Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Christmas Part 1 : Brother Bradley R. Wilcox

Episode Date: December 18, 2021

Merry Christmas! Dr. Brad Wilcox discusses "The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles," which proclaims that Jesus is alive, resurrected, and the document was presented in the year 2000 as a sacred testimony of the literal Son of God.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/episodesFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive ProducersDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsKrystal Roberts: French TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith and I'm John by the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh, we want to learn and laugh with you. As together we follow him. Hello everyone and Merry Christmas. Welcome to Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I am here with my Jolly co-host, John, by the way.

I love Jolly ranchers. Thank you. You are Jolly. You are Jolly. It is Christmas here at Follow Him. And we want to wish everybody happy holidays. Merry Christmas to you. And I knew there was one guest that would make this Christmas follow him episode just perfect. He was actually born on

Christmas himself. Tell us, tell us John who we have with us. Yes, I'm so excited to have Dr. Bradley Wilcox back with us. Brother Wilcox, our friend, and I was excited to have him on Christmas. Brad wrote a little book called Because of the Messiah in a manger. And so we thought it'd be perfect to have Brad. And many of you have already heard him. I'm just going to read his bio again, a short one in the back of this book. Brad Wilcox is an associate professor in the Department of Ancient Scripture at Brigham Young University, where he also enjoys teaching at Campus Education Week, especially for youth. Now they're going to call that FSY. He speaks at time out for

women events, is the author of the Continuous Atonement, the Continuous Conversion, the Seven Day Christian, the BYU devotional, his grace is sufficient. I have my students watch that for extra credit. In 2018, his book changed through his grace, received the Harvey B. Susan Eastern Black Outstanding Publication Award for the LDS Scholarship, and our listeners know who Susan Eastern Black is too. As a young man, Brad served his mission in Chile, and in 2003 2003 returned to that country to preside over the Chile Santiago East Mission for three years. Brad, tell us the difference between Chile and Chile. Am I saying that right? Well, in Spanish, they say Chile and in English, we say Chile. So depends on whether you're

speaking English or Spanish. It's a great place though. I was excited when I heard that this podcast is ranked number four in the country of Chile for Christian podcasts. And that's exciting to me because it's not even being translated into Spanish. So that means people are listening to it in English and getting the Spanish transcript. But it's exciting to me to think that some of the friends that I have there, some of our dear friends in Chile, are able to listen to this podcast. So if you're there in Chile, Feliz Navivá,

que Dios les bendiga, que tengan un anionuevo muy feliz. He said something beautiful there. Thank you so much, Brad. He said something beautiful there. Thank you so much, Brad. No idea what you said. So Brad had served on the Sunday School General Board and he is now the second counselor in the Young Men's General Presidency. And a lot of us listening will remember his talk in this just the past general conference at the time of this recording. Worthiness is not flawlessness and just a beautiful talk.

So we love you Brad and love so much having you back. Well, it's wonderful to be with you, especially at Christmas. Now, before we get into our lesson, Brad, I have to ask about having a birthday on Christmas. Tell us about, tell us about your childhood and tell us what that was like. Did you just think of the whole world was celebrating? For you. Yeah, my mom and dad just

hang a sign in our house that said, Happy Birthday to Jesus and Brad. So I always felt like I was in good company. My mom is the one that said how my birth certainly changed her views of Christmas. She said, you know, she'd always grown up with these beautiful, manger scenes and Mary and her blue robe. And she says, boy, having you on Christmas, sure, sure blew that image for me. She said, I realized that Mary was certainly not there serenely, you know, pondering Mary was having a baby and that her blue robe certainly wasn't nice and clean. My mom went into labor on the 24th and then I was born on the 25th and she said, boy, she said, I suddenly the whole nativity scene took on new meaning for me for sure.

And she said one of the most startling realizations for her was that the song is wrong, away in a manger. She said in our hymn book it says anonymous. She says well anonymous never had a baby Because she says she just never liked the line that said a little Lord Jesus no crying. He makes She said obviously anonymous never had a baby because Babies cry and you cried a lot never had a baby because babies cry and you cried a lot. So I think it would be funny to see a nativity one day that has baby Jesus screaming and and and poor Joseph trying to clean up the

stable and and the Mary exhausted after the birth. mean, maybe that's the real picture that my mom finally had in her head. And and she said it changed Christmas for her, but in a positive way, because she realized that it was real. It wasn't just a story. She said suddenly the birth of this baby became very real to her. And so, yeah, it's been a really nice experience to have that birthday and just be able to have a little extra sparkle in the season and to be able to have that connection with Mary and with Jesus. It's been kind of a special thing through the years.

We have a daughter Brad, you know Natalie, who was born December 27th. And her name is Natalie Noel because she's so close to her. And I think Natalie means Christmas girl or something like that. So my brother's name Chris, and I'm named Brat. I said, Mom, why didn't you name me Chris? That would have been perfect for Christmas. And she said, well, we figured you'd have enough trauma

with the Christmas birthday. You didn't need more. Didn't you have two trees at your house, Brad? Oh, yeah. My mom and dad would always put up one Christmas tree for Jesus and one birthday tree for me. So in our house, we still have those two trees. We have one for me and one for Jesus. And then my brothers were supposed to put a gift for me under each tree. And then that

way my birthday wouldn't be forgotten. And it worked great until my brother one year bought me a pair of mittens. And he put one under the Christmas tree and one under the birthday tree. And you know the funny thing is that he did it again last year. He showed up at my house with a birthday present and Chris was present. And when I unwrapped him on Christmas morning, it was a pair of socks. One in one box kind of ruins this a birthday surprise. You got to know what's coming. I don't know.

I didn't know you had a baby born on the 27th. So do we. And but I remember I was the one telling Sarah on Christmas. I make it. Sit still. Don't move. Don't walk anywhere. Brad wrote a book about Christmas.

And so did you. John, you wrote a book about Christmas called Born This Happy Morning. Tell me. Here's Brad. Oh, that that was just so fun. I just was inspired by that line from O'Come, All You Faithful. Yay, Lord, we greet the born this happy morning.

And I just, so many things about Christmas, the anticipation the whole world had for Jesus coming. And what that would mean, what a happy morning, you know, even though what we've just discussed in a manger and everything else. But for that to finally happen, I think of the, those in the new world that had the sign of light given

and that the light of the world was coming. And so thanks, Hank for throwing that out there. Oh, I love that book. I love the way that you have reminded us of so many Christmas memories in that book. Well, thank you. I'm glad you did yours. Oh, and the other thing we ought to do

is we probably ought to say happy birthday to the prophet Joseph Smith since it is our doctored and covenants year this year and Joseph Smith was born on December 23rd. I remember that as a kid and thinking, we ought to celebrate that a little bit, right? It's a wonderful connection. And what a happy Christmas that must have made for the Smiths. Let's move into our lesson.

And then if we want to keep laughing and joking, I'm sure our guests won't mind. I kind of expected this as I opened up the lesson in the manual this week to talk about Christmas, but interestingly, we really spend most of our lesson in the Living Christ document. So that's where we're gonna spend our time today, Brad, we'll kind of let you take off and John and I will just be here to eager students, ready to learn.

I think it's a very appropriate thing to be studying at Christmas time because that was the realization my mom had when she had me on Christmas. Hey, this is real. This was a real thing. This was a real birth. These were real people. And the living Christ document certainly reminds us that Jesus Christ documents certainly reminds us that Jesus is real and that he is alive. He's not a little baby in a manger. He's not hanging on a cross. He is resurrected. He is alive. And he is leading this church today.

And that's a beautiful thing to be thinking about and studying at Christmas time. As I started thinking about where we got the Living Christ document, it was actually a birthday present for Jesus. It was President Nelson who said that they put this document together on the year 2000 and he he said we did it as a as it birthday present for the Lord and I think that's a a nice a nice connection to to make as well President Nelson first did the The document in the church news the document in the church news, Elder Nelson at that time, was explaining that the most sacred thing that they felt like they could contribute was their testimony of the living

Christ as the literal Son of God, as they were thinking about this change from the year 1999 to the year 2000. Just as the ancient apostles, including Peter, James and John, Paul, just as they testified of Christ, Elder Nelson said that their words lived long after their death and he said we wanted to leave something that would get into the hearts of people and endure even beyond the life of those testifiers. It's interesting that of all the apostles and prophets who signed that document, today there's only five who are still living. And so, President Nelson's words were right on target. This document has outlived and kept the testimony alive of so many of the brethren who signed it. But today, we still have President Nelson,

President Oakes, President Eiring, Elder Ballard, who's the president acting president of the quorum of the 12th and Jeffrey R. Holland, Elder Holland. And so they are still with us. And this document is of infinite worth says President Nelson. He says, this is the reason my great grandparents and yours joined the church. This is why converts are coming into the church now. It's not because of our programs or procedures. It's because we are rooted in the Lord Jesus Christ. I wanted to find out a little bit more about President Nelson's experience,

and I did. I found it out in the book Insights, Beautiful Book by Sherry Dew about the prophet highlighting high points in his life, and he lists this as a high point in his life. He says, as the year 2000 approached, and thus the 2000 celebration of the birth of the Son of God, the first Presidency in Cormon, the 12 discussed what, if anything, they should do to commemorate the turning of the century. With all the Y2K predictions of possible digital catastrophes and associated hoopla, these prophets, seers, and revelators felt that they, who had been called to bear witness of Jesus Christ throughout all the world, should do something different, something distinctive. And then, President Nelson, elder Nelson at the time, was assigned to oversee the project, which included

shepherding the document through to completion. So yeah, this is a wonderful celebration of the Savior, but it's also a tribute to our prophet who shepherded this project through. And this was back in the year 2000. Now we're in 2021. And I hope he's still here 20 more years from now. I just, I just love him. Now, President Ballard has also written about this experience. He wrote in the biography that just came out on his life.

He says, during this momentous dedication celebration, the first presidency in Cormor of the 12, stood dressed in white before the statues of the historic, statues for a historic photograph. Now, this is the celebration of the dedication of the Rome temple. And he says additionally, as special witnesses to the world of the divinity of Jesus Christ, the first presidency in Quarm of the Twelve, he says, shared their testimony of the Savior by recording excerpts from the document, the living Christ, the testimony of the apostles originally released in 2000. When they had gathered in Rome for that dedication,

they actually recorded parts of the living Christ. You can find that video on YouTube. We'll link it in our show notes. I was just watching that just the other day and it's beautiful. The President Ballard said in a talk called Return and Receive, President Ballard said the living Christ, the testimony of the apostles, was presented to the church on January 1, 2000. Place a copy where you can see it and take time to review each of the statements found in this inspired testimony of Christ by his special witnesses who signed it. So he's asking us to do exactly what we're doing today. I have a copy of the living Christ hanging in my study

I have a copy of the Living Christ hanging in my study and he's asking us to review this document and that's what we're doing. He says prayerfully reading the Living Christ is like reading the testimonies of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, the prophets of the Book of Mormon. It will increase your faith in the Savior and help you stay focused on Him as you follow your plans to reach your eternal goals. Isn't that a beautiful promise for Melder Ballard? Just beautiful. I was thinking as I was preparing for this that so often, stuff like this, documents like

this become decoration, right? They become something we put on the wall and it represents what we believe, but sometimes we don't read them. We just leave them there on the wall. And maybe we should take the time to, take the time to read them. Now, I wanted to mention one thing before we go into the document.

And that is, I had a little moment as I was studying this week, where I got a little, you know, that little feeling in my throat as I read the names and realized how much these individual apostles had done for me. Listen to these ten apostles who have gone on to the spirit world. Robert Dehales, Richard G. Scott, Joseph B. Wurthlin. Well, I just think of, I mean, I can just picture them in my mind and hear their voice. Neil A. Maxwell, David B. Hate, David B. Hate. You remember L. Tom Perry, Boyd Packer, Boyd K. Packer, James E. Faust, Thomas S. Monson, oh, and the prophet of my teenage years, Gordon B.

Hinkley. I mean, I just read those 10 names as I was preparing for this and it just kind of caught my throat just how much those those 10 men who have gone on have done for me personally. And I was I just had a little moment where I was oh wow It's kind of took my breath away there for a second to read those names again, well, it's true because these men These men aren't just leaders of an organization They are apostles. They're special witnesses prophets. And that means that they become part

of my testimony. My witness of Christ is standing on the shoulders of their witnesses of Christ. And that strengthens my own testimony. It deepens and helps give a foundation to my faith. and helps give a foundation to my faith. And so you're right, Hank. We're not just reading the names of famous men or outstanding leaders. We're reading the names of men who have helped us draw closer to Christ. Yeah, it was almost as if I could hear their voice

kind of woven into my memory, right? And I really just took a second and I would encourage everybody to do that who's listening. Take a second, read through those names and just try to hear their voice. Because if you, I mean, every one of those, I can think of a talk that a talk or many talks that had a serious impact on the direction of my life, especially present-hinkly, present-moncin? Someone once asked, President Nelson, when you sing, we thank the O God for a prophet, who are you thinking of?

Because we're all thinking of him. But when he stands there and sings the words, who's he thinking of? And he said that like President Hinckley and other prophets, he said, I think of Joseph Smith. He says, that's the prophet I'm thinking of. So even President Nelson is saying, you know, my life has been influenced by the prophets who have come before me in a talk called, drawing the power of Jesus Christ into our lives. President Nelson says, Joseph Smith, who declared emphatically

that the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the apostles and prophets concerning Jesus Christ, that he died, was buried and rose again the third day and ascended into heaven and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it. And then President Nelson says, it was this very statement of the prophet that provided the incentive for 15 Prophet Sears and Revelators to issue and sign their testimony to commemorate the 2000th anniversary of the Lord's birth.

That historic testimony is titled The Living Christ. As you seek to learn more about Jesus Christ, I urge you to study the Living Christ. And that's what we're going to do today. Let me share one last thing that I found in the footnotes of President Ballard's new biography. It's on page 384 and he says this, of the living Christ and the family, a proclamation to the world, Elder Ballard said, Elder Ballard said, they are going to become progressively more and more stand-alone doctrines as the church stands alone. Now think about it. Many of us remember when the family a proclamation to the world was announced and we at the time thought, well, yeah. This is new in there. This is obvious, this is clear. I mean, this is great to have it written down,

but what's the big deal about it? And yet now all these years later, we know exactly what the big deal was. And I think what we need to realize is that the same thing will happen with this document. As we read through this document, we're thinking, oh, well, what's the big deal? This is what we believe about Christ.

And we have to realize that we are living just 20 years after this document was signed and put out, we are living in what people are calling a post-Christian world. Elder Anderson spoke in conference a while ago and said, in the next 10 years, there will be more people leaving Christianity than entering Christianity. Christianity than entering Christianity. And so I think the same way that the family proclamation, we can now see that it was very prophetic, it was very needed. And in the same way, if we don't see it yet, we will soon see how vital it is for us to be able to refer back to this document and say, no, this is not a post-Christian world. This is a world where Christ still is our focus and still is the object of our worship

and He is still our exemplar and He is still our mentor and He lives today and is leading us today. So, kind of interesting background on the document, isn't it? Yeah, I think that that is wonderful. One connection I made last week, John, you'll remember. We had Dr. Janet Erickson here and she made a wonderful connection between these two documents. She said, the family proclamation is an ideal, we hold it up, we want it, but it can be painful when we don't reach that ideal. And here when we have the pain of not reaching the ideal

of the family proclamation like we want, here we have our where we turn when we have pain from that. And that is to the living Christ. So she just said, hey, these two documents can work together to give us an ideal to reach toward and our way to do any difficulty of, you know, not reaching that ideal for any, for one reason or another. Oh, yeah. What a beautiful insight. And I think it was a genit that mentioned Elder Christopherson saying it's not the plan of perfection. It's the plan of redemption We have a Redeemer. We need a Redeemer and the living Christ is the testimony of that Redeemer That the offers redemption from our imperfection, which I love that In the first paragraph of the document, it says,

none other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth. And I love that statement because, you know, just as the family proclamation came, as the family was under attack, now here we're looking at the living Christ document and realizing that in many parts of the world, Christ is coming under attack. That people are saying, we don't need to believe in Him. And how does a guy's death on a cross have any purpose for me? Or how does that make any difference for me?

And without this understanding, they're so quick to dismiss Christ. And yet, I love this statement because he has had a profound influence on them, even if they don't want to recognize it. You think of the Christian tradition, you think of the education that Christianity kept alive during the dark ages. You think of the progress in so much of the world, can all trace its roots to the growth of Christianity. People are so quick to point out, oh, all these wars have been fought in the name of religion. And yet look at how much good has been done in the name of religion, especially as we look at Christianity. So, the influence that Christ has had is so strong, even in the lives of those who don't recognize it

They don't even realize that the freedom they have is because of those who believed in Christ It's because of Christ that they enjoy some of the personal liberties that they take for granted they enjoy some of the personal liberties that they take for granted. Brad, I'm glad you said that. That comes up in classes. Well, as Christianity is caused wars, people say, and I always love to say, well, that's not what, that's what man did to Christianity, not what Christianity did to man, and misunderstanding of things. And even the 12 were told, people will want to kill you and think they're doing God a favor because of misunderstandings about God. And I remember when I was a long time

ago, I heard a evangelist on television, and I went, I went and bought this book. What if Jesus had never been born? Like see, Dr. James Kennedy. And I remember this whole book is about all of the things, the things you were mentioning, Brad, education, hospitals. I mean, I had no idea all of the things that were fruits of Christianity throughout history, that it was really eye-opening to see what a blessing the Savior has been, even in ways that people might not connect today. Well, look at how many people at Christmas time, even those who now say, oh, I don't believe in

Christ, and yet their Christmas celebrations are such a joyous time of year for them. And they love Christmas movies. They watch all the movies on TV, and they cry, and they love the Christmas music, and even though many of them celebrate Christmas in a way that's detached from Christ, just look at the piece that comes during this time of year, the joy that it brings to so many and realize that that is because of Jesus Christ. So the influence is there, even if they choose to close their eyes to it. Hank, why don't you share your insight from the Bible dictionary about miracles? Yeah, John, I get what you thought of that because I was thinking that I'm grateful that you were good

and a friend that you read my mind at this point because that's exactly what I thought of. When, if you read under miracles, the little heading under in the Bible dictionary, it says they are the natural results of the Messiah's presence, right, not presence, but presence. So if you have Jesus around what naturally happens, miracles naturally happen. And I've showed my students all of a sudden at Christmas time, what happens? People's hearts get softened, right?

People start giving more. They start just being kinder. They reach out to maybe to friends and loved ones they haven't reached out to all year. Why? Because we have Jesus's name up everywhere. We have statues of Him, up around and and all the sudden people get nicer. It's the natural result of having the Messiah just around us more. And what happens on December 26th? We take it all down and everybody goes back to kind of being grouchy. on December 26th, we take it all down and everybody goes back to kind of engrouchy. That's the natural result of not having the Messiah around so much as we just fall into this natural man, natural woman type slump. Look at the document says, he went about doing good. He entreated all to follow his example. And at Christmas time, even those who may not know much about his example, they do follow that tendency to just be a little brighter,

share a little easier, give a little more selflessly. And we see that not only at Christmas time, but for members of the church, we see it all year round. It's been fascinating during COVID to watch what's happened. Because not only have the church donations to fast offerings in humanitarian aid reached record numbers, humanitarian aid reached record numbers, but the church expenditures for fast offerings and humanitarian aid have reached record numbers. I mean, to the hundreds of millions of dollars that have been given, not just to members of the church, but to people all around the world who were in need and who are suffering. And I just love that at this time when it was hard, and in this time when

so many were struggling during this COVID pandemic, hearts were turned outward as we followed the example of the Savior and as we reached out to help others who were in need and they have just during 2020 itself think of all the service projects that have been done clear across the world because people have followed the example of the Savior and they have gone about doing good. I love that. Christianity has done what does it say again, none other has had so profound influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.

There's just nobody like it, even when we say the date, right? Even when someone says, oh, what year is it, 2021? Since when? 20, 2021 years since what? Since what? Since Jesus. Since Jesus. And even though people try to say before common era

and after common era, most kids have to have that explain to them, well, what's the common era? It's Jesus Christ. And so even when people tried to hide his influence, his influence is there. I love the document testifying boldly that he is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. On our mission, we had a woman who was a Jehovah's Witness who ended up joining the Church. And I was invited to attend the baptism. So there were the missionaries and there she was getting baptized. And after her baptism they asked her to share her testimony. There she was, her

hair was wet having just been in the font. She had just changed and she was very emotional as she stood in front of the small group that had gathered and said, now I am truly a Jehovah's Witness. And the missionaries freaked out. They were like, no, no, you just joined the Church of Jesus Christ. But those who had ears to hear understood exactly what she was saying. Now I am truly a witness. She had just covenanted in the waters of baptism. She had just covenanted to stand as a witness of God at all times in all places and to be a witness for Jesus Christ. And now she understood that Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

Oh, that's beautiful. That's wonderful. Now I am a Jehovah's Witness. I know the missionaries were very confused. They're like, no, no, we've been over this. I promise, I promise, President, we've I promise, I promise, President, we've, we've daughter. Another statement I love is he was the first born of the father and only begotten in the flesh. That's a statement that confuses a lot of Christians and yet those statements are right out of Scripture. And yet for many Christians they can understand how he can be the first born of the father, which then says there's going to be a second or a third or a fourth born. And then he's the only begotten in the flesh. And they don't quite understand how those two terms can coexist.

And yet we understand because of our understanding of the pre-mortal world, we understand that he was the first born spirit child of God. And then he's the only begotten in the flesh. John, you shared with me a powerful insight the other day about why we use the King James Bible when we are talking about John 316? John 316, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. Whose whoever believed on him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 316 verse, Elder Christopherson called it the plan of salvation in one verse. The phrase, the only begotten son, if you find translations

after King James, they don't like that word begotten. The idea that God begats, they took that out. And so you'll find in translations after the King James, it will say, though, one and only son or something like that, they took out the begotten part. Yeah, interesting. You remember that, Brad. And yet right here in the document, these brethren did not shy away from that word at all. They said he is the only begotten son in the flesh. I also love the next paragraph. As the risen Lord, he visited among those he had loved in life. He also ministered among his other sheep in ancient America. Sometimes in my classes I'll say, since when did Jesus give a commandment that he was not willing to live? And when he said, go ye into all the world.

Was he telling his apostles to do something that he didn't do? He told them to get baptized and he got baptized. So he's telling them to go into all the world and then he himself is also going to go into all the world and we have remarkable evidence of that in the book of Mormon, where it says not only did he visit the ancient Americas, but he also visited other parts of the world and his sheep in many places in the world. I read an article on Meridian magazine where there was in Russia, there was a record album cover that a famous painter had made of Jesus with Russian Orthodox ancient Russian Orthodox priests or something. And this member of the church saw this album cover

and said, well, what is this? And this Russian Orthodox priest, well, there's this legend that Jesus came here after he was resurrected. And it was pretty fun, because in my class, everybody's got laptops now. He just produced the picture right now and held it up for everybody. And this, remember the church said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

So you're saying that you have a legend that Jesus came after his resurrection to this part of the world. Do you think that's plausible? And this priest said, you're talking about the Book of Mormon, aren't you? And Yeah, so that you probably find that article, but that's not the only place. I've heard that there are other legends about Jesus going there.

I love that idea, Brad, that he told them to go into all the world and he himself went into all the world and he told him He was going to do it. Either she by have it's not you, it's not those. In Jerusalem, I'm going to go see them. And he didn't say if that was in Wander in many places. So I think it was probably in many places. You should hear the missionaries in the London, England mission, belt out the song they sing as their mission song.

And it's a song about Jesus coming to England. And it wasn't written by a member of the church. It's an ancient hymn, but it also harks back to a legend that Christ came to England. And so you start seeing these touches of that truth that he visited other sheep, and you start seeing touches of that clear around the world. I love the phrase here in the document that says, he and his father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith. You know, just as we said that Jesus has had this incredible influence in the world, we have to acknowledge

the incredible influence that Joseph Smith has had in our understanding of Jesus. Some kid came to me the other day and said, Brother Wilcox, I don't believe in Joseph Smith anymore, but I still believe in God and Jesus. And I said, I don't want to be rude, but do you realize how silly that just sounded? And he's like, what? And I said, you just separated God and Jesus. You just made them two different individuals. Where did you learn to do that? Who taught you that? It was Joseph Smith who taught you that they are two individuals. And so don't tell me you don't believe in Joseph Smith anymore when your whole understanding of God and Christ can be traced back to

the teachings and testimony of Joseph Smith. All right. This someone might say, you know, I don't believe in the prophet Joseph Smith anymore. I'm like, well, you don't want to be married in the next life. Look what he's going to be married in the next life. Yeah. Where'd you get that from? That's not a prophet.

Yeah, so much. So many things like that. I think was it Derek, Garrett Durkmont that just made a list kind of just off the cuff of things that if you leave, you're leaving this. Oh, I don't like the way that we haven't talked about Mother in Heaven. Well, you leave the church. There is no Mother in Heaven. Well, I don't like this marriage in the next life is confusing about, you know, well, there's no marriage in the next life. confusing about, you know, well, there's no marriage in the next life.

You don't have to worry about it. Yeah. He just went off all these things that are part of the restoration. Thanks for saying that, Brad. Well, even the document quotes Joseph Smith and says, this is the testimony last of all, which we give of him that he lives for we saw him as people are struggling to stay in Christianity and they feel like they don't have a witness that they can look to to be evidence for their faith, they need to realize that Joseph Smith is that witness. He saw him.

Why do we believe that Jesus is real? I mean, why don't we just cave and say, oh, well, he's just a fable. He's just a myth. I mean, it's just something that people made up all those years ago. Why don't we fold? Why don't we cave when people say there's nothing true in the Bible? It's just like a Folk tale that's been passed down. It's oral stories that were finally written down. I mean people are so quick to dismiss all of that, and as Latter-day Saints, we're not. We're not quick to dismiss that because we have a witness who is a modern witness. Not just Joseph Smith, but even the witnesses who signed this document, who have a special witness of Jesus Christ,

that strengthens our testimonies. special witness of Jesus Christ, that strengthens our testimonies. Brad, one of the things I wanted to add today, it was kind of a revelation to me. I didn't realize it in my Master's program that just as there is kind of a continuum of liberal and conservative in politics, there's a liberal, conservative continuum in Christianity. And one famous example is the Jesus seminar. I want

to say the 80s. It's a sound familiar. They got together and kind of voted on what they really thought was in the Bible. Now, this is what Dr. Robert Millett taught me. They're people who are Bible scholars who are not Bible believers. But they went through the Gospels and decided what to throw out. They threw out all of the miracles. The resurrection, most of the book of John, I think, is what they said. And this was a new, I didn't know that. And this is President Benson talked about the book of Mormon testifying of the divinity of Christ that he's not just a great moral teacher, but he was divine, he was resurrected,

the greatest miracle of all, you know? And this document testifies of that and the Book of Mormon also goes back to, no, no, no, no, he really was the son of God, he really was divine, The miracles, the healing, are all testified that those were real as well. So we would be on the more conservative side in that continuum of Christianity

that would say, no, not only was there at Jesus of Nazareth, but he was Jesus Christ. He was the Son of God. He was divine. This document testifies of it and so does the Book of Mormon. Brad, when you mentioned the Son of God, he was divine, this document testifies of it and so does the Book of Mormon. Brad, when you mentioned the idea of why don't we just say Jesus is a myth, you know, like so many others, and there's this man from history who people say is pretty smart, his name is Albert Einstein. I don't know if either of you have heard of him, but he said, as a child, I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud.

I am a Jew. But I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene. This is Albert Einstein. No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus, his personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life. Wow, that's awesome.

Yeah, so why don't we jump in to say, all the smart people are jumping in on this Brad, why don't we jump in? Well, Albert Einstein's pretty smart. And he's, and even coming from a Jewish background, he still recognizes the vitality of the witnesses of Christ and of his life. Please join us for part 2 of this podcast. you