Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - 2 Nephi 31-33 Part 1 • Dr. Kerry Muhlestein • Mar 18 - Mar 24 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: March 13, 2024

What is baptism by fire? Dr. Kerry Muhlestein explores Nephi’s magnum opus about the doctrine of Jesus Christ, the power and gift of the Holy Ghost, and the power of sanctification.YouTube: https://youtu.be/ZK8_qqEoEDoApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/follow-him-a-come-follow-me-podcast/id1545433056Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFree PDF download of quotes from our New Testament episodes:https://followhim.co/product/finding-jesus-christ-in-the-newtestament-book/Free PDF download of quotes from our Old Testament episodes:https://followhim.co/product/finding-jesus-christ-in-the-old-testament/00:00 Part 1–Dr. Kerry Muhlestein00:43 What to expect in this episode01:36 Bio of Dr. Kerry Muhlestein02:27 This is the way 04:55 When did Nephi write07:05 Nephi’s last lecture08:08 A Pretest08:59 Magnifying scripture study skills10:19 2 Nephi 31:2 Doctrine of Christ11:56 2 Nephi 31:4 Baptism15:15 2 Nephi 31:10 Follow Him17:17 Baptism in the Old Testament 19:19 2 Nephi 31:10 Keep the commandments21:51 Water as symbol25:20 Change and sanctification26:42 2 Nephi 31:19 Faith in Christ is a process28:42 Like a rodeo30:35 2 Nephi 31:13 Tongue of angels32:09 The Beatitudes and the Holy Ghost as Comforter34:18 2 Nephi 32:27 Doctrine of Christ36:11 2 Nephi 32:15 The Godhead39:01 Jesus does the Father’s will39:54 2 Nephi 32:17 Reason for Nephi’s Vision41:20 Baptism by fire and water43:07 Baptize a bag of sand44:48 2 Nephi 25:24 Family of Christ and birth parallels48:41 2 Nephi 32 Dr. Muhlestein shares a story about a ward member50:34 President Oaks on being saved or born again53:36 2 Nephi 32:19-20 Press forward57:57 President Oaks “Scripture Reading and Revelation” and President Nelson “Hear Him”1:00:31 John shares a story about a fighter pilot 1:04:05 2 Nephi 32:4-5 Show and Tell1:05:11 President Nelson,  the Holy Ghost, and heart surgery1:09:52 The Holy Ghost is essential to enduring to the end1:12:48 End of Part 1 – Dr. Kerry MuhlesteinThanks to the follow HIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with my co-host, John, by the way, and our guest, Dr. Kerry Mielstein. John, I think you'll love the title of this week's lesson. It says, This is the Way. I actually changed mine with a little red pencil. This is, by the way, by the way. Didn't go through correlation. No, by the way, shows up in 2nd Nephi 32 twice and in 2nd Nephi 31. I have some markings in my scripture. Probably nobody else has. We might have to rename our podcast this week. This is By the Way. Yeah, I don't think that would pass either. Hey, Cary, we are in 2nd Nephi 31 through 33. What are we looking forward to today? What are we gonna do?

This is some of the most impactful doctrine and chapters in the Book of Mormon. And we're gonna see that in a lot of ways Nephi is summing up everything he learned from his vision. And he's gonna teach us some really fundamental things that then I hope that our audience for the rest of studying the Book of Mormon will keep their eye out because they're going to see these themes and we'll look at some of the times that it comes back really clearly, but you're going to find all sorts of other ways where it's a little less clear, but the themes, the things that Nephi teaches will just keep coming back to us as we get these

most important and fundamental doctrines of the Book of Mormon. Fantastic. I'm excited. These are chapters I've read many, many times, but I have a feeling we're going to see them in new ways today. John Kerry is not new to our podcast, but he might be new to a handful of listeners. So can you give us a brief introduction? Absolutely. We're so thrilled to have him back because we love Kerry Mielstein. He's a professor of ancient scripture's the author of several books, such as Learning to Love Isaiah. I have my copy right here. It really has a strong Book of Mormon component to it as well. There's a new book that he's written which talks about the covenant and relationship aspects of the Atonement. It's called The Easter Connection. He's also the host of the podcast The Scriptures Are Real where they do deep dives into topics from Come Follow Me,

and he hosts the TSAR website, where there are masterclasses, daily thoughts, articles, lectures, and a lot of other deep dive materials. Sometimes we scuba, sometimes we waterski on the top. Kerry does a deep dive. So come up for air, and we're glad to have you. Kerry, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. We hope all of our listeners will go check out The Scriptures Are Real and that website that you read, John. tsar.website.

Carrie, let's jump right into this is the way. I want to hear the Mandalorian music playing in the background. My daughter, Madeline, is a big Mandalorian fan, big Star Wars fan. So Maddie, if we can get the music played, that was for you. Here's the opening paragraph of the manual carry. And let's see where we want to go. Among Nephi's last recorded words, we find this declaration. The Lord commanded me and I must obey. This is a good summary of Nephi's life.

He tried to understand the will of God and courageously obeyed it. Whether that meant risking his life to get the brass plates from Laban, building a boat, crossing the sea, or faithfully teaching the doctrine of Christ with plainness and power, Nephi could speak persuasively of the need to press forward with a steadfastness in Christ. Of following the straight and narrow path which leads to eternal life, because that is the path he followed. He knew by experience that this path, though demanding at times, is also joyful, and that there is none other way, nor name given under heaven, whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. What a great opener. I don't know who the writer of this manual is, but man, they have a wonderful gift. Carrie, with that, how do you want to go about this?

Do we want to do an introduction or are we going to jump right into these verses? Let's set a little context. Then we're going to do a pretest. This is how Nephi wraps up his last lecture as it were. Let's review what 2nd Nephi has been. 2nd Nephi has been, it's wound up the storyline to begin with, but then it's been having his brother and Isaiah bear testimony of Christ. And then we get a couple of chapters, and that's what we've just finished of Nephi

talking about Isaiah's witness of Christ and covenant, both Jacob and Isaiah. They're focusing on covenant and Christ and Christ fulfilling the covenant. And then Nephi interprets that a little bit and then we get to the chapters right now, which is when Nephi is going to really clearly and plainly bear his own testimony of Christ. As I said, it's based in a lot of ways off of both his study of Isaiah and so on, but largely off of experiences that he had in his vision of the Tree of Life. We're going to see some of that language in there and him referring to that vision a few times. That's where we get his

bearing or teaching us about the doctrine of Christ as his final farewell message and his desire to really strongly bear testimony of Christ. Kerry, I've been thinking as we've been studying 1st and 2nd Nephi, we know from 2nd Nephi 5 that he wrote this story late in life because you mentioned he's still relying on that dream. Do you think a lot of this was written really close together? Do you feel like First Nifi 1, Sege Nifi 33 was a short time period of putting it together? I don't think we have enough data or information

to really tell, but my impression is once Nifi is, and this would fit in with his character, once Nifi is told, this is what he needs to do, he does it. So my guess would be we're not looking at a decade in the writing. It probably takes a while to write. This is pretty impressive stuff and he's carving it on metal, but the vision itself took place a long time before this. But I think you're right.

His rewriting of it couldn't have been that long before. And he's very intentional in the way he sets up the whole record, the soul small plates, first and second Nephi, whatever we'd like to call them. For example, I had on Noel Reynolds who talked about how he sees in 1 Nephi chapter 10, a couple of verses there, the theme of the entire plates. And he makes a pretty convincing argument that Nephi has intentionally crafted this to help us see that if we will ask God and then choose to follow what God tells us to do, and we're going to see that theme in what we're going to talk about today, we'll ask God what we should do and then do it. If we make the choice, we have those two choices, follow or not. But if we make

the choice to follow, then these tender mercies and these amazing things happen to us. So I think we will see that this is a pretty tightly themed and written work that seems to have been planned out from the beginning. And that also indicates that Nephi didn't drag this out over decades and decades. Yeah, Kerry, I think that's a different lens than maybe you take on it when you first read it thinking, Oh, it's a day by day journal. This took however many decades to write. When really, it was a one project thing. He's late in life, and he says, let me tell you my whole story, and you're right. I think the structure is there, the themes are there. We might forget First Nephi as we move into Second Nephi, but you're telling us, hey, look for the

dream way back in First Nephi 11 through 14, look for that in here. Yeah, and that theme of asking and following. I love what you've said. I think that you used the phrase last lecture. This is Nephi's just about to sign off. What's he going to give us? And not only the testimony of Christ, but I love how many times he's going to ask us to follow him. See what I did there. I just worked in the name of our podcast. Oh, that was really good, John. I'm planning on doing that as well.

Yeah. In case you're wondering. He tells us to follow him and he tells us how to follow him and what to do. And then signs off. And I think more than just a last lecture off the top of his head, this has been crafted and he stewed about this and thought about it. It's a great way to sign off. And at the same time, I would say, while it is carefully crafted, you still get, and these chapters are due today, or like 2nd Nephi 4 or something, this feeling of, this outburst of deep-seated feeling, desire. He may have carefully crafted it, but he is still

really feeling this as he writes this. It's coming from the very tender spots of his heart. Wonderful. Kari, what a great way to set that up. I'm glad we can look at it and think of it that way. And now maybe let's jump in. I'd like to start off with how I start my class and I'm going to ask you guys to guess what my students usually would respond because you probably have students who would usually respond the same way. I start with a pre-test and I say, okay, I'm going to write up on the board. You guys tell me what are the elements of the doctrine of Christ? Because this is where we get that phrase. It comes from 2nd Nephi 31 and we'll see

it comes from elsewhere in the scriptures, but this is where it's introduced. What would you guess they tell me when we say what are the elements of the doctrine of Christ? Now, I'm nervous. I know me too. We want you to respond the way your students would respond. What would they typically respond? It's probably the same way I'd respond. I think they'd go to Article of Faith 4, Faith, Repentance, Baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And then throw on Ender to the End. Some would throw on Ender to the End. Yeah. I think you're right. And while that is absolutely, no doubt, part of the doctrine of Christ. I think we are limiting what it is a little bit because we import article of faith for, which is also absolutely inspired and crucial. But we think, okay, that's the whole story. I want to go through a little bit of a scripture study skill. And I know we're all trying to magnify the way we can teach scripture study skills. I hope it

will help us see that there's a little bit more and some crucial elements that are more than faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, and enter to the end. As important as those are, I'm not belittling those. Those are still the core there, but there's some other core elements. What we're going to find is that Nephi uses a technique that is used by a lot of ancient writers, Israelites and elsewhere in the ancient Near East, that we will call inclusios. That's a phrase we often use to describe this. And it's when they say, at the beginning of something, here's what I'm talking about. And then they say at the end, okay, that's what I talked about. And so you know that everything in between is what they

talked about. It fits under that topic. We want to look for the Inclusios to begin with. We'll see if we can find those. And then we'll say, okay, now we need to make sure that we understand that everything in here is part of the Doctrine of Christ. And let's not leave it out. Look in the first couple of verses and tell me where does Nephi tell us he's going to teach us about the Doctrine of Christ? Kerry, I have it underlined in verse two, 2 Nephi 31 verse two. Is that the beginning? Yeah, that's where he introduces it. It doesn't take him long. Now that he's winding up, this is his topic. This is his message, and he's not going to vary from us. So you get verse 2, wherefore the things which I have written suffice with me, save. He's saying, I could be done except this is what I have to do. Save be a few words which I

must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ. Wherefore, I shall speak unto you plainly according to the plainest of my prophecy." That's the beginning in Clusio, telling us everything after this until I tell you I'm done. Everything after this is the doctrine of Christ. We're going to see that the last verse in chapter 31 is that ending in Clusio. Then in a little while we'll see he reopens it in 32. But verse 21, And then in a little while we'll see he reopens it in 32, but verse 21, and now, behold, my beloved brother, and this is the way, this is the John, by the way, and there is none other way, nor name given under heaven, whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. So notice how he's focusing on Christ so much there.

And now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ and the only and two doctrine of the father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost Which is one God without Amen. He's made it very very clear everything between verse 2 and verse 21 is the doctrine of Christ That's kind of given us our text to search through and see if we can look and identify What is the doctrine of Christ? I think we're gonna see some patterns that are Fantastic and it is going to be everything we talked about, but I hope a little bit more. If we jump back in then, verse 3 tells us a little bit more about how excited he is to tell us this and to do it plainly. Verse 4, we get out where

for. Because I'm going to speak at the doctrine of Christ and because it should be plain, that's what that where for tells us. It's linking those two things to what he's doing now. Because of all that, here's what I need you to do is basically what he's saying. I would that you should remember that I have spoken under you concerning the prophet, which the Lord showed unto me that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sense of the world. Immediately he's hearkening back to his vision. This is where he learned about this, is from his vision.

But he poses us a question in verse 5. Let's explore this together, the questions that he asks us. First of all, how much more need have we, this is in verse 5, how much more need have we been unholy to be baptized, yet even by water? I want you to know we have a theme of Christ being holy that's introduced, keep that in mind, and that we need to be baptized. But then he asks, I would ask of you, my beloved brother, and wherein the Lamb of God did fulfill all righteousness

in being baptized by water, no ye not that he was holy, but not withstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that according to the flesh, he humbleth himself before the Father and witnesses unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments. So it seems to me that he's telling us, first of all, if we want to answer question one,

we need to answer question two a little bit more. Question two is baptism, we say, is partially for having your sins washed away and being sanctified and joining the Church of the Lamb, as it were. Well, he is the Lamb. He has no sense to be washed away. So under our normal way of thinking about this, he has no need to be baptized. But there's an interesting irony here, and that irony is that if he hadn't been baptized, then he would have need to be baptized because his father has commanded everybody That they have to be baptized Christ would not be obedient if he weren't baptized

But the emphasis here is that Christ does his father's will He always always does his father's will and so he humbles himself and witnesses that he'll keep the commandments That's one of the emphases and we're going to see that's a theme that keeps coming up as we look at the Doctrine of Christ. That emphasizes all the more how much we need it because we aren't holy. We do have sins and we also need to be obedient. We also need to submit ourselves to the will of the Father. So we have this double need.

Yeah. He witnesses unto the Father and I would add even by his action, right? Not just necessarily his words. It's my actions, witness. Yeah, he's showeth. It's not just telling. I'm going to show you by witnessing unto the Father that I would be obedient to keeping his commandments. He's showing us not just do this, but have an obedient heart, heart that wants to do the will of the Father and shows us. When it says, witnesseth unto the Father, my mind went to the sacrament prayer and witness unto thee, O God, the eternal Father. We're showing him that when we take the emblems of the sacrament. Yeah, which is when we renew what we did at baptism. And that's

the powerful thing, and you mentioned in this Hank, one of the powerful things about baptism is that we bear witness by our actions. We become the symbol, we become the testimony. That's powerful for us. It's powerful that Christ did it. We can come back to some of these other verses, but let's just jump to verse 10 to talk about what John was just saying there. And he said unto the children of men, Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, how can we follow Jesus? Say we should be willing to keep the commandments of the Father. And then he's going to explain what those commandments are. So we'll come back to that. In many ways, this is the whole point of verses 4 through 10. The reason Nephi is telling us what he saw in the vision and what Christ did, because he's trying to teach us what you need to do is

Follow him. It's kind of a catchy phrase when you think about it follow him. I don't know if you That phrase jump that down Hank. Yeah But that really is what Nephi is trying to tell us here He begins his leading point it is about baptism baptism is definitely necessary leading point. It is about baptism. Baptism is definitely necessary. But in a way, baptism is Nephi's tool for showing us we need to emulate Christ. That's the key. We have to do whatever Christ did. And in this case, it's specifically baptism and then the other things that he'll talk about. The real emphasis is follow Christ. Christ is the exemplar. We have to do what he did if this is going to work for us.

Jared, this is, like you said earlier, a direct connection to His vision. Way back 1st Nephi 11, He saw the baptism of Christ. Which also Lehi and his dream did. We know He saw that as well. From the very beginning, I find that so powerful. From the beginning of the Nephite story, Lehi's dream is right there at the beginning and then Nephi's vision follows right after. And they are given what they need then that will still be Nephi's guiding star at the end of his life all these years later, whether they've set up a different civilization and everything else. At the very beginning, they were given the key elements that they needed. And it starts with follow Christ. We're also going to see this rod, the Word of God is another theme that is strong in this. We're also going to see this rod and the word of

God is another theme that is strong in this. So everything was given to them that they needed at the beginning, but I think Nephi's had a lifetime of trying to understand what he was taught when he was young. Hey, Kerry, could you talk about the fact that we're talking about baptism here during an Old Testament era at least and that the Book of Mormon seems to have baptism throughout, but we don't even see the word baptism in the King James Old Testament. We see washing. Could you talk about that a little bit?

There's a lot that we don't know about this. We can put together a couple little pieces of clues here and there. It's clear from the Restoration Scripture from the Book of Moses that baptism starts with Adam. So baptism is known about. Somewhere along the line as they have other washings introduced, it would seem that somehow the clarity of that gets lost. Now, I'm not sure how much that's the case because when we get to the New Testament story and you have John the Baptist, note the name, who's doing baptism, it's not like everyone saying, wow, that's new. That's different. That's weird. I don't know if they're just seeing this as a different ritual washing or if there

was some kind of understanding that just is never conveyed in the Old Testament or something, but clearly in the Old Testament, they don't have the understanding of baptism that we have. That's part of the importance of what Lehi and Nephi experience as they're leaving Jerusalem. And I would argue that as they're leaving Jerusalem, they're going to continue to live the lower law, live the law of Moses, but they're going to be given a higher law understanding or higher gospel understanding. And that starts with that, Lehi's dreams and Nephi's vision. Lehi has a few dreams that help him understand this and then this vision, so that as they are leaving, as they are beginning this,

they start to understand who Christ is in a different way and how to enter into that covenant with Him in a way that doesn't seem to be—we have no record of that being part of the culture that they've come from. Now, I think there is some memory somewhere, somehow, I don't know, and I based that on again. It was with Adam and it doesn't seem to be shocking with John, but there's zero evidence for it in the Old Testament. So they are clearly developing a different Christology and part of that is baptism as part of the covenant that is new or renewed or restored for them. That's excellent. I love what you're doing here. I'm looking at verse 10, save we shall

be willing to keep the commandments there. We can say, as you illustrated, oh yeah, Doctrine of Christ, faith, repentance, baptism, where's our heart in all of this? I'm thinking of sections 64, guys, the Lord requires the heart and a willing mind. Where's your heart? Are you willing to keep the commandments of the Father? And all that seems to be surrounding the Doctrine of Christ. Am I getting that? Absolutely. And I would say that's the beginning of the doctrine of Christ is that you need to have your will swallowed up in God's will. Jacob would say it, reconcile yourself to the will of God. Nephi expresses this in fact, just interviewing John Tanner going through Nephi's Psalms, 2 Nephi 4, and he talks about when we get to that part, make me to shake at the appearance of sin and he talks about how that's an evidence of Nephi wanting

to desire the same things God desires and stay away from the same thing God wants to stay away from. He wants to have his will swallowed up in God's will. Well that is Christ incarnate, right? If you think of Christ, that's what the Book of Mormon is going to teach us. Primary characteristic of Christ, his will is swallowed up in the Father's will. And I think that's where Nephi is starting here. Now that will lead us to baptism and all these other things as we'll see. But it has to start with our desire to follow Christ the way Christ followed the Father.

The whole idea of a change of heart is in here. Yes. Not just these actions of participating in these first ordinances, but this Get Your Heart Right with God. I love this. And I'd say that's the key difference. We're going to look at what was going on in Jerusalem when Lehi and Nephi leave. And you see this with Laman and Lemuel. Among many, not everyone, but among many, there's a pretty clear trend of thinking. We are doing what God asks us to do because we're going through these motions. We're offering sacrifices. We're keeping the Sabbath

Day. But we learn in Jeremiah and elsewhere. Well, they're also killing children. They're worshiping idols, all these kinds of things. But they feel like God will protect them. They're keeping the covenant because they're going through those outward motions. And Nephi and Lehi start trying to teach, no, it's more than that because they come to understand. You've got to submit your will and Jacob will join in on that as he gets older. If you've got to submit your will, whereas Laman and Lemia will say, they're not wicked and Jerusalem can't be destroyed. And that has to be at least partially relying on we're going through the motions.

And Nephi here at the beginning of the teaching is this, not just about motions. And we're going to see he comes back to it in verse 13, but it's not just about going through the motions. It's about your heart, wanting to desire what God desires. When I get questions about baptism in the Old Testament, I look to the ways that water has been an important symbol. You have Noah and his family saved by baptism. Moses gaining freedom for the people through the Red Sea. Joshua entering the Promised Land through the Jordan River. Elisha, doesn't he begin his ministry by passing through the Jordan? So it's, you know, baptism itself is there, but the symbolism of passing through the water to a new life is something that's frequently shown. And I think it's part of her. So in fact, we may or may not have time to get to it,

but one of the places I think you have the doctrine of Christ reiterated is at the end of Moses chapter 6, where God is teaching Adam. In there, he has the teaching that you are born through water blood in the Spirit, and then you have to be born again through water blood in the Spirit. And it's explicitly part of the doctrine of Christ in that iteration, and it is here. So I would agree again that this idea is part of being changed, as John was talking about. The water washes you away, and then the water washes the world away, and then the Holy Ghost will make you more godly. So we'll look at that as we go along, but I think that's absolutely part of it. Justification, sanctification. Yep, which are the words that are used in Moses 6

when we go through that iteration of the doctrine of Christ. That's exactly right. But let's keep going. In verse 10, he's told us you have to show that you're willing to follow Jesus, who is following God, and that's a trail that they're going to make explicit. Jesus follows God, we follow Jesus, therefore we are following God. That's something Christ has taught so many times, Book of Mormon and New Testament. But we have to do that by keeping the commandments. So then he says, and the Father said, Repentci, Repentci, and be baptized in the name of my beloved Son. That's the commandment.

That's going to be his point. You're not following God if you're not doing what he told us to do. And also the voice of the Son came into me saying, He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me, wherefore follow me and do the things which ye have seen me do." That's the reason for baptism. It's twofold here. It's because we want to do what God asks us to do, and that's what he asks us to do, and it's so that we can receive the Holy Ghost. And we're going to see the Holy Ghost as a huge part of the doctrine of Christ. Those are the key elements, at least the way Nephi is phrasing it here. And repentance is

certainly a part of that. We're going to see eventually they'll get into saying that you should believe as well. So faith is in there, but faith in all these iterations, or faith or belief, doesn't get mentioned as much as we would think. It's certainly part of it, but it's not the emphasis that we would guess. And then in verse 13, we get the part we were just talking about. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if you shall follow the Son with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, it has to be real. It has to be that your will really is swallowed up in God's will, or at least you're trying. That's what you want, even if you're starting with the desire to have your will really is swallowed up in God's will or at least you're trying. That's what you want

Even if you're starting with the desire to have your will change That's what God's asking then all of these other things can happen But if it's not with real intent then none of this actually works None of us have pure intent. No one is a hundred percent pure in their intent That's what this mortal probation is for and the atoning sacrifice of crisis for is to get us to that point We're not there yet, but if we're trying, if we're working on it, that's what he's looking for. Now, if your real desire is to become what you hope one day to become, instead of, like you said, going through the motions. Exactly. So you may sometimes be talking to God and actually in my

prayer this morning, this was something like, I'm praying for this and I want to be this. I know there's a part of me that doesn't. I really do. So help me. Help me get to where the whole of me wants that instead of just most of me or part of me wants that. This in those conversations where we're really genuine with God, no hypocrisy, that I think we have the chance for true change, true sanctification. Now, we sometimes try to cover our sins, don't we? Like, I don't want to talk about that. Let's not talk about that. Often to ourselves, we don't want to admit there's a part of me that really is carnal, fallen, devilish, whatever scriptural phrases you want to use.

We sometimes have to get to where we'll admit that to ourself, and then we have to talk to God about it. That's what Nephi's telling us anyway. that to ourselves and then we have to talk to God about it. That's what Nephi is telling us anyway. But when we do that with real intent, then we repent of our sins, witnessing under the Father. This witness is going to be a big thing that you're willing to take upon you the name of Christ by baptisms, becoming like Christ, taking the name upon us. We have to be willing to then eventually we actually have to do it. And how do we do that? Ye by following your Lord and Savior down into the water, according to His word, then shall you receive the Holy Ghost.

We want to talk about the Holy Ghost a bit here because this is the next bit that's going to be about the Holy Ghost. But I hope we can see this part about the willingness to follow is what will automatically lead. You don't get there without belief or faith. It's verse 19 that we'll finally see the word faith used. Without faith or belief, you don't get there without belief or faith. It's verse 19 that we'll finally see the word faith used. Without faith or belief, you don't get there, but you have to have this willingness to follow, and that's what's going to automatically lead you to repent. Well, if you want to repent, then of course you're going to want to be baptized and have those sins washed away. And then, of

course, you're going to receive the Holy Ghost, and that's going to start the next set of change. Wonderful. I want everything to be a process, and sometimes I've looked at this and I've thought developing faith in Christ is a process. Baptism is an event, but it's the beginning of the process of being born again. I can point to the day and date I was baptized, but the process of being born again is begun by a baptism. And now that I have the Holy Ghost, I can try to get my heart to be more willing, willing to keep the commandments like he's talking about here and like you're talking about.

Following the Holy Ghost is also a process and I feel like all these things we've talked about are ongoing processes that require us to be patient with ourselves because nobody gets there really quickly. Amen to that. I would agree with you and let's throw in just another little element. Baptism is an event, but remember the sacrament, we're renewing baptism. So every single week, except for general and state conference, we can renew our baptism. So that automatically makes it both an event and a process, which is exactly the same phrase I use when I teach about being born again. It's both an event and a process, or it's an event and a series of events. And then to try and be funny, I throw in with my students, it's a series of fortunate events.

But for those who are familiar with unfortunate events. So it is an event, but it's an event that has to be repeated again and again and again, so it's in a process as well. I remember Alma 5, he's saying, my brother in of the church, which means they've been baptized. Have you been born of God? Which means it's possible to be baptized and perhaps not to have been born again, which I find fascinating, which tells me this is a process and are you trending upward or trending the other way during this process?

Yeah, sometimes I feel like keeping covenants and following Christ and going to the Gospels a little bit like a rodeo. Every time you get thrown off the horse, are you going to get back on? That's really the question. Another way we could phrase that is, every week you mess up, are you going to come back Sunday and partake of that sacrament with real intent and say, I'm going to try again? And I think that's all God is asking of us. We're all going to fall. We're all going to get thrown off. The very best rodeo riders always get thrown. But the question is, are you going to get up and come back to him and try again? That's something we can do daily and weekly. And I love that it's arranged that way.

You don't use visual aids in sacrament reading, but I feel like the visual aid is right there at the sacrament table and the Lord's saying, you're going to need this again next week. Come back again and let's do this again. I'm so glad He does that. We don't dust off the table and put it in a storage part of the church and bring it out every Christmas and Easter, but every single week it's come back. Let's do this again and let's get back on the horse again. I like the rodeo analogy. That's really good. It's a beautiful thought. The idea that that he says yeah, I'll be here waiting for you next week Yeah, I'm always here waiting. Would it be fair to say the Lord says I want you in the celestial kingdom But you need to be celestial and I say something like well, how many tries do I get?

and he says As many as you need. Yeah, just keep coming back The answer is as long as it takes and that's different for each one of us. As long as it takes, as many tries as it takes. But the thing that ups our game as it were, if we're going to go with the rodeo metaphor, and I did a little bit of rodeo when I was a younger guy, so I understand this a little bit. Good luck staying on that horse if you don't have a rope to hold onto. That bronx going to throw you in seconds. You need something to hold onto. We're going to talk about a couple of things to hold on to. We're going to say it's the Word of God, and we're going to end up coming to a definition, maybe a different definition than we often have of the Word of God, but it's going to start right here. Once you've been baptized, you receive the Holy Ghost, yea, so I'm back in verse 13, then come with the baptism of fire. That's that sanctifying imagery and of the Holy Ghost, and then can you speak with the baptism of fire. That's that sanctifying imagery and of the Holy Ghost. And then, can you speak with the tongue of angels? That's a phrase that we're going to come back to

in 32, so we need to remember that. And shout praises under the Holy One of Israel. So my question that I'd really love to explore only for a second because we have so much to talk about, why would we start to shout praises to the Holy One of Israel when we have the tongue of angels, which apparently we have because we have the Holy Ghost with us. What is it about having the Holy Ghost with us that would cause us to shout praises to the Holy One of Israel? I don't know exactly what the answer is. Maybe it's that the Holy Ghost can help you clearly see who the Lord really is, right? Show you things as they really are. And once you see the tree for what it really is, you fall down and worship Him. I love that bringing the tree back in because think of the joy that Lehi had when he partook of

the fruit of the tree, which I think we fill to some degree when we're sanctified by the Holy Ghost. And let's make it clear that we're sanctified both by Christ and the Holy Ghost. And he brings that atoning blood of Christ into our souls. I love what you said, Hank, because it makes me stop and realize that those times where I have felt forgiveness are the times I am the most grateful for God sending His Son. When I've recognized that I needed forgiveness, and then I felt it, that's when I say, oh, thank you, God. Thank God for your Son, Jesus Christ.

That's when I do want to sing praises to that. I like that. Thank you. It reminds me that some have suggested that maybe the Beatitudes are a sequence. Blessed are the poor in spirit. Oh, I need help. I'm a sinner. Blessed are the meek. And when you come unto Christ and then suddenly blessed are the merciful. And when you have felt his mercy, as you said there, you're a lot more merciful with others because you realize, I needed that. We all need that. Then you're a peacemaker. All those things are because you have felt that forgiveness. And that's what I was thinking when you read that. Then you want to shout praises because you feel that confidence that you believe

Christ, not just believe in him. You believe Him. He can forgive you. And when you feel that, you want to shout praises. It changes the way you look at everybody else around you as well. Amen. Kerry, let me read to you a couple of thoughts and then have you comment on them and how they fit into what you're teaching us here. This is our friend, Anthony Sweatt. I've been on the podcast before.

Often when we teach and speak about the roles of the Holy Ghost, we overlook perhaps his most important function. He is the Comforter. Yes, gratefully he guides us. He testifies of eternal truth. All of those roles are very, very important. However, if we only teach these things, which in my experience is the most common way people discuss the Holy Ghost in church settings, I think we miss his most essential duty to deliver the blessings of the atonement of Jesus Christ into our lives. And then he shares a quote from Elder Christopherson, the gift of the Holy Ghost is the messenger of grace by which the blood of Christ is applied to take away our sins and sanctify us. And then, Kerry, Anthony shares a couple of quotes from President Eyring. This one, if you have felt the influence of the Holy Ghost during this day or even

this evening, you may take it as evidence that the atonement is working in your life. On another occasion, President Eyring said, reception of the Holy Ghost is the cleansing agent as the atonement purifies you. Kerry, can you help us understand the role of the Holy Ghost in being the vehicle to the atonement? Is that the way I might teach it? Yeah, absolutely. And let's touch on it now, and then I think we'll come back to it a few times, because I want to agree with this idea that there are a lot of roles that we need to focus on. Here's a spoiler alert for some of the things that we're going to do as we go along. We can look at several places in the Book of Mormon where we have the doctrine in Therene 527. It's called the Gospel of Christ, but the doctrine or the Gospel of

Christ taught to us. And we'll see that each one ends with an emphasis on the Holy Ghost, but each one talks about a different role of the Holy Ghost. It has a different part that it's emphasizing. That's wonderful because we're going to talk a few times about how important it is to have the Holy Ghost with us or the Spirit with us in all of these different ways. So one of those ways is the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost. But let's keep questioning mind mind, as it were, and keep exploring that because it's such a crucial topic, and I think in many ways it ends up being the emphasis. So this shows how good a student you are of the Scripture's Inc. It shows us that this is the emphasis of the Doctrine of Christ. So is it right if we just kind of keep rolling with that?

Dr. Justin Marchegiani We had a little teaser there. I'm excited to walk through it now. Dr. Justin Marchegiani We're gonna make sure everybody listens to the whole episode now so that they can get to the end. Yeah. We're going to have a little time spent on the Holy Ghost here, and this time it's going to be a little bit of a different emphasis, but we're going to see this emphasis repeated a number of times. So, verse 14,

But behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me. I don't remember him reporting this in his vision. I'm assuming that's where it took place and he just didn't get around to reporting it then. But anyway, unto me saying, after ye have repented of your sins and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, so there's that same doctrine that we've been talking about, by the baptism of water and have received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost and can speak with the new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels. And after this you should deny me it would have been better for you that you had not known me. So we know that part. Like once you have the

truth you need to act on it. You've left neutral ground forever. But now look at verse 15. And I heard a voice from the Father saying, yea the words of my beloved are true and faithful. So notice Christ has borne witness that we need to follow the Father, and then the Father bears witness that Christ is telling the truth. And I would assume, and we'll see this explicit in other iterations of the Gospel of Christ, or the Doctrine of Christ, that the Holy Ghost is bearing witness of all of that the whole time. We're getting a little preview here. We're going to see it elsewhere. I'm going to argue that part of the doctrine of Christ is that we're all entitled to two divine witnesses of every member of the Godhead. The Father and the Son will bear witness,

just now we're bearing witness of the Holy Ghost. We just read that. The Son and the Holy Ghost will bear witness of the Father, and the Father and the Holy Ghost will bear witness of the Son. We get two divine witnesses for every member of the Godhead, and they are unified in each other and testifying of each other. I think that is part of the doctrine of Christ. And then we can throw in there that, well, we need to have our will swallowed up so that we become unified like that, which can take you back to John 17 and things we talked about last year with the need for unification and that I explore in that book that you mentioned earlier, this idea of all of us becoming unified and connected through the Holy Ghost in Christ. It's interesting to me that the Book of Mormon from 1 Nephi to Moroni 10 have an understanding of Father, Son, Holy Ghost and maybe because of these prophets who wrote it. But I was looking with my class

the other day in the topical guide. There's only three references to the Father in the Old Testament, in the current King James Old Testament, and there are 85 in the New Testament. But in the Book of Mormon, Father, Son, Holy Ghost are referenced throughout. Dr. Justin Marchegiani You're right. Again, this is that coming to understand a higher understanding that they get as they leave Jerusalem. And this is going to be a key element. And I don't know what your experience is, but as I go through the Book of Mormon with all sorts of groups, we have this interesting thing where it's so clear that they're three,

but then we get times like with the Benediah or even we'll read a verse here in what Christ is saying where it talks about, they're just one God. The key to understanding that is exactly what we're looking at here. They are unified and Christ and the Holy Ghost submit their will to the Father so that it is as if they were the Father. They're three different beings, but in some ways they're one. And the Book of Mormon treats them that way and is less concerned with making these distinctions than we often are. Sometimes we're confused as we jump back and forth between weight three, weight one, what? Understanding this unity that is part of the doctrine of Christ. If we understand how core it is to our doctrine that they are fully

unified, then that makes some of these other passages make more sense to us. That's going back to the Gospel of John. Kerry, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. If you've heard me, you've heard the Father. In fact, I think it is the most common theme in the Gospel of John. Christ has defined that he only does the Father's will. So if you're accepting him, you're accepting the Father. If you know him, you know the Father. And he talks about that more than any other topic in the Gospel of John. And we're seeing it here. It is the doctrine of Christ. John. And we're seeing it here. It is the doctrine of Christ. And notice what he introduced at the end of verse 15 that will become a key element of this. If you receive these things from my beloved and you are true and faithful, he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. And now, then we get Nephi saying, and now my beloved brother, and I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God. So there's

that element again. He cannot be saved. Endurr into the end, but he's telling us exactly what we need to do in Endurr into the end. It's in following the example, but later he's going to teach us how to do that. Then we get in verse 17. I'm going to suggest this, that we get a reiteration. He's just done the doctrine of Christ for us, and he's going to do it again. This is typical Nephi or Isaiah fashion. If you're going to do it, you're going to do it twice, just to make sure people have it down. That repetition and emphasis is meaningful. It says, Wherefore do the things that I've told you I have seen your Lord and Redeemer should do? For this is the cause they've been shown

unto me. That's the whole reason I had this vision. It's the whole reason I've seen any of this is that you know how to follow Christ and that's what you need to do. And specifically that you might know the gate by which you should enter. For the gate by which you should enter is repentance and baptism by water. Then come at the remission of your sins by fire and the Holy Ghost. So notice that he says remission of sins comes by the Holy Ghost, the baptism of fire, which is the Holy Ghost. The symbolism is in baptism and washing it away. But the reality is when that atoning sacrifice is carried into your soul by the member of the Godhead that can enter into your soul, and that's the Holy Ghost. Speaking of repetition, I want you to repeat that because I talk with my students,

you just said it much better than I ever did. It seems that the Holy Ghost is the cleanser more than the water is the cleanser. And we've talked about how baptism by water and by fire is baptism. It's both of those. What did Joseph Smith say about without the Holy Ghost, it's half a baptism. But I want you to say that again, that was really interesting. So the water's the symbol, but go ahead.

Yeah, so we have all that symbolism in water, having your sins washed away, burying the old person, being born again, as we've just been talking about rising from the grave as a new person. So all the symbolism is there and there's certainly a power in that priesthood ordinance. But as you just said, it's not complete until you receive the Holy Ghost. And that is the member of the Godhead that can enter into your soul, right?

He's volunteered to not have a body until the very end so that he can interact with us in a different way. And part of that is his being able to enter into us and carry that atoning power of Christ, his blood, into our souls to really purify us, purge us, sanctify us. All these different words that we use, the symbolism of fire is applied to it because of that, the ability to just change. Fire transforms the state of something. You burn wood, it changes it. You skip the liquid state and you go from the solid to the gas. It changes the state of that. That's the symbolism of this fire. It's going to change you. So your sins, your mission of your sins and your change comes from the Holy Ghost. Now, I don't want to minimize baptism. It's absolutely a crucial part of this, but it's the beginning from the Holy Ghost. Now, I don't want to minimize baptism. It's absolutely a crucial part of this,

but it's the beginning, and the Holy Ghost is where it's leading to. I can see it both in the article of faith, baptism for the remission of sins, but in the scriptures, it looks a lot more to me. I haven't counted them up. That remission of sins comes by the Holy Ghost. So how does, is it both?

Is it, and that's how I've reconciled it in my mind that it's just both. They're together and a baptism is water and fire. Yeah, you have to be baptized by water and fire. The Hebrew phrase is shne'hem, both of them. It's just like you have to have both for this to really work. And I think that's exactly what we're learning here. It's a two-part process. Kerry, just to bring in a solid witness for what you're talking about here, Joseph Smith said, you might as well baptize a bag of sand as a man, if not done in the view of the remission of sins and getting of the Holy Ghost. Baptism by water is but half a baptism and is good for nothing

without the other half. That is the baptism of the Holy Ghost. That's a good backup witness for you there. We're not going to find a better witness for us. And again, we don't want to minimize baptism. This chapter makes it clear baptism is 100% crucial and necessary, not sufficient but necessary. And he goes on to talk about that in verse 18, right? You've entered in by the way and and the Father has witnessed, and the Holy Ghost has witnessed the Father and the Son. So you get this bearing witness of each other again, that if you'll fulfill that promise, then you'll receive the Holy Ghost. Verse 19, And now, my beloved brethren, after you've gotten into this straight narrow path, I would ask if all is done. Behold, I say unto you, Nay, for you have not come thus far,

save it wereby the word of Christ." Now we're going to have to keep that phrase in mind. "...with unshaken faith in him," so that's where we get our faith being explicitly mentioned, "...relined wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save, recognizing you and I will never merit a salvation on our own. We cannot merit it. There is one being who does merit it, and he allows us to write his coattails as it were. Since he merits it, we can go through his merits, but it's only through Christ. So, that absolutely focus on Christ again, and faith in him. Relying wholly. That's an important word. That's a high percentage word, as John likes to say. That's right. Yeah. This reminds me of our discussion in 2nd E.F.I. 2523 about after all we can do,

we have to rely on Christ's merits. Holy here, and I think only Merlin says, it's his merits that are mighty to say. And the way it's presented here, that's such an interesting paradox to so many others, but it's not to us. I know lots of my Christian friends who I love, they will say, well, you say you have to be baptized, so it's a work that's going to save you when really you have to rely fully on the merits of Christ. Well, here we have Nephi saying you have to be baptized so that you can wholly rely on the merits of Christ. It's part of wholly relying on the merits of Christ. It's part of wholly relying on the merits of Christ. It's entering into that covenant relationship with Him, allowing Him and the Holy Ghost to

change you. That is part of relying wholly on His merits. So the fact that you've got baptized isn't, okay, that was really hard for you to get baptized. So you did it. So now you deserve this. No, that's the process by which I start to rely and invite those merits into my life. We often speak of the symbolism of baptism as a death, burial, and resurrection, which I think we're right on there. Could you also say that the baptismal font can be like a womb where a baby is immersed in water and now I'm born. I'm born again. And I get a name. Why is baptism as important could be similar to why was my birth important?

Well, it started the whole thing off. Now I belong to someone. Dr. Justin Marchegiani That is so absolutely true and we see that in Moses chapter 6. We're God speaking to Adam and I assume it's Christ. I assume it's Jehovah there, but specifically says you're born physically this way and you're born again or born spiritually this way. And I think he ties in the similarity so that we will recognize how very real that rebirth. And he's talking specifically about baptism receiving the Holy Ghost, but then it's that process that we already talked about and that John highlighted so well. But that baptism is so literally a birth just like our physical birth was.

He emphatically makes that point there in Moses chapter 6 verses 59 and 60. Yeah, like when my kids are born, they're in our family now. Christ is almost saying, look, you're mine. Now, that day is important to me because now where I go, you go, pal, you're in my family. And that's what he's saying to us here. And we'll see him talking about it that way in a few verses later, where he talks about being, coming a child in that way. We better jump back into verse 20. This is one that, I mean, we've written songs about it and all sorts of stuff. Very important. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope. I love that phrase. You can have a happy hope because of these things.

And a love of God and of all men. So there's our covenant connection right there. We know baptism is how you enter into the covenant, but if we wanted to make it more specific, these are the two primary commandments in the covenant. Love God and love each other. Therefore, because you have to do that, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the Word of Christ." Now we're going to come back to that phrase in chapter 32. And in dirt of the end, behold, thus sayeth the Father, ye shall have eternal life. He's just given us the formula for eternal life. All these things that we've talked about, relying through your faith, swelling your will up in God's will, holy on the merits of Christ, baptism, repentance so that you

can be changed, and keep doing that in the way that we'll specifically look at in a minute. If you do that for your whole life, you'll have eternal life. Now, this phrase and during the end can be a tiring phrase, but I hope that it becomes less so as we specifically in Chapter 32, he tells us the way we need to do that. As we talk about in Dirt of the End, maybe I could just share a story. Since this happened, I've never been able to think of the phrase in Dirt of the End without thinking of this particular story if I could share it with you. A word I was in before the word I'm in now, I was the high priest group leader and my secretary was this guy.

He'd been a bishop before everyone, just this magnificent older gentleman. His name was Skippen. He's so fun, so vivacious, so uplifting. The problem was, and I never did figure out what caused this condition, but he had a condition where his lungs were slowly failing. He was always on oxygen. He could come to church for sacrament meeting. This is back when we did three hours with a canister, but the canister couldn't force air into his lungs enough that he could go more than an hour.

So he'd have to go home during the second hour to be on the machine that would force air into his lungs. Then he could come back for the third hour. He was slowly dying and we knew it. And it was sad, but still he was serving in fantastic, amazing ways and doing all sorts of things. Well, I moved out of that ward. hour and he was slowly dying and we knew it and it was sad but still he was serving in Fantastic amazing ways and doing all sorts of things. Well, I moved out of that word and when I went to Skip's funeral This is the story that my former bishop now the high priest group leader told about him He said that he was sitting visiting with skip who was still the secretary of the high priest group leadership

He was there to kind of say I think you're getting weak enough Maybe we should relieve you of your ministry and assignments. And he said he was getting in such little oxygen that he kept falling asleep during their conversation. He'd fall asleep for a second and wake back up. That's how weak he was because he was getting such little oxygen. And he was there to kind of convince him, can we relieve you of your ministry and assignments? And he said, Skip said, well, let me do it just one more month. And then let's talk about it again.

And then he died two days later. I hope people don't hear that and say, okay, well then I should never say, no, I can't do this because there may be circumstances where it is time to stop. And probably for him, it may have been wiser to have stopped, but you see where his heart was. He has so little oxygen, he can't stay awake, but he still wants to keep trying. That's enduring to keep trying. That's enduring to the end and it's inspiring to me. Now, can I keep trying?

Can you let me keep trying? Some of our listeners may have been asked by their friends and I have. So have you been saved? And a lot of us are hesitant to answer that because we have this endure to the end clause in our minds. We wanna go, well, not yet. I've got to endure to the end up to the fourth quarter. And I really appreciate something that President Oakes said, this was April, 1995, General Conference.

Then Elder Dalin H. Oakes said, I suggested the short answer to the question of whether a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been saved or born again must be a fervent yes. Our covenant relationship with our Savior puts us in that saved or born again condition, meant by those who ask this question.

To kind of paraphrase Stephen Robinson, he said, the question isn't really, am I going to make it? The question is, do I want to stay? So it was just a great way to put it, that you've entered the gate, you're on the path, you keep coming back to the sacrament table, you're in that saved or born again condition. That's so important because so often when we're asked that question, we hear them asking our definition of it rather than what they're actually asking, which is, has Christ entered into you? Has He changed you?

Are you a different person because of Christ? Yeah, the answer to that is yes. But we still have to endure to the end. Let's talk about how we endure to the end. So let's let Nephi wrap this up in verse 21. We've already looked at that where he says that this is the doctrine of Christ. But note how he says, again, the emphasis on Christ, there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ. And the only

and true doctrine, now note how even as he calls it the doctrine of Christ, he's going to reframe it just a little bit to get that unity element that we talked about that is part of the doctrine of Christ. This is the doctrine of Christ and the only true doctrine of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, which is one God without end. Amen. Now, isn't it interesting the one ordinance we do in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost is Baptism which has been such a focal point here that unity of the three and the witness of the three is incredibly important And I think Nephi thought he was done Once he'd said that and it is it's a beautiful powerful ending I can almost picture him getting up the next morning saying I thought I was done

But the spirits telling me I'm gonna say some more because I like to be plain. I like to make sure you get it. So, let me say some more so you can really get it. Verse 32, He reopens what the doctrine of crisis, and we don't have a beginning in Clusio. We do kind of have an end, but we don't have a beginning. But I think it's very clear because He says, well, okay, I see you're still pondering this. I'm going to explain it more. Yeah, it almost seems like, Kerry, where He he says you're pondering in your hearts concerning what you should do And it's like, ah, can I get you away from this checklist? This is what I have to do versus what do I need to be?

Versus 19 and 20 in the last chapter 2nd E5 31. Okay after you've gotten in the path now. What do you do? Verse 20 press forward and now he's addressing it again. Okay, let me say this again. You've wondered what in your hearts concerning that which you should do after you've entered in, by the way, in my dad's scriptures, there's a comma after in and he changed the small b do a capital B in my dad's scriptures says after you've entered in comma by the way, but you can see he's repeating that he answered it,

just like you said, in 19 and 20. Now, let me tell you one more time, that's exactly what he's doing. But the beautiful thing is that I think he's right. I'm so glad you added this clarification. You're right, he is going to teach us that it is what we have to be and what we be just leads into doing.

The emphasis isn't on the doing, it's the being, but how do you know what to do? Well, it's how what you become and he's going to teach us that here. So he says, verse 2, Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost? So here's this emphasis on the Holy Ghost, that you could speak with the tongue of angels. So remember he said that back in verse 13. And now, how could you speak with the tongue of angels? Save it, we're by the Holy Ghost. He's teaching us, this is what angels do. Angels have the Holy Ghost with

them, the Holy Ghost, and we learned this actually in like John 14 and 16. The Holy Ghost, like Christ, only says what the Father says. So if you're speaking with the Holy Ghost, you're speaking with the Father would speak. Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. That's what makes them speaking as if they're angels. And that may help us expand our definition of angels. He says, How could you speak, save it were by the Holy Ghost? Verse 3. Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. Wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Now, this is what we need to do is figure out the words of Christ That's what we have to feast on we press forward By feasting on the words of Christ and that's what the rod is if we're gonna go back to his vision The rod is the word of God or the word of Christ. You have to hold on to that

That's what's going to allow you to endure to the end Now if we were to ask most people and we said when we hear the rod word of God word of Christ They would say that's your scriptures. Some people would think to add in conference talks. I think that's, again, true but a subset. We're going to let Nephi define this for us. Because they speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, they speak the Word of Christ. Wherefore, I said, and you feast upon the words of Christ. For behold, now, here's an important phrase. The words of Christ will tell you all things. There's your high percentage word, John, that will tell you all things what you should do. Now, let's not stop there.

Wherefore now, after I have spoken these words, if you cannot understand them, it will be because you ask not neither do you not. Now, we've had a little bit of that in Sege. Nephi 31, but we'll see that in the other iterations of the Gospel of Christ, asking. And notice Nephi's vision starts because he's asking, he's pondering. Asking is a key part of knowing how to press forward. Prayer and asking. And you'll see it really emphasized here in chapter 32. If you're not getting it, it's because you ask not, either do you not. This is one of the themes of the entire set of small planes. Nephi says you have to ask, and to anyone that does ask, God will reveal it. He tells his brothers, have you asked?

And they say, no, he's continually trying to show the difference between those who ask and get an answer and do something, and those who don't ask, so they don't do what they should do. That's part of the theme of Nephi, and I think it's because he understands it as part of the doctrine of Christ. If you don't ask, you're not going to get anything, so you will perish in the darkness. Now, verse 5, Behold, again I say unto you that if you

will enter in by the way and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what you should do. Now, what was it that just a second ago he told us would show us all things what you should do. Now, what was it that just a second ago he told us would show us all things that we should do? Verse 3, it's the Word of Christ. In verse 5 he says it's the Holy Ghost. He's equating the two. He is telling us what the Word of Christ really is. It's whatever the Holy Ghost is teaching you. The scriptures are important, but it's because they allowed the Holy Ghost to reveal things to us. What we hear from President Nelson and the First Presidency in Cor is what we hear from President Nelson and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. and the First Pres. 1985 when he's fairly new in his calling. This is an article

in the enzyme in January of 1985 called Scripture Reading and Revelation. This is when they're trying to get everyone ready for a new Gospel doctrine here. And I'll just read a couple of parts from this. So this is Elder Oaks. What makes us different from most other Christians in the way we read and use the Bible and other scriptures are not the ultimate source of knowledge but what precedes the ultimate source. The ultimate knowledge comes by revelation. If we skip down, he says, the idea that scripture reading can lead to inspiration and revelation opens the door to the truth that a scripture is not limited to what it meant when it was written, but may also include what that scripture means to a reader today.

Even more, scripture reading may also lead to current revelation on whatever else the Lord wishes to communicate to the reader at that time. We do not overstate the point when we say that the scriptures can be a yrim and thummim to assist each of us to receive personal revelation. Let me read the next verse because this is where we get the Inclusio, verse 6. Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ. So what he's just told us basically, verses 1 through 5, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh,

and when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall you observe to do." I find that really interesting because that's the doctrine of Christ. Now, when Christ himself comes, maybe he'll tell you there's more. When he comes, he tells him the exact same thing. That's another spoiler alert. He has ended this whole Nephi's version of telling us the doctrine of Christ. He's ended it by saying, if you are going to endure to the end, you have to have the Holy Ghost with you to tell you what to do. That's the being part. You have to be the kind of person who's had your will swallowed up in

God's will so that God will speak to you, you'll listen and act on it. But you have to have that revelation. In my view, the way Nephi is writing about it, the Word of Christ is what we learn from the Holy Ghost as we study the Scriptures, as we listen to general conference, as we are listening to things in sacrament meeting, as we are partaking of the sacrament. Whatever the Spirit is telling you, that's the Word of God or the Word of Christ. That's what we have to be doing to endure to the end is following the promptings of the Spirit. Or in other words, President Nelson might put it, we have to hear him.

I love that the words of Christ will tell the Holy Ghost will show. It looks like show and tell, which is a phrase that we've all grown up with. I have a friend, a hero of mine, his name is Tad Derrick grew up in your neck of the woods in St. George, Hank. He was a mission president in Pennsylvania. He was a fighter pilot in Vietnam, and he said, I had a new pilot whose name was John, and I told him, when we come off this target, don't forget to jink. And to jink means to make your path erratic so that a gunner can't just shoot into your path, because your path is all over the place. He said this wingman, John, forgot to jink and he got his wing shot up, he caught on fire.

His radio was out, he gave him hand signals, I've got to eject. So he ejected, parachuted down into the Mekong River. Brother Derek says, I'm on the radio saying, I need a rescue helicopter right now. I've got a down pilot in the water. They said, we don't have a rescue anywhere nearby. We've got a Huey gunship 20 minutes out.

And brother Derek says, send it. He's circling overhead and then something that just made his heart stop. These four boats turned toward this down pilot in the water. Started moving toward him and he's like, Oh no, they could be Viet Cong running guns up the river. They could be the enemy. They could be innocent fisherman He got back on the radio and called command and said I've got four boats could be hostile Turning towards my wingman in the water. What do I do? And they said use your discretion He said the only thing I could think I've got to pray at Heavenly Father

I don't want to kill innocent fisherman, but I've got to save John. What do I do? I needed an answer immediately I got an answer immediately and the answer was you don't need to kill anyone you can scare them away He said I almost forgot I was in a fighter came down load about mass-high level towards the closest boat and just pulled up Right next to him and he said when I looked back, I said, that was awesome, Heavenly Father. Back to the three other boats and they all backed off away from this wingman. And then finally this Huey gunship shows up. The Huey gunship doesn't have a hoist. The only way they can think this pilot gets down to water level and his gunner and he says,

my pilot was 6'2", 190 pounds. This gunner is probably 5'6", 140. They chose small guys on purpose to be light and he said he got out on the skid and he grabbed this soaking wet 190 pound pilot with his elbow and threw him into the back of the helicopter. They both got medals, the chopper pilot and the gunner for rescuing this pilot. But when they got back to base, he said to him, don't forget to jink. He told him before. But the part I loved about the story was that he needed an answer right away. And God told him right away what to do.

And it reminds me of a statement of Elder Bruce C. Hayfun that we've had on the podcast. He said, once the key to spiritual guidance is not how long you pray or what words you say or what steps of prayer you follow. The key to spiritual guidance is one word, worthiness. Tad Derrick was worthy and the words of Christ, the Holy Ghost showed him what to do. I always think of that story when I see these verses and I think of my salute to brother Derrick, that F-100 pilot in Vietnam for being ready in that moment to hear the Holy Ghost tell him what to do. John, that is a fantastic story and it brings up a great question that Kerry, maybe you can comment on. Verse 3, the words of Christ will tell you all things what you should do. Verse 5, you will receive the Holy Ghost. It will show unto you all things that you should do. You equated these two. So what is this about?

John said, show and tell. Do you see a difference? Yes and no is what I'll say. How's that? Schneeham again, both of them. It's going to show or tell all things that he's making an equation here. And I think it is the Holy Ghost. But we also know that revelation doesn't always come the same way. It will come to different people in different ways and to the same person in different ways. I personally have had sometimes when words have literally come to my mind. There have been a few times, and it sounds like in this story, words came to mind. But I've also had times where I don't know that I'm saying I'm seeing a vision, but I can see. Well, I've had dreams where I've seen some things, but sometimes you can see how this is going to go or what you need to do. It's almost like God speaks in your

mind, sometimes in your heart. There are all sorts of ways that the revelation can come. And that story where President Nelson is doing surgery on a heart, yet even as he's holding that heart in his hand, he doesn't know how he's supposed to solve this. He didn't want to do up but the Spirit told him to do it and so on. And then he heard something tell him, reduce the circumference. Reduce the circumference. He heard something tell him that, but he still didn't know how to do it. Then he saw what he needed to do and the way he needed to plead it, and he followed what he saw. So that's an example where he was both shown and told. Sometimes it's one,

sometimes it's the other. Revelation happens in a lot of different ways and perhaps that's what Nephi is getting at here, but I think that we can put it another way. The Word of Christ or the Holy Ghost will communicate in several different ways all things that you should do. We also have to be clear sometimes he waits and sometimes he tells you, you need to work on this on your own a little bit, but sooner or later, you're going to know that what you're doing is the right way or not. And so on, that's part of this showing or being told all things you should do. Kerry, for those who don't know what story we're mentioning,

I'm going to read President Nelson telling this story. This is April 2003 General Conference. You can also get it in his new book, Heart of the Matter. Oh, okay. He says, many of us have had experiences with the sweet power of prayer. One of mine was shared with a stake patriarch from Southern Utah. I first met him in my medical office more than 40 years ago during the early pioneering days of surgery of the heart. This saintly soul suffered much because of a failing heart. He pleaded for help, thinking that his condition resulted from a damaged but repairable valve

in his heart. Extensive evaluation revealed that he had two faulty valves. One could be helped surgically, the other could not. Thus an operation was not advised. He received this news with deep disappointment. Subsequent visits ended with the same advice. Finally, in desperation, he spoke to me with considerable emotion. Dr. Nelson, I have prayed for help and have been directed to you.

The Lord will not reveal to me how to repair that second valve, but He can reveal it to you. Your mind is so prepared. If you will operate on me, the Lord will make it known to you what to do. Please perform the operation that I need and pray for the help that you need. I've often told people, never say that to someone. If you will operate on me, the Lord will show you what to do. If you have a mission companion, don't say that to him. His great faith, President Nelson says, had a profound effect on me. How could I turn him away? Following a fervent prayer together, I agreed to try.

In preparing for that fateful day, I prayed over and over again, but still did not know what to do for his leaking tricuspid valve. Even as the operation commenced, my assistant asked, what are you going to do for that? I said, I do not know. We began the operation. After relieving the obstruction of the first valve, we exposed the second valve. We found it to be intact, but so badly dilated that it could no longer function as it should. While examining this valve, a message was distinctly impressed upon my mind. Reduce the circumference of the ring. I announced that

message to my assistant. The valve tissue will be sufficient if we can effectively reduce the ring towards its normal size. How? We could not apply a belt as one would use to tighten the waist of trousers. We could not squeeze with a strap as one would cinch a saddle on a horse. Then a picture came vividly to my mind, showing how the stitches could be placed to make a pleat here and a tuck there to accomplish the desired objective. I still remember that mental image complete with dotted lines, where sutures should be placed. The repair was completed as diagrammed in my mind. We tested the valve and found the leak to be reduced remarkably.

My assistant said, it's a miracle. I responded. It's an answer to prayer. and said, it's a miracle. I responded. It's an answer to prayer. What a story that ties right in, I will tell you and show you. And you know what I love about this? This is not institutional revelation to a prophet. This is every individual can be directed in his life. You're a fighter pilot, you're a surgeon, you're a teenager. You can have help. That's what I love about this whole idea is he's talking to individuals. It's not just that you can have help. It's that you must have, right? Nephi is telling us there's only one way to endure to the end and that's to have the Holy Ghost with you, to tell you or show you everything you need to do.

You're right on there, Kerry. It says it will show you, not it might. The Holy Ghost will show you. My friend Phil Abbott pointed out the difference here between show and tell. I'll tell you, it really impacted me because personally, I see things in my mind more so than I hear words. I know some people, it's different. They hear words coming to their mind.

But I can tell you many, many times, and I'm grateful that Phil pointed this out to me, because all of a sudden I realize I'm receiving almost constant communication from the Holy Ghost. I will be preparing lessons, and I can see that lesson playing out in my mind. I'll be thinking of ministering. And I don't hear words go minister to this family, but I see myself walking up to their door. I realized when Phil pointed that out, it's tell, yes, but sometimes it will be words, but show. You might get that mental image of you following through on a prompting. I wonder if any listeners out there would think, yeah, that's me too.

I'll tell you another way that happens for me, and it may be harder for it to happen in the day where we read our scriptures on the phones, but I have a number of times had just the picture of a verse that I know in my scriptures, and I can suddenly picture where it is on the page and What it's about and so I know how to turn to it and find it and this is what I need to do I don't know how that would work on my phone But it works when I get these pictures of my physical scriptures. Have you had that experience? Absolutely I always remember that's my problem is I can't remember the reference, but it's in the lower of the second column in the page And sometimes it just comes to you like you can see it and sometimes I have heard not out loud

But in my head I've heard voices a couple times right? Well, I guess that's a dangerous thing to say on air I hear first voices, but you know what I mean God speaks to us in a lot of ways now Coming up in part two of this episode, that stake president said, okay, President Packer, you keep saying we need to have the spirit to direct us in all these things. What do we need to do to make sure we have the spirit with us? And President Packer's answer was two words.