Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 102-105 Part 2 : Dr. Scott Woodward

Episode Date: September 12, 2021

Dr. Woodward continues discussing the calling and makeup of Zion’s Camp, corporate blessings, and how the Lord intends to provide for every Saint. Was Zion’s Camp a failure? How the Lord uses sacrifice as a training ground for the temple, Zion, and the Second Coming is discussed.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. It was interesting as they start to go out to recruit. In fact, that's what verses 29, 30, then over verse 37, 38, 39, 40, the Lord puts them in companionships of recruiting companionships. There's eight men that are going to go out and recruit people for this expedition. They'll call it the camp of Israel. Later on, we call it Zion's camp, but they originally called it the camp of Israel. And in their recruiting, they came across one Wilford Woodruff. He was already a member of the

church, but he was being recruited to join this expedition. And I wanted to share a thought from Wilford Woodruff. He said this. He said that as he was sort of settling his business affairs and preparing to join the camp of Israel, some of his friends and neighbors warned him not to undertake such a hazardous journey. They said, do not go. If you do, you will lose your life." And that's exact phrase that the Lord just said here, right? Lose your life for my sake or lay down, lay down your life. Here's how Wilford Woodruff replied. He said, quote, if I knew that I should have a ball put through my heart, the first step

I took in the state of Missouri, I would go. That's a discipleship right there. The Lord says, you know that Wilford is a disciple in verse 28 according to those standards. And so I like that story to tell in verse 27-28. And Wilford had just joined the church, December 31, 1833 1833 and here this is just a couple months later and Find it how old was he Hank because in that movie mountain of the Lord he looks pretty young Wilford Woodruff was baptized December 31st 1833. He's just 26 27 years old and a new convert of what? four five months And he's ready to put his life on the line there.

The Lord says, you want to know what discipleship looks like. That's what it looks like. Yeah. That's awesome. Will Ferduodruff. Yeah, I wonder if he ever amounts to anything. Yeah, I'm a traitor. Yeah.

I'm from the Hamlet. Now that guy. Yeah. That'd be an interesting story to follow. Maybe hammer of that guy. Yeah. That would be an interesting story to follow. Pick up that thread. Now the Lord says in terms of numbers, he would prefer 500, he says in verse 30. And if you can't do 500, then 300. If you can't do 300, then 100.

And if you can't do 100, don't go. He says at least at least 100, but 500 would be awesome, right? That would be my recommendation. And so they go out recruiting. So 205 men, 10 women and like six children. Yeah. So that's going to be what they're ultimately get. They're going to leave. So Hiram Smith and his group, they go up actually to Michigan to recruit up there. They get about 20 people and Joseph Smith and those in the Curtin area get about 85. And then they start marching together to meet. They'll meet together in Missouri on June 8th. So they're recruiting all along the way until the biggest it gets then is 205 men, 10 women and six children. Now, if you want a verse to cross stitch and put on your wall,

you want a little handout to give to the youth. Verse 36. 36. So good. John, you want to read it? You want to talk to it? It's marked. Yeah.

All victory and glory is brought to pass on to you through your diligence, faithfulness and prayers of faith. That's a good cross stitch. Yeah. That is a good cross stitch. All of those people listening saying, what's cross stitch? That was awesome. I love the image of Joseph Smith standing up in the meeting

saying, I'm going to Zion, is it a good idea? There is a good idea. Who will go with me? Yeah. I'm going to be funny to vote. Yes, it's a good idea. Will you go? I have bought some land.

I have bought some oxen and have to prove them. I have married a wife. Yeah. Yeah. You might die in verse 27 and 28. Yeah. Yeah. You could you could die. Who's still with me? By the way, and Who's still with me?

And that's amazing, right? Did they have 200 and how many does that add up? 221, 15 plus six, what? 221 people. 211 people. 221 people that are willing to lay down their lives for the gospel's sake. Oh, for Zion's sake in this instance, right.

Wow. So this section 104, yeah, it kind of kind of fits in the context here, because the issue is what to do about the United firm. United firm, some of your listeners may recall section 78, commanded its creation section 82 is the day that it happened in Missouri. It was the uniting of the Kirtland leaders and the Missouri leaders in a united financial group that would oversee the printing of church publications, holding church properties in trust, assisting the poor.

It's basically the first corporate management system of the financial corporate management of the church. We're talking about primarily three places. We're talking about the Sydney Gilbert and Whitney store in Missouri, it was a dry goods store, a mercantile shop. Then we have the WW Phelps and companies print shop in Missouri also. That was the literary firm that produced Scripture. Then the third major player was back in Kirtland,

which was the Nuel K. Whitney mercantile store. And they were money makers for the church. Well, what happens when a mob destroys the printing press in Missouri and the dry goods store in Missouri? What kind of a united firm do you have left when you only have one one you just got the the Kirtland store right and so they actually got together on April 10th they the united firm those that could meet and they voted we dissolve the firm. It's only it's two years old by this point right And and so section 104 is the Lord

basically ratifying that decision. That's a good idea on the 23rd of April. So this is now right they met on the 10th now in the 23rd. The Lord is ratifying and saying, let me let me tell you how I feel about that. He takes this opportunity to teach. And he says, now the reason why an adjustment to the firm needs to take place is because, here he goes. This was intended, verse one, to be an everlasting firm. Every time you see the word order in this section, just you just cross that out and write the word firm.

That was just a pseudonym put in later to disguise the fact that this was anything about finances. So the enemies of the church who wanted to litigate wouldn't wouldn't know to come after that thing. United firm, United order, same thing. He says this was meant to be an everlasting order with a promise verse two, immutable and unchangeable that as long as you were faithful, you would receive a multiplicity of blessings. But if were faithful, you would receive a multiplicity of blessings. But if not faithful, then they were not in the cursing. He says, but in as much verse three, but in as much as they were not faithful, they were not in the cursing. Therefore,

in as much as some of my servants, you know who you are, it was it was Sydney Gilberts and it was W. W. Phelps have not kept the commandment, but have broken the covenant through covetousness and with famed words, I have cursed them with a very sore and grievous curse. And I have to create in my heart that inasmuch as any man belonging to the order shall be found a transgressor or breaks the covenant that he will be cursed in his life and will be trot and down. This is pretty strong language. I the Lord, I'm not to be mocked in these things. The Lord is as merciful as the day is long, but when he's dealing with covenant breakers who are consistently repeated offenders here,

this is what he's talking to here. Let me give you some context on what he means by covetousness and famed words. Actually, I have a little excerpt from a letter that on the 14th of January 1833, not quite a year earlier, Kirtlin leaders wrote this letter to Edward Partridge about a letter that we don't have a copy of as far as I know that Sydney, Sydney Gilbert had written them in December, right? I guess it was pretty pretty snarky. He said things, he said things, this is the words we have, it says, brother, Sydney Gilbert's letter of December 10th has been received and read attentively, and the low, dark, and blind, and simulations were in it, were not received by us as from the fountain of light.

Though his claims and pretensions, the holiness were great, we are not unwilling to be chasing or rebuke for our faults, but we just want to receive it in language we can understand. Like Nathan said the day, but thou art the man. Just tell us what you have against us. No insinuations and dark sort of in-new window here. He said, they said, we are aware that brother Gilbert is doing much and a multitude of business on hand, but let him purge out the old leaven and do his business in the spirit of the Lord. And the Lord will bless him, otherwise the frown of the Lord will remain upon him. And then they say this, him. Otherwise, the frown of the Lord will remain upon him." And then they say this, there is manifestly an uneasiness in Brother Gilbert, and a fearfulness that God will not provide for his saints in their last days, and these fears lead him on to covetousness. This ought not so to be,

but let him do just as the Lord has commanded him, and then the Lord will open his coffers, and his wants will be liberally supplied. But if this uneasy covetous disposition be cherished by him, the Lord will bring him to poverty, shame, and disgrace. Wow, that's a, that's a rebuke. Un-easy, uneasy covetousness disposition. Okay, you don't want one of those.

And that letter, that is a response to a letter from Sidney Gilbert and who wrote that letter? So this was written, it says from Kirtlin Church leaders to Edward Partridge, who was the leader over in Missouri and they're just saying, listen. That's a massive letter. Yeah. Yeah, the letter we got from Sidney Gilbert was not, that was not becoming of a member of the United firm. That's not how it should go.

So covetousness and feigned words, felps had also said things like, well, what are you gonna do with my press and my printing stuff? And Joseph Smith's like, woo, my, my stuff? Whose press is that? Well, William, yeah, is it not the Lord's press? How did you come to have that press?

Right? Careful, careful that you don't forget that this is because of the consecration of the saints. Yeah. And so you can see, so human nature is just getting woven in here. And the Lord is saying, you want to know why the United Firm needs to be dissolved? Well, it's because that kind of stuff has crept in. What lessons might there be, you know, for us, as we think about covenant breaking, the Lord is serious,

especially when it's repeated. You've been warned again and again by leaders. This is over a year earlier, they're warning him to repent to this kind of thing. And he clearly did not. And so the Lord's stepping it up a little bit in intensity, here, isn't he? I think this is a good, it's a good gut check for all of us, right? Watch out for those that covetous disposition that can just ruin things in your life.

And the other part of this, Scott, that I'm hearing is I kind of like that these men were very human. And they said they said things sometimes they shouldn't have said. I'm hoping Sidney Gilbert repents here and comes around. But you know, he reminds them of how this system is supposed to work versus 11 through 18 remind us the outline the principles that do undergird the Lord's system of stewardship that we should remember. For instance, we could highlight quickly verse 14 that remember that all things in the earth that God built are mine, he says, it is my purpose to provide for my saints.

He repeats it again for all things are mine. It must needs be done in my own way. And behold, this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints that the poor shall be exalted in that the rich are made low. The Lord invites those who've been blessed with abundance to help the poor rise and thrive and it's without compulsion. And when the rich withhold their goods, Zion suffers.

And the Lord is going to talk more about that as we go on in section 105. But that's all along the way. It's covetousness, it's selfishness. It's thinking, me, my, me, my, the Lord saying, remember, it's mine and you are a steward, you are a steward, you are a steward. Nevertheless, verse 17, the earth is full and there is enough and to spare, yay, I prepared all things and have given unto the children a men to be agents unto themselves. Therefore if a man shall take of the abundance

which I have made and impart not his portion according to the law of my gospel and the poor and the needy, he shall with the wicked lift up his eyes and hell being in torment. You can totally choose what you want to do with the abundance and have given you, but listen, right? This is my way. If you are my covenant people, I am asking you to give of your abundance, what you got from me to help bring up, help exalt the poor, help build Zion. And that, that seems like that lesson just has not sunk in and has not sunk in and has not sunk in. That's caused problems in Missouri in their expulsion. And now it's causing the end of the United firm. That is what's happening here. That's a, I think that, that end of verse 18, that's a direct reference to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, right? And he just,

he just wouldn't even give Lazarus the crumb off his table, right? Lazarus just wanted the crumbs from the table and he said, no, I'm not going to give it to you. And it's a fantastic parable. And this seems to be a lesson your rights got. He's staying over and over again. Selfishness will destroy Zion. Yeah, it hasn't sunk in yet, apparently. It's hard to do to not not to read this and point fingers at ourselves.

I mean, that's a good application of this. Am I like this? Because I always look at them and think they had less than we do now. It's easy also, John, to look at people who have more than me and say, yeah, they should be giving, right? I hope so and so reads this verse. You know, who really needs this verse. Not me, of course, I'm fine. I'm doing great. So we don't want to go through all of 104 in I think all the details. Let me summarize a few things and then if listeners want to dig deeper, I think they should. Verses 19 through 46 is like kind of one big section where the Lord says,

listen, here's what we're going to distribute the the Kirtland properties that were sort of managed by the United firm as personal stewardship to members of the firm in Kirtland. And he goes through each person in the firm and he says, this is your stewardship, this is your stewardship. And if you if you do well and you you you let's see, he repeats over and over again, he says, this will be your stewardship. This is your stewardship. And if you do well, you, you, you, let's see, he repeats over and over again. He says, this will be your stewardship under which you shall be appointed unto them. And as much as they are faithful, I will bless and multiply blessings upon them.

He says that over and over after each stewardship, you be faithful and you're going to get blessed abundantly. I'm seeing the names here, Scott, Sidney Rigden, verse 20, Martin Harris, John Johnson, Frederick Williams, Oliver Cowdery, 28. Is that, no, okay, Whitney, 39. So he's just distributing out what is left to the individuals. To the individuals.

That's right. This is gonna be your stewardship. It's in your own personal name, but remember who who it is. Remember who it is. Yeah. So he's giving them back things like the property you live on, like, okay, what, in the universe 39, I appointed to you the house and a lot where he now resides.

That's now your stewardship. The place you already lived or you're living and also your store and things that he was already interested in, right? Already had some stewardship over but this is now just officially dissolving the ties with Missouri. I wouldn't be a good friend to my friend, Juliette Sornson, who's serving in Kirkland. If I didn't point out the Ashery in verse 39, if you go on a tour to, if you go on a tour to Old Curtlyn, do you can see the Ashery?

And it made them quite a bit of money. It was one of the few things, few business ventures that actually was profitable for them. Yeah, and so Juliet, that one is for you. That's so cool. And that's how my children pronounce their oldest sister's name for a long time. Ashley, they pronounce ashrie.

For a long time. Ashrie. Hey. I'm glad that's a nice little tie in there, John. Yeah, if you've been to Kirtland, that's fun to tour that. And they made soap there, right, Hank? Yeah, they made the pot ash,

which they could sell. Yeah, the potash. Potash. Potash. Yeah, so then verse 47 through 53 is where the Lord officially dissolves the United Firm. Look at verse 53 says, sadly verse 52, the covenant being broken through transgression by covetousness and feigned words. Therefore you are dissolved as a United Order. Verse 48, he says, let's have a United Order of, or United Firm of the State of Zion and Curtlyn, and let's have a total

separate one called the United Firm of the City of Zion. So that ends right there, the joint association of the firm. Verses 54 to 59 just reviews again some of the principles and purposes for their stewardship. My favorite is in 58.59. This is kind of a cool perspective about scripture. Look at this. If you want to know how the Lord feels about printing scripture and why he thinks that it's worth the funds that it takes to print scripture, listen what he says here. He says that in verse 58, he's talking about printing my words, the fullness of my scriptures, the revelations of the doctrine. Covenants, we've been talking about

he says verse 59, here's why, for the purpose of building up my church and the kingdom on the earth and to prepare my people for the time when I shall dwell with them, which is nigh at hand. I don't know how often I think about scriptures as the instruments that God has given us to help prepare for his second coming. The instruments God has given us to build the church and the kingdom of God on earth. It is a one by one thing that the scriptures do, right, with in our own hearts helping us become pure. But then there's also this aggregate thing happening as the as the 11 of the scriptures continues to influence us. It's preparing for Jesus to return. And Jesus thinks that's worth the investment

to get scriptures out to people. And that's awesome. Yeah, that is beautiful. And the amount of scripture we print today. Oh man, yeah. It's just astronomical. Can you imagine showing these men, these people of Jill Smith's time, the hundreds of millions of copies of the Book of Mormon that have been

printed? You know, 120 languages that were right or whatever it is, you know. And now we're giving them out for free. We're giving them out for free to anyone who wants a copy. That speaks to the consecration of enough saints today that we're seeing the impact when you consecrate, look how God can build Zion through the consecration of the many members. I mean, it's phenomenal what's happening today. Verse 60 to 77, command the establishment of two treasuries, one for printing scriptures specifically, and one treasury for all other proceeds from their stewardship that different farms or the Nulke Whitney store, etc.

And then, versus 78 through 86, gives counsel on how to get out of debt. That instruction to pay all your debts reminded me of section 19 when Martin Harris was told pay the debt that has contracted with the printer release thyself from bondage and this kind of interesting to see. Scott, I've heard you share something before about debt that from profits more in our time that I thought would be helpful for our listeners. So yeah, let's get some perspective on debt. Not all of it is, you know, you got to get rid of it all right now. For instance, other Joseph B. Worthlin, he said, that some debt such as for a modest home, expenses for education, perhaps for a needed first car, maybe necessary, right?

President Hinckley said that in the financial operations of the church, we've observed two basic and fixed principles. Presently said one, the church will live within its means. It will not spend more than it receives to a fixed percentage of the income will be set aside to build reserves against what might be called a possible rainy day. For years, the church has taught its membership, the principle of setting aside a reserve of food, as well as money, to take care of emergency needs that might arise, and we are only trying to follow the same principle for the church as a whole. So yeah, you might need some debt to begin with.

And this particular scenario that the Lord's talking about with them is different than I think most of us are going to find ourselves in. But I think the general principle does apply. Let's live within our means, let's pay off our debts when that makes sense. And we can do that right without harming our families and follow the overall the example of the church in living within our means and setting aside some savings for a rainy day. So Scott, I noticed that Section 104 is received in April.

Section 105 is received in June, and I'm guessing a lot happens between April and June. So you tell us what happens. Yes, Yes. Uh, I don't know if you can hear if my microphone just caught when you said that there was a thunder clap. Uh, that just happened outside my window right here. There's, there's rain on the window and the thunder. And I think that's perfect to talk about section 105. Uh, so yeah, let me give you the timeline here. On the 5th of May, they've done the majority of their recruiting at home and up in Michigan.

And Zion Camp leaves Kirtland, they're on their way to Missouri to go help the Saints, right, who were displaced, get back to the lands that they rightfully own. And this is America, right? We should, and the governor, governor Dunclin's like, I mean, there is no way anyone can argue that's not your property. You have every right to it. And I will help you.

The militia, the state militia meets you and we'll help your people get in there. So they're going to march from May 5th to June 22nd and It's this is this is gonna be a long march. This is gonna be almost 900 miles. I think it's 880 and They're not very well prepared in terms of food and rations. There's gonna be a lot of hot days a lot of blistered feet a lot of hot days, a lot of blistered feet, a lot of hungry people, a lot of dehydration, a lot of rancid food. And this is going to test the the metal of the people. It's going to test Joseph the prophet.

George A Smith, Joseph's cousin, he was a teenager on this camp and he said that when he mercy Kimball invited Joseph to ride in the wagon, you know, because he's the prophet come ride in the wagon with me Joseph would say no thank you and he would walk along, you know, 20 to 40 miles a day Along with everybody else and he had blistered feet along with everybody else and he was eating the food and drinking the water and Experiencing the the low rations and I think think this, this is going to, this is testing everybody. There's testing their patients, it's testing their resolve, it's testing some of their faith in Joseph Smith, the prophet. William, he met Clellan. Well, one day, when he, when he apostatized, he'll be one of the original 12 apostles who will leave the church. He's going to cite one of the reasons he left the church was because he didn't believe that our Lord was a man of war.

And that when Joseph did this Zion's camp expedition, that was evidence that he was fallen prophet because he was being warlike. You know, and so people are going to have some assumptions. They're going to be violators or watching this unfold. And yet at the very same time, some people are going to have their faith deeply, richly strengthened. And they're going to come out of this polished and ready for the lords work to take on the next level responsibility.

So this is the 18th of June. Let me tell you a story about lightning and thunder. This is awesome. So on the 18th of June, so Zion's camp arrived within a mile of Richmond, which was the county seat of Ray County, which is near Jackson County. And as the army is camping there, the prophet had a premonition of danger. He went into the woods, prayed for safety, and was assured that the Lord would protect them. He then had the camp roused in the early morning hours, and they left without prayers or breakfast. And as they marched

through Richmond, a slave woman said to them, there's a company of men lying in wait here who are calculated to kill you this morning, as you pass through, which would be creepy, right? But as they pass through, as they pass through, nothing happened. Instead of reaching their intended destination of liberty, they camp just inside Clay County that night kind of alert, right? On the lookout. There had been stories circulating in Jackson County and the counties nearby that the Mormons were coming with like 2000 men. They were going to come and wipe them out and they were saying that not even a woman, oh no, that the women, no, that the men were going to be killed and the women were going to be made their slaves and all kinds of stuff that like they're not saying, right?

But they're just using flammatory stories, but people are getting whipped up into a frenzy like, we're not gonna let that happen, are we? They're like, no, you know? And so they're ready to take the Mormons on, right? Well, meanwhile, Joseph's fears are confirmed that something's up when five armed Missourians ride into camp, cursing and swearing,

and they said, the Mormons are gonna see hell before morning. Can I say that on the podcast? Is that what you can say? Yeah, it's a direct quote. That was a quote. They boasted that nearly 400 men had joined forces from Ray and Lafayette and Clay and Jackson counties, and they were then preparing to cross the Missouri River

at Williams Ferry and utterly destroy the Mormons. Sounds of gunfire were heard off in the distance and some of the men wanted to fight. Some of Joseph's, some of the camp of Israel were like, let's do it! This is why we came. Right. But the prophet, he promised that the Lord would protect him. He declared, I love this, he says, stand still and see the salvation of God. A few minutes after the Missourians left a small little black cloud appeared in the clear Western sky. It moved eastward, unrolled like a scroll and filled the heavens with darkness. As the first fairy load of mobs started crossing the Missouri River to the south, a sudden storm made it nearly impossible for the boat to return to pick up another load. The storm was so intense, the record says, that Zion's camp,

they abandoned their tents, they find shelter in an old Baptist meeting house, and Joseph, he exclaims, boys, there is some meaning to this. God is in this storm. It was impossible for anyone to sleep, so they sang hymns. It was just pouring like crazy. They're singing in this old Baptist church. And all outside is, he says, during this time,

the whole canopy of the wide horizon was in one complete blaze with terrifying claps of thunder. And the mobs were scrambling to find refuge, right? And this storm broke branches from trees, destroyed crops, it soaked and made all the mobs ammunition useless. It frightened and scattered their horses, raised the level of the river that they were trying to

forward to come and take out the Mormons. Almost 40 feet in like a half hour. And like a half, it just, and it prevented them from attacking Zion's camp. The prophet recalled in his history, he says, it seemed as if the mandate of vengeance had gone forth from the God of Battles to protect his servants from the destruction of their enemies. My favorite is two days later,

a Colonel Scots from the enemies army rides into Zion's camp to learn about the Mormon's intentions. And he says to Joseph, after that storm, he said, I see that there is an almighty power that protects this people. And the prophet then explains that the only purpose of Zion's camp was just to help our brother and be reinstated in their lands. We don't have any ill intentions. We don't intend to hurt anybody. And the evil reports that

are circulating about us are false and they're trying to get people whipped up to come against us to destroy us. But after hearing that, sconce and his companions were so affected by the stories of the unjust trials and suffering of the saints, they actually then promised to use their influence to offset the feelings against the Mormons, which is so that's that's the day before the 22nd, which is you'll notice in this chapter or the section heading, June 22nd is when this revelation is received. So what happens that causes the revelation to come about? Well, they get some bad news. They get bad news that Governor Daniel Dunglund has reneged on his agreement to support the army to bring out any of his militia to help

escort the scattered Saints back home to their property. And that's devastating news, right? Because now it's just them, 200 of them, 221, and there's sounds like hundreds of others on the opposite, on the opposing side. And so this is a great disappointment that the governor has withdrawn his promise to support the saints. And it was in the midst of that that it was counseled together What should we do and Joseph inquires of the Lord and section 105 is the result So that's the backstory Any any reason why that happens maybe just political maneuvering yeah, the reason that happens according to something I was reading on Joseph Smith papers about this recently said that

that Governor Dunclin saw the writing on the wall. He saw that people in Jackson County and Ray County they were a little fanatical. They were they were they were crazy They they convinced themselves of the stories that they'd heard about about the Saints and they were They convinced themselves of the stories that they'd heard about about the saints and they were they were kind of thirsty for blood and Governor Dunclin felt like if we do this This is going to lead to a blood bath. Yeah, this is going to lead to a civil war right here in Missouri This is not going to be a a peaceable

Experience and so I think he his judgment was This is not the time for anyone to be walking into Jackson County with guns, even the state militia with, as long as the members of the church are there, that's going to be provocative, right? And so I think his thought was, let's, let's forest all violence and all fairness to governor dunkel and it doesn't seem to be a flake he seems to be a a concerned governor yeah but now they're there so now what do they do they've walked 880 miles they they go up north about a camera 10 or 20 miles to a member of the church's farm there near fishing river and and section 105 is is received there. So yeah. So now they so

now Joseph is asking the Lord what do we do now and section 105 is the response. So versus one through 15. It gives the Lord's first reason why Zion is not going to be redeemed right now. And then verses 16 and 17 give the second. So let's look at the verses 1 through 15. The first reason the Lord says that Zion is not going to be redeemed right now is because verse 2, here it is again, behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.

What does that mean? Speaking concerning the church and not individuals, that's fascinating. There's a phrase, I wanna use the phrase corporate blessings, would that make sense? Corpor use the phrase corporate blessings. That makes sense. Corporate blessings require corporate obedience. Meaning if God's going to bless an entire people, it's going to take the unified, cooperative, effort and obedience of the entire people.

A few people can mess it up. Right. I don't know what the exact critical mass is to mess up the corporate blessings, the corporate blessing, but whatever that threshold is, they've crossed it. And the Lord said, I'm not talking about any particular person. And I'm talking about a collectively, so the Lord is saying here that you still haven't learned lesson number one, which is to learn to a part of your substance

as become a saints. And then surprisingly, he says, I'm not just talking about Missouri. This is interesting. Look at this. In verse, let's see, verse seven, I speak not concerning those who are appointed to lead my people, who are the first elders of my church, for they are not all under condemnation, but I'm speaking concerning my church is abroad. Those outside of Missouri as well, and not just those in Kirtland, but those who are kind of scattered out in little branches. He says, there are many who will say, where's their God? Behold, he will deliver them in the time of trouble. And otherwise, we will not go up to Zion and we will keep our monies. People are kind of waiting for God to like deliver them to decide whether or not they're

going to truly consecrate. Right. Once we see that the Zion project is fully underway, then we'll contribute our monies, the Lord saying, that is backwards. That's actually hindering the cause. Therefore, he says, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that my elders should wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion. So this is a corporate like beyond Missouri corporate. We're talking the whole church.

He's asked them time and time again, section 101, most recently to give up their monies, to help purchase lands in Zion. And that in combination with Zion's camp would help bring about the redemption of Zion. But the money didn't come and we only got some volunteers. That's that's the reason number two. He says, in verse 16, he says, I commanded my servant Joseph Smith to say to the strength of my house, even my warriors, my young men, my middle-aged men to gather together for the redemption of my people, to throw down the towers of my enemies and scatter their watchmen. But the strength of my house, I've not harkened unto my words. Well, they got, they only got 221.

That's not enough. That's not enough. Okay, so two reason Zion is not going to be reading right now. The various branches of the church number one, have not learned to consecrate their money as I asked them to do. And Zion can't be redeemed until the body of saints as a whole, as a whole, learn to impart other substance. And then problem number two, there wasn't a sufficient number of young and middle age

men who responded to the call to come to redeem Zion as I asked them to do. He doesn't even mention Governor Dunclin at all, which is interesting. But that was the impetus to go to ask the question, but the Lord doesn't even mention him in any way here. So Scott, I'm hearing no consecration, no unity. There's no consecration and there's no unity. And Zion can't be built without consecration and without unity. I think that's almost the definition, right? Consecrated, united people.

And- Oh, that's right, yeah. Yeah, that's right. And they've got neither. And you can't get Zion blessings without being Zion people. You can't get Zion blessings without living the love Zion. Yeah, that's right, that's right. That's right.

So it's almost as if, listen, the Zion is waiting for you. It's ready. You're, I'm ready when you are. Ready when you're ready to be a Zion people Zion is ready to be built. But for now, we don't have enough people who are in, right?

It's an important discussion because we can always talk about, yeah, we were persecuted and this happened to us and this happened to us, but what is the Lord actually saying? I think that's, I like the way you put that, Scott. Here are the reasons and they were internal. They were us, saying us as if I'm a member of the church with them back then. But we brought some of this upon ourselves. And it's the same thing today. I would, wouldn't you think it's the same thing today,

both of you. Zion is waiting for us as a church. Ready for us to be united and consecrated people. And it'll happen. Now what does that look like in 2021, and what corporate blessings will require corporate obedience and consecration? I mean, the Lord says that, yeah, basically,

he's ready when we are for whatever that will look like. And what we need is the people we're willing to put all the chips in no matter what. Right? I'm in. Right, I'm here with you. I mean, listen to section, just to jump back to section 101, verse 75,

listen to the Lord said back in December, he said, quote, there is even now already in store sufficient, yay, even an abundance to redeem Zion. Nestablish your waste places. No more to be thrown down. Where are the churches who call themselves after my name, willing to harken to my voice? Yikes. Right. So there's enough there, the Lord keeps saying, and he's not given up on Zion, but he's telling them here that, like you said, John, it's internal, and they got some work to do. In fact, that's the solution. The solution actually gives a solution here

and he gives two solutions. So there's two problems and there's two solutions. Solution number one is in verse nine and 10. The Lord says, I'll just summarize these solutions as education and an endowment. Those are the two solution, so verse nine and 10 talk about education. The Lord says that both the elders and my people

need to be taught more perfectly and have experience and no more perfectly concerning their duty and the things which I require at their hands. I love how patient he is here. He is exacting. Can we say that about God? He's exacting.

He does require obedience. But he says, listen, let's take as long as you need. You need more time to learn, to have experience and to learn more perfectly what I'm asking you to do about your duty and the things I'm requiring of you. One of my favorite thoughts from Brad Wilcox, it gave a talk once and he said, he said, you know, how in the sacrament, you know, when I've never heard a priest like mess up the prayer, you know, and of course, everyone can nod their head. He's, if you ever heard a priest mess up over and over again, and it starts to get awkward

and uncomfortable in the congregation, you know, and each time the bishop leans over, kind of shakes his head and says, one more time, Brad said, he said, there isn't some secret switch that a bishop can flip that opens a trap door underneath the priest and sucks illiterate priest down into the dungeon until they can get those prayers right. He said, the Lord does want that prayer said exactly, but you can take as many tries as it takes to get it right. Sometimes you just need to practice. You tell you get it right, right? I love that thought.

I love the image of God that that portrays that he is exacting, but he's also patient and merciful. And so that's what I see in verses nine and 10 is, you gotta do some more learning. Apparently there's more you need to know more perfectly about your duty and the things I'm asking of you. And let's take as much time as you need on that. And then for this to happen, he says in verse 11 and 12,

and he mentions again, verse 18 and 33, he talks about an endowment. He says, this cannot be brought to pass this full educational experience, this reorienting of your hearts and minds. Until mine elders are endowed with power from on high, for behold, I have prepared a great endowment and a blessing to be poured out upon them in as much as they are faithful and continue in humility before me. And then we actually tell them in verse 33, if you flip over, that that endowment is going to happen. He says in the in the Kirtland temple, back in Kirtland, there is a there is an endowment on high

that my elders need to receive as in some he's not super explicit here, but it seems somehow connected to this reorienting, reeducation experience. And perhaps they need the gift from God, this gift of power, to help them be what he needs them to be, to live the laws, he needs them to live, to bring about the Zion project, the kingdom of God, that needs to be brought about in preparation for his coming. So these are all kind of connected together, right? If you go back to 101, wasn't that the parable? What does he need the tower for? Right?

What does he need the temple for? Well, I needed the temple so you could learn to be Zion. And so we're going to have to go do that somewhere else. Yeah. And if you can keep that in mind, a primary purpose of the temple is to make us Zion like or kingdom ready, ready for the king to come, ready to be as consecrated and as pure and heart and mind and all the things that they're lacking here. And as we look inside our own souls, we see that we're often lacking the covenants of

the temple and that's exactly what they're calculated to do. Now, those won't come about Telnavoo, what we're talking about here, but but Kurtlin's going to be the beginning of those of that kind of purification of the heart. That's right. Right. What is it? Doesn't that what Isaiah says? Go to the mountain of the Lord. He will teach us of his ways. We will beat our swords into plows. Am I getting this right? We will our spears into pruning hooks. In my mind, he's saying, let's go to the temple so we can be taught and changed. We can be changed from a sword to a plow, a weapon of war, to a weapon of feeding people. And it seems like that fits

very well here. Don't you think Scott, with the idea of the temple is what's going to change you into a Zion-type people? A Zion-type? Part of that education, that reorientation that they need. We're not doing things the way of the world, right? And it's hard to unlearn, right? You can hear Yoda saying, you must unlearn what you have learned. I don't know, John, can you do a good Yoda impersonation? Or is that in your repertoire? Do Yoda, I cannot. Ha ha ha ha ha.

We'll get, that's a great line. That was good. You must unlearn what you have learned, right? One of my favorite Yoda quotes. In fact, that line is almost an exact line from Levi Hancock, who was on the on Zion's camp. He said that the prophet Joseph taught those in Zion's camp that quote, we had to unlearn what we had learned from the world. That was one of the things that we need

to shed that. How long is it going to take for us to unlearn what we've learned from the world that keeps us from receiving the blessings of Zion? And the Lord saying here, as long as it takes, right, you see the bishop leaning looking over and just just shaking his head and saying, one more time, give it another try. Yeah, you'll get it. You'll get it. Yeah, you'll get it. You'll get it.

However, how many tries it takes just a earlier in the podcast, you said, this is the way. So you quoted the Mandalorian and there you just quoted Yoda. So I mean, so there's something there. I think there's some plagiarism going on. This was written first. Now this is humbling. I mean, thinking of Joseph himself walking, as you said, 30 or 40 miles in a day, not getting on a wagon. I think I might be tempted to murmur blisters on your feet and everything and then getting there, I mean, Zion's campus just a fascinating story. And I appreciate the way you've explained the reasons, the solutions, this is really good Scott.

I'm reminded of, you know, President Benson's cleans the intervessel emphasis, or about the outside things as much, but we gotta start within. Yeah, and I think, John, you just, some of listeners might wanna grab onto that phrase, you just mentioned verse 14, where the Lord promises to fight your battle. He says, I don't, I don't require at their hands to fight the battles of Zion.

For as I've said in former commandment, even so will I fulfill, I will fight your battles. You can think for imagery there, you can think of that storm, right? He protected him big time. So physically that's certainly one of the things he might mean here. But yeah, you work on you, you work on your heart,

you work on becoming that Zion people, according to the laws of the celestial kingdom. He said in verse 5, work on that. And I'll worry about the enemies. For me, I just personally am thinking, how can I be more consecrated? And how can I be more united? First, of course, in my home and my ward and my stake. How can I be more united with those people around me? And how can I be more united with those people around me and how can I be more consecrated? I think if we all ask those questions, we'd be moving forward. Would we scot towards our goal?

Amen. Absolutely. I don't want to be the one ruining the corporate behavior, you know? The corporate blessings. Yeah. Yeah. And, John, you'll appreciate a book of Mormon reference here. Sometimes I think of it as you know

when Lehigh's family are in the boat they're Crossing the ocean and how many did it take how many did it take to bring the storm? You know there were a lot of people that were being very obedient to the Lord the whole time You get a few people who are being rude a few people who were being there. I don't know what kind of dancing they were doing, but Yeah, and then they're getting God Yeah, it was just a small was layman Lemuel and what was it some of the Some of the male sons of Ishmael and sons. Yeah, and who paid everybody everybody everybody paid for their point How many people does it take to rock the boat? Yeah, and who paid everybody? Everybody, everybody paid for their point. How many people does it take to rock the boat?

You know, you can, Can we make a separate boat for us? Let's put the boat in half. Cut it right down the fence. Right, sometimes that's the analogy. Or have you heard Elder Baller talk about the good ship Zion, right, the good ship Zion, that's maybe that's an analogy that's helpful.

But, you know, the Lord says, a few other things, maybe we should grab here that I think might be useful to understand the Lord's plan for that time, and then maybe some things that grew out of this that would be interesting for our listeners. So the Lord says, for those who will remain in the region, those who are misurians who've been displaced, that they should do their best to find grace and favor in the eyes of the locals. This is in verse 23, 24, 25, that's the phrase, I will give unto you favor and grace in that you may rest in peace and safety while you're saying to the people, please help us out, please execute judgment

and justice for us, according to the law, redress us of our wrongs. He says, if you can do that, kind of curry favor with the locals, that will give sufficient time, verse 26, for Joseph to raise an army of Israel until the army of Israel becomes very great, which he says that Joseph and mine elders,

verse 27, will have time to gather up the strength of my house. Now, what about those, we haven't talked about the good guys yet. What about those, like Wilford Woodruffs, what about those people? What about people? What about people seeking all these things?

Come on, sign. George A Smith. They did a great job showing that we're willing to lay down their lives, right? To come along to Zion's camp. What about them? And the Lord talks about them in verse 18 and 19. He says, the end as much as there are those who have harkened to my words, I have prepared a blessing and an endowment for them. Mention the endowment again here.

If they continue faithful, I have heard their prayers and will accept their offerings. I will accept their offerings. And it is expedient in me that they should be brought thus far for a trial of their faith. This was a refining even for the best of them, a refining a trial of their faith. And this is where we get some of those great

stories, right, from some of the leaders that were there. Brigham Young, for instance, someone asked him, Brother Brigham, what have you gained by this journey? And then when Brigham Young was in Salt Lake, he's already there. He's president of the church at this time. He was recalling this and he said, I have traveled with Joseph a thousand miles as he has led the camp of Israel. I have watched him and observed everything he said or did for the town of Kirtland. I would not give the knowledge I got from Joseph from this journey. This was the starting point of my knowing how to lead Israel.

So this is going to be valuable. In fact, Goveritha verse 35, I think the Lord is starting to hint toward the fact that there were certain people on this trip who he is about to choose for added leadership responsibilities. He says in verse 35, there has been a day of calling, but the time has come for a day of choosing and let those be chosen that are worthy. And it shall be manifest unto my servant Joseph by the voice of the spirit, those that are chosen, and they shall be sanctified. He's a little ambiguous here about what he means by chosen for what, right? Chosen for what?

But you both know what happens after this, right? When they get home, actually that next year on Valentine's Day. This is when it's time for the choosing of the 12 apostles and the 70. And the way that Joseph phrased the gathering of that meeting, he said, we'd like to have a meeting with all those who were on Zion's camp. That's how he phrased it, or the camp of Israel, I think, would be his phrase.

And they, along with others, came and he actually had those who were on in the camp of Israel, I want you to come sit over here, and those who were not, you can sit over here. And he just wanted to highlight the sacrifice of those who are willing to do that. And then he said, the time has come for the Lord to call and to choose those who have proven that they've been willing to lay down their lives for him. And then he turned to the three witnesses and said, you know, back in section 18, you were commissioned to choose the quorum of the 12. Now is the time. They withdraw amongst themselves. That's Oliver Cowdery. Yeah, that's Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Martin Harris.

They withdraw, are prayerful. And they've been thinking about this ever since section 18 was given. Oliver Cowdery later says, but this kind of weighed on them, this responsibility. But this was the time they come back and they present the names of the 12. And I think it was at nine, nine of the 12 original 12

apostles were on Zion's camp. And then, and then the next, the selection of the 70, how many of the original presidents of the 70 and Korma the 70 were on Zion's camp? 100 percent, 100 percent of those, yeah, were from Zion's camp. And so the three witnesses set them, the quorum of the twelve apart, and then the first presidency confirmed their calling. And so I think that's what the Lord is alluding to here in verse 35 and 36. So here in section one of, I think that's what verse 35 and 36 are talking about, right, that this, that let those be chosen that are

worthy. There's now a group who have shown that they are willing to lay down their lives for Christ's sake. And that's exactly the kind of people he wants as the leaders of the king. As things get more complex, as this continues to move, as the church grows, we're now going to have a group of tried and true leaders that will hopefully be able to bear this kingdom forward.

So, Zions Camp had that influence, that refining influence. And it's interesting, that's when when you listen to church leaders today, talk about Zions Camp. They seem to always go there. And I like this quote from Elder Downing Shokes. He said, according to its ostensible purpose, from other Downey Shokes, he said, according to its ostensible purpose, Zion's camp was a failure. I love that, it's like, that didn't, they did not get their land back, right? But then he said,

but most of the men who were to lead the church for the next half century, including those who would take the saints across the plains and colonize the inner mountain west, came to know the prophet Joseph and received their formative leadership training in the March of Zion's camp So good, right elder bednar he brings it kind of to our day. He says as As individuals and in our families, we too will be tested

Sifted and prepared as were the members of Zion's. Can't remember, not everyone came out very well, right? There was some that this is going to try their faith and yet there's others like Brigham Young, and who just they come out shining There's something about this crucible, right, that sort of Causes people to go one way or the other here. So other bed now saying that's that's happening also today in different ways He says the scriptures and the declarations of the apostles and prophets do not indicate that faithful members of this church will have trials and tests removed from their lives, right? Quite to the contrary. The Lord needs to know who he can rely on. So anyway, thoughts on that from either of you?

So anyway, thoughts on that from either of you? Oh, I love that. And I think Hank has, Hank talked about this up before, the idea of, well, that wasn't what we expected. I think Hank, you brought up the disciples on the road to Emeas. Well, we had hoped that this had been the savior that would, and I keep seeing parallels with that

because they also thought that Jesus was a political type deliverer and he ended up to have a much more spiritual work and impact that he had on them and so did Zion's camp. It wasn't as much, didn't end up being as much as a physical thing as a process of becoming for all those that went on it. Yeah. It seems to be a pattern with the Lord, doesn't it? That he's got, we have one intention in mind. He's got an expectation. Yeah, he's got a completely different thing in mind. And he kind of lets us go on with our expectation. And then when the moment comes where our expectation isn't met, he says, but mine was, right? Everything happened that I wanted to have happen there along the way. If you think about Brigham and the Exodus from Navu

and the experience he gained from this and he's also gonna be the one who takes him from Missouri back to Illinois, right? When they're Exodus from jail. When Joseph's in jail, these two experiences are gonna create in him, someone who can actually pull off the Exodus of the millennium, right? And so I think the Lord has that in mind as he's working here versus our limited understanding, right, of what we think we're doing. So, wow.

And I think it's great that like an application that we can all make is when our expectations are not met or we didn't get what we thought we would get, but we can say, but what did we learn, what did we become, what did we experience? Those, those verses that you pointed out, Scott. What appears, John, what appears to be a total failure to some is an absolute success to the Lord. And that can be applied in many different ways. When things that you'd hoped kind of fall apart, right? When a marriage that you'd hoped was going to continue forever, kind of falls apart, or when something, you know, a career that you'd hoped was going to happen, doesn't happen. You can see the Lord's hand in

that particular direction for a while. And then he says, I got what I wanted out of that, now let's go this way. Yeah, and you can go, yeah, people can, and we see it, right, that people can go two ways with those types of really intense life experiences. It can either make them better or can make them bitter, right? I mean, it's, and it's, you never know until the crucible hits. And so I think just having that pattern in our lives of trying to be submissive to God, do the best we can, be willing to lay down our lives for his sake,

having just kingdom of God first in our minds. That prepares us when those types of things happen, when our assumptions are violated, because they will, because they will. Think it, one more example, end of the war chapters, where some were hardened because of exceedingly great length of the war chapters were some, some were hardened because of the exceedingly great length of the war, and others were softened.

And it was the same experience, different reactions based on what they chose internally, how they chose to take it. Now I was just gonna say, I just love seeing the Lord's patience in these verses that, you know, and his, he's just so calm with them as they're, how frustrated they must be, at least some of them, and even Joseph, right?

And he says, well, you've got a lot to learn. So I'm here for you. Do you know what Elk Tank? I've just loved experiencing this with everyone because I've sensed, especially in those later 90s sections, how anxious he is to give them the blessings of the temple. It keeps coming back. I want to endow you with power. Would you hurry up and do that thing? Yeah.

Yeah. I have a gift I want to give you, but I can't give it until you're ready. Yeah. Right. And then I love going back to that parable that you mentioned from 101 Scott. What need has my Lord of a tower? Hey, what do you need that for? Why do you need a temple?

Right? You can give us everything without having a temple. We don't need a guy. I probably do that same thing in my own life. Why do I need to go to the temple? Why do I need to make time for that? I pray. I read my scriptures.

Why do I need to make time for that temple? Right? I'm a good person. I'm a good person. Yeah. What is it the Lord said in the parable? I got to make time for that temple? Right? I'm a good person. I'm a good person. Yeah. What is it that the Lord said in the in the parable I got to go back? Why? What is the cause of this great evil?

Just do what I ask you to do. Wow. I have two two thoughts. Um, one, I wanted to highlight something that there's an article about this that you're listeners should know about written by Alex Ba back in 2005. On the church website, just called Joseph Smith and Zion's Camp. Let me just read the last paragraph of what he says in there. It's so good.

John is showing it here for your viewers. Okay. It's so good. Right. Yeah, he just, it's a saint. And I think if you were going to teach a gospel doctrine lesson, you'd want to just read through this and have a highlighter. It's just an angle that I think is worth considering.

He talks about what did Zions Camp do for Joseph Smith? You know, we often think about the up and coming leaders, but what about the, what's Joseph? Is he 20, 28, or 28 years old, okay? So Joseph's turning 28. Turning 28, I think. There you go., 28 or 28 years old? Okay, so Joseph's turning 28 turning 28. I think there you go So Joseph is 28 years old. So what did what about him? So here's what Alex boss says and I just love Alex Bond can't say enough good about his scholarship on all these kinds of topics He's so good. So he said lastly We should not overlook the fact that the prophet Joseph Smith as as the commander, may have gained more from the experience than anyone else.

Five years after Zion's camp, the Lord revealed to the prophet that all the trials and his life shall give the experience and shall be for that good. Surely the Zion's camp experience was for his good. Unquestionably, he learned valuable gospel lessons about faith and virtue and knowledge and temperance and patience, brotherly kindness, godliness, charity, humility and diligence. He also learned lessons regarding relationships with others, the need for preparation. Joseph didn't prepare very well for this, and a lot of people suffered, including himself. And the consequences of one's actions. In short,

Zion's camp was an important chapter in the life of Joseph Smith that further defined and refined him as a prophet leader to the Latter-day Saints. Wow. So that's just a great statement there from Brother Bob. That's a cool angle. Yeah, now second thought. How about this thought from Elder Ballard? Elder Ballard gave a talk. Let's see, 10. Oh, 11 years ago, to young adults,, fire aside, he said this, he said, so I'm going to play with his numbers a little bit because time has passed. But he said by, by the year 2040, just 30 years from now, which would be what, 19 years

from now, just 19 years from now, the number of stakes will have doubled from what they were 11 years ago to approximately 6,000 stakes. Then he said to that group, that audience, you're gonna be in your 40s and 50s, early 50s. And he said, now ask yourself, where are the 6,000 stake presidents? Where are their first counselors and second counselors, executive secretaries and clerks?

Where are the 6,000 times 12 or 72,000 high counselors? And suppose that every stake has an average of 10 units about the average in the stakes today. Where are the 60,000 bishops? First counselors second counselors executive secretaries clerks Elder's corn presidents their counselors high-prest group leaders, their assistants, Relief Society, Young Women, Primary Presidents, and their Counselors. And on and on, where are they? And he said, I'm speaking to them right now. You are they.

You are they. Will you be ready? He asked to accept the callings that the Lord will extend to you. Do not let one day go by when you do not strive to be ready to serve. How are we going to be sifted and tested and tried and prepared? I don't think we're going to be asked to walk a thousand miles or 880, right? One way, right? And then turn around.

I just don't think that's going to happen. Here's Elder Benarr dropped a zinger. It was actually that same year, 2010, at a BYU Idaho education week devotional. He said, he's talking about Zion's can. Whole talks about Zion's can't put it really good. He said, consider brothers and sisters that affluence, prosperity, and ease can be tests in our day equal to or greater in intensity than the persecution and physical hardships endured by the saints who volunteered to march in Zion's camp. So he's saying that affluence, prosperity and ease

can be tests in our day that are equal to Zion's camp. How about that? And so sometimes I like to ask my students just to think about that because this kind of boggles the mind, right? How could prosperity try me? How could prosperity like refine my soul? And sometimes I like to throw out some questions like this. I say, all right, so which test is harder? Being thrown into a prison cell or being given unlimited cell phone service. Okay, a little little plan words there. It's a little

cheesy. I apologize. There's another one. Which test is harder? March with blistered feet 900 miles to Missouri or walk across the street once a month to check on your ministering families for the love, right? I need to, can I do a shout out to the day family who is my ministering family? We're going to count this podcast that they listen to. All right, go ahead. Scott. Yeah. See, it's never been easier.

It's never been easier. It's there. Okay. Here's another. Okay. Which test is harder? Being tired and feathered for being Mormon or remember the church is grace not already saved or keeping your thoughts clean on the internet.

Which test is harder being tied to a tree and whipped for your beliefs, which was totally happening to those saints in Missouri during the expulsion? Or always remembering the saviors you covenant to do while having TV, YouTube, and Facebook in your life. Is it easier to follow the prophet to redeem Zion? Or is it easier to follow the profit to redeem Zion?

Or is it easier to follow the profits council to redeem your own dead ancestors using high speed internet on your laptop in your living room as you prepare to go to one of the, I mean, if you live in the wastage front, many temples that are at our nearby. Maybe you don't live close to the temple. But will you understand the point? Which test is harder? Right, building the Kirtland temple in your poverty or regularly attending one of the temples in your area. Right, and just, I mean, it's never been easier,

but in that ease is the test elder bed nurse. And that's a provocative thought. It's just like the, just like Zion's camp, you find out it's a day of choosing, right? A day of affluence becomes then a day of choosing. Who chooses, right? Who chooses the Lord over their affluence, over their ease? At BYUI, how I took a class from elder bedner,

right before he became an apostle and the class was called Teachings of the Living Profits, my religion course. The next semester, he actually became a living prophet, so that helped to kind of validate a lot of what he taught. And I remember, we were studying Elder Scott. You get to study different apostles, and Elder Bednar would, he would always ask us, he wanted us to ask him questions, that's how we act and not be acted upon in the learning process.

And so sometimes he'd have really cool stuff to share, but he wouldn't share it. Unless we asked, you know, and this was one of those weeks. It was a elder Benar had just been in Salt Lake at a meeting with some of the brethren. He had just seen Elder Scott. And we met on Friday with Elder Benar. And so I remember we're there. And Elder Benar opens up class. He says, all right, we're talking about Elder Scott today.

What questions do you have? And I raised my hand and I said, Elder Bednar, have you seen Elder Scott recently? And he said, I have. Raise my hand again. Elder Bednar, what would you teach us? What did you learn from Elder Scott that you could teach us? And he said, well, that's a great question.

Now I was actually in a meeting with him recently, and as we were leaving, we're in the elevator, and I told him we're gonna be talking about him today, and I asked him if he had any counsel for my students. And he said, yes, I do. And he said, I wrote it down on this three by five card right here in my soup, co-pocket. What would you guys like to hear what Elder Scott

wanted to say to you? I don't know, like, yes. And he said, this is what he said. I think this is pretty close to an exact quote. He said, Elder Scott said to us, the students of Elder Bettner, he said, tell your students that God did not send them to earth to be entertained. They are here for a much more glorious purpose. That was the message from Elder Scott. I think held in reserve, 6,000 years, picked your favorite prophet quote of some of the most noble and great generation.

Here we are. We can spend hours and hours and hours doing nothing. That's part of the test. God needs leaders. God needs people who are consecrated, people who are willing to give their all to Him. And with your free time, you can give a lot to God, you can give a lot to God in your free time. You can help prepare your heart,

you can help, you can consecrate your mind, you can prepare yourself to be something that God can use, someone who can be an instrument in his hands to do some things. yourself to be something that God can use someone who can be an instrument in his hands to do some things. And this is from, let me read from Elder 2007, Elder Dalin H. Oaks, team sports and technology toys like video games in the internet are already winning away the time of our children and youth serving the internet is not better than serving the Lord or strengthening the family. Some young men and women are skipping church youth activities or cutting family time

in order to participate in soccer leagues or to pursue various entertainments. And then this statement, I'll always remember, some young people, and I'd say all people, are amusing themselves to death, spiritual death, amusing themselves to death. Is that our Zion's camp? Okay, you know, that's, Elder Bednar seems to say, that could be our Zion's camp today. Is this gonna make you better? Or is it gonna make you, like just a lump that God can't really do much with?

Right? I don't know. You know, we never wanna be too harsh, right? But it's just, more, more, I check myself on these things. Like, what am I doing? That could be the name of my autobiography, a lump that God couldn't do much with. That could be, that would be a good title for the life of Hank Smith. Is there anything else in these sections, John Scott, before we wrap up?

I feel like we've got some great, great content here. It's been great. where we wrap up. I feel like we've got some great, great content here. It's been great. I think everybody will have an enhanced sense of Zion's camp. Yep. I think so too. And the high council too. And the high council.

Did the high council get elevated at all in your minds? I mean, was this helpful anyway? Yeah, there's a lot of high councilmen jokes. You know, I just want to make sure that we can. We've got to make sure that we've got we've got to make sure we can. We just like you, we like to bring you the love of the high counsel. Yeah, the state presidency.

We want to, I bring you greetings and love from the state presidency. We come in. We've been friends for a long time and I know you have been studying the history of the church and the doctrines of the church. I know you said earlier, I'm kind of a doctrinal guy. I think that was a bit of an understatement when it comes to, if I want to know a doctrine of the church, if I'm a little bit confused,

I know that Scott Woodward knows. Right? He knows. He just knows. He's made it his life study. So in 25 years of studying and teaching, our listeners would love to hear your thoughts on, how you feel about Joseph Smith and the restoration,

the Book of Mormon and the temple, and everything that's come from it. What's it done for you? Yeah, I can't remember what I said last time, so I might repeat some thoughts, because I still feel the same. I still feel the same. I still feel the same. It just keeps growing.

You know, the reality of humanity is that we're complex. We're complex people. None of us are totally good. None of us are totally bad. We're complex. And we, as we've talked about today, we need time to figure some things out. And I think when you give the kind of charity to church leaders and the history of the church,

that we would hope that people would give to us, it's the right thing to do when you study church history. It's the golden rule. And so when I study Joseph Smith, when I study early church history and I see some of the squabbles and the problems and the humanity and we've got a core of the 12 apostles early on who's going to be in their 20s and 30s, they're going to be young guys and they're going to have a lot of trouble sometimes with each other, sometimes with Joseph. And we're going to, it's going to be complex. You're coming up here on a few sections about the Kirtland apostasy. You're going to get up there

soon enough. And we're going to see that, yeah, there's some, there's some challenges in church history. And they're always human problems, you know, and I'm okay with that. I've come to a place in my life where I don't... why would I expect anything else? Right? The divinity of this work is what God can do with weak and simple people. Like I would include Joseph Smith in that he's marvelous, but he's also one of the weak and simple things of the earth that the Lord likes to work with those kind of people. I remember President Nelson saying when he was asked about some of the complexities of church history, it was in, I think it was a news conference, and I remember his statement was, yeah, you're going to find a mix of divinity

and humanity in that. Totally. And then he kind of moved on. Next question, you know. And I love that matter of factness, you know, yeah, and you're going to see it doctrinally. Sometimes you'll have, you'll have some doctrinal errors that profits in the past have made. And they, they get fixed. And things are going to be all right. Brigham Young said, I know many times I've preached wrong and yet that doesn't make him not a profit. I have a little video, maybe I'll include a link in this notes or something, just a little

explainer video about how to become doctrinally confident and knowing that there's sometimes there's apostles who've said things that weren't true and how do you work through the complexities of that doesn't make someone not a profit because they've made errors. We saw that in section 102, right? If the president makes an error, then we can call for a rehearing and that's totally in the cards, right? So I think sometimes we bring to the table some false assumptions about

prophets and about church history. We want it super sanitized, and we want them just to never do wrong. We want them to be amazing, and we want to just cheer them on and just be inspired by their every move, move, and every word, and that's not reality, right? And so is this, my wife calls this maybe a mature testimony where we kind of move past our simplistic assumptions and we can we just see things how they really are. And to me that's the miracle of it is what what God did with some 20-somethings and 30-somethings in the early years of the church. What he's doing today with 20-somethings and 30-somethings

and octogenarians and the whole gamut was doing with the youth of the church. We're just a bunch of simple weak people and yet God keeps telling us, you know, try again and keep going and so. I love the man that I am when I keep the commandments of God, when I try to keep my temple covenants that that I've made

My baptismal covenants when I read scripture I feel profound peace and goodness and light and truth Some scripture studies are better than others But I feel I feel consistently edified by them and as I step back and think think, where did all that come from? Most of the scriptures, right, besides the Bible that we study and my temple covenants. And I mean, it all traces back to the life and ministry of Joseph Smith and what Jesus did through this week's servant.

And I love the Lord for it. And I'm inspired beyond words for the gift of the restoration for the prophets with my eyes wide open to the complexities and the problems and the challenges. But for me, that just I just wouldn't expect anything else. Of course, there's humanity, but, but what about the divinity. So I feel it's a good place. I'm very comfortable in my Latter-day saint skin and and later they say skin and I feel like I can stand up for the prophets also with my eyes wide open to past weaknesses or erroneous statements or whatever and that's totally fine to me. So I just have a testimony of God's work

and I see what it's doing in my life and then I see what is happening to those I love and then corporately, right, this big picture, great things are happening right now. We're moving in the right direction. You know, the Lord's gonna come and we're refining ourselves in preparation for him to do so. Yeah, absolutely wonderful.

Dr. Scott Woodward, John, I'm gonna look at these sections. I just, I've had so much fun today with the very first, with the very first hearing of the high council all the way to the end of science camp. I just feel like. And the second one and the third one. So uplifted and edified and just enriched. So it is, it's a good day.

It's a good day. We want to thank everyone for listening. Of course, we want to thank Dr. Woodward for his time, but we want to thank all of you for listening and we're grateful for you and your support. John and I have said time and again, this, nothing like this would be happening if it weren't for you who take the time to listen.

Thank you to our executive producers, whom we love, Steve and Shannon Sorenson. And we have a great production crew in Jamie Nielsen, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Kyle Nielsen, Will Stoughton and Maria Hilton. And we hope you all will join us for our next episode of Follow Him. Thank you.