Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 109-110 Part 2 : Dr. Brent Rogers

Episode Date: September 26, 2021

Dr. Brent Rogers returns and shares the Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer and many spiritual manifestations witnessed by the Saints. Additionally, Dr. Rogers shares his testimony of the Savior, his thoughts about the Restoration, and the gathering of Israel.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. I've heard it said, and I don't know if it's true, and it's okay if it's not. The temple itself was actually pretty colorful in that it had a tint of blue on the outside maybe, and a dark red roof, like an orange-ish red roof, which I think would be pretty fun to see, you know, a colorful temple. Yeah, I mean, I think that just speaks to the materials that were available and what they could use. I mean, I think in some, you know, renderings and things like that, it's presented as white,

and I think that it definitely had more of a bluish gray hue to the walls. And yeah, the color is kind of a neat thing. And now, you know, we have a lot of temples that are built in, you know, more stones or in colors that are more native to the area. And, you know, I just just the one that comes in mind is the Newport Beach temple that's kind of that beautiful reddish color. And I really, I like that idea of this, you know, people often,

you know, see pictures of the curtain temple today and it's white, but it had the dark, it had the olive green doors, the blue exterior and the red roof. I just think that'd be. The doors are green again, but they've painted those, right? But yeah, Brent, this is just great to kind of frame the anticipation for this event and everything. But we do have to get out before the Sabbath.

So why don't we go in and look at some of the text of the prayer itself. There's a lot we can jump into here and maybe I'll start with a few things that jump out at me and then we can go from there. But I think that it's a beautiful text. There's a lot in it. There's a lot about the gospel that I think is wonderful. Just starting in verse 1, that God is a God who keeps his covenant and shows mercy to his people. And I think the idea of the God of Mercy shows up again at least once,

but that we know who God is and we know that he is firm and that he is going to keep his end of the bargain and he's going to have mercy on us. And I think that's always a comforting thing to know and to remember and to be reminded of. And that there will be a fulfillment of the promises that have been made to us as people. That's in verse 11. And again, that's because we know that the God is a God of his word and keeps his promises.

There's a lot in this that refers to, I think, earlier sections of the doctrine of covenants. There's some repetition, if you will, of the description of the house of the Lord in section 88 that we see. It's almost like he's quoting it verse six, as thou hast said in a revelation, given to us calling us thy friends,

saying, call your solemn assembly. And it seems like he almost goes into a direct quote of section 88, therefore a few verses. Yeah, verse seven, verse eight, yeah. Yeah, this is section 88, 117, 118, 119, 119, all that section right there, This is section 88, 117, 118, 119, 1120. All that section right there, he quotes word for word almost. It's like, okay, we did what you said. Yeah, remember how you told us this exact thing?

We did that. Yeah, and I think that that's, I think that shows order. It shows order of the way that heaven wants things to work, that we're given these commandments, we're giving inspiration, and we're expected to follow that and to be obedient to it, and it's a good thing to show when we have done that. So you say in verse 11, we have a fulfillment of the promises which Thou hast made. I just like that idea of, again, a reminder to the people that God is one who keeps his end of the bargain, and we, what's up to us to keep ours when we make covenants.

In verse 20, there's a setting of expectations about the temple. You know, this is that no unclean thing shall be permitted to come into the house to pollute it. That's still an expectation for us today. And that this prayer of dedication sets forth that expectation with the first temple. And I think that that's really good. I remember when I think it was in section 95 that I kind of made a note, you know, here's the beginnings perhaps of the idea of a temple recommend

where the leaders have to somehow try to honor that idea that no unclean thing could come in. That's an interesting. I don't know where the Lord ever spells it out, do this, but that's, that you think that's kind of the beginning of that idea. We've got to somehow ensure that no unclean thing comes in here. I always love that the last question in the interview is do you consider yourself worthy? Yeah, and I think also it doesn't do us a service to people. Right. It say I was I was unworthy to enter the temple. It's not a service to me to let me in at that point, right? I need to prepare myself.

As we've talked about, you prepare yourself and you build, yeah. Yeah, I want to be a disciplined disciple, right? I mean, those are the same words. And so there's some discipline that goes into, you built, yeah. Yeah, I want to be a disciplined disciple, right? I mean, those are the same words. And so there's some discipline that goes into, you know, coming into, before you can enter, enter into the Lord's house. So, I know if anybody might say, oh, I don't think, you know, that's good for the Lord.

It is good for, it's good for the Lord to require some things of us. He does that often. He raises the bar for us, and if we made it, we're blessed. I mean, in our strivings, and he helps us do that and tells us how to repent, how to be changed. And he's the one who does it. I mean, yeah, it's an invitation.

If I can't pass a temple-recommend interview feeling good about it, I don't know if I understand how to it says in verse 21, reverence the in thy house. To me, that's part of reverencing the in thy house is is this day idea of doing what is required. And look at the word look at the word revere in reverence. I revere thee, you know. Yeah. No, I think that speaks exactly to this, you know, the long history that we talked about with preparing, and it's that spiritual preparation that was important to get to this point for the saints in 1836, and it's what's important for us today to be really ready to go into the temple

so that we can feel of the Savior. And as it says, there are reverence him and his own house, and that's the way that we do that. And I think that coming back to verse 21, where we're at right now, it uses that word, or the phrase, speedily repent. And the word repent or repentance shows up in this section, I think a handful of times. And I think that speaks a lot to just the gospel of repentance and why repenting is so important. And it's, I think, you see it in verse 53, as in as much as they will repent, thou art gracious and merciful, and will turn away thy wrath when thou look us upon the face of thine anointed. It's, it's, say, hey, it's pretty easy if we really think about it, if we really, really want to be in the presence of the Lord and of our heavenly parents, the repentance is key.

I think that part of what we learn in the scriptures about repentance helps that, you know, we must repent. I think Alma says this in Alma 7, we must repent and be born again for the Spirit's saith. If he are not born again, you cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. And so as we talk about why repentance is important and how Christ's atonement and his and his Hin being the anointed one to be our advocate and to be the mediator, it's so that he can bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of humans, right? That we on conditions of repentance can know and live and abide in the presence of heaven and of God. And so that's, you know, I know, talks about it in several sections of the doctrine of governance.

We read about it often in the book of Mormon, but the soul that repenteth, how great and how much joy is there in that soul. And that, I think, is really, you can see that in this prayer of dedication. That is imploring and encouragement from the Lord through Joseph Smith in this prayer, is that the gospel is a gospel of repentance, and repentance is important that you can be made clean and whole. And that's part of our spiritual preparation. I was just gonna say, John, what's the quote from Elder Maxwell that you talk about beckoning? What is it called?

I love to share that. And for those who can see me on video, this is the kind of the international symbol for scolding. Maybe it's international, I don't know. And so I like to do this when I share the quote, but finger point right? Yeah, you're like notty notty It's it's the finger wagging thing that's the gesture I'm making and I'll change when I get to the part in the quote And you'll you'll know what I do so elder Nila Maxwell said when Conscience calls to us from the next ridge. it is not solely to scold, but also to

beckon. I mean, nobody could put things together like Elder Maxwell, but that idea is you're being invited higher. I think President Eiring said something similar, don't be surprised, he said, when you feel the spirit, if it's accompanied by what you feel is a rebuke, it's, there's a little bit of both in there. You can do better than that. Come up higher. I love that idea. I do. Backing, yeah. Yeah. To live a better way. I have a better way. Come.

And Brent, what you said about repentance. Thank you. And it reminded me of the Lord's prayer. If we want to be forgiven, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. And I'm looking at verse 50, have mercy, oh Lord, upon the wicked mob. See, sometimes when I'm reading church history, I'm not there. I'm like send fire upon the wicked mob, right? But look at the prayer. Have mercy upon the wicked mob who have driven thy people that they may cease to spoil, that they may repent of their sins if repentance is to be found. Wow, your heart's got to be in a good place to be able to say that. Hank, what's that

funny story you relate? I can't remember where it is, but in the New Testament where the the 12 are like, hey, should we send down fire on these people? Luke, yeah, in Luke chapter 9, James and John get offended by some merit in village and the the first thing they want to do is blow it up, right? Lord, should we command fire to come from heaven and consume them? And the Lord, no, no, no, that's not why I came. That's what I, yeah right? Lord, we command fire to come from heaven and consume them and the Lord no, no, no That's not why I came that's our yeah the Lord he says I came not to destroy but to save Right, well, and maybe this is John if you have yes, that's hard to do To have mercy on the mob on the wicked mob. Yeah, I was looking at verse 22

The blessings that they ask for are just glorious, right? That the people who come here will leave armed with thy power. Thy name may be upon them. Thy glory round about them and thy angels have charged over them. That's it. That's a beautiful charge over them. That's it. That's a beautiful. And I'm thinking about all the missionaries who have gone forth already, but maybe there's a little bit more when they leave with power from this house. Is that fair? Yeah, and I think that speaks to that long promise and downman of power, that in this moment, praying for that and what unfolds over the hours and days after the dedication is that receiving of the Lord's endowment of power

that is in this case, specific to missionary work and to arming the preachers of the church to go out and to be able to teach the gospel. And I think that's exactly what is being prayed for there. And another reason why we get that sense that the Lord was so anxious that they get this done. It'll bless you, it'll bless your missionary efforts. We were way up in 53 about repentance.

Hey, I have an interesting theological, not as much a point, but a question, but a point. Look at verse 42, and look, I've underlined all the holy fathers that they are using that term to address God and then look at verse 42. Yeah, O Jehovah. Yeah. And I remember Robert J. Matthews was just explaining they were not as, I can't remember the word he used.

They didn't make the distinction as much as we do now. And, you know, they're one. We believe that. We believe they're one in purpose. They're not, but, and so, interestingly, though, they mentioned Jehovah here, but in verse four, holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ.

So, interesting that we're now more formally been reminded, we pray to the Father in the name of the Christ. So, interesting that we're now more formally been reminded we pray to the Father in the name of the Son. Well, the entire, I mean, from, as I'm looking from 24 through, you know, the next 20 or 30 verses, there's this idea of we don't want our, our enemies to be destroyed. Look at verse 43, we delight not in the destruction of our fellow men. Their souls are precious before thee. But they do ask, go back to 29, we ask the Holy Father to confound and astonish and bring shame and confusion to all those who have spread lying reports abroad over the world against thy servants, if they will not repent. So there is a, there's a, we don't want our enemies

to be destroyed, but we don't want them to be successful either. We want this, we want our, you know, the work to roll forth. There's a, there's a beautiful little dichotomy there of, we want people to repent, but we want to succeed in our work. Yeah, and I think verse 30 speaks to that as well, because he says they want an end to the lions and slanderers against the Lord's people, against the members of the church. Because as long as people are creating those reports about them, it is going to make it harder for them to really teach the gospel and to teach the people about the work that they believe they've been sent there to do, right? Brent, as a historian, do you see that today at all? Lyings and slanderings? Yeah, I mean, there's the thing about, I would say the thing about history and about, you know, the way that

the church is kind of written about today. It's hard because you have social media allows for such a variety of different voices and maybe interpretations and viewpoints and there's such a gradation of the way that it's talked about, the way that the church and its teachings and policies and people are discussed. But when it comes to the history, I think that's a harder one because there's things that

we learn as we go more about the history, but there are things that are used by people for, I would say, for ill against the church. There are people who use history to try to promote aspects of the church, and history can be very malleable. And so I don't know if, you know, I don't know. I think it's more in the presentation and interpretation of the history than maybe it is in the falsehoods or lying if you want to call it, you can almost hear his frustration in verse 30. The end of the line and the slander, right? That's got to be frustrating for him to have to combat all of these. It's hard enough just teaching the gospel to people, but teaching it from a, where there are, you're already seems to be from a negative standpoint trying to turn that around is a difficult thing to do. And you can kind of sense that coming out of this. What else that you want to point out here? Well, just along these same lines, I think, you know think it continues in verse 54 about the idea of having mercy and asking for mercy.

And I think that dichotomy that you spoke of of both wanting to see people repent and to, but then to confound or to stop the slanders and the lies of people, but at the same time, I think what, as I read this, it feels like what is really winning the day is that they're just praying for the people. It's a prayer for the world to say, please have mercy on these people. And we're gonna do our best, but we want some blessings for others so that maybe they can feel the light to do their best as well.

54, have mercy, verse 55. Remember the kings, princes, nobles, great ones of the earth, all the way down with poor needy and the afflicted ones of the earth, that everyone's heart can be softened in verse 56. So yeah, that seems, I like how you said that, that's what wins the day. They do express their frustration, he does express his frustration, but then asks for mercy, which I think is a beautiful human thing. I love what Elder Holland said that the That repentance is perhaps the most encouraging word in the whole Christian vocabulary He wants it again in verse once for everybody. Yeah

There it is again in verse 62. We ask thee to have mercy upon the children of Jacob I'm gonna write that have mercy upon the children of Jacob. I'm going to write that down. Mercy wins the day. I like that. I think the only other things that I made note of was in verses 77 and 78. I just, I really liked the way that this is phrase because it's a plea with the Lord for them to hear. Like to hear our petitions and we want to keep a dialogue with you, you know, answer us from heaven, it says. But at the same time, there's a very strong demonstration of humility and where they know the glory ought

to go. It's not about hearing us and answering our petitions for our sake, but for his glory honor, power, majesty here. And then in 78 it says, oh, here, oh, here, oh, here, also Lord, and answer these petitions and accept the dedication of this house unto the work of our hands, which we have built unto thy name. And so that's kind of the culmination. If we're going to look at the prayer of dedication and this event

as sort of the culmination of the previous several years, that's the culmination of the prayer is pleading with the Lord to accept the house and it kind of like, is this good enough? Did we do what it was that was wanted? I think we get an answer to that in the next section. I wonder how many hours they spent writing this dedicated Tory prayer. I've thought about that too. And I haven't been able to find anything that directly speaks to that.

But I would guess that, I mean, again, it probably depends on, you know, if Joseph is feeling inspired and it just kind of comes out and there, and he scribes it, it's more the time to do the type and maybe it went pretty quick to get the words but to get it into a form to present it was probably the time that it took and I bet that took a few hours. And then take the copies of it over to the overflow. Yeah. There's kind of a really cool phrase, I think, in verse 73 here, of the dedicated Torah prayer, that Thy Church may come forth out of the wilderness, wilderness of darkness.

It sounds like a book of Revelation reference. And shine forth and listen to this. Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners. What a phrase. Now, here's one of the few times you will ever see this book footnoted in your scriptures. Go to footnot 73b and you will see song. This is actually from the song of Solomon. It's also repeated look underneath in DNC 5, Dr. Nacovinen's 5 and Dr. Nacovinen's 105. But that phrase, that's just the, that just sounds, that's an awesome phrase. Fairs the moon, clears the sun, and terrible is an army with banners. That's good. That's fantastic. I see in this also the gathering of Israel. If you start, yeah, if you go to verse 62,

he says, we ask the to have mercy upon the children of Jacob. That's Israel right there. His Jacob's name was changed to Israel. That Jerusalem from this hour may begin to be redeemed. That's Israel, right there. His Jacob's name was changed to Israel. That Jerusalem from this hour may begin to be redeemed. That's another way of, begin to be gathered. Right? And the children of Judah, that's verse 64, returned to the lands which they would give to Abraham. There we have the Abrahamic covenant. He talks about them coming back that, look at verse 67, and may all the scattered remnants of Israel, who have been driven to the ends of the earth, come to a knowledge of the truth, believe in the Messiah, be redeemed from oppression

and rejoice before the, that is the gathering of Israel. And so if we, if we were gonna connect 1836 here with 2021, that's where a major connection would be. Is President Nelson's focus is on the gathering of Israel. And here it is in the very first temple dedication that one of the major purposes of the temple is the gathering of Israel.

And it also Brent talked about how we could go way back to the first vision with this. I was also thinking of Buronai's visit to Joseph Smith when he quotes the turning of the hearts of the fathers and the hearts of the fathers to the children. Again, the gathering of Israel. Here's the promise that was made so long ago that when the Lord scattered Israel, and we know that Lehi and his family was part of that scattering, Isaiah was lived part of that scattering that one day God would gather Israel.

And here you almost see, almost the, I don't know, the ribbon cutting here, part of the grand opening of the gathering of Israel with the dedication of the curtain table. And so it's a good way to put it. part of the grand opening of the gathering of Israel with the dedication of the curtain table. It's a good way to put it. Yeah, this is fun reading because there's a lot of eloquent language from many other places in the scriptures and like you said, Mercy wins the day. Anything else in here?

We could spend weeks on this. We'll let people read it. But anything else in here that you wanted to point out for us today? The only other thing that I think is maybe worth mentioning, and it's just, I think briefly in verse 15, where it says, and that they may grow up in the and receive a fullness of the Holy Ghost and be organized, cornea, la laws, and be prepared to obtain every needful thing. And I think that that kind of sets up, you know, it sets up in some ways, our next revelation, but it just sets up the idea of the doctrine of the temple that we can grow up by degrees that we can obtain a fullness and that we can become, you know, become like heavenly parents. And of course, there's

some connection that we could make there to what we learned in section 93 as well. And I guess one other thing that kind of occurs to me just about, maybe not about the text itself, but about the temple, the Kirkland temple, I think it's sometimes been called or referred to as a preparatory temple. We've talked a lot about preparation. And it was, you know And it's a temple that prepares the church

for kind of a next step. And I was thinking about this sort of in the same way that the two levels of priesthood are, we have a preparatory priesthood that prepares us to do a higher and holier work. And I think the Kirtland Temple's purpose was to be that same kind of way, a preparatory temple to prepare the church members for a higher and holier work to be done. And so I think that, as you think about maybe that analogy a little bit of the

preparatory priesthood and as the Kurtman temple as a preparatory temple, it's the time that we prepare. You know, the the eronic priesthood is to prepare us to do, I think, a number of things, but prepare us to repent, and we see a lot about repentance in this prayer of dedication. And it prepares us to come into Christ and to be accepted by Christ. And that is, again, something that the prayer of dedication is asking, that we come into Christ and then ask Christ to accept of our works. And so that was just something that as I thought about that idea of preparation, the preparation to get to the temple, both in 1830, the 1830s and today, and the preparation that we have among the priesthood, it just seems like that's part of God's way to prepare us,

and we take things as we are prepared, and we then grow based on our preparation. Yeah, I see the beginnings of what we would say is our temple experience in some of these verses, right? You talked about them doing anointing, verse 35, the anointing of thy ministers be sealed upon them with power from on high. Verse 78, you have, oh, here, oh, here, oh Lord, right? These are all kind of, you can see the foundation being laid for what we would have in our in what we would you know see as the temple today. We have the what is it the the benefit of being able to have the extended version the

the more nuanced version. I don't know the the more of the final product and we can look back and see the more of the final product and we can look back and see kind of the seeds being planted here. I'm just reminded of how President Nelson has kind of given us that phrase the continuous restoration. And that helps me to see Kurtland as- We can see it here.

Is something different than Navu. We're going to get more later on, you know. We do have a lot more knowledge and a lot more, I mean, I think about the saints in their needing to take on faith, the things that continue to come. And that doesn't change for us. We also need to take on faith, the things that continue to come. We don't know what's going to happen down the road. We just know what we are asked to do in these times. And that's the same for the saints in the 1830s. They

were asked to do things. They tried their best to do them and to be prepared and unified. And in some ways, we're still being asked to be prepared and unified. But there are things that are going to come down at some point that will be marvelous to us and that will help grow our understanding. That's one of the beautiful things, excuse me. I think about studying church history is that you see that unfold for the saints. That they're, we kind of have this perspective of being able to know that, you know, we can go to the temple now, we have all of these. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But they are living it in real time and to watch that happen and to see the truly remarkable faith and the things that happen and the challenges that happen and how they continue to work with and through those is pretty inspiring to me. Yeah, me too. I wouldn't bring a young set of section 76. I couldn't understand it. I wouldn't bring him in set of sections 76. I couldn't I couldn't understand it I couldn't get it so I just let it sit for a while and I let it and then and now I you know And then he was saying decades later now. It's the greatest thing

I've ever write I've I love it, but at first it was not it wasn't easy to grasp I think I Love how the the dedication the the dedicated prayer here finishes. And it finishes like so many other sections of the doctrine and covenants so positively. Right? I've rarely seen a section of the doctrine and covenants finish on a down note, right? Where the Lord says, well, it's not looking good. See you later.

It's always this, you know, it's not looking good. See you later. It's always this joy. Yeah, verse 79, that this church, also this church, to put up on it thy name, please put your name on us and help us by the power of thy spirit that we may mingle our voices with the bright, shining serifs, the angels around thy throne, with acclimations of praise singing Hosanna to God in the Lamb, and let these thine anointed ones be clothed with salvation and thy saints shout aloud for joy. That is a beautiful way to end a dedicatory prayer.

That, it gets me just, even just the reading it gets me excited. I imagine being in the room and hearing it would, would stir you. Well, it's, it's, it's, quite a prayer and I was just thinking and it gets quite an answer. If you look at section 110 as the answer, that prayer deserves an answer and boy, does it get an answer?

Yeah, we can, I mean, as we think about what happens in the course of the next week after the dedication, there's miraculous, marvelous things that happen. And it starts during that day of the dedication. You know, there's accounts of people seeing angels as the events are taking place to dedicate the house. And there are heavenly manifestations. It happens that evening as they are, there's about 300, I think it's men that are gathered together in the temple and they have a continuation of miraculous experiences. Oliver Cowdry wrote that he saw the glory of God

like a great cloud come down and rest upon the house. Benjamin Brown wrote that on that evening during a time of instruction. He said, a pillar of cloud, pillar or cloud, rest down upon the house bright as when the sun shines on cloud like his gold. And then he said, they, they, two, two attendees, and this is what he writes, saw three personages hovering in the room with bright keys in their hands. Now, I can't say, for sure, who those three personages are, or what, but, you know, if we jump ahead to section 110, we have some people, three people that come down and bestow keys, right? It's interesting to me that you have, they're there. They're there and they're waiting for this time. And on that Easter Sunday that happens a week after there is a great answer that's given to

Joseph and Oliver Caudrey is with him in the pulpits there. Then the Lord, the Lord very clearly accepts the house and he accepts the work that they've done. And so this is his plea in the prayer of dedication. We asked the O Lord to accept to this house the workmanship of the hands of thy servants, which Thou did commit command us to build. And then he goes on that the Son of Man might have a place to manifest himself to his people. And on that Easter Sunday, which I think, I can't remember if I think as Steve Harper is written that that's like the second greatest Easter Sunday in history. But we see what happens. And the description of it is, I think it's quite marvelous, but you know, the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit and gives a description of his countenance, shown above the brightness

of the sun. I am the first and the last. I am he who live if I am he who is slain. I am your advocate with the father Behold your sins are forgiven you you are clean before me therefore lift up your your heads and rejoice and Then in verse 7 for behold I have accepted this house and my name shall be here And I will manifest myself under my people in mercy in this house and I that's just I in mercy in this house. And that's just, I just can't think of anything more marvelous than that. And I think there's nowhere else on earth that we can feel closer to the presence of our Savior

than in the temple. And that's a true statement then as it is in my view now. I would just add one other thing about the early description of this, I think, of the Savior's appearance and his approach, I would say, where he says in, let me get back to it here, but we says in verse 5, behold your sins are forgiven you among some of the earliest words that he says to Joseph, Smith, and Oliver Caudrey. And we're going to read the 1832 account of the first vision.

It says of the Lord. And he spake unto me saying, Joseph, my son, thy sins are forgiven thee. Go thy way, walk in my statutes and keep my commandments, behold, I am the Lord of glory. I was crucified for the world that all those who believe on my name may have eternal life. And so the approach of him reminding Joseph, and in this case, Oliver, that his sins are forgiven and that that is his nature is to forgive sins. And that is something that we should, I think, take very seriously as we approach our days and weeks as we repent of the shortcomings that we have as humans, that the Lord is always

there waiting for us to forgive our sins and to embrace us. And it says, they're lift up your head and rejoice. And I think that's a beautiful sentiment for us today that we can think to always lift up our heads and rejoice because the Savior loves us and knows us and is there waiting for us. Yeah. I remember our interview with Dr. Mike Wilcox, where we went through section 64 and he says, everybody's getting forgiveness. Do you remember that John? Everybody's getting forgiveness. You're getting forgiveness. You're getting forgiveness. And he said, he's not a casual forgiver. I remember he said, he's a delightful forgiver. He really likes to forgive people of their of their sins.

And Harry does it again. And I think and I think I talked about this before in another one, Hank, but I forget, but I just my favorite title for the Savior is advocate. And and and I just and the fact that he would use that one in verse four. Just before saying your sins are forgiven you, you know, I'm your advocate. And the fact that he would use that one in verse 4, just before saying your sins are forgiven you, you know, I am your advocate. And when you see the word advocate, you assume three parties already. I am going to advocate for you to a third party. I am your advocate with the father. And I think I told the group before, just Google Jesus Advocate Harry Anderson. There's a beautiful painting by Harry Anderson

that does a lot of the paintings you've seen, where it looks like a depiction of the final judgment, perhaps, and the Savior has his hand on the shoulder of this man. It's just, it really evokes a feeling of, oh, I won't be alone, I have an advocate. I'd love that he uses that title and thank you Brent for pointing out

that your sins are forgiven. And that was, who was it that we interviewed Hank that said what Brent just did about? Yeah, the first thing in the first vision, was that Tony that was said was your sins are forgiven you? Right. Yeah. I think it's been said a number of times that this is this is almost how he introduces himself as he's a forgiveer. This is who I am and I am a forgiveer. An advocate and a forgiveer. I've seen something here that I wanted to point out when John

you talked about this is a great prayer and it gets a great answer. Oftentimes I want a great answer. I want great answers to not good prayer, right? I want a million dollar answer to my five cent prayer and this is a million dollar answer to a million dollar prayer. We also talked about all the work that went in beforehand. So if we want to have these type of experiences with the Lord, we've got to be willing to want to work.

I mean, work hard to do what we've been asked to do, right? And then to pray hard and to pray intently. It seems like a, you know, working hard to do what you've been asked to do, combined with praying with all your heart, mind and mind and soul, then turns into kind of an equation here, right? Hard work plus intense, sincere prayer. I wouldn't even say just hard work, but hard work doing what you've been asked to do plus intense prayer. That leads to these type of answers.

And I think we could all have them. It's just sometimes I want to put in a little bit of work, a little bit of prayer, and I probably get a little bit of answer. Right? I was just thinking about, you know, as you say, it's a million dollar answer for a million dollar prayer. And I think, I mean, that kind of falls into the way that I've thought about

what happens at the the Kirtland Temple and then with these manifestations, first of the Savior, and then we haven't quite got to Moses, Elias, and Elijah, but those are immense rewards for the sacrifice that's been put in. And so, if we were to go on a deeper dive into church history and we'd look at how much the church, Joseph Smith, others took on financial debts to allow for the building of the temple to happen. I think one source said that the building, just the building committee,

and there was just a couple of individuals on the building committee, but we're about $14,000 in debt. Now, that may not sound like a lot to people today, but $14,000 in 1836 is significant amount of money. And that's just those two individuals. Joseph Smith had additional debts, and as did others. And sometimes we think about in the church today

that we're debt having a negative connotation. But I kind of think of it more in this line of investment. If we're investing this hard work, and we're investing with our, to use your phrase, a million dollar prayer, this spiritual return that comes on this temporal investment more than makes up for the cost. That's the way I look at, because some people, And so that's the way I look at, you know, because some people, what happens with finances in Kurtland, I have a colleague named Elizabeth Keane,

who's just an expert on finances in Kurtland, and she's done a lot of great work on this topic, but, you know, and especially looking at the Kurtland Safety Society, and sometimes that gets pointed out as like a major stumbling block and it was kind of a, people saw that as a flaw in Joseph's leadership and things like that. But if you think about the investment that is made to construct the building and then to do the work to prepare, both in a physical sense and in a spiritual sense, and then what is received on this Easter Sunday,

April 1836, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna take that return on the investment. I just think that the manifestations that occurred I just think that the manifestations that occurred opened the way for more of the gospel and more of the work that we know today. More of the continuous restoration. And parts of this or so, I mean, who shows up after who else comes after the advocate,

after Jehovah comes? who else comes after the advocate, after Jehovah comes? Yeah, and that's the Moses Elias and then Elijah in that order. And we learn about Moses appearing and committing the keys to the gathering of Israel. And that, I think John, you talked about that earlier as being referenced in the prayer of dedication, and now we have the keys to do that work.

And then Elias committing the keys of the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, and to prepare members for the kingdom of God, then Elijah appearing in and committing the keys of the ceiling power to do work for for the living and the dead. And those are, I mean, I don't even know if I have the right words. I think it was elder cook that called these eternity shaping events. And yeah, I've had students ask me before if Elias isn't Elias Elijah in the Bible. And that's, there is that case when Elijah is spoken of in the New Testament,

it's usually referring to, it refers to him as Elias. But if you look in the Bible dictionary, under the word Elias, you'll learn all this. It says that Elias can be a title like a John the Baptist was called An Elias because he was a forerunner, right? He went before. And then the last two

paragraphs said, a man named Elias lived in mortality in the days of Abraham, who committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple in April 3rd, 1836. So yes, in the New Testament, when you hear the word Elias, that's usually referring to a lie, Juh. But there is a man named Elias, who lived during the time of Abraham. You know what I love about this too is that I remember Joseph Fielding Maconkey, one of my professors talking about that sometimes we say the New Testament church was restored, but then he would say things like, well, what priesthood do you hold? Melchizedic. Oh, is that Old Testament or new? What about your

boy? What priest? Oh, that's Aaron. Is that Old Testament or new? Look at this. Oh, what about Moses? Oh, Elias. Oh, Elijah. Oh, and then Malachi is mentioned verse 14. This is, and then he would say, this is the old time religion, but I think that's interesting. This is from the beginning. And I love Abrahamic covenant mentioned there in verse 12. Like you said, Hank, I think that Robert Millett has said that the restoration of the gospel was in fact the restoration of the Abrahamic covenant. Yeah. And then you have that same verse, right? This verse that comes up in every one of the standard works where Malachi wrote that Elijah will come

and turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, the children to their fathers. And almost for me, Brent, is this same verse is like two bookends. It starts with Maroni quoting it to Joseph Smith in 1823 and finishes with the, you know, it being quoted again in the Kirtland Temple in 1836. Almost like we started this in 1823, 13 years later, we've reached a point where what I I was thinking of when I started right? That's a long process for the prophet

Well, and then and we don't we don't have a lot of sources that kind of Speak to it, but they you know baptisms for the dead start in The early 1840s and so there's still a significant, I mean, if you want to look at the stretch of time, that's a few years is still pretty significant amount of time before that work gets started. And now there's lots of things that are happening in the intervening time,

but this event happens in 1836. And then we don't, I guess, start seeing the fruits of the labor until the early 1840s. And so to me, that suggests that there's still some things that the Joseph's trying to figure out and how this is all supposed to work. It reminds me of one of our guests said, think of the restoration of the Melchizedek priesthood as a process rather than an event with Peter James and John, that there's much more to that that was one event among many. And this things, I think you could add that idea that this is part of the restoration of the priesthood, right? Section 110, another step along that

line of them understanding this. John, what are you going to say? I just, what you said about what Malachi said, turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, the children of the fathers, and I like to, with my students, put this side-by-side with the footnote there, Joseph Smith history, because Joseph Smith talks about Moroni quoted it differently, Joseph Smith talks about Marona quoted it differently, where he said he'll turn the hearts of the plants in the hearts of the children, the promises made to the fathers, and then you go, oh this is Abrahamic covenant, type of the thing, and not that the whole earth would be smitten with the curse, but that it would be utterly wasted. And one of the things that one of the tenets is that award-hank, is that a scholar

word of script, what do they call it? Textual criticism is that the earliest account must be the most accurate. And but with scripture, we would say this, a prophet can come along and say, let me give you a little bit more. And it's not like, well, which Malachi, which verse is true? It's like verse 15 is exactly true, but what Maroni said in Joseph Smith history, words a little different, but gives us more. And then my understanding is that later on Joseph Smith said, I could have translated turn as bind or seal. And so it's a dynamic thing, and a prophet can come along and say, let me make that verse a little more clear. Which, yeah, and I like that.

Some people would say, oh, the audacity, but no, a prophet can do that. That's what prophets do. Yeah, to say that there's a most correct way to render a verse verse I think is maybe cornering revelation a little to you know trying to paint it into a corner that it can't be it's not statable for yeah it's dynamic and and here's a profit giving us a little bit more insight on that thing so I love that the Malachi statement there. And you said every one of the standard works, right?

Yeah, every one of the standard works has, and I think it's the only one to my knowledge. This brand, this feels almost to me as a New Testament teacher, is like a Mount of Transfiguration Reunion, right? Along with the restoration of, with the priesthood with Peter James and John, you've got pretty much everybody

who's at the Mount of Transfiguration is part of this same process. No, and there's a chart in the religion to 11, the New Testament manual that shows, which is so symmetrical and so elegant the way God does things, is that the same characters, amount of transfiguration were there at the Courland Temple. Matthew 17, it sort of, this section in some ways is a, I don't know, reenactment or a redoing of that event on the amount of transfiguration. So yeah, I think that you're absolutely right that there's the receipt of priesthood keys from heavenly messengers and there's Yeah, that there's just it's Again, I think to me it speaks to that you know the way that

God does things, you know, it shows the pattern If if you know the Savior's pattern is to To start by forgiving your sins as he speaks, if there's preparatory priesthood that leads to higher and holier work, if there's preparatory temples that lead to higher and holier work, if there's things that are done in a pattern that is in the Lord's way and he reveals those patterns to us. So I think that's helpful for us as we navigate our own day and our own situations. Even up to the contention you talked about before the dedication of the temple,

it reminded me of the darkness that comes before the first vision, right, that there's this kind of darkness they have to get through and pray themselves through. And then here comes this glorious vision, and the Lord comes first, I forgive your sins, then angels come, just like Moroni came, right. So yeah, I think there's a beautiful pattern there. It's a good way to look at it.

And I love the idea, I mean, it's to me It's testimony building that the same people showed up. It's not just well I'm a I'm another guy in the 19th century that has a new take on the Bible It's well actually I claim to have been visited by the father and the son what? Well, that's not all John the Baptist. What? Well, that's not all Peter, James and John. What? Well, that's not all. He's hummus. What? And Elijah and well, I actually saw Adam and Seth. Well, and actually I could tell you what Paul looked like and what he sounded like. I mean, that is... Yeah. What did someone say once, John, they have the same celestial

goal? Is that where all kind of all the prophets from Adam to, John, they have the same celestial goal? Is that we're all kind of all the prophets from Adam to to present Nelson or on the same have the same goal in mind, right? And they're all still part of the process. Yeah. Anything else about section 110, what a day? Yeah, I like how you said that. The second greatest Easter ever. If anybody's wondering what the first greatest Easter is, just go read John 20 and 21. Yeah, there you go. You'll know what the greatest Easter one. Like which one's the greatest one?

This, I'm looking in the Come Follow Me manual and I just love this. Well, in verse 10, it says, the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people even so a men and then a vision that vision close another one opens but I love this paragraph on 166 of your manual how why the great excitement on both sides of the veil the promise that the saints would be endowed with power from on high was one reason they had gathered to Ohio in the first place.

And it takes you to section 38, which Brent mentioned. And greater things were promised for the future. This, the Lord declared, is the beginning of the blessing which will be poured out upon the heads of my people. The era we now live in with accelerated temple work and ordinances available to millions of the living in the dead had its beginnings in Kirkland when the veil or the earth was beginning to burst and we should probably mention they saying that song right. That's beautiful. Was that the first time they sang the spirit of God or was it known to them? I think so. I think he wrote it for that occasion. I believe that's right. Yeah, I think that it was written specifically for the dedication of the Kirtland Temple.

Well, and I, time stood still for me a couple of years ago, I was in the Kirtland Visitor Center, and I saw a painting of these Moses Elias Elijah. If you've seen that one right by the doors, oh man I just stood there and looked at that the look on Joseph and Oliver's face as These guys are coming down. It's these guys. Sorry as Hey fellas Forgive me as these prophets are coming. It's and just thought, I thought of the words of that hymn, the visions and blessings of old are returning, and angels are coming to visit the earth. And that's what the painting depicts.

And I said, wow, look at that. What a moment. What an answer to a prayer. What a day to be a latter day saint, right? And to experience to experience that. What is Joseph Smith? I have a quote from Joseph Smith, he says, brother, George Smith arose, this is during the dedication and began to prophesy when a noise was heard like the sound of a rushing mighty wind, which filled the temple and all the

congregation simultaneously rose, being moved upon by an invisible power. Many began to speak in tongues and prophesy, others saw glorious visions and I, Joseph Smith says, beheld the temple, the temple was filled with angels, which fact I declared to the congregation and the people of the neighborhood came running together and were astonished at what was taking place, right? They saw bright light like a pillar of fire resting upon the temple. What a day. I like you said this, I like what you said, Brent, the spiritual return

is worth the call. Return on investment. Yeah, thank you for that. Brent, why we have you here before we let you go, we're gonna ask you a question. Here you are, you are a story and you've dedicated your life to becoming a competent historian, right? You're good at what you do. And yet here you are a firm, faithful believer in the prophet and the restoration. Can you tell us a little bit about how you feel about Joseph Smith and his

contemporaries? I think I mentioned earlier that history can be malleable and it can be written and interpreted in different ways, but there are sources that exist. And they are the bedrock of, and should be the bedrock of any historical writing and interpretation. The words on those records, they don't change. And they continue to speak to us in different ways. And that's been one of the things that I've loved about studying Joseph Smith and church history is getting back to those sources and seeing in those sources for myself

what took place in the past. And sometimes there are things in history. We think we should be entitled to know everything that happened and every reason why things happened in history, whether that's in church history or American history or world history. And then we have a vantage point from our present day that sometimes we think that what happened in the past should fit exactly how we think today and being able to go back to those sources and to think critically about them gives me the opportunity to kind of think through to kind of think through the things that people knew and when they knew it and how they approached different events and different things that happened. And for me, when I look at Joseph Smith's life, I don't, I see somebody who earnestly was seeking to do God's will, what he believed to be God's will for him, and he never deviated from that.

And that's, to me, when I look at the sources, that's what I see in the sources. That's, and I see that in the records and accounts of a lot of other individuals who heard about the Book of Mormon and who heard about Joseph's Miss revelations and they conducted their lives that way and and that That uplifts me that inspires me that that encourages me But you know there are there are things that have happened happened in the past that we don't have a lot of sources about. And so when there aren't a lot of sources that leaves room for speculation,

it leaves room for interpretation, it leaves room. For me, it leaves room for faith, For me, it leaves room for faith and leaves room for choice and how we choose to look at those things and through which lens we choose to look at them. And for me, I try always to look at events of the past and events with Joseph Smith and with church leaders since and with church members sense is that people who were trying their best, but maybe don't always match up with 2021 and beyond thinking about the way the way things should be. But I think that if we look at things with a bit of a lens of faith and make choices to to give Room for people to be human there is there's good reason to appreciate

Things that happen to pass and and if we understand context that's really helpful to But I know that we all, you know, it's kind of a thing of human nature, I think. I mean, it is for me anyway. I want to know. I want to have a reason. I want to, you know, search out the sources and create a pretty concrete narrative. And there's just times when there's not a piece that connects the narrative. And in those cases, like I said, there's options that you can have. You can make up your own narrative. You can interpret, you know, you can guess as to why things happen.

But for me, I turn myself to the scriptures and a favorite scripture of mine is in 2nd Nephi, chapter 9, verses 28 and 29. And you know, Hank, you mentioned that I'm a competent historian, I appreciate that. I hope that that's true. But it says, you know, when they are learned, they think they are wise. And so I guess for me, I would consider myself learned. I don't know if I'm wise, but I'm learned. And I know what the scripture is saying is sometimes when we learn a lot of things, we think we're really smart and we know everything. But the scripture warns about harcaning not under the counsel of God and instead setting it aside, supposing they know of themselves.

And I try not to know of myself. I try to follow this next scripture to be learned as good if they harcane under under the councils of God. And I guess for me as a historian, trained to want to know and to find the sources and to create and construct those narratives and make something that is true to the past. In those cases, when there are sources that don't sit well with me

or there aren't sources that Create the whole picture because we have to know that we're you know, we can't reconstruct every day of Every person's life in a history, you know, even the best written histories take a mere fraction and I'm not gonna put a percentage on it but a mere fraction of of even what the available sources, which are a mere fraction of a person's life. And so when there are those gaps, I turn and I look towards Christ. I guess I'll just, that's where I'm at.

And that's what I would I say and what I do, I know enough to know that I don't know. And the things that are important to me are the things that I find in the scriptures that, you know, whether it's the Bible or the Book of Mormon or the doctrine of covenants, there are things in there that teach me about Christ and about the nature of God. And that's where I choose to focus. I've, there are things that I've learned about Christ, there are experiences that I've had with understanding His love and His atonement. And that's, that's where I direct my energies. And I think that focusing on the Savior and on his love and in following those two great commandments that he outlined for us, along with the scriptures and revelations

that generated from Joseph Smith, they teach me, at least more about Christ, and they make me want to keep my focus on him. So I think I try to harken under the councils of God. And because the scripture, the scriptures that I read and that I love, I mean, many of them emanated from Joseph Smith. I take the fruits of what he's done and what he's brought forth. And I believe that he was doing his best to do God's will. And because of that, I get to learn more about Christ. And because of that, I get to go on a journey that has a pretty awesome, a pretty awesome upside. And I just, I marvel at the work of Joseph. I marvel at the faith of him, but also of many Latter-day Saints. And I'm grateful for the opportunities that I've had in this life to come to know my

Savior better. And I'm able to know my Savior better, I believe, because of the Book of Mormon and because of the revelations that we have in the doctrine of covenants. And Joseph Smith brought those forth for us to continue to do God's work. And that's where I'm at. And that's what I believe. And I say that in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Amen. Amen. Wow. Dr. Rogers, thank you, Brent. Thank you for being with us today. We have been uplifted and taught. Wonderful ways, John. We're just lucky to be here. That's what I think. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how I got this job. Thank you so much. Actually, I do, but I'm grateful. Yeah, Brent, It was wonderful. Thank you both. Thank you both for having me. I appreciate you and all the good work that you're doing. Well, we are, we feel the same about you. We want to thank Dr. Brent Rogers for being with us. We want to thank all of you for listening. We're grateful for your support.

And we know that some of you turn off the podcast and you don't hear about our production team. So if you're reaching to turn the hit the stop button right now, you stop. You stop so you can hear a most exciting voice for this part. This is exciting. You want to you want to know the names of our executive producers because we love them. And we owe a lot to them. Steve and Shannon Soranson, and we have an incredible production crew. We have David Perry, Kyle Nelson, Will Stouten, Lisa Spice, and Jamie Nielsen. And we love our production crew, and we hope that all of you will join us on our next episode of Follow Him. you