Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - 2 Corinthians 1-7 Part 2 • Dr. Larry Nelson • Sept 11 - Sept 17

Episode Date: September 6, 2023

Dr. Larry Nelson continues to examine Paul’s letter to the Corinthians and explores the themes of forgiveness, unity, and charity.Please rate and review the podcast which makes it easier to find.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/new-testament-episodes-31-40/YouTube: https://youtu.be/R1eqqsj-iekFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BY00:00 Part II–Dr. Larry Nelson00:54 The analogy of a car race02:15 2 Cor 5-1104:23 Forgiveness08:14 Elder Holland’s on reconciliation09:07 Dr. Miller on forgiveness within marriage11:15 Admonition and repentance14:53 Hope in repentance17:08  Jesus can make all trials for our benefit19:49 Research about forgiveness and repentance21:07 All truth is compatible25:01 Becoming Christlike and creating Zion28:36 Jesus, poverty, and responsibility of the Saints34:21 Helping the poor37:12  Service and personal growth40:22 Practical advice for charity44:53 CS Lewis and temptation regarding neighbors48:47 Dr. Nelson’s takeaways55:08 End of Part II–Dr. Larry NelsonThanks to the follow HIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to part two of Dr. Larry Nelson, second Corinthians chapters 1 through 7. What do you want to do next here with Paul's letter to the Corinthians? Since we've really talked about the sources of our afflictions, of our trials, of our pains, of our sufferings as being the conditions of mortality, our own bad choices, and the bad choices of others that affect us, I think we ought to look at some of the verses that where Impal teaches us, okay, part of acting rather than being acted upon and how you can be made free from the effects of these choices, your own or others. And that's maybe talk a little bit about the versus the deal with forgiveness and repentance.

And I'd like to maybe introduce these by having us think about the analogy of being in a car race. Think of NASCAR, some other car race, and you're in your car revving your engine, and they wave the flag to go, how well is the race going to go if you're constantly looking in your rearview mirror? Trying to race forward, but looking in your rearview mirror. Well, when we're thinking about development, this process of becoming progressing, moving towards the divine destiny that each of us has to become like Emily parents, we can't do that if our view is always backwards. If some of our challenges come from the bad choices of others that impact

us, we have the beauty of forgiveness, which is simply put, we stop looking in our review mirror of what was done to us and we start looking forward. If some of our challenges come from our own bad choices, then simply simply put repentance is this process where when we stop looking in our rearview mirror and we start moving forward And so maybe in turn we could discuss these two important processes in becoming like God If we go to 2 Corinthians 2 Starting in verse 5 and read 5 through 11.

Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many, so that contrary wise, he ought rather to forgive him and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with over much sorrow. Wherefore, I beseech you that you would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write that I might know the proof of you, where the yebe obedient and all things. To whom ye forgive anything, I forgive also, for if I forgive anything, to whom I forgave

it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ Less Satan should get an advantage of us for we are not ignorant of his devices John, I think it'd be good to read that passage again But I'm going to read it out of the NIV if that's okay start in second Corinthians 2 verse 5 If anyone has caused grief He has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent, not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. So I think he's saying everyone was upset with him and man, whoever this person was that caused so much pain, the punishment inflicted on him by the group was sufficient.

He said, now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you therefore to reaffirm your love for him. Another reason I wrote to you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. Anyone you forgive, I also forgive, and what I have forgiven, if there was anything to forgive, I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake.

In order that Satan might not outwit us, for we are not unaware of his schemes. Again, the NIV can just help us a little bit more than the KJV sometimes in just understanding what Paul's saying so we can get the principles out of it. We got to know what he's saying. And especially if we do so through the lens we've talked about of becoming in particular the notion that in order to become as he is, we need to do as he does and live as he lives. And if I want to become like our Heavenly Father, like Jesus Christ,

I need to do as they do and live as they live. And daily they forgive. do and live as they live, and daily they forgive. I have to engage in this same process that they engage in daily with me. I have to forgive. So that's one of the things I think this lens of becoming helps us understand what forgiving can do for us. It changes us from a forgiveness as something I'm supposed to do is that by doing it, I become forgiving as God is forgiving. It's that becoming. And in the process of forgiving, it frees us. This isn't about the other person. I think these verses, especially in the translation that you read, Hank helps us see, it's really not about him. It's about you. It's about each of us. I love this quote. I found it on

the campus well being website years ago, but it says, when we withhold forgiveness, we withhold the possibility of healing and hope for our own future. We're looking in the rear view mirror if we withhold forgiveness. We allow the bonds of resentment to imprison us underneath our offender's control and power. Forgiveness is not excusing harmful behavior nor dissolving another person's responsibility for wrongdoing.

It is not minimizing the pain caused or quietening injustice. It is simply a decision and a process of letting go of resentment and thoughts of revenge. Forgiveness removes us from the grip of others. For something as beautiful and unique as a human being should not be formed by error or wrongdoing. It is freedom from our prison and liberation into our Eden. I remember present, Hinckley giving the analogy of a monkey trap, good old fashioned monkey trap where I take a box or something else and put a hole in the box with fruit inside the box. And the hole was just enough to get the monkey, the monkey could put its hand through the hole.

But once it grabbed a hole of the apple or banana, the hole is now not big enough to get out. So the only way to do this is to let go. That's all they've got to do to be free. But instead, they won't let go and so the hunters can come and that's their life. And if we're watching the monkey in this, I don't think there's a one of us that wouldn't be yelling, drop the banana.

Just let go of the apple, pull your hand free and live. And I can just see the same from the other side of the veil being proclaimed, drop whatever the badana is in your life. Drop it and let it go. Be free. It's not about the person who did this to you. It's about making it so they no longer have control because you're no longer looking in the rearview mirror, held captive to what was done to you. And once again, turning around and developing, becoming and doing that in the same way that Christ lives, which is forgiving. As we forgive, we are doing as He does,

living as He lives, and that's how we become like Him. So I think forgiveness is something so powerful that we've been taught here. And in this week's Come Follow Me, one of the talks that we're directed to is Elder Hall in the Ministry of Reconciliation and just one paragraph captures exactly what you said, John, in such an invitation to be his disciple and try to do as he did, Jesus is asking us to

be instruments of his grace, to be ambassadors for Christ in the Ministry of Reconciliation, as Paul described it to the Corinthians, the healer of every wound, he who writes every wrong asks us to labor with him in the daunting task of peacemaking in a world that won't find it any other way. Joining with him, as we do, is he does to change the world by being ambassadors for Christ. Dr. Rick Miller, his school of family life, gave a devotional on campus on forgiving with a specific

view of forgiving within marriages and gave several just overwhelmingly sad examples of a spouse who could not let go of the metaphorical banana or apple in their marriage and it ended it. So just as forgiveness then is one of the ways that we act rather than being acted upon by one of those sources of our pain for forgiveness it was when others, the bad choices of others that affect us, Repentance is the way we become free of the pain caused by our own bad choices. We have access to Paul's reiterating this or teaching this in chapter 7 verses 8 through 11. Second Corinthians chapter 7 verses 8 through 11. For though I made you sorry with the letter, I do not repent, though I did repent, for

I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that you sorrowed to repentance, for you were made sorry after a godly manner, that you might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow, worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of, but the sorrow of the world, worketh death. For behold, this self-same thing that you sawed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in Yeh, what clearing of yourselves? Yeh, what indignation? Yeh, what fear? Yeh, what vehement desire?

Yeh, what zeal? Yeh, what revenge? In all things, you have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter. Yeah, I think I know what he's saying there, but no, no, I turn to Hank. Yeah, I think this could be a good practice. I think we're learning to study the scriptures and sometimes turning to other translations to help us understand.

So this is the new living translation. I'll use a different one this time. John, you started in verse 8. Paul says, in the new living translation, I am not sorry that I sent you that severe letter. Though I was sorry at first, for I know it was painful to you for a little while. Now, I am glad that I sent you that severe letter. Though I was sorry at first, for I know it was painful to you for a little while. Now I am glad that I sent it, not because it hurt you, but because the pain caused you

to repent and change your ways. It was the kind of sorrow God wants His people to have, so you were not harmed by us in any way. For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There's no regret for that kind of sorrow, but worldly sorrow which lacks repentance results in spiritual death. Just see what this godly sorrow produced in you, such earnestness, such concern to clear yourself, such indignation, such alarm, such longing to see me, such zeal,

and such a readiness to punish wrong, you showed that you have done everything necessary to make things right. He felt bad that the letter was going to sting, but in the end, he says, you know what, it was a good thing because you really showed that you want to repent in a big way. You're going to do everything you can to repent. For me, that verse 11 is, look at what repentance cleared from you. Clear took away all the indignation that you had, this anger, this fear, this wanting of revenge, and it unburdened you off all those negative things. And that's powerful. We've been taught so often by President Nelson that

repentance isn't a punishment or something bad, but simply put it's about getting back on the path. So using the analogy I've been using of looking forward versus your rear view mirror, if we hope to become like him, we have to be doing as he does and living as he lives. And If we hope to become like him, we have to be doing as he does and living as he lives. And sin is when we are no longer doing that. It's a very simple definition. When we're no longer doing as God does and living as he lives, we're now sinning. And repentance is the act of getting back on the path of becoming. It's amazing to me how many languages I've learned

over the years that the direct translation of repentance in that language to English is turnaround. Having served a German-speaking mission, I know that it It turned around. Quit looking backwards at the mistakes, quit living or walking on a different path, walking backwards from God, turn around back on the path of becoming

that'll help you reach your divine potential. Again, just like forgiveness, it's easier explaining than and said and harder done, but doesn't need to be. Just turn around, turn around, let it go. Let all the zeal, the fear, the indignation, the desire for revenge, the guilt, the shame, turn around, start leaving us, he lives, doing as he does once again, and you'll become like him.

So this time it's kind of like a monkey trap that you've talked about, but I'm not holding onto my grievances, like I am when you say, let go and forgive. This I'm hanging onto my sins. I don't wanna let them go. For some reason or another, I don't wanna let them go, and you're saying,

just let them go, let them go. give them up. Turn around. Turn around. Start becoming, start moving forward again. I think it was elder Jeffrey Arholin too said repent is the perhaps the most hopeful and encouraging word in the Christian vocabulary. And another real gem in the Bible dictionary says, and sometimes I've used this in class, I've put repentant, big red letters with an exclamation point, you know, what word came to your mind. And then we look up the Bible dictionary, which says, a fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world. That's in the definition of repentance. It's a whole new way of looking at things. My students sometimes they hear sin, punishment, coercion,

that I'm angry, but the Bible dictionary says it's a whole new way of looking at the world, which is beautiful. Now, we had a guest saying, look at those four principles of the gospel. Faith, repentance, baptism, the gift holy ghost. Do you remember this? They said, we celebrate those other three. When someone has a testimony and pronounces their testimony that they have faith, we're cheering them on. When someone gets baptized, we all show up, right? We want to see it. When someone gets the gift of the Holy Ghost, we're right there. We're so excited. We shake their hand, but then someone repents, We're like, Oh, what'd you do? Oh, that's such a sad thing. And it was just kind of an interesting thought to

me. I thought, Oh, maybe we should be a little bit more excited about this opportunity. And scared of it or ashamed of it. Was that the episode where we heard the phrase repent relentlessly? Is that the one? Because I've never forgotten that phrase that not a one-time thing, it's a daily thing and keep making course corrections on the covenant path if we need to. And like you said, John, you made sure it was clear, as we were talking about forgiveness. We're not alone in this. We're not walking on our own down towards the Bishop's office or whatever we may view repentance as because our Savior suffered in Gethsemane.

We've made it clear. He did that for our infirmities, our pains, our sorrows, but we can't forget verse 13 and Alma 7 which, and for our sins, so that he can walk that path with us too. He's there. So all these things that we've learned from these chapters and from modern day prophets and apostles that our pains, our sorrows and our afflictions are from our own bad choices,

the bad choices of others and the condition of mortality. And all of those can be for our good because of our Savior, Jesus Christ, who's been through it all. So he can help us grow from these experiences so he can help us let go of the injustices done to us and move forward. And so he can help us as we turn around our lives. He's there, we're never alone in any of these things that bring us sorrow and tribulation.

And like Elder Kiran said, and he's really good at it. I love that part. In fact, he's perfect at it. Yeah. I think we brought this up many times before, John, but I'll bring it up again. Our friend, Brad Wilcox, his bioadivotional, his grace is sufficient. He says, Christ's arrangement with us is similar to a mom providing music lessons for her child.

Mom pays the piano teacher. How many know what I'm talking about? Because mom pays the debt in full. She can turn to her child and ask for something. What is it? Practice. Does the child's practice pay the piano teacher? No. Does the child's practice repay mom for paying the piano teacher? No. Practicing is how the child shows appreciation for mom's incredible gift. It is how he takes advantage of the amazing opportunity mom is giving him to live his

life at a higher level. Mom's joy is not found in getting repaid, but in seeing her gift used, seeing her child improve. And so she continues to call for practice, practice, practice. Then he quotes Elder Haifin. And Elder Haifin here sounds a lot like Dr. Nelson. Sounds a lot like you, Larry. He says, the great mediator asks for our repentance,

not because we must repay him in exchange for his paying our debt to justice, but because repentance initiates a developmental process that with the Savior's help leads us along the path to a saintly character. I thought you might like that. I do. And a one eternal round in all this is

thank you Brad and Elder Haven because there's a reason that I chose as an analogy for this. If you want to become a pianist, you practice the piano. The wonderful teachings of both those man have helped me see through the lens of becoming in development. So yeah, intentional nods to them. Larry, since we have your expertise here, let's ask a couple more questions about this. What have you seen in the research for both forgiveness and repentance? So there's been a movement now for a while to understand what we call it positive psychology. So long scholars would look at maladaptive development, we call it psychopathologies, challenges to healthy development.

But there's been a real push to look at what are the factors that can lead to well-being, healthy relationships. Sounds like instead of what's wrong, focusing on what's wrong, but also focusing on what's right. Yes, because I state this frequently in any setting I'm in that this would benefit, and that's the absence of negative doesn't mean the presence of positive. And so, sure, we want to ameliorate the negative in our lives, the risk factors in development.

But at the same time, we need to be implementing or facilitating or fostering positive, healthy protective factors, things that facilitate healthy development. And that movement has helped us see. So, here's in a world of science, and I love when this happens, I quote all the time, President Nelson, who at the dedication of the life science is building on campus, said, all truth is

compatible, whether from a scientific laboratory or by revelation, it is the same. It only appears to be incompatible if there's a misunderstanding of one or the other or both. And so for me, truth is truth. And indeed, we see it in the work that has been done examining positive psychology, the factors that are present that lead to all of the outcomes we want, again, becoming healthy adults, emotionally healthy, physically healthy, being able to maintain healthy relationships.

Those are some of the very things that have been found, gratitude, forgiveness. Repentance may not be the word, but we see things such as accepting responsibility for the consequences of your actions. These are all volunteer activities, service to others, helping behaviors. So yeah, we see it over and over again, that healthy development isn't just the absence of negative things, but the presence of positive, healthy things that lead to that healthy, developmental outcomes, becoming. I like that a lot.

When I try to teach the parable of the sower or the four kinds of soils, I always talk about clearing the weeds, but if you just clear the weeds, that's only part of it, that you've got to put good things in there and that one of the things I learned from my own garden, if you want good things in your garden or in your life, you have to put them there, just clearing the weeds isn't enough, but you want the good stuff. Intentionally, you got to put it there. I wish it were the other way where tomatoes, cucumbers, we just float in out of the sky like dandelions, but they don't. You have to put them there if you want them, and then you got to take care of them, and nourish them and everything if you want to enjoy them one day. So I like that intentional idea.

Absolutely. Isn't it Paul himself who, when the article of faith 13, that Joseph Smith quotes, Philippi, if there be anything virtuous, lovely, of good report or praise worthy, we seek after these things. We just don't want them. We're seeking after these good things. That's what the article of faith says,

but Paul actually says, think on these things. And I like both of those perspectives. What are you letting to quote King Benjamin or to quote Mormon to his son, Maroni, let this rest in your mind. Let not the things which I've written, Greed, thee to wait, he down, but let Christ and his sufferings and showing his body to our fathers, let that rest in your mind. And I think that's like Paul, think on these things. What are you focusing on? Change your thoughts and watch it. Change your behaviors.

Change your behaviors. Watch it. Change your thoughts as this beautiful connection between our thoughts and actions. I like them both. I like seek after these things, which is active, which is action, which is intentional. I also like think on these things. Because if you're not thinking those things, what are you thinking about it? The social media will give us plenty in the news media to think about, but if we let

that rest in our minds, what's the fruit of that? It's not good. What's President Nelson's recent comment that the joy we experience is not so much the circumstances of our lives, but the focus of our lives is focusing on Christ. Larry, so far you've taught us about trials, repentance and forgiveness. I think these are pretty useful principles. I'm very practical. Very practical.

But feeling I'm going, I can use these things. What else be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical.

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I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going to be very practical. I'm going Christ does. I live as Christ lives. Then I have to peek a little bit into next weeks. Come follow me. I just have to look a little bit into Paul's teaching them about the importance of caring for those who are poor and in need. Because once again, that is the life of the Savior, caring for each of us, because we are all poor and we are all in need. Maybe just a little bit, if I could, have

us think about caring for those who are poor and those who are in need through the lens of why we need it in our development, in our becoming process. Because caring for those who are poor is of temporal importance to them, but it's of spiritual importance for us. Because sadly, once again, often our discussions come back to a checklist sounding approach of, I've given a dollar to a beggar. Woohoo! You know, let me in God, check that off the list of doing a good act. Whereas we need to see that it's our continual efforts to rid poverty from amongst us, that is how we will become like the Savior. Indeed, we read that,

that's Zion. Zion is a place where there will be no poor amongst us and where the pure and heart will live. So I think it's in how we care for those who are poor and in need that prepares the hearts of those who will live there. John, this is very reminiscent of our Dr. and Covenant year where I remember something being flipped in my mind, which was, I came into that year thinking, I can't wait until the Savior comes because then we'll have Zion. And what we really taught that year was, have Zion, build Zion. So that.

And then the Savior will come. And so what Larry's telling us here is, you know, we don't wait for Jesus to come to get rid of poverty. That's our role. Absolutely. And too often, well, in fact, we need to stop each of us, and anybody who may be listening to this. And just for a moment,

in just these few moments of starting to talk about caring for the poor and those in need, have any of us started to have thoughts like, yeah, well, but they, well, if only they had. Or, yeah, but I've worked so and fill in, here, we got to go back, we got to go back. And does Christ do that? I was thinking about this and I searched, but I'd love some help. Is there any place in the scriptures that you can think of where the Savior ever chastised the poor for being in the condition that they were in?

I can't think of anything. Yeah. In the book of Mormon, he cautioned those who are learned and he gave a caution, if I remember correctly, to those who may be poor, but not once. Can I ever think of him chastising them?

And yet, how often do we start to judge? Well, they're lazy or if they had only worked hard or this is what they would do with the money. There are no caveats. There's nothing. If we just start to go through, I can so many scriptures, whether it's in the Old Testament, the New Testament, who so mocked the poor,

reproacheth his maker, and Matthew, the young man's saith unto them, all things, these things, have I kept from my youth up, what lack I yet go and sell. But woe unto the rich who are riches to the things of the world. That's in the Book of Mormon. Alma for ye, he saw great inequality among the people, some lifting themselves up with their pride, despising others, turning their backs upon the needy and the naked and those who were hungry.

It just goes on and on. Doctrine and covenants, therefore, if any man shall take of the abundance, which I have made, and impart not his portion according to the law of my gospel unto the poor and the needy, he shall with the wicked lift up his eyes and help being entorned. They aren't even subtle They aren't even subtle teachings. It's care for those who are poor and in need because that's how you become like me. They are my children and if you wanna become like me, you're gonna do as I do and live as I live.

And I need help the things that are needed. The wonderful discourse from King Benjamin, over and over and over talking about the beggar, he's reminding us, we were the beggars, we are the beggars, we're coming to Christ saying, I can't do it without your toning blood. I have nothing, please give me. And he freely gives. He doesn't say, well Larry, you

brought it on yourself. Even though I did, he doesn't withhold because of that. He doesn't say, well if I give you, you're just gonna go and squander it. You're just gonna go and sin again. So why should I? He gives. He doesn't say, you know what? I did to earn this and you want me to give it to you, but he doesn't do that. Over and over, he gives to us in a way that is free and loving. And he says, so if you want to become like me, you've got to do the same. But then after being given so freely by him, when we don't deserve it, when it comes

to giving of what we have, we now start putting all these markers. And again, in doing as he does to become as he is, we don't have the grace that he has to give. So he simply says, take of that which you do have and freely give it to those who don't. It's the only way you will become like me. It's the only way your hearts will become prepared to live in that place where there will be no poor amongst us. And it's a family issue.

Again, for a people who have been taught that we are to share and defend those things that will protect the family, we have to understand that poverty is a family issue. It is not a political issue. It's a family issue. Study after study after study shows that when a family experiences an economic hardship and President Nelson in a recent address, referred to statistics that show that one in nine people

on this planet are malnourished and angry. When individuals experienced economic hardship, they feel pressure, that inability to pay a bill, the financial cutbacks, and that pressure leads to interpersonal problems in a marriage. Behavior problems, emotional problems, fighting, withdrawing and distancing from each other, and that slowly roads the relationship and affects the marriage. And then studies continue with that.

And as the marital relationship suffers, then children suffer because of the discord in the home and because when parents are under that type of stress, they're parenting diminishes. And as their parenting diminishes, more risk factors for children, so children suffer. Poverty, fighting, poverty is defending the family. These are family factors. Fighting poverty is a way in which we defend the family because when we're experiencing poverty, economic hardships, it affects the marriage negatively, and thereby also affects children negatively. So fighting poverty is defending the family.

So whether in our becoming process or in our mortal existence here, in our development, it's needed. I think that's why Joseph Smith said so clearly, to be a member in good standing in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, one is to feed the hungry, to be a member in good standing in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, one is to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church or in any other or in no church at all, wherever he finds them. Larry, let me ask you something.

I think some of our listeners might be thinking, I want to do this. I want to help. And maybe this isn't about so much as handing a couple of dollars to a panhandler as much as this supporting programs that are increasing education and making it so someone can get themselves also out of poverty. Have you seen that in the country? Is that something that's happening in the research that there are programs that people can give their treasure to and even their time and their energy? Yeah, so much of the research shows that when we provide opportunities to get education, I'm cautious here because the moment that we start talking about programs, policies, all of a sudden in the political climate of our day,

defenses go up, political stances, all these potential political triggers, and so sadly the adversary has done a fabulous job of turning these things into political issues and blindness towards the fact that they are becoming issues, their family issues, education enables individuals to become, to provide, to protect. to become, to provide, to protect. I may be I'm a little biased, but I think the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a lot of programs that people can give their time and treasure to alleviate poverty,

from the humanitarian aid to the perpetual education fund to be where you pathways. I mean, there just seems to be very effective programs. Hank, and so please, I need to hear this. Agreed, agreed, agreed, agreed. Pause, don't edit the pause, please. The pause is important. Period. Exclamation mark, yes.

We have to be careful, though, that in our own lives, we don't place the burden of doing these incredible works on somebody else. So in other words, yes, the church is doing so many of these great things. The church is, but if we're doing this about us, the question is, are we? So let's and to underscore that and just make sure how this is tied to these readings, can we please turn to make sure how this is tied to these readings. Can we please turn to second Corinthians eight, seven? I think one verse will help us here. As we're turning there, it reminds me of something, Dan Peterson told us, John, do you remember when he said a guy in his elder's quorum, they were signing up for the meat packing plant and he said, I'll just hire that out, right? He just said, I could hire someone and

it would it would cost me less than my time to go there. And dad kind of laughed and said, I think you're missing. I think you're missing the point. Right. It's not about. It's not just about the packing plant. It's about what happens inside of us. It's our becoming. And so from the start of eight, Paul's talking about, hey, there's a need in another congregation. There's a need here. And you need to care for them. You need to give to them, starting so we'll do two verses in verse seven.

Therefore, as you abound in everything, in faith and utterance and knowledge and in all diligence and in your love to us, see the you bound in this grace also. I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others and to prove the sincerity of your love. So you've gone to several translations. Can we go to the Larry Nelson translation for just a moment?

Could you do the whole Bible? Larry, we want to buy that. No, I need these two verses for me. And so my translation is Larry, you may have bound in a lot of good things. You may be attending church and you may be accepting callings and your faith and your testimony, that's great. And in utterance and your knowledge, the things that you've learned and in all diligence. But I need you to give to those who are poor and in need, because it is that through which the sincerity of your love for me, the Savior will be determined and to prove the sincerity of your love. All those things are great, but see that you're bound in this grace, that you care for those who are poor and in need. And through that is how you will prove the sincerity of your heart.

They'll prove that you have become like me because I love all of my children. So do as I do and live as I live. That's how we will be proved. And so yes, I agree with all that. And I'm so grateful to know that my fast offerings, my fast offerings and my tithes are going to an organization that's the church. And again, President Nelson has just given an address

that has outlined so many of the good works of the church. Am I involved? Yeah. Am I involved daily with those who are around me in alleviating the challenges of their circumstances, without which I have to give just as when I was in need, the Savior gave so abundantly and give so abundantly to me. Yeah, Larry, that leads me to a question here. I like to give our listeners some practical things to do.

So what do I do? What do I do? Because it's easy for me to fill out my tithing slip and give more, which I think is a good thing, right? To give more, to give more and fast offerings, to give more in perpetual education, missionary, humanitarian aid, give more. But what else can I do when you say those around me? So I'm just looking for those who are struggling and finding ways to get them out of that situation? So, bless, when we look around us to see the incredible individuals in our neighborhoods,

our communities, our wards, and learn from those who are following the charge. I know of somebody who the neighbor girl would come over to pick up my friend's daughter to walk to school. And she noticed that this neighbor girl started to come earlier and earlier to pick up her daughter for school. And she realizes because my friend was inviting her for breakfast before they'd leave. And she realized she wasn't getting breakfast. She was going to school hungry. There's one thing. She provided breakfast every day for a little girl that would have sat in her desk listening to her stomach growl instead of paying attention to the teacher.

I feel terrible to know that my back yard neighbor and elderly widow went months with severe tooth pain because on her fixed income, she was enabled to go in and have anything done. And I didn't know. And I didn't alleviate that because when I could have. And if I had known what I've proven my love and talent, it's, there's big things that we can be involved in, but there are individuals in our midst who these type of acts can help alleviate the mortal condition of hunger of need for shelter, clothing protection that we can strive to help God's children with that which we have by giving. This is a great discussion. And one of the ways I think when we're trying to say, okay, this is awesome, what do I do?

One of the ways is go to your bishop. He may have a visibility. The story about a woman with a toothache, is that's heartbreaking, because so many of us would, who have had toothaches, would really want to help if we only knew sometimes a bishop knows and you know things like just serve.com now, right? Yeah, to say think of all of those things that come to your

mind. If the savior were to use those same things as reasons not to give you. You wouldn't get his atonia. Sacrifice. So, if you don't want him to use those mindsets and perspectives and judgments towards you, change. Become more like him. Yes, I use the example of the beggar. He's saying, but I do that to try to get you to think, what is your overall attitude about joining with the Savior in his efforts to care for those who are poor and in need? So when we get away from that scenario that we often reduce these discussions to and see,

it's about my willingness to become like the Savior by doing as He does and living as He lives, then I am going to try to make this mortal situation better for all those around me. And as I do that, I am changed. I am changed. Trying to get away from that reduction to that simple situation, I think will help us see what Paul is teaching us that it's your overall approach to caring for those who are pouring in need is how you will prove the sincerity of your love. We don't prove that by giving a dollar and thinking we're good. It's our daily overall approach and awareness of all those around us who may stand in need of something that we can offer. There's a great book by CS Lewis John.

I know you've read it and Larry, you may have read it as well. It's called The Screwtap Letters, where CS Lewis writes from the perspective of a tempting devil who is teaching his apprentice devil how to really get to a human being and keep them away from God. It's a fascinating idea, but this is one of the quotes from that book. And this is again a higher level devil speaking to an apprentice devil. And he says, the great thing is to direct the malice of the person he's trying to tempt, to his immediate neighbors whom he meets every day, and to thrust his benevolence out to the

remote circumference to people he does not know. The malice then becomes real, and the benevolence largely imaginary. I think what C.S. Lewis is saying here is something you're telling us Larry is, look around you, don't think, okay, I can donate to this program and it's gonna help some person far away from me look at the woman who's next door look at the widow who's next door the hungry child that lives down the street. It removes our accountability which again it is if we go back all the quotes, I just encourage anybody to look up poor and then go in the topical guide and the savior is very direct. It's our responsibility.

And when we write a check and send it off and think that removes our accountability and responsibility to care for those in our immediate surroundings. We've missed it. Elder Runlon says, how we deal with advantages and disadvantages is part of life's test. We will be judged not so much by what we say, but by how we treat the vulnerable and disadvantaged. As Latter-day Saints, we seek to follow the Savior's example to go about doing good. We demonstrate our love for our neighbor by working to ensure the dignity of all Heavenly Father's children.

Sounds like Paul. Very much. The sincerity of our love will be proven by how we care for God's children. I think maybe just that part of not reducing anything to that simple practice. What's the principle we're discussing, which is do as Christ does? It's not the practice of giving to a beggar, and you alluded to it. We throw out these phrases like, as better as a him and to fish than give him a fish. But even that, if we look at it from the Savior's perspective, yeah, that's great, but what if he doesn't have a fishing pole because he can't afford to get one or what if the lake

that he would fish in is so far away that he can't travel there, even though he knows how to fish. What if there's not clean water where fish are, it's this broader picture of carrying and alleviating the environment around us that will help all individuals be able to fish as it were, but that any time we reduce it to phrases or a particular act of giving to a bagger boy, we're going to miss the principal. I had a guy when I was a bishop come to me who was in a Mariachi band who had one of those guitars with the huge belly in the back and his was broken or stolen and that was his

livelihood. I remember as clear as day getting the impression from the Lord get that man a new guitar so he could go Back to that job of supporting this of his family and you know Those are when you're using the Lord's funds you you want inspiration, but it was very clear But I'd hate to go around telling people yeah, I spent fast offering funds to buy a guy a guitar But if they knew the whole story It was how he could provide for his family. Larry, this has been just wonderful.

We've learned some very basic principles, but I like learning about things I feel like I've already known about, but in new ways, learning about forgiveness and repentance and trials and giving, becoming like Christ. All new ways of looking at these fundamental principles of the gospel. So just to make sure we're covered here, what do you hope, if I'm a listener at home and I'm full of laundry or I'm commuting or I'm doing yard work, what are you hoping someone in that situation is feeling and and does you know, what do you hope they get out of it?

I hope first and foremost is you're not alone. You're not alone and I hope you feel that this life is a process rather than a list of things you need to do Be kind to yourself offer yourself some grace that at times you're that four-year-old child just learning how to ride a bicycle and we don't scold him or her when they don't get it right the first time and neither is our Heavenly Father scolding you when you don't become like him on the first try or the second or the third or the fourth. It's a process of becoming. It's not about the things that we're doing, but who we are becoming.

And that's like our Savior and like our Heavenly Parents. And once again, just as Kintns grow up to be cats and puppies grow up to be dogs, offspring of deity grow up to be divine adults. And that is a process. And he is with us, the Savior every step of the way, because he knows that we're going to experience pains and trials and hardships that come from our own bad choices, the bad choices of others that affect us and the conditions of mortality, they don't come from God, but they come from those three sources, but because our Savior was willing to suffer for our bad choices, the pain that we experience from the bad choices of others that affect us and the conditions that we experience here in a mortal fallen world. He's with us. He can help us as we act rather than be acted upon to forgive others.

He'll be with us every step of the way as we turn around and repent and get back on the path that it'll lead to becoming like him, and he'll be with us in the midst of our pain and suffering. And just like Paul who prayed but did not have the thorn in his flesh removed, may not take away that which is causing our pain and suffering, but we'll turn it into our benefit for our sake to help us become like our Heavenly Father. We can, instead of just doing honest things, we can become honest. Instead of just hearing talks about being patient, we can become patient and not just forgive somebody, but via that process become forgiving.

Or not alone in that becoming process. And I think it can be frustrating if you think, okay, I've got to do all of this perfectly today. Right, I've got to figure out how to forgive perfectly and repent perfectly and have a perfect understanding of how trials can be blessings. And I better go alleviate all the poverty in my town, right? Just to say, if you came through this discussion

and you have a desire to be a little bit better, I remember President Hinckley would say that all the time. And I don't think I quite understood what good advice that is, is be a little bit better because of this conversation than you're on your way. Just picture yourself just like that child standing up against the wall as tall as they can to have that mark.

The mark doesn't move quickly, but we're still growing. We're still progressing. Give yourself some grace, give grace to all those around who are in their own becoming process, at their own place in development. Just try in whatever way is presented before you today to do as God does and live as He lives. Be loving, be kind, be a little more honest than you were yesterday. Forgive someone today, help somebody's situation become a little bit better today and over time that mark on the wall we will see

increasing until line by line we reach our potential to become like him. Beautiful. I've loved this discussion because I know people, one of them is my wife who simply is charitable and sometimes I do charitable things but it's so natural to her, you know, and I need to be to be more that way. So I'll keep trying in my personal development to get there. So thank you for this. Well, thank you, Larry.

Thank you, Dr. Nelson. We should say thank you for being here. We have loved having you, by the way. You're new to follow him. We're grateful that you're here. You're now a friend. Thank you, your official friend of the way. You're new to follow him. We're grateful that you're here. You're now a friend, your official friend of the following audience. And I'm honored by that. I'm honored by that. Thank you. We want to thank Dr. Larry Nelson for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer,

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