Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - D&C 2, JSH 1:27-65 Part 2 • Dr. Scott Woodward • January 20-26 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: January 15, 2025

Dr. Woodward continues discussing Doctrine and Covenants 2 and the early days of the Restoration.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC204ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC204FRGerman: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC204DEPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC204PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC204ESYOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/YjDvx5rb-f4ALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 - Part 2 - Dr. Scott Woodward01:59 Moroni declares his purpose05:07 Moroni and President Nelson share the same message08:02 Moroni’s warnings10:29 Alvin’s death14:23 Infuriating unfairness17:16 Josiah Stowell hires Joseph20:54 Joseph Smith’s world24:40 Restoring lost things25:37 Expecting the unexpected27:09 Emma30:49 Emma on Sept 2232:49 Emma’s story36:27 Martin Harris39:35 Charles Anton43:36 1/100th of the history47:23 Relevance of Joseph’s story50:42  End of Part 2 - Dr. Scott WoodwardThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsAmelia Kabwika : Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to part two with Dr. Scott Woodward, Doctrine and Covenants, section two. Let's pick up back in the history in verse 40, where Moroni quotes more Old Testament passages. And so we're just going to take the next two hours going through each one of these. Yeah. Stay with us, Stelden. This is going to be a 48-hour episode. Hey, listen, this took all night for Joseph Smith. Okay, just going through this. Let's get a little glimpse. He says he also quoted, after he quoted Malachi, he also quoted the 11th chapter of Isaiah, which is about when the Lord will set his hand again, second time to recover scattered Israel. And Moroni said, it's about to

be fulfilled. And then he quoted also the third chapter of Acts, 22nd, 23rd verses about the Lord raising up a prophet like Moses. And that prophet was Christ, Moroni said. He said that day is not yet come when those who won't hear his voice will be cut off, but it will soon come. Do you notice the theme back with Malachi that people will be left without root or branch if they don't accept the Lord, if they don't accept the covenant, then they're going to be cut off. Those who won't accept Christ's voice, the Moses-like prophet, will be cut off. It's all saying the same thing in different ways. It's about if you don't choose to become part of that family, you're not going to have roots or branches, man. You're not going to become part of that. That's a pretty stern threat. He quotes Joel 2 verses 28 through 30.

This is about God pouring out his spirit upon all flesh. He said this is not fulfilled yet, but it's about to be. And he said that the fullness of the Gentiles was about to come in. This is where the Gentiles instead of the Jews become the primary custodians of the gospel, the keys of the kingdom, et cetera. He also quoted many other passages of scripture, Joseph said. I cannot mention them here. Oliver Cowdery later did. Oliver Cowdery learned from Joseph what those other passages were, and he mentions them. I won't go through them all, but we're talking Deuteronomy, Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and

1 Corinthians. Rather than walking through those one by one and being like, how does that relate to this big theme? I just want to read Joseph Smith's 1842 summary, his synthesis statement of what Moroni said, which is really succinct, it's packed, it's one sentence that I think summarizes what all these verses are about and really does a good job summarizing the work of the restoration. Here's what Joseph said, quote, this messenger, Moroni, proclaimed himself to be an angel of God sent to bring the joyful tidings, one, that the covenant which God made with ancient Israel

was at hand to be fulfilled. Ooh, what covenant's that? The covenant that if they're scattered, they will one day be gathered again. Deuteronomy 30. Two, that the preparatory work for the second coming of the Messiah was speedily to commence. There's the Isaiah 11 stuff. There's some of those other passages. Three, that the time was at hand for the gospel in its fullness to be preached in power unto all nations. Why? He ends this by saying that a people might be prepared for the millennial rain.

That's the thesis statement of the restoration, don't you think, right there? This is the season to, number one, gather Israel. Why? To prepare for Messiah's coming. How? By preaching the fullness of the gospel to every nation. Why?

So that a people can be ready for Jesus' second coming. Like you mentioned second coming twice here. This is why we do what we do. And then, I love the next line Joseph says, I was informed that I was chosen to be an instrument in the hands of God to bring about some of his purposes in this glorious dispensation. Pretty solid understatement, typical Joseph Smith. That's the message that Moroni is bringing that night is like big things are about to happen. Major covenantal promises of old are about to be fulfilled. And Joseph, you have something to do with this.

And that book in the hill nearby is pretty central to this work as well. We talk about the gathering of Israel and bringing people to the Messiah. Like, wow, what an instrument. Scott, what a fantastic sentence. One sentence. As a teacher or as a parent, you could use that sentence you added. I was informed that I was chosen to be an instrument in the hands of God to bring about some of His purposes in this glorious dispensation. Isn't that a beautiful idea for everyone?

Wouldn't that be great to take to your son or daughter? You have been chosen to be an instrument in the hands of God to bring about a peace. Some, I love how Joseph put in there, some, I'm not the main character, some of his purposes in this glorious dispensation. A little patriarchal blessing almost for all of us. Yeah, pair that with President Nelson's Worldwide Youth devotional back in, I think, June 2018, where he's talking to all the youth of the church, and he says, do you want to be part of something big?

The greatest cause on earth, yeah, is the gathering of Israel. It's fun to watch the prophet teach teenagers and get them excited about the gathering of Israel. And then it dawned on me, I was like, that's what Moroni was doing. Moroni is trying to get a teenage boy excited about the fulfillment of ancient covenant promises that are going to culminate in the greatest story that's ever been told. President Nelson just says to the youth, this is why you were born.

You can play an important part in this. He says, it's why you were born. You can play an important part in this. He says, it's why you were born. So if you want to talk about I was chosen to be an instrument in the hands of God to bring about some of his purposes, that's true. Not all of his purposes, but what do you feel guided to? How can you help build the kingdom of God and gather Israel in the last days

in preparation for Messiah's return? What could you do? Yeah. If you're not feeling great about life, if you've got a young person who says, you know, I don't know what this is all about. Who am I? What am I doing here? What's my purpose?

Your spirit can grasp onto this idea. This is why you're here. So every seminary teacher out there, every parent out there, you're basically repeating this moment in Joseph's room every day. Come on. Now, you're going to love this. Listen to these scriptures. And by the way, he has to hear it how many times? He has to hear it multiple times. Yeah, we don't have to go through all of the times, but Joseph says, the light gathered around him, a conduit opened up, he ascended into the conduit, which was amazing. Joseph says, I was laying there musing

on the singularity of the scene, marveling at what he just said, and then bam, he comes again. And he said he repeated it again, all of it, quote, without the least variation. And then he added a little bit, and then he added a little bit, and then he added a little bit. And then he left again, gathered the light, conduit, and then Joseph says, so deep were the impressions made on my mind that sleep had fled from my eyes. And I lay overwhelmed in astonishment at what I'd both seen and heard. And then, bam! He says, but what was my surprise when again, I'd be held the same messenger at my bedside and he said the same things as before.

And then added another caution that Satan's gonna try to tempt me to use the plates, to get rich and help my family out who's poor. And then after that, he says the cock crowed and I realized that we had just spent an all nighter together studying the Old Testament, Joseph and the angel, but he's a farmer and he's gotta get up I caught crowed and I realized that we had just spent an all-nighter together studying the Old Testament, Joseph and the angel. But he's a farmer and he's got to get up and go do his chores.

He goes to do his chores with his dad and his dad says, you know, it looks so good. He said, I don't feel so good. He says, why don't you go back to the house and get some rest? He tries to hop his little fence by the apple orchard and passes out. Next thing he remembers was Moroni, lightning face, looking at him and saying, Joseph, your sins are forgiven. God has a work for you. There's a book buried in a hill nearby. There are some amazing Old Testament passages I'd now like to review with you. There are warning, warning, great judgments coming. Don't let Satan tempt you. And then he adds one more thing. It says, now go tell your father everything I told you.

And he goes and talks to his dad. His dad starts to weep, one account says. And he says, go do everything the angel told you to do. So then instead of going home to get rest, Joseph hikes two miles and up the hill near his house after having gotten no rest, hikes up to the hill, uncovers up on the north side, he said, on the west of the top, there's a rock that I stuck a little stick underneath as a lever and popped up. It turned out that rock was kind of a lid. I slid it over and there indeed were the plates. He said, I tried to grab them and I got shocked a couple times. He expressed in frustration out loud to no one in particular, why can't I get the plates? And when he did, Moroni showed up right then and said, it's because you didn't

do what you were instructed to do. And then Joseph admits, yeah, as I was walking to the hill, I had been thinking about how my family might be able to get rich off of the plates, or at least maybe the book that will come from the plates or something. And Moroni is going to be a pretty strict taskmaster the next couple years. As Joseph is told by Moroni, you come back here every day, always on the 22nd of September, and we'll have a return on report. Let's talk.

We'll see when you're ready. He's not given a clear indication it's going to be four years. We know that. It's going to be four years. Joseph doesn't know. He went home disappointed that year. The next year, him and his family were very hopeful in 1824 that this was going to be the year.

And when he came back, the whole family was disappointed. They were praying for him. Lucy Mac Smith says we prayed and we fasted for him. The next year didn't happen. The next year didn't happen. Finally 1827. Finally, 1827 it happens. It's going to be four years of Joseph's higher education, if we could call it that, with

Moroni as his tutor. It's going to be really important, really intense. By the time he's done with that tutelage, Moroni is going to trust him with the plates and say that you're ready. You are ready, but give him strict warnings. Do not let these go out of your hands. When they were in my power, they were always protected in your hands. They are vulnerable. So you do everything that I tell you and that God has commanded you to do and they'll be safe. I'm summarizing a great deal of content here, but this is where this all starts to go for Joseph.

This is wonderful. After the first visit, the tragedy of Alvin's death, what does that do to the family? This is a major blow. I remember one of my students, just a teenager, said, well, they were used to people dying, right? I said, no, no, no. They love their family just like you do.

I promise. It wasn't, well, there goes another one. From what you've read, things are going well. Listen to what is going to happen. I think Alvin, didn't Joseph say he was excited? He was a big believer. Yeah. Alvin dies in November, November 15th.

Joseph meets Moroni in September. Not a lot of time. September, October, November. Not even quite a full, what, two months after this has happened. But yeah, Alvin had believed Joseph's story when Joseph told the family. Joseph even says that sometimes Alvin would tell everyone to hurry and do their chores extra quick so they could come and listen to Joseph tell more about some of the things that he learned from Roni. Alvin was 25 years old. His death was devastating. He was engaged to be married.

Everything was going well. And he got, I think what we would call, gallstones. That doesn't kill him. What killed him was the family sent for a doctor at Alvin's request. He's like, I don't feel good. I think I need a doctor. They sent for a doctor. Their family doctor was absent. And so they've just found some guy, Dr. Greenwood, who immediately administered a heavy dose of this stuff they called Calomel, which is like a poisonous mercury powder

that they used to use for medical treatment until they found out it was poisonous. That's what's gonna kill Alvin. It's gonna lodge in his stomach. It's gonna take a couple days and Alvin realizes this is gonna kill me. Other doctors come and try to help, but they can't help. And Alvin, seeing the writing on the wall,

calls his family and says, "'Let me give you my last words.'" And very tender to walk through that. Whenever I do a tour, take a group to Alvin's grave there in the Swift Cemetery in Palmyra, I always walk through his last words to his family members there. It's so touching. The doctor that performed the autopsy on Alvin's name, Dr. McIntyre, he actually used this as a

teaching moment for young doctors. He said, I think pointing to the body of Alvin in front of these other young physicians, he said, here is one of the loveliest youth that ever trod the streets of Palmyra, destroyed, murdered, by him at whose hand relief was expected, cast off from the face of the earth by a careless quack who even dared to trifle with the life of a fellow mortal. Oh, doctors. He's like, you gotta do better than this. This devastates the family. In fact, to just underscore how much Alvin was a supporter of Joseph and his mission, Lucy says that they couldn't talk about the Book of Mormon

for quite some time after Alvin's death because every time they talked about the Book of Mormon, they thought of Alvin and the memory was too painful. This is not just going to impact them for those few months, but you'll know that for the rest of the story of the restoration in Joseph Smith's time, Alvin's gonna play in the background. There's gonna be questions about Alvin. What about those who were really good people but they never got baptized in this life? What about that? One of the first people baptized for the dead in this dispensation is Alvin.

One of the last names on Father Smith's lips as he's dying in 1840 in Nauvoo is Alvin. He said, I see Alvin. And then he dies. And so his memory is going to not just be there as a sweet memory and as a painful memory, but also it's going to lead to some really important theological questions that Joseph Smith has

that leads to some powerful revelations that answers really tender questions that all of us have about lost loved ones. Alvin becomes the conduit through which we're gonna learn some really powerful things about people we love who die. Now, and Scott, although this isn't something you get from reading Joseph Smith history, knowing that this Smith family faced tragedy that is so unfair, that is, what would Elder Renlund call it?

Infuriating unfairness. That is not fair that he didn't have to die. Here they carried on and it ended up becoming beautiful, beautiful story of Joseph seeing him in the Celestial. I can't imagine. It brings tears to your eyes to think of it. Yeah Joseph ran home after he saw Alvin. That's January 1836 and the record says he ran home to tell his family, I saw Alvin. Scott, one other, and we will get to this in later episodes, but one other major thing that happens between 1823 and 1827 is a certain young woman who comes into Joseph's life.

I think maybe Alvin's death and meeting Emma Hale are both significant to him being able to take the plates. He grows up quite a bit. Yeah, in the history here, he actually, after saying Alvin died, he instantly fast forwards two years in the story. Alvin dies in verse 56, in that same verse, which is 1823. He then says, and in the month of October, 1825. Bam, two years. I hired with an old gentleman by the name of Josiah Stoll. And he talks about how Josiah Stoll had heard about a silver mine that had been opened by the Spaniards somewhere in Harmony, Susquehanna County, that's down in Pennsylvania. Previous to hiring Joseph Smith, he had been digging to try to find it, but he couldn't. He sought out Joseph to see if he could help him find the silver. And Lucy Mack Smith actually

adds an important detail here. She said that the reason Josiah Stowell came to hire Joseph Smith Jr. is because, quote, he came for Joseph on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye, close quote. A seer, someone who could see the unseen. That would be a really nice guy to have on your team if you're looking for buried treasure. Josiah Stowell believed that he could do this. In fact, we haven't mentioned this much, but Joseph Smith had come upon two seer stones. This is part of the culture of

Joseph Smith's time that sometimes is hard for us modern folk living in the age of enlightenment to really wrap our minds around. But while digging a well at Willard Chase's property, Joseph had found a stone. And another one was by Lake Erie. He had found another stone that he could use to see things, where he said that time and space were annihilated and he could see whatever he desired to see. Josiah Stoll had heard of this. Not only had he heard it, he had seen Joseph use those stones and had seen that he had actually found lost stuff. In fact, there's a little of a side story here. Josiah Stoll's sons had felt like Joseph Smith was maybe taking advantage of their father, misreading the situation by having Joseph come to try to

help with the silver mine. They're actually going to press charges against Joseph Smith for being a quote disorderly person, misdemeanor charges. There's going to actually be a trial that's held in March 1826. It's, I think, one of the earliest, if not the earliest court case involving Joseph Smith. The charge was based on New York law, which at the time forbade people from, quote, discovering where lost goods may be found, close quote, assuming that such activity was fraudulent. The court stenographer, this guy named William Purple, who was a skeptic of Joseph Smith his whole life, he wrote that what Joseph said when he was brought up to the stand to

testify was so interesting, he said, I thought I should record all of this. And then Josiah Stowell was called up after Joseph Smith's father was called up to talk about does he really have a stone that he can see, Steph, and does it really work? And are you trying to fraud people out of their money by using this? In the court, as it proceeds, they ask if Joseph has the stone and Joseph says, yeah, I have it right here in my pocket. And he pulls it out and he shows those in the court, he shows the judge and others, like here's the stone.

They said, how did you find that? Where did that come from? And he said, there was a girl in Palmyra named Sally Chase who had a seer stone herself, and I asked if I could look at her seer stone. When I looked at her seer stone, I saw this seer stone by a river next to Lake Erie. I asked permission from my parents if I could go and get it. And they said, yes. And so I traveled to Lake Erie and

I found it right where I had seen it in Sally Chase's stone. I polished it off, I looked into the hat, I put it at the bottom of the hat and looked at it and I could see anything. I mean the whole court is just kind of like jaws drop here like. And then they said we'd like to call it the stand Joseph Smith Sr. Joseph Smith Sr. stands up and he testifies that his son actually has a gift. He's like, he's not kidding. He really can see things.

The incredulous judge calls Josiah Stoll to the stand. He stands up and he swears, I'll read from the transcript, he swore that the prisoner, Joseph Smith Jr., possessed all the power he claimed and he declared that he could see things 50 feet below the surface of the earth as plain as the witness could see what was on the justices table, and described very many circumstances to confirm his words. And then the judge says to Josiah Stowell, incredulously he says, Deacon Stowell, do I understand you as swearing before God under the solemn oath that you have taken, that you believe the prisoner can see by the aid of the stone fifty feet below the surface of the earth as plainly as you can see what's on my table?" Josiah Stoll says,

Do I believe it? Do I believe it? No, it's not a matter of belief. I positively know it to be true. Josiah Stoll. That's like on the court records. So amazing. That's why Josiah Stoll wanted Joseph on his team because Joseph had seer stones that he could use to see unseen stuff. In Joseph's account, he says, after working with him for a month, I finally prevailed upon the man to stop looking for the silver mine.

He said, it's not here. And he says, it's from this story that all the rumors have come that I was a money digger. That's it right there. Scott, how would you help explain that to a young person who doesn't understand the world Joseph Smith lives in? It sounds so foreign to us, but really, I mean, how long has the United States been a country? It's been 30 years. George Washington just died. It's just a totally different world. Yeah, I explain it like this,

because this is how I try to explain it to my students. There were a few people in Joseph's community who had seer st stones that they could look at and find lost stuff. One of those was a girl down the street named Sally Chase. When my students start to kind of furl their brow, I say, all right, so we got to pause, don't we? We need to talk about this.

That it's important to know that using stones as a means of channeling divine power would not at all have been surprising or foreign to someone like Joseph Smith because Joseph had grown up in a New England subculture where many people, including his own father, believe that divine knowledge could be revealed through objects like rods or stones they thought similar to what had been done in biblical times. We think of Aaron's rod or Jesus spitting in dirt and then making mud and putting on someone's eyes. Physical objects that could be used to channel God's power. This belief seems to have been carried over from England, where between the 1600s and 1800s, people

in communities there were called scribes or seers, often used stones to find hidden or lost objects to see the future. Today, this stuff only survives in fiction. Think about this, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Yeah, there's a stone. Or people looking into glass balls, crystal balls, looking to see things in crystal balls. This is the stuff of fiction, but it traces back to when people used to earnestly believe this is true. There were large parts of people in Europe and even in America by this time who had rejected the belief in those kinds of enchanted practices

because of the age of enlightenment that is now starting to come onto the scene. But there are still many in Joseph's culture, especially in Little Palmyra Village, who not only believed in such things but had witnessed their use firsthand. And Joseph Smith Jr. was one of these people. I don't know, is this God using means that people believe are true to have it work, but now people don't believe in that stuff, he doesn't use it anymore? I don't know exactly how to explain this in a way that a fully enlightened rational mind is going to be like, oh, okay, that makes total sense. In fact, here's a funny little thought.

The age of enlightenment was brought about in large part through the works of people like Isaac Newton. And you know what's funny? Isaac Newton had a seer stone, man. Like there's a biography of him called Isaac Newton, The Last Sorcerer. He's right there on like the dividing line between the age of enchantment and the age of enlightenment. Isaac Newton is believing in seer stones and he's propounding super cool mathematical equations and he's not separating those as different. They're both magic. The only thing that makes me think there's any legitimacy to Joseph Smith's use of seer

stones, honestly, Hank and John, is the Book of Mormon. I've read that book a lot of times and it's incredible. How do you guys explain it? I think it's wonderful. I do. I think it's brilliant. The do. I think it's brilliant. You know, the Lord uses where you are. The Lord meets you where you are and says,

I can take you. A good teacher can notice where you are and come up with a series of steps to get you where they want you to be. They meet you there. Yeah, I like that. That reminds me of how one of the Joseph Smith paper scholars, his name is Mark Asher's McGee, great guy. He said, it seems what the Lord was doing with Joseph is taking a local village seer and turning him into his seer. A lowercase village S seer to an uppercase S seer, the Lord's mouthpiece. So he had these innate gifts, apparently, that Moroni and the Lord are going to help him refine to do God's work, not to find lost

objects anymore. But how about restore lost truths, bring back lost keys to restore lost people into God's family? How about that? And you can see Moroni, right Scott, tutoring him? Come on, come on, give it up. Stop hanging out with the money digger. Yeah, yeah. What does Paul say? When I was a child, I spoke as a child. But when I became a man... I put away childish things. Speaking of the age of enlightenment, I like what Hancoys refers to as, look, if you can believe in this greatest miracle, these little ones ought to be fine. And what's that greatest miracle, Hank? If you believe in the resurrection of Jesus,

nothing should surprise you after this. Man was dead, came back to life, never going to die again, travels apparently to and fro from the planet. You believe in that and then you think, well, this story's a little far-fetched. Really? No. The resurrection of Jesus makes every other miracle probable, not just possible, but probable. When I hear the Joseph Smith story, I think, oh, that falls right in line with a resurrection story. Yeah. I mean, we've been talking today about a resurrected being in Joseph Smith's bedroom who's telling him about all this stuff, that the resurrection is not just centered on Jesus, but as the Bible and other scripture tells us, Jesus was the first fruits of the resurrection of other people. And here's one of those other people

hovering in Joseph's bedroom. This is wild stuff. Isn't that funny, Scott, that we're so used to that story that we think, oh, yeah, that's great. A man appears, he's floating, he's talking to Joseph, his face is like lightning, and then we start mentioning seer stones. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, seer stones. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's a good point. Very valid point. Scott, what do you want to do next?

We need to talk about Emma. Let's talk about Emma. Joseph convinces Josiah Stowell to shut down the silver mine, but did Joseph find treasure as a result of his going down to Harmony to work with Josiah's stole? Hmm. That has the Lord's handwriting all over it, doesn't it? He's tuition on the very end.

Hey, guess what? You actually did find something more valuable. More precious than rubies. Yeah. I think we could argue he found his treasure in Harmony, Pennsylvania. Her name is Emma. She is daughter of Isaac Hale and Elizabeth Hale. Joseph will actually board at the Hales house while he is working with Josiah Stoll.

This is how he meets Emma by staying at her house. She's a year older than Joseph. Once they started liking each other, her father was concerned and then Joseph actually asks her dad if he can marry his daughter. I actually have Isaac Hill's reaction right here. Are you ready? Isaac Hill said this, this is his own record. He said, the young Smith made several visits at my house and at length asked my consent to marry my daughter Emma. This I refused and gave my reasons for so doing, some of which were that he was a stranger and followed a business that I could not approve. He then left the place, but not long after

this, he returned. While I was absent, he carried off my daughter in the state of New York where they were married without my approbation or consent." Close quote. Joseph mentions this in verse 58, he says, owing to my continuing to assert that I had seen a vision, persecution still followed me and my wife's father's family were very much opposed to our being married. I was therefore under the necessity of taking her elsewhere. So we went and were married at the house of Squire Tarbill in South Bainbridge, Chenango County, New York. And immediately after my marriage, I left and went to my father's and farmed with him that season back up in New York.

He admits to this, he's like, yeah, we had to elope. This turns into, as it always does with Joseph Smith, bigger than life, like this rumor about him. And so, he actually responds to questions later in 1838 in a Q&A. This is a published Q&A. It says, did Joe Smith not steal his wife? To which he replied, ask her. She was of age, she can answer for herself. Emma was later interviewed by her own son actually

about her side of the story. And here's what Emma said, she said, quote, I had no intention of marrying Joseph when I left home, when he came and got me. But during my visit at Mr. Stoll's, Joseph visited me there. My folks were bitterly opposed to him being importuned by Joseph to marry him and aided by Mr. Stoll who urged it, she said, and preferring to marry him to any other man I knew, I consented. Pretty romantic stuff right there. Preferring to marry him to any other man I knew, I consented. So she says, we went over to Squire Tarbell's and were married. Yeah, just matter of fact. That's how they meet, that's how they fall in love, that's how they marry, not on good terms with Emma's

parents to begin with. And it was providential that they go up to New York instead of stay down in Harmony because that's the year 1827. That's the time when it's ripe to get the plates. Emma Smith will be there right at Joseph's side. She'll be actually driving the wagon. She'll be driving the getaway vehicle at the base of the mountain when Joseph goes up and meets Moroni on September 22nd

and receives the plates finally after four years of waiting. And Emma is a great support that evening and a powerful support for Joseph and a believer in the truth claims of her husband and the restoration. She's going to be incredible through thick and thin throughout the restoration. This is where she enters the story. We could say this church was restored through this couple. Moroni's waiting and waiting and waiting. He says now you can. Scott, could you say Joseph Smith doesn't become the man we love

without Emma Hale? Oh, 100%. Yeah. She's everything. They're going to have struggles in Nauvoo when Joseph starts to practice plural marriage as any couple would, I think. And sometimes she gets some flack for her reactions there. But this couple's a powerhouse couple. She's incredible through thick and thin, like I said. and that's her Abrahamic test to the way it's framed in Section 132, his plural marriage. And I think it's precisely because she loves her husband so dearly that that's going to be such a difficult challenge, both for her and for him. So sometimes that has a shadow over their marriage.

You know, I feel like when people know their full story, it's like, well, what about that? But look at the whole thing. Look at their marriage as a whole and look at her support all along the way from beginning to end. Even in the midst of that turbulence, she's remarkable. What a great word. It's almost a second angel in his life. Give her credit where credit's due.

Just knowing how Joseph felt about her, I'm really careful what I say about Emma. As we should be. Yeah. It's easy to bully dead people like we said. Scott, just in case someone's, you know, new to the church and they've heard Emma Smith doesn't stay with what we would say the church and move forward into Utah. If I'm new to the church, what is the church's feeling towards Emma today? Today, that's a good clarification. Today, it's in the midst of some pretty strong difficulty. This is shortly after the death of her husband, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. I'm summarizing a lot of history here, but they essentially take charge of the church.

There's some feelings of tension between Emma Smith and Brigham Young, who's the president of the Quorum of the Twelve at the time, based on Brigham's continuing to promote plural marriage among the faithful and about property, church property. Is it Joseph's property, personal property, or is it the church's? What should Emma get of the property after Joseph's death and what should go to the church. And there's some tension between her and Brigham over these things. And she doesn't want to be left a destitute widow.

She wants enough to take care of her family. And Brigham's not trying to make her a destitute widow, but there's tension. He's going to move west, right, Scott? He's thinking, I'm going to go out there and these people are going to die if we don't have resources. Yeah. You can make a case on both sides. He's thinking, I'm going to go out there and these people are going to die if we don't have resources. Yeah, you can make a case on both sides. He will leave Nauvoo with the Quorum of the Twelve and ask the church members to follow and about

10,000 Latter-day Saints, that initial group, leave Nauvoo and go out west, upload all the pioneer stories and those things and they come out to Utah. But there's a group of saints who don't go west with the Twelve, and one of those is Emma Smith. Also, we should add Joseph Smith's mother doesn't go either. Again, not because of bitterness or anything like that, but because in Lucy Mac Smith's case, old age, she couldn't handle going across the plains. And for Emma, she wanted to maybe stay back and raise her kids in Nauvoo in the city of Joseph and spend time there. My understanding is there wasn't some big rebellious break there. She just said, I don't want to go west. And so she didn't. So there is, I'd say, a season of some potential feelings between the church and Emma Smith. When the wounds are fresh and they leave and she doesn't want to come, there is, I'd say, a season of some even anti-Emma rhetoric. But I hope that over time,

those have healed and I think so. I think we're at a good place now. I think we can look with empathy on her condition. We can see, you know, where things were going. But at the end of her life, she's interviewed by her sons and they ask her about her belief in her husband's prophetic calling and the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. And she bears witness and wants it on record that she believes her husband was a true prophet of God. She believes that the Book of Mormon that came through him was divine. She says, I know it was because I know Joseph and he could not have produced a book like that.

I was there, right? Yeah, I was there. I wrote. She was one of the scribes for some of the first part of the manuscript of the Book of Mormon, and she is convinced to her dying breath that what happened through him was a miracle. It was a marvelous work and a wonder. She knew it as well as anybody,

because she was on the front lines and got to see it on the front row. I think we should be tender about Emma. I think we should be careful. Like you said, John, Joseph loves her. Joseph cares about her deeply and to his dying day, wanted to be with Emma forever. I think we could honor their memory by letting it kind of land there. I think so too. Scott, before we let you go, tell us about Martin Harris. John, we remember it's almost four years ago where Scott walked us through section 18 of the Doctrine and Covenants and Martin Harris. So we'll kind of come full circle here, Scott. You've told us a little bit later about Martin Harris,

but tell us the beginnings of Martin Harris. Feels like he's important. I think you could make an argument. Martin Harris is important to this story, yeah. This history is so rich. He says, in the midst of our afflictions, we found a friend in a gentleman by the name of Martin Harris, who came to us and gave me $50 to assist us on our journey.

Mr. Harris was a resident of Palmyra Township, Wayne County in the state of New York and a farmer of respectability. This is how he characterizes him. Their interaction actually begins a little before this. Joseph had worked for Martin previously and Martin had found him a good worker. Martin's about double Joseph's age. He's about 44 about this time. He said when he first learned about the plates is when Joseph had sent for him. He specifically called for Martin Harris to come to the farm. He wondered about that. He was curious.

He came to the farm and Joseph took him aside and took him out for a walk, Martin says, and told him that an angel had appeared to him and told him that this was God's work and that he had told him to ask for Martin Harris to come and help him. He told Martin Harris that the angel had told him to look into the Yermont-Thummim and he would see

the man that would help him with this work. Joseph said, I looked in the Yarmouth-thummim and I saw you, Martin. At this point, Martin said, hold on now. He said, Joseph, you must not blame me for not taking your word. He said, if the Lord will show me that this is his work, then I'm happy to help however you want. I'll even give you money. You can have all the money you want to help support you with this, which is true. Later on, he's going to give some money. He said, I left Mr. Smith's house and I went home. This is Martin speaking. I retired to my bedroom and I prayed God to show me concerning these things. And I covenanted that if it was his work and he would show me so, I would put forth my best ability to bring it before the world. He said, God then

showed me that it was his work and that it was designed to bring in the fullness of his gospel to the Gentiles to fulfill his word. He said, he showed this to me by the still small voice spoken in the soul. Then I was satisfied that it was the Lord's work and I was under a covenant to bring it forth." Close quote. That's kind of the backstory with Martin Harris I think that's important for us to know is that he gained an independent witness from God, that God wanted his involvement in this

work and that the work was legit. With that much of a spiritual assurance, he slips Joseph to 50 bucks, head down to Harmony and I'd love to come and see how the work's progressing sometime later if that's okay. And Joseph says, we'd love to have you. That sets up the story when Martin comes down and says, so how's it going? This is around February of the next year and Joseph says, well, I've copied some of the characters off the plates. And I think what I'm seeing in the Armin Thummim is the translation. I have no way to verify this. I don't know if I'm getting it right. This is Joseph not having been tutored in how to

translate ancient records with seer stones and apparently Moroni didn't leave an instruction manual. So he's trying to figure this out. That's when they come up with the idea together to have Martin go back east and have him take the characters with the translation underneath and show them to ancient language experts and see if they could verify that Joseph is getting it right, number one, and to see if they can help with the translation. Maybe Joseph can outsource it to smart people. This is where that story starts to go. This is where you get the Charles Anthem story.

And I guess the part of this story we don't often see is that Joseph is feeling kind of insecure as a translator. At this time, he's only 22 years old. He's 22, all he knows is he's got the plates and he's got these stones and somehow he's supposed to get them translated. Get them translated. Maybe he could outsource, maybe he could tap into other smart people that could help him. That seems to be on his mind. Once Martin goes and gets them verified,

then Charles Antham says, those are legit, but then tell me again the story of how he got those and he says, yeah, an angel led him to the plates and this is when he says, let me see that certificate and he rips it up. He says, there's no such thing as angels in these days, but if you'll bring me the plates, I'll get them translated. By the way, years later, Charles Anthony's asked about that version of the story, which is Martin Harris' version. And he says, that's totally not true. That's not what I said. I said he's being taken for a fool and this kid's deceiving him and that if he continues with this guy, he's going to lose a lot of this kid's deceiving him and that if he continues with this guy, he's going to lose a lot of money. Martin Harris fires back and says that's not even close

to what he's saying. So, we get these two divergent stories. There's no way you or I can tell which one actually happened, but what we can tell for sure from the historical record is the actions of Martin Harris. What we know for sure is once he came back from his interaction with Charles Anthin, he was more convinced than ever that Joseph Smith was legit and that this work was from God. And he shows it by spending time as scribe for Joseph. And then he shows it even more when it comes to funding the publication of the Book of Mormon by mortgaging his farm, this man is convicted that Joseph Smith is telling the truth.

Despite challenges that will come from his wife Lucy, who keeps pushing on him and trying to get him to stop hanging out with Joseph Smith and despite persecution that's coming his way as he gets involved with this kid, he starts to lose respectability in the community. He is going to lose money, there's going to be problems that are going to come his way, and yet to his dying day, he is convinced that this was true. He will become, by the way, one of the three witnesses of the plates. He will become one of those who saw the angel and heard the voice of God bear witness that the plates were translated by the gift and power of God. He will be an immovable pillar in the restoration in terms of his witness of the Book of Mormon. That's kind of the trajectory of where this is going for Martin Harris,

who this man is and how he got involved initially. So Harris goes to Anton and he says, he told me this was a legit thing. Anton says later, oh no, I didn't. But we look at Martin when he leaves Anton's office, he's ready to give and go. Kind of makes you lean towards Martin's story, doesn't it? I think it does. Look at Martin Harris' actions.

He was convinced after that, that something real was going on here. Maybe there's a third person, Isaiah, who says, hey, I was there. He was convinced after that that something real was going on here. Maybe there's a third person, Isaiah, who says, hey, I was there. Yes. I saw it. Saw the whole thing. Oh, man.

There's so much to talk about. There is. It's just unending. And John, maybe we can link over to the episode we did with Dr. Joe Spencer on Second Nephi 27. Yeah, we can link all of these together. And you're right, Scott, how much of the history have we gone through today? Like what percentage? There's a lot we missed.

There's a lot we skipped over. But to be fair, Joseph skims a lot of the history here too in his account. So we're following his lead. We're skimming with Joseph. But yeah, there's a lot here. And I'd recommend for anyone who wants to get deeper into the history of this, Lucy Mac Smith's early history here is awesome.

Some other people who were involved in early on were Joseph Knight Sr. He records his own account of what happened here. Joseph stayed at his house while he was dating Emma as well. He's just up north in Colesville, New York. I mean, yeah, Martin Harris, that interview that I was reading from where he tells his story, that's an 1859 interview with Joel Tiffany. So, if you just Google Joel Tiffany interview, Martin Harris, 1859, you can read the whole thing. There's a lot here that's really delightful reading and at the end of the day I think it's pretty testimony strengthening honestly.

In a way we might understand how Mormon felt last year. I cannot tell you one one hundredth of what I have. I would love to share more with you. Scott, knowing you, I think we could sit down, honestly, for days, if not weeks, and walk through these stories. Scott McPherson There's so much here. It's hard to tell some of the stories and not the others. Scott McPherson Yeah. Scott McPherson So today, we're just going to have to say, hopefully that was enjoyable. Know that there's more here if you want to dig deeper and definitely go over to Joseph Smith papers and check out the resources they have there to walk through

more of the history underneath this as well. It's just so fun. It is so fun. You talked about taking groups back. I've taken groups back and I think they're shocked that I can talk the entire time. Do we have time on the bus? Oh wait, do we have time after dinner? Oh wait, everyone get up early, 5 30 in the morning. Let's talk some more. It's beautiful. Yeah, you talk all the way on the bus ride, all the way to the site, then you get off and you're like look for these things and meet me over here at this spot because I got more. I need to tell you. Yeah. And it's just. And it's exciting. It's so fun.

It's so good. John, you'll remember Scott had us envisioning the Lord with Martin forehead to forehead. I know what it's like to sacrifice for other people's salvation. Martin sell the farm. Scott Woodward, what a teacher telling us about Martin Harris. What a man. Section 19 is. And we wouldn't have section 19 if it wasn't for Martin Harris. There's another shout out. We learned some sweet things from that section. Amazing. Yeah. I'm sure these people in the spirit world are very busy and they're not paying much attention to to this but I think they would be happy with what you've done here today. Scott, you've walked us through talking about these most wonderful, wonderful souls Alvin and

Martin, Emma, Joseph. Can't thank you enough. I could listen to Scott teach, John, all day, all day. I'm sure there's listeners out there saying, don't stop, don't stop. Where can I get the extended version? Better go to Church History Matters and listen to Scott some more. Go over to Church History Matters and he'll give you more. And I love your consistent focus on relevance, relevance,

relevance, like application. Like if this stuff doesn't at the end of the day make a difference in people's lives, then what more is this than just an academic exercise? So really appreciate your focus on helping people to see like, okay, yes, these are ancient prophecies and yes, this is someone that lived whatever, a hundred and something years ago but listen like these principles can really bless your life. There's just a reminder that today being here with you thank you for helping us make sense of how this actually touches down in the lives of normal real life people like us. These are our people, our tribe. I feel connected, partly Scott I feel connected to them because I am wholeheartedly in the same work when I play my small part that I'm working with these people. They're

my people. I think that's the story, isn't it, of the theology that we just got in section two. As you step back and see the whole picture of the restoration. And Joseph will say this a couple of times in his life. He'll say, the people on the other side are working with us as we're working here. It's easy to lose sight of that picture. This movement is bigger than just those of us here in the land of the living. In fact, we are far outnumbered in the land of the dead. To just remember that we're a big part of something big, as President Nelson said, that this requires all of our best efforts and that we were called also to bring about some of God's purposes here, whatever that might be. But it's great

to be on the same team with you guys and to be on the team with those who've passed and on the other side of the veil. This is great work. It's wonderful that the Lord can take imperfect, flawed, good human beings and do this with them. Gives me hope. Yeah. We wanna thank Dr. Scott Woodward for joining us today. As always, home run every time, Scott, every time. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen,

and as always, we're on our fifth year, but we will never forget our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We're going to pick up this beautiful story on Follow Him.