Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - 1 Nephi 6-10 Part 2 • Dr. Gaye Strathearn • Jan 15 - 21 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: January 10, 2024

Dr. Gaye Strathearn continues to explore the Savior’s invitation to receive the blessings of the Savior’s Atonement in 1 Nephi 6-10.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/book-of-mormon-episodes-1-13/YouTube: https://youtu.be/SSmffPVkx-QApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/follow-him-a-come-follow-me-podcast/id1545433056Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BY00:00 Part II–Dr. Gaye Strathearn00:07 The rod of iron and the river symbolism01:33 Garden of Eden parallels03:58 Dr. Strathearn shares a personal story about Covid08:13 The Great and Spacious building 10:04 Human self-sufficiency vs. belief in God13:26 Residents of the Great and Spacious Building15:56 Korihor 16:40 Approval of God vs the approval of man18:33 John shares a story about missionary in a prison20:31 Staying at the Tree of Life24:47 Activity vs passivity28:21 The four groups in Lehi’s dream parallel four types of ground30:40 Nephi asks regarding Lehi’s Dream34:05 Lehi teaches about the seed of Laman and Lemuel39:13 Jesus saves from the darkness42:39 The Allegory of Zenos46:54 Understanding the Fall 48:51 Allowing the Spirit to teach as we study52:53 End of Part II– Dr. Gaye Strathearn Thanks to the follow HIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to part two with Dr. Gay Strather, 1 Nephi, chapter 6 through 10. Gay, as we go through this, I just maybe ask you to comment on the items and the different things that are seen. Just like you said, Gay, as the family part of the dream seems to transition into the very macro part of the dream, between verses 18 and 19. That's when you have all these other symbols you might say appearing. So when he says, I held the rod of iron extended on the bank of the river. What comes to mind when you think of those two things, the rod of iron and the river? As in most things, river could have positive and negative connotations and symbols often do

that so if I'm remembering correctly later Nephi is going to say that it was dirty water and that Lehigh didn't see it quite as well clearly I think the rod is not just to keep them on the path but to help prevent them falling into the river. The other thing I think about, particularly if we see it in a more negative sense, is this seems to me to be a barrier between the tree of life and the great and spacious building. Even though it might come from pure water, a fountain that is good, but it becomes impure as it goes down and tainted. So in some ways I see a river, this is coming back to my thoughts about the tree of life and the garden of Eden. In some ways I wonder whether this river might be analogous in some way to the

cherubum and the flaming sword to keep the fallen people out of the way so that they don't become eternal or eternal life in a fallen state. Somehow the people in the great and spacious building would have to leave the building and make a journey and maybe through the dark and dreary waste of their own and mists of darkness, but to show their commitment to pressing forward and continuing to go even when things get rough, but realizing that there is a price to be paid, but as Lehigh is trying to tell them, the benefits of those difficulties are absolutely worth any cost that it takes to get there.

So Rod of Iron comes up in verse 19 there, like Gays said, I like to call it, it's a guide rail and a guard rail. It's both. A guide and a guard, it's going to protect you for falling into the river, but it's also a guide to the tree of life. And one of the things I've noticed as I've pondered this is the rod comes up first and the mist of darkness doesn't come to verse 23 and it says it arose, which I think light comes from above. This darkness comes from beneath. There arose a mist of darkness. And one of the things that impresses me here is if you are not already holding on to the

rod of iron. When the mist of darkness comes, you may not be able to find it. And that's what it says. Those who have commenced in the path that lose their way and they wandered off. All of us will encounter myths of darkness. Hopefully we are already holding on to the rod of iron. And that will take us right through it.

And that's what verse 24 says. I'll be held other, suppressing for, they came forth, caught hold at the end of the rod of iron, and it pressed forward through the mist of darkness. That's the guide rail part, but we've got to be holding on even in our easy times so that when our hard times come, we've got the guide rail and we can get through. Excellent. Let's keep going here. Our first group is a numberless concourse of people pressing forward so they can get to the tree, but then the midst of darkness come. Like you mentioned, John, what do you make of this midst of darkness?

Is it block their view of the tree? They can't see the tree anymore? Yeah, I do think so. Or they distort the tree because in a fog, we can still see things, and we can still even see lights, but they're distorted and they're harder to see. What are the myths of darkness that it could be lots of things? But I think it's mortality. You haven't got to be in the great and spacious building to come across difficulties in mortality. Sometimes, these myths of darkness are just a result of living in a mortal

condition. Maybe COVID was a misadakmas in our day. Well, I'm just talking personally here, as a single person, COVID was particularly difficult for me. One of the things that was most difficult was that for months I wasn't able to take the sacrament because there was no one in my household who could do that. It just wasn't available to me. So that means for months I didn't have the opportunity, ritually, to go back to the sacrament table and to petition God for a further endowment of his spirit that the sacrament promises me. Part of that meant that I felt myself thinking, you know, I can do this no church on Sunday thing. I got used to it because I saw things in a distorted way, I think.

But I couldn't wait until we were able to go back to church because I knew that if I had stayed in that position much longer, it would have been so much harder for me to come back. And I remember that first day being with the saints again, symbolically, but also literally being shoulder to shoulder with them, communally coming before the sacrament, how powerful that was for me. And I had forgotten that I think that was some misdemeanor for me. But I am so grateful

that I got to go back to remember and to experience that personally and to be reminded that I'm not alone and that there is power in the communleness of attending church that I don't get when I'm just alone. Wow, Gave, what an insightful experience to make this come alive. John, I've heard you say something once where you said the myths of darkness, as Nephi describes them, the temptations of the devil, which blinded the eyes and hardened at the hearts of the children of men. I've heard you say before that the myths of darkness can be very isolating. That's kind of what Gay talked about. Yeah, that you can't see in front of you, you can't see behind you, and it's not just a mist in the darkness. It's a mist of

darkness. I mean, I imagine it not like a dark smoke or something, you know, therefore the decision to press forward becomes very individual for all of us. And one of the things that our friend S. Michael Wilcox pointed out once is that if it's a low-lying fog or mist like is in the Middle East, you could look up and see. And the only thing Satan still wants you to see, he said, was the great spacious building. Also, the mist of darkness wouldn't do anything to your hearing. You could still hear the mocking coming from the building, and you're isolated, and you're alone. It's just a interesting metaphor for, am I going to press forward or not, becoming an individual

decision? I just love Lehigh's dream. It is so deep, but so amazing. Yeah, I think the mist of darkness isolates everybody and eventually it becomes a decision. Will I press forward or not? Okay, that's our first group. And then he says, I beheld others pressing forward. They caught hold of the end of the rod of iron. We've talked about that pressing through the mist of darkness, then they get to the fruit, they partake of the fruit of the tree. After they had partaken of the fruit of the tree,

they start to look around. Lehigh seems to notice for the first time a great and spacious building in verse 26. What is Lehigh seeing here? What do you make of this building? We talk about the building all the time. In fact, I have a book on my shelf called Life Styles of the Great and Spacious by John Byterway. I have that book on my shelf. So this is a building we talk about often. What do you make of it? The first thing I notice there is in the toll is it stood as it were in the air high above the earth. And I want to contrast that to the tree which is firmly rooted. And we've talked about the importance of those roots to give it strength, to give it stability

through the things that mortality can throw at us, but the spacious building has no foundation. That suggests that it is whimsical, it's not grounded in anything that's internal, that it doesn't have a foundation that will give strength in times of winds or strength in times of winds or storms or things like that. But it's high in the air. It's looking down. The people are looking down at those who are on the path to the tree so that there's a sense of superiority. Maybe there that we know more than you guys, you idiots on this path, I teach an introduction to the ancient near East and as part of that we look at the metamorphosis or the change over time between say the New Testament where people believed in God and they read scripture through the lens of a belief in God and the evolution where God eventually gets taken out of the equation in reading the scriptures because we can't prove God. So human

self-sufficiency rises up. We see the transition from you need to read scriptures, you need to do it in the right attitude of praying and seeking help from God to the point where a humanistic view you don't need God, you don't need to pray before you read the scriptures, you just do it with your reason, your logic, your things, and how we see these cracks and then becoming wider and wider between groups as they're thinking about the scriptures. And I think from a worldly perspective, we live in a very humanistic world. What humans can see and understand is all we need. And all we see is a very limited view of eternity, a very small portion of eternity. People will tell you, well, that's all you need to know. But the Savior says, no, I came to Earth, Gospel of John, to help you see that mortality

is only a slither. I've come to give you the eternal perspective from which you can make your choices. But if I am a sea like this, and I think that this is reality, and this is my reality, I miss things. So that's why I think for me personally, I don't understand eternity very well.

And my brain can't cope with it. I can give a talk on it and I can quote scriptures and things like that. But the idea of eternity is just bigger than my mortal brain can comprehend. When I have questions or the world tells me that I should have questions. I don't know the answer to that, but my response, at least I hope my response, is not to say, okay, walk away because of your questions. My response is, if I hang on, maybe I'll learn some more stuff that God sees and God knows, Maybe I'll learn some more stuff that God sees and God knows and Those questions I have will no longer be questions. I'll make sense because God has an eternal perspective

Whereas I only have a mortal perspective. So it's worth hanging on. It's worth pressing forward continually to the iron rod understanding that the more I know of God and about God and from God, the more I'm going to have an eternal perspective and those questions I have total trust and faith, that they will make sense once I see them as God sees them. People in the great and spacious building aren't looking for that eternal perspective in my opinion. Wonderful. A couple of questions about the great and spacious building. It's on the other side of the river of water. The people in it are old, young, male, female, and their attitude towards those partaking of the fruit of the tree is mocking and pointing their fingers.

What is Lehigh getting at? John, let's go to you and then gay, let's go back to you. What do you see in the Great and Spacious building? It's fascinating to me that the description of the occupants of the Great and Spacious Building in verse 27, it says it was filled with people both old and young. There's moms and dads out there trying to do come following me with junior high students and high school students. I think if a bunch of old people came and said, I don't like the way you dress, I don't think they would care,

but what if it was someone their own age? Or someone their own age talking to them about, why do you go to seminary? Or some of their own age giving them a hard time. There's a peer pressure element here when it talks about that they're old and they're young, they're male and they're female and they have the best clothes on of all the things you could do in a building that's spacious. You'd think there'd be Elder Maxwell said more to do in such a spacious building like maybe a

bowling alley. But the activity of choice is to go to the windows and point. There's got to be more to do in there. The other thing that I find fascinating is what gay pointed out it's in the air. Thank you for these awesome footnotes. There's a footnote to Ephesians chapter 2 verse 2. It has one of the strangest names for Satan that I've ever seen. It calls him the Prince of the Power of the Air. I got out my Mokomki New Testament commentary, wants to see what, what does that mean? And I just thought, how did he see this coming? That the influence of Satan will be in the very air around us. And I just thought, how did he see this coming? That the influence of Satan will be in the very air around us. And I thought, oh my Wi-Fi. The great spacious building is in the air.

Wow. And Elder McCronkey wrote that in the 70s. That it would be in the very air around us. And that's a very modern way to look at that footnote, ties it to the modern age of the great space. It's on the air. It's in the air. It is everywhere. Interesting.

When it comes to the people in the building and the mocking and the pointing of the fingers, what comes to mind? For me, I see Corahor in this Alma chapter 30, the way he comes at, the people is this foolish and vain hope. Yoke and frenzy and deranged and... Yeah, it's the effect of a frenzy to mind. He says, the derangement of your minds, it's over and over. It seems to me that if I can get you

feeling insecure, if I can get you feeling even stupid for believing, I'm going to rock you a little bit off the path. Is that what you see here? Okay. Yeah. I don't want to feel alienated from my peers. Yeah, I don't want to feel alienated from my peers. I still struggle with wanting the approval of the world at times because it can be immediate. And sometimes when you're thinking about eternity, sometimes the approval of God is a little less immediate. It's sometimes in a still small voice, of God is a little less immediate. It's sometimes in a still small voice when I live in a very loud world.

In other words, I've got to be very intentional to put myself in places where I am welcoming the Spirit into my life. And I've got to be intentional about listening. I've got to be intentional about remembering. I've got to be intentional about seeking for it. These experiences don't usually come when I'm passive. These experience come when I'm seeking to be with God

and to do His will, not mine. Sometimes the things of the world are in your face and it's hard to turn away or walk away and to disassociate from it, but I can't disassociate into nothingness. The only way I can dissociate is in intentionality to come unto God and to do things his way, not mine. And that's hard sometimes. John, I went and grabbed behind me my copy of the book. It's called Finding Your Path in Lehigh's Dream. So I apologize. Life-Stiles of the Great and Spaces is not the title. So it's called Finding Your Path and Lehigh's Dream.

John, I'm guessing in writing the book, you thought a lot about this Great and Spacious building. Talk to me a little bit more about it. I had first moved into this ward and I had a wonderful guy stood up in the back of the room in high pre-score one day and said, listen, back when I was drinking in party and I had a good time. He said, I had a great time. I have to admit, I was in the great and spacious laughing at you guys.

He said, I did 25 years of field research in the great and spacious building. He said, you name it, I was addicted to it. He said, and then it turned on me and I lost my marriage and to do it. He said, and then it turned on me. And I lost my marriage. And I lost my job. And I lost the chance to raise my two daughters. And in 25 years, I spent $500,000 on drugs and alcohol. And I'm, who is this guy? I look around and I see he's got a missionary tag on. His name's Steve. And he's an addiction recovery missionary at the prison. What I love about Steve is he goes to the prison and guess what he teaches them? Members are not. He teaches him. We have his dream. In the dream, we don't see people leaving the great

spaces and coming to the tree, but it happens all the time and it happened to Steve. I've been to the prison a few times with him to speak at a home evening. And I'm grateful that it's possible to leave the building and come to the tree. She says, Hey, I was there and there's nothing there. And I lost just about everything there. But now I'm at the tree. He's been doing that out the prison for more than 20 years now. It reminds me of one of those last chapters of Revelation before the building falls, the Savior says, come out of her, my people, that you receive not of her plagues, come out of her. Well, I was just looking at verse 33 and it says, and great was the multitude that

they'd enter into the strange building. I thought that was interesting. It's a strange building. Strange building. To Nephi and Lehi. And after they did enter into that building, they did point the finger of scorn at me. So that becomes personal. But then I love the response. So it point the finger of scorn at me and those were taking off the fruit also. But we needed them not. That's the hard part, but that's part of the intentionality. If we're focused on Christ, we're focused on the tree, then it's easier to heed them not, but it's hard. And you know, John, what you were saying there about people leaving the building,

I really think that Lehigh is going through this dream, hoping that his sons will leave the building. But he comes to the realization, he exceedingly feared verse 36 for Laman and Lemuel, ye he feared, lest they should be cast off from the presence of the Lord. And he did exhort them with all of the feelings of a tender parent that they would harken unto the words, that perhaps the Lord would be merciful unto them and not cast on to them. Yay, my father preached unto them. Again, he never gives up on them. This dream is not positive for his hopes. He never gives up hope on his sons. Just as the father doesn't give up on us. Yeah. Do you know what I've always wondered about this gay? you mentioned this before. It reminds me of a Christmas Carol. It reminds me of when Ebenezer Scrooge says to the spirit of Christmas future, are these the shadows of things that must be or are these the shadows of things that might be? And it sounds like Lehigh, his interpretation was, these are things that might be, if things stay as they are this,

and that's why he could persuade them with all the feeling of a tender parent, because he believes there's still an opportunity for Laman and Amal to not become what the dream seems to show. Yeah, oh yeah. And I think that that's reflective when we go to chapter 10 where I see him doing his interpretation of it. Gay, you mentioned earlier Alma 32 and how Alma taps into this language a little bit. You also mentioned earlier, tasting of the fruit of the tree and then leaving it behind. They're ashamed and they fall away into forbidden paths. And how that can be scary. The idea that I can have these experiences per take of the fruit of the tree,

and then that somehow I can be drawn away from that. That's a scary idea. As I was looking at it, I noticed in Alma 32 in Glea High's dream, Glea says in verse 28 that this group of people had tasted of the fruit of the tree and they were ashamed. But if you go to Alma 32, Alma says, once you have this fruit, this is Alma 32 verse 42, right at the end, he says, you shall feast upon this fruit until you are filled that you hunger not neither shall ye thirst. I wonder if there's a key there to understanding

how to stay at the tree. If you really wanna stay at the tree, you don't taste of the fruit, you feast until you are no longer interested in the building. Yeah. Eat and eat and eat. And I think of Nephi, Nephi's over there eating the fruit. He's making tree of life jam, tree of life pie.

This is all he's interested in is this fruit. And when that becomes your focus and you are filled with the fruit, the building loses its pull. A lua. Yeah. Yeah, it loses its attractiveness. You're just, why would I go there?

It's strange. I like that you pointed it out. Why would I go over there? That's a strange place to be. That's a strange building. For anybody like me that's worried, I don't wanna take the fruit and then end up walking away. I don't wanna be in that group.

Keep feasting. Just keep feasting every day. And as you do that, Gay, don't you think the building loses its pull? Absolutely. I can't just walk away from the building and be passive. I've got to be actively involved in finding ways that can engage me and give me opportunities to feel the spirit and to feel of that love, but that's something I've got to be intentional about. Yeah, I picture Nephi there with his fruit, it's just his mouth is full all the time. All right, and looking at the building, do you want some fruit? Well, I'm just, I'm going to stay

here and keep eating. This is really good. And it could be easy to be in the gospel to be passive. I go to church, I warm a seat, go through the motions, and I don't do it. And I can also say that from experience, when I do that, I kind of walk away and go, check I've been to church. But when I'm actively involved, whether it's in a sacrament meeting, and I don't have to be actively involved in terms of giving talks or anything, but when I'm actively involved in the experience of sacrament and of taking the sacrament and when I'm actively involved in the experience of either relief society or Sunday school, I come away from church feeling very differently. Instead of it being a check box, I come away thinking, I love this gospel. And I'm grateful for a heavenly father who loves me,

for his saviour and for a restoration and living prophets. It's a different thing than when I'm just being passive. So there were two New Testament scholars, Davies and Allison, and they talk about this metaphor that a disciple of Jesus Christ is not a passive spectator sitting in the grandstand and watching the game going on down in the field. Instead, a disciple of Jesus Christ is somebody who has skin in the game, who is down in the field, giving their all to help the success of what's going on. And I've thought about that, you know, I'm a nobody, but the church is made up of nobody's who every day do things that helps the kingdom of God move forward in incrementally small ways, but important

ways. And that's what I mean about being engaged in it. I'm not going to be speaking at general conference. I might be in the nursery, but those are the things that help move the kingdom of God forward in its manifest destiny. And that's where I need to be engaged in the trenches, because I have a vested interest in the outcome of what happens rather than being acted upon. We had Justin and Aslan dire here. Was that John, John, John and Jude? I can't stop thinking about something that Aslan said that I thought was so good. She said an adult is someone who contributes more than they consume. And Elder Bednar has talked about this. He talks about his wife going to church and finding somebody that I can lift and help and serve

and being really engaged like you just said. Not to check the box, but to go, there's somebody here I can lift or talk to or help. I'm going to contribute more than I consume. If I love that idea. Me too. Hey, real quick, before we get on to the interpretation in chapter 10, I've either of you noticed, and this is just something to think about, that the four groups in Lehigh's dream almost match

perfectly the four soils in the parable of the sower. So you've got these first people who want to get to the tree, but the mis-of-darkness comes, and that fits the stony ground, then you've got these people who get to the tree, but then the things of this world choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. You've got people who are not interested in the tree at all. They're trying to get to the building, but that would be the wayside. You've got those who go to the tree and end up staying there, similar to the Savior saying those that have the good soil and bring forth fruit. Just something to chew on.

Hank, that's one of my hot buttons. This is just average brother by the way talking. Lehigh's dream is part four of a four part story. It's the soil, the seed, the season, then the supper. And the soil is Matthew 13, parable of the four kinds of soil. When Alma notices the Zoramites, he doesn't teach him the parable of the sower. He sees that they're good soil, the poor among the Zoramites. So he turns and says, I'm going to tell you about this word I want you to plant in your hearts. Based on what I just heard on the ramiyumptum, you don't believe in. But if you will give place that this word, this seed, maybe planted in your hearts. And then he tells them to plant this word, which is Christ.

And then the season, he says, you're going to need faith, diligence, and patience. That's the fertilizer, FDP, to grow this. And he says, if you neglect the tree, you'll never per take of the fruit of the tree of life. There's part four, right there. I think they're all connected. And I think, of course, the four soils correspond with the four groups in Lehigh's Dream, because it's the same story in my opinion. It's so fun that in all the standard works we have the soil, the seed, the season, and the supper all connected that way. To me, that's thrilling, to see how that all works together and how they correspond so perfectly.

Well, I'm glad I wasn't crazy with that thought. Gay, you mentioned that chapter 10 is the hyzen-terpretation. I don't know if many of our listeners, me included, a tatch chapter 10 to chapter 8. We kind of leave chapter 8 on its own, and then we move on not bringing it with us. So you're saying, bring Lehigh's dream with you into chapter 10.

Absolutely. And there's a reason we don't often make the connection because Nephires put chapter 9 in there, which breaks things up. And chapter 10 is he saying, okay, from this point on, I'm going to talk about my stuff. I'm not just abridging my father's stuff anymore. But what does he do? He immediately goes to his father. This again is important to him. I'm on the small plates and I'm doing my stuff, but I'm still going to talk about my dad. And one of the reasons why I think that this is the interpretation is because if we go to the end of chapter 10, we've got this segue from what Lehigh is teaching to Nephi and his experience and then him going to segue into his vision experience. After he hears

his dad teaching in chapter 10, notice what we have in verse 17. And it came to pass that after I Nephi having heard all the words of my father concerning the things which he saw in a vision, the rest of the chapter has been talking about what might be seen as other things, but he's saying, no, I'm listening to him talking about his vision, and also the things which he spoke by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God, and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come, and as we'll see, that's going to be important as chapter. I, Nephi, was a desire as also that I might see and hear and know of these things by the power of the Holy Ghost,

which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek Him as well in times of old as in the time that He should manifest Himself unto the children of men, for He's the same yesterday, and then verse 19, for He that diligently seeketh shall find, and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them by the power of the Holy Ghost. Was I read these verses, we know later on that Laman and Lemuel had absolutely no idea what their father is talking about. Have you understood this? They said, no, we have no idea. Nephi is going to say, but have you asked? They're going, no, God doesn't make anything known to us. The the response is, if I seem not to have fully understood either,

and so he says, I need to not just have my dad talk about it, but I need to have my own personal experience with the Holy Ghost. And I'm going to seek to do that. I was desirous that I might see and hear and know these things. So I don't want to just hear what Dad's saying. I want to see what he saw so that I can know not just vicariously from my dad's experience, but from my own personal experience.

And I know I'm going to have to pay a price for that and I'm willing to do it and that leads us into chapter 11. My interest in here is going, okay, we've seen the vision dream, but what do we have in chapter 10? So verse 2, and behold, it came to pass after my father had made an end of speaking the words of the dream and also of exhorting them to the diligence he spoke concerning the Jews. Now, what I think is happening, and when I get upstairs, I'm tracking Lehigh down that, because I want to ask him point blank what is going on here. But this is how I'm reading it. I think he's had his dream, and he started off because he was thinking about his family,

his immediate family. And then we've talked about how it kind of segues into not just people in general, but more specifically, probably the seed of layman and Lemur. But now I think that Lehigh is starting to think broadly. What is it that is going to help if there's a possibility for my sons to come back, if there's a possibility that God can be merciful to them, and to their children who are bearing the impact of the rippling effects of their choices. Is there hope for them? I want to connect that with Zenys' allegory because this is the same way that Jacob is going to introduce them to the allegory. And frankly, in Romans 11, when Paul

seems to be giving a shortened version of Zenys' allegory, he's asking the same thing. Is there hope for Israel who have broken their covenants and turned away from God? And Paul's going to give the Clifnotes version of the allegory. And I wonder whether Lehigh is thinking likewise because notice verse 3 and what he goes to. the Jews that after they should be destroyed, even the great city of Jerusalem and many be carried away captive into Babylon, according to the own time of the Lord, they should return again, yay, even brought back out of captivity and that they should be brought back out of captivity, that they should possess again the land of their inheritance. Now, all through the book of Mormon here,

we've had Lehigh prophesying that it was important for us to leave, even though Laman and Lemuel didn't like it, because Jerusalem is going to be destroyed. Then, if I tell Laman and Lemuel when they're in the rebelling, if you can trust in God, then we're going to see the benefit of what has come from listening to a prophet and following through. Then the vision comes up and it starts talking about, we talked about this, that this man in a white robe led them through a dark and dreary place. So how does Lehigh open his teaching?

His open teaching here. He talks about the destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in what would be considered to be one of the darkest times in all of Jewish history up to the Holocaust. And what does he talk about here? He's starting. This is our dark and dreary wasteland and the impact of that is not just for a day or two And the impact of that is not just for a day or two, but this is years that come from it. Not only is Jerusalem become desolate, but the people are taken away.

They're in Babylon. They've got to exist in Babylon. And it's going to take about 70 years before they come back. And when they come back, what do they find of Jerusalem? They weep for once what was a great and wonderful city and temple, but it's all gone. So he brings it back to this. That's why I see the connection. And then he goes on and says, but there will be a return. Can there be a return for layman and Lemuel?

Is it possible that there's a return for them or for their posterity? Because the Lord does return again, yay, even he brought them back out of captivity. And after they should be brought back out of captivity, they should possess again the land of their inheritance, which is difficult for Lehi and his family because their inheritance is going to be different. We talked about that.

So gave verse 3, this destruction of the southern kingdom of Judah, and maybe the entire scattering of it, and even verse 6, all mankind were in a lost and fallen state. So I'm seeing the dark and dreary waste. What a fascinating connection. Yeah. And what is it that brings them out of this right? In the dream, it is lehy praying, and eventually then being led to the tree, but here verse 4, again, it's going to take some time, but yay, even 600 years from the time that my father left Jerusalem, a Prophet with the Lord God raised up among the Jews, even the Messiah, or the Savior of the world.

This is the hours in the Dark and Dury replace, but the hope of the world. This is the hours in the dark and dreary place, but the hope of the tree is the Savior. And he also spoke concerning the prophets and how a great number testified these things concerning this Messiah of whom he had spoken or this Redeemer of the world, wherefore all mankind, as you said, was lost and fallen state and ever would be, say they should rely on this Redeemer. And he spoke also of another prophet, and he's going to talk about John the Baptist here. He's going to talk about how he prepares the way for the coming of the Messiah, and I've thought about how Lehi, in a very real sense for his family, is like John the Baptist preparing them for the tree going there ahead of his family to put take of the fruit to get a sense of it to

know how joyous it is and then invite people to come to participate with him acting in very John the Baptist way preparing the way of the Lord making the path straight for their standards one among you whom you know not and he is mightier than I who shoesatched and I'm not worthy. Helping him see that this isn't any ordinary tree. And my father said he should baptise in Bethvara with water even the Messiah. Is this the water of the fountain as it originally comes out, the cleansing power of the clean water. And after he baptized the Messiah with water, he should be hold and bear record that he had baptized the Lamb of God who should take away the sins of the world.

How would that resonate with Lehigh as he's thinking about Laman and Lemuel and thinking of the hope that there is for them because of the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ. Gay, this is awesome. That's really great. The dark and dreary waste, the hours in the dark and dreary waste, the Messiah, the tree, is introduced. How did I not ever see this? Prepare you the way of the Lord, make His path straight, right out of the dream. And for Lehigh's family, that's okay, because they can go directly to the tree. It's the others that have this path and need the rod and everything. I beheld a straight and narrow path. I mean, it's right out of the dream. I feel so frustrated sometimes when something's right in front of me, and I've never seen it before.

And then the water, the baptism of Christ. I mean, this is playing out almost exactly like the dream. Yeah. Verse 11, he talks about the dwindling of the Jews in unbelief. And after they have slain the Messiah, he should come, after he had been slain, he should rise from the dead, and should make himself manifest by the Holy Ghost to the Gentiles. And then notice the language. Yay, even my father spake much concerning the Gentiles, and also concerning the House of Israel, that they should be

impaired like unto an olive tree, whose branches should be broken off and should be scattered upon the face of all the earth. Where have we seen that language before? Well, we haven't seen it yet, but we all know it. This is Zenis' allegoria. This is another reason why it makes me think is this what Lehigh has been reading, studying, searching, thinking about. What has he been thinking about that led to the vision that led to the dream? Yeah. And then 13, wherefore he said it must needs be that we should be led with one accord into the land of promise, unto the fulfilling of the Word of the Lord, that we should be scattered upon all of the face of the earth.

So again, this is Lehigh seeing things a little bit differently, and then verse 14 about the scattering. And after the House of Israel should be scattered, us, they should be gathered again, but in a different place, or in fine, after the Gentiles had received the fullness of the gospel the natural branches of the olive tree or the remnants of the house of Israel should be grafted in or

Come to the knowledge of the true Messiah their Lord and their Redeemer. Again, that's Zenis' allegory. We are being scattered. My family is being scattered, but we will be gathered and it will be gathered as we come to know about the true Messiah and the Lord and the Redeemer. There are the two places where I'm thinking again that this is the allegory is most fake. And it's when Nephi hears this that he says, I need to know more. I don't understand that, but I need help. And he's willing to pay the price to have that experience. And experience similar to his father ends up being way more expansive than even the experience of his father. I love this stuff. I love this stuff. Man, gay is almost like I think in my own teaching and reading, I go directly from Lehigh's, chapter 8, Lehigh's dream, to Nephise Vision, chapter 11.

And I've never looked at chapter 10 the way you have shown it here and said, look, look, he's interpreting the dream. I think you're right. Lehigh must have had Zenus' allegory on his mind. And usually when you get scattered, I like to call it, you get scatterbrained. You lose your testimony then, you lose your real estate. Except in this case, Lehigh was scattered to preserve this part of the House of Israel. The Zenus' allegory can answer the question of, well, we haven't lost our

testimony, but we're getting scattered. So how's this going to work? And Zenus' allegory answers that. So no wonder that's on his mind. See, Hank, I'm like, you are sometimes rushed through chapter 10 to get to 11 to 15. And the goal of Zenis' allegory is the fruit. It's not the tree, it's the fruit that comes from it. And how is it that Israel, even though they have these ups and downs, but God is doing this, is orchestrating all of these things he does so that he can get as much fruit as possible, as many souls of the children of men to return to him and take an eternal life.

I love that part, because I hope that I'm one of them, even though I have my dream experiences too. Just another reason to send the boys back to get the plates of brass because Zenus' allegory was on there. And then Lehigh reads it and all this comes out. This is great. Thank you. Yeah, this has been absolutely fantastic. You pointed out chapter 10, verse six, they're lost in fallen state.

And they're going to stay there unless they rely on the Redeemer. And then we tied that back to Lehigh being in the dark and jury waste, seeing the tree, you'll know this quote exactly, President Benson said, you need to understand the fall before you can truly desire the atonement. Man, I love this stuff too, because John, you pointed out earlier that the angel, the man in the white robe, showed Lehigh where he was.

Didn't necessarily lead him to that. He let him through it, through the darkness. Yeah, look, this is where you are. You are in, so Lehigh comprehends the fall in chapter eight, verse seven, I'd be held myself. I'm in a dark and drury waste. I never saw the fall in the dark and drury waste until gay pointed out chapter 10's relationship to chapter eight. This is expansive. I love this stuff.

That really just made my day. I mean, all of it. For me, in my Christ and the everlasting gospel class, we spend a full day, if not a day and a half, on the fall. Because if you don't understand the fall, Jesus is a great guy, and he teaches great things, but I don't know if I need him. I feel like the church goes through a fall.

The apostasy was the fall and the restoration was like the atonement to bring it all back. He's another pattern. That's why when you teach Lehigh's dream, don't skip that part about going through the darkness because that's I need help. I need the tree. Goodness. I've had these scriptures for 20 something years and I never wrote the fall by chapter 8 for 7. Never once.

Can I just say, though, as part of this, that I've thought about bits and pieces of this over the years for a number of years, but preparing for today, the Spirit helps you see and teaches you things that you just don't see sometimes. And he does it because you're being intentional trying to understand. It is a reminder to me of how powerful the Scriptures are and can be when we let the Spirit teaches. And it doesn't mean that we don't have to do some work on our own in preparation. Again, this is the intentional part not being passive. The Spirit doesn't teach me when I'm being passive. But it does teach me in powerful ways when I'm a seeker. And the scriptures are such a wonderful source. You can spend a lifetime studying these things but there's always something new that the Spirit can teach us always and I think that will go on for eternity. I don't know when

it'll stop if it'll stop because I'm a Bible person. I love the Bible and I spend a lot of my time on there but these experiences are reminded to me of why I also love the Book of Mormon and need to spend time in it for my personal growth and spiritual journey to the tree. So I can take of the fruit that happens when a spirit teaches me. Yeah, I would describe my experience today, being taught sweet above all that is sweet. It is the fruit. This is part of partaking of the fruit. John, I'm shocked on chapter 10.

Yeah, that's really cool. I've got notes all over my margins now that tie it back to the tree of life, tie it back to Zenus' allegory. And okay, like this flew out of Joseph Smith's imagination, right? Yeah. Gate what a treat. I mean, what a fruit, I should say it has been

or a feast. Yeah, a feast, really. I feel, I feel so full. And in this moment, the space that I'm in right now, the building has lost its appeal. I want to keep doing this. I don't want to stop. Oh, what a good day. What a good day, John. Yeah, I love this because now I'm seeing that's why they needed the brass plates. And then Lehigh reads Zenus' allegory that we have in Jacob five. And how's this all gonna work?

We just got scattered. How do we get back? See the dream and then summarizes it again in 1st Nephi 10. This is how it's gonna work and how we'll be come to the knowledge of the true Messiah and the end. Never sought that way.

That's so good. Wow. Yeah. Gay, thank you for your time. You're not just your time here with us, but for the decades you've spent studying. All glory goes to God. All glory. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for spending your time with us. It has been time well spent. We want to thank Dr. Gay Strathren for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sor Sorcen, our sponsors, David, and

Verla Sorcen, and we always remember our founder, Steve Sorcen. Join us next week, we're in the next few chapters of the Book of Mormon on Follow Him. Today's transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, follow him.co. That's follow him.co. You can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on our Facebook and Instagram accounts. All of this is absolutely free and we'd love for you to share it with your family and friends. We'd like to reach more of those who are searching

for help with their Come Follow Me study. If you could subscribe to, rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Will Stokedon, Crystal Roberts, Arielle Kuadra, and Anna-Beldson. Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him.