough of the self-promotion stuff. I'm really excited about today's guest. Welcome to the show, Jocelyn K. Gley. Hey, thanks for having me, guys. Absolutely. I'm a big fan of yours. The Hurry Slowly podcast is one of my favorite podcasts, if not my most favorite podcast recently, because your whole ethos regarding what you're trying to say in that podcast, I feel is something that in the productivity space, there's not a lot of, but it's really, really important. It's kind of in line with what we're trying to do with Focused. But you've also got some other great

stuff. You've got a newsletter, you've got the reset course, which I've gone about halfway through it. And the content there is just top notch. And you've also been a guest on the Mac Power Users previously. So we'll put links to all that stuff in the show notes. But I'm really excited that you're here. Oh, well, thank you for all the kind words. I'm glad that the various projects are resonating. Yeah, I would just second that. Anybody listening to this show, if you took the overlap between Focus and Hurry Slowly, I think it's

pretty close. So you're going to enjoy Hurry Slowly. It's an amazing show, and thanks for all the work you're doing on it. Thank you, yeah. One of the things you talked about on MacPowerUs Users, and we'll link that show as well, is that you travel to and do a lot of those interviews in person. And I think it really comes out in the show.

And I really appreciate that you take that effort. Yeah. Well, I hope so. I mean, I do as many as I can. But, you know, kind of given where people are located, you know, you sort of do your best. But it's interesting. My producer, who I hand the interviews off to, but is not present at the recording, usually comments and, you know,

always, I mean, of course, you can tell technically which ones are in person, but always, you know, almost always kind of prefers the ones that are in person. You just get kind of a different feeling, I think. I've always felt that, you know, the productivity, people who talk about this, I talk about a lot in relation to technology you're on a much broader scale but it seems like for the longest time we and myself included spent a lot of time talking about life hacks and things like that and i i credit your podcast as one of the first to kind of make me think twice about that and and i think it is definitely one of the reasons why we make this show,

because I think it's so important that people get beyond, as we say, cranking widgets. So tell us a little bit, how did you get there with that theme? Into sort of a more long-term view, I suppose. I mean, I think, you know, just in terms of the thinking behind creating Hurry Slowly generally, which is the podcast that you mentioned, you know, I think over the past 10 years, technology has slowly changed almost every aspect of the way that we live our lives. And in particular, the values that we think are important, which I think has led to this really excessive focus on efficiency and speed

at all costs, which is how you get a lot of those life hacks type of posts. But I think that ultimately that, you know, focus makes us feel incredibly overwhelmed and anxious. And I don't think it's actually productive. And I think it's also really sort of damaging to our creativity. So hurry slowly was really about starting to, you know, push back on that trend and explore it in a different way. I was just thinking back to the past 10 years. One of the things technology has done is it's made it easier to quantify productivity, or at least the traditional sense of it.

So you can count how many emails you answered. And all the things that we do now can be attached to a timer or, you know, or some way to measure it. And it's like you start fighting that battle and you're never going to win because a computer is always going to give you more to do. Yeah, well, I think that's incredibly toxic. And I talked about that idea at length in a couple of different places, what you're talking about this idea of, I mean, it's, you know, you say tracking productivity, right? But it's sort of tracking this kind of surfacy productivity, right? Email and, you know, Slack messages and,

you know, even just like, you know, things track, you know, timesheet tracking and stuff like that. And, you know, even just like, you know, things track, you know, timesheet tracking and stuff like that. But I think that, you know, and that plays into and I can't remember if we actually talked about this on the Mac users power, the Mac power users apps, you know, you think about the, you know, whittling down your notifications on Slack or Twitter or, you know, powering through your inbox. They play into that, but it's this really, you know, surfacy kind of busy work. But the app developers know that that stuff is addictive. And so, you know, they're really tapping into that. But I would say that the work that is truly productive, that really requires deep problem solving, and make us get addicted to these other things. Like I was just thinking about this book, this quote from this book, The Gift by Lewis Hyde the other day for a talk I was preparing. And I don't remember the exact wording, but the basic idea of the quote is that every time there's an advancement in technology, there's an advancement in technology, there's sort of a parallel devaluing of creativity and of creative labor. You know, and I think it's because, you know, you get into that modality of really thinking about speed and really thinking about efficiency. But when you're talking about any kind of work that's creative, that demands deep problem solving, you know, and I'm not just talking about making art here, you know, it's like if

you're coding, or you're writing, or, you know, you're solving a challenging accounting problem, it doesn't matter what it is, right? These are all things, everything requires deep problem solving and creativity. When you're doing those things, you know, it's an organic process. You can't really control how long it's going to take. And so it's also really hard to quantify if you, you know, did a good job. Like if you did it on the most optimal schedule, I just don't think you can do that. And so there's this real tension between thinking about efficiency and then thinking about about what actually supports real kind of deep problem solving. Yeah, that's a really good point. And I just want to reemphasize what you mentioned about productivity, because the tagline for Hurry Slowly is that it's a podcast about how you can be more productive, creative, and resilient through the simple act of slowing down. It's a very catchy title, because you think about productive and you think about making the best use of your limited time. And then by slowing down, that feels very counterintuitive. So I think the productive as you define it in that title is not the same productive

as what you were talking about, David, where you're cranking out more widgets because of the technology that's available to you. And as I'm thinking about like the creative and the resilient piece of this, you're right, Jocelyn, you can't define or quantify, I was 9 out of 10 creative today or 8 out of 10 resilient. But those are the things that really make a difference in the long run. Yeah, I was trying to hold up air quotes, I guess, when I used that. But what I was thinking about it, kind of ironically, in the way that my friend Merlin Mann used to talk about that stuff in terms of drinking salt water, you know, it's the more you drink, the more you want. It doesn't still doesn't solve the problem. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's that, that comparison of sort of like, you know, the slot machine or, you know, a gambling

addiction, right? You kind of get those little dopamine hits from checking your notifications or whatnot, but it doesn't, there's at no point at which it's satisfying, right? Yeah. And it seems like every week there's something new, you know, there's a new, there's a new source of dopamine thrown at us. Yeah. Well, and I think that's what's, that is what's so challenging for people is that, you know, it's, it's not like, oh, okay. Like if I just figure out all the, you know, it's not like, oh, okay, like, if I just figure out all the, you know, little tricks and traps of the apps that I use now, I'll be okay, because new things are being introduced all the time, you know, and I mean, I think, like, what's happened, the kind of the arc of Slack as a business tool is like such a great example of that, you know,

it was one of those things that their original slogan was, be less busy. That's like, that's how it was advertised, right? But you're right. And it's funny now. It seems funny, right? Because, you know, the idea was to streamline and to make things more efficient. And that's kind of, you know, the noble goal of most of these tools that are introduced into the workplace. But then you look at it, you know, I'm not sure how many years ago that was now, five, six, seven years later, you know, and it's become a huge source of distraction and busyness for people and not really intentionally. But, you know, and when I give talks and stuff like Slack is one of the things that people ask me about most frequently. They're like, what do I do about this? Right.

Because they don't have the power within their workplace to say, like, I don't want to use this tool. You know, but that's it's just one example of how these things that, you know, there's just new tools coming out all the time that are creating like, you know, really impacting our behavior in deep ways. And we don't even know what that way is, you know, maybe for a couple of years. And then we have to figure out kind of how to solve for it when it's really become embedded into our workflow in a serious way. And that's just like a really challenging ongoing thing that we all have to deal with now. Yeah, definitely. I want to ask you, going back to productive and creative, because you had on your podcast, I think it was episode five, Austin Kleon, who wrote a book which really impacted me.

I used to think that I am not creative. And when I read Steel Like an Artist, it basically gave me license to be creative because I was just connecting dots in different ways now. I didn't have to worry about something being completely original. And I just listened to today, you released it earlier this month, but you had an episode called Transformation is Hard. You talk a little bit about your journey from working with 99U, I believe, to going out on your own. And you talk about some of the things and some of the

tension that you experienced as you were transitioning to creating things. So can you speak to that a little bit? How do you see the balance between productive and creative as it plays out in your life? Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I mean, I think, you know, working for yourself is so much different, you know, than working inside a company structure. And for me, that necessitated, I think, a whole suite of habit changes. And part of it is because just working on my own, I'm much more free actually to do kind of deep, creative work because I don't have these sort of office distractions or busy work that so much of us are, you know, kind of required to be consumed by. But that required me to really figure out how to, I think, like show up every day in a much sharper way, even, you know, because when you're doing so much of that deep creative problem solving, you really have to kind of be in tip top shape. You know what I mean? You can't

like have had a bad night's sleep. You know, you can't have like really had a couple of drinks the night before. Like you have to kind of show up in sort of fighting shape. And so for me, you know, thinking about that stuff and how to show up and also how to I was kind of burnt out when I had left that when I had left that job. So kind of recovering from that was part of it. And all that stuff was was really what ended up in this course that I made reset, you know, about just kind of thinking about what are the core principles of productivity? productivity? You know, how do I want to move through my day? How can I align with my energy? You know, those were all things that I was kind of like tackling with and figuring out as I was making that transition. I feel like so much of the battle here is being aware of the battle. Whether you're working for somebody or on your own, you've got to, I love that saying, showing up in fighting shape. I think that is something you have to take this stuff seriously if you're going to get past it. Yeah. Well, and I think that the nice thing about thinking about

things that way is that you can also recognize and be comfortable with your limitations. You know, so one of the things I talk about in the course is this idea, you know, and this is not my idea. It's backed up by research as well as tons of different anecdotal examples that, you know, you really only can exert like concerted, you know, kind of high performance attention for about three to four hours a day, four and a half hours max. Right. And I think most people, you know, they're not necessarily doing it, but they would like kind of like to think they can do that for eight to 10 hours a day. And so there's something, right. There's something really comforting about just

kind of being like, oh, okay, like I can only do this for this X amount of hours. But then also being like, wow, if I show up in really great shape for those hours, you know, I can produce something really incredible. And then, you know, I can go on, you know, it's not like we all, we don't all have, you know, eight hours, 10 hours a day of like high attention work to do it. You know, there's lots of little stuff, you know, you have to do or lots of more mindless stuff you have to do. But, you know, I think so when you embrace those limitations, it also is easier to just understand where you want to show up, like in that kind of top shape, if that makes sense. I've been doing a thing lately where I pick one priority for the next day because I plan my day

the night before. And I know exactly what you're talking about. I've read the books too. I understand the limited attention. There's a part of me that refuses to accept it. And I still have days where the night before I will plan myself eight hours of hard work and I am inevitably disappointed and unhappy the next day. And this process of trying to pick just one thing for the next day, I mean, there's obviously more than one thing I'm going to do, but one thing that I really want to nail, and that's a way to force myself into that

because I usually can get that done and I don't feel miserable at the end of the day. But it is funny how we kid ourselves about this stuff. Yeah, and I think I'm not immune to that at all myself. Of course, you know, I still do that all the time, you know, where you get overambitious for the next day and then you end up feeling a little bit, you know, deflated at the end. I mean, it's a constant, you know, it's a constant challenge for all of us. But I think my thing is, you know, you do the sort of one most important task, which I do that as well. But I think about it explicitly, like in terms of thinking about when

my peak time is for cognitive performance, which for me is from about 10 a.m. to 12 p.m. Or I could stretch it to maybe 1.30 p.m. So it's kind of like, okay, what am I going to do in that, you know, prime time where I can be the most, you know, sort of cognitively powerful, the most creative, you know, what I'm going to put in there. And if, you know, if I get that thing done, even if all the other stuff slides or, you know, kind of goes sideways because there's an interruption, then you still, as you say, you know, can at least feel some satisfaction that you got some of that high-impact work done. And that's why when I hear from listeners that talk about how they spend the morning having coffee and doing email, and I feel like for a lot of people, those morning hours are golden. And when you just squander them away on silly things, it just breaks my heart. Well, actually, that's one of the things I love about your course, Jocelyn, is I've heard that idea of the biological primetime before, but you tend to kind of rebrand

these things in ways that make way more sense to me. So you call it the golden hours. David tapped right into that. Yeah. And one thing that, as you know, Mike, what I do in that specific lesson where we talk about circadian rhythms and talk about the golden hours, which is nice because it's just like a simple concept. You're like, oh, okay, my golden hours, like what are those, you know, and you can just grab right onto it and it kind of sticks in your brain and you can work with it. But, you know, as I go through what that daily circadian rhythm is, I also go through, to your point, David, how literally the way that almost everyone works is like the exact opposite of the ideal way to work with your circadian rhythm, you know,

and so much of that is due to, as you mentioned, email and meetings and different kind of technological impacts. And it's, you know, when you kind of really like walk through that and see those two things juxtaposed, I think it's kind of powerful. It's very powerful. I'm kind of curious. I mean, your course kind of speaks to the person who has control of their workday. But if you're somebody who's in a nine to five, do you have any advice for applying that concept of golden hours to somebody who has someone who's saying this is what you need to do? Yeah. Well, so there's a concept that I talk about. I do some Q&As throughout the course. And this question comes up a lot. And I really only

recommend that people take the course if it's not that they need to be, you know, full time on their own, but they need to have some level of autonomy over their day. If they have no autonomy over their day, it's just going to be kind of frustrating. And just having no autonomy over your day is frustrating whether or not you decide to take my course. But just sort of as a fact. Yeah. So there's this concept that came up in a podcast interview that I did on Hurry Slowly with this woman, Tammy Foreman, that I really love and I think about a lot. And it's this concept of core hours. Um, what she talked about is actually being introduced in her workplace, I want to say in like the 80s when she was working in publishing. And the idea was just that they had a certain time, and I think it was 10am to 3pm, that everyone kind of had to be like in the office and, you know, available to like be in a meeting or something if they needed to be. And around those hours, those core hours of 10 a.m. to 3 p.m., people could be flexible. So they could make up, you know, the rest of their eight-hour day in whatever way they wanted to. So if they wanted to show up at, you know, 7 a.m. and then leave at 3 p.m., you know, to like go pick up their kids, they could do that. Or, you know, if they wanted

to roll in at 10 a.m. and then, you know, work afterwards until, what would that be, 6 p.m., they could do that. And I think that's a really interesting concept to kind of translate onto the way that we work now, and particularly maybe just like within a small team that you might work in. You know, it's a little hard, it'd be hard to get traction within like a larger organization, but you might be able to do it within a small team of thinking about like, could you all get on the same page about a certain amount of core hours? I think actually like 11 a.m. to 4 p.m. would be a good time for most people where it's like, okay, this is when I'm available on Slack. Like this is when you can come up and tap me on the shoulder. Like this is when you can

schedule a meeting. But then outside of those hours, then you get a kind of structure to things. So and it works well because like for the golden hours thing, you know, some people are on the earlier side. So in that scenario, like then 9 a.m. to 11 a.m., like you could do your focus stuff. Someone who is more of a night owl, you know, could do their focus stuff after the core hours from like 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. So there's a little flex there. So I think that's an interesting concept to think about in the workplace in terms of, you know, allowing people to be accessible, whether it's for meetings or for, you know, group chats, but like circumscribing it and limiting it in a way that allows people to have different kind of focus blocks for themselves. I think that is great advice. And I think what's really powerful about that, and I'm glad that you answered it that way, is that even if you don't have control over everything, then the natural

reaction, I'll just talk about myself, I guess, because I've been in that situation, is to just say, well, I can't control this then, and I'm just going to chuck it. Whatever happens, happens, and I'll just deal with it. But if you think about it, you do have some locus of control over how you spend your time if you view it the right way. And that's really what we're trying to get at with Focused is this whole idea of being intentional. You kind of talked about this in a recent episode with Scott Barry Kaufman about this whole idea of being forceful versus being intentional. And I'm kind of curious where you see the line there, because I think a lot of productivity is kind of focusing on the forceful, I'm going to go

take these hours from my calendar and everybody else who wants to meet with me during that time, tough luck. But you don't have to have like a me versus you mentality in order to apply intentionality, I don't think. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think we just, I think that people either are afraid of or don't feel like they can start a dialogue about this stuff in their workplace, but I think it's really essential that we do so. I mean, I think, you know, I think once you open that up, you know, you get people talking, it's like you see that people really feel like out of control, you know, or they really feel upset and they feel upset because they just want to do like good work and they don't have time to do good work, you know? So I think,

especially when, you know, you can bring that up with your team or you can bring that up with your boss and say like, hey, you know, I've been thinking about like ways, you know, you can frame it in terms of productivity, which like everyone kind of always gets on board with, you know, like I've been thinking about ways to be more productive and like, you know, here's some certain things that are happening in our team dynamics that, you know, I feel like are holding me back and like holding all of us back and, you know, maybe proposing some different ideas. I mean, it's, you know, it's challenging to like create a space and figure out how to necessarily broach those subjects sometimes. we just kind of have to start doing it or, you know, we're just going to kind of keep going down this path of, you know, increasingly busy, increasingly distracted in our workplaces. So I think we kind of have to start taking that lead. And to go back to your point in that,

you know, that interview with Scott Barry Kaufman, it's like such a subtle topic. So it's really difficult to, you know, kind of distill down. But one of the key distinction he was making, we were talking about, for those of you listening, we were talking about the quiet ego and this idea of, you know, not having a loud ego, but really quieting things down and the qualities that go with that. And this is based around some research that he did. And there are four qualities that kind of define the quiet ego, which is sort of mindful awareness, you know, being present in what you're doing, an inclusive attitude. So thinking you are not like sort of a lonely individual, not connected to other people, but you're embedded in humanity, you're part of tribe humanity, perspective taking, the ability to put yourself in other people's shoes, and then finally having a growth mindset. But the interesting thing was, is that all of that really needed to be offset, not so much with forcefulness, which although I did talk about that in the wrap up of the show, but with assertiveness, right? So you're very connected to other people, you're very present, you're able to adopt other perspectives,

but at the same time, and this is a quality that doesn't always, these don't always go together, you're also able to be assertive. And that, I think, really plays into this idea that we were just talking about, about being able to broach these conversations, you know, and say, like, you know, kind of take that out of you. Like, we're all in this together. Like, here's my issue. I'm looking at it from your perspective.

I can see your issue. But, like, be assertive enough to, you know, propose some possible changes or just open up that dialogue. This episode of Focus is brought to you by ExpressVPN. High speed, secure, and anonymous VPN service. Get three months free with a one-year package. If you're like me,

it seems like every time you go on the internet, you read about another cyber crime or data breach. But deep down in your heart, don't you think that's never going to be you? It's hard to imagine someone trying to get hold of your information. But the bad news is stealing data from you when you're on a public Wi-Fi is trivially easy, and bad guys do it all the time to make money. If you leave your internet connection unencrypted, your passwords and credit card numbers are vulnerable. But there's something you can do to protect yourself from cyber criminals,

and that's to start using ExpressVPN. ExpressVPN works by securing and anonymizing your internet browsing. It encrypts your data and hides your public IP address with easy-to-use apps that run seamlessly in the background of your device. You can turn on ExpressVPN protection with just one click. Then you're free to safely surf on public Wi-Fi without being snooped on or having your personal data stolen. ExpressVPN is rated the number one VPN service by

TechRadar, and it even comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Because I work from home so often, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that I need to escape on my fancy bicycle or drive to Starbucks just to get some work done and get out of the house. to Starbucks just to get some work done and get out of the house. Every time I do that, I use ExpressVPN. Whether I'm on a Mac or an iOS device, using ExpressVPN is as easy as opening the application and pressing one button. And then I can connect to the Wi-Fi with peace of mind because I know everything is going through the ExpressVPN service. No hacker is going to get my data with ExpressVPN at my back. For less than $7 a month, you can get the same ExpressVPN protection that I have. If you ever use public Wi-Fi and want to keep the bad guys away from your data,

you need ExpressVPN. So go to expressvpn.com slash focused to learn more. Protect your online activity today and find out how you can get three months free at ExpressVPN.com slash focused. That's E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-P-N.com slash F-O-C-U-S-E-D for three months free with a one-year package. Our thanks to ExpressVPN for their support of Focused and all of RelayFM. The whole idea of assertiveness

is really interesting to me. I'm currently reading a book called Quiet by Susan Cain. I identify as an introvert. I don't know, David Jocelyn, where you guys identify, but there's kind of this, they call it a culture of personality where the people who are extroverted tend to be viewed as the leaders.

But you can be introverted and be assertive. You can develop the skills to learn to stand up for your needs and your wants. And it's something that I think really isn't stressed enough. I'm glad that you touched on that. Yeah. Well, I'm an INTP myself, so I'm an introvert, but I'm more on that side of the spectrum. It's all spectrum, right? But yeah, I mean, I found that very much to be true for myself in my workplace. And I think you're right. Extroverts often are seen as leaders and end up in leadership positions. And one of the things that created a lot of challenges for me with that was like, I would be talking to my boss and he would, extroverts really like to brainstorm live and then make a decision like live, you know,

and then be done. And introverts hate that, right? We want to like go away. We want to think about something for a little while. So one of my practices of being assertive with my boss was that i had to when that would happen and it took me a while to figure this out i had to say like okay like i understand what you're saying um for myself like i'm going to need a little bit of time to think about this like let me go away and kind of consider the options. And then, you know, I'll come back to you with an answer tomorrow. Because, and that was kind of trial and error, because I would sort of get swept away by his sort of extroverted tide. And then I would make a decision that I was uncomfortable with. And, you know, so I had to sort of train myself to be more assertive and just to stick up for like, this is my style. This is how I want to approach

this. And to be able to represent that clearly and, you know, like a sort is my style, this is how I want to approach this, and to be able to represent that clearly in, you know, like a sort of nice way, not in like some weird passive aggressive way, so that, you know, we could work together in a comfortable way. I think so often at work, situations dealing with people that either interrupt you a lot or people who push you to make answers before you're ready, The idea of scheduling time and scheduled time and doing it really from a place of love to say, hey, we have a lot of things, like either you've got a lot of things you want to talk to me about, or we've got some big decisions to make. Let's set some time on the calendar. And that solves so many problems. First of all, it gives you that space as

an introvert or just someone who wants to consider this time to really develop where you stand on it. And it also removes all those interruptions that get in the way of the golden hour. I mean, there's just so many problems you solve. I'm just thinking as we're talking about the people who are listening to this who have a jobby job and have to report to people. If you can even just bring that degree of control into it, you can really help your situation. Yeah. I mean, I think at the most basic level, just, you know, asking that every meeting have an explicit agenda, you know, that is stated beforehand, right? So you can think about it and kind of get yourself together as an introvert. And everyone can also be on the same page about, you know, what is trying to be accomplished. So it could actually be efficient as well.

And, you know, as part of that agenda, asking everyone to bring an answer to a specific question and then starting the meeting with that so that and just going around the table before he as a manager would really speak. And just kind of having everyone in the room literally like physically have a voice as the meeting started. And he felt like that really changed the quality of the meeting. You know, so you didn't automatically slip into these roles of like, these are the people who talk and these are the people who are quiet, that everyone got to have a voice from the start. And that kind of started to change the quality, which is kind of a nice idea as well. Oh my gosh, I love that idea. I was in a meeting just the other day, where literally the meeting was going for an hour and it's happening on Skype. And the person who is talking has to say, so-and-so, you still there? Because they haven't said anything the whole time.

That's such a great idea. And I was just thinking about a meeting I was at recently where there was a person that just their solution to any contrary opinion was just to restate their position, but 10 decibels louder. And that happens. I actually am fortunate that there aren't that many people in my life like that, but I became aware of it about halfway through the process. And it was just fascinating to observe it. Just got louder and louder and louder. And it worked. I mean, people in the room started to, you know, started to agree just to get them to shut up. of idea of like amplifying. And they were specifically talking about women in meetings because, you know, they would find that they would go to these meetings with the president, you know, X amount of men, X amount of women, and the women wouldn't really, you know, wouldn't really get to talk or they would get to talk, but their points weren't heard. And so what they

started doing was amplifying. So they would, you know, one woman would make a point and then, you know, if it was kind of getting like then talked over or everyone was kind of ignoring it, then the other woman would be like kind of repeat it and credit her with it and, you know, sort of amplify it. you do have more of a voice in meetings that you can kind of, you know, make a practice of trying to amplify other people's points when you see that happening to kind of give them more of a voice if they're not able to, you know, kind of step up and like forcefully rearticulate themselves again to really like fight for a good idea. And, you know, underlying all of this is the assumption that everybody in the room wants to get the best idea out. And for the extroverts, well, I mean, okay, so like I said, it's a joke in my family that I always say from a place of love. But I mean it. I think people in general try to do the right thing.

And if you're listening to this and you know you follow on the E side of that equation, if you're extroverted, are you giving credit to introverted people who have a harder time speaking up? I mean, because just because someone's introverted doesn't mean their ideas aren't better than yours. And quite often they are. I mean, those need to get on the table. And there's a lot of challenges here. I think that kind of speaks to the idea of the growth mindset that you mentioned, Jocelyn. And in my opinion, if you have somebody that's extroverted, but they've embraced a growth mindset, they know they don't have all the answers. So they'll be looking for those better solutions from other people. But if you don't have a growth

mindset, you kind of view that stuff as an attack on your natural talent and ability. So that would probably be the place that I recommend people start. Carol Dweck wrote a great book on that called Mindset, which just rocked my world. I think that we've come across the official focused drinking term is growth mindset. There we go. Because it comes out just about every show but appropriately well and i want one more thing to say on that point is um something actually that i talk about in the course reset um that kind of came out of a conversation actually that i had with the designer

paula share who's you know one of the most well-known, one of the most well-known designers, one of the most well-known female designers, is this idea of, and I think it pertains to meetings and just kind of how you interact with people generally, is this idea of trying to make sure you're pushing yourself out of expert mode. And I talk about it in the portion of the course that's really about kind of sparking inspiration and sparking inspiration explicitly with other people and in conversations with other people. And I think that, you know, we all like to be in expert mode, right? Like we like to know what we like to sound like we know what we're talking about. We have certain things we like to talk about certain things we said before we thought sounded good. We want to say them again sometimes, you know. And so it's really easy to fall into this expert mode and also in meetings,

right, where you're like, I'm the authority, here's, you know, and you kind of say what you have to say. But honestly, like, for you as an individual, and if you are a growth-minded person, as you say, like, no new ideas emerge for you when you're in expert mode, you know. All you get is, like, the sound of your own voice, you know, and the repetitive expertise that you've already accrued. So I kind of pitch, you know, that kind of Buddhist idea of beginner's mind kind of as against expert mode and trying, you know, that you want to, you know, be shifting between those modes.

And something that someone said, it was Thomas Page McBee, who was also talking about this idea of starting meetings with a question was, you know, asked, like, when you're with someone who has some additional knowledge, you know, to kind of be like, well, so you're the expert here, like, you tell me, you know, and this idea of really, like, kind of stepping off your expert soapbox and kind of handing, you know, the baton to someone else and making them feel empowered is, I think, kind of an interesting concept to explore as well. Yeah, that's a really good point. You know, one of my mentors told me one time, and I'm sure he got it somewhere else, but if you're the biggest person in your group, it's time to change your group. Well, if you're not the biggest person in your group, but you're acting like an expert, you're not going to benefit from being in that other group anyways. I do want to come back,

though, because David, you mentioned a couple different times from a place of love. And Jocelyn, you have this idea of a heart-centered approach to productivity, which I think is very much in line with that. Do you want to explain a little bit what that is? most productivity advice, you know, it's predicated on this idea that you could be doing something better and kind of as a result that you're falling short in some way. And I could go on this kind of whole diatribe about how that relates to capitalism. And the goal of most self-help advice is just to make you feel inadequate so that you, you know, go buy more self-help products. But I won't go down that rabbit hole. Eleven billion dollars a year a year. I'll go down it for you. Suffice to say, I think most of the productivity advice that we consume kind of feeds into these two toxic narratives. And the first is this idea that you're not ready, that you really need to do

some more learning or get some more tips before you're prepared to do whatever the thing it is that you want to do. You know, start a creative project, start a business, reorganize your daily routine, whatever it is. And so it puts you in this kind of like constant student slash apprentice mode, which is really easy to slip into when you literally have a million resources at your fingertips on the internet, you know, through blogs and podcasts, whatnot. So that's one end of the spectrum. And then on the other end of the spectrum is this idea that you're not hustling hard enough, right? You're not moving fast enough. You're not growing exponentially enough. And we're soaking up this particular message like constantly, right? This sort of

news about unicorn startups and exponential growth in the media, even these kind of almost like hectoring motivational quotes, you know, like good things come to those who hustle, you know, productivity tips about how to multiply your time or do things faster, more efficiently, which we kind of touched on at the top. And so one end of the spectrum, right, you have kind of like, you're not ready. And then the other end, you have the equivalent, you know, of sort of you're not fast enough. And those are the messages that we get like again and again and again. It just creates this constant feeling of inadequacy. It's not you're not fast enough. It's you will never be fast enough. It's even worse.

Right, right, right. And so that it just reinforces this, you know, this inadequacy and, and, you know, keeps us in this modality of, as we were almost talking about earlier, right, making these sort of absurd, unattainable to-do lists. And then we beat ourselves up for not being able to complete them. And it's just really toxic. And so this is kind of a capable, productive, creative person and that all they need is to be reminded that there is this sort of more humane, heart- more forgiving with themselves that it's okay to set boundaries and stick to them and i really consciously made the decision to place a strong emphasis on not making people feel sort of less than or inadequate but to instead be like you know what like you already have the tools you need it's just that we got carried away with all of these developments in technology and we just kind of forgot how to work in this more humane way. And I do a survey at the end of the course. And so far, like it seems like it's actually having that effect on people, which is really wonderful. calm and in control of their workday and that they feel like they have permission to work in this way that feels really intuitive and natural. And, you know, they kind of had this inkling like to work

in that way before, but like they were sort of suppressing it or they forgot about it. And so it's been really validating for people. And that's that's kind of what I wanted was just to sort of provide like clarity and even really comfort. more. Maybe you want to create an online store. Maybe you want to create a portfolio. Maybe you want to create a blog. Squarespace is the all-in-one platform that lets you do just that with nothing to install, no patches to worry about, and no upgrades needed. You don't have to worry about any of that stuff. You can just make your thing because Squarespace has got it covered. They also have award-winning 24-7 customer support if you need any help. They let you quickly and easily grab a unique domain name and all of those award-winning templates are beautifully designed for you to show off your great ideas. One of the things I really love about Squarespace is how easy

it is to set up an e-commerce store. I've built these from scratch before, and it's a lot of work and a lot of headaches. But when I was working with somebody who wanted to sell Reclaim Barnwood through a store on his website, we used Squarespace, and I could not believe how easy it was to do so. And best of all, the person that I built the site for, who was definitely not technically inclined, could maintain it themselves. They knew how to upload pictures, they knew how to create new listings, and Squarespace handled all of the complicated payment and shipping stuff automatically for him. What's really cool about this though is that they didn't know they wanted

an e-commerce store when they started. They got into it and they started building out their site and then they realized that they needed more functionality and Squarespace made it incredibly easy to upgrade the functionality of their website to meet their needs. Now maybe you don't need an online store to start with. Squarespace plans for you then can start at just $12 a month, but you can start a trial with no credit card required by going to squarespace.com slash focused. When you decide to sign up, use the offer code focused F-O-C-U-S-E-D to get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain and to show your support for this show. So once again, that's squarespace.com slash focused and the code focused to get 10% off your first purchase. We thank Squarespace for their support. Squarespace,

make your next move, make your next website. You know, I feel like we've been talking about the reset course, but we haven't really explained it. This is a, it's a great thing that you're doing. Can you just explain the basis or the basics, I guess I would say, of the Reset program for the listeners? Yeah. So, I mean, basically it's a four-week program that teaches you how to work in a way, I usually say, that's intentional, that's energizing, and that's inspiring. But what that distills down to is really like, how do you work at a sustainable pace? So it's kind of, you know, we're all working in this overwhelmed, over busy,

overstimulated way, which inevitably leads to burnout. And in fact, you know, there really is a rising level of people saying that they're burnt out, that they're regularly exhausted from work. The last stats on that from the General Social Survey in America, we're at about 50%. Like 50% of people are feeling exhausted from work. So it's like something's got to give, right? So Reset is kind of an antidote to that. It's a four-week program about that. Like how do I work in a sustainable way where I can feel energized? I feel like I I you know can feel energized I feel like I can focus on meaningful work I feel like I can be creative and it's it's pretty simple like it's divided you know into sort of 12 lessons which are divided into four phases and the focus of

those four phases is one is on intention and motivation you know so really like how do you set goals and then stay engaged with projects for the long haul, which is one of our great challenges in this world of like kind of instant gratification and distraction. And then the second phase is about energy and attention, something we've kind of already touched on a little bit, you know, today, like how do you align your energy and your attention with the natural rhythms of your body so that you can, you know, kind of work in this very powerful, very focused way. And then the third section is on specifically technology and boundaries.

So a lot of very, very tactical stuff about working with email and your calendar and your to-do list and setting boundaries around those things and like literally like language to use and kind of mechanics of saying no. And then the final section is on inspiration and ideas. And that's really about, you know, creating space for creativity, building a routine that makes space for that, and also kind of adjusting the way that you, you know, consume different inputs, you know, let's say podcasts, media, news, etc. To make sure that you're kind of creating space for those creative ideas to percolate up. So that's kind of the whole, you know, the sort of helicopter view of the course.

So you obviously have gone through some of this stuff yourself. You talked a little bit in that episode about being burnt out when you left your previous job. I'm kind of curious, how did you navigate through that? What did that process look like? How long did it take you, that sort of thing, before you kind of found your stride and your sustainable pace? you kind of found your stride and your sustainable pace? Well, it definitely took years. And I would say also that I think it's, you know, finding a sustainable pace is an unfortunately ongoing and never-ending project, right? You sort of find it and you lose it and then you find it again. So I don't want to misrepresent that,

it's not like, oh, now I'm good, smooth sailing forever. But what happened was, yeah, I mean, I was running this kind of smaller arm of a startup. The startup itself is called Behance. The thing I was running was called 99U. And, you know, it was a conference and a book series that I made and online website with interviews and articles and tips, a variety of different things. And what had happened was essentially, I think I'd been there for about four years. And, you know, things were going really well. I had like a lot of autonomy to kind of create new projects. And I just went like crazy. Like I just like was like, we're going to

do all this stuff. Like just, you know, decided of my own volition to like 3x my workload, basically, and take on all these ambitious new projects which were amazing projects but I ended up just completely running myself into the ground in the process and you know it's funny like about and you know and so it was I just had kind of this you know sort of come to Jesus moment where I was like, okay, like, I can't this, we cannot work this way anymore. And, you know, just started started to adapt my, my flow a little bit. And what was so interesting is even like six months after that, that I decided to kind of start slowing down. I remember like, you know, kind of laying in my bed and feeling this energy almost like I was like vibrating. And this is like not an uncommon sensation. And what I realized was that I think, or this is my theory, I don't know if it's like medically true, but I think that what was happening was that I was still releasing so much adrenaline from like working at this, you know, kind of crazy like pace where you're really sort of in fight or flight mode, right? Throughout most

of your day for about four years and my body like hadn't gotten the memo yet you know it was like oh like we're still doing that right and we weren't and so it's just like i had this feeling of like pumping adrenaline but like not really needing it um and i say that because i i think that's just a really it's sort of like a really palpable image of like what happens when you, you know, work at this pace that's really strenuous for a really long time. It starts to like really have an impact on your body and not in a positive way. So, you know, anyway, that was just sort of, you know, a red flag for me that this was going to be like a little bit of a longer process. that this was going to be like a little bit of a longer process.

You know, just on that point, it's funny because we've talked to a lot of folks on the show who went through that where they were burning themselves out and they had serious medical consequences. But I've never heard of it in terms of the after effects like that before. But, you know, I guess there really is a detox that you have to kind of put yourself through if you really go far down that before. But, you know, I guess there really is, there is a detox that you have to kind of put yourself through if you really go far down that road. Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's because I think what happens now is we're so out of our bodies. And that's actually a real theme that I talk about throughout the course as well, is this kind of idea of getting back into your body and getting back in touch with your body, which is, of course, part and parcel of kind of aligning your energy and your attention with that. But I think because we're, you know, so engaged with our phones and so engaged with our computers, and that's just a really heady intellectual space. And it's a space that takes us literally like out of our bodies. You know, you're not, it's not about the awareness of your yourself and physical space, right? It's like you're in some weird ether internet space. And so I feel like we've become so disconnected from our body that is really quite toxic. And so, as you say, then you end up,

you know, when you actually recognize that something's wrong, something has been wrong for a while. And then, you know, and then it's quite a lot of work to kind of roll back and kind of get yourself back into shape. Yeah, so I'm curious then,

I mean, obviously you've gone through this stuff and I'm seeing anyways how this has shaped the reset course and probably Hurry Slowly as well. But at what point in that journey did you decide that you were going to make this course and you conquered imposter syndrome where it's like, I'm still going through this stuff. I don't know this stuff, but I'm going to try to teach it to somebody else so that they don't have to make the same mistakes I did. Well, you know, that's interesting. So there's actually a very specific moment. There's a very specific activity that I did that kind of moved me into the space where, and it's apt that you

approach it as, you know, or frame it as imposter syndrome, because I think that, you know, so much of what I do and had done up to that point was about collecting other people's ideas and showcasing other people's ideas, right? I curated a conference. I made a whole book series that has like 20 different essays in each book, right? I have a podcast where I interview guests, right? So it's very much in this habit of showcasing other people's ideas. So it's a big shift for me to be like, I'm going to take the stage, right, and teach you something. And the way that that shift came about, actually, and it wasn't very long ago, like I decided to make the course early last year. So I launched the course in January

2019. I decided I'd been, I had thought about making a course for years before that, but I decided in February of 2018 to make it and then really kind of dove into it. But it was easy to dive into in the sense that it was literally about 10 years of experience that I had already lived through to kind of condense into the content. of, you know, condense into the content. But in any case, what happened was I decided to do, I was supposed to actually go on a meditation retreat, a week-long meditation retreat. And I couldn't do it because I had just gotten a new puppy. And I was like, well, I can't go on like, no, it was a 10-day meditation retreat. I was like, I can't go on a 10-day meditation retreat and like leave this poor scared dog, you know, alone by itself. So, but I was thinking about, okay, what's a way that I can kind of do, you know, not abandon this idea entirely. And the thing that was so, so I was thinking about, why do you want to go on the retreat? And what's the thing that's like the most disturbing to you

about going on the meditation retreat? And for me, the thing that was the most disturbing about going on a meditation retreat was not reading. I've been reading every day, many times a day, you know, since I knew how to read, right? At least since I was, you know, 10 years old, I read like every night before bed. Like I read, you know, I read by the microwave things. I read on the subway. I read constantly, right? So this idea of not reading was very disturbing to me. So what I decided to do was to do five days of essentially like a inputs retreat or an inputs detox, as I call it. So I did no email, pretty much no text messaging, no internet, no reading, no Netflix, no podcast, no news. I could talk to people. It wasn't like I was being a hermit. I could go out in the world, talk to people, go for a walk in the park, listen to music.

I just couldn't be shoving other people's ideas into my brain in the many forms in which we do that, right? Whether it's TV or movies or podcasts or reading. And basically doing that practice allowed me to kind of shift from this student mode into teacher mode, which was kind of amazing. That's a phenomenal story. I love that. Well, you know, it is amazing how hard we work to ignore what's going on in our heads. That's the whole purpose. Well, I don't want to say that, but it's a large reason why a lot of us meditate is to try and reconnect with that. And it sounds like you did it. I did. Well, and I think the other factor, and this is something that I talk about in that final phase of the course, which is about inspiration ideas, which you probably haven't gotten to yet, Mike. This concept of inputs and outputs is really a really core one to the course.

And it's really calling people to pay attention to just how many things you are shoving into your brain on a daily basis. And we could take podcasts as a specific example. Like most people who listen to podcasts, the stats that I've seen on this, they're listening to podcasts in addition to like whatever they did before they listened to podcasts or before podcasts existed. You know, so they might be adding like, you know, one or two or five or 10 hours a week of listening to podcasts where they previously did, who knows what they did, you know, nothing. Maybe they could, you know, maybe they were just cooking without a podcast. Maybe they were folding their laundry without a podcast. Maybe they were on a run without a podcast. No disrespect to

podcasts, of course, I have one myself. But it's an interesting example of that, of that, right? And the ways in which we've just started to consume and consume, you know, like, let's say like a cathedral for my ideas that previously had not existed before. And it was like, oh, oh, we have a place to go now. Like, and then they like came in. This episode of Focused is brought to you by Timing, the app that tracks your time automatically instead of manually. In today's fast-moving world, the next distraction is right around the corner, which makes it harder and harder to stay on track with your projects and determine how much you really worked. That's why you need an app to help you stay on top of your time. But manual time tracking can interrupt your workflow. Timing, though, is different.

Timing automates your time tracking and saves you as much time as humanly possible. First, it automatically tracks how you spend your time on your Mac, broken down by app, website, even document. Timing's functionality is similar to iOS 12's screen time, but gives you those features on your Mac. And manual tracking and adjustments are still possible with Timing's automated approach. Plus, it looks awesome in dark mode. Now, when you're tracking your time automatically using Timing, you can end up with a lot of data to work through. So, Timing lets you use drag and drop to create rules that

automatically categorize your time. It will also make suggestions to fill in gaps in your timeline so you never forget to track something like a meeting. It can even automatically ask you what you did whenever you return to your Mac. And with the automatic sync feature, your track time will magically appear across all of your Macs. So even when you work on the go with your MacBook, you'll have the full picture on your iMac once you get home. Now if you're like me, you probably tried tracking your time previously using one of those apps where you had to start and stop the timers, but that never really stuck. For me, I would start a travel timer and then I would forget to stop it. And then by the

time I thought of it, it said that I had been in the car for 13 hours, resulting in a lot of useless information for me to comb through. But when I started using timing, I didn't have to think about all of that. It just tracked the way that I use my Mac and it showed me some surprising results. For example, I would sit down to write in Ulysses and occasionally would get distracted by Twitter instead. So I would sit down for a two to three hour writing session, but the data was right there for me in timing that would show me that I had only spent an hour using the Ulysses app and the rest of it I had been distracted by something else. And it's really not the fact that I wasn't doing what I meant to do that was valuable. It was

recognizing that it had happened so I could make the adjustments and make sure that I quit those apps ahead of time so that I didn't have to deal with those distractions. And timing makes it incredibly easy to do that. They give you all of that information in a nice dashboard. It even gives you a productivity score based on the ratings that you assign to different activities. So I could say that my writing time in Ulysses was very productive, but my time spent browsing Twitter was unproductive. And timing is going to average those things and give me a percent score to show me how productive I was. That percent score really is kind of an arbitrary number because I can assign the values for myself, but it does kind of give me a baseline for how I'm doing and shows me whether I had a

really good day or a really good week or if I tended to be distracted and I really didn't get a whole lot done. I love timing because it's so easy to use. You can just open it, it runs in the background, and you don't have to think about it again. Now, Timing is so confident that you're going to love their fuss-free approach that they offer a totally free trial. You can download the free 14-day trial by going to timingapp.com slash focused to save 10% when you decide to purchase. That's timingapp.com slash f-o-c-u-s-e-D. Timing. Stop worrying about time and focus on doing your best work instead. We thank Timing for their support of Focused and all of RelayFM. Yeah, I think that kind of leads into something else I wanted to ask you about from that episode that you released on transformation being hard.

You were talking about the caterpillar soup section. And you said that percolation is an essential part of transformation. And I think there's a couple ways that you can apply that. Number one would be not to judge yourself against where you think you should be by now, which is kind of what you spoke to earlier in this episode. But maybe another way to apply that

would be with these ideas that you're constantly getting exactly what you were just talking about, Jocelyn, giving your brain the time to kind of synthesize this stuff and make that switch from student mode to teacher mode, as you put it, where you're taking ownership of these things and you're putting your own stamp and twist on them because you're letting your brain own them instead of just feeding it something else all the time. Yeah. And I mean, I think the two, I think you mentioned both of the kind of core premises of that idea of like letting your ideas percolate, which is time and space.

you know, we have so many ways right now to share our ideas or our images instantaneously, you know, primarily through social media, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, etc. But there's many other ways. And so we have this impetus to the minute we have a thought to share it, right? But then it's kind of like you just gave it away a little bit, you know, and it doesn't have this time to kind of, you know, sit there and ripen and maybe, you know, add some depth to it, you know. So we kind of a lot of ways are kind of tossing off our ideas in this very like shallow way that doesn't allow them to kind of really marinate into something deeper. it doesn't allow them to kind of really marinate into something deeper. So I think if you, you know, kind of, let's say, close off those channels, almost like put a lid on the container of your ideas, rather than just kind of letting them fly out on social media all the time, you give them more time to, you know, to really ripen and to percolate. And then I think there's also just the, like, on a mechanics level of like how you track

your ideas. So and how do you allow them to percolate and can you actually see that? So I use Evernote to track all of my ideas. And, you know, there's many apps that work in this way, right? It's a collection of notebooks which have different notes within them. And so every time I have a new idea that I think might be a big thing, I usually start a new notebook and then I'll, you know, put little notes as I have little thoughts for it in there. And in most ways, I'm actually more of an advocate for analog, but for tracking ideas, I like digital because what happens is I will really quickly be able to see what was like a one-off idea that I thought was like seemed amazing

at the time but then I went back and added like zero you know like only two more notes to it versus an idea that I had and you know three months ago and I've added like 27 notes to it and it's like oh okay this is like percolating this is ripening like this is worth pursuing um so I think that's also interesting to think about. How and where do you let your ideas percolate? Something that workflow embodies for me is I don't think the answer to the problems we've been talking about today are to put your head in the sand and go back in time. I mean, these technologies exist. There are good uses for them and bad uses for them. But the intentionality that you bring to it is what makes all the difference.

And I love it when I hear of people figuring out, you know, analog, digital, you know, what are the best pieces for them? And intentionally, how are they using it to make their lives better? Which can be done. Yeah, 100%. And I mean, I think it's just coming back to that notion that anything digital that you use, whether it's your whole computer, it's specific app that you're using, like, it's a tool. And like any tool, you know, whatever it is, like a hammer, or, you know, printing press, or a chainsaw, like you want to know what you want to achieve with that tool before you pick it up. And I think what's happened, and particularly with the rise of smartphones, is that we just are kind of swimming. We're looking to this thing all the time without any idea of what we want to do with it. And so I think that that space, that digital space and those apps and those tools are great for, it's something else I talk about in the course, they're great for refining our ideas.

They're not great for like coming up with ideas and defining ideas. I think that happens more in a kind of embodied 3D space and analog space. Yeah. When your smartphone is the hammer, everything looks like a nail, right? I am kind of curious. You mentioned how you get things into Evernote and where you store them, but what's your process for going back and revisiting those ideas once you put them there? Do you have like a set time every week where you're just going to go through those things and then you make decisions? Okay, this one has percolated long enough and this is going to become a thing like the reset

chorus or, you know, whatever, whatever's next. Yeah. I mean, I'm someone who I don't have like, I don't have a rigid routine for, you know, revisiting the Evernote. And I do, I have like a variety of different tracking methods. So I have, I have Evernote, which is for like things that I know I'm going to constantly Evernote in which is for like things that I know I'm going to constantly Evernote in a certain way is like, okay, I think this is something I might do. You know, okay, let me create it in here. And then I can kind of add notes. And then, you know, I'll have my phone with me. So wherever I get an idea, whatever, I can put it in there. But I also use a couple different notebooks. I have like kind of a, I basically have two journals

that I used to have like a little journal that's like my business journal that I kind of track my constant like little evolutions of existing things in my business. So what am I going to do with the course? What am I going to do with the podcast? That type of thing. And then I also have a separate like personal journal that's more like just, you know, ideas and things that are inspiring me. And so I tend to go back through all of those things, you know, less on kind of a rigid schedule, but more as the as the mood strikes me. And, you know, I think the digital the Evernote is great for seeing the sort of like, ripening of basically like what might be my next project, or a project that I've already kind of decided to do. And I'm just, you know,

adding new stuff to. And then the journals, the journals are like almost like one is, you know, like a business personal growth lens. And then the other is like a personal, you know, growth lens, like looking back through them and kind of seeing what arc you're on. Gotcha. So follow-up question, I guess, then would be, you mentioned doing the input deprivation retreat. How do you balance giving yourself time to percolate on the ideas that you've captured and balancing the inputs and the ideas that you would get on a regular basis? Do you have like a set time at the end of the day where you're just like, okay, I'm not going to, I'm not going to listen to anything else after this point. I'm just going to, or do you like go for a walk and just noodle on things

or how, how does that play out in your day-to-day life? Yeah. I mean, it tends, for me, it tends to be a little more seasonal. I mean, it kind of depends, right? Because there's these different cycles, right? Sometimes you're sort of working on a project. And so you're just trying to come up with new ideas around that specific project. And then sometimes there's like the bigger concentric circle of like, I've completed a huge project. What's the next big project, right? project, right? And those are kind of two different modalities. But yeah, I mean, I do carve out time to, I carve out a lot of just, yeah, time to be walking. I live a block from Prospect Park in Brooklyn. I go there every morning for an hour with my dog. So that's part of the daily routine. But I also try to go on walks by myself. So I have that time as well. a rigid daily routine, you know, which is a little bit unusual for somebody who talks about productivity. But I don't think that's suitable for everyone. And I'm one of those people. So for me, it is a lot of almost kind of going back to, I think, something we were talking about early is really protecting those golden hours, those morning hours that are really important. And particularly that kind of first, you know, three to four hours in a

day, making sure I'm really doing focused work. And then now I actually give myself a lot of freedom to be a little bit more organic with the rest of my day and see what, you know, see what kind of feels like the thing to work on, which sounds like kind of like, what, like maybe a little too like out of control for some people. But it's interesting, like as I've kind of become more comfortable with working in a slightly more organic way, I feel like I've actually become more productive because I'm now really good at assessing when, right, there are moments when you need to do something and you don't feel like doing it and you need to just push through that resistance and do it and once you you know start doing it you'll

build some momentum right but then sometimes there's moments when you need to do something and you're really just not inspired and you're not going to get there and it's going to be like a waste of time to work on that thing and I feel like as I've kind of more started to trust myself and move more into this organic way of working, I've become much better at making that distinction intuitively to be like, okay, you know what, like, this actually not going to be productive for you to work on that now, like, let's do something else or just, you know, take the last two hours of the afternoon off and like rest or go for a run. Versus, you know, knowing when I'm kind of just like, you know, needing when I'm kind of just like,

you know, needing to push through what Steven Pressfield calls the resistance and just actually like get going on something. Yeah, that topic is fascinating to me. And I find myself kind of wanting to embrace your methodology there. Like I've kind of found recently that I'm not looking at the task manager so often. And I kind of get now why people don't like doing that just as you're describing, because it feels like somebody else, whether it was past you or whoever telling you like, this is what you need to get done today. And there is a lot of motivation that comes from, and I would argue probably creativity to being able to kind of chuck the plan and do whatever you feel like.

Obviously, there's a little bit of balance there. You do have to make sure that you do the things that you have to get done, meet deadlines, all that sort of stuff. But I get it. And I kind of find myself in this uncomfortable place because I've always been the type of person who's got everything planned out and worked off the task manager. But I feel like I've gotten a little bit of a taste of the other side. Yeah. Well, and I think there's seasons to that as well. Right. So, I mean, it's not like, you know, some people might be like, I can't work like that every day, you know, but it's like, I don't work like that every day. Like it really depends on where I am. You know, it's like when I was in the month or two leading up to the launch of my course, like I had a lot of tasks to do and,

you know, I had to stay really focused on those tasks. And, you know, it was very much like execution to launch mode, you know, type of workday that I was that I was moving through, you know, whereas once the course was launched, and it was like, okay, I kind of, you know, wrapped up or I'm maintaining this, you know, this big project now. And now I'm actually thinking about what's the next project, you know, then those are those moments where it's definitely interesting to be a little bit more flexible and a little bit more organic. So you're kind of creating some of that space that we talked about for, you know, what the next thing is to kind of like percolate up. I do think there's like this middle road you have to walk because it's very

easy, at least for me, to go too far on the, hey, let's just take it easy and then suddenly i don't have a way to pay for my shoes or or or and it's also like a pendulum i can go just the opposite way and fall off the the intentionality bandwagon you know almost like almost to such an extent that sometimes when we start the show i feel like i need to raise my hand and say, hi, I'm David, and I am, you know, a burnout potential, and I've been sober for three days. You know, it's like, it's very easy to, you know, switch between those two. I was thinking, you know, when you were working for the startup, you definitely kind of fell off the bandwagon yourself, as you were talking about earlier. Do you find yourself dealing with that now? I mean, is that something that you occasionally have a problem with? And

when you do, how do you sort yourself out? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, and especially if you, I mean, this happens to anyone, you know, I think whether you're in the workplace or outside, like if you're working on your own as I am, you know, and you're, you're creating projects, you're doing things you've never done before. You know, I never made an online course before. Like, I didn't know what that took, you know. So it's impossible to say like, well, what's the timeline that I should do this on? You know, but at a certain point, you have to pick a launch date and you have to stick to it, you know. And that's what I did. But the push, quite frankly, up to the finish line was really intense. And, you know, had I and which is very ironic, right, of course, but, you know, had I known that that was going to be the way that things would unfold, I would have kind of shifted my schedule, but I didn't know.

Um, and so, so yes, I've definitely like fallen back into that. And I mean, I think, and I think everyone does. And as we were saying, like, there's, there's always going to be new technologies or whatever new projects that come online that then challenge that equilibrium that you may have found, you know, but I think the hope is and, and my hope also for the for the course and people who take the course is that, you know, it kind of raises your general awareness and your general consciousness and maybe makes you a little bit more tapped into your body so that you see the signs earlier, right? You're a little more aware. And so you can start to adjust earlier. And that's definitely been the case for me. So it's not like I, you know, burnt myself out and it took years to recover. You know, it's like I, you know, it's like, oh, that was a challenging launch. You know, I'm going to go to like Australia for two weeks and then I'm fine. You know, so, you know, the recovery time becomes less. And I think that, you know, it's always going to be a challenge for all of us. And especially people, you know, as you were saying, kind of like you or me. always going to be a challenge for all of us. And especially people, you know, as you were saying, kind of like you or me, I mean, of course, I do a show called Hurry Slowly because I need to learn the lessons of that show myself. Like I'm a very driven, very achievement oriented person. So I need to kind of constantly be reminding myself to like, tone it down a little bit, right. And so I

think that's, you know, it's just it's just an ongoing thing. It's that, you know, this idea of work-life balance is a myth. You know, any type of balance is something that's an ongoing effort. You have to do it all the time. I'm glad you called that out. I agree. It is a myth. It's just your life and you have to balance it. But also, I think that ties back to your course beautifully because I love the name Reset. You have the ability at any point to say the way that I'm working isn't working, and I'm going to do something about it. I'm going to reshape the way that I go about my day. And there's something really empowering about that. Yeah, well, I hope so. And you know this, Mike, because you've gone through some of the course,

but what I didn't describe when I gave the overview is that there's 12 lessons, but then each lesson is accompanied by what I call a reset ritual, right, which is this activity that helps you kind of embody the ideas of whatever that lesson was. And the idea is that those rituals are things that you can return to again and again, and you may need to return to again and again, you know, because that's the nature of things, right? Like you're going to kind of get into this equilibrium, and then at some point you're going to fall into balance. And so I tried to kind of account for that with the course. So it's not just like, hey, here's all this information. It's also like, hey, here's these little experiments and rituals that you can use to recalibrate yourself, not just now, but,

you know, six months from now or six years from now, because that's kind of part of, you know, the ongoing process of working at a sustainable pace. Well, I can't think of anyone more qualified to help us reset than you, Jocelyn. I just love the content you brought to us. I think this is a great course. Anybody who's listening to this and this is touching you, I recommend, you know, go look. We'll put a link to the course in the show notes. Please go check it out and just keep making that great content for us, Jocelyn. We all appreciate it. I think both Mike and I are big fans of everything you're doing. Oh, thank you. I really appreciate that. And I will say one more thing to people listening, which is that the course is open for registration now, and then it'll only

be through May 17th, because it's kind of an open and closed thing that I do. So then it'll be closing for the summer. So if you guys are feeling in need of a recalibration, now is the time. And if you don't sign up for the course, definitely go subscribe to the Hurry Slowly podcast, which, as I mentioned, is one of my favorite podcasts. Is there anywhere else you would want to send people, Jocelyn? No, those are the two spots. Also on the podcast website, they can subscribe to my newsletter, which you guys mentioned, which I kind of share, you know, a bunch of articles and tips that are all very much in line with all the stuff that we have been talking about here. Yeah. In fact, I have been intentionally cutting down on my inputs lately.

Especially news is my weakness, honestly. I can fall into the black hole of news very easily. But one of the things that did not get cut out with my input filter is your newsletter. Great stuff in there. Oh, thank you. All right. Well, thanks so much, Jocelyn. And just keep doing what you're doing.

Oh, thank you. It's always so much fun to talk to you guys. We're like swimming in the same sea, right? Hopefully we all are. Yes. Thank you to our sponsors for this episode, Squarespace, ExpressVPN, and Timing. And we'll talk to you all in a couple of weeks.