Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - 2 Corinthians 1-7 Part 1 • Dr. Larry Nelson • Sept 11 - Sept 17

Episode Date: September 6, 2023

How is charity a result of conversion? Dr. Larry Nelson discusses the purpose of trials, the role of Jesus amidst difficulties, and the power of resiliency.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/new-testament-episodes-31-40/Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/follow-him-a-come-follow-me-podcast/id1545433056Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BYPlease rate and review the podcast!00:00 Part 1–Dr. Larry Nelson01:27 Introduction of Dr. Larry Nelson03:10 Paul writes to address admonishment04:52 God is raising children to be like Him08:31 President Oaks and charity12:06 The Savior’s role isn’t only judgment 15:40 Elder Lynn Robbins and to be list19:01 The metaphors of a crucible and driving a car23:05 L. Whitney Clayton teaches about trials25:24 Elder Renlund “Infuriating Unfairness”28:35 The Nature of God32:26 Cause of trials34:46 All things for our benefit37:06 Jesus succors us41:03 The eternal nature of learning44:18 Elder Kearon talks about challenges and the Savior’s role48:57 Resiliency51:21 Chain breakers52:19 Learning is for our benefit55:19 End of Part 1–Dr. Larry NelsonThanks to the followHIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with the incredible John, by the way. Welcome John. Hi, Hank. John, we're going to have a great time today. This second Corinthians is an interesting letter. It seems that Paul starts the church in current, then writes a letter to them, then apparently wrote another letter to them that hurt some feelings. And now he's going to write this new letter, the second Corinthians, to try to reconcile, they want to be reconciled to him. He wants to reconcile to them. He's going to go through some of the doctrines. They're missing some of the important principles. Maybe they're not living. I'm looking forward to this. John, what are you looking forward to? Second Corinthians. Yeah, the same thing is that boy, this is this is so new and it's in a new part of the world where you have Jews that are converted and Greeks and how do you do that when you can't just pick up the phone and this is some of the challenges. I was reading in the

New Testament manual that Institute students have and it says in the second epistle of Paul the Corinthians, we see evidence of a growing rift among some of the Corinthians saints and Paul. A small group of church members in Corinth opposed Paul and wanted him to have less influence among them. I'm like, what? It just sounds pretty foreign to us, doesn't it? Yeah. It's fascinating to me that the people of Corinth are kind of rejecting Paul, yet the entire

branch wouldn't exist without him. fascinating to me that the people of Corinth are kind of rejecting Paul, yet the entire branch wouldn't exist without him. John, we're joined today by a brilliant mind out of BYU. Dr. Larry Nelson is with us. Dr. Nelson Larry, what do we have to look forward to in this come follow me lesson? Thanks for having me. First off, happy to be here. I'm really excited to look at some of the same things that we're facing today, seeing that the Lord through his servant Paul absolutely understands the day-to-day challenges that we face and how we can grapple with those. This is going to be fun.

John, can you introduce our audience to Dr. Nelson? Yes, this is fun to have Dr. Larry Nelson with us today because many of our folks that we've had have been teaching in religious education or in institutes around the country, Dr. Larry Nelson actually teaches in the School of Family Life. He's one of the very few outside of religious education that teaches a religion course in eternal families. So we're thrilled to have him. He was born and raised in Woods Cross. He served his mission in Zurich, Switzerland. I went there

years ago and I thought I will never eat American chocolate again when I got home. Number one lesson learned. Yes. He got his bachelors and masters in family sciences at BYU. Then he went to Maryland where he received a PhD in human development. He told us that his anniversary is coming up for 32 years, married to his wife. Kimberly, he has three kids and two grandsons. He was one of the best 300 professors in the country, according to Princeton Review.

So we're thrilled to have you and to have your perspective on these chapters in Corinthians today. Thank you and welcome. Thanks so much. Larry, I'm going to read a little bit from the Come Follow Me manual here. And then let's see where you want to go. Here's what it says, sometimes being a church leader means having to say some difficult things. I'm sure there's plenty of people who are church leaders listening to. Yeah. Just as it is today, apparently a previous letter from Paul to the Corinthian saints included chasening and caused hurt feelings. In this letter that now becomes second Corinthians, he tries to explain what motivated his harsh words. He said, then a quote, second Corinthians 2 verse 4,

out of much affliction and anguish of heart, I wrote to you with many tears, not that you should be grieved, but that you should know the love which I have more abundantly unto you. The manual goes on, when you're on the receiving end of some correction from a leader, it definitely helps to know that it is inspired by Christ-like love. And I think the manual could have stopped there, but I like what they added. And even in the cases where it is not, so saying that sometimes leaders don't correct with Christ like love. If we're willing to see others with that kind of love that Paul felt, it's easier to respond appropriately to offenses. And then this great quote from Elder Holland, be kind regarding human frailty.

Your own as well as that of those who serve with you in a church led by volunteer mortal men and women, except in the case of his only imperfect begotten son, imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with. And I think he adds something on that John that they've left out of the manual, doesn't he say? That must be incredibly frustrating to him, but he deals with it. And so should we. I think that's what he said.

I bet today, Larry, we have a chance to talk about dealing with some frustration. Where do you want to go with this lesson? How do you want to start? Where do you want to take us? I'd like to start off exactly where the introduction of me did, which is, what I'm not, I'm not a religious ed scholar. I'm not a scholar of Paul and the scriptures. So this could feel very different than maybe previous episodes with other guests. Maybe lay the foundation for what I hope to bring. I hope it will be an interesting perspective for listeners. I'm a developmentalist. What is that? So I teach and study the development of human beings from conception to death. I refer to my human development class as a womb to tomb.

Of course. I tell my students that I believe human development is the most important topic taught at BYU. I know some of my colleagues in other departments may disagree, but I believe that because of what we read in the book of Moses, Moses 139, that God's work in glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of all of his children. In other words, God's work in glory is the development. Yeah, human development. That is the plan of salvation. Our development from spiritual babies into divine adults.

Deity, like our heavenly parents. So I feel blessed to be able to study professionally the part of that process that occurs here in mortality, but I feel blessed as a disciple scholar to have the scriptures and modern prophets and apostles to help me study more of the entire process of growing from spiritual infants to become like heavenly parents. And when we're looking at the plan, we don't refer to it as development. So maybe I'll ease from that language of development into what we're more familiar with,

which is becoming that process of becoming like our heavenly Father. And so that's the second thing I'd like to preface our examination of second Corinthians with if I may and that is understanding becoming. Kins grow up to be cats and puppies grow up to be dogs. Children of heavenly parents as the family, a proclamation of the world states grow up to be like them.

And understanding that is the plan. That's the process is so important. President Oaks has said it this way, the final judgment is not just an examination of a sum total of good and evil acts, what we have done. It's an acknowledgement of the final effects of our acts and thoughts, what we have become.

I just love that. He goes on to say, you'll qualify for your inheritance by learning what I have learned and by living as I have lived. Elder Dita Christoffer, Senna said, exercising agency in a setting that sometimes includes opposition and hardship is what makes life more than a simple, multiple-choice test. God is interested in what we are becoming as a result of our choices. He is not satisfied if our exercise and moral agency is simply a robotic effort at keeping some rules.

Our Savior wants us to become something, not just do some things. This is central to how we examine these chapters in second Corinthians. John, just last week we talked with Dr. Dan Peterson about kind of the same idea about charity, how charity has to govern everything we do in the church. And I think in that talk you reference the challenge to become Elder Oaks talks about charity. Such a great, that's a classic talk. I'm glad you brought it up. This is what he says. We are challenged to move through a process of conversion toward that status and condition called the eternal life. Just what you explained, Larry. This is achieved not just by doing what is right, but by doing it for the right reason for the pure love of Christ.

The Apostle Paul illustrated this and his famous teaching about the importance of charity. The reason charity never fails and the reason charity is greater than even the most significant acts of goodness, he cited is that charity, the pure love of Christ, is not an act, but a condition. It's a state of being. Charity is attained through a succession of acts that result in conversion. Charity is something one becomes. So, I think with what you've said, it seems that Paul is a little bit of a development analyst, right? He wants people to become something, not just do the right things.

Yeah, and that's going to be a theme over and over. Maybe, maybe an analogy for us to think about. I'm sure a present company excluded, but the majority of the time that somebody learns how to sit behind the wheel of a car for the first time, they're not good drivers. Yes, I distinctly remember being terrified actually. Even though you've driven with good drivers, you'd been top bike good drivers. You'd been in car with good drivers, but you only became a good driver by practicing. If you want to become a pianist, you got to practice the piano.

If you want to become a basketball player, you need to practice basketball. Therefore, President Oaks is teaching us to become as God is, we need to do as he does and live as he lives, not just doing it something because we're supposed to. It's important that we do those things, but it's because that is how God lives. And therefore, by doing as he does, we become as he is. God is honest.

So yes, me to be honest, when I do honest things, I become honest. It's this beautiful process of becoming. And so I hope introducing our examination of Paul's epistle here through the lens of becoming. It will maybe be a unique look, provide something that understanding the historical context, or the Latin or the Greek that is fascinating way to stay the scriptures, but not where I'm an expert at, and I hope will also model that there's no one right way to study the scriptures, but it can still be informative.

That's why we invite people like you. The oddball like me. Yeah, because we want a different look. We want a different take, right? John, we're open to learning how to study the scriptures a little bit differently today. Absolutely. And that's one of the beautiful things about the scriptures. We're supposed to read them again and again and again and again because we'll have a new insight or a new approach the next time we come around. So so this is great. Yeah, so please don't feel bad that you don't speak Greek. Neither do John right. Right.

Wonderful. So, maybe through that lens, to show that right off the bat that indeed Paul is helping us understand that, maybe we can look at 2 Corinthians 5 for a moment because some astute student of second Corinthians may look at second Corinthians 5 verse 10 and say, uh, it sounds a little different than how President Oaks just explained it. Can one of you read that for me please? Okay, second Corinthians 5 10, for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that everyone may receive the things done in his body. According to that, he has done whether it be good or bad.

That sounds a lot more like acts being judged rather than what we have become. become, but this is another reminder to us that Paul didn't write an epistle with numbers dividing it up into verses. We can't just take one verse and believe that that is stating that the doctrine being taught. Instead, we need to look at it in context. And indeed, he goes on to basically say, yeah, if it were based on your acts, we're all in trouble, annoying therefore the terror that that would put us in. And then starts to bring the Savior into the role that he plays in this process of helping us become something rather than just being judged for our acts as we get to, verse 17, therefore if any man

be in Christ, he is a new creature. All things are passed away, behold, all things are become new. Through our acts, through doing as God does, living as he lives, we become this new creature. If we go back to 2 Corinthians 3, 3, we see it again and again. He says, for as much as year manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, written not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. Verse 6. If one of you would read that for me. Yeah, I'll read.

This is 2 Corinthians 3, 6, who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament, not of the letter, but of the Spirit, for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveeth life. Over and over again about what our flesh has become, what our hearts become all the way into 18, but we all with open face, beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, what we have become, work and glory, our development are changed into

the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. So once again, it just isn't a sum total of good and evil acts, what we have done, but what we have become through those acts. That's just the foundation, I think, for understanding so many of the things that we can now dig into in second Corinthians. I love that you've done this kind of equated development that word with becoming. And that talk of President Oax just a favorite of mine because it makes so much sense. When we come from a background of, did I check all the boxes? Then we come

up with questions like, well, like I yet, I've checked all these boxes, you know. And but when it becomes a question of becoming, it reminds me of, do you remember Elder Lynn Robbins gave that talk about? We all have to do lists, but what's harder is it to be list? How do I check off? I am now a good husband. You know, or when do you check a child off is done? And that idea of becoming is that lifelong development. So I love that you've made that development kind of this synonym for becoming. Thank you.

And just as we'd never look at a four-year-old and say, why aren't you doing adult things yet? We understand this process. And where that four-year-old and say, why aren't you doing adult things yet? We understand this process and where that four-year-old is. I think we can be more kind, provide more grace to other people and to ourselves in this process of growing up. So right off the bat, I think one of the things that stands out, come follow me, lesson for the week, focuses on trials, tribulations, sufferings, afflictions, Paul outlines the very beginning of his epistle, some of the things that they've been through, that he's been facing. In chapter four, verses 6 through 10. We read a full list of challenges and attributes. I think it's

important. Let's look at some of these. Chapter 4 verses 6 through 10. Yeah, I would love to read these because these are some that I have marked. So, okay, 2 Corinthians 4 6 through 10. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us. We are troubled on every side yet not distressed. We are perplexed but not in despair. Persecuted but not forsaken. Cast down but not

destroyed. Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. Manifest in our body. Manifest in our body, what we have become, and how can we experience those hard things, but then have those wonderful attitudes of how to approach it, or develop the characteristics mentioned here. Then when we study development, when I study and teach development, we talk about risk factors and protective factors. Risk factors are anything that might hinder development. Hinder a child from reaching milestones, from reaching their potential and protective factors, those things that facilitate growth and healthy development.

So I think we should look at us how challenges they can either become risk factors or can actually facilitate growth. I think that's what we're being taught here. To help us think about this, let me introduce a concept or a metaphor that might be helpful. And that's one of a crucible. Crucibles are furnace-like vessels that can endure intense heat and chemical reactions. Crucibles facilitate a process that purges impurities and creates a qualitatively different final product. So thinking about that language of purging impurities and creating a qualitatively different final product through the lens of becoming, especially as described in chapter 5, verse

17, therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. All things are passed away, behold, all things are become new. This process of going from the old to the new, a new creature in Christ. So having a crucible mindset of challenges can help us see the things that we suffer, struggle with, become the process through which those things facilitate our growth or becoming like God. Is it in how we see them? It's the process of going through them and one way is how we see them. Let's stick with the driving a car analogy. I have a goal. I want my child to become a good driver. But for that to happen, I know she's got to get in the car. Step one, I can only teach her so much. She has to get in the car.

But what if I went the next step further and really wanting to teach her, should I call some friends and say, hey, I want you to cut her off in traffic or I want her to I want you to Telegator or you know what? I think I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna slash her tires So when she comes out of school, she'll find a flat tire John Hank, why don't I do those things? I would think she's gonna run into enough problems as it is. Being a driver, I don't need to create more problems for her. Exactly. I don't need to do it. That is part of being in a car.

Yeah. Out on our roads. It's just natural. If I want my daughter to become a good basketball player, that's my goal. I see that long-term perspective of a good basketball player. That's my goal. I see that long-term perspective of becoming a basketball player. Do I contact her coach and ask her to berate and yell and put her down and then bench her? Do I sit on the sidelines as she's trying to make a game-winning free throw and heckler. Do I trip her so she sprains an ankle and has to sit out? Again, silly questions, maybe, but I don't have to do those things because that's all part

of playing basketball. In fact, your role is to cheer her on and probably not take away those difficulties, right? Exactly. And being there for her to come to me when she's going through those things, because it's going to happen. So this is critical that we think about this as we approach the role of God in our trials, think about this as we approach the role of God in our trials. Because a commonly held perception is that God causes our pain and suffering, that he's sitting on high distributing cancerous tumor, mental health challenges, diabetes and infertility,

that he's the one orchestrating your parents divorce or abuse of your child by a relative or forcing somebody to drink and drive just so they'll hit a loved one and cause the trial that they need. But he doesn't have to do any of those things. I'll ask you again, why? They're part of the classroom.

They're part of mortality. He doesn't have to do it. We're taught in general conference by Elwitney Clayton. Life presses all kinds of burns on each of us, some light, but others relentless and heavy. People struggle every day under burns at tax their souls. Many of us struggle under such burdens. They can be emotionally or physically ponderous.

They can be worrisome, oppressive, and exhausting. And they can continue for years. In a general sense, our burns come from three sources. Some burns are the natural product of the conditions of the world in which we live. Illness, physical disability, hurricanes, and earthquakes come from time to time through no fault of our own. We can prepare for these risks and sometimes we can predict them, but in the natural pattern of life, we will all confront some of these challenges.

Other burns are imposed on us by the misconduct of others. Abuse and addictions can make home anything but a heaven on earth for innocent family members. Sin, incorrect traditions, repression and crime, scatterburned victims along the pathways of life. Even less serious misdeeds such as gossip and unkindness can cause others genuine suffering. Our own mistakes and shortcomings produce many of our problems and can place heavy burns on our own shoulders. The most onerous burden we impose upon ourselves is the burden of sin. No matter the burns we face in life as a consequence of natural conditions, the misconduct of others

or in our own mistakes and shortcomings, we are all children of a loving Heavenly Father who sent us to earth as part of his plan for our growth and progress. Our unique individual experiences can help us prepare to return to him, the adversity and afflictions that are ours, however difficult to bear last from heaven's perspective for but a small moment. And then if we endure it, well, God shall exalt us on high. So what was lacking in that list of the sources of our pains and our sorrows and our afflictions? Yeah, there is no God is up there creating this huge problem for me to face.

Yeah. It's not. And the instant classic of Elder Renland's talk in 2021, infuriating unfairness, he too makes it clear. Some unfairness cannot be explained. Inexplicable unfairness is infuriating. And fairness comes from living with bodies that are imperfect, injured, or diseased. More to life is inherently unfair. Some people are born in affluence. Parenting is comes from living with bodies that are imperfect, injured, or diseased. More to life is inherently unfair.

Some people are born in affluence, others are not. Some have loving parents, others do not. Some live many years, others few, and on, and on, and on. Some individuals make injurious mistakes even when they are trying to do good. Some choose not to alleviate unfairness when they could. Distressingly, some individuals use their God-given agency to hurt others when they never should. Different types of unfairness can merge, creating a tsunami of overwhelming unfairness. A candy doesn't point to God as a source of any of this infuriating unfairness.

And I think this is really important. We understand that. It's essential to understanding who God is. Is he the one slashing my tires? Is he the one heckling from the sidelines? He's not. He's there for us. Come to me.

I love you. Let me help you make this better. I was trying to discuss this concept with a loved one. He was just convinced that God causes our pain and suffering. He used the metaphor of a loving parent who has a child who wakes up in the morning with snarls and tangles in her hair, and as a loving parent asked to comb that out, even though it causes pain. And I said, that's great analogy of what the Savior does with us, as we're struggling, but the key is the parent in this metaphor didn't cause... Go and tangle the hair. No.

But help sucker the child's bad head. Help them in that. Didn't cause the tangles. There's so many important reasons to understand that God's not doing this to us, to help us understand his nature, and that why we can come to him instead of, oh, why did you do this? And even the concept of, yeah, but okay, but he allowed it. But just like I as a father see the view of my child becoming a basketball player, I see that with the long view of my child, the need to become a good driver.

He has the perspective of what we can grow up to become. But to do that, he's got to allow some of this, but he doesn't have to cause it. And this seems to be one of those ways that if you understand this, you won't get as angry. What did Nephi say about Laman and Lemuel? John, you'll have this memorized. And they did murmur because they knew not the dealings of that God. Which I created them. And that's a good verse to bring up Hank because I think sometimes we can be quick to say they had a bad attitude or something. Oh no, it was much more fundamental than that. They knew not the dealings of that

God which had created them. And speaking of Nephi, what I've been thinking of as you were talking was, know a style of the condescension of God, the angel asks Nephi and first Nephi what I've been thinking of as you were talking was Knowest how the condescension of God the angel asks Nephi and second first Nephi 11 and Nephi's answers just so good. I know that he loved this children Nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things and if we start with knowing God loves us and and stop going up and down with Well, maybe he does maybe he doesn't, maybe he's given me this trial. If we start that starting point, I know God loves his children, makes the wrestling with the rest of it a little easier.

Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm not going to give that one away. He loves us. He loves us. And it's so important that we understand this. And yet, I'm sure there are listeners to this who are struggling with that concept that for reasons that I understand and I'll dress in just a moment, but I just one more time if make sure it's just remembered. I've

Elder Runland, Elder Clayton, and now Elder elder Holland at a devotional address at BYU in January of 2022. Elder Holland teaches in his farewell address, King Benjamin taught that a fundamental purpose of mortal life. Perhaps the fundamental purpose is to become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord, which will require us to become as a child submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord see it fit to inflict upon him, even as a child thus submit to his Father. And some may instantly say, there's that term and flickick, see, God is doing it. Now, Dr. Holland knew that might be a first thought of some and he says, I think the only commentary needed

for this verse might be regarding the line suggesting God in Flick's trials and burdens upon us. In English, the word in Flick, which comes from the Latin, I can't pronounce it, I told him not a Latin scholar, it has at least two meanings. Thank you. It has at least two meanings. One is to strike or dash against,

and another is to beat down. But those definitions are not applicable to God or his angels. Know the proper definition of the word as King Benjamin used it is to allow something that must be born or suffered. Now allowing something is a different matter. God can and will do that if it is ultimately for our good. I'm going to say it again, God does not now nor will he ever do to you a destructive, malicious, unfair thing ever. It is not in what Peter called the divine nature to even be able to do so. By definition and in fact, God is perfectly and thoroughly always and forever good. And everything He does is for our good.

I promise you that God does not lie awake nights trying to figure out ways to disappoint us, or harm us, or crush our dreams, or our faith. Great statement. Yeah. I have a couple thoughts here, Larry. One, when you said a lot of our trials are created because of our own choices that just made me chuckle a little bit because I have to admit that I face are because of my own poor choices, my own things I do without thinking. It's almost as if I can hear the Lord saying, well, I could give you trials, but you do a great job making your own, you do a good job making your own. The other thought I had was, I think this is why our doctrine of the premortal life is so important because we signed up for this.

That is our doctrine, right? That we wanted this. And if we were born into mortality without that choice, right? If there was no pre-mortal life, and we just were born and created at the moment of our birth, we didn't sign up for this. But agency is an eternal part. So I can almost hear the Lord saying when we're angry, hey, we talked about this, right? That you were gonna face these things. I think that's a supporting doctrine to what we're talking about. But to be kind to ourselves, pre-existence is where we were taught in theory.

I've heard that language. Driver's Ed. A driver's Ed. And just like little kids, you sure you don't wanna wear your coat? No, I'll be good. You sure you. And want to wear your coat? No, I'll be good. And then they're cold. I'm sure we were told, Hey, to become like Emily parents,

you just need to do these things. And we're like, how hard can that be? Right. I just need to control what I eat, control my body. It's appetites. It's it's passions. Yeah. Suffer a little bit. I'm sure and then we get here and we learn about Swiss chocolate and oh okay how good food is and different

things and being in this body. We have to go through it again and truly understand as I wish that we could remember how badly we wanted it as kids. I want to grow up to be like you. And if we could remember that, I think it'll help us when we are grappling with these things. And that's what I believe we're being taught here to make sure we're going. Let's read once again for 15.

Socratesians for 15. For all things are for your six. That the abundant grace might through the Thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. I might have to look up another version of that just to make sure I know what it's down. Yeah. I just use that yesterday. Didn't you, John? Yeah, I knew what a rebound is, but what's a rebound? I don't know. Let me read that verse. I'm going to read it in the NIV. Yeah.

Just to just give everybody another take on it. The NIV says, all this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause things giving to overflow to the glory of God. Little simpler there. It is. We read that for all things are four years' sakes and I think are four years good for your benefit. So it makes it feel like the trial was exactly what we needed to teach us, to help us

become, to help us develop an attribute, a Christian writer in a fictional account put it this way, I just love the language and I couldn't craft it any better. But writing from the perspective of God, just because I work incredible good out of unspeakable tragedies doesn't mean I orchestrate the tragedies. Don't ever assume that my using something means I caused it, or that I needed to accomplish my purposes. That will only lead you to false notions about me. Grace doesn't depend on suffering to exist,

but where there is suffering, you will find grace in many facets and colors. And that's William P. Young who's writing that. But bringing it back to the language of the scriptures would be turning to Alma, chapter 7, verses 11 through 13, where we are taught through 13, where we are taught just exactly what the Savior experienced. We often think about his suffering for our sins, but 11 through 13 makes it very, very clear by what comes first, what he wants us to know when we're in the midst of our challenges. To one of you have Alma. John hasn't

memorized. So Alma, 7, starting in verse 11, and he, the Son of God, shall go forth suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind. And this that the word might be fulfilled, which sayeth, he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people. and he will take upon him death, that he may lose the bands of death which bind his people, and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy according to the flesh, that he may know, according to the flesh, how to sucker his people, according to their infirmities. Now here's verse 13,

now the Spirit knoweth all things, nevertheless the Son of God's Sufferate, according to the flesh, that he may take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance, and now behold this is the testimony which is in me. Those verses are my favorite verses in all of Holy

Rit. Our Savior experienced and gets semini everything that we're going through. Not just our sins though. I'm so grateful for, but our pains, our infirmities, our sufferings and so if there is somebody with us listening to this, asking, does that really mean that he experienced what I'm going through? Yeah, that's exactly how it feels to have you're not generally your anxiety, depression, battle with infertility, broken heart caused by miscarriage and during experience with the needing disorder, struggles with pornography, experience of bullying and disability and on and on, that very personal he can be there with us. And here's the key. If we will allow it because he knows what we're going through,

he knows how to get us through it. The fact that he experienced all that so that he knows me well enough, I need to remember that I need to do as he did, which is after he experienced it, he didn't stay in the garden, he got up and left the garden. And so while I'm going through these same things, I can't just, here's the attitude or the perspective that you mentioned previously, Hank, is I can't just sit there and focus on it. I need to get up and leave the garden. I need to keep moving forward, but knowing he can help turn that experience into something that benefits me, that changes me. We could listen to a thousand general conference talks on patients,

and I could, at a cognitive level, understand patients, but only when we're struggling with something, come to truly become patient. I can hear so many talks and elders quorum lessons on forgiveness, but until somebody who I care about hurts me deeply, do I have the son understand that in order to become as Christ is, I need to do as he does and live as he lives. And by so doing, become forgiving as he is forgiving. These are the things that if we will allow him to suck us through, can turn our challenges into things that are for our sake as Paul's

teaching. Larry, that seems to be what Paul is saying. Here are second Corinthians 4. If we continue down the verses we read, for our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us, a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory. While we look not at the things which are seen, we're looking for the things which are not seen. The things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. It does not seem to fit exactly what you're saying here. Paul is saying these trials, these difficulties, this suffering, is creating in me, or creating

a new creature, as he says then in the next chapter. And the thing is, he's saying, we may find ourselves focused on the thing that we can see, the pain, the struggle, the challenge, the harm done to us. That's what we can see. And too often, that's where our focus ends up. Instead of what we can become because of it. Coming back to development, how often do we as parents as our children growing up, do we keep a growth chart? Do you have a place in your child, in your home, in your child's room, where you date, in the mark,

and you watch them grow? But you didn't do that on a daily basis, because day to day, you wouldn't see it. You wouldn't see the growth. I can't see it. You wouldn't see the growth. I can't see that. I wish that we had a spiritual growth chart to where we could take marks and at the end of that trial, say, wow, look how much you grew. Yeah. Look at the growth. Look at where you become. Those things that we can't see in the moment, just as we can't see the physical growth, moment to moment.

But can we hang on to what the Savior can help us become through our trials? I wish we could see those things. But that's the perspective that the atonement of Jesus Christ provides us. Not to say it's easy when we're going through it, not to say the pain isn't real, or that we should just dismiss it and be happy. It's not that easy. It's real. But we can sit with the pain. We can't stay there. The Savior got up and left the garden, and we need to move forward with Him at our side, because He can sucker us and help us become,

like Him through these very things that we're experiencing. Larry, there's something about the doctrine that the Savior that you mentioned, Aaron Alma 7, that the Savior was willing to suffer as well. I'm not going to send you down to this mortal classroom and suffer so much, I'm going to come with you. Elder Holland said this, salvation never was easy. We're the Church of Jesus Christ. This is the truth. He is our great eternal head. So, therefore, how could we believe it be easiest for us when it

was never, ever easy for him? So, kind of the expectation, if you want to become more like Christ, he suffered. He suffered, and you're going to, you're going to join in that suffering in some way. Part of that is going through the challenges of mortality, elder Patrick Karen said it so well in the challenges we have. In a talk principally focused on abuse but can be applied to all of our challenges and the role to save your place in our lives, he concludes his talk by saying dear friends who have been so terribly wounded and for that matter anyone who has borne the injustices of life, you can have a new beginning and a fresh start.

In Gisemini and on Calvary Jesus took upon himself all of the anguish and suffering ever experienced by you and me, and he has overcome it all. With arms outstretched, the Savior offers the gift of healing to you, with courage, patience, and faithful focus on him before too long, you can come to fully accept this gift. You can let go of your pain and leave it at his feet. Your gentle savior declared, the thief cometh not, but for to steal and to kill and to destroy.

I am come that you might have life and that you might have it more abundantly. You are a survivor, you can heal, and you can trust that with a power on grace of Jesus Christ, you will overcome and conquer. Jesus specializes in the seemingly impossible. He came here to make the impossible possible, the irredeemable, redeemable, to heal the unhealable, to write the unrightable, to promise the unpromissable, and he's really good at it. In fact, he's perfect at it. He can turn everything

out, unimaginably painful and hard into something for our sake and our benefit, meaning for our becoming like Him. I love that. You use the word sucker a couple of times, and that's what Alma uses in those verses. He says, according to the flesh, twice, he's reminding us, he's going to be here. Does Elder Holland reminded us? It's the wounded Christ who comes to us, letting us know that even the pure and the perfect might suffer wounds in the house of their friends." He said, wow, what a statement. But I looked

up and you see Sucker, S-U-C-C-O-R. When I was a kid and I heard Sucker, I thought, you know, that's a lollipop. That's what mom gets at the drive-through at the bank. But in Webster's 1828 dictionary, which is all online, you can look up Sucker and it makes Alma 7, 11, and 12 even more beautiful when it says that Sucker means literally to run to, to come to aid in time of need. And when you read that, that he may know how to Sucker his people, that he may know how to sucker his people, that he may know how to run to his people

in their time of need because he's been here. Makes that so powerful. And one other thing, I just found myself writing next to verse 15, all things are for your sakes. I was like, we just talked about this somewhere, but it was Romans 828, a couple of weeks ago, that says, all things work together

for good to them, the love God, to them who are called according to his purpose. So as you said, some problems are caused by a natural product to being in the world, some are imposed by the misconduct of others, but God can use that for our good, as you so beautifully said. Larry, I like what you're saying here. And I think Paul is kind of showing us as an example of, he's got this perspective, which makes him able to talk this way about his own suffering back in chapter four. We are troubled on every side yet we're not distressed.

We are perplexed but not in despair I read that in the new living translation. He says we are pressed on every side by troubles But we are not crushed. We are perplexed but not driven to despair. We're hunted down But never abandoned by God. We get knocked down, but we are not destroyed Through suffering our bodies continue to share in the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also be seen in our bodies. So it seems that Paul understands this perspective and is able to at least see his trials in a way that will make them bearable and even he sees them in a way of even opportunity. You mentioned that trials can be crucibles in your research and your experience in this field.

What are the keys that help human beings use trials as crucibles for good to create growth like you said? So we talk about resiliency a lot in the study of flourishing individuals who flourish who overcome so much in language that may sound more familiar to many, it involves acting rather than being acted upon. Looking for growth, those children who are resilient, they don't do it on their own. They look for and Accept the help of mentors So I study the transition to adulthood as one of my areas of specialty and we know those who have come from difficult backgrounds and who change

the the course of the the course of their lineage through their choices, we know that they tend to do things like they set their mind to it. They are intentional about wanting to change. They start to distance themselves from those who may try to prevent change. And that's interesting that we could spend some time there come follow me talks about who we surround ourselves with individuals distance themselves from those who May try to prevent change They seek an education So light and truth ways that will help them so for example if they come from will help them. So for example, if they come from homes with abuse and poor parenting, they seek out parenting skills. So there's pursuit of education of light and truth. They surround themselves with

support groups. We can look at the power of that. Of course, awards and congregations would fit the description here surrounding yourself with those who can build you up and strengthen you and and help reading good books on the topic. So their intentional acts to grow and to change and become who it is they want to become so they can change the lineage of their families as well as their own development for good. You're the change agent, right? Yeah, I don't want to say evil traditions, but the weaknesses of your forebears that have been passed down they stop with you. I've heard it called a chain breaker. Dr. Karl Friedbrotterick in one of his books talks about giving a woman a blessing who could not understand why as a child she had to go through this and in that blessing, Dr. Brotterick was inspired to tell her that she was sent to break that chain for her future posterity. So instead of feeling like God doesn't love me, it completely changed

that God loved her so much and trusted her to go and change that in that family, this kind of family, what did you call it, Hank? He's kind of bad habits or horrible sins that have been kind of been generational, and she was sent there to be a chain-breakers, another way I've heard it, to stop that from continuing. Just an amazing idea. I tell my students on the last day of class every semester that they've now put in a semester's worth of work through their efforts to be in class, to read, to learn the material.

They've done all that, and now what will they do with it? I tell them very clearly that I truly hope that something we covered in class benefits them, benefits their development, benefits their lives, and that I hope in the process of going through the semester with them, they felt my love for them and what I hope they can become. But I tell them very honestly that while I love them, I actually teach the class for their children, hoping that they, now everything they've done,

they will implement it, they will become the types of parents and teachers and leaders and members of their communities who will benefit the next generation. And if every single one of us were to improve upon, we don't even have to go to the real weaknesses that are great. If every single one of us could remove one of the impurities in our family's line, each one of us, every generation, will improve until I think we'll have one ready to meet the savior of his second

coming. That's awesome. What a great idea. Larry, this discussion has been fantastic. I think we could probably talk about trials and difficulties and pains for the rest of eternity, right? And trying to grasp why. But I hope people are feeling some of the healing that comes from just what you've taught us, from understanding hope people are feeling some of the healing that comes from just what you've taught us, from understanding, and then maybe some energy to do the things you've said. Go up and take on these trials and difficulties, act instead of being acted upon. Please join us for part two of this podcast.

podcast.