Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 111-114 Part 2 : Elizabeth A. Kuehn

Episode Date: October 3, 2021

Elizabeth Kuehn continues to expound on the difficulties with the Kirtland Safety Society, the Kirtland Apostasy, and the power of the Lord’s reassurances in a time of contention, conflict, and confusion. The early Saints learn how to organize a worldwide church, manage finances, and battle discouragement and disunity.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. I know you know so much here we could we could take up hours but can give us your best shot on what happens between 111 and 112. All right so it's about a year and it's a busy year for Joseph and the Saints. So they get back to Kirtland in September and they start making plans. It seems to be influenced by kind of the trip and what they saw and a large part of this is kind of business ventures. So almost in part the Lord has kind of trusted them to be like, okay, I told you to solve this question of repaying debt. Now like explore some options. And that seems to be kind

of you what they're doing. Joseph in partnership with Sydney Rigden and possibly Oliver Cowdery, it's a little unclear in the sources, they start a store in Chester, Ohio, which is just a little bit south of Kirkland. Joseph also buys a significant amount of land in the Kirkland area, over 400 acres. And this is kind of unprecedented for him. Others had bought land, had held land. This is really when we see him really investing in land. And some of this land was likely intended to be used for newly-arrived church members

who are gathering to Kirtland. There's a huge population boom across 1835 to 1837 in terms of members that are coming to Kirland gathering to Kirland, but the land also likely served as security for the bank that Joseph Smith and the Saints would start in the fall of 1836. And I could literally talk for hours about the Kirland Safety Society bank, but I don't think anyone would find that enjoyable. So I'll try and just boil down some essentials. I think I would actually love enjoyable. So I'll try and just boil down some essentials.

I think I would actually love it, but I get what you're saying here. Like we've said, Hank, I think I don't know. You could be the world's expert on the Curtlyn Safety Society that we have right here in our podcast. So I want to do this. Yeah.

I mean, it's a complicated institution. I'll say that. And we sometimes do it with a lot of hindsight and see it as a failure. And this kind of goes back to my earlier comments. Remember, 1836 is a prosperous time. It's a time when they feel like they can be ambitious. They can try new things. And that things are prosperous.

And the assumption they like, I think all of us, assume that try new things. And that things are prosperous, and the assumption they like, I think all of us, assume that prosperity will continue. They're not thinking the worst. They're unfortunately thinking of the best, and that's not what happens. Unfortunately, this kind of ends up being a really bad time to start a bank. And that doesn't play out well for Joseph or the Saints. But it's not an active desperation, it's not a bad idea, it's not reckless, even though it isn't successful. Okay, well I think this is good, this is really good because if you're going to be a critic of Joseph Smith today,

the Curtlyn Safe Society is going to come up, it's an easy target. It absolutely is, and there's a lot we don't understand. It does make sense. Other frontier communities, the size of Curtlyn did want or were lobbying for their own banks. Banks allowed illiquid assets like land, which is something I can't write. John had checked for land to say, hey, pay this.io, although they sometimes did that. It's not an easily transferable asset. So it provides, a bank provides the money that the church and its members needed to buy land, to build homes, and especially to aid church members in Missouri. These were all the kind of areas that they needed funds for. Like you said, it's not to have a lavish lifestyle. It's not to go above and beyond.

It's to meet basic needs. The needs of the growing church. Yeah, and even today, I think most people know that if I go put my money in the bank, they don't keep all that money there. They loan that out to other people. This creates some growth that creates the economy. Right. So a small caveat on that, we don't have any evidence that it's a deposit bank. But there is the sense, there is a sense of people buying stock in it, then being able to kind of

take out loans in the money of the safety society that would allow them to generate kind of the economic growth that you're talking about. Okay. Okay. That makes sense. All right. So it's a pretty ambitious endeavor. It's relatively short-lived.

It closes by August of 1837. The reasons it failed are many. They're complex. I would say that no single factor really causes it to fail. It lacks a charter. There's unclear financial backing. There's external religious prejudice that weighs heavily on the society and its success. Many are skeptical of the bank's credibility and the solvency.

The founding documents don't exactly make that clear. And so when you add religious prejudice to that, it just kind of amplifies a not great situation. Externally, the bank also endures intense opposition from the press in Ohio and from anti-mormons in northeastern Ohio. There's runs on the bank by Grand Ascent Nuel and others who are actively trying to oppose the saints, oppose Joseph. Yeah, so I have a bunch of this of these bank notes. I'm going to go cash them in right now. Right, and when they have... And not knowing full well, they can't do it. Right, or that it will drain what resources they have.

Okay. So there's a lot of opposition internally, according to one of the few records we have, the stock ledger, only about 200 individuals invested in the bank, but the Latter-day St. Population in Curland was around 1800. So we're not seeing huge buy-in from the members. to realistically invest. And some really find it to not be credible and aren't willing to put their money in it. And this is, of course, a frustration to Joseph as he's trying to get this up and running. And there's just not a lot of backing from the saints. Ultimately, the bank fails because of the economic upheaval

created by the nationwide financial panic that I referenced earlier called the panic of 1837. And this panic results in banks across the nation failing. Land values fall significantly, and a lot of creditors call in debts, right? They need that money. And so it puts everyone in a very difficult position. The panic of 1837 causes an economic decline that really leads to years of economic depression in the United States. Well, into the 40s, you know, the country is trying to climb out of the effects of this. There's another panic in 1839 that's also pretty devastating. And so this is really a time of financial panic and depression and I think we have to understand

essentially the setting for DNC 112 in light of that. They're very real financial difficulties that the saints are facing. So the Courland Safe Society wasn't a desperation idea, wasn't Joseph Smith trying to steal money, it was a good idea at the time if things hadn't turned so terrible. Right, it does have some funding problems, some structural problems that I think might have hampered it, even if there had been a lot of support. But ultimately, it doesn't have that support, and it doesn't have the stable economy that would lead to something like that. So much of the frontier banks are about trust, about trusting those who are in the leadership of the bank. And that either makes it succeed or makes it fail, in Nauvoo, the trust in Joseph Smith,

the trust in the church, run of run institutions will allow Navu to survive on very little resources. There's not a lot of money in Navu. Curtlyn, it seems like the trust isn't there to the same extent. Wow. This is so important. I mean, this is just crucial to our understandings because it's going to end up, isn't this going to lead to people losing their faith Elizabeth eventually in saying, and Joseph's going to have to leave Kirkland? Absolutely. Yeah, this is very much in connection with the decline of Kirkland. I think we do have to keep in mind that it's the economic downturn that dramatically affects the Latter-day Saints in Kirkland. Often when we kind of discuss this period of Kirkland crisis in

1837, we overlook these financial realities and really kind of omit the fact that their livelihoods, their homes, their ability to feed their families. But that's what's at stake. We kind of focus on the eventual apostasy with no appreciation for kind of the concerns and the gravity of their choices. And it's just a very difficult time for everyone involved. Joseph included. And so we see kind of this given take, Joseph really kind of lads this financial growth and prosperity. And what ends up happening

is financial devastation, you know. And so as a member of the church, like, there are a lot of people that really feel let down by him that he had misled them. And I think we don't always see this coming. Yeah, I think there's the expectation that he should have warned them And that that definitely plays into it the the bank almost in my mind serves as a catalyst for these doubts kind of doubts about About a profit right about expectations of a profit. Do you expect perfection? Do you expect omniscience and I think some of the saints at that time did and So they're really thrown Joseph Young talks about the bank as a stumbling block for the saints

It's kind of this point where they have to decide do they believe Joseph as a prophet of God If he isn't always successful if he isn't always,'t always going to lead them to prosperity, if sacrifice is going to be the result. Yeah, if he can't predict economic downturns, I mean, what? I think John, we've talked about this before, so we don't need to hit it again and again, but expectations can get us in trouble of what we assume should happen. What we thought what we thought Zion's camp was what we thought yeah all that stuff we've talked about before What what we thought the treasure was in Salem Right

Now assumptions can get you in trouble and especially if they're not based in truth if they're just kind of grabbed out of thin air Right, oh a profit should be able to do this and a prophet should never be able to do that. Where'd you get that? I just, I just assume, right? I just assume that's the case. And man, when your expectations aren't met, that's a, that can rock you. And Elizabeth, I would think if you're a critic of Joseph Smith in his day or if you are looking for reasons to doubt,

you just found a nice big one, right? Absolutely. When this bank goes down, you can say, see, I told you so. Right, and that's essentially what Warren Perish does. He was a scribe for Joseph. He was very close to him. At one point in the journal in 1835,

Joseph calls him my beloved scribe. They seem to be, you know, quite close. And then I think motivations and expectations come into play, and you get parish writing in January of 1838, how Joseph is a fallen prophet who deceives by revelation. And really just completely separates from Joseph. And is I think the most virulent apostate that comes out of the Kirtland period. Wow. Is who? William Parrish?

Warren Parrish, yeah. Warren Parrish and me. Warren Parrish. And then, and then add on that, probably, where'd you're getting from Missouri, right? That, that, that, that, there's some cr from Missouri, right? That things are going there. There's some pretty dirty in Missouri. Yeah.

Oh, man. I just think, how old is Joseph Smith? 1836. What are these? 31? Almost 31? Is that right? I mean, he's, that's a lot of weight for a 30-year-old to try to carry.

Oh. Right. He's got a lot of weight for a 30 year old to try to carry. Oh, right. You've got a lot of new shoulders. Do you feel that way when you're reading through these records? Like, oh, wow, this had to. 37 is a hard year. It's a very dark year. And it's one that we don't have a lot of sources for. And a lot of the sources are really frankly depressing.

These are not good times, right? These are times when Joseph's being questioned when people are calling him a fallen prophet and have no faith in him, when the community in Kirtland is so divided and in such turmoil, we have these heart-running letters that marry Filding rights to our sister mercy

that talk about how divided the community is and the emotional toll that this division is taking. that Mary Filding writes to her sister, Mercy, that talk about how divided the community is and the emotional toll that this division is taking. Even in their Sunday worship services, there's one that gets so contentious that they leave without the sacrament and Mary's just distraught. And you have to remember that she is a brand new convert

converted by Parley P. Pratt, who ends up being one of the people who's opposing Joseph. And so, as a convert, as a single woman, she comes to Kirtland, thinking that she's gathering with the saints, gathering to the stake of Zion, and then sees the very man who converted her opposing the prophet. And yet, she has complete faith and stays there and backs Joseph and you know does all of the amazing things that she does, but I can't imagine a more like difficult trying test for a brand new convert than to be put in such a divisive community. Right.

I think John Taylor was in a similar position. He called, he called Parley Pratt and said, I kind of get, you know, get it, get back in line. If I remember right, it's, it's John Taylor who helps Parley Pratt get back into, back on into his faith, right? Taylor takes a lot of credit, but Marsh is really important. Thomas B. Marsh. Thomas B. Marsh. Thomas B. Marsh too. Yeah. So Elder Taylor kind of recounted part of his dialogue

with Parley Pratt, quote, I am surprised to hear you speak, so brother Parley, before you left Canada, you bore a strong testimony to Joseph Smith being a prophet of God and to the truth of the work he has inaugurated. And you said you knew these things by revelation and the gift of the Holy Ghost. inaugurated. And you said, you knew these things by revelation

and the gift of the Holy Ghost. You gave me a strict charge to the effect that though you or an angel from heaven was to declare anything else, I was not to believe it. Now, Brother Parley, it is not man that I am following but the Lord. The principles you taught me led me to him, and now I have the same testimony that you then rejoiced in. If the work was true six months ago, it is true today. If Joseph was then a prophet, he is now a prophet. Wow. Elizabeth, you mentioned Thomas B. Marsh. I would like to know more.

All right, so let me backtrack just a little bit. So the time between sections 111 and 112, we've got a lot going on, right? And part of what 112 highlights is dissent, dissent against Joseph, speaking against Joseph, opposing his leadership, kind of sense of unrest and disunity. And we see this in the records as early as January 1837. The elders are told to stop murmuring. Another thing that adds to this difficulty is that Joseph is actually absent from Kirtland for long periods in 1837.

He takes a trip to Michigan in February. He goes into hiding in April and May. He takes another trip in August. And then he takes another trip in October and November to visit far west. And so he's gone an awful lot. And in that vacuum, we get the dissenters finding more and more of a voice and more frustration with Joseph in his absence. And it's kind of in May when everything comes to a head.

Several apostles had started speaking against Joseph Smith and the president of the quorum, Thomas B. Marsh and David Patton are in Missouri. And they write a letter in early May to Parley P. Pratt, partly rebuking him for apparently planning a mission to England on the side just for himself. And saying this needs to be done as a quorum, you don't just get to go by yourself and do this. And they call a meeting to be held at the end of July. But in this letter, they also talk about having heard rumors in Missouri that Apostles Luke Johnson, John F. Boyton and Lime and Johnson are speaking against Joseph Smith actively. And they urge the 12 to be unified and to restore peace.

And it's part and parcel of this that leads Thomas B. Marsh to say, I've got to get to Curland. And so he does come to Curland. But it's in late May that we get parly P. Pratt writing a scathing letter that's addressed to Joseph, accusing him of lying and speculation and leading the church astray in these kind of temporal matters. What you have to understand is that Perley's livelihood as at stake,

he's risking the loss of his land and the home that he had his family in. And Joseph tells him, like, no, no, these investments will be fine. And then that ends up not being the case and these debts get called in. And he blames Joseph directly for that reversal in fortune. You know, you said I would be okay. Why am I not okay? And we kind of see this very, I think, visceral reaction on the part of Parley P. Pratt that's saying, I'm questioning everything. Everything's very difficult right now, right? And in late May, Warren Parish, Lyman Johnson, Orson Pratt, I'm questioning everything, everything's very difficult right now, right?

And in late May, Warren Parish, Lyman Johnson, Orson Pratt, and Luke Johnson actually preferred charges against Joseph, his father, and Sydney Rigden to the Curtlyn High Council. Now these charges were usually grounds for a trial by the High Council. And the charges against Joseph include lying, misinterpretation, extortion, and speaking disrespectfully of his brethren. So you get this sense of, you know, there's financial matters at stake, there's temple matters at stake, you know, there's definitely miscommunication and feelings of exclusion. People are on edge, people are stressed. People are very much on edge, and it's in kind of early to mid-June that Joseph falls

very ill and isn't able to attend worship services, and in that void, Parley Piprat, Warren Parish, and others stand up essentially take over the meeting and condemn Joseph over the pulpit in the temple. So a very direct kind of, you know, not only a questioning of his authority, but almost kind of trying to usurp it. After this kind of angry rant, Pratt takes off from Missouri, and it's in his travels to Missouri that he meets Thomas B. Marsh, David Patton, and William Smith coming from Missouri. And it's there that Marsh is able to kind of cool down Parley P. Pratt and say, I think you need to come back with us, come back with us. And he does.

He returns to Kirtland. And it's through the course of that, very much through Marsh as a mediator, that Parley P. Pratt kind of softens his heart realizes that you know he's in the wrong. And I think his autobiography talks about going to Joseph in tears and asking for forgiveness. Oh, oh my goodness. This is just this is high drama. Yeah, it is high drama. It's a very dramatic time. Of course, also the same time frame in early June, Joseph tells Hebrews that he's had a revelation that Kimball should undertake a mission to England.

Oh yeah, great idea. But that sounds like the Lord doesn't it? Yeah, the Lord's like, well, the work will continue. So Elizabeth, I was going to say that maybe it's an almost an accusation of you're not trying to build the kingdom of God, you're trying to build your own kingdom. Definitely.

I think that's a fair description. And it's one that I think gets at a lot of the heart of the kind of the doubts and accusations about Joseph's intentions. Where saints are like, are you really out to help the kingdom? Or are you helping yourself here? And there's a lot of latent frustration with this idea of Joseph stepping into a more direct temporal role and telling them what they should be, you know,

using their funds for and how they should be using their land. That's probably wise to have those separated, I would guess. I mean probably, but in Navu it all kind of comes together. I will say, it's really hard to keep those things distinct when you're doing what Joseph is doing. When you're trying to do these things like build a city, you can't just do the spiritual side of that. There has to be financial means, there has, right? Like there has to be financial means, there has to be investment, there has to be direction. Studying these sections has helped us see that.

Things like, okay, let's start the United firm. I mean, it's telling us, yeah, there are business things we have to do as well. Elizabeth, when you were talking about PartyPprat, I am, and those like him, you know, I think once you if you're gonna lose everything there's a lot of fear Right that your family is gonna be homeless and so I think fear can easily turn into anger Is that what we're seeing here? I definitely think so I think a lot of people are afraid others

definitely think so. I think a lot of people are afraid, others feel like they've been slided. That seems to be one of Warren Parish's key issues. He's not part of the 12. He's not even part of the the the quorms of the 70, right? And he's like, but but I was your right hand man, why don't I get acknowledgement? You know, why don't I get status? And in other cases, I think it's very much kind of expectations of a profit. And when you put in these economic realities, it's a really hard place. And I think there's a tendency to view Joseph is right and the dissenters is wrong and to not really credit the extent of what the dissenters are opposing are afraid of Volate Kimball has this really great quote in one of her letters to Hebrew who's by then in England serving a mission where she talks about how the Lord requires his people to be chasened and

where she talks about how the Lord requires is people to be chasened. And that, though she believes a lot of what the Decenters are saying, like you've got to, you've got to be able to endure that chastening, you've got to be able to find a place for that sacrifice that the Lord requires. It can't always be prosperous. It can't always be, you know, the money

that I think parish and others were hoping to make out of these ventures. And that was their objective, not the kingdom. Wow, these are such good and their life lessons for us. You know, there's going to be times in our lives where being a member of the church is going to be hard. It's not always going to be milk and honey. Right, and the Krilyne Saints learn that in very, I think, challenging ways to overlay yet another issue that they're dealing with in June. There's a smallpox outbreak in June and July, and several children die as a result.

And so you could be losing your children at this time. I can, I think we, I like what you're saying here is don't, don't come at these dissenters like enemies. They had very real issues and problems that they're dealing with. And I think the saints in Missouri are gonna say, well, hey, come on down here, right? Things aren't, things aren't great down here. Right.

One of my favorite Mary Fielding quotes, she's writing to Mercy again, and she essentially says, I know you have a lot of trials, but right now, I think I've got more. Really? Oh, that's great. Yeah. The Saint Emiseries, the Saint in Curland, or yeah, competing back and forth. I know it's hard to be here. So is that, so you said Thomas B. Marsh is going from Missouri,

gonna get back to Kirkland. He's got to figure this out. Is that where this revelation then comes? Yeah, so he gets back at the beginning, or he arrives in Kirkland in early July, and they had intended to hold kind of a core meeting of the 12 at the end of July and he comes to find out that Joseph and the first presidency had unbeknownst to him set a part he bursy Kimball and

sent him on a mission to England. So there's some sense that there's some frustration on Marsh's part there. He'd already kind of corrected Parley Piprat and said this should be under my direction. He kind of feels, you know, invested in authority over this. And so in the we see that in these kind of early verses where the Lord is like, I know you might be a little frustrated. You know, there's been some challenges that you've had to navigate. But at the same time, I think we have to remember that Marsh is a key mediator. He really proves central to helping so many of the 12 apostles that had issues with Joseph that had these kind of doubts that had led to dissent, and he's working to resolve those.

He's very much trying to help them kind of communicate better and be, you know, to resolve the issues that he sees. Elizabeth, this seems like another narrative we need to resolve the issues that he sees. Elizabeth, this seems like another narrative we need to correct is that is Thomas B. Marsh, oh, he left because of the milk, right? He and his wife, they left because of the milk. It's true cream or whatever.

And that's pretty much all we say about Thomas B. Marsh. And you're saying, no, he was instrumental here. So I think there is sometimes a tendency to read into his later decisions in Missouri to leave the church and to reflect that back on the Curlem period. But yeah, he is very much acting in his capacity as president to direct the 12, to try and restore peace in the quorum. And there's one letter that Mary Filding writes and we only have half of the letter so it cuts off,

like you only get half of the words, but in the half that we have she talks about how powerful of a speaker marshes and how much he's advocating for Joseph in this time and how she talks with him and he says you know what I'll be able to bring the brethren around, we'll restore that unity, we'll restore peace, things will work out. And he's endowting Joseph at all when so many of the 12 are at this time. So yeah, I think that's an important kind of corrective to be aware of, that yeah, there's difficulties later. And I think there's a lot more context that we could bring to the cream story. That I don't know if we want to get into now, but it's

a time of hardship there. And food is really scarce. And so it's not actually the petty issue that we think it is. Okay. Wow. And I think one of the things that I've loved about doing this podcast tank is with others like Thomas B. Marsh is this lesson of don't take good people at their worst moments and make that who they are. Absolutely. None of us want to be known by our worst moments. And here's just another example of that. I'm really glad you brought this up, Elizabeth, that during the Curtlyn period, Thomas B. Marsh was an advocate for Joseph Smith, a kind of a peacemaker in the 12th. Very much so. In this moment, yeah. I think it's a volate that writes a letter, how she talks about, so in September, things get really bad. And this is when these these three key apostles, Lyman Johnson, Luke Johnson and

Jonathan Boyton are actually removed from the quorum for a time. They're not they're not excommunicated, but they're kind of almost in this kind of probationary period with the threat of excommunication. And it's it's according to the late Marsh kind of brings them like almost forcibly to meet with Joseph and to say like we need to work this out. You have to work this out. And it says a result that they give public confessions and say, sorry, we were in the wrong and ask for forgiveness and are reinstated to the quorum. Wow. And that had to feel good for the membership. Right. I think it's one of those moments of like union again after all the divisiveness. I just love verse one. I have heard thy prayers. I mean, it tells us maybe here's mine too, you know. Right. And I think it's a it's a later verse that directs him to pray for his brethren. That's one that I've always liked, right? Especially in various callings in the church and some are easier than others, some require

a lot more growth on our part. But praying for those that we're serving with, praying for unity, praying for guidance. Yeah, because I like that he does see himself as a leader of these 12 and it's hurting him that some are falling away. So he feels like I'm going to I'm going to go and do what I can to create the unity in the in the group. I love it. And then in verse four, I think we start seeing this theme of you you know you weren't part of he b hebersy Kimbell setting apart and then kind of the subsequent Orson Hyde joining the mission, but this is still a role that is yours, right? You will spread the gospel to Gentiles and Jews. You will lead out in this work. And this kind of piggybacks with both DNC, you know, 114 as well as 118 when the 12 are directed to take a focused mission to England as a quorum.

I love verse 6. I have a, I the Lord have a great work for thee to do. I mean, that sounds like Maronite at Joseph Smith in the new Aaronic priesthood theme. It begins, I'm a beloved son of God and he has a work for me to do. I love how affirming that is that the Lord has something for you to do and he says it here to Thomas B. Marsh. That's got to feel good. I have a great work for thee to do. Absolutely and they follow them. Maybe humbling too. Yeah. Verse 7, thou art chosen, right're you're chosen for this role and then that beautiful verse Which I think if you grew up in the church you know verse 10 Be thou humble and the Lord thy God shall lead thee by the hand and give the answers to thy prayers. I mean that's It's a it's direction and then it's a couple of promises, you know, it's one of those and

our listeners probably know about scriptures.biu.edu or citation index app. But I looked at these sections. What is the most repeated verse in general conference? Well, guess which one came up there, Hank? Yeah. Yeah, verse 10. Very often repeated because it's such great to account counsel with a promise. I like that absolutely and such a beautiful promise And I'm getting a sense in reading this Elizabeth for what kind of guide Thomas B. Marsh is the Lord says I know your heart You've been praying a lot for your brethren. He says it sounds like you kind of like some more than others So try to love all of them in verse 11. I really like that. Right. And then we skip to verse 14 where it's kind of this like get the 12 in line and go to work. And 15, you know, exalt not yourselves. Rebell not against my servant,

Joseph. Yeah, this is important. I am with him. My hands shall be over him, the keys which I have given unto him, and also to you words shall not be taken from him until I come. I was thinking as you were talking Elizabeth about, it's interesting that the idea wasn't that the book of Mormon isn't true. It was that Joseph's a fallen prophet. And when I think about the three witnesses never denying that, well, they just, this idea of it, maybe the prophets, it wasn't their testimonies of the Book of Mormon were gone, which they never were ever. But this idea of kind of prophet fall, that's interesting.

And I think really important for our day. Do we, are we led by living prophets? We're not. I just think that's becoming more important in our day. Yes, we are. And to have the Lord reaffirm this about Joseph, I think, is really helpful. And I keep say the same about our living prophets today. Well, and do we have a solid testimony in them as a prophet of God, not someone who can easily be swayed, easily, you know, change course? And you do see this kind of spectrum of reaction, especially in light of the bank,

where it's like, oh, these temporal matters aren't going well, maybe he just doesn't have it anymore, you know? And so you do, like, it so interesting how we see people reacting. So John Johnson and his daughter Emily withdraw all of their money from the bank in May. And it's essentially a vote of no confidence. We don't believe in you, we don't believe in your bank anymore. We're taking our money out and going. To me, the most profound example that comes out of this banking situation

is Wilford Woodruff, who had paid $5, goes back in late May and says, can I have my $5 back? You know, he's not speaking to you. It's Joseph, he's not condemning the institution, he's not condemning Joseph as a prophet, he's just saying, so we're seeing that didn't work. Let's start over.

And it doesn't affect his testimony at all. It seemingly, Brigham Young kind of is able to make this distinction and say, like, yeah, maybe that was a failure. Maybe temporal stuff is tricky. I still believe in him. I still have a testimony of him as a prophet. It almost becomes accrucible. There are a lot of people. Absolutely.

The whole thing is a test. Yeah. I'm going to test you financially in every other way. I am really glad I was not there. It's just so everybody knows. It's so easy to sit here when the church is in. It's very prosperous and say, well, I don't know what he was thinking. I'm just glad it wasn't me. I'm glad I was not there. It's one thing to sacrifice. It's another to lose your... everything you've worked to build, right? I can create a lot of fear. And so this really is a time of reckoning for Curtlyn's. I mean, thousands do go to Missouri and follow Joseph there, but there's a lot that just kind of take a step back and kind of pull away from the church.

It is really encouraging. When Lyman White goes back later in the 40s, he re-baptizes a lot of former members and kind of brings them back. And so we often write off Curtlyn after 1838, a lot of four members and kind of brings them back. And so we often write off Kirtland after 1838, after Joseph is forced to leave, but there's still both an LDS community there,

as well as this community of those who had kind of been apathetic. Gosh, I'm reading verse 20 going, this is important today. I mean, who's whoever, the receiver with my word, receiver with me, who's reading verse 20 going, this is important today. I mean, who's whoever receiveeth my word, receiveeth me, who's whoever receiveeth me, receiveeth those, the first presidency whom I have sent. I mean, because I'm reading that hearing a new testament sound to it, and then I see the first presidency.

And if you want to receive me, you receive the first presidency. Right, it's very much, I think. I'm the Lord's endorsing him, yeah. Yes, absolutely. I think that could, you could pull that verse out, John, and place it in today. It's just as crucial that we recognize that. Yes, absolutely.

He talks about them being humble, the 12, and the first presence he verse 22, and as much as they humble themselves before me and abide in my spirit and hark to the voice of my spirit. And this is an interesting analogy, I don't know if it's an analogy he makes here, but he says darkness is covering the earth, a gross darkness over the minds of the people. And that seems to be the case in our day two, right? Just this, if you talk about the myths of darkness from Lehigh's dream, just blinding us to the tree. There's just a lot of it on the earth. Well, and keep in mind, the darkness I talked about, right? You've got this specter of smallpox. You've got this economic devastation. Like, that's the

nation, you know, it's in Kirtland, but it's the experience of the nation at large. And so this is a really dark, difficult time. Dark days. Um, you know, that, that, that verse that's probably the most well-known in section 112 about the Thalhambal, although that got you to leave you by the hand, Elder Suarez. This is in the Come Follow Me manual on page 173. It says, Elder Eulissi Suarez described humble people in this way. Quote, the humble are teachable, recognizing how dependent they are on God and desiring to be subject to his will. The humble are meek and have the ability to influence others to be the same. And then one of the suggestions it makes is in the manual for your family, you could sing a song such as Be Thou Humble. So kind of in keeping with the mission to England, we see verse 28 where it says,

go ye into all the world and preach my gospel unto every creature who have not received it. The Great Commission. Right. Baptize everyone you can, spread the gospel to everyone you can. And then verse 30 gives us some kind of direction. You know, you were mentioning earlier this kind of question of like, how much did Joseph have planned? How much did he know?

And I think it's very much in flux, right? Like I talked about earlier. So it's really unclear, you know, how much Joseph understands what these different forums should be doing, what their responsibilities are. He's figuring out just as they are. And roles are adapting, changing, the Lord is giving direction and instruction, right? And we see some of that in verse 30, where he says, for unto you the 12, and those

the first Presidency who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood, given for the last days and for the last time in the which is a dispensation of the fullness of times. And so I think that helps kind of Marsh frame his thinking, right? He is the president of the quorum of the 12th. This is his role, but he is also subject to the first presidency and needs to follow their guidance. Okay, and maybe he doesn't quite understand that like you and I would automatically. Yeah, there's still, there's still sketching out

their organizational chart and he's got keys and who decides what. I mean, I love seeing this unfold. I mean, I remember a few weeks ago and it talks about don't suffer any unclean thing to come into this house. And I put my margin, oh, so they're going to have to figure out, how do we do that?

We had let's call them temple recommends, you know, they've never done it before. And how do we, things we take for granted, they were still figuring it out. Absolutely. And that's where I think we have to appreciate the change over time. That is the marker of staying history, right? That this all didn't come forth fully fledged, right? They're learning their growing. And you're in frustration.

Absolutely. Yeah. I love that idea. And it was figuring it out as they go, because that's what we are doing. At least I don't know about you guys, but I am. I'm taking a day at a time trying to figure this out. Right? John, even our little podcast here, right?

I mean, we just got it started having really no idea what it was gonna look like and just kinda got started and it started to sort itself out. So I know I'm not comparing our podcast to the Church of Jesus Christ a lot of day saints, but I'm just saying we've had an experience where it's like, wow, we didn't know, but we move forward and things fall into place.

And the Lord seems okay with it, that they don't know what they're doing sometime. Right, right. He seems happy to let them figure it out. Yes, because that's how you learn. I mean, we're learning to be moms and dads, and we're learning to be members of our wards. We're learning to be, how do I be a good sister in the relief society, how do I be a good core member, we're all, uh, and I love the learning process of letting us make mistakes. I know Hank and I love to talk about the

whole brother of Jared thing. What will you that I should do for you that you may have light? The Lord's like, go figure it out, mahan, right? Yeah, right. And I think that goes back to DNC 111, right? Where he's like, it'll work out. I'm not going to tell you how. Like, you're not just going to get it. Like, you've got to put an effort too. You got to trust me and keep moving. Exactly. And I just, I feel for Joseph through these sections, Elizabeth, you've just helped me go, oh, poor kid. He's, he's 30 years old and he's got problems in Missouri, problems in Kirtland, then the nation's economy falls apart. Oh, right, I think of, this is kind of silly, but I think of Frodo saying, I wish

the ring had never come to me, right? I wish this had never happened. I know sometimes I like to tell my student, poor kid, all he did was say a prayer. And do you remember Gandalf's response? He said, so do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that's given us. That's beautiful. Like it's mostly after trial. When we think, especially for me, about Liberty Jail, and when he's thinking of the enormity of everything he's dealt with, for me, Kirtlin's a factor there too. Yes, the immediate context in Missouri is difficult, but it's building off of these were very hard years for Joseph. Yeah, and it can get exhausting trial after trial after trial. I remember just this last year,

my brother passed away in December from COVID, my very good friend passed away in January, and then my father passed away in March, and I kept thinking, I could handle each of these and then my father passed away in March, and I kept thinking I could handle each of these one at a time here, but man, if they're just in succession, just boom, boom, boom, here's, oh, I'm getting tired. All right, I imagine Joseph who goes through way more difficult things going, I'm year, year, next year, next year, just, oh, I'm tired.

This is hard, and the Lord has high expectations. He loves them, and the Lord has high expectations. He loves them and he has really high expectations. Was it elder cook that wants you to know we had a hard time? That might be in the history books Elizabeth for 2020-2021. And then things get hard. What happened? I don't even, it'd be like, what does Mormon say?

I don't even wanna trouble you with. Yeah, I'm not gonna give you the list. I think I'm gonna skip this part. One, or can we move to 113? We can just give it a quick look, Elizabeth. Sure. Are you okay? Do you have some more on 112 before we wrap up on 112? So I would just say that descent continues. So July seems like things are easing in September. We have this confrontation.

And then Joseph goes to far west, men is gone from Kirtland for a period of over a month, comes back in early December to find that the dissenters have increased past any previous level of dissent and that the Kirtland High Council has actually acted to excommunicate 28 dissenters. And in fact, John Smith, in a letter to his son George Smith, who is outside of Curlin teaching, says that they've excommunicated 40 to 50 people. And so you get the sense of loss, of just irreconcilable difference. And Warren Parish and these excommunicated dissenters actually

start a rival church. In January of 1838, they call it the Church of Christ. And again, following this theme of a fallen prophet, say, we're going back to the correct restoration, right? Not this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, nonsense that Joseph has kind of directed everyone. We're going back to the church, the Church of Christ, the original name of the church, and are very much almost kind of a competing church.

And so you really get the sense of division in the Curlundi community, where you literally have people taking sides, and it's in this moment that we see Decentre's threatening violence against the saints. And it's also within this context, not only are there these threats of violence, but Joseph receives a revelator, 12 January that says, you need to leave, you need to get to Missouri, and that all those saints who are faithful should come with you. You need to leave Kurtland. Wow. So that's January of 38.

It's time to go. Oh, that is heartbreaking. So, so July, you felt like, hey, we're getting some things reconciled. We're gonna be okay. He goes to Missouri, comes back and it's worse. Oh, man. And you gotta move again.

And I mean, this has been there for, since I remember the episodes John where we talked about, leave New York and go to the Ohio and I'm gonna dally with power. So this has to be heartbreaking to leave this city where so much has happened. Right, they dedicated a temple. You know, like that's huge.

They're leaving their temple behind. I can't imagine. And we're always moving in winter. We're always moving in January. It's like, oh, really again. So with the 12 January revelation, they act on that immediately and leave that night. But their families don't... Elizabeth, so he hasn't been back that long? No. No, it's a matter of... So he comes back the 10th of December and essentially a month later they're leaving. Wow.

Right. We have families like Bathsheba Bigler, who will become Bathsheba Smith. She talks about arriving days before the Hansmöle massacre from Kirtland, from Ohio. We just got here. And this has got to be, Elizabeth, in your research, it's got to be, Elizabeth, in your research,

it's got to be a heartbreaking time. These are good people who are leaving the church and now are very angry. How do you see that playing out? Because I have a few friends who have been upset, decided that they were gonna leave the church and there's a lot of anger there. And it seems kind of similar. So how do you see that playing out? What are you feeling from this? Yeah, so there's definitely a lot of emotion at stake. And do you see that especially in the letters

that we have that are contemporary letters? So we have this small group of letters, the late Kimbles writing to Heber, Mary Still writing to Mercy, Hebsaba, Richards, Brigham's cousin is writing to various family members, and John Smith is writing to George Smith. So we have this kind of group of letters that's giving us some insight, and by and large, the women are heartbroken. They just see this as division and a loss of friends and, you know, a loss of the community that they had You know enjoyed and really had felt such a connection to

Volei says you know tells Hebrew that she feels like the dissenters were justified in some things But that they went essentially too far and that they needed to recognize the chest aisement of the Lord and kind of come back in line. And she gives her testimony of Joseph even saying like I think the dissenters are justified in some of their concerns. Mary just talks about the sense of extreme division of a community that's just run to part, you know, that the same community that had celebrated the dedication of the Kirtland Temple just, you know, a year before is now to the point of being enemies and threatening violence on each other. And so it's just really devastating. And then you see some of the leaders taking, I think, a somewhat problematic approach. John Smith, who was part of the

Curtlyn I Council that ended up excommunicating dissenters, frames it this way for his son. He says, the church has taken a mighty pruning and will be better for it. And it's kind of a heavy-handed approach. Wow. So, you know, we're getting kind of all sides in this. Yeah. Wow. That's very insightful. So good. Elizabeth, is there anything else we need to talk about with the Kurt Lindopos? I think people, I think so many of our listeners are going to say, wow, I didn't know that. And I think you framed it in such a good way. Yeah, just a beautiful way of let's be real here.

But let's also, let's Joseph is still chosen. The Lord is very clear. He is the guy. Yeah, I like to frame it in terms of not only validating the dissenters and saying like, there's really difficult stuff happening. There's really high stakes, right? Like the

well-being of your family is a huge issue for these people. And even expectations of a prophet, right? That's kind of the foundation of a testimony. But I also like to remind those listening that Joseph felt betrayed too. You know, he was doing everything he could to follow the Lord. He was trying to build up a community. He was doing what the Lord had asked him to do. He was trying these different avenues. And instead, he's met with friends

decrying him as a fallen prophet and turning their backs on him and rejecting him and I can't imagine the toll that took. Yeah. Human beings are complex. Yeah. Good way to put it. No, that was so good. Yeah. Because it would be so easy just to blame Joseph. Just, you know, all of this is on him. When really, that's too much.

You can't put that on an individual that they should be omniscient and know everything before, right? Okay, so Joseph waits for his family to kind of rejoin him after he's forced to flee Kurtland and then they make the long trek to far west Missouri and arrive in mid-March. And the questions that form DNC-113 were likely written sometime between 16 and 29 March. That's stating that we've been able to establish based on the script rebook, the journal that they're recorded in, as well as Joseph's presence in far west. And the most likely time

is after a meeting of the High Council in Bishopric on 24 March, where Elias Higby could have kind of pulled Joseph aside and asked some questions that he had about Isaiah. Wow. So interesting that right in the middle of all this comes a question about scripture. You mean that in every part of church history people have questions about Isaiah? It's universal. Yeah, it's universal. It could unite us, all of us, of questions of Isaiah. So they've just been doing some studying, is this Elias Higby all these questions from Elias Higby? So only the second part. So the way that they're recorded, the first three are from an unidentified individual, maybe Joseph, maybe not,

and are clearly an answer from the Lord or framed in that kind of divine language. And then the next questions, those about, I think chapter 52, are those that were asked by Elias Higby. Okay. Can you tell us a little about Elias Higby? Do we know much about him? So he's a faithful member. Yeah. He dies faithful. I just, yeah. It wasn't his son, is it Francis Higby that goes against? Yes. In a very big way. Both of his sons really oppose him. And it's very much like dividing the family. It's too bad. Yeah, but Francis Sigby is very much against Joseph in kind of the 1844 context. The Navu period. Navu period. Yeah. But Elias Sigby here has some questions. I like this. Maybe I'm just being a little too, I don't know,

but I like that he's being driven. There's a lot of darkness. This is difficult. He's still in the scriptures. They're still trying to understand the structure. Hey, what does this mean? Hey, what does this mean? I like that. I think that's very refreshing to me. We don't need to go verse through verse through this because I will eventually get there as a podcast. Hopefully John, if we're going to do, if we're gonna do if we're gonna keep this going. Testament, yeah. And yeah, it's in Book of Mormon. But there can I can I mention something that yeah please point yeah John you're our Isaiah expert resident Isaiah expert tell us about it. Oh, they yeah that'd be me.

No there's there's something that I love the question in verse 9. Well, actually, verse 7, 8, 9, and 10, are these questions about Isaiah 52. Put on the strength of Zion. What people had Isaiah referenced to, and the answer in verse 8, he had referenced to those whom God should call in the last days, who should hold the power priesthood to bring again Zion. And the redemption of Israel Israel to put on her strength is to put on the authority of the priesthood which

she Zion has a right to by lineage and you know clothes and power and authority are often kind of metaphors for each other which is is wonderful and then losing this losing herself from the bands of her neck it says in verse 9 what's that and at the end of verse 10 it from the bands of her neck. It says in verse 9, what's that? And at the end of verse 10, it says the bands of her neck are the curses of God upon her. And this is what I find fascinating, Hank Elizabeth, is that this idea in Isaiah 52 is three different times in the book of Mormon. And second Nephi 8, in 3 Nephi 20, Jesus himself repeats it. And in Moroni 10, I mean, it's almost the last verses of the Book of Mormon. Moroni 1031, it ends with what? 34.

And Moroni talks about it. So the first two verses of Isaiah 52 are the awake, awake, put on nice strength, Ozain, put on the beautiful garments. So Jerusalem the holy city Henceforth there shall no more commentity the uncertain size and the unclean and then verse two Shake thyself from the dust to rise sit down on Jerusalem Loose thyself from the bands of the Inaac ol captive daughter Zion those are the first two verses of Isaiah 52 They're the last two verses of second Nephi 8 and Then in third Nephi 20, Jesus says, then she'll be brought to pass that which is written.

Awake, awake again, put on a nice drink, those eyes, put on a beautiful garments. Shake thyself from the dust, arise, sit down, O Jerusalem. And then Moroni, I love how he puts it at the end. And I'm going to read verse 30 because you have to hear the context. Again, I would exhort that you should come into Christ, lay hold upon every good gift, touch not the evil gift nor the unclean thing, and awaken a rise from the dastod Jerusalem yea and put on thy beautiful garment, so daughter of Zion, and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever. Now this is going to date me, Hank, but I want to, some of our

listeners might remember President Kimball talking about the threefold mission of the church. Does that ring a bell? To perfect the saints, to proclaim the gospel, perfect the saints, and redeem the dead. You just heard Maroni say the same thing in Isaiah language. Strengthen the Stakes is perfect the saints. In large thigh borders is proclaimed the gospel. And put on my beautiful garments is redeemed the dead, the things that we do in the temple through the power of the priesthood, right? So I get a little worked up about this

because I love Isaiah and I find, well, that's the threefold mission of the church Moron. I's telling us in Moron, I tend to participate in the work of salvation. And here, now we're hearing President Nelson talking about the gathering, participate in the work of salvation in the same way. So that's my little two cents. Oh, but can I add one more thing? I think you're in charge here. So, yeah, sure. No, no, I'm not.

But so the loose thyself from the bands of the neck, I mean, you know the Assyrians were the horrible, cruel superpower in Isaiah's day. And the invaders often took conquered inhabitants of the land of slaves, sometimes putting bands around their necks, and symbolically sin is like a band around our necks. So it says in 113 verse 10 there, the bands of the necr are the curses of God upon her. But if you read these verses, if you go back in Isaiah 52, 2 Nephihi, 8th, 3rd Nephi, 20, and see this phrase, shake thyself from the dust, arise, sit down. It sounds, make up your mind, arise, sit down, which one is it?

And I want to read Paul Hoskasin, who's one of my Old Testament professors. Do you remember him, Hank? I do. He's actually my cousin. What? I do remember him. Okay. I'm going to quote, cousin Paul for you here him Hank? I do. He's actually my cousin. What? I do. Okay, I'm going to quote cousin Paul for you here. And on one of those round table discussions on the book Mormon, he said that people of Israel should stand up out of the dust where they've been. Dust is a

sign of mourning, a sign of degradation. They ought to get out of the dust, out of their reason for mourning, out to arise. They ought to come in the house again because the Lord is going to accept them. They out to take a bath, put on new clothes, sit down with the Lord, share a meal with him once, once more as they did previously before they deserted him. So the arise out of the dust, sit down in dignity, shake thyself from the dust, and all of these are beautiful metaphors for how we come to Christ. Isaiah was using, and interestingly, here it is again, they wanted to know what does that mean. Still relevant today, threefold mission of the church, which became fourfold, which became live care invite unite, or all in there. Wow.

Great job, John. As a teacher, John, I'm sure you'd say the same thing. I've come to love Isaiah, come to love Isaiah, because I finally, I think I see what Nephi sees, right? That if you really want to believe in Jesus, read Isaiah, right? The Bible dictionary says, as one understands Isaiah better, they understand Jesus better. Right? And I think here we've got a couple of good questions about that, right?

And it was almost as if the Savior is going to say in this section, you're doing it right now, right? You're gathering my people in these last days. It's kind of fun that they're figuring out the gathering as they're in the middle of the gathering. That's awesome. Here's the Lord using Isaiah to re-energize Joseph, give him confidence, right? I wonder, I don't clearly don't know as much about Joseph's myth as you do, but if it was me, it would make me question. Am I doing the right things? Am I on the right path? Am I still who I think I am? Oh, man. Am I

who Emma thinks I am? Elizabeth, I think our listeners would love to hear from you on, you know, what you have learned about Joseph Smith and his contemporaries as you have spent your career now really in their lives, looking at their lives in depth, is in depth as anyone can go. What have you learned? I've gained a much greater appreciation for the weight of the mantle of prophet that Joseph held and of the man behind it. I think we sometimes focused so much on everything he was trying to accomplish, everything that he did, right, translating the book of Mormon, restoring the church. So many, just to use scriptural language, great and marvelous things, right? And we don't always get to see the man behind that. And some of my delights in searching through the papers are when you get to see the very human elements, right? The man that

very human elements, right? The man that is so excited to play in the snow with his children, who is burdens by leadership and by the struggles that he is facing, that he doesn't necessarily have solutions for. Dets, he cannot pay, that he wants to repay, that he is doing everything in his power to make a safe place for the saints, a place where they won't be persecuted, a place that they can prosper and create the Zion that has been his objective from the beginning. To do the will of the Lord, to continue the effort of restoration and all of the persecution and all of the difficulties that plague him over the course of his life. Working on 1842 was, again, it's a really hard year for Joseph. John C. Bennett is merciless and he's filing for bankruptcy, which has connotations of failure. And it's an ability to escape those debts.

And it's also the distinct generosity of character that I see in Joseph and saying, I'm not going to let anyone else be burdened by these debts, I will take them on myself. I will suffer for doing what the Lord asked us to do in Kirtland. That is still directly affecting him in 1842. And so I think there's just a greater appreciation for all that he is dedicating and all that he is doing for the saints. His objective is for their benefit is to establish Zion. That's a beautiful, absolutely. I just don't know how to thank you. Yeah, you've really blessed me today.

Thank you. These sections mean a lot to me. And it just, I've worked on them for a very long time and it's hard to see a narrative that won't change when I know it's wrong. Hopefully I can petition the scripture heading committee and get 111 changed and you know get us on a better footing that doesn't doesn't condemn Joseph for doing exactly what he was asked to do. Yeah and Elizabeth I don't know if I don't know what the other side looks like but I'm

I think Joseph and Emma are going to be there to shake your hand and say thank you for all of the good. I don't know about that, but I would like to meet them. We want to thank Dr. Elizabeth Keane for her time and her expertise, my goodness we've been blessed today. We want to thank all of you for listening. We're grateful for you. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson.

We love you. Our production crew, we have Lisa Spice, David Perry, Kyle Nelson, Will Staten, and Jamie Nelson. Thank you all for your work and effort. We hope every one of you will join us on our next episode of Follow Him. you