Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 10-11 : Dr. J.B. Haws : Part I

Episode Date: January 31, 2021

A year after the loss of the 116 pages and Doctrine and Covenants, Section 10 shows us that God's wisdom is greater than the Adversary's cunning. Join Dr. J.B. Haws, Hank Smith, and John Bythway as they discuss how our poor choices are turned to victory through the Savior and how the phrase, "Everything happens for a reason," is bad theology. We also learn how to pray so that we spiritually "come off conqueror."Show notes available at followhim.co 

Welcome to Follow Him, a week we podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith. And I'm John by the way. We love to learn. We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow Him.

My friends welcome to another episode of Follow Him, a podcast design intended to help you with your come follow me Studies I'm here with my co-host John by the way. Hello, John. I'm Hank. How are you? Yeah, well, I am excited to be added again I can't believe we're like on episode six It's so much fun to just sit and learn from these incredible minds So every week John and I bring on what we would say is an expert in church history this year. And we have another expert with us this week. His name is JB Haas. I am so excited to have JB here because we were in our our master's program together. And we had so much fun back in those days that we would have class two and a half three hours long

and just learned so much and it was tough. It was intimidating because I just thought I can't do this. It was amazing, but we had a wonderful time and so it's so good to see JB again. Here's his bio from religious education at BYU. Says JB Haas is an associate professor of church history and doctrine at BYU currently serves as associate dean of religious education. He has a PhD from the University of Utah in American history. He's also interested in interfaith dialogue.

Before coming to BYU, we taught seminary in Northern Utah Salt Lake Weaver counties. As for his interest in history generally, he asks, how could you not be interested in history when you come from a place that in Pioneer Times was known as Muscrat Springs, which is now Hooper, not Hooper, right? But Hooper. John, thank you for bringing that up right from the outset. It's always awkward when I have to try to like work it into the conversation. So the fact that you just brought it up just warms my heart.

Let's see, he's married to the beautiful Lara Favaro, which he submits. He had another evidence miracles of not ceased. He has three boys in a daughter. They love living in provo and cheering sometimes too fanatically for the cougars. I love this part. He served as Spanish speaking mission in Raleigh, North Carolina. So he speaks Spanish with a Southern accent. I think we hear some of that JB.

Buenos dias, y'all. John, didn't your favorite show take place in in North Carolina? Is that how nice of you to mention Hank? Yes. Not just my favorite show, but the world renowned Andy Griffith show was supposed to have taken place in Mayberry, North Carolina. That's right. Right. And we might as well bring it out. We haven't had a Barney 5 impression on the podcast yet. Yeah.

This is my one request. My one request to be to join you today. Why don't you do our introduction to follow him as Barney 5? I think we want to stay on the air. Don't we? Yeah. Well, I'll just do a little Barney 5. And please, if you don't know who this is,

don't be alarmed, I'm not having some sort of medical issue. All right, everybody get ready. We're gonna do come follow him. That's how Barney 5 talks. Now, now cut that out. He talked like that. Not at all like me.

No. There's teenagers listening right now going, who? Is he having a problem? Yeah, parents are like, we'll show you later. It was the show. It was the show. You can see why none of us ever complained about going to class with John, by the way.

That was something I look forward to everywhere. We had. We'll bring more impressions, John. I know most of the impressions you can do. So I think I'll bring them on. Okay. I wanted a time throughout. So I think I'll bring them on. One at a time throughout. So people will keep listening. They'll say, what's he going to do this week?

I want to jump in here to this, this, the doctrine covenant sections that we're on this week. But I'll just say one, I just want to add one thing to JB's bio. If you, if you know JB Haas, or if you know someone who knows Dr. JB Haas, they will save the exact same thing every time. That is one of the best men that walks the planet. He is such a nice guy, such a great guy. My brother-in-law teaches seminary in Haramon and he on the group text of our extended family said, Hey, you've got to hear this BYU devotional that I just heard. And it was, it was JB Haws. And it blessed a whole lot of people. Tell us a title of that one again, JB. It was wrestling Haas and it blessed a whole lot of people tell us a title of that one again JB It was a wrestling with comparisons

Yeah, and there's there's a treasure trove at speeches dot b.w.u. Dot edu I mean, there's a ton of stuff on there, but go find a brother Haas talk on there. It'll bless your life Yeah, it will absolutely. I hope everyone will go look that up after after they finish this whole episode. Now right now, JB, you are a church history expert. And so we this week are going to be in sections 10 and 11. Now we've hit before in previous episodes, the, the loss of the 116 pages. Well, as Dr. Dirtmont would say, the stolen 116 pages, he was pretty adamant about that that I don't know why we call him lost. If someone stole my car, I wouldn't say I lost it.

I'd say someone stole it. Can you review for us, just for those maybe who are just listening for the first time or maybe just getting a good review? It's good to review. Tell us who Martin Harris is and lead us up to the loss of the manuscript. This is such a pivotal episode in Joseph Smith's life, Martin Harris's life. I mean, the fact that they just kind of come back to the so often,

it comes up in so many narratives. I think shows just how impactful this was, so many lessons learned, so much a part of the history that coming forward to the Book of Mormon. And let me say, I think this has come up in the previous episodes of your podcast, but I don't think we can give enough of an underlining of the resources on the Church's website and the Gospel Library app. So I just want to say, and I'll probably mention this a couple of times, if you go into the Come Follow Me resources, there's a big tab. This is Doctrine and Covenants Historical Resources.

Everyone should make that bookmark that, make that a first place to go. It's a one-stop shop. You can click on all the people that are mentioned in every section. You can see historical background, a lot of great images, some video clips. So it's the place to start. There's a great biography,

biographical sketch of Martin Harris there. The thing that I think probably most of us sense is that Martin Harris was a generation older than Joseph Smith, just over a generation older than Joseph Smith, just over 20 years older than Joseph Smith, and he was a well-established and respected community member and sort of the first who had that kind of community standing who believed in Joseph Smith and gave credence to what he was saying. I'm so sure that meant the world to Joseph Smith. They have someone of Martin Hares' stature and

means to provide backing and to jump in so enthusiastically to even serve as scribe. And Martin serves as Joseph's scribe from April 1828 to June 1828. And together they produce this sheath of the 116 pages of translated materials. And you can just fill Martin's excitement for what's going on. The fact that he is so enthusiastic about showing this to his skeptical wife and to other family members, he's just convinced that this material is good enough that it will it will allay their doubts and suspicions. And I think that speaks to his excitement, but also the quality of of what the material that he produced, that he's convinced this will be the missing piece.

And that's why I think he pushes so hard to let him take him. And then Joseph understandably feeling the respect he has for Martin and his esteem. I think that's what pushes him to continually impretune the Lord to let him do it. I've heard people say before, oh, you know, why did Joseph give in to Martin and as a junior faculty member at BYU, I have felt the idea of a senior faculty member wanting me to do something. And of course, I want to do something because I have that respect for them. And I know how much they've done for me. I think Joseph probably feels that same way. You've done so much for me. I think Joseph probably feels that same way. You've done so much for me.

I really want to do this for you. Yeah. Well said, I think that's so relatable. I think this is just a human, a human relatability in this relationship that it makes sense. I'm glad you used that word, JB, of just relatable because the more we've thought about this the more I've thought, yeah, and the other thing was,

Joseph just did not have the resources to publish this thing. Here's a guy who is willing who has this huge farm and who's willing to help. And maybe could he even have thought maybe the Lord provided Martin? And I think he did, you know, to financially fund the printing of the book, which he eventually does, you know, and it was fun last time to bring in President Dalin H. Oaks' talk about Martin Harris and how he needs to, what did he say? Hank, come out from under the shadow of that event, and we all remember that he did. He did a fund it became one of the three witnesses. And JB, I wanna ask you a question

and you can follow up with your response to John there, but as a church, what do you think our general feeling toward Martin Harris should be? Sometimes I think he's known for this mistake, but if I know you, you're gonna say no, no, no, he should be known much differently than me. Hey, man, I think we're all sort of Feeling that same thing and I think John pointed that out well to that all of us

I think have been in the situation where we don't want our lives to be defined by our worst mistake and I don't think martin hairs Should be defined that way either one Sort of window into his soul is the fact that these revelations call Martin Harris a wicked man and And he stayed I think that says something I mean so he stays becomes one of the three witnesses finances the printing of the book of Mormon even after that pretty Sterner buke from the Lord and let's put that in print and send it to the world. Yeah That says something that he was willing to accept that. The same thing could be said about Joseph,

that he was willing to accept the Lord's Rebuke and print it. I also think that speaks to what Martin Wester must have sensed about the authenticity of Joseph's revelations, that this was not something coming from Joseph. This was something coming from the Lord, and so he was willing to accept it, to repent, to move forward, and to stay with with the movement and become a vital piece of the movement indispensable. So I think that's a great window into a soul, something that I find remarkable.

And Hank, what does it that they do up in, is it Smithfield that they have a kind of a festival every year? I think I went to it when I was a kid. I think in Clarkston, where Mark Harris is, where Mark Harris is buried. Yeah, yeah. I'm so glad you said that. I want to it when I was a kid. I think in Clarkson, where my hair is very, yeah. Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. I want to get that wrong. Yeah, they have some sort of a remembrance. And I think his headstone is, there's a more of a monument, isn't it? Right, yes.

I seem to remember going up there as a kid. So my only pioneer ancestors, I think, only once once also settled up in a cash valley. So he was buried with a Book of Mormon in his hand. Wow. That I didn't know. Yeah. You can't love the Book of Mormon, I guess, without love and Martin Harris. Maybe one of our hopes on this podcast is to just, for our listeners, to really get a

positive view of Martin and his, his role in Joseph Smith's life, his crucial role in Joseph Smith's life. It reminds me of Peter, right, when the Lord turned to him and said, get behind me Satan, right? But Peter stuck around. He kept going. That's a good comparison. I think that not only with Martin, but with everybody in church history, I always come back to Elder Jeffrey Arholt's statement. All the Lord has ever had to work with his imperfect people. It must be incredibly frustrating to him, but he deals with it and so should we. I mean, just a great statement. Who else has he got except for some imperfect folks to try to move the work forward?

And then we find out that the Lord had planned on this mistake 2,000 years ago. Right. Like, I know how to work with these people. I just make up for their mistakes millennia in advance. We've read through what the Lord told Joseph in Martin in section three. We did that before. JB, what is what is section 10? They three in 10 are kind of right next to each other, even chronologically, at least part of section 10. What is that? How does that change in tone? What does it add? Yeah, but that's that's such a great way to look at these,

is how do we read these two together? And I think if we've all felt the anguish of section three, I mean, just the anguish that Joseph Smith was feeling and how soothing that must have been to learn that the work of God cannot be frustrated and that he had not destroyed everything that all was not lost. The full resolution of it doesn't come until section 10.

As you said, John, the timing of this is important because section 10 is one of those that's hard to date. We don't have an existing manuscript copy that's missing from the earliest collection, manuscript collection of the revelation book. So there's some trickiness to the date. But currently, the Joseph Smith papers editors have dated it to April 1829,

which seems to make a lot of sense. So we're talking about almost a full year after the loss of the 116 pages when section 10 comes that instructs Joseph how to resolve the loss of these pages. So I think that's instructive in and of itself that the resolution wasn't immediate. And Joseph moves forward in faith. He and Oliver start translating. It seems like in the midst of that translating work, that's when section 10 comes, at least in its fullest form.

There's some evidence that it might be a composite revelation, as you said, John, with pieces maybe from 1828, and then the full revelation put together in the spring of 1829. And now Joseph figures out, this is how we're going to solve this missing pages problem. And there's so much to be said there. JB, in my old scriptures that I have in front of me, my paper copy, which is about 20 years old, it says the summer of 1828, is that now changed in the good catching? That's really important for all of our listeners to know that the church in 2013 published a new printed edition and the vast majority of changes in that printed edition were in

Section headings of the Doctrine and Covenants because of the Joseph Smith papers research because of new access to the Revelation manuscript books A lot of dating issues were tweaked and and there were better dates put in and so you're right This is this is why I think it is important for all of our listeners to access the church's website and those historical resources can give you the full layout of why the dating has been changed. April 1829 is best current date now.

Yeah, and I love it. I love it that it's being updated. And the revelation becomes so much richer, I think, when we think of that timing, that Joseph is waiting for several months to figure out how do we get this resolved, how do we fix this? So, JB, when I get into section 10,

I mean, I've got two teenagers and three elementary age kids. What do I do with section 10 to make it come to life, right? To help them go, this is how this matters to me. Yeah, great. I love one of your podcasts with Tony Sweat. I love Tony's approach of setting the historical context first. And this is one of those places where the historical context, I think, just makes it come alive because the story of the anguish and the loss, everyone can relate to that feeling where

you just think, I ruined everything. Can I even come back from this? Is there any chance for me to be part of the Lord's work? And so I think I would always start with that to remind everybody, you can relate to this. This is where Joseph Smith is. And then the thing that I think just matters to all of us is the Lord's declaration in section 10.

His wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. And that's verse 43. Yeah, that is something that we can build our faith on is that God's wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil and what a reassuring promise. And so I think as we see one of the things I think section 10 can do for us, is it shows a real life historical case of how God's foreknowledge, his infinite wisdom and goodness, works together with our agency, doesn't compromise our agency, but yet still can help us when we've misused our agency, when we've made mistakes, how we can come back, and he can make it right.

And I'm glad you, that verse 43 that you mentioned, something that says right in the, the come follow me manual for individuals and families. My wisdom, the Lord said, the Joseph is greater than the cunning of the devil. And then it adds, that's a reassuring message in a day like ours, when the adversaries ongoing efforts are to weaken faith and intensifying, like Joseph,

we can be faithful and continue on in the work the Lord has called us to do. And I wanted to mention something that I can't, I mean, I'm reading 3rd Nephi 21, which kind of alludes to Joseph Smith, right? And it is verbatim. It is exactly the phrase that we're talking about in verse 43, I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. That is the exact text in 3 Nephi 2110. And I'm just wondering which came first, when was Joseph Smith translating?

And did he go, whoa, I've heard that before. Yeah. And it's talking about him too, you know? Yeah, John, as usual, you're spot on. These third Nephi parallels in section 10 are one of the one of the reasons why I think careful editors are dating this to the spring of 1829. Really? So that what seems to be happening is that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, they're encountering in the book of Mormon translation, these phrases that are also speaking to Joseph in the in his current circumstances. I think you're right to sense that these two are coming virtually simultaneously, that

he is the Lord is speaking to Joseph Smith through the translation that he's having in the book of Mormon. And that's what lends some confidence to dating this to you in spring of 1829. Well, it's been fun for me to be in that section with my students in 3521 and say look at that phrase and say who do you think this servant that's gonna be Marred and stuff? Who do you think is talking about and then to go down the footnotes and see DNC 10 to see a DNC 135 announcing the martyrdom of Joseph Smith and have them kind of connect C135 announcing the martyrdom of Joseph Smith and have them kind of connect

Those dots there is kind of a That's so I'm glad to know they are almost simultaneous. That's yeah, I think that's that's another good scripture reading tool You're very good at this and this is worth highlighting is pay attention to those kind of cross-reference connections between the scriptures to see how this Interplay is happening that the doctrine of coming is coming, as Joseph Smith is doing all of these other projects. Like the transition to the Book of Mormon. There's a lot of Book of Mormon language in section 10. You've got the other sheep I have. That's third Nephi.

Right on. Third Nephi with, I will gather them as a hen gather through chickens under our wings. That's what, a third Nephi, 10? Third Nephi. Nine? Yeah. You've got heathen in five 512, right? They're built upon my rock and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. There's the idea of contention from

3rd Nephi chapter 11, right? The people are in contention of the points of my doctrine. One thing I think I might do with my children as I look at this section, is there's oftentimes in this section, the word hearts comes up. In verse 10, it says, Satan has put it into their hearts to alter the word, which you have caused to be written. So he's talking about the manuscript there. You go to verse 13,

he has put it in their hearts to do this through lying, right? Or behold, he has put it into their hearts to tempt the, to get the to tempt the Lord thy God. That's a 15, 16 they say, and think in their hearts. We will see if God has given him power to translate. Verse 20, Satan has great hold upon their hearts. Verse 21, their hearts are corrupt. Verse 24, their hearts are filled with anger. I think this could be a good thing either with students or with my own children to say, okay, let's talk about hearts, and then let's go into this section and look at what the Lord has to say about hearts, and maybe talk about what does it feel like to have your heart stirred in anger, to your heart to be corrupt.

I think there's one later on about the hardness of their hearts in verse 53. there might be a theme there of the adversary's work is to get to your heart and to change the way you change the way you feel and see the world and see the work of God. Anything else in section 10, John and J.B. that you guys are seeing that we could point out. I love this focus on the hearts. Good stuff. And I think what you said right there at the end, Hank, this is something I think section 10 offers us is a glimpse into how the adversary works. So not only section 10 have a lot to say about the nature of God, his foreknowledge, his infinite wisdom, his ability to turn all things for our good, even things that we think are are disastersly, you know, over, but it says something about how the adversary works. are disastrously over, but it says something about how the adversary works. And I think it's, this is also something that I think all of our families can feel.

We're all in situations where we can feel this. So something jumps out at me about what the Lord reveals about the plot that's going on. So he tells Joseph you're not going to retrench those pages because there's a plot of foot to discredit you. But the interesting thing is to look at the antecedents of what this plot is. So if you look at, like for example, verse 25, what Satan doing, well, he's saying to these

conspirators, to them, to see even lie and wait to catch that you may destroy. And thus he flatters them. And who is the them? It's the conspirators and tell them that it is no sin to lie, that they may catch a man in a lie, that they may destroy him. So Satan has convinced the conspirators, hey, you're doing a good thing, because it's okay to lie, to catch this liar in a lie.

But then this next verse is so revealing about Satan. And thus he flatters them, and leadeth them along until he drageth their souls down to hell. The them and the there are the conspirators. So Satan is doing all this to drag their souls down to hell. And the thing I think is just so revealing here is that Satan wants everyone to be miserable. And so he may have swayed these conspirators convinced that they're doing a good thing, but in reality, what he's really doing is he's dragging their souls down to hell.

Hmm. And I think where this might hit us, some of us at home, is that sometimes we get caught up in that philosophy that the end justifies the means. And section 10 is this strong reminder, the end doesn't justify the means, because you may end up feeling your own soul be dragged down.

Think about times when we might find ourselves saying in a sporting event, well, if they're gonna play dirty, I'm gonna play dirty. Or we might say, my boss is underpaying me, so it's okay if I fudge a little on my hours. Someone spreads a rumor about me on social media, so it's only fair play to spread a rumor about them.

I mean, if we're gonna play hardball, I'm gonna play hardball. And all of a sudden, we hear this section 10 echoing, you know, that all the Satan's flattering us to say, it's okay to catch the lie, to catch someone in a lie, but what he's really doing is dragging our souls down the hill. Yeah. The Lord says in verse 28, woe be unto him that lies to deceive because he supposes that

another is lying to deceive, right? So these conspirators are like, well, this guy, Joseph Smith, he's a terrible person. I've got a lie to take him down and it's okay. It's okay that I'm doing this. Wow, I don't like that verse because it really cuts to my heart because I think there's times where I think, you know, oh, well, they're so awful and terrible. It's, you know, what, they deserve it. And the Lord is saying, whoa, watch out, warning, this is not okay.

That's a great insight. I hear you, Hank. I think whenever I find myself wanting to justify, justify, this is not okay. That's a great insight. I hear you, Hank, I think whenever I find myself wanting to justify, justify, that's the word, right? Justify my means because I think I'm somehow, I'm somehow ending for a noble end. This is a kind of section that can call me up short to say that I'm playing right into the adversaries game plan.

And JB, I love what you're saying about Satan's still. It's not like their pals with Satan. You're still going to drag them down to hell. And it reminds me, I put in my margin that verse 26 sounds a lot like the very last verse in the Korohor story, Alma 3060, and kind of a couple of thus we see. And also it reminds me of isn't an almond amulk that say to Ziezram, this was the plan of thine adversary. And I've always looked at that word, not the adversary, but he's against you too, Ziezram. And he's going to take you down to Ziezram. And the cool thing about Ziezram is

all of a sudden his gotcha questions and this whole thing is a gotcha. Ziezram's gotcha questions become sincere. So it's good for Zezram's gacha questions become sincere. So it's good for Zezram. Another thing I thought was cool is in verse 45, here they set up this plot, they stole the manuscript, and it worked, and the final product ends up being better.

Look at verse 45, there are many things engraven upon the plates of Nephi, he's telling him, go get instead of the book of Lehigh, go get Nephi's account, which do throw greater views upon my gospel. You try and mess it up and it ends up being better. And that kind of can go back to how we teach our kids. Hey listen, his wisdom is greater. And so just make sure your life's okay with with God or all the things you'll go through, but God can even turn those things that go badly and make them better for you and for for all of us.

That's really great, John. I wonder if Nephi is pretty proud of Yeah, that's right. At that moment, like, hey, I I wrote well, thank you. Yeah, I threw some greater views on the gospel. Nephi and Jacob high five up there. Yeah, that's right. That was us. I Think this section also I've found it really powerful to address what can kind of become like pop theology that that also can be bad theology I think harm harmful theology sometimes one of the things that I think We hear a lot and sometimes all of us are tempted to say is everything happens for a reason and I think sometimes that's kind of pop fatalism

To say what people sometimes mean is everything happens because God wants it to happen And so if we say everything happens for a reason and we mean everything happens because it's got part of God's plan Then that's false doctrine. I think that's really potentially harmful doctrine if we say everything happens for a reason And sometimes those reasons are because I'm dumb and I'm I sing I make mistakes. Yeah, then it works, but we can't miss that part that everything happens because God wants it to happen. That's false doctrine. Yeah, God did not want them to sin and lie and to see being go. And and God didn't want Martin and Joseph to lose the 116 pages. He warned them against it, but he allows agency. But here's the part that I think can be so redemptive about this section,

is because if we first of all come to grips with the fact that God did not want this to happen, but that as Hank said, this is a miracle, two and a half millennia in the making, God still can work all things together for a good. He doesn't want us to sin. He doesn't want us to make bad choices. But when we return to him and repent, he still can turn all things to our good and can still make them end result better.

Something greater than it would be without God. He's that kind of God, a God of the silver linings. He's that powerful. And something else that the manual says is to look for the I linings. He's that powerful. And something else that the manual says is to look for the I.M.s and the I.Wills. And I'm looking now on my ancient paper scriptures at 50, 57, 58, 59. And I.M.I.M.I.M.

60, 61, 62. I've underlined I.Will, I.Will,. I will. And so we're seeing here's men's plans, evil plans being frustrated, but we're teaching our children. Hey, we can rely on God. Look, look how he's restating the end. Hey, I am Jesus Christ. I am the son of God. I came to my own. I'm the light which shines in darkness. I am he who said other sheep I have, which Hank mentioned. And then I will show, I will bring, and I will also bring. And this will I do that I may establish my gospel.

So it's kind of a, Martin Joseph, this is my church. I got this and rely on me and listen to what I say. I love that. That's a fun tension, JB, that I think we need to be, that's a, it's a spiritual, sense of spiritual maturity, that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil or your mistakes, Joseph. My wisdom is greater than your mistakes, but I don't want you to make these mistakes, right?

There's a difference between God planned on him making this mistake and God wanted to make this mistake. And he tells him, I don't want you to be conquered by this. He says, pray always that you may conquer. That you may conquer Satan and escape the hands of the servants of Satan that do his help, they'll pull this work. So the idea is the Lord is saying, my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. I want your wisdom to become greater than the cunning of the devil, I want your wisdom to become greater than the cunning of the devil.

Right? I want you to pray always so you can have that same sense about you. I love the tension there between God knew I was going to make a mistake and he's going to help me make it right versus God wanted me to make that mistake or, you know, design for me to make that mistake. And all of a sudden, I'm not. I don't have to do anything. The Lord's saying, well, I want you to make that mistake. And all of a sudden, I'm not, I don't have to do anything.

The Lord's saying, Well, I want you to pray always. And how do I do that? How do you pray always? Obviously, Lord doesn't mean I'm kneeling by my bedside always. So what does that phrase mean? Well, I can't wait to hear what both of you have to say,

but I love an elder bed and our thought. Probably many of us remember when he suggests about conference, about the way he thinks about his morning and evening prayers working together. That he sort of starts the day in this morning prayer with plea for help and a commitment to be in tune with the spirit and to be listening. And then he sort of sees his evening prayers

as kind of these moments of accountability and reflection on the day. And I think there's something about that attitude that we see are the start and end of our days, book ended by prayer in a way that we are cognizant, we're thinking, we're conscious of the fact that we're always looking to God for help and for wisdom, that we see that as both a plea for help and then a reporting reflection and a plea to do better the next day. Yeah, there's a temple theme there of, I'm going to spiritually prepare my day. And then, or spiritually planet, spiritually see it. Then I'm going to go out and physically do it. Then I'm going to come back and return and report on how close the spiritual plan and the actual doings lined up together. And I like that idea that then every prayer is connected and it's a pray always.

It's a it's you know by definition I'm praying always because my my prayers are a constant part of my day. I was just thinking of the idea of having a always a prayer in your heart. Yeah, we're not talking about kneeling down all day but. having always a prayer in your heart. Yeah, we're not talking about kneeling down all day, but I'm thinking of Tevia and Fiddler on the roof that was having this constant dialogue with the Lord. And I think we all do that. I think we see things, or boy, I'm grateful for that.

And you see something else. And if the Lord is the only one who knows your thoughts, I feel like you are praying all the time in a way. I was going to add one other thing from section 10. The word destroy comes up a lot. I look for these little patterns and you can see it in verse six. They have sought to destroy you.

They just ought to destroy your gift. Joseph in verse seven, verse 19, we will destroy him. They lie in wait to destroy your gift Joseph in verse seven verse 19. We will destroy him They lie in wait to destroy. I think John you've taught me this There's a poem about it's so much easier to destroy something Then it is to build something do you remember that yeah the builder and the record it's not original with me, but Let's see I passed one day through little town and saw him in tearing and building down with a ho-heave ho and a husky yell,

they swung a beam and a sidewall fell. I asked the foreman, are these men skilled, the kind they'd hire if they had to build? Oh no, he chuckled no indeed. The common laborers all I need, why I can destroy in a day or two, what builders have taken weeks to do. I said to myself, as I went on my way, which of these roles have I tried to play? Am I a builder who works with care, strengthening lives of our ruling square, shaping my peers to a well made plan, helping them do the best they can or am I a record who walks around content with the labor of tearing down. Wow.

I did not know if you would have memorized. It was like the first talk I ever gave in the 90s. The 1900s, that's probably not. No, it was 1890s. Destroying something is not a sign of intellect, right? Being able to criticize someone or take them down or point out flaws in people, we often see that online as, wow, I'm so smart. Look at all the ways I can point out the problems, right? Where

the Lord is so busy building and doing the careful, difficult work of building, where Satan is doing the easy work of destroying. And I just wanted to say this and I'll hand it over to you to verse 33, the Lord tells Joseph Smith, Satan, think of to overpower your testimony. He's still doing it today. I would say to my teenage friends, don't be overly concerned when someone's trying to destroy Joseph Smith because it's going to happen

until the Lord comes again. Satan is going to try to destroy Joseph's gifts, his work, everything he's about to do, and we gotta be, I don't want to say we gotta be okay with that, but that's gotta be something we go, oh, yeah. That's prophecy fulfilled. I've used that verse. Our kids have heard about the war in heaven.

I love to ask, well, what were our weapons? Did we have a spiritual F-16? What are we fight with? Usually a little puzzled because you can't kill a spirit. We're immortal beings, so how does this work? We eventually come up, you know, get to the book of Revelation. They overcame by the blood of the Lamb, which is amazing since the Savior hadn't sacrificed his life yet, amazing since the Savior had the sacrifice to his life yet, by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their Testimony. Oh our testimony of Christ was the weapon and That's what Satan will seek to overpower in Joseph and in all of us JB pointed out the the pronouns

When we're talking about them, the enemies. Lookin' verse 48, this was their faith is talking about the Nephites who produced the record that my gospel, which I give unto them, that they might preach in their days might come unto their brother and the Lamanites and also that all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions. Now, this is not all their faith in their prayers was that this gospel should be made known also if it were possible that other nations should possess this land. And I was reminded of Enus's prayer. I always make my students look at the order of the things that Enus prayed for. Do you remember what the first thing he prayed for was? himself. himself. next was

his own family. my brother in the knee fights. and the Lord doesn't really tell him. the Lord's like, oh, I'll do with them what I promised. and then he prays for who? the Lamanites. Lamanites. and the Lord is more positive. yeah, I'm gonna take who? The Lamanites. Lamanites. And the Lord is more positive.

Yeah, I'm gonna take care of the Lamanites. And then he prays for the records. And I just put Enis in the footnote here, because I thought this is, he's answering the prayer of Enis that I'm gonna preserve that record and it is going to go forth to the Lamanites and to anybody that possesses this land.

I thought, that's the an answer to Ennis there. So I love that, John. I can almost hear the Lord saying, I made a promise. Yeah, I intend to keep it. And I'm sure Ennis wasn't the only one, but that's just kind of stuck out. Amen. I think that's such a great thing. I think you both underscored that so well. I mean, it's just a reminder that that section one pro, what the Lord have spoken, I've spoken, and it shall all be fulfilled. These promises and prophecies and promises will be fulfilled. And I think that attention to the promises

with the records, so you had well said to both of you. Yeah, and I'm grateful God keeps His promises. This verse 21 is really interesting to me. This might go back to Hank, your thought about, how do we pray always. This is again talking about the conspirators that are having this plot. Their hearts are corrupt and full of wickedness

and abominations and they love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. Therefore, they will not ask of me. And I'm not even quite sure how to articulate this, but this has just been, this one's just been jumping off the page at me that I think sometimes again we, if we're not careful, we might say that the conspirators are them rather than us, but sometimes I wonder if this is also us that do I find myself resistant about asking the Lord because I don't want the answer or that I don't really want to humble myself

and face that perhaps there are some things I need to change. And that such an interesting phrase, they will not ask of me. The problem with the conspirators, they just refuse to find out, could it be possible that Joseph Smith really is a prophet? They wouldn't even find out. They wouldn't even ask. That's because, and so this idea of asking myself,

do I love light and darkness? And am I willing to humble myself to pray that, I wonder if that's part of this praying always attitude that I'm willing to humble myself that way? Oh, I hate to admit this, but there are times where I've thought to myself, I don't wanna go into that spiritual place because I know what I'm going to hear.

And it's going to hurt. And so I'll just avoid it. I'll go distract myself with a good season of Netflix or something. You know, because I'm like, I know what the Lord's going to say. And I don't, it's going to hurt, right? I've told the youth that I've spoken to before. How many of you have felt guilty and felt that sting? I have. How many of you have tried to avoid that and get away from that. And sometimes I do this with my own self. And I take and encourage all of our listeners to do this. It's just let it sting for a moment. Right. Just let it. Just sit in it for a moment. Instead of avoiding it, let it sting. Let that guilt hit you. Because then if you'll just let that sit for a minute,

you because then if you'll just let that sit for a minute, you'll hear the end of the section. I am Jesus Christ. I am the light which shines in the dark. I am and I will, I will, I will. That comfort could come, but you got to face the music, right? That's verse 21. It's beautiful. That's another way that praying always can help us come off conqueror to conquer that tendency. That's beautiful. The church has not been formally organized, you know, in Fayette. I know that Carl Anderson would say that largely the church was organized in Kirtland. But verse 67, behold, this is my doctrine,

whosoever repenteth and come up unto me, the same is my church. That is a large definition of church. And there are a lot of people who love Jesus and are trying to follow him throughout the world. I wondered if you could respond to what's the definition of a church at this time or throughout the Scriptures, JB? I think you're right.

I think this should expand our idea or maybe another way of saying it is it should give us a sense that the church can have multiple meanings. And so this is pre-formal organization of the Church of Christ, April 6, 1830. And I wonder if this also has some resonance for 1st Nephi 13 and 14, as the way we think about there are two churches on. Yeah. Stephen Robinson's great comment that this is not about membership records. This is about who has your heart. Not about who has your records, who has your heart. Yeah, let's give the reference. Find the article called Warring Against the Saints of God

by Stephen Robinson. And it's a commentary on 1st Nephi 13 and 14, which is Nephi's vision of Lehigh's dream in greater detail. And it's such a great resource. Such a great reference. I'm, and that was impressive again, John. You know, not only not raising poems,

we just have that off the top of your head. Well, I, in my class, I do it. So don't be impressed, please. No, I, I still am impressed. It makes me think of the Orson Whitney quote that Ezertab Benson also quoted that the work of God is bigger than just we, as a, as a Latter-day Saint people can do,

and that he is using good people all over the earth and they are our partners in this sense. And I think we, that expansive definition of church and that God's working with all good people fits really well with the West Section 10 is. And I think it fits really well with a Latter-day Saint cosmology, the way we think of the universe, and the way we think of post-mortal preaching in the spirit world, and that all good people who are working toward God can be used by God and can be influenced by Him and are part of His work, His Church. One last thing in section 10, in verse 63, it says, the Lord says, they do rest the scriptures and do not understand them. As a reader of scripture, I might not know what that means.

They do rest the scriptures. Yeah, I think there are maybe a couple of examples that we could think about. Maybe this comes back to our idea of justification against self-justifying. If we use the scriptures, we twist them, we manipulate them to fit a definition that makes us feel better about ourselves

or that contradicts some aspect of God's gospel that creates introduces confusion. An example that maybe comes to mind is how Jacob really rebuked the men of his time who were using David and Solomon as justification for committing hordoms. And he rebuked them for resting the scriptures that way that that they were they were twisting justifying manipulating the scriptures. Another good example might be doctrine in covenant 74 when the Lord helps clarify a first Corinthians passage that had for a long time been used to justify infant baptism. This was read wrong. It was rested in a way to to to change an ordinance of practice and to justify it as people were reading it, reading too much into it. Okay, so if I were to define this term, it's using the scriptures to justify behaviors

that I know, you know, that probably deep down, I know are not, they're out of the strength of Satan pamphlet, I should not be doing it. But I can find it in the scriptures. Right. Right. Yeah. And manipulate them and just find what I'm doing. And it might be done by being ripping it out of context or to reading something into it. Sometimes I think they could even be done in a well-meaning way, but where you're forgetting the whole of the scriptures, you're focusing too much on one verse in isolation and not seeing how this could work in the overall tapestry

of what the gospel is. Yeah. Some ways, that might be the more tendency for us. I think for people listening, they might hear the word rest. And all this has a W in front of it. This is rest with the, this is wrestle. This is wrestling.

Wrestling. And I'm gonna, I have a son who's wrestling in this high school right now, and he attacks. Wrestling and I'm gonna, I have a son who's wrestling in this high school right now and he attacks me daily and tries to, tries to twist me and bend me in places I just don't want to go. So, when I think, when I see rest, I think that's the first syllable of wrestle. I'm gonna wrestle with the scriptures and make him conform and pin them down to what I want them to mean.

Wow, that's very, very good. That's a great analogy. That is a perfect analogy. Take down. So this is from February of 1978. This is a first presidency statement. Beautiful. Says the great religious leaders of the world, such as Muhammad, Confucius, and their reformers, as well as philosophers, including Socrates, Plato, and others received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.

Now, listen to this last piece, it almost sounds like an article of faith. We believe that God has given and will give to all people sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation. We've always had this view of there are others outside of the church who receive inspiration from God to help others on their way to eternal life.

I love this idea. Yes. Outside of our formal church organization, they could also be in the Lord's church. I mean, section 18 is at verse 20 that says, contend against no church. Save it be the church of the devil, which tells us what, don't contend against good. You know, there is a church of the devil out there

and there's a broader church of God. That's a fun one to ponder and wrestle. The wrestle and think about. It is so much. I think we could, we, and JB, you're, you're, you're part of the religious outreach program at BYU. So the idea that we're all on the same team here is a big part of your message, right?

Oh, yeah. And you know, and I, I would say also for all of us to pay attention to this, keep this in the back of our heads when we come to section 35, what the Lord says to Sydney Righdon, uhdon. Sidney Rigdon, you know, how the Lord really praises him as a John the Baptist sort of figure and preparing the way. And I think there's just something powerful in thinking more broadly about the God's working with His children and inspired people who love him and are operating working with his spirit following and trying to bring more and more people to him as that great quote you shared Hank, I mean that they're lifting whole nations.

That's I love that that idea. Yeah and this is a great, I hope gives our listeners something to do when they're confronted with the first Nephi there save two churches only Church the Lamb of God the Church of devil if you're not in the Church of Lamb God you're in the Church of devil and this it that's okay That's one verse, but let's look at all the verses that refer to a church. Let's let's look at that statement of of Hank and I think I like what you said JB that there there could be multiple meanings like there are so many times in the scriptures with certain words. And that helps us to have a charitable spirit as we look at what this could be.

It all mean. Yeah, excellent. Man, I just really like that. We could talk about, we could talk about this forever. That was, it has to be one of the things, as we've heard in other, in previous podcast, John, is that one thing that really bothered this miss was the idea that people told them

because Alvin wasn't part of the right church, he's going to hell forever. And yet we can kind of get caught up into that. My church is true, your church is, therefore your church is false, Ty. Yeah, and false. Yeah, and false, false, that, false dichotomy, it's this or it's this, yeah.

Yeah, right yeah something that I I'm really grateful that our our Latter-day Saint leaders have been emphasizing recently in in some very public proclamations reminding people what Joseph Smith said about religious liberty and religious tolerance and the kind of city ordinances they put in place in Navu welcoming people of all all faiths and and and and Joseph Smith saying that he has been proven that he's willing to die for Latter-day Saint, he's just as willing to die for a Presbyterian or a Catholic, and that kind of generous heart, that fits, I think,

with the Prophet of the Restoration, and it fits with what we are hearing in these revelations about the way God views his children. I love that generous spirit. I think that's part of the arithmetic of the restoration. When I personally think of the church of the devil, I don't think of any church really at all. I think of the pornography industry making more than major league baseball, the NBA, the NFL combined.

That's what we contend against. That's where fighting again. It's what Stephen Robinson in that article calls it the great nabominable. He uses the definition and maybe in this chapter It's historical, but in this chapter it's typological first and the 13th and the 5th 13th historical Persony 514 is more like all disassociated evil united against what God hates That's I think how he defines it there. I listen to Christian radio all the time and I'm just so many times I'm driving thinking I'm so grateful that these folks are there. I'm sorry sometimes they misunderstand what I think or but I'm so glad that there's so many good people like this.

Please join us for part two of this podcast.