Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - 1 Samuel 8-18 -- Part 2 : Dr. Daniel Peterson

Episode Date: June 12, 2022

Dr. Peterson continues and discusses the fall of Saul, David and Goliath, and his personal testimony of Jesus Christ.Please rate and review the podcast!Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/old-testament/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive ProducersDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing & SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Website, Language Team, French Transcripts, Ariel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-piano

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. Dan, it feels like Saul is changing, little by little throughout this story. Yeah, I think he's becoming more self-centered. It's more about him than about the Israelites or his people. And his judgment is suffering. He's making bad decisions. This oath was a really bad decision,

even Jonathan, his son, the crown prince, I mean, to put it in perspective. Jonathan says, this was a bad decision. The warriors would have been more effective. Had they not been hungry and I'm thinking maybe parched with thirst all day long. Why did he do this? It was a silly oath.

And the reason he does it is so that I may be avenged of my enemies or on my enemies. That's not about the well-being of Israel. That's some sort of weird personal thing of his own. Things were bad in the previous chapter. They've gotten much worse in this chapter. And he's even going to follow through because the people then, they're so hungry that they fly upon the spoil. They take sheep and oxen. It says in verse 32 and calves. They slay them on the ground and the people that eat them with the blood.

They're eating it raw. That's pretty weird. But they're eating it with the blood, which is a sin in the eyes of God in terms of the mosaic code. Even Saul is offended by that. So then he says, you've transgressed. Roll a great stone unto me this day in verse 33.

And disperse yourselves in sand. And I mean, every man should bring his ox and his sheep and and slay them here and we'll cook them up so you're not committing this sin. There's more. Saul said, let us go down after the Philistines by night and spoil them. And they say, Oh, whatever you think is right. And he says, Okay, let's draw near unto God, hear the run to God. Saul asked counsel of God, shall I go down after the Philistines? We'll thou deliver them into the hand of Israel, but he answered him not that day.

No answer comes. No, used to an answer coming through the Ephod. It's by, we're not quite sure exactly how this worked, consulting the Ephod, the stones, the Irmanthumem, lots, something like that. But there's no answer. And so, Saul says, well, there must be something like that. But there's no answer. And so, the solstice is where there must be something wrong.

Why is the Lord not answering? There must be a sin in the camp. And as the Lord liveeth, which saveeth Israel, though it be in Jonathan my son, he shall surely die. This is a stupid and rash oath to make. There was not a man among all the people that answered him, then he said, okay, everybody else stand over on this side and Jonathan and I will stand on the side, the other side. And they said, okay, fine. And then they have a perfect lot and Saul and Jonathan are taken, and then a lot falls on Jonathan. And Saul said to Jonathan, verse 43, tell me what thou hast done.

And Jonathan told him and said, I did taste a little honey with the end of the rod that was in my hand. And lo, I must die. Now some versions render this as a question. So I'm supposed to die for this. All I did was take a bit of honey. And it's not like it was a great sin and we would add again. I didn't even hear your oath. I'm not responsible for this. It was a reasonable thing to do. I mean mean Jonathan in every regard is a good guy in these stories. It's sad that he goes down with his father, but eventually and Saul doesn't say well, Son, yeah, that was reasonable and my oath was rash or No, God do so more and more also for thou shalt surely die Jonathan. This is the heir to the throne. This is insane

I think this is the heir to the throne. This is insane. As the people have to intervene and say, what? Jonathan is the hero of the day. Are you kidding? You want to kill him? People rescued Jonathan that he died not. Wow, they swear I know if it looks like

as the Lord live it, there shall not one heir of his, that we got dueling oaths here. Yeah, you know, they're both really solemn oaths. They're saying basically, we will not back down and we will not let you do this. It doesn't matter if you're king and it doesn't matter if you swore an oath.

It's insane. We'll surround and we'll protect them. You will not do this. And so he backs down. Then it goes on to list all of Saul's military successes. He is pretty successful. He smote the amalachides and others and it lists his sons

and gives his genealogy and so on. But then we come to chapter 15, which is the really, well, the beginning of the true catastrophe of Saul. Can I just ask a quick question? You read about amalachites a lot. Did they ever get wiped out? Or do we just smite some of them every once in a while? I think they're just a good group to smite.

My bad is they seem to have been something like Bedouins. So they're kind of hard to wipe out because it gets really bad. They just leave. They just move away and then they come back. It is in a way sort of like guerrilla warfare. They can evaporate. You think you've taken them out, but you're two later. They're back. Maybe it was this group of the malachites, but it was never all

of the amalachites there. Yeah. They seem to live out somewhere in the deserts of Jordan, southern Jordan. This story is just so sad. The downfall of Saul. It's just so disappointing. The way he started. Yeah. And so again, I think one of the questions we have to ask ourselves when we're reading this is, can I see myself in this at all? I was like the question of the last supper. Lord is at I and I'd like to be able to read these counts and say, no, for once that is not something that I've done. Yeah.

There may be other things where I think, oh, that hits a little too close to home, but maybe not this one. Verse 15, he is sent to smite the Amalakites, and it's done. It's kind of an interesting thing. It's for a very historic wrong. They worked against the Israelites when the Israelites came up from Egypt, generations before. The word of the Lord comes to Samuel who says it to Saul. The word of the Lord is this. Go after Amalakites. Smite them them, spare them not, slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, oxen sheep, camel and ass. Now we bought it and read that and think,

oh, that's horrible, what do we make of that? Well, I'm not exactly sure what to make of it. It is altogether possible. I throw this out as kind of a liberal way of reading scriptures, not necessarily mine. But I remember years ago I was writing the Gospel doctrine lesson for the conquest of Canaan. There's a pretty rough language there about eliminating the Canaanites totally.

And about that time I was reading an article in a journal where the guy was saying, you know, the archaeological evidence is that they didn't wipe out all the Canaanites. And they just didn't. There are Canaanite settlements that seem to have survived through this period and so on. It undercuts the story of the conquest in the Bible and I thought, oh, that's tough. And then I thought, no, actually, it would solve some theological problems for me. At least as many as it would create, the conquest wasn't quite as brutal and total as it's made out to be in the scriptures.

This guy was arguing that maybe it had been exaggerated a little bit, sort of glorify our glorious ancestors. They wiped them out totally, where in fact they don't seem to have. Yeah, some hyperbole, perhaps. Yeah, so I'm kind of agnostic on that. I don't know exactly what happened, but if not every woman-infantincycling was killed, that wouldn't hurt my feelings. It's surprising. Yeah.

Kidding. But there is another word to be said for this, for the idea of total destruction, in an odd sort of way. One way of looking at it, people have said, is, well, it was a way of preventing the Israelites from going to battle for gain, to get all the spoils.

Because it was saying, all the spoils go to the Lord. You fight these battles for the Lord, you don't get any profit out of it. Because there were a lot of people who just fought all the time to steal things. Somebody has something I want. I go take it. Well, if you take it and then you have to offer it up as a sacrifice, you think, yeah, you know, I'm thinking I'll risk myself for that one again. There is one school, I don't know how I'm thinking I'll risk myself for that one again. There is one school, I don't know how persuasive this is, that suggests that maybe it's a way of limiting the brutality of warfare. You only fight when it's a divine command, not just because you want to steal somebody else's

stuff. And I suspect when we wake up on the other side and learn exactly what happened, we may say, oh, okay, all right, I get it now. But the command here seems to be ghosts might, the Amalekites totally wiped them out. But there's also a bit of mercy, the key knights who were also a Bedouin group who lived among the Amalekites

had been kind to the Israelites when they came through. And Saul warns them and says, look, you get out because we're coming after the Amalekites and we don't wanna kill you by mistake. So just withdraw, go somewhere else because we're coming after the Malakites and we don't want to kill you by mistake. So just withdraw. Go somewhere else because we're coming. And so there is that mercy.

But then Saul has the tremendous military success. Smites the Amalakites all the way down almost to the borders with Egypt. So way down in southern Jordan or that area, I I'm guessing below Akaban Elat. But he takes Agag, the king of the Amalakites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep and of the oxen

of the fatlings and the lambs and all that was good and would not utterly destroy them. But everything that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly. Oh, this is a really good policy. We'll destroy all the garbage that we didn't want anyway. That's a real sacrifice. But we're going to save all the potentially strong slaves, keep the good stuff. So the word of the Lord comes to Samuel saying, it repented to me. Now, the JST changes that a little bit. I've set up Saul to be a king and he repented not

that he had sinned. This is a turning point. It's, I've set up Saul to be a king, and he repenteth not that he had sinned. This is a turning point. It's not just the Saul's line will not succeed to the monarchy. It's that Saul himself is now rejected. But as the King James reads, it repented to me that I've set up Saul to be king. I mean, it shows that God has the decree is different now. For he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments, and it grieved Samuel, and he cried unto the Lord all night. There are several

point notes like this, as I've said, where Samuel was saddened by this, but Samuel comes to Saul in verse 13, Saul said unto him, blessed be thou of the Lord, I performed the commandment of the Lord, and Samuel said, what meaneth then, this bleeding of the sheep in my ears and the loin of the oxen which I hear. I've always let that a really funny line. So you wiped everything out, but it's funny. Who are you going to believe me or your lying ears? That's just a Yeah. But I can hear all these animals. This is we're going to sacrifice them. That's why we've saved them. Right, you're not going to sacrifice Agag the King.

They don't do human sacrifice. So Agag was meant to be most likely part of a royal triumph, where you parade him around the villages and boasts. Look at the great things I did. I conquered Agag. Here's this king I've got him in a cage. I mean, that's an age old thing.

The Romans did it all the time and other people did it too. Capture the foreign monarch and you show him off. And that's what Saul probably wants to do. He did. Otherwise, he would have just killed him. So Samuel said, and to Saul, stay. And I will tell thee what the Lord had said to me this night. And he said unto him, say on.

I don't think he knows what's coming. And Samuel said, when thou us little, and this is kind of what we've been talking about the whole time, when thou us little in my own sight was that not made the head of the tribes of Israel and the Lord had known to the king over Israel. But what he's implying is,

now you're not little in your own sight. You think you're big stuff. And so he says, no, we're going to sacrifice them. And then he blames it on the people, verse 21, the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, just sacrifice into the Lord thy God and Gil-Gal. Well, again, are you the king or are you not?

I mean, the people did it. You couldn't have stopped them or said, this is the command of the Lord. And then Samuel responds with what is one of the classic lines in all of scripture. And Samuel said, half the Lord has great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord, behold, who obey is better than sacrifice and to huck in the thine fat of rams. And then he says at the end of the next verse, because thou it has rejected the word of the Lord, he also rejected thee from being king.

It's a powerful rebuke that you are in effect rejected. You are, you're no longer the divinely chosen king. And the Lord, yeah, you're gonna sacrifice them supposedly, but the Lord didn't ask you to sacrifice them. He asked you to destroy them and you didn't do it. If they don't get anything from the sacrifice, I think you may have just started to answer it. They say they were going to sacrifice it

because is this one of those sacrifices that it's basically a barbecue? We're gonna eat it. Yeah, I think it is. Okay, so it's not really a total sacrifice then. Yeah, you offer it to the Lord, but yeah, then God doesn't come down and eat the meat, so God don't waste it. So we're going to have a feast.

This is going to be great. I suspect that's what's going on here. Because otherwise, I can see how well, we're not going to benefit from any of it, but if the sacrifice means we may eat it, then I can see why, no, this is selfish. We're calling it a sacrifice, but it's actually selfish because we're going to hold something back, or we're going to keep it or eat it or something. Yeah, I think that the Lord has seen through what they were claiming and so is Samuel. It's just tragically sad, but there's self-centeredness going on here. And so I'll set into Samuel. I've sinned. And Saul said in the Samuel, I've sinned, and finally he admits it,

for I've transgressed the commandments of the Lord, and thy words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice. He's still kind of blaming it on them. Now therefore I pray they pardon my sin, turn again with me, that I may worship the Lord, and Samuel said in the Saul, I will not return with thee. For thou hast rejected the word of the Lord,

and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. He repeats it, Saul is thinking, well, okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, now, turn with me, we can get past this. And Samuel says, no, nope, I will not go back with you. And again, the Lord has rejected you, you are a done. And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, Saul did, and it rent. This is another of those similarly situations. And Sam will sit unto him, the Lord hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day,

and hath given it to a neighbor of thine that is better than thou. Of this is merciless in a way. So Saul is still, it's almost pathetic. He says in verse 30, he said, I have sinned yet on to me now. I pray thee before the elders of my people and before Israel and turn again with me that I may worship the Lord thy God. So Samuel turned again after Saul and Saul worshiped the Lord. I mean, kind of, it's a last bit of mercy. And then I'm gone.

This shows Samuel being tough, then said Samuel, bring ye hither to me, a god the king of the Amalekites, and a god came unto him delicately. You can imagine this, he's coming out very cautiously like what's gonna happen timidly, I think might be a good word. And a god said, surely the bitterness of death has passed. If they were gonna kill me, they would have done it already. And Samuel said, as thy sword hath made women childless, social thy mother be childless among women, and Samuel huge a dragon piece of wood all down. That's tough. That is tough. Yeah, they didn't make that in a seminary movie, that part right there. Nope. Nope. And then sad again, Samuel went to Rama,

saw one up to his house to Ghibli of Saul. Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless, Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel. Well, again, the idea is that the Lord doesn't repent of it. I think the Lord is sorrowful over what happened to Saul. Saul had his agency, and he's chosen to go wrong. And yet to me, it's, what did the Lord say? In first Samuel 8. All right, you won a king, but here's what's gonna happen.

And Saul goes down that very path and to be honest, so David. I know this is so sad. This is the end story of David is not all that happy, though. He starts off even better than Saul did. One thought here, I was looking at when Saul is first told he's going to be king. I'm a nobody. I'm a Benjamin from a small tribe of visual.

I'm a nobody from a nobody tribe. And then Samuel saying to him in chapter 15, when you were little in your own sight. Oh, and then I wanted to read this. This is from October 2010, General Conference, Elder Uchturff. He brought it to everybody's mind. The 1989 talk from President Ezra Taf Benson on Beware of Pride. And he brought that to everybody's attention. Yeah, I just wanted to read one part of it. He said, Pride is the great sin of self-elevation. It is for so many a personal ramey-umptum, a holy stand that justifies envy, greed, and vanity.

In a sense, Pride is the original sin for before the foundations of this earth-pride-feld Lucifer, a son of the morning who was an authority in the presence of God, if Pride can corrupt one as capable and promising as this. Now Elder Uttar was talking about Lucifer here, but we could be talking about Saul as well. If pride can corrupt as one is capable and promising as this, should we not examine our own souls as well? What you said, Dan, Lord, is it I, examine your own soul for this kind of pride? Oh, so this is just a heartbreaking story. Can I offer a good example?

The years ago they made a video about Hugh Nibbly called Faith of an Observer. Does that ring a bell? And Truman Madsen is talking about these books they wanted to make of all of Hugh Nibbly's books. And he said, I wanted to call it the Hugh Nibbly legacy. I don't like it, I'm not dead yet, Hugh Nibbly said. I don't know what's a legacy, I don't know, and Truman Madson says, we were at the Galley proofs stage, we were just about to go to press, so I thought I had him and I said, do you mean to tell me

Hugh Nibbly, you care that much about a title and Hugh Nibbly said, no, I care that little about royalties. Boom. And hung up. Right. Yeah. Well, on that video, I think he Nibbly says, none of us is very smart. None of us knows very much. This heunibly, who's like 33 languages or something, but what the angels NVS for is we can forgive and we can repent. Here's heunib, able to maintain that,

well, we don't know that much, but we can forgive and we can repent. I guess we're trying to stay little in our own sight. I would hear Hugh Nibbley talk sometimes, even privately, he'd just say, look, we're all idiots. I mean, we know so little about what the Lord is talking about, what the Lord is doing, how the Lord thinks, and so on. We just don't know much of anything.

There's no reason for any of us to be vain, because we're so pathetically small compared to the universe. I love the line in Moses. Now I know that man is nothing, which I never opposed. I'll tell a story if you don't mind. And I may have told it last time because one of my absolute favorite stories. I was taking my my youngest son and one of his friends to preschool. They were talking in the back seat of the car years ago. And I wasn't really paying attention to what they were saying. And all

of a sudden I heard one say, wow, this teacher is really hard. And the other one responded, yeah, but I heard that kindergarten is even worse. And I thought, these guys have no idea what's coming. Algebra and trigonometry and you know, all that sort of stuff. But they were so serious. It sounded so solemn in the back. And I thought, that's really funny. But then all of a sudden, I hadn't been thinking about theology or doctrine or anything like that. All of a sudden, it came to my mind that the distance between even the wisest parent and the youngest child is nothing like as great as the distance between God and humans. If I thought that was funny, I kind of imagined how the Lord must feel sometimes about hearing

us very learnably discourse on things. And I kind of imagined the scene of God's seated upon his throne, and he calls the angels over. He says, Hey, you got it. Here it is. The high priests are doing theology. You know, aren't they cute? We're so solemn debating questions like, you know,

is God's knowledge infinite or is he growing in knowledge? Am I feeling about questions like that as always been? I wouldn't even know what it meant to answer it one way or the other. I mean, I'm on such a, I'm a nat compared to him. Don't even bother me with questions like that. I'm looking up a quote from Henry Eiring, senior brilliant chemist. Probably should have won the Nobel Prize, right?

He talks about going into his lab at the University of Utah and how the Lord must think it's adorable with his little chemistry set. Here it is contemplating the awe-inspiring order in the universe, extending from the almost infinitely small to the infinitely large. One is overwhelmed with its grandeur and with the limitless wisdom which conceived, created, and governs at all, our understanding great as it sometimes seems can be nothing but the wide-eyed wonder of a child when measured against omniscience. Here's a man who's probably the best in his field in chemistry and still sees himself as a child in comparison to God. I just thought that fit your story perfectly.

So the good attitude to have. But when we've got some humility, then God helps us. I love the story that President Nelson tells about being told as he was doing surgery, how to repair that heart valve. When you've got humility, then you get this help. But if we go into it, think we already know everything. We close ourselves off from learning anything. I'm going to tell one more story before we move on from this. This is a shout out to my friend, Myron Richens, up in Hennifer, Utah.

I got a shout out from Elder Uktorff in general conference. Elder Uktorff told this story about President Richens. He said during the 150th anniversary of the Pioneers arrival in the Salt Lake Valley, brother Myron Richens was serving as the state president in Hanna for Utah. The celebration included a reenactment of Pioneers' passage through his town. President Richens was heavily involved with the plans for the celebration. He attended many meetings with General Authorities and others to discuss the events he was fully engaged.

Just before the actual celebration, President Richens's stake was reorganized and he was released. On a subsequent Sunday, he was attending his ward pre-stud meeting when the leaders asked for volunteers to help with the celebration. President Richin, along with others, raised his hand and was given instructions to dress and work clothes and to bring his truck and shovel. Finally, the morning of the big event came President Richin's reported to volunteer duty. On the a few weeks before, he had been an influential contributor to the planning and supervision

of this major event. On that day, however, his job was to follow the horses in the parade and clean up after them. President Ritchins did so gladly, and joyfully. He understood that one kind of service is not above another. He knew and put into practice the words of the Savior. He that is greatest among you shall be your servant. Don't you wish Saul could have kept that attitude.

I remember a fellow that I knew in a war done in California. I think he's still active in the church. He's a good guy fundamentally, but he was a high priced corporate lawyer. And at one point, we were asked to go down and work at the welfare canary somewhere. I remember going and by the way it was funny because just if everybody I was working with was either a graduate student working on a PhD or was on the faculty, you know, with a PhD. But this guy refused to go. He said, look, you know, do you realize how much I get paid per hour for my work? So I could

hire 10 people to do this. And the time it would take me to go and work there at the canary. And I thought, you know what? You probably need this more than any of the rest of us do. You need to go work at the canary. It would be good for your soul. Because of course you could hire 10 people to work at the canary. If that were the only point of it, yeah. This is a powerful lesson, Dan. I just love that phrase. When you are little in thine own sight, that's a good one to mark, isn't it? Yeah, because he was, and now he isn't. Dan, I know that you'll disagree here, but whenever I've seen you, talked with you, met you,

you know languages, you know the backwards and forwards of church history, you've always been down to earth, easy going, never don't talk to me. It's never been a hint of arrogance when I've heard you talking with other people, you're willing to talk to the taxi cab drivers, much as you are to to Mary and D. Hanks. I grew up in a family that was a working class family. My uncles were truck drivers and farmers and families involved in the construction business. I was watching a documentary the other day in Bob Barker of the prices, right? He used to go out and greet the tour buses personally and someone said, why do you do that? Why do you take time for that?

And he said, I got to thank these people. If it weren't for them, I'd have to work. Right? Jimmy Stewart was the same way. He'd always talk to people. And, you know, these are my partners. If they watch my movies, they're my partners. There's a wonderful story about him when he was in the military because he rose to the rank of Brigadier General. And he was a pretty serious soldier. He was a bomber, something rather in Hollywood too. But at one point, they were on leave in, in a near New York city,

and all of his pals and his barracks wanted to go into Goof-Off in New York. And he said, no, I won't go with you. And the reason he didn't go is he was already a star before World War II began. And he said, he was just worried that if he went there, they wouldn't be able to have a good time. Because everywhere they went, people would gather around him and it ruined the evening.

So he stayed home in the barracks and read a book. It wasn't because he was arrogant. It's quite the contrary. He wanted his friends to have a good time and he didn't want to root it for him. He probably wanted to be there, too. Yeah. He said at one be there too. Yeah. He said at one point that he was, people should be grateful to Hollywood because he graduated from Princeton University with a degree in architecture, but he said they should be grateful to Hollywood

that spared the world a really mediocre architect. Oh, that attitude is so refreshing. Yeah. Yeah. That attitude is refreshing. I hope everybody less needs going. You know what? I need to have that attitude.

Call. Well, should we look at chapter 16? Yeah. Let's talk. This is where the thing really shifts. We're now looking at David. Saul has been rejected. He may linger on his King for a little while,

but he's not the Lord's choices King. And we're gonna see the Lord's choice in chapter 16. So the Lord said unto Samuel, how long will Thou mourn for Saul? Seeing I've rejected him from raining over Israel. Phil Dina Horne with the oil and go. I will send thee to Jesse, the Bethlehemite, for I've provided me a King among his sons.

And so he goes to Bethlehem, they're a little nervous. He's nervous because he's afraid now that Saul will see him as an enemy and maybe even try to kill him. But the Lord gives him a bit of subterfuge, go take a half run, say you're gonna offer a sacrifice, and then invite the family of Jesse to come. And so they come and he looks on Eliab, and this is interesting, here's the prophet acting

as a human being. His response when looks on Eliab. And this is interesting. Here's the prophet acting as a human being. His response when he sees Eliab is surely, the Lord's anointed is before me. Yeah, this is him. And the Lord's response is great. But the Lord said unto Samuel, look not on his countenance or on the height of his stature because I've refused him.

For the Lord seeeth not as man seeeth. For man look at that in the outward appearance But the Lord look at on the heart. There's some great lines in these chapters some the finest null scripture And so you have this review where he has him called the different sums of bin-adab and shaman and Seven of the sons and he says are these all the children you've caught I've looked at all of them and He's not here. This is not the Lord's anointed and he says, are these all the children you've caught? I've looked at all of them and he's not here. This is not the Lord's anointed. And he's well, there's one other, you know, he's out there, he's keeping the sheep,

he didn't even bother bringing him. And Samuel said unto Jesse, send and fetch him for we will not sit down until he come here there. And of course, that's the one. And verse 13, Samuel takes the horn of oil and anoints him in the midst of his brethren. And the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up and went to Rama.

Now, it's interesting that he doesn't do it privately. He doesn't in the midst of David's brethren. So there are witnesses. They can't say later on that, well, it's just David claiming this story. We don't know that it really happened. There are witnesses, but it's done more or less privately. So the Spirit comes upon David, but the Spirit in verse 14, departs from Saul. And an evil spirit from the Lord, it says in the King James, troubled him.

Now, routinely, when it talks about an evil spirit from the Lord, the JST corrects this and says it was an evil spirit which was not of the Lord. Now I don't know if the JST is offering us the original reading or whether it's correcting an error in the original text, or but it certainly is giving us to understand this evil spirit doesn't come from God. And what it means that an evil spirit came upon him,

I don't know, it could be something given their attitudes as simple as depression or might be madness. I don't know. The spirit of contention, hatred. I got a bad feeling about this. Yep, yep. And so this is not the soul that we met

in for a Samuel 8, a last. Soul serving, set into him, behold down, evil spirit from God, trouble of thee or from not from God. So go find somebody who's a good player on the harp, the liar. This is where David is introduced to Saul. One of the versions, now it's puzzling. I will admit, sometimes you look as if you've got two different sources here, kind of crammed together. It's hard to, because in the next chapter, David's introduced again.

So how to reconcile that, I don't quite know. But we do know that David is the harpist, the solmost, musically gifted, a poet, and he's introduced that way here. So when this evil spirit comes upon Saul, whatever it is, depression, anxiety, madness, something, it helps to have music played there. And we know that's true.

That's actually clinically true that in some cases music can help people. I know in cases when people have suffered from dementia all the time as they can be agitated, if you play a song they knew, they'll remember the song, begin humming along with it. Or are you in one case that I know a woman who had severe dementia could still play the piano and remember the old songs that she'd played for years. Music is powerful and so it's one of the ways we teach, it's one of the ways people internalize the gospel. There are a whole lot of songs out there where I think, well, if you start me on it, I

can go pretty far before I lose the words. It's amazing how much of this, well, if you start me on it, I can go pretty far before I lose the words. It's amazing how much of this, well, any effort made to memorize it. I've memorized reams of song lyrics, which contain a lot of wholesome doctrine. How coincidental that the same person they call up is the one the Lord has anointed as the next king. Yeah. He comes to Saul and stood before him and Saul loves him greatly and became his armor bearer and I think that is David became Saul's armor bearer and I think one of the things that that we see about David is that and his name has to do with being beloved Everybody seems to like him the early David. I mean People fall in love with him. He just he's lovable and it but does say that in verse 23, when this evil spirit from God or not from God is the Joseph Smith translation,

says, was upon Saul, they would took him harp and played with his hand. Saul was refreshed and was well. And the evil spirit departed from him. So now we get into one of those famous chapters in all of scripture, one that kids act out and, right, and so on all the time. Do we have time for a dad joke, Hank? Please. Yeah. There's always time for a dad joke.

Yeah, the harp said to the other harp, you're not a harp, you're not big enough to be a harp and the other one said, are you calling me a liar? So. Thank you, John. That's good. We needed that break before we met Goliath. The Philistines gathered together, their armies to battle, and the two armies face off in

the Valley of Illa. It's a battle, well, it's not yet a battle between the Philistines and the Israelites. They're on opposing mountains looking across this valley. Now, here's the scary thing. They went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, verse four, named Goliath of Gath, whose height was six qubits in a span. That's been estimated at about nine feet. Now, I don't know if that's exaggerated or not, but that's huge.

You can imagine somebody like that would terrify everybody. Heck, he can reach out his arm and reach you and you're not even close. And so he scares them to death and he comes out and he challenges them. He's got this heavy armor, which they couldn't even carry, right? The staff of his spear was like a weaver's beam. It says, the spear's head weighed 600 shekels of iron. That's pretty impressive. One bearing a shield went before him and then he challenges them. Verse 8, he stood and cried under the armies of Israel and said unto them, why are you come out to set your battle in array? Am I not a Philistine?

And he servants to Saul, remember. That's the phrase early on in verse 8 that he'll make you his servants. Well, he has certainly in the eyes of Philistines and the eyes of Goliath. You're a servants to Saul. Choose you a man for you and let him come down to me. And then he lays out this idea that if the two of us fight and if he kills me, then we'll be your servants, your slaves. But if I kill him, then you'll be my servants, or slaves, or our servants, or slaves. Now, that actually was a common practice in some cultures to have single combat before a battle like this. And it was a way of saving lives, I suppose, if you really bound yourselves by oath,

we'll risk everything on single combat. We'll send out our best warrior and you send out yours. And so the Philistines says, I defy the armies of Israel to stay. Give me a man that we may fight together. When Saul and all Israel heard those words of the Philistine they were dismayed and greatly afraid. And here again, they had wanted King because the King was going to lead them, fight our battles, and because he was tall, he was head and shoulders above everybody else. But now he's met somebody who's easily head and shoulders more above him. And this is terrifying. So if you put your trust in the arm of flesh, eventually somebody will come along

with a more powerful arm. Yeah, with more flesh. Well put. Well put. Yeah. So they're terrified and they're, yeah, they're just kind of immobilized there. No one dares to go up against him.

Everybody knows if I go up against him, I'm dead. And what's more, if I'm up against him, I'm dead. And what's more, if I'm killed according to the terms of that agreement, then my people are enslaved. I can't do this. Right. I won't win. But the three eldest sons of Jesse are there and David is the youngest of them.

He's not there to battle. He's too young, according to this version. Three eldests would solve. But David would go back and forth. He's taking care of the family's sheep at Bethlehem, which is not terribly far away. And the Philistine every day would come out. It says he did it 40 days. Now, I don't know if it's literally 40 days or not. 40 days in the ancient Middle East and the medieval Middle East off of meant a long time, lots of days. Alibaba in the 40 Thieves, you know, 40 days in the wilderness, 40 days of rain.

Maybe literally 40 in every case, it might just mean a lot. Jesse says, take some food, find out what's happening, bring me a report and so on. And yeah, there's funny little family scene where the one brother's kind of mad at him. You're just out here because you want to see the battle. Young guy just wants to get a thrill and see the battle.

But David finds out there's a promise made. There's a dilemma. Will anybody go out and fight this Philistine? And David says, maybe I should do it. And so Saul sends for him. And when they're together in verse 32 and 33, David said to Saul, let no man's heart fail because of him. I servant will go and fight with this Philistine.

David. No, this is an astonishing thing. David, who's apparently a kid, he's a shepherd. And Saul said to David, they're not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him for they're up, but a youth. And he a man of war from his youth. He's a professional soldier. Now, it's interesting that in the previous chapter, David had been declared a mighty man of war. So, you know, there's something garbled here, I think, in

these chapters that David might become a mighty man of war later, but he certainly isn't when he first meets Saul at this battle, is everyone thinks and Goliath thinks, too. Are you mocking me? Seriously, you send a shepherd kid out? Yeah, this is a joke, right? I'll kill him, but you know, this isn't serious. And so he goes out Eventually to fights, but there's an interesting passage in the meantime. He says to Saul You think I can't do this look. I trust in God. Again, this is good David early on before he's corrupted as As Saul has been by the monarchy. Verse 37, the Lord that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, he tells these stories about the beast he's faced,

you know, when he's been defending the sheep. And out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. And Saul said unto David, go, and the Lord be with thee. It's interesting to me that Saul is willing to put everything on this throw of the dice, but maybe he sent something in David.

You know, David is so confident. The Lord may well be with him. This is not the kind of bet that a normal, worldly person would make. I mean, you'd tot up all the factors and think, not a chance. We're not going to put the whole fate of Israel on a shepherd kid. But Saul says, okay, I guess you're a guy. And then he arms him. I think this is kind of touching to versus 38 and he 40. He arms him with his own armor. Chose he's putting confidence in him, but David finally says, I can't go with these, or I've not proved them.

Well, what does he mean? He's not used to this stuff. I can't fight with this. It's too heavy. No, I'd rather go out without anything. So he took his staff in his hand and chose him five smooth stones out of the brook. Put them in a shepherd's bag, which he had, even in a script, which is, you know, we use that term without purse or a script. This is kind of what it means, a bag. And his sling was in his hand that he drew near to the Philistine. Now, they're not little stones. I read some things where people have argued that they might have been roughly as big as a baseball or something. I mean, this is a serious sling. When you sling this at a bear or a lion, if you hit him, it's going to do damage. I've had kids sling

stones at me in Palestine. I hate to say it, but they have. But first of all, their aim is terrible. They never come close. Secondly, I think even if they hit me, I hate to say it, but they have. But first of all, their aim is terrible, they never come close. Secondly, I think even if they hit me, I'm not sure it would do much. It's sting a little bit. But this is a serious rock. With this thing, right, Dan, you can get these things cooking. Yeah, you can. Somewhere I read years ago, I think, if you're good at it, you can get that rock going up to about a hundred miles an hour. That's as fast as the fastest major league pitchers can hurl a baseball.

You add to the length of your arm, the length of the sling. And so yeah, you can really, I remember home teaching a guy back in the day. And he pulled out some, I don't know, scientific American magazine or something and showed me an article about these guys that could hurl rocks with slings. And it was fascinating how accurate and how fast from long range gave me new respect for this story. Yeah, I mean, on one level, it seems kind of ridiculous for a shepherd kid with sling, a sling and some rocks to go out and face Goliath.

But it's not quite as ridiculous as it may seem. He's pretty good with this, I'm guessing. And if you've seen shepherds in places like the Middle East, mostly the day is nothing but boredom. She probably doing anything, she was just munching on the grass. And so a lot of time to sling stones and get pretty accurate at it.

He's confident if he had gone out with the sword in the armor, he didn't have any of that. Yeah, never practiced that. So he wants to do what he's good at. And it does show, I think, that people should go with their strengths, bring their strengths to the kingdom. This might maybe stretching on this point, but we're good at some things.

We're not as good at others. We don't have to be the other guy. We should bring what we have. That's what David did. He didn't allow himself to be made into something he wasn't. He came bring what we have. That's what David did. He didn't allow himself to be made into something he wasn't. He came as what he was. John calls that dance with Hu Brungia. What got you to the finals? What got you to the, just keep doing that? This place in the, in the brackets. You're dance with Hu Brungia. Yeah. You try to do something very different and you may lose all together

because you just, you're not used to it. You don't do this. That's a good point with David. He knew how to do this. When the Philistine looked about and saw David, he disdained him for he was put a youth and ruddy and of a fair countenance. The Philistine said, and David, am I a dog? That comes to me with staves. The Philistine cursed David by his gods.

And the Philistine said to David, come to me and I will give thy flesh under the fowls of the air and to the beasts of the field. He's a charming guy. But he doesn't take this very seriously. Figures, okay, if they're stupid enough to send you out, I'm gonna kill you. No sentimentality here. But then this is another one of those great lines, I think.

David said to the Philistines, thou come us to me with a sword and with a spear and with a shield. But I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied. And I think, boy, this is the kind of thing. I love the defiance of it. Sometimes when I see enemies of the kingdom and so on, I think, well, you may have a lot of things going for you,

but we come in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the kingdom and so on, I think, well, you may have a lot of things going for you, but we come in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel. And so in the end, we're gonna win. What's wonderful there is he's not saying, I'm really good with this sling. He's talking about God and the Lord of hosts, hosts, meaning armies. And then he's gonna give all the glory to God, verse 46, when I win, all the earth will know that there is a God in Israel at the end of verse 46. And all this assembly, shall know that the lords save if not with sword and spear for the battle is the lords, and he will give you into our hands. It's a very Captain Moroni that he always gave credit to God when they were victorious and always took responsibility when they weren't. Yeah, and the laymen I'd say, we'll try to say the one command is, oh, come on, we just

know what you're better armor. You just get better armor. Yeah. No, that's not it. We don't need Nessar 71. We don't need Google Earth. We have a prophet. Alma, where should we go to defend ourselves?

Yeah, kind of advanced early warning system. So, verse 48, so the Philistines rose and came and drew an eye to meet David and then David hasted and ran toward the army to meet the Philistines. There's no hesitation here. These hold back. The Philistines advances, David runs toward him. David put his hand in his bag and took that s a stone and slang it and smote the Philistine in his forehead that the stone sunk into his forehead. They fill upon his face to the earth. Now I remember many years ago hearing President Mary and G. Romney speak at BYU I think. He was telling this story and I just remember it just as an aside. He read this line, the stone sunk into his forehead, and then he looked up and he said, nothing like this had ever entered Goliath's mind before.

And he falls with his face to the earth, David prevails with a sling and a stone. And he goes up and he didn't have a sword. So he runs up. He takes the Philistine sword, draws it out of the sheath, and slays him, and then takes his head. So it's an amazing story. And of course, it makes David, in a sense. It makes him famous. When Saul saw David go forth under the Philistines, he wants to know who son it is. And he doesn't know. He doesn't know yet. So this is part of the problem that I have where I think something's garbled here, because he already knows him. He says,

who son art thou, thou young man? And David answered, I am the son of thy servant, Jesse, the Bethlehemites. But here's where people begin to fall in love with him. Chapter 18, and we'll go through this fairly quickly. That is a lot of good stuff here. First of all, it tells how the crown prince, Saul's own son, just is smitten with David.

And Jonathan was, the soul of, Jonathan was knit with the soul of David verse 1 of chapter 18 And Jonathan loved him as his own soul and Saul took him that day and would let him go no more home to his father's house I mean even Saul is kind of taken with me at first and Jonathan and David made a covenant because he loved him as his own soul And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, gave it to David and his garments, even to his sword and to his bow and to his girdle. He's almost declaring David the real heir.

He's giving him a lot of the royal apparel and so on. He may know the fact that it's been predicted he will not succeed to the throne and he recognizes David for who he is. This brings up a question in my mind. And like you said, it's little garbled, but it's like, didn't we just read Saul? You're no longer king. Or was that more of a prophecy?

Or was that more of a, you're going to dwindle in your kingshipness. You know, what's happening? He's rejected as the divinely chosen king, but he lasts on as king for a little while longer. Okay, divinely ch- you've lost divine favor. Samuel goes to find David and then so the transition is a little slower than, okay, you're defractor, something like that.

Now, it goes on and eventually Saul and Jonathan both, unfortunately, are killed in battle. And even then, you know, David has this really interesting attitude. He's not happy about it. He reverends the anointing of the Lord. The Lord doesn't just intervene and say, okay, here's a heart attack, you're gone. But he's deprived him of his favor. So David went out wherever Saul sent him and he was very effective.

He was accepted in the sight of all the people. When David returns from one slot of the Philatines, the women came out of all the cities of Israel, singing and dancing to meet King Saul with tabrets, with joy and with instruments of music. And this is what sets Saul just mad. The women answered one another as they played and said, Saul hath slain his thousands and

David his ten thousands. Now it has to be said, this is the kind of parallelism you sometimes see in Semitic poetry. They weren't necessarily saying that David is better, but that's how Saul heard it. He goes berserk. Saul was very wrought that says, saying this pleased him. He said, they've ascribed into David 10,000s. And to me they've ascribed but thousands. What can he have more but the kingdom? I mean, they guys practically king already and Saul eyed David from that day and forward. Yeah, this is the terrible thing. I'm easy. The head that wears the crown, right? There's always somebody trying to take it away from you. And Saul already knows

by divine revelation that his throne is not safe. He's very suspicious. But does he accept it as the will of the Lord? No, no, he doesn't. He rebels against it. It was just confirms the Lord's choice. So David is playing the harp at one point and Saul tries to kill him. Apparently twice. Now this may be madness. It may, who knows, but I'm saying something has gone off the rails here. Such a sad story of Saul. Oh, it is. You know, unlike Job, who says, the Lord giveeth, and the Lord takeeth away, blessed be the name of the Lord. Saul rebels. He knows what the Lord has said, but he's not going to make it easy. And he's going to try to kill

the Lord's anointed, even when he knows who it is. Though Saul was afraid of David, he made him his captain. He sent him out to fight, probably hoping he'd be killed. And he says, okay, now look, I'm supposed to give you my daughter to wife. I kind of promised that for killing Goliath, but he decides I'm going to try to take him out. Verse 17, Saul said, let not mine hand be upon him, but let the hand of the Philistines be upon him. I'm going to keep exposing him to battle in such a way that eventually he dies. Now, the irony is that eventually this is the kind of thing David's going to do with

Euryah the Hittite. He will literally put Euryah in a situation where Euryah's bound to be killed to cover up David's sin with Beth Sheba. I mean, there are foreshadowing here that are sad, but he doesn't give the right daughter to David. He gives Michelle, or Michelle. She's in love with David, and it's Saul is pleased. He thinks I can use her to punish David. David acts the modest part. I can't be the king's son-in-law. I mean, look who I

am. I'm just a humble guy. But Saul says no, no. Do you think that reminded Saul of himself? Who am I? And what is my life that I should be the son-in-law of the King? He's like, I used to sound like that. Yeah, you might remind him of that. I used to be humble before I was great, but now I'm the King boy. I demand adulation of the crowds and it's all about me and I think we're seeing repetition of the story of Saul in a way and I wish it ended a little better than it does. But this is again a warning to us. Saul and David were both the Lord's choices, and they both went wrong. And so we have to ask ourselves again, how am I doing? The scriptures are not meant to record the weaknesses of others so that we can gloat. They're meant for us to look at them and say, yeah, hope I'm not doing this. What can I learn from this

story? So Saul gives him a task, the bride price for his daughter, and it's a pretty gruesome one by our standards. He, first 25, kings says, look, I don't need any dowry. Just bring me 100 four skins of the Philistines to be avenged of the king's enemies. And the idea is Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. It's basically telling him, bring me 100 scouts.

That's sort of the same thing. And so David goes out and kills 200 Philistines. He's basically telling him, bring me a hundred scouts. That's sort of the same thing. And so David goes out and kills 200 Philistines, brings him 200 trophies. He is given to wife, Saul's daughter, and that just makes Saul all the more afraid of him. He's paranoid about him. The David just continues to grow. He does everything right. So far, he's on the trajectory that Saul once was. And that's how the story ends as far as the chapters we read today, which is that Saul has been rejected of the Lord and a new person has been found who will, at least for a while, follow after the way the Lord wants him to live. I just think these are such powerful human stories, tragic, tragic stories.

There's some doctrine in it, but it's not mostly about doctrine. It's about how we behave, how we obey the Lord, and how we deal with the blessings the Lord has given us, and who takes the credit for the blessings that we get in our achievements. And that's relevant to every one of us. And in daily life, these stories are not just about a long ago time. They're about about us. If you don't sometimes see yourself in Saul or David, or at least ask yourself whether you can, then you're not reading it correctly, in my view. Somebody we've talked to in the past, or maybe something I was reading, just kind of said they loved the Old Testament because it was a book of stories as so many stories.

These are powerful, amazing, unforgettable stories and sometimes they're difficult stories. To read, but I like, how are they dealing with God? How are they understanding the Lord's will? How are they conducting themselves before the Lord? Are they staying humble? I guess that's what we dry out, you know. Hugh Nibbli once described the scriptures as the field notes of the priesthood. And I think that's a kind of interesting take on it. They're the notes of people who tried to live the gospel sometimes well, sometimes badly, sometimes who forgot what they were supposed to be doing,

but they're the notes about people's experiences with God, not just the priesthood. This is certainly true for women as well, for anybody who's trying to keep covenants and so on, there are good examples and bad examples and examples that maybe hit a little too close to home for us. So I love the Old Testament for the same reason that there's just so much in it where I think,

well, I know a case like that, or I've seen something like that, that's happened sort of in my case. I haven't fought Goliath, but I kind of know, I know some of the issues that are going on here or interacting with someone who is trying to do you harm or trying to, where you're trying to not take the credit for things that have gone well. I think that Hank's mentioning President Benson's beware of Pride talk. We can either be humble or we can be compelled to be humble. Make your choice there Yeah, in the end every knee will bow. Yeah Now will bow willingly out of reverence or not

It will bow So that was helpful to me because I kept thinking, I thought Saul wasn't the king anymore, but it was more of a, you've got, you lost God's favor. Now watch this slow transition take over. The prophet selected David. There's a political ruler, a religious ruler, maybe, is a way to look at it. Is that fair? Yeah. And you know, to use language out of the New Testament, if Saul were speaking, if he were seeing clearly, he'd say, he must increase, but I must decrease,

from this point. But it's not going to be sudden. I have a testimony of the scriptures. I have a strong testimony. These stories are given to us, for us to learn from. And the lessons in them are almost infinitely rich. I mean, you can read the scriptures and see a different thing every time you read them. That's true of all great books, I think, is that you read them a second time, you think, wow, I didn't understand it that way before.

But it's true in spades of the scriptures that they're almost infinitely, inexhaustibly rich. And these stories, I think they meant something to me when I was a teenager and I read them. They mean something very different to me now. And depending on how much longer I live, they'll mean something to me different again, based on my experiences and so on. So I remember home teaching so many years ago

and I was a kid and we were trying to get him to commit, he wasn't active, but he had been. We were trying to get him to commit to read the scriptures and he said, Oh, I read them. I think, well, you don't just read them and be done with it. Yeah, I mean, a simple story you read it and you find out the butler did it. Okay, that's all that was of any interest. There's no reason. No reason to ever read it again because you know, but but a really great book, even a great novel, you read it again and think, wow, okay, I understand that character a little differently than I did before. And I think the scriptures are so rich and that's, they're so profound.

And that's one of the reasons that I have a testimony of them is that you can go back to them time and time again at different points in your life or different situations in your life. And situations in your life, and they'll mean something very different to you. I have an old set of scriptures that I had when I was a teenager, and I see the passages that I marked in those scriptures then, and they're good passages. But I see that I passed over passages that now mean everything to me. They just sailed right over my head when I was 17 or 18

or something like that. And now they're just anchors to me. And maybe my 90 year old self will read them and say, wow, how come I didn't notice that? I once heard Elder Packer say, he'd been reading the Book of Mormon, but an issue had been on his mind this time. He said, he came through and he found a passage.

I could testify almost that that verse was not in the Book of Mormon last time I read it. But this time it hit me. And so that's part of my testimony. It's a small part of my testimony. It was there nonetheless that the scriptures are true and the time spent in studying them and not just reading them, but pondering them, and seeking to liken them unto ourselves, is time well spent. There's a treasure trove of wisdom, as well as divine guidance and doctrine and everything else in them. So I bear that testimony in the name of Jesus

Christ, amen. Amen. That was awesome. What a great day, John. We've had with... Hey, man, that was awesome. What a great day, John. We've had with, uh, yeah, I could, I could talk to brother Petersen all day long. I have so much. I don't know if you feel the same, but I could talk. You're so much fun to talk to and joke with and enjoy this stuff. Please come back again.

Thanks for having me. I've really enjoyed it. Dan Peterson is a friend of the follow him podcast. We'll see you again soon. We want to thank all of you for joining us. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sonson and our sponsors, David and Verla Sonson and to our production crew.

Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, David Perry, Kyle Nelson, Will Stoten and Scott Houston. We love you, thank you, and we hope all of you will join us on our next episode of Follow Him.