Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - 2 Nephi 11-19 Part 2 • Dr. Shon D. Hopkin • Feb 26 - Mar 3 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

Dr. Shon Hopkin explores how Nephi and Isaiah teach Saints who God is and how it encourages them to come to Christ.YouTube: https://youtu.be/8m-kbU9gSg0Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFree PDF download of quotes from our New Testament episodes:https://followhim.co/product/finding-jesus-christ-in-the-newtestament-book/Free PDF download of quotes from our Old Testament episodes:https://followhim.co/product/finding-jesus-christ-in-the-old-testament/00:00 Part II–Dr. Shon Hopkin00:07 2 Nephi 13:27 or 2 Nephi 14:101:43 Prophetic authority02:51 2 Nephi 14:1 Eusebius, Jerome, and Aquinas04:11 Scripture and private interpretation06:42 2 Nephi 15:7 A song10:28 The story of a man with a vineyard11:38 Dr. Hopkin shares a story about a bad grape12:55 2 Nephi 15:8 The wealthy in the vineyard15:08 2 Nephi 15:10 Why crops fail17:42 2 Nephi 18-20 The heavy load of vanity20:00 2 Nephi 15:20 and Alma 25 Bad guys23:22 Prophetic likening25:25 2 Nephi 15:25 Justice or mercy28:38 2 Nephi 19:12 Hand stretched out30:28 2 Nephi 16 Isaiah’s calling33:02 Theophanies34:48 Isaiah is given a message37:12 2 Nephi 16:4 Smoke and symbolism40:24 2 Nephi 16:7-12 a literary unit42:15 2 Nephi: Ahaz, Pika, and firebrands45:14 2 Nephi 17:7 Judah will survive46:08 2 Nephi 17:14 A virgin as a sign, Jesus and Hezekiah49:01 Isaiah honors his wife52:00 Elder Holland on Isaiah’s wife and Mary53:09 Isaiah and baby names54:15 2 Nephi 17: 13 Immanuel–God is with us55:05 2 Nephi 19 God’s eyes are on Israel56:54 2 Nephi 19:2 Jesus and a Davidic king59:14 2 Nephi 18:6 A flood1:00:24 Dr. Shon Hopkin shares his testimony of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon1:04:28 End of Part II– Dr. Shon HopkinThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to part two with Dr. Sean Hopkins, 2nd Nephi chapters 11 through 19. That actually leads us to a really fascinating verse in 2nd Nephi 14 verse 1. We're sort of coming to the end of that middle stage and we've already talked about the book end, this sort of, hey, temples are going to be restored in the last days. But there's actually a really fascinating verse that in the Septuagint and in the JST, the way it looks at chapter divisions are actually, it's connected with the end of the apostasy and the covenant breaking of chapter three rather than as part of the restoration in chapter four or chapter 13, chapter 14. Even in the Isaiah

Commentaries, the non-Latter-day Saint Isaiah Commentaries that I work with, they include verse 1 with those apostate behaviors. And if you think of what happens in a society where all of many of the men are taken away by war, this is actually sometimes the consequences of war that seven women are going to lay hold upon one man. So, Sean, let me make sure I understand. So, chapter 14 verse 1 actually belongs as chapter 13 verse 27. You could say that, yes, exactly. It seems to go at the tail end of the previous. Those chapter divisions, of course, are often going to mess us up. I have, I don't know where I got this, that 14 is the last verse of Isaiah 3 in the Hebrew Bible, the German Bible, and in the JST.

Yeah, that follows the Septuagint's chapter divisions. That's exactly right. Because the mood change from one to two in 14 is drastic. Yeah. At times when the church was authorized by God, prophetically led practice of plural marriage, this verse was referenced in support of that. And I think prophets, when prophets are leading and they're asking Latter-day Saints to follow what the Lord has asked them to do, they can liken the scriptures in ways that I don't have authority to liken them.

But then I've heard some people say, ah, here's a clear indication that there will be some sort of a return to plural marriage someday. And I just think that is a non-authorized likening that's inappropriate and wrong. We follow what the Lord asks to do when he asks us to do it. So there's a likening that actually I prefer when he asks us to do it. So there's a likening that actually I prefer rather than that likening, although prophets have authority that I do not have to liken things. And that likening is actually modeled by early church fathers Eusebius, Jerome and Aquinas. Actually their likening was, let's see those seven women as the sort of the seven churches from the book of Revelation are representing God's covenant people and the one man is the Lord.

So let me read to you from a commentary that sort of digs into how Isaiah has been interpreted through the centuries. The one man in verse one and the branch of the Lord in verse two are one and the same, Christ, Eusebius, Jerome, and Aquinas all sought that way. According to another ancient Christian interpretation, the seven women or the seven churches nourished by the bread of the Holy Spirit and clothed in the garments of immortality. To me that has a much more immediate and broad application that as God begins to restore us, we begin to turn to the Lord and say, give us your name to take away our shame.

Again, we want to look first at the historical context, but then if we look for likenings in our day, I love that Christ-centered likening available to us. And with these likenings, let me give a quick word about this likening process because Isaiah often is seen as a code that you have to crack to understand, oh, he's actually telling us very specific things about the last days. And if this ancient empire equals this current country, that does not sound right. That does not sound correct. That kind of likening, I'm not saying it can't be done, but that is in the purview of prophets of God. Scripture is not for private interpretation in that way. The kind of likening that I train and we work on with my

students is likening that teaches the principles of covenantal gospel living that are found throughout the gospel and it's powerful. It supports the doctrines of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ but it does not try to find the hidden key to unlock the code. That's in the purview of prophets. I do not have authority to do that, nor do I think other members of the church have the authority to do that. Now, God could inspire us with some particular application in our own lives, but that would just be for the individual, not even for a gospel doctrine class. I'm preaching a little bit here. I actually think this is really important. Prophets are called to lead the church. Our likenings need to be in the zone where they

are strengthening and supporting the doctrines that have been taught from the beginning to the end of God's covenant plan. Sean, I'm glad you bring this up because it seems that Nephi and Jacob both are likening Isaiah to them, but they are also in authority. Nephi is the prophet. Jacob has been ordained as a priest. Absolutely. There's two levels of revelation.

One level of revelation is for me to make appropriate application in my gospel living in my life. Another level of revelation is to prophetic leaders who then can lead the entire community and Nephi and Jacob fit in that category as does President Nelson today. My likening, like the connection I shared between weak and simple ones, the Doctrine and Covenants 1 and Isaiah 3, that is showing the support for thematic connections that exist in the restoration of the gospel. But the Lord is the one who gave us doctrine of covenants 1, not me. So to see the connections, I think is powerful, the potential connections. And

then we also need to reaffirm understanding the historical context and not getting confused about that, I think is very helpful as you're trying to liken appropriately. Start with historical context and then you liken in the last days. Sometimes it can go the opposite direction. You see something taught in the last days and you see it mirrored in Isaiah or supported in Isaiah. That's fine too, but it's we're not the ones who have authority to do that. Awesome. Moving forward, Sean, I've heard that Isaiah 5 or Segeney 515 starts out with a pretty fun song. I think we talked about this, John, in our Isaiah episodes two years ago. So is that the case that I should be playing some music when I get to Segnify 15. This is really beautifully poetic language. Ashira, Shirath, Ladidi, Dodi, Lakarmu, Kerem, Naladidi, Naladidi, Kerem, Kerem, Kerem, Ben, Ben, Shaman.

All of these are sort of repetitive sounds that he's using. And if you think of Song of Solomon or Song of Songs to My Beloved, and he's using that kind of language here, this is you might say a love song, but it's a love song that goes awry. And then in verse 7, you have a really incredible play on words. So if we're in 2 Nephi 15 verse 7, look at the second half of that. He looked for judgment and behold oppression for righteousness but behold a cry. So judgment is mishpat. He wanted right a goodness or judgment. That's a good thing. Righteous judgment basically. He wanted mishpat but instead he got oppression which is mispach. By the way

that's a stronger sound. Mishpat is a stronger sound. Mish pach is a softer sound. Mish pach is a stronger sound. He wanted righteousness, sehakah, but instead he got a cry of distress, sehakah, with an ayin with a guttural in there, so to speak. Sehakah, but he got sehakah. So this is Isaiah the master of Hebrew language, really at some of his best right here. I'm glad you're saying this because we have Jesus saying greater the words of Isaiah and I think We miss something in the translation and there's maybe dozens of other ways that it's great But that's just one of those things. I'm glad you're bringing up. It's so fun to hear that in Hebrew mish Mishpat And let's do those two again. Mishpat and mispat. Sedeqah, righteousness and seakah is going to be a cry of distress.

I wanted righteousness, but instead you caused my people to utter a cry of distress. So think of he's talking to an abusive parent and I wanted you to love your children, but instead you did the opposite. You sort of tore them down. He's disappointed, deeply disappointed by this. Those verses, the song of the vineyard and by the way for Latter-day Saints, you're going to really be thinking, wow, this shows some similarities with Xenus's allegory in Jacob 5, which one came first and which one came second? I'm not sure when Zenus lives that's being quoted from in Jacob 5, but the themes show similarities. It's about God setting up this beautiful vineyard and working really hard to provide everything

they need and the people don't want what he's giving them. They want what's on the outside of the vineyard and they reject what he's giving them. They don't take care of the vineyard. I looked that it should bring forth grapes. It brought forth wild grapes. That sounds a lot like Jacob Five, doesn't it? If they don't want the hedge that protects the vineyard, he's trying to protect the vineyard, but you don't want that barrier against what's on the outside. Well, I'll tear it down, really. You're sort of tearing it down. Look at verse 6. It shall not be pruned or deep. You don't want my pruning. You don't want my digging, so I won't prune and dig. And then what do you get? Briars and thorns, which by the way is what Adam and Eve get when they leave the Garden of Eda.

He's dealing, working with some really powerful biblical imagery here. So the story is of this man owns a piece of land. He constructs a beautiful vineyard with a home and walls. And it's supposed to do these wonderful things, but then it, everything goes terrible because is it the vineyard itself? Yeah, the vineyard is really his people who he's trying to prune and the vineyard is the covenant people and they're going to bring forth wild grapes. And what's the wild grapes?

In horticulture or viticulture, I guess, is what we've got here. If that's not done appropriately, they have to be cultivated correctly. So if you think about pruning so that you don't get a bunch of small fruit that doesn't really produce anything, but rather some rich grapes or some rich fruit here, that's what we're talking about. So I wanted you to bring forth righteousness basically, and you brought me worthless. Wild grapes. Wild, worthless grapes. Terry Ball says, oh, Sheem.

Yes. They're worthless stinking things. It's not wild grapes, it's worse. It's worthless stinking things or something like that. Well, now early in my marriage, just in the first month or so, we had put some grapes up on the top of the fridge to eat later, and then they went bad up there, and they got sort of wrinkly and dusty, and my wife thought it'd be really funny to say, hey, Sean, close your eyes. I've got something for you. She's stuck one of those

now raisins in my mouth, and that story has shown up year after year after year that the trust is broken. You've had to work hard to restore the trust. But if you go to a vine, a grapevine, some of the grapes might be nice, but there's going to be years where they're not good or where there's portions of them that aren't good. And they look sort of shriveled and they rot away. So the message is I gave you incredible opportunity and you didn't take it. You did the exact opposite. If we're going to make New Testament connections, I'm the vine and you're the branches. There's some connections that can be made there.

There's other likenings or applications that can be made with. Well, what is that tower? What's the watch tower that's being set up there? There's a wine press that's there to get the fruit or the juice, that really valuable juice out of the grapes, but none of that is functioning in this case. We just stopped at verse seven, Sean. Verse eight, woe unto them that join house to house. Any thoughts on that? He's talking about really wealthy people who buy

all the land so they can put their dwelling space right in the middle and have all this open space and in the meantime, everybody is suffering without a place to dwell around them. If you were going to connect to apartment, there's probably ways in which apartment buildings could connect in a very sort of tangential way to that. But he's talking about not caring so much about gathering, gathering, gathering. I want more and more and more stuff for me. I want dominion. I want mastery. I want everything. I want all the things. And I'm going to let everyone starve by the wayside as I'm gathering the things for me. This is not how you build design community. It is how human beings tend

to act. We have a scarcity mentality that makes us want to get more and more and more so we can be as safe and then we have a competitive mentality and Isaiah is trying to push against those natural human, well the Lord is, and say that's not covenantal behavior. As we would use the language in our day, I want consecrated behavior from my covenant people. You get this really fun verse in verse 10, 10 acres of vineyard shall yield one bath and the seed of a Homer shall yield an Efa. 10 acres of a vineyard. If we're talking modern vineyards in California, 10 acres would produce about 3,500 gallons of wine or of grape juice. These 10 acres are producing 10.5 bushels or eight gallons. And so you have this very small portion and then 360 pounds of seed

is producing 36 pounds of produce. And notice you've got almost like this righteous remnant tithe kind of imagery. Instead of seed should produce all of this produce, you're getting a very limited portion instead of this abundance. As you try to get more and more, you're getting less and less out of it. So, verse 10 is, your crops will fail when you try to hoard and take away from everybody else, your crops eventually fail. Yes. Like Jesus is parable of the guy who gathers all this wealth and he's like, now I can finally rest and then he dies that day. he says, what was that all about? Basically.

I remember an old seminary video called treasures in heaven. I don't know if it was actual footage or if it's a recreation, but Brigham Young asks Lyman Johnson, whose kingdom are you trying to build? The Lords or Lyman Johnson's? That comes back to my mind at this point. Whose kingdom are you trying to build yours or the Lords? I just think it's ironic that they're reaping less than they sow in those ones that you read. You don't reap what you sow, you reap less.

And it's as you try to grasp things slip out of your fingers. Think of the Book of Mormon analogy of your weapons becoming slippery and your treasures becoming slippery. They're lost. In this chapter, you get five woes and three therefore. So this is the woes and you could divide those out as a covetous people in verses eight through ten versus eleven through seventeen a debauching people or you might a people wise in its own eyes, maybe pride mongers, and then 22 through 23, a justice perverting people or bribe mongers, if you will. Isaiah's got a sense of humor here.

If you look at verse 22, this is great imagery. Woe unto the mighty to drink wine and men of strength to mingle strong drinks. So these are valiant men. These are mighty men. And what are they mighty to do? Well, what are they lifting up? A big old flag. And this is like a bunch of guys sitting around a table with beer bellies talking about the glory days. These are mighty men. What are they good for? They're good to get drunk. They're good to drink together. And it's really fun imagery. Woe to those people. I like the NIV of this. It says, those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks. That's really fun. It's really fun imagery. Of course, for Latter-day Saints with the

word of wisdom, it is even more meaningful in our understanding of the world. There are important verses that are going to be important to Nephi in verse 20. Let me mention verse 18 first and then we'll read 20. Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity and sin as it were with a cart rope. So notice this idea of you are carrying around a heavy load and you're connected to it by your vanity. That's a King James Version translation that I'm working with there. But I think the imagery is really interesting that, oh, it's so heavy and I'm worn down, but I cannot lie.

If I'm going to let go of this, all I got to do is just open my hands. But first, I have to acknowledge that I am causing myself. So I've got to acknowledge my sinfulness. And then you just let go of the load. And then the second half sin, you're carrying around sin with a cart row. This is great imagery. This feels very Book of Mormon-esque that you're sort of wrapping yourselves up in chains because you refuse to acknowledge God who's trying to free you from those things. Jacob Marley. Hank, I mentioned that same connection in my book about Marley who is fettered by his past and vanity and Marley comes to warn him which I also wonder

Charles Dickens got the idea for maybe Lazarus who's asking or the Richmond asking Lazarus to go warn my brother so they don't come to a place like this well Marley gets to do that to Scrooge and he says your chain was this long seven Christmas Eve's, and you've labored on it says, oh, it is a ponderous chain, Ebenezer. That always reminds me of Marley. I wonder if Dickens got inspired by that idea. He was attached to it. Way down and you're attached to it now. Fascinating.

Now, I have to confess, every time John does a voice, I love it, but I always want it to end up being Barney. All right, John, do you think you could do it? Do you think you could do Jacob Marley as Barney Fye? Jacob Marley is Barney Fye. Well, I hear a chain was this long seven years ago. He've labored on it since. It's probably enough.

Good. That felt bad. And then of course, a very important verse for Latter-day Saints, for Nephi, he's going to talk about this. Woe unto them that call, this is verse 20, woe unto them that call evil good and good evil that put darkness for light and light for darkness that put bitter for sweet, sweet for bitter. So it's that turning upside down or confusing of things. I've heard Hank say before to groups, don't confuse your friends with your enemies. As I thought about that, I thought, boy, that happens a lot in the Book of Mormon. The people that follow Korahor, thinking he's a friend, the people that literally defend

King Noah and persecute Abinadi when it should be the opposite, you know, and how easy that is to do to get our friends and our enemies mixed up. There's a chapter in 3rd Nephi 3 where Gideon Hai tries to convince Laconeus he's the bad guy. I'm the good guy. You're the bad guy. You have taken away my rights. You have retained from my people their rights of government. I will avenge their wrongs. You have wronged them. You'll see that often with the apostates in the Book of Mormon. They'll flip it around. You're the bad guy. It's a real latter-day thing, verse 20.

It is. And it's always fascinating when you hear somebody making those claims and then someone who's insightful will push back and say, now wait a minute, you just reversed the reality here. You can see why Christ says greater the words of Isaiah. You need to study these things because they are applicable. I don't know has Isaiah ever been more applicable if you look at these kinds of verses. This is sort of how covenantal living and the challenges with covenantal living work. And this is Nephi's point. Wow. I am learning how to understand my life and how to have moral strength and certitude from Isaiah. Okay, there's a couple more things we should mention here in chapter 5 or second Nephi 15 before we move on. There is at the end this 26 through 30,

he will lift up an inside to the nations from far and will hiss into them from the end of the earth. And behold, they shall come with speed swiftly, none shall be weary nor stumble among them, none shall slumber nor sleep." Now, Elder LeGrand Richards is going to give a Latter-day Likening that is an inside of missionaries going and using airplanes and that kind of thing.

And look, it's describing trains. That's, I think, a Latter-day L that kind of thing. And look, it's describing trains. That's, I think, a latter-day likening of gathering. And actually, the Book of Mormon, that word hiss, it is to call attention. That could either be for something good or bad. So that latter-day gathering likening, I think, is totally fine there. Anciently, this particular particular in sign is going to be to call a Syria or Babylon and they're going to come so swiftly and this is a scattering kind of an image that's going on here in Isaiah's context, in Isaiah's day. And as a lot of these things we like that in sign word to always be positive.

It's powerful. That's what an in sign is. It calls people, It calls things. It gathers and in this case, it scatters. It's calling an army that's going to come and scatter. But that is part of the Lord's purposes and the way that he is organizing history for his covenantal people. There will be a scattering and then there will be a righteous remnant in the last days. Sean, let me ask you a question. We've talked about this a little bit before. I have Isaiah's original context, and then I have likening.

How should I see scripture then? Because it seems more flexible than a one-to-one meaning. I mean, Nephi does this, Jacob does it, even Matthew does it. He takes Old Testament scripture and likens them to the life of Jesus. There is such a long history of prophetic likening in exactly this kind of way. And what it does is it means that Isaiah is not a dusty tome that no longer applies to us, but under the tutelage of the Spirit and of prophetic leadership. It comes alive for God's covenant people, for Nephi, Lehi, Nephi's people, for us in the latter days.

And classrooms full of students studying Isaiah in the latter days, because it's alive for us, it's real for us, it speaks to us still today. I tell students, listen, we're gonna study the historical context, but as the spirit is trying to help you apply things and change and become more Christ-like in your life, as the spirit is working with you, I don't want my historical context to ever get in the way of what the spirit is trying to communicate with you. Actually, President Eyring said something that I found very powerful. He said, and he's

talking about Isaiah in the Book of Mormon, which is exactly what we're doing here, many are more skilled than I am at putting scriptures in their historic context. There are wonderful techniques of understanding metaphors, simile, and allegory to the scriptures. I hope you will learn as much about that as you can. In other words, that's good. Learn the historical context. But I hope you will learn one more thing. As you read Isaiah, and he's actually talking about Book of Mormon Isaiah there, try to believe that I, without worrying about the imagery, could take it directly to my heart as if the Lord were speaking to me. I will make you this promise about reading Isaiah in the Book of Mormon. You will be drawn to it as you understand that the Lord has embedded in it his message to you. Historical context is important and some of my friends might say no, that is the most important and if we were to discuss a little further

they'd also agree. Yeah, but application, what we're supposed to do with that today, that's more important. That matters more. That's more powerful. Now let me just dig in here on this with a verse that has been dear to many Latter-day Saints. Look at, it shows up for the first time. It's repeated a lot of times. Look at 25 verse 25, the last sentence. For all this, his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still." Now, so many of my students have had the Lord witness to them as they read that phrase, his hand is stretched out still. God's hand of loving, merciful invitation is stretched out towards you still. Now, if you dig into the context, what Isaiah seems to be saying is he is talking about until they repent, God's hand of

justice still hangs over them. So my students, if I'm not careful, they'll sort of, the light will go out a little bit and oh that's God's punishing hand? No. Let's just stick with this for a moment. I did a little bit of a scripture search and look at the way the stretched out hand or the stretched out arm is used. Most frequently it shows up in context of God bringing the Israelites out of Egypt. Exodus 6-6, I will redeem you with a stretched out arm and with great judgments. So he's going to save the righteous by bringing judgments upon their oppressors. Here's another one where it's a hand of invitation from Proverbs

1. Because I have called and you refused, I've stretched out my hand in no manner, that's a hand of invitation. You've refused it, but it's a hand of invitation. Doctrine and Commendance 136 is fascinating. 1st 22, I am he who led the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt using that Exodus imagery again. My arm is stretched out in the last days to save my people, Israel. That stretched out hand is God in justice protecting the righteous covenant people.

It's redeeming, it's saving. And for those who are repentantly turning to the Lord, I would never want to rob them of the sense that God's loving, merciful, forgiving hand is calling them to Him because it is. His hand isn't stretched out in punishment for all who are repentant and that is Isaiah's consistent message throughout the book. If you repent and return to the Lord, that is a hand stretched out calling you to him. If you don't repent, you can't ever find a time though where Isaiah is saying, hey, I'm going to be merciful to those who don't repent or God's going to be merciful to the unrepentant. That's not how

this works, but he is always merciful to the repentant. So I don't want to rob that imagery of its power that the Spirit is using in a student's life by saying, oh, but that's an angry hand, not a kind hand. I think that's not true, fundamentally untrue, even though historical context, that might be what's going on in that particular verse. Yeah, I think you're right on there, Sean. Chapter 19, verse 12, for all this, his anger is not turned away away but his hand is stretched out still in anger. Why? For the people turn not unto him. It's okay to see it that way that this is God saying no, I'm not stopping with the consequences. They're going to keep coming until you repent. But for a

teacher to say when a student says I love this verse because God is reaching out to us in mercy and for them to say, no, that's not. I like how you say you would rob them of that light that they have found in that verse. This is what we've said about historical context and likening. And sometimes we really, really are self-vaunting, prideful, and we do significant damage to others. I serve as a bishop. There's times that we do real damage and God is not saying, eh, it's all good. You act however you want and then you get the rewards because you want them. No, I'm looking for holiness of behavior and people treating each other with love, dignity, and respect. And my hand is stretched out

to you in your imperfection as you imperfectly strive to do that. He doesn't stop the consequences. They'll keep coming. He's like, those consequences are still on their way. I don't want to believe in a God who doesn't care about righteousness, who is like, yeah, it's all good, good, bad, it's all pretty much fine with me. That does not work for me. That view of reality, I don't know what's heaven, what's hell, what's any of this about if God is not actually saying there's value to doing what's right and there's an opposite value to not choosing to do what's right, to rejecting

truth. You think like Lehi. Eventually, you'll get to the point where God doesn't exist. Yeah, what's the point? Yeah. Yeah. So, Sean, we still have a couple more chapters and I don't want to short them. Let's keep going. We get to chapter 16, which is a very famous chapter of Isaiah getting his calling as a prophet. He's given us a couple of different introductory approaches to Isaiah and now this very powerful moment where honestly Isaiah is going to become, you might say, like Nephi, a tragic figure where God says, you are going to prophesy to this people and they are going to reject you. How long? Until their cities are laid waste. You're going to just

keep prophesying. Like Nephi has this vision and he knows how this is going to turn out. And then he gathers hope in the last days. Isaiah very similar. People are going to harden their hearts. There's this verse that often causes some discussion. This message, verse 10 of chapter 16, make the heart of this people fat, make their ears heavy, shut their eyes. When this shows up in Christ's quotations, also in the Septuagint, the direct causation is not there as strongly. One of the ways you could understand, certainly God has power to do what He chooses to do with His children. Joseph Smith always wanted to be really careful in the JST that we recognize

that God also honors agency, that our choices actually are very important. If we're going to pull those two things together, one way to understand that is the act of preaching will cause a response and that response will then reveal the hardened heart or may even harden the heart. As someone says, I choose to reject. So you're extending an invitation that causes people to either accept it or reject it. They can't just go on the same as they were before. And that message you might say could have the impact amongst the rebellious of hardening their hearts. Certainly, Isaiah is learning here your message is not going to be well received.

Robert Alling That makes sense. This story is an interesting one. He's invited into the presence of the Lord. He doesn't feel worthy. He says his lips are unclean. And then an angel takes a hot coal off an altar, puts it on his lips, which I can't imagine would be very comfortable. Comfortable. And then he seems ready to serve. Here am I. Send me. What are we supposed to make of this? I know the two of you as is often the case. You teach these things over and over again and then we talk about them and you let me talk about them. I'm sure you've got a lot of insights here. There is a prophetic call narrative or a thrown theophany narrative that often shows up and you can think of Lehi's experience, John's experience, John the Revelator,

Moses, Enoch and others. There's an introduction as we see here. Let's create the setting and in this case the setting is an ancient temple setting and he's probably not in the actual temple. He's probably in a heavenly temple where he sees God seated on a throne. Anciently that throne was an important image. They've got the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies that is God's throne, so to speak, is mercy seat. But today, when God shows up, we don't normally see God seated on a throne. God shows up in a standing position. That was already the case, by the way, in the book of Revelation. But Lehi sees him seated on a throne. Alma the Younger is going is going to say I thought I saw even as my father Lehi Saw God seated on a throne surrounded by concourse the angels

There's an introduction and then there's this throne theophany and a theophany is where you see the face of God Theo Pame it's a vision of God seated on a throne often called also the divine Confrontation God is trying to get you to do something You see Moses at the burning bush a similar experience here and Then the Kedushah or heavenly song you have this angelic host surrounding the throne of God praising God and As other biblical scholars have dug into this they say this is when the prophet is invited into the divine say, this is when the prophet is invited into the divine council and made a part of God's divine council. He's given a message. The prophet's like, wow, I am not good enough for this. And then God says, you are good enough because I'm calling you and making you good

enough. Think of Moses. How can I do this? And I sort of love the Prince of Egypt portrayal. I'm a man of stammering lips. And then the way Spielberg does it in that movie, who made your lips? Did not I now go? And then he sort of, now Moses, you know, and then he goes soft on him again. I sort of like that. Hey, I made you. What do you mean you can't do this? What do you mean you're too shy?

You're too weak. You're too busy. You're too this or that. I made you. I know what you can do. And in my power, you're too weak, you're too busy, you're too this or you're that. I made you, I know what you can do and in my power you can do this. Isaiah has this resisting moment and then God makes him worthy to stand in his presence and he gives him a message and then sends him forth. We'll notice is what happens with Lehi. He's given a book, I think it's Zechariah who gets the flying, he sees the flying scroll, you know, or flying roll in heaven that's sometimes joked about. And then John says, I ate it and it's sweet in my mouth, but bitter in my belly.

I've mentioned before, I think this is a prophecy of Taco Bell, maybe sweet in the mouth, bitter in the belly. Anyway, prophetic commission that you sent forth. Now there's more to say about this, but I want to just highlight to Latter-day Saints listening that this is what God is doing with you in our Latter-day temples. He is inviting you into the Divine Council to make you a prophetic lowercase p, a prophetic figure, one who understands, one who knows, one who is endowed with power, and then he sends you forth into the world to build a family,

to do missionary work and call others. But first, think of that prophetic vision of everything from the beginning to the end, God is giving us the prophetic experience and calling us as prophetesses and prophets to go forth and bless the give his message to the world. That message is the plan of salvation. It's the Book of Mormon. It is so many different things that he gives to us and then places a burden on us as prophetic figures who are going to lead in the world. So I think there's some really powerful imagery there. But we should probably go back and talk about some of these symbols just a little bit more. Well, I like the fact that the house was filled with smoke and the posts of the door moved

in verse 4. What could those symbols mean? You have the posts that hold that veil up or the posts of the temple and then God's might is shaking the space but Isaiah seeks to enter into the presence of God and angelic guides actually encourage him. They want him to come in, pass beyond the veil and enter into the presence of God because you are prepared to do so. I've heard some liken this to the Latter-day Saint experience of the sacrament that cleanses us through God's ordinances as we come humbly with broken heart and contrite spirit. You have God's train filling the temple, so you've got sacred clothing. That train often

symbolizes posterity. Like if it's a bridal train, then you're talking about posterity, disciples, descendants, a covenantal community. God's glorious feeling filling the temple. But that smoke, sorry to go back to your original prompt, John, is probably smoke from the altar of incense. I would also add that the altar of incense symbolizes prayer. This was the smoke of sins that symbolizes prayer and that prayer at the veil, that's a place of prayer at the veil that then prepares the high priest on the day of atonement, but in this case Isaiah to enter into the presence of God. If you think of the way this works in the New Testament, Zechariah is one of the priests who's been asked to give the daily prayer. He's sprinkled some of the blood there on the altar. For instance,

he's standing right in that spot where Isaiah is, right before the veil as he prays and the priests are outside the temple praying at the same time for God's blessings to be on Israel. That's the moment when the angel comes and stands right there in front of the veil. You've got angel stitched on the veil. God sends his message to that space right at the veil, that place of prayer before the veil. How are you going to enter into the presence of God? Well, in this case, God will descend among you. I really like that, Sean, how you said, it's not anything Isaiah is doing. He says, I'm unworthy.

I have unclean lips and the Lord is saying, I can fix that. I've got a thing. Yeah. I've got some sins and the Lord says, oh, really? I can help. I can help. And it might be a little painful. The live coal could be a little painful, but it'll work. I've read and talked about

these verses so many times. I've never actually thought about the physical pain of putting coal on your lips, right? Yeah, it might hurt a little bit to be cleansed. A little chapstick is not gonna help at that point. So, Sean, we're coming to the last three chapters today. We've kept you for a while and I honestly don't feel bad about it because that is the way to study Isaiah. It takes a while. It's a price you have to pay. So kudos to those who are still with us going through these chapters. What should we see in these last three chapters?

Do they fit together or should we separate them? No, I think they do fit together In fact, you might say that seven through twelve could be viewed as a literary unit Some wouldn't see it in precisely this way But the way that I think many see the way that seven through twelve holds together is Chapter seven is and eight are introducing this threat of the zero Ephraimite war. So here's where all of that historical context we gave you at the beginning is going to become really important. So here's where Israel, often called Ephraim by Isaiah, and Syria are joined together against Judah and they want Judah to help them rebel against Assyria and Ahaz

is afraid of them and they're like, we're going to wipe you out and put our own king on your throne and Isaiah is going to come, be commanded by the Lord to bring his son, Sharia Shuv, a remnant will return and meet Ahaz to try to strengthen his spine a little bit, to try to encourage him and say, no, if you'll trust in the Lord, he will be with you. So that's chapter seven and eight, nine and ten prophesy of the destruction. Hey, this threat of Syria and Israel is not going to last. You think it's a threat, it's not. Chapter ten, even Assyria, the big bad mighty empire of Assyria, is not going to last. And then from 10, it springs in 11 and 12 into this symbol of the gathering. Hey, your covenants, my covenant promises mean you are going to make it through these threats and survive.

And then it springs into this gathering sort of imagery in the last days. And you get what we would think of as a millennial song in Isaiah 12. 7 through 12 could be seen as a unit. Let's just do a little bit with 7, 8, and 9. Does that sound good? Yeah, that sounds fantastic. With our understanding, I think I can follow the storyline now, chapter 17. Came to pass in the days of Ahaz, the king of Judah. His father's name is Jothan. His father's name was Uzziah. He's the king of Judah, this Ahaz. Rezin, who's the king of Syria. Pika, the son of Ramalia, the king of Israel. So I've got three kings basically mentioned in verse 1.

Two of them, Rezin and Pika, want to go against Ahaz to war against him. So I'm guessing Judah, the whole kingdom of Judah. Yeah. Ahaz is terrified by this. So the Lord is going to say to Isaiah, hey, go meet Ahaz with Sharia Shoe in this location that's near the Fullers field. It's a washerman's field. It's where they would wash and clean the wool. It's a commonly known location in Isaiah's day. I have my opinions of where it is.

It's a commonly known location in Isaiah's day. And say this to Ahaz, take heed, be quiet, fear not, and either be faint-hearted. And this is one of the two places I want to pause in this chapter for the two tales of these smoking firebrands. I love that imagery, the smoking firebrand. So if you think of a firebrand, it's designed to give light, maybe heat. A smoking firebrand is about to go out. It's going to look very threatening and it's going to produce a lot of smoke that is problematic and makes it look really big, but there's no more fire. There's no more heat. Like it's

going to catch your attention, but don't pay attention to it. And I love pausing here with students and saying, what are the smoking fire brands in your life? What is it that's really you think, I'm never going to make it through this? I am going down. I will never survive this. Maybe a romantic relationship has come to a close. Something didn't turn out the way you thought it was going to. Maybe you've struggled with something in school. This is university we're talking about. Maybe there's been a mistake you've made in your life or something dumb you've done and then someone has made a big deal out of it or you're having to sort of pay some of the costs of that. You're in a bad place because of that. Those moments can feel like there's no way

to recover. But what he's saying here is hang in there. It looks really bad, but you're at the part where if you hang in there, you will come through this and it's not going to take you down unless you let it take you down. And I think all three of us certainly and everybody listening has had smoking firebrand moments and we're terrified of them. They are terrifying. They're scary. They're hard. They can leave some marks and some wounds and God's saying, hang in there. I will save you. I will bring a righteous remnant in you through this fire, so to speak. And then the Lord saying in verse 7, it's not going to happen. You are going to survive this. Absolutely. Well, then there's this really fun sequence where Isaiah says, Hey, ask for a sign. And A has

says, No, not me. I don't ask for signs. Well, I think we're sort of trained both as Latter-day Saints, but also as readers of the New Testament, that it's bad to ask for signs. I would just push back on that slightly. In Moroni 10, we are all asked, told to ask for a sign, pray and the Spirit will tell you if the book will, well, that's a sign, right? But it's the kind of sign that requires spiritual trust and maturity and that kind of thing. Usually yeah, we don't want to ask God for proof, but if God asks you to ask for proof, you do that.

And like when Ahas says, no, not me, I don't ask. And to me, this is producing an Isaiah and an I role. He's like, yeah, okay, as you're not going to listen to what I tell you anyway and you're great. Okay, God himself will give you a sign and this is the sign that he gives the very famous verse 14. The Lord himself shall give you a sign a virgin shall conceive and shall bear a son and shall call his name. Emmanuel, butter and honey shall he eat that he may know to refuse the evil to choose the good for before the child may know to refuse the evil to choose the good, for before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that thou

pourest shall be forsaken of both their kings." Now, obviously for us as Christians this becomes a powerful and the Gospel authors saw it as a very powerful reference to the birth of Jesus Christ who was born of Virgin, the Virgin Mother Mary. The original Hebrew, so the word virgin is in the Greek translation of the Septuagint that then the New Testament authors rely on. The Hebrew word there that Isaiah is using is Alma, which means a young woman, a young maiden, sometimes not married yet but could be a young married woman. So it does not necessarily have the implications, certainly not the set implications of a virgin. The reason I'm emphasizing this is because the most powerful application here absolutely is Christ. But there has to be an application, I think, in Ahaz's day. First of all, otherwise, it doesn't

make sense. And you might say, well, that's the kind of sign he gets, a sign that isn't going to be fulfilled for 700 years. And it is technically true by the time Jesus is born, those two kings are gone. That's not very helpful to Ahaz. And the question is, who is this Alma who's this young woman? And who is the child that's born? Hezekiah is a suggestion. One of the challenges with that is Hezekiah apparently would already be born at this point. But the reason some suggest that is because of Isaiah 9.6. It's very powerful.

A king, he'll be a prince of peace. Ah, that must be Hezekiah. It's Davidic, certainly this messianic sort of prophecy. I personally read this as Isaiah's wife. And by the way, if you go on to the next chapter, he talks about, and I went in under the prophetess and she conceived and bore a child. That's Mahir Shalil Hashbas. And I love this moment where Isaiah is talking to a king who is too afraid to have a strong response and he's saying, okay, A has, you're too afraid, but my wife is not too afraid. She is the sign and symbol of faith in the Lord that all will be okay.

She is willing to have children in the midst of this threat of destruction because she believes in the promises of the Lord. And at this moment when he confronts a king, I like this interpretation that who does Isaiah point to his wife, who he also calls the prophetess by the way. I believe Isaiah loved and honored his wife. And then that idea of Emmanuel and that the birth of that child is assembled, God is in this. It's going to be okay, God is with us. So to me, understanding that historical context, whether it's Hezekiah, whether it's Isaiah's child, whether it's some other woman, and then when that child is born, it's a symbol God is with us. Now think of Christ and the Virgin Mary under the threat of Rome and

an angel comes says, you're going to be the mother of the Son of God. And she, this young woman says, okay, I will do this. She doesn't bulk at this. And then part of the power here then is then we can carry that into our day when many are afraid to have families and children under the difficulties of our day. And those who trust in the Lord say, I will move forward in faith and we will have families. We will support families. If I'm an aunt or an uncle, I'm going to support my brothers and sisters family. I'm going to be a primary teacher and support families. We will not be afraid, but we will move forward. And I would submit every time a child is born and the spirit that comes with that childbirth is a witness of Emmanuel. God is with us. He's still sending his children to this earth. It's another sign. The story's not over. Don't be afraid. There's still in each one of you children I'm sending has a divine destiny and is a symbol and a sign. God is with us because of the central

fulfillment of that prophecy when Christ was born, who truly was God amongst us. To me, that becomes more powerful with the historical context rather than detracting from the prophecy of Christ. To me, I don't know if you can enhance the prophecy of Christ, but that's sort of the idea. I think it helps. It's one of those likening things where there was an original context and then Matthew uses it in a very appropriate way to liken it to the birth of Christ. Yeah. So then the question is what did Isaiah understand? What's in Isaiah's brain? Well, I'm not in Isaiah's brain to know if he's purposely giving a dual fulfillment prophecy or if God's giving it to him in a way that it will be understood that way or if later as Christ is born now we understand the more complete fulfillment of this

But there had to be an original fulfillment and then a likening fulfillment that comes in Christ's day I've really liked Donald Perry's this is a big picture way to look at it. Second Nephi 17, the Emanuel prophecy. Second Nephi 18, the first fulfillment, Ahar Shilal Hajbaz. And second Nephi 19, the later fulfillment, Jesus Christ, where we get foreign to us a child is born and to us the son is given. Oh, that's nice.

Yeah, Elder Holland says the same thing you said. He said, the most immediate meaning was probably focused on Isaiah's wife, a pure and good woman who brought forth the Son about this time. The child becoming a type and shadow of the greater later fulfillment of the prophecy that would be realized in the birth of Jesus Christ. I love that. There was an immediate fulfillment and there was a later fulfillment and that's just another way to read Isaiah. There can be dual meanings, dual fulfillments. And by the way, I do really believe that Isaiah loved and honored his wife. I love the way he calls her prophetess.

If this is the correct interpretation, which I think it is, but that it's his wife we're referring to, that he uses her as the great sign. And then he uses a lot of birth imagery and motherhood imagery throughout his writings and prophecies. And every time I read that, I think he had to have learned that from his wife. He's listening to his wife. He's paying attention. Maybe she's saying, hey, here's a good way you could say that. I don't know. Anyway, it feels that way as I read the book of Isaiah. So this other son that's born, Mahir Shala Hashbaz, his name is, according to the foot

notes here, destruction is imminent. Yes, here comes trouble. Can you hear that baby blessing? The name we have chosen for him is destruction is imminent. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the destruction, Sean? Well, so you've got the destruction both of Assyria and then later on a Babylon. But what you could say if you're going to broaden this out thematically is you have a gathering and a scattering two children. You've got a gathering name and a scattering name. And I don't know which you want to

be if you're on the football't know which you want to be if you're on the football field. Like you want to be the Sharia Shoe guard, you want to be the Mahir Shalil Hashmed. But both of them actually are in the Lord's divine plan. And so it's not like a good guy versus a bad guy. No, this is the plan. Because that scattering, as we as Latter-day Saints

understand it and know it, is crucial to get the preparation for then this gathering in the last days. Isaiah has two sons. One is named after the gathering, one is named after the scattering. That's a way to understand this. Unless he has a third son named Emmanuel, but I don't think so. I think Emmanuel is, if this interpretation is correct, it's that symbol God is with us. I don't think his son was actually named Emmanuel.

Okay. Well, in order to begin to bring this to a close, we've referred to some things in Isaiah 8, chapter 18, Israel and Syria. You're afraid of them, but they are going to be not a threat. Those two kings are going to disappear as a threat, and they do pretty quickly. By the way, I've got a point for just a moment. Look at 2 Nephi 18, verse 10. Take counsel together. It shall come to not. Speak the word. It shall not stand. And look at that phrase, for God is with us. Or in other words, Emmanuel. This sign follows through Isaiah's prophecy.

So you can see why I talked about these as a literary unit. And then if we go into chapter nine or 19, this now talking about Israel, and I love that the prophets continue to focus on the Northern Kingdom of Israel, even though they're going to be scattered and they're gonna disappear from history for centuries,

but God still cares about them. To the degree that, he is saying, hey, there's going to come a time, your vexation, if you look at chapter 19 verse 1, your vexation up in the north and what we think of as the Galilee, the land of Zebulun, the land of Naftali, these are tribal inheritances in the northern kingdom. It's a tough place because it's a crossroads of the nations. The Kingsway and Via Morris sort of go right through that area. And so you get a lot of foreign powers traveling through there. Megiddo, the city of Megiddo's in this valley now that the book of Revelation. Har Megiddo becomes a symbol of Armageddon because there's so much

violence there. And wow, you have really suffered, but in the place that has had darkness, verse 2, the people that walked in darkness have seen a great light, they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death upon them hath the light shine. Thou hast multiplied the nation and increased the joy. They joy before the, according to the joy in the harvest. How is this going to happen? And then it bursts joyously into this messianic prophecy. And even if this is, some would say, ah, it's not about Christ or Messiah. This is about a Davidic king. Well, okay, if that's Hezekiah, I don't know, and someone say, no, Hezekiah is a symbol that God is with him. But look at the way this is described. Unto us a child is born, and we're all hearing handles Messiah, of course. Unto us a son

is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, his name shall be called." And by the way, these two words should be paired, a wonderful counselor or a counselor of wonders who works wonders, a miracle working counselor, the mighty God. Another way to translate that, Ghebor El, God is a warrior or God is a mighty one, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. For Christians, we say, there it is. How else should we understand that verse? There are other ways of understanding it. But for me, as a Christian, understanding Christ in exactly these ways, and the Book of Mormon

pointing to Christ in exactly these ways, this just resonates with us. And I liked what you said, John, by the way, about Don Perry saying, hey, look, you've got the early fulfillment in chapter eight or eighteen, and then the Christ fulfillment in chapter nine or nineteen here. Yeah, I do hear the music and I see they capitalized proper names there. How do you understand that in another way? As a Davidic king, really? Yeah, the way that's understood, because that's so clear, like this son will be the mighty God. And the way I was just working on this in something else I'm working on with Isaiah. And for those who don't believe that's a prophecy of a Messianic king who will be God, they would say, no, that Messianic king, that Davidic king, is a symbol pointing to almost like Immanuel. God with us isn't the actual name, but it symbolizes that God is with us, that we have an everlasting Father, a mighty God, a Prince of Peace.

And that's fine. That's the way that's understood by some or maybe even by those who are not Christian, who are reading this verse and saying, what in the world could this mean? And for me as a Christian, I just think, no, a son is going to be born and that son will be the counselor of wonders, the mighty God, the everlasting father, and beautifully so, not a man of war but a prince of peace. That's wonderful. Sean, it reminds me of back in chapter 18. So we skip these verses. It's very similar. This is verse 6. You're refusing the waters of Shiloah. You're refusing this wonderful

counselor. So what's going to happen instead? Here comes Assyria as a flood. There's two options. You're going to get in a flood of the Assyrian army. And you know what, Hank? Shiloah, say that in Greek, is Shiloam. It's the temple of Shiloam, the pool of Shiloam, which is pretty cool because Jesus sends the man who was born blind down to that pool, those waters that go softly and he washes in it. That pool had some staying power, didn't it? You are rejecting your local water source that I've given you and saying it's not sufficient

for us. Well, what are you going to get? You're going to get the Euphrates. The mighty waters of Assyria are going to come like a flood. Don't reject the blessings. I trust in those. It's going to be okay if you trust in them. And while I'm saying this, I want Maharshalal Hajjbaz to stand next to me so that you can get the message. Right? Yeah. Oh, Sean, this has been so fun. I don't know about both of you, but this is my idea of fun going through and explaining and talking about and understanding scripture.

Sean, this is a great job. Yeah. And we could keep going, but we got to go to church Sunday. So, no, we get to go to church Sunday. For those of you who are still with us, come on to YouTube. Leave us a comment that says, I went the distance. I will tell the three of you a full way. Tell us where you're living and that you made it all the way through. So, Sean, as we come to a close here, tell our listeners what you think about this book. It's obvious that you've studied a little

bit of it. What do you think about the Book of Mormon? The Book of Mormon is pure, simple, and powerful to change lives. It has a depth to it that we have still not plumbed. There is more there that we can and will and must find in our quest for the Lord and to understand the gift that we've truly been given. The Book of Mormon has had a purifying and life-changing impact for me and has encouraged me to come to Christ. And then I want to echo something I said earlier about Isaiah. Isaiah teaches me who God is and it is so deeply rewarding and powerful to dig into Isaiah. Great are the words of Isaiah. Search them is what Christ says. I have been rewarded by that process and I need more. I'm learning more about Isaiah almost every day

actually. So I'm deeply grateful for both of those great gifts in my life. Absolutely wonderful. It has been a treat to have Dr. Sean Hopkins with us today. We wanna thank him for being here. We wanna thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And we always remember our wonderful founder, Steve Sorensen.

Join us next week. You're no longer scared. You're excited about more Isaiah chapters on Follow Him. Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode's transcript and show notes are available on our website, followhim.co. That's followhim.co. On our website, you'll also find our two books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free.

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