Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - 2 Nephi 11-19 Part 1 • Dr. Shon D. Hopkin • Feb 26 - Mar 3 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

Why does Nephi spend significant time and effort teaching Isaiah? Dr. Shon Hopkin shares insights into the power of God’s covenants, the mission of Jesus Christ, and the meaning of the Abrahamic Covenant through the lens of the love of Jesus Christ.YouTube: https://youtu.be/uhzExQ8nq_cInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFree PDF download of quotes from our New Testament episodes:https://followhim.co/product/finding-jesus-christ-in-the-newtestament-book/Free PDF download of quotes from our Old Testament episodes:https://followhim.co/product/finding-jesus-christ-in-the-old-testament/00:00 Part 1–Dr. Shon Hopkin00:17 Last Week00:30 What to expect in 2 Nephi/Isaiah05:00 Bio of Dr. Shon Hopkin06:28 First simplicity08:11 Second simplicity and a nursery rhyme11:01 Understanding Isaiah in history13:58 Genesis 12-22 Abrahamic Covenant14:22 Joseph of Egypt17:28 40 years in the desert to a Divided Kingdom20:55 Assyria and Isaiah22:39 Place names24:07 Isaiah and preaching in Israel and Judah25:31 Nephi and Isaiah and important dates29:05 Isaiah 37: Assyria and Hezekiah33:20 Why Nephi loves Isaiah35:44 Land and identity37:32 Isaiah’s children38:59 2 Nephi 1739:59 2 Nephi 11-14 44:02 2 Nephi 14:5-6 Gather places46:40 2 Nephi 12 River flowing against gravity49:49 Descending off of the mountain52:08 2 Nephi 12:4 Why temples?54:46 Isaiah for Airheads by John Bytheway57:45 2 Nephi 13 Babylon is coming1:00:31 2 Nephi 26:20-231:04:00 2 Nephi 131:07:35 2 Nephi 13:12-13 Pride and downfall1:10:42 End of Part I–Dr. Shon HopkinThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Hello my friends, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name's Hank Smith. I'm here with my Isaiah loving co-host, John, by the way. John, I've heard it around that you love Isaiah. Is that true? I do love Isaiah, Hank, and maybe it's because I've had to put some time into it. When I had the opportunity to teach, the two most frightening things were the Isaiah chapters and the war chapters. But with some time, yeah, I feel better about it. The same way with me, John, it took some time. But as I worked through it, verse by verse, eventually, a light came on and it became beautiful to me. Speaking of Isaiah expertise,

John, we are joined by a Bible scholar. His name is Dr. Sean Hopkins. He's a good friend of ours. Sean, what are we looking forward to today? As we all know, Nephi quotes a large chunk of Isaiah. Many feel, oh, we are to the Isaiah chapters I will slog my way through. And I actually think people tend to get, I know the one verse that makes sense to me and I can find that verse in the chapter but let me sort of muddle my way through and they get really excited about that one verse and then muddle my way through again until the next verse. One of the things I like to say to my students is Isaiah does not reward

lazy reading and it doesn't reward listening to the scriptures at two or three times speed. It's not narrative. This is prophetic poetry and for those of you who never liked poetry, you're going to have to learn to love digging into symbolism, digging into beautiful language and it will reward you over and over and over again if you can take some time. You're not just going to zoom your way through it. There's beauty throughout enough beauty for an entire lifetime and beyond in Isaiah. Beautiful. I think it's crucial that we worship God with our heart, mind, and strength. So this is a form of worshiping God trying to understand difficult texts.

I love that and I think that was it Elder Bednar who talked about we can either skip it, we can skim it, we can read it, or we can search it. Jesus wants us to search Isaiah. This is a chance to go from a casual reader to a serious student to use the Ezra Tath Benson quotation. I love to tell my students, listen, we should never be intimidated by scripture. We are children of God with the gift of the Holy Ghost. This isn't a trial. This is a gift. Let's draw from this and be blessed by it. Isaiah is the best Hebrew in the Bible by far. It is detailed, it is nuanced, it's very careful, very skilled use of the Hebrew

language. The way that he spoke resonates and of course we experienced that through the King James Version which has its own beauty but the Hebrew is spectacularly beautiful, it's poetic, it's alliterative, it repeats certain sounds and he'll use a word that can point two different directions depending on how you translate it. And then he'll, in the first half of a verse, he'll say this and then second half of the verse he'll say this and that one word ties together those two slightly different messages. If you look at the way the Book of Mormon prophets talk about Isaiah and why they are quoting including Jesus, but also

others, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni. They are the same as the main purposes of the title page of the Book of Mormon. So why do they quote Isaiah? Because Isaiah is the foundation for... He helps them understand the world and they map their world onto the way that he talks about it. You get, remember that God's covenants are there anciently and are still there. You get, remember that Jesus is the Christ. It's testifying that Jesus is the Christ and God speaks to all of his children, both Jew and Gentile. So those are the three main messages of the title page. And that's actually, if you look at every time they say, hey, you should read Isaiah,

that's why they say we should read Isaiah because he does those things. Fascinating to see Isaiah track through the Book of Mormon and provide the Nephites an interpretive lens for understanding their world. And I think he could do the same, should do the same to a certain degree for us. I think we've done a great job here of saying, let's not avoid this. Let's embrace it. There's a great reward at the end for the work that needs to go into this. I frequently quote the Bible dictionary, as one understands Isaiah better, he or she more fully comprehends the mission of the Savior and the meaning of the covenant that was placed upon Abraham. Those are two things I really want. I want to more fully comprehend the mission of the Savior and the meaning of the Abrahamic covenant. Apparently, according to the Bible dictionary,

that comes through reading and understanding Isaiah. Now, before we go any further, John, let's introduce our audience to Dr. Hopkins. He's been here before, so he probably needs no introduction, but let's give a brief one anyway Yeah, Dr. Sean Hopkins from Denton, Texas In fact, he was a star pupil of mine at EFY in 1989 wonderful memories of those and so many Wonderful young people look where they are now. They're on podcast Sean attended Southwest High School in Fort Worth, Texas, but graduated from Orm High School, so you must have transferred, entered the transfer portal, went to Orm High,

received bachelor's and master's degrees from BYU and Near Eastern Studies. With a focus on the Hebrew Bible, no surprise based on what he just said, he received a PhD from the University of Texas at Austin in Hebrew studies with a focus on medieval Hebrew, Arabic, and Spanish literature. And he's currently the chair of the Department of Ancient Scripture. John, for anyone who's interested, go to our YouTube channel, type in, follow him, Sean Hopkins. You can hear some of the other episodes we've done.

We were in Genesis with Sean. We were in Psalms with Sean. We were also in Matthew 3 with Sean. And all of these episodes have been just fantastic, showing us new things we'd never seen before. Sean, with that, let's jump into the lesson. The title of this week's lesson is, His Name Shall Be Called the Prince of Peace and Our Chapters. Easy to cover, right, John? Second Nephi 11 through 19. There's not a lot in here, is there? Yeah, we're going to have an exciting run. Let's get right into the text. As we're just now entering into

this lengthy quotation, sometimes people think that Nephi may be stretching us a little bit, and then he's going to say, well, I glory in plainness and you think, no, Nephi, you're lying. Why would you do this to us? But I really do believe that Isaiah formed the foundation for the way Nephi understood things. And you have heard talked about before maybe this idea of first simplicity and second simplicity. First simplicity is when something's just very straightforward and simple. For at least the piano song, and I may have even said this on this podcast before. It's a beginning piano player could play that piece, and that's first simplicity. If an expert piano player played that piece, the notes would be basically the same, the rhythm would be basically the same, it would sound different. And so there is a simplicity on the

other side of complexity and that is what we are getting in Nephi's plainness. It's because he has absorbed Isaiah. And then one other little thing I'd like to say, he says, those who are living when these things will be fulfilled, they'll understand this better. And I think the tool we have of the teachings of the restored gospel and this idea President Elson is talking all the time about covenants, about the Abrahamic covenant, about the gathering in the last days. He really focuses in on these themes a lot. And once we start recognizing, wait a minute, Isaiah is talking about the same kinds of topics that I am hearing about in general conference, another place where we get second simplicity. Sometimes people are

confused, wow, this is just simple. But no, this is second simplicity. When general authorities teach, they are teaching on the other side of complexity. They boil it down to give us the most powerful information. It's not, well, we're right on the edge of our ability. We're on the other side and giving it to you plain and simple through the wisdom that's gained. There's a fun little tool here that some may want to use at some point as you're teaching about Isaiah. There are these nursery rhymes that were put into different language into sort of academic

language. Let me just do one of these with you just for fun. See if you can recognize what is being described here. A research team proceeded toward the apex of a natural geologic protuberance. The purpose of their expedition being the procurement of a sample of fluid hydride of oxygen in a large vessel the exact size of which was unspecified. Now some of you have fallen asleep. Some of you have figured out what this nursery rhyme is. Any takers, Hank or John? Back in Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Jack and Jill are the research team and they're going to the apex of a natural

geologic protuberance or in other words, they're going up a hill to get a pail of water or a sample of fluid, hydrate of oxygen, a large vessel, the exact size of which was unspecified. Let me just finish it off really quickly. One member of the team, we know that's Jack, precipitantly descended, sustaining severe fractural damage to the upper cranial portion of his anatomical structure, which is actually what happened. Subsequently, the second member of the team performed a self-rotational translation oriented in the direction taken by the first team member. Wow. That's sort of not exciting until you realize,

wait, I know this story and you can map them onto each other. And all of a sudden, the way that those words are being used doesn't confuse or frustrate or put you to sleep. Instead, it's exciting because it gives you new ways of thinking about what's going on. It gives you a new direction to sort of ponder. But it's fun, we know this story. We are taught these same themes that Isaiah is teaching. Now, while that is true, you hear this over and over again, I'm sure, from people that are on this podcast, that the ancient world has so many similarities with us,

but it is also very much foreign territory. Understanding what's going on in Isaiah's timeframe can serve as a very important key to help us unlock meaning for us so that we can apply it in more appropriate ways. Nephi calls this process likening. So we're gonna do some of this. We'll see, okay, what's going on in Isaiah's day

so that the whole chapter can make sense, not just the one verse that we find over and over and over again. And then when we've got that context, we can liken it to ourselves in much more powerful ways. Excellent. I love that Jack and Jill. I mean, I have my children memorize that so it can just rolls off the tongue really. Before we jump into the text, why don't we just take a few moments to situate ourselves in history? For some, this will be very straightforward for others.

It won't be straightforward. It just sort of depends on what your previous experience is. And some of the dates that I will give are wild approximates. People would say, no, he's 200 years off. So just hang in there. some of this early history We don't have great dates for all of it. Let's say that Abraham lived around about 2000 BC and you'll get earlier dates you'll get later dates and then let's put his grandson Jacob or Israel and his 12 sons. So now we're two to three generations later around and his twelve sons. So now we're two to three generations later, around 1900 BC or so. The Abrahamic Covenant will say about 2000 BC and Abraham then of course is in the land of Canaan and then there's going to be a famine there and Joseph about 1850 BC will say goes down into Egypt and then they all end up in Egypt 400 years later

1450 or so BC some would put it later than that Moses delivers them back up out of Egypt. They come into the promised land. You get the reign of the judges people like Samson and others Samuel at the end of this timeframe leading into the reign of the king Saul, David, Solomon right around 1000 BC. The grandson of David, Rheoboam, is going to preside then as the kingdom divides and splits into a north half called the kingdom of Israel. Sometimes it confuses us because it's called the Kingdom of Israel. It's got 10-ish tribes and the southern Kingdom of Judah, two-ish tribes in the southern kingdom, but called the Kingdom of Judah because Judah is who the kingship runs through and it's

by far the most powerful tribe there. So that's about 930 BC and now we are about two centuries after those divided kingdoms and these are going to be like siblings or cousins. They will be often frenemies. There's this close linkage but they struggle to get along. They split apart earlier and they've continued to have, in some respects, similar needs and desires, but in other respects, they sort of begin to diverge and who they are and what their identity is. By the time you get to Isaiah, there is a crisis going on where the northern kingdom of Israel is threatening the southern kingdom of Judah. And they're using their neighbor's erum, or as we would think of it, Syria, to threaten Judah.

That's really how the storyline is gonna play out here. Warring siblings, if you have one of those, and we know what that's like a little bit. John, let's make sure we understand. For anybody who's listening who went, okay, I followed that a little bit. Let's just review really quick. And John, I want to hear your Charlton Heston impressions here. Where would I go? Genesis 12, Sean, for Abraham in the covenant? 12 through 22 or so. Yep. Genesis 18 is an

important one as well. This family, he says Abraham Abraham, your family is gonna bless the whole earth. I'm gonna give you commandments. And with those commandments, you're gonna get blessings. You're gonna bless the whole earth. That goes from Abraham and Sarah to Isaac and Rebecca to Jacob and Rachel, Leha, Bilhah and Zilpa. Jacob gets his name changed to Israel. They have the 12 sons, the most famous of which John is Joseph.

Joseph, I look handsome. I look smart. I am a walking work of art. Excellent. Yes. Many people have seen the play. They just haven't read the book. Then we get enslaved in Egypt because Joseph brings the family to Egypt to save them. Sean, why don't they just go home after being saved in the famine?

Do we know? That's between Genesis and Exodus. Part of the answer to that may be, I mean, they've moved everybody down there and there is a lengthy famine. Egypt is actually a pretty reliable kind of place. It was the bread basket of the ancient world. The Nile would do its regular flooding thing and they rarely had to deal with famines and

they often, you see Egypt saving Israel more than once. Even in Jesus' day, you get this theme replaying where Joseph, once again, Jesus' adoptive father takes Jesus down into Egypt and then Jesus is going to come up back up out of Egypt so that these themes play in multiple times. And the way I like to think of it, we often think of Egypt as this symbol, this negative symbol. If Egypt didn't exist, then the gospel, the covenant people doesn't survive. I like to think of Egypt as a symbol of the world.

God sends us to the world from premortality to mortality. We live here, but we just don't want to get terribly seduced by this place, by the ease and comfort that the world sometimes offers. And maybe they're seduced a little bit by that. Life is a little bit harsher at times back up in Canaan, what's going to be Israel later on. They just stay and then they get enslaved and then they can't go because they're enslaved. Let's follow our story here. So those 12 sons of Jacob and his wives, when his name is changed to Israel, they become the 12 tribes of Israel. So I imagine the family's much bigger at this point, but they're enslaved. They want out of bondage. They want to go to the promised land, promised to Abraham, that original promise promise here comes Charlton Heston, right John?

Yeah, Chuck Heston is as we know him a friend of the podcast Watching that movie as a kid is kind of where I learned this so Moses became this deliverer Who is going to lead them out of Egyptian bondage? I think the kids nowadays know Prince of Egypt a lot better. Wouldn't you say Hank? Yeah, water, mud, faster. Yes. Second born second place.

Yeah, let my people go. They leave Egypt. They cross the Red Sea. They go to the Promised Land, but they end up not being ready for it. Sean. And so the Lord sends them into the wilderness. Is that how I should read that? Yeah, it doesn't take 40 years. It doesn't take two years.

It takes a few months, maybe, with a large group of people to get across the Sinai Peninsula, that desert. It's not that they're wandering around lost. They stay for about 38 years in one place. They're just not allowed to go in. They're preparing to go in, so to speak. It's easy to get Israel out of Egypt, but not easy to get Egypt out of Israel. Let's keep going here. They enter the Promised Land under Joshua, and now we can be the covenant people again. But by the time Samuel the prophet, son of Hannah, comes around, they've decided they don't want to be

covenant people. They want kings John am I telling the story right Sean like the rest of the nations? We want to be like the nations and this is what that king will do. He'll take your sons He'll take your daughters. They'll run before the chariots. He'll make them bakers it and the people still say I know But we want a king like all the nations and the Lord, well, they haven't rejected you. They've rejected me. Give them a king. It's kind of that. Go ahead.

That's what they wanted. The message is God is supposed to be our king and our lawgiver, but they want to have a king. Yeah. Our first three kings then are Saul, David, and Solomon. And then, Sean, you said something happens after Solomon. The kingdom divides. Yeah.

So they split into two kingdoms. And by the way, even though Saul, David and Solomon are the most famous and in some ways the best examples you might say of kingship, they model the problems already. Like in those first three, you see all the problems like David takes someone else's wife for his own and then kills someone to take someone else's wife for his own and then kills someone to take someone else's wife for his own. So you certainly see those concerns and then King Mosai, of course, in the Book of Mormon, is going to be really concerned about what wicked kings are going to do and history plays out that way. Like history supports that original statement that the Lord makes to Samuel. You get Solomon's son, Reheoboham, gets some bad counsel and says,

you want things to be lighter? I'm going to make them heavier. I'm going to make things tougher. And that doesn't work out for him, as you might expect, and you get a split. You see, students give some recognition when you talk about the Northern Kingdom had the 10 tribes, because they've heard about the lost 10 tribes. So that's what we're talking about when you talk about the Northern Kingdom had the Ten Tribes because they've heard about the Lost Ten Tribes. So that's what we're talking about when we talk about the Northern Kingdom, right? Right. We sing it in the Articles of Faith. Right. And that actually happens during Isaiah's lifetime. And so sometimes people will say,

why is Isaiah so dark at times? Why is he so negative at times? And this is real. He is a truth teller. It would be like, you know, my son runs into the street and I'm like, Hey, you're fine, buddy. People do great out there. That wouldn't be a very loving thing to do. He sees real issues and they are going to see the entire kingdom of Israel overrun by Assyria and then many of them carried away captive and then they disappear. Like the 10 tribes become the lost in tribes

and they never recover in antiquity. And the prophets actually continue to point to, hey, by the way, this covenant isn't just with Judah. The Northern tribes are gonna be restored as well, but they're gone. And this happens during Isaiah's lifetime, major upheaval during his lifetime. Assyria, it's actually Neo-Assyria, historically speaking, as we

talk about it, but Assyria is wreaking havoc throughout the world at this point. Let's stop for a second because people are listening, and this is what used to confuse me. There is Syria, S-Y-R-I-A, and there's Assyria, A-S-S-Y-R-I-A, and they're both involved in what Isaiah is talking about. I like to say I have a bias for the kingdoms in Isaiah's time. Bias meaning Babylon, Israel, Assyria, and Syria. And then they could kind of get, okay, here's some of the kingdoms evolved because everybody knows Egypt. We all remember Egypt because we have Prince of Egypt. But those other kingdoms come into play and I like the way Victor Ludlow said it. Assyria is like the military, cruel superpower.

Babylon's like the cultural commercial center like New York, New York. And that helped me think to what Isaiah's got to deal with, with his people when there's enemies like Assyria and Babylon out there. Syria is actually this sort of close threatening neighbor. They're the nearby threat, but Assyria is the real threat. And by the way, Syria is what we get in the King James version. Aram is what they would have been known as at that point. Assyria is the real terror. Sean, let me ask a couple of questions just to clarify a little bit more. We have our basically a civil war between these two kingdoms.

And now they both have separate kings. So we've got kings in the north and kings in the south. So if one king wasn't enough, let's have two. Ten tribes in the north, like John said, two tribes in the south. Now Isaiah comes onto the scene right about then. Does he have access to both of these? And my second question is, when I read Isaiah, he doesn't seem to refer to Israel and Judah at times. He calls them different things, which can be confusing.

He will often refer to Israel by the name Ephraim, which is the dominant tribe in the north and is biblically considered the birthright tribe. And so he sort of parallels Judah in the south, which is just one of the tribes, but it's the kingship tribe with Ephraim in the north. He'll sometimes besides Ephraim call the northern kingdom by its capital city, Samaria. And then Syria, who is further north or Aram, he will often call them by their capital city, Damascus. You'll hear him doing that a lot of times and it gets confusing until you get it sorted out a little bit. Maybe we'll talk about this when we're in 2nd Nephi 17, because I had to make a map and

write all those things down before I ever understood it. When I explain to my students, if I say the White House, if I say the Oval Office, if I say 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, if I say Washington, D.C., they know that I'm referring to the same place. And that's kind of what Isaiah is. So there's Israel and Samaria and Pika, the king, and the son of Ramalia, who is also Pika, and Ephraim, who's the dominant tribe, and Isaiah,

doesn't, he refers five different words to the same place. We do that too. We just have to learn these in Isaiah's time, and then it makes it easier. And if you're me, you have to make a chart, and then you get it. Yeah, I think to make a chart, and then you get it. Yeah, I think that's well said. Sean, does Isaiah, does he live in the Northern Kingdom or the Southern, and does he have access to both?

He is very much in the Southern Kingdom, in fact, with strong access to the court. He is someone who is closely connected to the kings of Judah at the time, which isn't always the case. So you've got Amos, who is more like a sheepherder or a farmer, a rancher. And then you've got Isaiah, who is highly educated. He's erudite, and he communicates beautifully and powerfully in kingly courts, but he doesn't pull any punches, as we know, he tells them the truth. But when Isaiah decides to meet with a king, lo and behold, that king meets with him. Now, does he have access to the north? Most would say that the things that Isaiah teaches are actually being sent to the courts

and the lands where he is prophesying, it's certainly not going to function anywhere close to what we would understand today with our internet access, but that there is a way in which these things are not just these little internal statements he's making, but they're actually oriented to influence these other kingdoms as well. When he prophesies about Moab, they're oriented to influence those countries. Not everybody would agree with that, but that's pretty widely understood that way. Nefi obviously has the words of Isaiah. I think most people could tell you Nephi and Lehi leave Jerusalem around 600 BC. So what is their relationship to Isaiah? They don't live at the same time period? Isaiah is going to be about 100 to 130 or so years before Nephi.

This comparison is sometimes made. If you think of Joseph Smith in 1840 or so, we're about 180 years after Joseph Smith, then we're a little further out at this point, but that's something of a similar situation or a comparison to the distance. And Isaiah really is the man for them. His prophecies are highly influential throughout the history of Israel. Let me give you a few more main events just to see if it'll help a few people. During Isaiah's lifetime, let me give you three-ish main events and then like three main events after Isaiah's lifetime. And then I think historically we'll have the bones of it. Isaiah is going to be called maybe around 740 BC right at the end of Uzziah's reign. And then five years later, or around 735 BC, you're

going to get this thing that we're going to be talking about more today, the Zero Ephraimite War, where Syria and Ephraim or Israel are threatening Judah. That's a big deal, historically speaking. And Isaiah is going to deal with it. About 10 to 15 years after that in 722, 721 BC, that's when a series is going to come back down and carry the tribes away, destroy the northern kingdom of Israel that happens right in the middle of Isaiah's time as prophet. He sees that happen. His people see those siblings to the North disappear. By the way, this is probably one of the main times when you get people from the North fleeing down to Judah and maybe this is when Lehi's ancestors, so about 120 years before Lehi, his ancestors

may have shown up and it's probably going to be most prevalently the educated and the leaders who have the means to flee down, which would then help us understand why Nephi is so good with literature. He may be coming from a scribal kind of a tradition. But there's a reason why Manasseh is sitting in Jerusalem, the tribe of Manasseh, which is what Lehi and Nephi are from. The genesis of this is during Isaiah's lifetime. And then one more date in Isaiah's lifetime in his ministry is 701 BC. This is the event that Isaiah cares about most. He prophesies about it. He focuses on it. This is when Assyria is going to come down and try to take Jerusalem but fail to take Jerusalem because Hezekiah the king is righteous and points them towards the Lord and the Lord saves them miraculously.

Assyria wanted the whole thing but only got the northern kingdom, not the southern. What happens is that Israel keeps trying to throw off the yoke of Assyria and Assyria comes and punishes them for it. A has, as we're going to see here when we look a little more closely at these chapters, he's going to stay under the yoke of Assyria, but his son Hezekiah is going to throw off the yoke of Assyria and that takes Assyria off and they're going to come down and try to wipe out Judah just like they wiped out Israel 20 years earlier. So that's sort of how that plays out.

Does Isaiah have anything to do with Judah surviving or is he just watching this happen? There is this really powerful moment, particularly for Latter-day Saint readers. You can see it in Isaiah 37. When Assyria is at the doors, they have Jerusalem under siege. Rob Shaquette, as Syrian doors, they have Jerusalem under siege, Rob Chaket, the Syrian leader

is threatening Jerusalem with destruction and mocking Hezekiah. And Hezekiah gets the message, he rins his clothes, he takes it seriously, he goes to the temple to pray to God at the temple. He sends his messengers to Isaiah to say, Isaiah, what should we do? And Isaiah, it's really powerful. So he's praying in the temple and a prophetic message comes in response to that prayer. So think of that triangulation, by the way, for Latter-day Saints. You go to the temple and you listen to the prophets. You go to the temple and pray to the Lord. And one of the ways powerfully that the Lord

answers your prayer is through prophetic messages. In fact, I would say Latter-day Saints can apply that story better than any other people in the world. We have a great member of our team. Her name is Lisa Spice and if Lisa were here, she might say her favorite episode of Follow Him was when we had Josh Sears last year. Sean, you're her second favorite. But when we had Josh Sears come on and do 2nd Kings 17 through 25 where he talked about this very story. So I'd encourage anyone who's interested to go to go find that. Isaiah to Nephi then not only is a prophet, but he's almost like a war hero. He saved the country. Is that a good

way to think about it? Certainly Hezekiah and then guided by prophet Isaiah. And then that sort of leads to the last couple of important things that we should mention. So if Isaiah is 740 to 700 BC, Nephi is about 100 years later in 600 BC, right around the time of Nephi and Lehi, were right up at the time when Babylon's going to come just like Assyria did, but Assyria failed to take Jerusalem. Babylon is going to come and due to Judah and Jerusalem, what Assyria did to the northern tribes earlier. But because those southern tribes continue to trust in the Lord, even in exile, that's when you get people like Daniel and Ezekiel leading them in exile in Babylon. God promises

them Isaiah prophesies of this. You are going to come back home, hang in there. And this never happened anciently. If your temple is destroyed and you're carried away by a foreign power, that means they're God won, you're God lost, you are done and you're going to go get put in slavery and absorbed into that people. But they hold strong to their identity. They're changed by that experience, but they hold strong to their identity and God sends them home when, as John has been telling us, so you get first Assyria, the major threat, and then Babylon beats Assyria and Babylon, then is the one that's going to take Judah. And then Cyrus with the Persians is going to defeat Babylon, and Cyrus is the one who

says, I'm going to send those people home. And Cyrus has talked about in the book of Isaiah as being this savior kind of a figure. And that sort of brings our short and sweet historical run to a close. Yeah, and I, Sean, I realized that took a while, but to me, in my teaching of Isaiah, that story that we just told from Abraham to Isaiah is crucial if you want to understand what Isaiah really is talking about. If you really want to understand his context, why he's saying what he's saying, who he's talking to, and why he would be saying certain things to these certain cities and lands,

that story I would encourage everybody. Like, oh, I didn't get that. Okay, go back. Rewind. That's a word from the 1900s. Rewind. And go through it again. John, anything you would add?

You've taught this before. Yeah. What I love about this is, and we brought this up in Old Testament, is that Jerusalem, not Judah, but Jerusalem had been miraculously saved. And then Lehi comes and says Jerusalem's going to be destroyed. And that their recent memory they have, no, it didn't fall last time. Sean, let me ask one more question. Then we get into the text. Why do you think, time. Sean, let me ask one more question then we get into the text. Why do you think, and I know you can't be Nephi, but why do you think Nephi loves Isaiah so much? Nephi actually gives a couple of reasons why he loves Isaiah so much and why he wants to quote him. And one of the primary reasons is in the reading for this week in 2nd Nephi 11. It is a big deal to Nephi that Isaiah saw the Savior, that Isaiah saw the Redeemer, that Isaiah had this throne

theophany or throne vision of Yahweh. And Nephi is like, well, I've seen God, Jacob seen God. I'm going to quote from Jacob, Isaiah saw God. And I sometimes say to my students, I have learned more about the nature of God from Joseph Smith and from Isaiah than from any other source. And I suspect Nephi was led to believe that God was willing to reveal himself to him in part because of the words of Isaiah. This sort of functions to open up the Book of Mormon. Lehi has a vision of God seated on a throne. We would think of this. He's surrounded by angels so that a

vying council, he's invited into this experience with God and given a message and sent forth. That's exactly the same thing that happens with Isaiah. That's exactly the same thing that happens with Nephi. So that's one answer why Nephi loves Isaiah, but then all of the themes that are gonna be important to him as he's leading his people, he sees those because Isaiah has cared about, no, there's gonna be people carried away and then that righteous remnant will be preserved in the last days and they give him hope, they give him joy, they remind

him that they're not cast off forever, that the covenants are going to work in the last days and they testify of the Redeemer. All of those things are what are going to give his life meaning. So I don't know which comes first in the cycle. If he learned it first in Isaiah and then he saw the world there, or if he sees this and then he's reading the scriptures and the scriptures, answer this problem. I think in our lives,

it probably is a little bit of both. We read the scriptures and they help us understand our world, but then we've got needs that drive us back to the scriptures and there are the answers. This is how it seems to function for Nephi. Once these folks lost their real estate, they kind of lost part of their identity, for Nephi to share Isaiah with them helps them know this is us. We are still part of the covenant.

We still have the blessing and the burden of being covenant Israel. Isn't it wonderful that President Nelson talking to the young single adults said, I want you to remember these three identities, your child of God, your child of the covenant and your disciple of Christ. I find reminding him, we're in a different area code, but we have a covenant obligation and covenant promises that are still valid and intact. If you go back into the 1900s even, President Nelson is talking about this story that we're covering if anybody wants to Read his history of this he actually gave it in general conference October of 2006 the gathering of scattered Israel and he walks through that same history that we just did now

Sean let's call for simplicity sake Let's call the loss of the northern kingdom, the 10 tribes, and the loss of the southern kingdom 130 years later, the two tribes as the scattering of Israel. Nephi's living it then. He's living the scattering of Israel. What is it about Isaiah that helps Nephi understand their situation as being not tossed away, but led away from their home. Yeah, their situation is going to be trickier and different than what is used to because they are led away. He's going to start helping Laman and Lemuel try to understand this by quoting from Isaiah. We're on the aisles of the sea we've been separated out. And they're like,

Jerusalem was righteous. And he quotes from them a chapter that says Jerusalem is not righteous. He's quoting to them from Isaiah. The other thing that I would say, I think that is helpful to Nephi, this is such a big deal to Isaiah. He actually names one of his children. A remnant will return, Sharia Shoeve. So if he has two children, one of those children gets a name that sort of connects with scattering, Mahershala Hashbas and or probably known as the Baz to his friends. And then Sharia Shoe, his first child is a promise. And actually, Isaiah, right in these chapters that we're looking at this week, he's going to say, I and my children are for signs to Israel.

Isaiah, what stirs his heart? Oh, let me name my child directed by the Lord. Shia'a Yashuv, a remnant will return. There's going to be a scattering, but God's covenants permeate and can last throughout history, permeate history, and a remnant will be gathered. And this is going to make all the difference to Nephi who's seen a vision of his people be destroyed, that name of Isaiah's son, but a remnant will return. I wanted to name my firstborn son, the Jazal win the championship. That's what I was hoping to, my wife vetoed it. It's a good thing you didn't so far anyway.

But we're hanging on to hope. Yeah, Ryan Smith, if you're listening, we believe, we believe. Sean, with that, don't you think we're gonna be able to go through the text now with an understanding? This makes a huge difference actually, and we're gonna see it, we'll dig into some other chapters before we get to second Nephihi 17 which is Isaiah 7 but once we get to Isaiah 7 it's gonna be huge to understand what's going on and that famous

verse, a virgin will give birth, right, and his name shall be called Immanuel and we go to that one verse and we love that verse but the whole rest of the chapter is gibberish if you don't understand that context. And understand the context doesn't rob that verse of its power. It actually enhances its power as we're going to see as we study these chapters. I think it changes everything as you study Isaiah. The first half of the Isaiah class that I teach, I'm like, just hang in there with this history. It's like reading the Book of Mormon and having no clue who Nephi, layman, or Lemuel are. You got to get familiar with what's going on and then all of a sudden the story is really going to resonate with you. It's like reading a big fantasy novel and you

lose track of the characters and then you get bored because you don't know who's what or what's going on. I mentioned that one of the reasons Nephi loves Isaiah is found right in 2nd Nephi 11. It is that Isaiah is going to be someone who has seen the Redeemer. Well, we're gonna see that in these very powerful chapters. Let's move out of 2nd Nephi 11 and let's go ahead and dig in to the beginning of this lengthy quotation of Isaiah that Nephi is going to give us in 2nd Nephi 12. I want to show you something. If you think of 2nd Nephi 12 through 14 as a literary unit, and if you think of a chaiastic balance where things are mirrored at the beginning at the end and then in the middle, you'll have a focal point, but notice what Isaiah does at the beginning

of these chapters, Second Nephi 12, Isaiah two starts with this idea of people flowing to a temple of God. And this is gonna matter to Isaiah's people because they are going to end up seeing the temple destroyed. Look at chapter 12 verse two of Second Nephi, it shall come to pass the last days when the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains and shall be exalted

above the hills and all nations shall flow unto it. Many people shall go and say, come ye, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us of his ways, we'll walk in his paths out of Zion, shall go forth along the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Well, we'll come back to that in a moment, but that's a powerful prophecy that there will be a temple in the last days. Actually, before I go to the other bookend in 2 Nephi 14, let me just mention that so as Latter-day Saints, we're often going to think as we read these verses very beautifully so while Isaiah is talking about the Salt Lake Temple, it's built in the top of the mountains as the Native Americans use the Native Americans who live in the top of the mountains.

This is sort of what that name means. And we sort of thrill to think of all nations flowing to the Salt Lake Temple. You go to general conference and you've got a worldwide church represented there having flowed to that temple. To a desert area, you might say, against the force of gravity, that word for will flow shall be established on the top of the mountains, all nations shall flow unto it. That's the word for river, Nahar, but it's made a verb, Naharu, and it's flowing upward against gravity. So think of all these people coming to wear, to Salt Lake City, and this is the way it works. And we are a people, you might say the only people who's

actually living the story. Now, our hearts thrill to that, and I think appropriately so, but I think with confidence I could say Isaiah's ancient audience would not have understood this as, okay, there's going to be some other place on the other side of the world in the last days. They're going to be thinking of the Jerusalem temple will be rebuilt in the last days and they're right. They're not wrong. So what I don't know as we talk about Isaiah's ancient context and then a likening or a fulfillment or maybe multiple fulfillments over time is what Isaiah saw in his brain. I can't get into Isaiah's brain. Is he seeing the Jerusalem temple? Is he seeing the Salt Lake temple? Is he seeing both? Does he know

how his words will be applied or does God inspire him to speak in a certain way or inspire Latter-day prophets to talk about this, but this is the idea of likening. I'm confident his ancient audience didn't understand that there would be a Salt Lake city temple someday, but God did and what Isaiah would have seen, I'm just not exactly sure. I have my students vote on this and I tell them, okay, we'll send this to the first presidency so that they know how we voted. And most often Latter-day Saint students will want to say, I think he saw both. But I do think that's helpful

when we talk about ancient context and then some of our Latter-day fulfillments. We've got the first bookend here of this chiasm, Chapter 12, Verse 2, about this temple being rebuilt and people are flowing to it to learn about God. That is exactly right. So that's bookend on one side, and then in the middle you have these apostate sort of situation, this really challenging description of them rejecting the Lord. But then look at how Isaiah is going to end this in Isaiah 4 or 2nd Nephi 14 with a similar kind of promise, a balancing promise that our hearts can rejoice to as well. Look at the tail end of 2nd Nephi 14, 5 through 6 and the Lord will create upon every dwelling

place of Mount Zion. There you have homes and upon her assemblies, there you might say anciently they're gathering to the temple, but you talk about gathering place. Later on, they're going to have synagogues that they gather to. A cloud and smoke by day and a shining of a flaming fire by night, that's symbolism connected to the Exodus, when God's going to lead them through. The provo temple is right in the midst. It's about to start its remodel. I'm sure it'll be beautiful and spectacular, and we will lose some of the symbolism of the Provo Temple with that sort of circular cloud at the bottom and then the pillar of fire there on top of it. God

isn't the temple. The temple isn't God. God, you can seek after the Lord in the temple. He will guide you through the wilderness as we seek after him in the temple. He's using that imagery here on the other bookend on every dwelling place or home upon her gatherings and we would apply that in our days to our church meetings. It would be a good application and then He's going to guide them by this cloud during the day, shining a flame fire by night. Upon all the glory of Zion shall be a defense and there shall be a tabernacle and there is our temple think of the three holy spaces of Latter-day Saints that holiest places in the world home church temple and there is Isaiah

pointing to the importance of homes gathering places and Tabernacles or temples this sort of tent imagery that the tabernacle is going to use. And it's going to function how? For a shadow in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, a covert from storm and from rain. Beginning of Second Nephi 12, end of Second Nephi 14. Those are the bookends and they're so beautiful and every Latter-day Saint heart should say, oh my goodness, this is my story.

So think of that nursery rhyme in weird words and you're like, what is going on here? And then you're like, oh, no, I know this story. We are living this story. If we go back to Second Nephi 12 and this idea of a river flowing against gravity up a mountain, I may have shared this with you before in a previous podcast, but our kids, we try to get them up early when we had kids at home. We are now newly empty nesters for the first time,

oddly enough. Yeah, that's why I look so old this year and sad, but it's life. Anyway, when we had kids at home, we would try to do these early morning baptism for the dead temple trips to the provo temple. And we would bribe them a little bit with McDonald's breakfast. I don't know if that sounds like good bribery or not, but we'd get up at 430. I can't remember exactly when the temple opened, but maybe 5am, something like that. And nobody's rewarding anybody for that besides maybe a little bit of McDonald's. Nobody's cheering you on your way. Your bishop isn't counting the numbers there to give you a star.

You love the Lord and you're getting up against the gravity. These are teenagers. And as I've said at times before, when I tell my friends of other faiths that we have early morning seminary and that we get our kids to go do baptism for the at five in the morning, they're like, what? And then I tell them, yeah, and we don't drink coffee. And they're like, no, it's impossible. We're working against the gravity of life.

Stay in bed. You go to bed late, you get up late. We'd get closer to the temple and all of these car lights would start to converge on the temple. They're like flowing against gravity at 5 a.m. and then we go into the baptistry in the provo temple and it is full of young people who have gotten up at 5 a.m. to come do work for people that they can't even see because they love them and they love the Lord. This is our story. Isaiah is telling our story and Nephi, they're going to separate from the Lamanites. They're at risk. What's one of the first things they do, like the Latter-day Saints when they got to Utah? They build a

first things they do, like the Latter-day Saints when they got to Utah, they build a temple. They build a temple and they go to the temple. When Hezekiah is threatened, where does he go? He goes to the temple. This is a story that I think resonates right from the start with every Latter-day Saint heart. I love the emphasis on the temple here. The manual emphasizes it too and I'm thinking of moms and dads with young children out there trying to teach them and I thought maybe it would be fun to talk about how a mountain is like a temple and how it takes effort to get there going uphill like you just said. But once you're there you have great perspective and you can see it far off. I think we love hiking to the tops of mountains. We don't love the hike, but there is something about the grandeur of seeing God's creation spread below you and you just sort of feel,

oh, God is real and God loves me. God has created all of this because he loves his children. That's what being out of nature does for me and at the tops of mountains. You come up out of the pollution, out of the chaos, out of the nitty gritty of daily living. And I used to wish I could take a little white sleeping bag with me and just stay in the celestial room because the celestial room is like that. You feel God's love. Oh, God loves me. God sees me. There is a purpose. There's an order to all of these things, but God doesn't let us bring our white sleeping bag. We got to go back. We got to descend off the mountain and then take the joy and the affirmation of that experience and let that help carry us through some of the challenging days that sometimes come and months and sometimes years in mortality, but we've

got a temple as a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night to guide us. I think that's really, really great, John. Thank you mentioned that the Israelites were out of Egypt, but they had to get the Egypt out of them. I remember hearing was it Sister Elaine Dalton talking about when we go to the temple as often as we can, the temple is in us. We can go to the temple as often as we can the temple is in us we can go to the temple and then we leave the temple but part of the temple is in us like you said we long to be there again yeah it's tough when the arm goes off of 430 but when you're there you have that Peter feeling it is good for me to

be here I think all of us have experienced that when we're in the temple it is good for me to be here and speaking of a hike Shawn we're in the temple. It is good for me to be here. And speaking of a hike, Sean, we're going against the flow of gravity when you're trying to get to the top of that mountain. The whole rest of the world. When you're climbing a mountain, it can sure burn trying to burn those muscles, trying to go against the law of gravity, pushing your way up. It is fascinating how well that fits with our ladder day temple worship. The world does not reward these kinds of behaviors. You're going to take three hours out of a day and you're going to go, just to put it not in very nice terms,

you're going to go serve dead people. Like these aren't people that are going to be able to help you out. But Latter-day Saints over and over again use our time to show we believe that the next world is real, that there is a God and that life continues after this life and that there is a community of Saints that stretches beyond mortality. We honor the lives of those who have gone but the forgotten ones, a remnant shall return and one of the places they're going to return is as we do work in a temple of God. Sometimes I'll get a question from a student that will say something like, why do we spend so much money, so much resources on temples when that could be given to feed the poor? And I frequently

come to 2nd Nephi 12 verse 4. Isaiah says there in the temple they beat their swords into plows and their spears into pruning hooks. And often that's lost to my students. What is that about? Well, weapons of destruction are changed into tools of production. The temple can become a place where I become a people feeder. Does that make sense? Where I change from a sword to a plow, where I personally change, John you said that, that the temple becomes part of me, where I

personally change from a spear, right, a weapon to a pruning hook. Perhaps the temple could be a place that we create people feeders. People walking out of the temple are now ready to feed the world, both physically and spiritually. I think that's really well said. The behaviors we engage in in the temple are peaceful building kinds of behaviors. It's not competitive in nature. Oh, I've got to earn more money or be more successful at my job than the next person in this race of life. I am going to take a step away to remember and build Israel in peaceful ways. I love that harvestry and connecting that with the temple.

I haven't done that before, Hank, to sort of connect. I love the peaceful imagery of Isaiah, and I like pointing to that, but to connect it with what we do in the temple is really profound. I've thought you could feed people with those millions of dollars, but what if you could create a machine that creates people feeders for hundreds of years, then your investment into this building, this million dollar, whatever investment into this building becomes much, much more lasting than a one time feeding. If you build people who will then change the world to be a better place and will then take

what they learn in the temple and go out to feed both spiritually, emotionally, but also physically, literally like the humanitarian work of the church, that is money well spent if there's a space that changes the kind of human beings that we are. Change our nature. Speaking of these verses about swords and plowshares and pruning hooks, I have my copy of Isaiah for Airheads. I don't mean to embarrass you, John, but this book was written by none other than John, by the way, Isaiah for Airheads. The chief airhead, that's me. The the chief airhead and this is what you wrote John I don't know if you remember writing this you talked about second e5 12 for swords into plow shares and spears into pruning hooks in

The millennial day weapons for killing will be turned into tools for living Can you imagine how many farm implements? How many pruning hooks could be made out of an aircraft carrier in? 2005 the United States Department of Defense budget totaled $400 billion. And I looked it up, John, since you wrote this book, this year it's double that and a little bit more. It's over $800 billion in just a year for the Department of Defense. And then this great question. Imagine what can be done for the poor in all the world when millennial peace reigns

and the inhabitants of the earth shall not learn war anymore. That's a quote from Isaiah 12, four. Now, we're not against the Department of Defense by any means, but you're right, John, how many plows and pruning hooks could be made out of just one aircraft carrier? May peace come. And what you just said, Hank, about the temple, people coming out of the temple, imagine the changed hearts of everybody on the planet and what good will come when our hearts are turned to

each other instead of to war like that. when hearts are turned to each other instead of to war like that. John, let me express appreciation for your book. I've read it all and the way that it can help Latter-day Saints understand the words of Isaiah. I think that's beautiful. So, Sean, where do we want to go next with this? Do you want to stay here or should we keep going into what you've called this apostasy dark time between 12 and 14? apostasy dark time between 12 and 14. So let's go into the middle. But as we leave, because this is Book of Mormon, it's Nephi quoting Isaiah. Let me just point out, you can see right

here, some things that matter to Nephi and Isaiah, all nations. Remember the title page of the Book of Mormon, both Jew and Gentile, all people, it's right there. Covenants and that temple will be built in the last days. You can see Nephi talking, or Isaiah talking and Nephi quoting, about the ways of the Lord. And then think of when he's going to talk about the doctrine of Christ and talk about that as the way. Early Christians were often referred to, we believe, as the way. It's sort of an interesting word and Nephi's going to apply this word later on.

You can see some themes that are going to matter a lot. Nephi, of course, is going to build a temple when they're in their new promised land. Lots of things that right off the bat, we're seeing that Nephi would have cared about here in Isaiah. Now, this middle part is really fascinating, and it's really important to understand the ancient context. He's going to talk about challenges with idolatry in the rest of chapter 12. And then I want us to move forward into chapter 13, which is Isaiah 3, where he's going to talk about what happens anciently when Assyria or Babylon

comes and attacks and carries away your leaders and your land sort of returns to this nomadic pasture land kind of a state and in one sense that's idyllic but it's the result of all of those powerful and mighty and wealthy being pulled away by this conquering army. And that's really what's going on historically. And Isaiah's prophesying about this matter. This is going to happen in his lifetime to Israel and it's going to happen to Judah. And then again, it's going to happen in more power, more complete ways to Judah under the

Babylonians as we've talked about, about 130 years later. If we look at chapter 13 verses, let's go with just one through four and with the historical context understood, I think there's some fascinating application or likening, latter-day likening that I want to suggest and that sometimes I think we miss. For behold the Lord, the Lord of hosts doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay in the staff. Those are both things that provide support. Those are synonyms. The whole staff of bread, the whole stay of water, the mighty man, the man of war, the judge, the prophet, the prudent and the ancient, captain of fifty, the honorable man, the counselor, the cunning artificer, the eloquent orator, and I will give children unto them to be their princes and babes shall rule over them. Historically speaking, he's prophesying of exactly what's going to happen

when they're conquered by Assyria and then by Babylon. By the way, if you want to reference historically, 2 Kings 24, verse 14, this is what's going to happen. Historically, he carried away all Jerusalem and all the princes and all the mighty men of Valor, even 10,000 captives and all the craftsmen and smiths, none remains. They have the poorest sort of the people of the land. Well, so this poor that's left behind becomes a righteous remnant. And Isaiah loves to talk about the remnant, sometimes even like a tie, like 10% is left, but they are the poor. You might call them the innocent. They are those who have not oppressed their neighbors, but have probably been oppressed by the mighty. And I want you to think about two ways in which these are going to matter.

First to Nephi and then maybe to us as Latter-day Saints. So first of all, Nephi, when he gets to 2nd Nephi 2620, later on, he's going to talk about the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, they grind upon the faces of the poor." So he's going to care about that message and see that happening in the last days. But then look at this potential connection. Look at how the Lord opens Doctrine and Covenants and the way he talks about the last days. This is Doctrine and Covenants 1 verse 17, wherefore I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant, Joseph Smith Jr. That's 17, now 18, and also gave commandments to others that they should proclaim these things unto the world, and all this that it might be fulfilled which was written by the prophets,

the weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones." I want you to think of Isaiah 3 and the mighty and strong carried away and who is the righteous remnant? It's the poor babes shall lead them. Skipping to verse 23, that the fullness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple unto the ends of the world and before kings and rulers. Notice it's going to say, if you continue on through second Nephi 13 or Isaiah 3, it's going to say, it's going to be so bad that if this one guy who just has clothing, they're like, well, clearly you should be in charge. You've got clothing. You're doing well enough that you got a pair of clothes. Guess what? You're in charge now? Well, look how fascinating it is, particularly if you're going to make some connections with this idea

of priesthood authority or priesthood power being symbolized by clothing. And Isaiah does a lot with that and Joseph Smith does a lot with that. Joseph Smith, the child prophet, so to speak, called in the last days the weakest and the simplest, the most common of names, the farmer and who's being called forth, the weak and the simple are. Once again, we are living this story, Missionary sent out at age 18. Are you kidding me? And age 19? I mean, sometimes they're pretty confident themselves,

but usually they're pretty terrified. Like, really? I mean, I remember when I left the MTC and I got the MTC was pretty safe space for me. And then I got on an airplane. I was sitting next to some of them, like, Oh, no, I'm supposed to share the gospel with this guy. And I tried and he sort of rolled his eyes at me. And I was like, Ugh. And I tried and he sort of rolled his eyes at me and I was like, ugh, and I felt weak and simple. This is how God is going to proclaim his message in the last days, a child prophet. And what will that child who is called to lead them do? He will be given priesthood clothing by the Lord and he will clothe the other weak and

simple and then send them forth to the world to bless the world. We're going to hopefully bless spiritually with priesthood authority being spread throughout the world but also physically feeding the world as we've talked about already. Some who are listening may feel like that's a little bit of a stretch. Personally I think the Lord is building on that imagery of this righteous remnant, the weak and the simple, and this idea, and a child is going to be in charge of them. Well, what do we find in the last days?

Joseph Smith, the farmer prophet, the child prophet being called to lead and gather the weak and simple in the last days. Awesome. Sean, how would Isaiah's audience, his immediate audience, have taken chapter 13? You said earlier that his audience probably didn't envision the Salt Lake Temple even though it's a wonderful way to use that verse. What about chapter 13? We're seeing Joseph Smith here.

What would have Isaiah's audience have seen? And I think that's a really important question. Before we jump to the likening, the latterday Likening, it's really important to establish that ancient context. And I do think that ancient context, I gave that Second Kings 14, where Babylon actually does come and carry away all of the most powerful rows that could be a threat to them. They're going to carry them away. Who's left behind? It's the poor and the simple and they are so poor that they don't even have clothing. Man, a child is going to have to lead us because we don't have anybody else to lead us.

If you look at verse 4 of 2,513, I will give children unto them to be their princes. Babes shall rule over them. But this is the idea that all of the leadership has been carried away. And then if you look at verse 7, that's what I was referring to with clothing. In that day, Shalice, we're saying, I will not be a healer for in my house. There's neither bread nor clothing. Make me not a ruler of the people. And they're saying, oh, you've got clothing. You are in charge. But anciently, literally, they're so poor, they don't have clothing. That's what's going on. Anxiously.

And then this long list of the daughters of Zion. What am I supposed to take from this? Is that where we're going next? Yeah, we absolutely can go there. It's important to recognize that, first of all, Isaiah probably is critiquing certain behaviors, right? And one of the things I like about Isaiah is Isaiah will use a prostitute as an example of someone who breaks covenants because their sacred things are being used for monetary purposes. He's not critiquing the prostitute. He's critiquing the society that produces the prostitutes. What's often lost, of course, in these discussions is prostitutes exist because there are really terrible men who use prostitutes.

And Isaiah actually, he's critiquing a society that encourages these kinds of behaviors. So there's both women as a symbol, though, of the entire society and the sort of elevation of wealth and pomp and grandeur and appearances over substance both with the women and with the men but then he also begins to shift into if you look at the end verse 24 it shall come to pass instead of sweet smell there shall be stink instead of a girdle or rent sort of well-set hair baldness so now you have imagery of a conquering army and the Assyrians were known to shave people bald often to brand people to lead them away naked, burning instead of beauty.

Thy men shall fall by the sword, thy mighty and the war. Her gates, Jerusalem, this sort of feminine imagery. And by the way, those verses are super tough. Generations of gospel doctrine and seminary teachers are like, okay, let me help you understand what's going on here. If you were to get a different translation like the NRSV or the NIV, it will help you a lot. The Hebrew is really tough there. There's a record number of what are known as Hapex legamina, which is these Hebrew words that only show up once in the Bible. They're very hard to translate. There's this significant number of them right in that passage there. But over time, since the King James Version, as we get more and more ancient texts to do comparative kind of work, what those words mean, we've gotten better and better at translating those words. The NRSV or the NIV, something like that would help.

middle to the end of 13 are all about pride is going to come down. Pride will be your downfall. The cedars of Lebanon will fall. The oaks of Bishon, these huge trees are going to fall. And if you put your trust in lust and in stuff, maybe this list instead of calls and round tires like the moon and mufflers would be iPhones. Put your trust in cars, in AirPods, which I'm using right now. If you put your trust in those things, that is going to turn into kind of a slavery eventually. So would that be an okay way to liken Sean that pride will eventually be your downfall?

He does a lot and I like that you brought that out Hank. He does a lot with sort of the reversal of fortune here and he did lots of height imagery being reversed and later on he's going to use that again saying a forest being cut down. Yeah, I think sometimes historically this has been used to sort of produce modesty, hey dress modestly kinds of lessons and I prefer to see this as more he's talking about pride and external appearance and show off ishness. I just made a new word rather than the covenantal substance that is needed being kind to others not grinding upon the faces of the poor taking care of your covenantal community not using all of your substance to show off for others, so to speak. That applies equally, as we know, to men and women. And women often are an example of... It's a female word, obviously, for women, but Jerusalem, the word city in Hebrew, is feminine in the way the language works. So they act as a symbol for

all of the covenant people or for God's covenantal bride, His church. This isn't about women in Israel. This is about all of Israel. Yes. Although he's using images that they're probably familiar with to teach this lesson, but this is not a lesson for women. This is a lesson for God's covenant people. Yeah, I call it successive, excessive accessories. It's not about women. It's about trying to attract other lovers. It's about a loyalty to Christ and our loyalty to covenants. Coming up in part two of this episode.