Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 111-114 Part 1 : Elizabeth A. Kuehn

Episode Date: October 2, 2021

After the spiritual highs of the Kirtland Temple dedication, the Saints struggle with a financial downturn, the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, and apostasy.  Elizabeth Kuehn  joins the podcast and relates where the Lord finds the Saints find “unexpected” treasure in Massachusetts and how the Saints battle tribulations and divisions that threaten them.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith and I'm John by the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh, we want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. Hello my friends, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with my stunning co-host John by the way. Hi John.

I'm I that reminds me of Star Trek when they set phasers on stun. We have a lot of listeners out there. I was in Alamo, Nevada. The other day and Lonnie Walch stopped me and he said, thank you so much for your podcast. I have never missed an episode. I have not missed a single episode. So Lonnie and all of you who are listening, we want to give you a big thank you and we're, we know you're in for a treat today. So John, we are going to study two years of church history today. So we had to get someone who knew their stuff who's with us. We are so it delighted to have Elizabeth Keen with us today And Keen is spelled K-U-E-H-N. So Elizabeth taught me how to to say that. I am now Keen on how to say that that That's a nice an awesome word

but That's a nice, an awesome word. But we're so delighted to have her here today. And it's so fun every week, Hank, to just know how many folks there are with strong testimonies who know this stuff, you know. And Elizabeth received her Bachelor of Arts degree in history from Arizona State University. And her Master of Arts from Purdue. She entered a doctoral program in history at the University of California Irvine and became a PhD candidate there in 2011.

And since 2013, she's worked as a documentary editor and historian on the Joseph Smith Papers project based at the Church History Library in Salt Lake City. She is a co-editor of several documentary editions of the Joseph Smith Papers, including Documents Volume Five, and she's currently working on a financial series. The last six years of her research has specialized in Latter-day St. Community in Kirtland, and on the financial records of Joseph Smith,

more recently she has worked on controversies in Nauvoo in 1842, including Joseph Smith's bankruptcy proceedings and plural marriage. She has worked to bring greater inclusion of women and representation of their experiences to the Joseph Smith papers project. So Elizabeth, we're so glad to have you and your perspective and your expertise here today. God, glad to be here. Elizabeth, we are in sections 111 through 114 of the doctrine covenants. And like we mentioned before, this is two years worth of time in just these four sections.

So John, we're just going to kind of sit back and let you take over and say, okay, what do we need to know in order to jump in to this time period? So, I think the natural backdrop is the Curlin Temple dedication and kind of everything that happens after that. The section 111 takes place in August, but of course, between the temple dedication in March and August, a lot's happening. And so Joseph really turns his attention to building and expanding the city of Kirlend as a gathering place for the Saints and as a state of Zion. So he expands this view and also takes on a more kind of temporal role in this kind of active city building.

And I think an important thing for listeners to realize is that Kurtland was a growing and thriving community in 1836. This is a really prosperous time for Kurtland and for the United States more broadly. Sometimes we look at the failure of the Kurtland bank and the different crises, the apostasy that happens, and we want to kind of throw that back on 1836 and say, oh, it was just a dark difficult time, and it becomes a very dark and difficult time, but not in 1836. 1836, it's prosperous, the saints are ambitious, and they're kind of excited, right, for these possibilities that Joseph is outlining for a greater city.

So I just kind of want to set the scene that way and make sure that we keep in mind that 36 is a prosperous time. Yeah, wonderful. Like it seems like a sunny days are about to turn into stormy days. Yeah, and that's that's really the context of this kind of shift from 36 to 37. You essentially see an economic bubble burst, kind of akin to 2008 and the economic crisis that we all probably remember. 1836, everyone was so excited about the prosperity

that they were doing kind of unwise financial things, right? They were overextending their credit. They were taking out more loans than they probably should have, and the market isn't able to sustain that. And so in 1837, you have a devastating financial crisis that historians call the panic of 1837. This shuts down banks, it plummets land values, and it really adds to the complications of 1837 for the saints.

And it's kind of the setting that we need to keep in mind when we talk about all the crisis and difficulties that accompany 1837. Okay, now that's smart because I remember 2008 and I remember having good friends who are bishops saying, I've never seen this much welfare, you know, people coming in saying, I'm in really serious trouble ever before. So I'm sure we'll get a chance to talk about that more. Of course, there are financial realities in connection with the temple and the construction costs for the temple had resulted in thousands of dollars of debt. Joseph

and other church leaders were aware of this debt and concerned about it and we kind of see that addressed in DNC111. But again, to kind of set the scene, I want to emphasize that this wasn't crippling debt, as it's kind of sometimes been portrayed. Church leaders were worried, they were working on the problem, but they weren't desperate. There's sometimes a tendency to see the events of 1836

in 1837 as acts of like desperation or recklessness on the part of the profit. And I think it's really important for us to realize that that's not the case. I think I read somewhere $13,000 was owed on the temple. So we don't have exact figures building the temple will cost between like 20 and 30,000. So that's that's like, wow, okay, this was significant, but you're saying they're not panicking, right? Right, they're not reacting out of panic. I think it's a definite concern, right?

But it's not leading them to make bad choices. And sometimes we have the tendency, I think to read, especially the bank and the Salem trip as he's kind of, like, poured choices in light of kind of the desperation of debt. Got it. And you're saying, that's not, don't look at it that way. They're exploring options, maybe. Exactly.

Well, I came across in trying to prepare for this the name of Jonathan Burgess as part of of 11 and can you tell us what was going on there? So we get this story later that there is a member known as Burgess. And he's not identified as Jonathan Burgess in the sources. that he comes to Kirtland with this idea that he has a location in Salem where there might be hidden money that Joseph might be able to access. Now there's some problems with this story and I would urge us to be a little bit more open-minded than the scripture heading might frame it. So we do have a promissary note that Joseph writes to A. Jonathan Burgess

in the course of this Salem trip. So Jonathan Burgess is someone that he's talking to, but there is, we get this story essentially, through Fonbrody from Ebenezer Robinson. And so Ebenezer Robinson, kind of on the surface, looks like someone who would be really credible. He worked in the printing office, was a partner of Don Carlos Smith,

and he writes these reflections later on in the 1880s, where he's clearly using a journal and an account book, so he does have some sources from the time. But I question a little bit, how much he is correctly remembering facts from the 1830s. So in 1889, at 50 years, yeah, so this is 50 years. And also, at this point, he has kind of left Brigham Young in the church. He was with the RLDS church for a little while.

And in the 1880s, he is a member of David Whitmer's Church of Christ. And so, he's very focused on making Whitmer kind of the focus. And so he uses this Salem narrative to show how Joseph is a fallen prophet by going after temporal things and how David Whitmer is kind of his rightful and chosen successor in the restoration. So that's kind of the background to this treasure hunting hidden money aspect of the story. And there might be grains of truth to it. We know that Joseph did look for, you know, was involved with treasure digging

in his earlier years, and I don't want to say that it's not possible. I just wanna kind of show that we should be a little skeptical about taking Ebenezer Robinson at face value with everything that he's saying. Hank, this is why I love having historians on. This is exactly why I love it, because there's so many different things that enter into a story. Is it a recollection? Is it a fact? Is it third person? Yeah, in fact, Elizabeth, can we stop just for a second? I want to ask you about this skill set

because it's something that I try as a teacher to give my students. Being source critical, right? That doesn't mean criticizing every source, just being source critical, right? You can find a lot of history online these days. You can find what people say is true history and you as a historian is going, well, we need to learn how to look at sources. Can you give us some tools that the average member can use when they're looking at history just in general? So I think some things to keep in mind like John was saying, how direct is the source? Is it a first-hand account, how close to the facts is the person giving you the information? And is there a way to document it?

Are there any kind of supporting sources that can say, like, oh, hey, we can see something else from an entirely different perspective? That essentially says the same thing. Another thing to be critical of is if you're getting the exact same story. People don't tell stories in exactly the same way and so if it's verbatim then it's usually a little bit more kind of rehearsed or remembered and not always, you know, an authentic memory as it were. And sometimes you have to take kind of their intentions

into play, like with this Ebenezer Robinson thing. He really doesn't have Joseph's best intentions in telling this story. And so that's one of the kind of red flags for me, as a historian, to say, well, what was his intention and what bias can I identify in these sources? If I go online thinking any source is a good source, what's gonna happen to me? I mean, what's gonna happen to me is I just dig in well they have a source, so obviously is it true, right? I mean, that seems pretty dangerous. I bet you've run into that. Yeah, it's actually really interesting because other historians can be guilty of it. One of my favorite examples is with the Kirtland Bank, a scholar who is completely outside of

Mormonism has not worked in church history, took at face value, wore in parishes, editorial ranting about how Joseph was a tyrant and had ruined everything, and it was just like, gosh, look at this, Joseph's myth guy. And because he took it face value, the words of a dissenter who had every intention of painting Joseph in a negative light. Right. And he took that, that's truth. I think anytime you can help us not just with our sections, but also a skill set, please do so today. Well, in history's ever-changing, and one of my kind of favorite examples of that is that those changes can sometimes take, like, add problems as well, right?

So in the instance of this 111 revelation, August 6th revelation, the 1940 Doctorate in Covenants heading for this section is much more streamlined and just says Joseph won on a trip and here's what happened in Salem. And it doesn't set at all the context of this hidden money story. It's later historians largely using Fon Brodie that introduced that story, taking it again at face value. Yeah, you bring up the name Fon Brodie and I think she's the one who wrote the book, No Man Nose My History and Taganistic to Joseph Smith.

But yeah, tell us where Fawn Brody's coming from and all of this. So she's antagonistic, but I think it's also important to remember that she was kept out of the archives. She couldn't get into the actual sources, especially the ones like the Joseph Smith papers are making available. And so she's using outside sources, like this Ebenezer Robinson source,

like a lot of kind of the rumors and secondary sources to create a narrative. And historians today are very skeptical of that narrative because of the sources that she was using. Okay, and that's important. Yeah, I'm looking at the heading and it says, you know, Revelation as we've seen so many other headings, given to the prophet at, is it curland? No, is that naavu? No, is it Jackson? No, it's salamastatusets. How does this happen? Yeah, so this, uh, this is definitely a departure for Joseph, right? So they leave on the trip on 29 July.

But a few days beforehand, he had written letters to William W. Phelps and other church leaders in Clay County about the situation of the Saints there. The Saints had been forced out of Clay County, much like they had been in Jackson County. It was playing out very similarly all over again. And so you can tell that the redemption of Zion is on his mind, and it's a concern.

And yet he goes to the Eastern United States. And that's kind of a puzzle. We don't exactly know what his intentions for the trip are. So it's a group of four that go on the trip. Joseph Sidney Rigden, Oliver Cowdery, and his brother Hiram Smith. One of the possible intentions had been a prophesied second camp of Israel expedition in September. So it might have already been planned to kind of do this, this effort to raise money and men who would go on, on the expedition. And of course that kind of gets shelved when they find out that the saints are forced out of clay county now.

But it's possible that they were following in on the intention to go anyway. And they, they kind of take a wandering trip by boat and train and They're proselytizing along the way. They stop in New York for several days to where the financial district There'd been a fire there the year before they stop in Boston and visit several historic sites And then they come to Salem and it's in Salem that Joseph gets the revelation that we now know is DNC 111. I find that interesting that Joseph Smith is stopping at historic sites because every historic site I go to has to do with Joseph Smith. So if we look at the verses, the first several verses, I think it's powerful to keep in mind the reassurance that the Lord is giving them that church leaders

will be able to dress these two wady concerns, the redemption of Zion and the repayment of their debts. And as I mentioned, the redemption of Zion was kind of in flux. The members had been kicked out of Clay County. They didn't really know how they were going to address that situation. And so I imagine that's very much on Joseph's mind and in this revelation, we see the reassurance, like things will work out, Zion will be redeemed. Okay, yeah, because we had been driven from Jackson County into Clay County hoping to get back in, and now we have to leave Clay County

and go even further north in Missouri, further away from Jackson County. And that's gotta be a little frustrating, saying we're going in the opposite direction we want to go. Exactly. And then in terms of the debt, you know, the temple was this large and beautiful building, but it was expensive to construct. And the Saints had sacrificed a great deal to complete it, but they hadn't been able to provide for all the costs. And so there were significant debts that went into completing the building. And I'm not sure that many listeners would understand why Joseph and other church leaders would go into such debt.

I think sometimes the current church emphasis on self-sufficiency and staying out of debt is so kind of present in our minds that we do a disservice to Joseph in the early saints and kind of read this fear of debt into the past and be critical of Joseph Smith and others who really have no other options. He had few resources and to do with the Lord directed meant that debt was necessary. Yeah, I think this is another important skill. Elizabeth, wouldn't you say is not taking our 2021 knowledge, views, doctrine, everything we know.

Our social mores, everything. Yeah. I'm placing it on 18, in the 1830s. That's not fair. These people aren't here to defend themselves. Right, and it's a very different world. Yeah. Yeah, I just think life's a lot easier when I just assume, hey, they were doing the best they could, and they were very new at all of this. And in this case, here's Joseph being told, build a temple. He's never done it before. Nobody else has. We need an architect. Should we make it out of logs? I don't think so. You know all the stuff we've talked about and

they were kind of Go making this up as they went along, but he wanted to keep the commandments I think that's the part that I just want the Lord told us to do this. And you remember Hank in those sections what like 94 through 97 it was just so obvious the Lord was really anxious to give them the temple blessings, but they hadn't finished it yet. And so they finally have, okay, now they've got a debt, so but the Lord will help us with that too. It sounds like I like these verses five and six, concern not yourselves. In fact, Elizabeth, you said a phrase that, I remember Sherry Duce saying once, if you were to be around President Hinckley a lot,

you would hear this phrase over and over again. You would hear him say things will work out. And to me, that's kind of the takeaway in the homework of DNC 111 is, is the reassurance. I find it very interesting that the revelation doesn't tell them how this is going to be accomplished. It doesn't lay out step by step what they should do. It just gives them the reassurance that it will happen. It's going to work out. And I like me personally, Elizabeth, jumping into verse one, I love the Lord's attitude here is, oh, I'm not displeased with this trip. I was standing your follies, right? That, okay. Maybe your motivation is more like, yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not

mad at you. I'm not displeased. I felt like the Lord is doing a face poem here. Well, okay, no, I'm not displeased. You've got some follies, and then gives them some ideas of some of the positives. To me, that sounds like a parent. I think I've said that almost exactly one before. Like, okay, what'd you do? All right. Okay.

Yeah. Let's work this out. Let's work this out, right? Okay, what'd you do? All right. Yeah. Let's work this out. Let's work this out, right? Very patient, very understanding. Elizabeth, tell us what you think of verse one and just walk us through this. I think verse one plays into us not knowing the motivations for this trip.

And it's just kind of a historical silence. Later on, verses indicate that they're looking for something in Salem. But we just honestly don't know what it is. And there could be some truth to this Ebenezer Robinson kind of search for money. I also think that we should kind of be broadly minded here. Joseph's doing a lot. He's just acquired the Egyptian mummies, he's learning Hebrew, he's very interested in ancient things and artifacts and manuscripts.

And I just think that the way that Ebony's or Robinson framed it is in terms of money and treasure, which I think he pulls from the second verse and is using it to kind of shape an interpretation that could be negative when I think what the Lord is saying in the second verse is coming to the city. I will make this a really good thing for you. There's so much that the city can provide Zion that kind of like you use that parent analogy, like not only will I run with this, but we will make this, you know,

a really good thing for you and for Zion. That's great. And it's even with some follies involved, I can make it a good thing. Right, shortcomings. And I think that that's an important thing to remember. Joseph never held himself up as perfect. You know, he tells the saints many times,

I'm not perfect, don't expect perfection of me or I'll expect it of you. He was aware of his shortcomings and I think he largely owned up to them. Yeah, and I mean, in fact, he puts them in the doctrine of covenant. How many sections have we seen the Lord saying, I know he has sins, I know he has problems.

Let me deal with them, right? And if Joseph doesn't, if he wants to be seen as perfect, don't let these get published, right? Keep these ones out of there. I love how authentic that is. I think I would be suspect if he put himself out there as perfect in all these sections. And the fact that he has to be forgiven over and over again

makes him a lot more relatable to folks like me, I think, but the Lord can use whoever he's got to do what he needs to do. When the Lord says I have much treasure in this city to help Zion, my guess automatically, and you can correct me here, Elizabeth, is he's not talking about money, He's talking about souls, people. Am I right about that?

Yes, I think you are. It's not born out in the 1836 context, but in 1841, Arastus Snow is essentially handed this revelation as a missionary and told him, like, go fulfill this, go gather saints to Zion. And there's not even a branch in the city at that point. And poor Rastas Snow, his companion, Benjamin Winchester, kind of leaves him. He's trying, he's trying so hard, all of his reactions are negative. It takes him five months to finally start getting converts. And he writes in his journal that if he didn't have this revelation, he doesn't know if he would have stuck around for all those months without success, thinking that he would eventually be able to form a branch and actually gather 75 people to Nauvoo when he comes back in 1843. Wow, and that is treasure. Yeah, this idea of treasure being people makes sense to me.

I have, I'm using ancient paper scriptures and there's room right after the Romans, 113 reference on footnote 2A, for me to write Exodus 195. And I know that Hank spends a lot of time in Exodus. He loves that book, but this verse specifically refers to people as treasure. It says, now therefore, if you will obey my voice, indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people. And I think I've heard that called Segu Lai. I think I heard Brent Topp that we've had before, talk about, a peculiar treasure that his people were. And so I heard Brent top that we've had before, talk about peculiar treasure that his people were.

And so I love the idea that the people could be the treasure that this is referring to. Right, and I think that's, I don't know, that that seems a more likely interpretation to me than just reading it in kind of a literal sense as money. Especially if it's the Lord talking, it's not mortals talking. It's the Lord talking by his definition of treasure, you know. And it does say, I will gather out in my due time. So you're talking, well, the Lord's due time was five years later, 1841, with the rest of snow going to Salem and baptizing so many.

It's almost as if the Lord knows everything. Just really impressed with it. They called it the Salem Treasure Branch is what they ended up. You should. Your treasure is here. So versus three and four give the four men that have been on this trip, additional instructions about what they're supposed to be doing in Salem. Elizabeth, we have mentioned this.

This is kind of like a all-star team here. Joseph, Sidney, Hiram, and Oliver. Like, this is a group of friends going on a historical trip. Like, these guys have known each other a long time. When you're talking, how long have people been in the church? Three of the four have been in since the beginning, really, right? And then Sidney came along very early. Right.

And we know that one of the reasons that Alfred Cowdrey is going on this trip is for his health. He wants to take the waters on the kind of coast that kind of older belief of kind of relaxing, especially warm water, helping your health. Sydney Ricton, it turns out, is the most prominent preacher over the course of this trip. We don't see Joseph preaching that much, but Sydney is giving directing the services that they do hold. Wow.

That's pretty cool. He was good at it, right? He had the gift of- I was an almost preacher. So the revelation further instructs them to essentially meet people, to learn about the area, learn about its history, learn about its ancient inhabitants. I think it's really important to keep in mind that that's exactly what they had been doing and what they continue to do. So they were preaching, they were proselytizing, they were meeting people, and they were touring all these kind of famous

areas, in kind of Salem in the Boston area, going to museums, historic places. Some of these are the famous East India Marine Society Museum, which is actually still there and you can tour, and there's all these locations around Salem that are related to the witchcraft trials, all of our cadre in particular, in letters that are printed in the messenger and advocate, the Curtlyn newspaper, waxive kind of effusive about Gallows Hill

and kind of freedom of religion, religious freedom, and how the Salem witch trials are kind of one of the lessons about that. They also go to Charlestown, where an Ursuline Convent had been destroyed years earlier, because of essentially public suspicion and anti-Catholic sentiment. There were all these kind of rumors about the Catholic Convent there. And so they're seeing this as kind of in the vein of religious liberty and religious freedom.

They also go to the Bunker Hill monument, which was only partially constructed at that point. Oh my goodness, it's partially constructed. My brother-in-law Derek Booth took me there. We ran up to the very top. Him and his, I felt like I conquered Bunker Hill. I didn't know Joseph Smith went there. That's fantastic. To know what I love about hearing this is they had been counseled in earlier sections to learn about countries and kingdoms and the perplexities of the, I mean, they've had been counseled to learn

everything they could. I didn't want section 88 and then what's the other one. And here they are doing it there. I love that. That's fantastic. I did not know all this, Elizabeth. This is great. So this is just kind of, I feel like it's kind of a corrective to some of that kind of Ebenezer Robinson viewing this revelation

in kind of a negative light, right? Like they've made a mistake. And the Lord is somehow kind of punishing that. Maybe there weren't the greatest of motivations and maybe there was, you know, some issues of money or finance that were incorporated with this. But I think there's a lot around that, right? There's more going on. Yeah, I really like that. We won't bring my wife on the podcast, but I have made a few, not great financial decisions before in my life. And that was not my entire life, right?

When I made that decision, it wasn't like that's all my focus was, and I think you're trying to put it in its proper perspective. Maybe they were up there for this money that was hidden, but that wasn't them. That's not their entirety. That's all they're talking about and focused on. And I can see how we can slip into that narrative if we're not careful. Right. And then kind of looking at verse five and the debt, kind of the reassurance of of repayment there, I think something we tend to overlook in connection to the kind of the emphasis

that's placed on the church debts in Kirtland, is that the church and its leaders were in debt from 1830 on. There was never a time in Joseph's misleadership of the church when he was not in debt, when the church wasn't in debt. And I think it's important to realize that this isn't out of any misguided speculation or excessive spending. It's just the sheer necessity and circumstances that they're in. They have to provide for the poor and impoverished among the Latter-day Saints. They're overcoming expulsions of the Saints from first Jackson County, then Clay County, then trying to buy land in Caldwell County, building communities from essentially nothing, and that required substantial resources, which led to them purchasing land and goods on

credit and working to repay those loans. And it's essentially how growth was funded in the 19th century. In order to start something, create something, a farm, a business, a building, you went into debt and hoped it'd be prosperous enough that you could repay the debts that you'd taken out. And they really have few significant assets, and I think it's a testament to their faith that they dedicated what they had to the work of the Lord. Wow, very well set, Elizabeth. That kind of that really shifts the narrative on the church's debt for me personally. Yeah, and I feel like I think that you guys are too young to remember the movie, The Windows of Heaven

about Lorenzo Snow going to St. George, you're a St. George guy, Hank. Yeah, I thought, I thought you were gonna say we were too young to remember when Lorenzo Snow was present. You're too young to remember Lorenzo Snow, but we were friends, right? And that, I think I remember kind of a post-cript of the movie is that he goes down there, there's a drought in St. George

and he preaches tithing and since that time, the church had not been in debt, but you know, that's, so that's historically right, that's the long after they're in Utah. It takes a long time for the church to be like, truly financially solvent. So Elizabeth did you cover what you wanted on the debt there or did you have some more? That was the heart of it. I've got just a tiny bit more. Okay,

yeah, please do. Please because I think this is something this skill of not only just with debt of saying, look, this is how debt is today. I can't believe they would do that, that needs to be, we need to fix that. And I think you're the person to do it. So I think this is really, really good. Well, I've been working with Joseph's finances for about eight years now. So I think it's also important to realize

that the debts mentioned in DNC 111 in connection with the temple We're not even Joseph Smith's personal debts The bulk of the church's debt the thousands of dollars spent in building and completing the curland temple Wade primarily on the shoulders of the the temple building committee Which was composed of Hiram Smith Jared Carter and Ronald Kahun So Joseph wasn't even personally You know on the line for these debts,

but he really cared about repaying them. And in a huge testament to me of who he was as both a person and a prophet, he will eventually take these on as his personal debts. And this will send him into bankruptcy. Wow, good point. And I think that I as I was reading this earlier today, I thought he wasn't hoping to find money so that he could have his a lavish lifestyle or something. Whatever lavish means in 1836, you know, have a nicer covered wagon or a nicer coach or stage coach, but his motive was to pay the church's debt. Is that fair? Absolutely. We very rarely see Joseph kind of acting solely on his own benefit, and his debts are so intertwined with the churches that it's really hard to separate the two,

because when he has resources, are going either, you know, essentially to his family and their needs or to the church's needs. And that's true in Navu as well. Yeah, and that's coming from Elizabeth who I don't know who else would know more about his finances than you eight years. I mean, that's coming from a historian that knows his finances. I love that. Yeah, I think if she, I don't want Elizabeth to spend eight years going through my financial time, she might be like, you just kept 7-Eleven in business. That's all you do.

I think it would be misapplication for us to take verse five and say, hey, look, that's okay. I can go into debt because the Lord's going to give me power to pay them. I think that would be a, what, what, a misapplication of scripture where you're saying, look, the Lord, the Lord is okay with that because we have

how many, how many statements today from, from general authorities about debt. Go to section 19, pay the debt you've contracted with the printer, release yourself in bondage, right? So this is concern not yours to me, it's like, don't worry about it. The opposite of worry is faith. I'm going to help you with that. That's what I'm seeing there. I'm on your side here, and I'm going to be here and help you with that. And the debts they've incurred Elizabeth is telling us, they're not foolish debts because they wanted a new boat or they wanted the latest car.

I think the Lord might say, if that was the case, he might be like, yeah, you need to conserve yourself with that debt because you have not been smart. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about reassurance. You know, they had gone into debt for good reasons, right? To build the temple as the Lord had directed. And this was the consequences of that. And the Lord saying, we'll work it out, we'll figure it out. And maybe this is overstating it, but there were people living in lean-tos who were building the temple. Absolutely. No, that's definitely true. You've got of partially constructed homes, people living in essentially wagons that

are doing everything they can, but they have such little means that they can't give money they don't have. And verse 6 you already told us, this is the idea that they're worried about what's happening in Missouri, right? Right. So, the saints had essentially agreed to leave Clay County. There were again threats of mob violence as their Missouri neighbors didn't want them there and tensions were high and you know, willing W Phelps, Edward Partridge, they're seeing it play out very similarly

to what had happened in Jackson County. And this time they essentially say, okay, we'll move on and agree to the demands of the Clay County citizens. Yeah, and their lawyer, Alexander Donovan, helps them get a place of their own, right? Right, and this is the founding of Caldwell County in far west and the Saints moving to far west and trying to establish a settlement there. So when we talk about these later verses,

it kind of, I think helps us understand that they are looking for someplace, right? They are in Salem for a reason. Unfortunately, we just don't have existing sources that tell us what that reason is. And I do find it interesting that he says that essentially by the spirit, they'll know it, which is interesting, especially if we overlay that with this, if we do go with the Abhines or Robinson story, and the place they're looking for

is this kind of deserted house that Jonathan Burgess allegedly tells them about. Apparently the Lord isn't actually just pleased with that, right? Or it's that there's direction to do something else, to look for something else. In a letter that Joseph writes to Emma in this same period, he talks about trying to get access to a place, to a house,

and essentially they aren't able to. And that's kind of one of the question-old departures in the Ebenezer Robinson story, because in his telling, Burgess isn't actually able to show them the location that he alleged he knew, but yet, according to Robinson, they're able to find it, but there's no money there, and they were chasing after false leads and go back to Curlin failed, you know, to infelior. Not only should we, again, be skeptical of the Abnees year Robinson narrative here, but kind of with that broader lens of where they actually searching for a location, like an

actual building, a house that they were supposed to rent for the church in some regard, or that would have something in it. We just don't know. I like this Elizabeth. You're saying the narrative that we've kind of gone with for section 111 needs to be looked at again and said, listen, there could be a lot of other things happening here than the one we've put forward from a source that's pretty dubious for many reasons. Yeah, it's we don't know as motives. It's like, hey, Ramsey, tell us all about Moses.

You know, it's a, it's a, yeah, got to consider what angle he's coming from. And Robinson has other accounts that we do trust as historians that are valid. So I don't want to just kind of like smear him. He is a valuable resource for historians. And I'd say even those, that are very questionable. Like, for example, John C. Bennett, we can still learn a lot

by what even essentially anti-mormon sources are telling us. But you have to kind of read between the lines, and like we were talking about, be skeptical of the source, kind of realize the bias, realize where it's coming from. And there's just a lot of, a distinct lack of contemporary sources for this period. Like, we don't have a Joseph Smith journal. And fortunately, we don't even have Oliver Cowdery keeping record.

We have a few letters that Oliver Cowdery's writing over the trip talking about going to Gallows Hill and going to these sites, but he's not saying, here's our intention. Here's what we're hoping to succeed in doing. We don't get that subtext. We just get kind of events. We all have to infer things.

Yeah. There's a lot of inference. And I just, I think when Ebenezer Robinson is our only source for that, there just needs to be a little bit more skepticism. I heard you say something earlier. You said, historical silence. And I think you as a historian are probably comfortable with historical silence.

It happens. I think those of us who aren't are saying, well, nature abhors of acumen, right? If I don't know, then fill it in for me. Fill it in for me. Yeah, with some sort of knowledge. But as a historian, do you get comfortable with historical silence that you're just not going to know some things? I think you do have to get to that point. I will say in kind of the years when I was actively working on researching DNC 111 for the Joseph Smith papers, I found this island very difficult and very frustrating because you're essentially saying, I don't trust Robinson anymore, but I don't have anything to replace it with, which is a very unsatisfying model, right? When you're like, I doubt the only source we do have, and I don't know what to tell you.

So I think this silence is important, but it's still a challenge. So everyone out there needs to keep a journal. This is if there's any lesson, if you're going to take a trip, make sure you tell us why you went on that trip. Hank, I think you probably are like this too, but I find myself so many times in my teaching, if there's a question, well, I'll say one school of thought is this and another school of thought is this. They don't give us that much information, right? I mentioned the letter that Joseph writes from Salem to Emma. We have that.

We have a single promissary note to Jonathan Burgess that we don't know what it's for. We know it was paid. That's about it. And you know, we have these letters that Oliver Cowdery's writing. So yeah, there's just scant sources. The very last verse of this, I don't wanna overstate this,

but this was one of the most important verses to me in my life was verse 11. Because wise is serpents and yet without sin, not that part of this, I will order all things for your good. I have an unconventional story of how I met my wife. All of us have our own story. It's dangerous to say, if it happened that way for you, it should happen that way for me. I came to trust that verse and to share it with a lot of young adults as well, that the Lord is

saying, I will order things. Your attempts have failed. And I and I will judge when you are able to receive them. That gave me a tremendous amount of comfort that that I could trust God and that he would order things because I wasn't good at it. And that he would judge when I was able to receive them in his judgment when I was able and the day that and Hank you know Kim, I just felt like the day that we got married that I just kept feeling like the Lord was saying I told you I told you and it was verifying for me verse 11. I will take part of it. So that's been a very important verse for me and I hope it gives people comfort especially when we talk about you've heard this phrase a lot, part of trusting God is trusting his timing. And that is one of those

verses right there. Yeah, that's awesome, John. And for those of you don't know, John was actually doing really well as a single person. Every girl he dated went on a mission. And so he was really helping the church. No, that's what I, that's what I tell people. I, I, something about look on my face made girls want to go on a mission And I could give you their names and their missions, but I'm not that bitter, but I'm close No, but anyway, I think you did a lot of great work then, but no, John, you're right. That is a that's a wonderful beautiful helpful verse again as we said as Elizabeth pointed out in verses five and six I've got

this the Lord saying I've got this and don't be overly worried concern not yourselves because I so I love 111 111 I tell my young single adult students all the time 111 111 go read that one 11 11111, right? Easy to remember. Well, I also love the clause that's at the end there, that it shall be as fast as you're able to receive it, right? Like the Lord's not holding back. We just have to have faith and trust. Yeah, how open are you to this?

I remember someone told this that Joseph Smith said, Elizabeth, you'll know this quote. He said, I wanna to give you more. I want to give the saints more. But every time I introduce something new, they fly to pieces, right? So I can't. So as fast as you're able to receive it,

I'll give it to you. And we may have a different idea of what we're able to receive. That's what I like here. Is fast, he's the one who judges if we're able to receive it or not. And that's part of trusting his timing and his judgment of us, you know. So I put in my, I've underlined, you are able in God's judgment. He's the

one who judges when we're able. And he loves us. We can trust him. So it's, to me, it's a, I can't overstate how important that verse has been to me in my life. And a good teacher knows, knows where the next little step needs to be, right? Instead of, I'm going to give you all of this right now and overwhelm you. I'll give you a little bit of the time. And I think I feel like the Lord is a great teacher here. Yeah, and that's an application of that verse, a personal application, but that's what we're supposed to do with the scripture sometimes is How can I apply this to my own life?

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