Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 121-123 Part 2 : Dr. Alexander L. Baugh

Episode Date: October 17, 2021

In Part 2, Dr. Alex Baugh returns to discuss how the events at Haun’s Mill influence the incarceration at Liberty Jail, the conditions at Liberty Jail, and the difference between enduring and enduring well. Dr. Baugh relates how good and loyal friends are a blessing in times of trial and difficulty.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Part 2 of this week's podcast. So they're taken by guard and they arrive on December 1. And this is Liberty Jail was built in 1833. It's an interesting jail. You've been there. You've seen the replica. I think, I I think literally millions of letter to saints have seen that.

It's that visitor center has been around since 1963. It's one of our oldest ones. And the church has done a nice job there. It's not entirely accurate, but it's really, really good. So December one, here they are. And on that day, Joseph Smith writes a letter to Emma. His second, well, let's see, this is actually, we have 12 letters that are extent from this period of the Liberty Jail and also Richmond. And he writes Emma on that date and says, we're now in Liberty jail.

And he says, I'm going to deliver this line by the hands of Captain Bogart, same guy that caused the problems in Ray County. And Emma gets that letter. And on the eighth and ninth, she's down there visiting him. And she comes down to visit her husband. So it's been a while. And I just want to make it very clear that the idea of incarceration back then was a little different than today. And they were entitled to visitors. And really from December 1, till about the middle of February,

Latter-day St. leaders, members, children, they're coming down and seeing Joseph and those incarcerated there. They have a lot of visitors. I've got over 60 people, and there's more than that, and I've got more to do there who are coming. We know they're allowed to spend the night there. Emma spends the night. They're allowed visitors.

You probably know both John and Hank. I found one little shred of evidence that Joseph Smith was also able to have his dog there for a time. Get old, old major. That's a big dog too to have in that little big dog But I think a lot of people have that image of them down below But they spent time both Above and down in the dungeon part. Is that is that right? John your spot on in fact Most of their time was actually spent if you want to say most of their waking was actually spent, if you wanna say, most of their waking time was spent on the upper story, where they would entertain guests, visitors,

their attorneys, and so on. Now at night, they put them down in the dungeon, we'd call it a dungeon, the lower level. It was a trap door. It would have had a ladder, not a rope. If you had a rope, if you weren't strong enough, you'd never get out. So it was, and we know from the jail over enrichment

that they had a ladder there, because one of the ladder they sent men there indicated that there was a ladder. So at night, they would be confined downstairs. And that's when Joseph, that's what he complains about. That he said, we had no way to have a fire unless, you know, we could put it on the rock floor, but there's no flu. There's no, there's no chimney. Now, there is definitely, and I found it, there's definitely a evidence there was a stove

upstairs. So it only makes sense to be able to building back then, you have to have a stove or some sort of heat component. And they did have one because I've got evidence that this county replaced the old stove. So there was more upstairs, but there's nothing downstairs, just cold. They're on, they're on.

Old damp, dark. Yeah. And I think we've all heard the story about the fact the ceiling was so low that Joseph couldn't fully stand up. I don't though that's true. Is that true? That's what I want to know.

Yeah. Yeah. Joseph was what, six feet, six one. Yeah, right in there. Let me, let me, let me just comment on that, John. Andrew Jensen went there, uh, with Joseph Smith Black and Edward Stephenson, who was an 18 year old, I think was 18 years old when the Missouri problems happened, but this was, this was 1888.

And, uh, uh, he meets the old deputy sheriff James Ford who they talk with and they really get a lot of information from him but Andrew Jensen as far as his measurements are concerned the upstairs story was seven feet from the main floor to the ceiling and downstairs in the dungeon it was six and a half feet. Now the idea that they couldn't stand up probably is because the Alexander McCray, according to the family, the McCray family was six feet six. So they kind of say, well, he probably couldn't even stand up. Well, none of them ever mentioned that they couldn't stand up. So, they might have elevated his height a little bit, but there was no question the others

were probably at least considerably below enough. So, I think that's one of the misconceptions they couldn't stand up. But again, at night, they're down there sleeping anyway, but none of them ever mentioned that they couldn't stand up. But again, at night, they're down there sleeping anyway. But none of them ever mentioned that they couldn't stand. And we don't have to make this. Alex, I've heard you say this before. We don't need to make Liberty jail harder than it actually was because it was hard in reality. We don't have to add anything to it because just in that dungeon, not knowing what's happening to your family, that dungeon, not knowing what's happening to your family, your core. The same.

It's dark. Yeah, you don't know where you know. And you said this was better than the Richmond one. Right. Yeah, the rich one won. I need me to laugh. I thought, oh boy. Yeah.

They're still trying to complete that one. It was. Yeah. Pretty ventilated there. But I remember the very thick stone walls, kind of no light. And what would define night? Does that mean 930 years? That mean as soon as the sun sets, you all go down to the dungeon. Well, here's some of the components of the jail. And again, you're familiar with this. It's it's it's pretty impanagerable. It's 22 feet on the outside by 22 and a half, excuse me.

So almost 22 feet square, but they had four feet of walls all the way around. So you had a foot of timber and then a foot of rock, loose rock, and then you had two feet of mortared stone. Yeah, so that if you were trying to dig through the loose rock would just fall down. There was no... It was kind of a clever

way to make it kind of escape proof almost. They could do it. And they actually were able to use an auger and actually got through the timber. But they would have of course come into that rock situation, which would have made it a little bit more difficult to try to get through the, which would have made it a little bit more difficult to try to get through the, the, this was the March attempt. But so thick walls, what the point I'm making here is you take a 22 by 22

and a half foot building and reduce it down four feet all the way around. That's 14 feet by 14 and a half feet. And my office at BYU is bigger than that. And I don't know about you, John and Hank, I love you. I think you're a great young man. But six guys down there at once. Yeah.

You need your space. And upstairs. Right. I think Joe's a get your dog out of here. Yeah. I think Joseph gets your dog out of here. For a period of time, we have five additional prisoners up there for a week. These are the ones that tried to help them escape. They finally let them go after a week.

Plus, we have higher-immentioning that we even had a guy in there by name of a corps when I think it was Juan and then he mentions another one who was not LDS, not literally saints. He was in there for a few days. So on other crimes, on other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. On other crimes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So psychologically. And you know this. There's something about confinement that can just break your nerves. And you just, and four walls, so confined. Now, they did leave.

They were able to go outside and exercise. James Ford said, I took them around the city. I'd walk them around, obviously, in their guard. He said, I gave them some good meals once in a while. So, they may know their attorney, too, right? Doesn't their attorney's office are right there? Yeah. In fact, Donovan's just down the road. His house is not even a block away. William Wood, we know he mentions that Joseph came there to his office, which is about four blocks away, and even loaned him a book, Robert Burns Palms.

And he said, never got the book back. So, so, Joseph, I don't know if he, that was an error on his part, but the point is, they're confined, but they're not as confined as maybe people think. I think most later, they say it's kind of this idea that they were in that dungeon 24, 7, and there's going to be a hearing late January,

Cindy Rigg didn't they have they were permitted to have a hearing for him. And he was released. And so that hearing took place for a couple of days down in the the courthouse just a couple of blocks away. So they're getting out, but they're certainly confined. I mean, you just can't get past that. That's a terrible place to be. And John, as you mentioned, there's no very little lighting. And the balls are so thick that for light to even penetrate those small foot and a half by 18 inches on downstairs

and two feet by, so a couple of feet. Now wonder they said, our eyes hurt. And you'd walk outside and you've been under, you've been indoors with candle power, kerosene lamp. So it's rough. Like one point, Alex, Hiram Smith says,

they felt like a zoo almost people coming by to stare at them. And look at the windows at them through the bars. Yeah, they were, they were a spectacle. They were, this was putting liberty on the map. Look who we got here, you know. So it's terrible. Let me just add probably the strangest name for a jail ever because it was in the town of Liberty. To call it Liberty Jail is such an oxymoron.

It's like the Freedom Prison or something I've always thought was as a kid Liberty Jail. You know? You know, John, that's another good point. Actually, the jail, we call it the Liberty Jail, but it was actually the Clay County jail. Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt, and you can tell this by the letters, right, Alex, and by the sections themselves.

These men were miserable. This was a miserable horrific thing. Well, Sydney Rigdon really had a hard time didn't he? What was the thing? He said about it. He was sick. He was not doing well. I think he garnered a lot of sympathy from the authorities. In fact, when they held his hearing, it's called, he was able to obtain a writ of habeas corpus and he went before the judge there. And as I understand it, I remember, right, they actually brought him in on a bed. And he pled his own cause. And Donovan later said he brought the audience and the judge, you know, those there, the spectators, to tears. I mean, it was, as you understand,

the spectators to tears. I mean, it was, as you understand, the legal kind of maneuverings in that time period, it was almost theatrical. I mean, you, you, you really put on a, on a show, but he defended himself and they did release him. Now he waited about 10 days before, I think it was George Robinson, his son-in-law, came down and picked him up and took him away.

So his time in the jail was a little bit shorter. So what, Alex, what brings on March 20th? Is there anything that prompts this, these revelations specifically? Or is it just, it was just getting so long that Joseph was wondering if God was going to intervene. So fortunately, I am just so grateful. I think we should all be so grateful that we have records of what happened in the jail, but more important than all, we have some letters that were very instructive from Joseph's Smith.

Now again, some are very personal. We have those letters from Emma that are just heart-wrenching. And you really see the heart and soul of Joseph Smith. This is a good man. Any historian who reads those letters would go, this man is devoted to his family. He's absolutely committed to the church. He's optimistic. Now, that changes a little bit. It doesn't start out that way, but but let me just highlight the fact that there's 12 letters. Now the letters that sections 121 and 122 and 123 come from are two letters and we use earlier before the Joseph Smith papers we kind of combined these two letters together, but now we've made them in the Joseph Smith documents sections.

We've made these the March 20th letter and then the circa March 22nd letter. So these are the two letters we actually get the the text for the three revelations. Now, when Orson Pratt's going through these letters and these materials that his disposal there in the historian's office, he could have just, you know, put the entire letters there. They're rather lengthy. So instead, of course, he just exercises excerpts of course, he just exercises excerpts that he thinks are the most important that would be relevant to a scriptural text, if I could say it that way. One that would stand as, oh yeah, this is good. This is instructive and it's doctrinal.

But I thought what he did was absolutely tremendous. He takes sections and excerpts that demonstrate to me, if you read the letter, Joseph is going along and you'll like to say he's given some instructions and talking about things and what to do and so on. And then all of a sudden you hear a Joseph Smith, the prophet, verses Joseph Smith the man. He is speaking in an elevated voice that you know it is under the influence of the Holy Ghost. There's just no question.

It's so eloquent and powerful and spiritually moving. And then all of a sudden, he drops back down to kind of the voice of the man, the voice of Joseph Smith. And I just, he got a spot on. These are just empowering, meaningful, insightful, eloquent. Just, he just rips your heart out. It's so beautiful and so powerful. And then like I say, I think Pratt was so discerning

and then it kind of comes back to the Joseph Smith more practical, especially 121 and 122. Orson Pratt was really good. And obviously inspired, there's just no question. So of these 12 letters, the two that we get this from are the March 20th and the March 22nd letters. Now, by this time, he's almost out of there. He's going to be released from that jail, the prisoners. Now again, Sydney's not there anymore, but they will be released within just a couple of weeks to go to Gallatin for a hearing and then they're going to get the change of venue and it's during that transport down to Boone County that they're going to be released.

But so he's nearing an end but the point I wanted to make is Joseph has a letter that he sends on December 16th and he is angry. He's hurt. He is so sad. Because now he knows I am in this jail as well as the others. I'm going to be here for a long time. And I don't like it. And this place is not a nice place to be. And I don't want to be here. And he is angry. There is no question. He mentions individuals by name who caused the problems, but in the end he softens. And that's what's so powerful about by March 20th. He's not vindictive. He mentions that people have forsaken him and the church. But he's not vindictive. And yet in the December letter, he's just hurt. He just can't believe people could testify against him and be his friends and do this kind of thing

that's got him in this predicament. Because now he realizes, and I think if we can take, look back at that November 3rd, he believes he's going to be out. But now he knows he's gonna be in here for a long time. This is not going to be resolved overnight. But I see a change in Joseph from the December to the March when he realizes this has been, I don't like this experience, but it's been refining.

And he's a different man. A different man. So anyway, I think we need to look at those passages and just again, note their eloquence and their sublime power. My goodness. We need a Lloyd Newell to read those first, those first seven verses, six verses. No kidding. Oh God, where aren't they? Where is the pavilion that covers thy hiding place?

Pavilion. I have to tell you, John and Hank, if you read this, you've got to get it, pull out a 1828 Webster's dictionary. What does he mean by pavilion? Well, we kind of got an idea, but you look at what Webster said, attend. There's something, I'm not quite penetrating the heavens. Joseph had marvelous revelations, and yet in Liberty Jail, it's been hard to connect. And it's been so miserable, it's been so disappointing, and he suffered so long. As the others, we have to give them their due understanding as well. And where are the saints? I'm here. They're, they're not leaderless, but I'm their leader. How come, how can I direct the church? If I'm sitting here in a 14

and a half by 14 cell, now fortunately, Brigham's taken a good charge here. And the 12 have picked up the slack. But, um, and he says, how long? And I think we've all felt this way, is God really hearing my prayers? We've all had feelings and experiences that we've pleaded for weeks or months, even years. Does God hear our prayers? Yes, He does, but it's on His time, not ours, in which they're answered. And his is going to happen. He's going to get out of this mess, but just hold on a little longer. I think this is giving him that hope. And then, of course, he's worried about those who have been oppressed and who have lost loved ones and who have suffered in the Exodus. Unfortunately, why do we always have to leave in winter? I just...

Oh my gosh. But you know what he's doing. Yeah. And the reason is, is because we've got to get there in the spring so we can get plants and crops. They've got to get over there before they've got to find some place. I'm estimating between six and eight thousand Latter-day Saints who need to find some place. We've got, I'm estimating between six and eight thousand Latter-day Saints who need to find a home. We've got displaced Latter-day Saints. What's going to happen there? So he's turning outward. He's not, he's going,

I'm in here, but they're out there. Where, where do we go? What are it's going to happen? We've got to move and we've got to move quickly. And these are the, we should probably mention Alex, the wonderful people of Quincy, Illinois. Without them, we don't survive. Yep. Unbelievable people. Again, I think some of their motivations were definitely, most of their motivations, I think were humanitarian. They're going, you guys need help. I think some of what was political, we have a lot of wigs over there and the wigs're going, you guys need help. I think some of what was political. We have a lot of wigs over there and the wigs are going, well, bogs was a Democrat. Democrats drove

you out. We're glad to take you, you know, kind of thing. And of course, economically, we double the size of Quincy pretty quick. And it helped businesses and so on. So, but I think their primary motivation was and those of you, you've been to Quincy and right there at Clad Adams Park is the monument to the citizens of Quincy for bringing us in. And my ancestor was baptized in Quincy because he was, he housed with a Latter-day St. Family. He was himself was just getting to Quincy. So his name was Ezra Taft Benson. So President Benson's great-grandfather. I have a Quincy. I think it's my might be my only pioneer ancestry story, but my fifth great grandfather, Samuel Alexander Pagan Kelsey, Zinc Quincy, saw some sort of a bulletin that said the Mormons will be

preaching. And the story we have is he said to my fifth great grandmother, those Mormons should be hickoryed out of the country. And she said, let's go listen. Bingo. And they did. I hope I got that right, Grandpa and Grandma. But and they listen or endowed in the Navu temple settled in Smithfield. I have those same fond feelings because again,

ET Benson, attended some Mormon meetings, LDS meetings, and he heard Orson Hyde preach and John E. Page pray, and he said, Johnny Page's prayer was the most eloquent prayer he had ever heard. So Quincy's, Quincy's, and I kid with my students a little bit, I ask him to name all the headquarters of the church, and every time they miss Quincy, it's the headquarters of the church. I think I would have. Until today. Yeah, yeah, Quincy, of course, you're right. So while he's, you know, being harbored with his companions in the prison, he's worried

about the Latter-day Saints. They're not leaderless, but they lack him. And so you see his supplication to the Lord for those who have suffered as a result of the religious faith and the conditions they're in. You can see that in verse 3. How long shall they suffer these wrongs? And your heart be softened towards them, and thy bowels be moved with compassion towards them. So it's not just me and us here, it's our family. You know, I love the two questions. Verse one, he didn't say, God are you real? He knew God was real. It was just where are you? I think that's significant. And also,

the how long in verse two and verse three, I've got in my footnote there. I mean, footnote three, a takes it to Alma 14, Alma and Ami like in prison, same question. How long do we have to stay here? So that's a good footnote. And another one I've noticed was the calling of the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 6 or in 2 Nephi 16, where the Lord, he kind of receives this call and tells you're gonna have a rough mission, I'm paraphrasing. And Isaiah says, how long? And the Lord gives kind of a discouraging answer

until the cities are wasted without an abiton. You know, everything's gone. So have a nice mission. But I like that that question has been asked before. And that God is kind of a fourth watch God to use the phrase that Esmico Wilcox taught me about coming on the fourth watch and we want him on the first watch but sometimes this timetable is different so I just I don't know I marked how long it's not I know you're gonna help us but when you know type of yeah John that that's so insightful. And interesting you'd bring up Isaiah and the ancients because in another letter, Joseph says, I think we're having to go through this

so that the ancients won't have anything on us and say, well, you didn't suffer like we did. As long as we did. And boy, as we know, those ancient prophets did not have glamorous days much of the time. Their opposition was intense. And Joseph, he says, at least we hopefully can be equal to or they can't say you didn't suffer like we did.

He mentions that. So that's a great point. That's interesting. He would mention it. Yeah. But he still asked for a little bit of revenge factor there. In verse 5, let dying anger be kindled against our enemies. They've persecuted the saints of God and the prophets, and they need just retribution. And God will do that in his own time and in his own way. And for many people, that'll be the final judgment. But vengeance is mine.

I will repay, say it Lord. I mean, he has his own way of dealing with those who persecute the saints and seem to have control over things at times. Yeah, I mean, there's answers. I can verse 24. I mean, he goes on and on, verse 24, hey, I've got my eyes have seen. I know all their works. I haven't reserved a swift judgment for them all. And verse 25, for there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be. Sometimes we just don't like to see the wicked prosper or prevail. And yet, in the end, they won't. There is no way. They will get their just reward. And for most of them, it's not going to be pretty.

Alex, it's interesting that he switches between verses six and seven from his own voice to the voice of the Lord. Is that how it is in the letter? Absolutely. And so now he's actually, I don't know, would we call it first person versus? Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's like the prayer is one through six.

The answer starts in seven. Yeah. So I probably didn't get that exactly right, but you're right. He's reflecting on his own thoughts and then he hears the voice of the Lord come into his mind. Now, here's the answer to your inquiry and your query. You're okay, you want to know? All right, I'll tell you a few more things.

First of all, have peace. Calm, you've got a troubled heart, but have peace and the gospel certainly does that. But then again, he says But a small moment. Now we can take that from a number of perspectives. I mean if you were to suffer from day one to day age 78 when you die every day of your life that suffering is minimal in comparison with eternity. But I think, so I think we can look at it that way, that Joseph, yeah, you're only gonna have 38 years and you've had some tough times,

but that's really a small moment in eternity. But I think he's also telling him, this thing might be just about over, and it is, It's within a month he's going to be home. He's going to be in the arms of Emma. And then he does say that you will see again your family and friends. Endure it well. That's eternity. You have Earth life. You have to endure it well. You're going to have a lot of opposition in life,

and life is tough. And there's a difference, Alex, between enduring and enduring well. And I would have to say, the right word is maybe words are optimistically and cheerfully and positively. And faithfully and remain faithful and things seem to work out and this is going to work out.

Now, he's going to have additional trials in Nahu that are pretty painful, but... And I think I do have to say, I think some Latter-day Saints think that the Saints never were happy, they never, every day was a bad day. It's not true. Joseph's got some good days ahead of it. He's not persecuted every second. He has happy moments. But he's promised exaltation and then that's when you triumph over all your foes. It may not be immortality, but the day will come when you will be in exalted, go equal with my son and me and they will be in a different circumstance and situation. So I think he's very consoled by the fact that thy friends do stand by. His true friends are still there and they will remain your friends. Now there were some who lopped off and yes, they were your friends at one time, but you know your Brigham Youngs,

your Heaver Sea Kimbles, your Parley Pratt, they're with you and they'll be yours again. I remember one time when Elder Maconkey said the book of Job is for people who like Job. That's right. But at the same time, Job went through H.E. double hockey sticks. I mean, it was, it was a pretty miserable thing. I know some biblical scholars think that's metaphorical or allegorical or something, but section 121 says he was a real person and he suffered. They're not yet as joe. He lost his friends. Jealous of at least you have those who are ready to stick

by you. I mean, half most of the book is about Jealous friends deserted him. Everything was fine at first. His friends just sat with him. Everything was fine at first. His friends just sat with him. And as soon as they tried to explain what God was doing, everything goes south. You know, poor guy. I mean, he couldn't have anything else. And what helped him friends with something in there. Yeah.

So I know I've appreciated that that he's telling him telling him Joseph you still have friends and what a support that is I remember somewhere just a beautiful statement of Joseph Smith about what it feels like to have a friend and The feelings it brought to his heart. I wonder if it is in this context. You know what I'm talking about I Have this quote, you know what I'm talking about? I have this quote for you, John. He says, yeah, he said, those who have not been enclosed in the walls of prison without cause or provocation can have but little idea. How sweet the voice of a friend is.

One, token of friendship from any source, whatever, awakens and calls into action every sympathetic feeling, it brings up in an instant everything that is passed. It seizes the present with the evidity of lightning, it grasps after the future with the fierceness of a tiger. Wow. He says friendship moves the mind backward and forward from one thing to another until finally all emnity, malice and hatred and pass differences, misunderstandings,

and mismanagement are slain, victorious at the feet of hope. Man, that is a beautiful statement. That is great. That's that's the one I was thinking of and it sounds like it really came from this experience because what was the first part Hank, those who have been enclosed? In the, yeah, incarcerated in a jail, they just can't understand how incredible it is. He says, the hell, little idea, the sweet, how sweet the voice of a friend is. Every time when Hank has come to visit me, when I'm in the lockup,

I've just appreciated it so much, you know. Hey, Alex Bos, that kind of friend, I'll tell you, I think we can pick up again here on kind of starting in verse 11. Lord tells Joseph Smith that those people who caused the problems will again, we kind of alluded to this, but they'll get their just desserts.

And I think we can safely say that Joseph knows exactly who he's talking about, or least referencing. Of course, again, those who charge thee with transgression. You don't want to accuse the prophets of things that they're not guilty of, and you don't even want to accuse the prophets. In fact, what does he say here in verse 15, or actually 14, that they may be disappointed also on their hopes may be cut off and not many years hence, that they and their posterity shall be swept from under heaven, say, if God that now one of them is left to stand by the wall. And then even stronger. And a curse that are those that shall lift up the heal against mine and noine and say, it's Lord and cry that they have sinned when they have not sinned before me. Say it's Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes and which I commanded them.

But who's the those who cry, transgression do it because they are the servants of sin and are the children of disobedience themselves. Those are powerfully strong words. But again, Joseph is not perfect. He hasn't been perfect and he knows that. But he does know that God is directing him and is leading and guiding those who are in authority. And maybe he didn't make all the right decisions, but God has backed him up. It's the same way today, the brethren are backed up by the Lord.

They are his andointed and he'll do with them what he will, but it is not our place to dictate anything to them regarding their responsibilities. And I just don't want anyone ever crying. The Joseph Smith's a bad person or he made mistakes, yes, but he was sanctioned by God. I wasn't there, the story of, was it Mary and G. Romney and Hever J. Grant

and Hever J. said, come here, Mary and go with me. And they talked about, and he said something about the fact that the prophets don't always, may not always do the very right thing in your mind, but he says, if you'll follow them, the Lord will bless you for it. You know, kind of thing. I didn't say that very well, but yeah, do it anyway. God will back up the prophets there. There there his people there his servants and and that you have no right to judge their motive or question their their integrity concerning gods

calling to them. I think I have that story for you. You've got Mary and J. Romney tells of this incident which happened to him. I remember years ago when I was Bishop I had President heber J. Grant talked to our ward How's that is, Bishop, right, President of the Church? After the meeting, I drove him home, standing by me, put his arm over my shoulder and said, my boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church. And if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it. Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, but you don't need to worry, the Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.

Perfect. Does that sound like it, Alex? That's it, that's it. Yeah. I've heard you say this before. This isn't a Nina, Nina, Nina type thing, but what happens to Jackson County in the Civil War is dramatic. According to, you know, from what I've read, uh, it is one of the most decimated counties

of the Civil War. All you see standing is chimneys, right? Have you read that? Yeah. Chimneys and smoke. Yeah. Yeah. It, it was a battleground of the Union and Confederate forces. Missouri was devastated. It was so divided by both Southern and Northern parties. And the Lord's language here in verses basically 11 through 20 something is there's a time appointed according to every man as his work shall be. So I don't wanna say the Lord did that, but there can be it's almost a man. You got to you can't treat people this way and expect that life

doesn't turn around on you. Yeah. Well, look at verse 23, we'll end all those that discomfort my people and drive and murder and testify against them, say, at the Lord of all say, generation of vipers and vipers is not a snake here. That's a person who is mischievous or a malcontent. She'll not escape the damnation of hell. So again, they're, they may, it may seem like they're escaping judgment, but again, it will, will come up to them. But, but it also says that, that verse verse 19, oh unto them that have offended my little ones, they shall be severed from the ordinances of my house. Now, it sounds like God's going to sever them, but they really probably sever themselves.

And then if you sever yourself, then you, since you're no longer a member of the church, that means probably your children won't be, and that means probably their children won't be. So, it's a multi-generational, if I want to say it this way, punishment, kind of the natural consequences. Yeah. Yeah, I just wonder today, I'm maybe sticking my head out on, you know, singing out on limb here, but I wonder how many relatives

or descendants of William E. McClellan are in the church? Or there's not many if there is any. I, you know, maybe there are some, but the Whitmer's, there's only a few Whitmer family members that have come back. And so maybe, again, the long-term consequences for disobedience is multi-generational. There's just no question.

And so I think maybe, Lord, that's how he's saying their punishment will not only affect them, but those who follow them in terms of their posterity. And that's a sad thing. At the same time, you know, they didn't cause that. I mean, there's obviously there's wonderful people out there who may have descended from terrible Missouri people or even former Latter-day Saints that haven't or not guilty of any of that, but the decisions and activities of people as long-term consequences. He does seem to switch away from the anger

in round verse 26, am I reading this right? God's given to you knowledge by His Holy Spirit. Now, a great transition here, by the way, that's a new excerpt. Starting verse 26, or some praga another one right here, or a little gem. I think he's trying to tell Joseph Smith, there's more revelations to come. And how do you get revelation through the Holy Ghost? And look what he says here. This is the dispensation of the fullness of times. Not only will we have things past revealed, but things never before revealed. And he kind of alludes to these. Look at this at time in which nothing will shall be withheld. Whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest. I immediately go, I can't fault discourse. Oh, wow. Got that one to come. Look at down here.

He picks it up. Verse 29, all thrones and dominions, principalities and powers. And also if there be bounds set to the heavens or to the seas or to the dry land, the sun, the moon stars, look at 31, all the heavens or to the seas or to the dry land, the sun, the moon stars, and look at 31, all the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, you read the opening passages of chapters of the book of Abraham. Now, Joseph's worked on that a little bit in Kirtland, but it's not till Navu, he's going to get time to finalize that text. And what's it talking about those first chapter two or three of the universe and the worlds and colab and oh my gosh. So the Lord is saying, one of the reasons things are going to get better is we're going

to give you more revelation. And think of what, think of how much revelation we've received since Joseph Smith. The restoration is still unfolding. Everybody wants to say the restoration took place through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Well, yeah, it began there, but can you imagine what's going to be in the future? I am so optimistic of this church. And what the Lord will do with the Holy, through the Holy Ghost, additional light and truth and knowledge and understanding of the gospel.

To paraphrase the Carpenter, we've only just begun. We've only just begun. This kingdom is, you know, Joseph said, you know, in 1834, was it, you've only seen a handful of priesthood here tonight. People worried about the kingdom. Well, we're always worried about it, but the most glorious days I think are ahead. And certainly in Joseph's day day it's gotten rough spots that we've got some rough spots to go through. But I think this is an optimistic look at the the future of the church and that there's more revelation, more knowledge, more power, more understanding. And so how does he? How does he? I love this. How does he explain it in Joseph's terms? How long can rolling

waters remain on pure verse 33? What power shall stay the heavens as well as man might stretch for this puny arm? What a word to stop the Missouri River in its decreed courses to turn it upstream. There is no way shape or form that man could have put any kind of a dam on the Missouri River in 1838. And yet, so I love the analogy here, whatever. You think I can't pour out revelation. I can do it in a jail. I can do it any place, any time, anywhere.

And the truths are glorious. So, I just think that's a wonderful, optimistic kind of eloquence of the Lord trying to say, there's more to come. The movie's not over, and the best is yet ahead. I think, President Nelson, is see the first to kind of talk about this guys the just a continuous restoration, a continual restoration. I thought I was so glad he said that that it's it began with like you said with Joseph Smith, but it's continuing and there's there's more to come.

Yeah. And again, our article of faith, we believe all that he has revealed, but he will yet reveal many great and important truths pertaining to the Kingdom of God. So, well, in 34 now, he's kind of reflecting here about those who've gone by the wayside. And it's probably again, it's cited so many times in general conference. But in the context then of what we've talked about, I think we can understand a little more fully that he is saying that we've had a number of later days

saying men, and we could, I guess, include women, as course, who've made covenants, they guess, include women, of course, who've, you know, they've made covenants. They've been with us. They're ready to, they've made wonderful contributions. So they've been called. They've been terrific. But to really be chosen, you've got to maintain the covenant path. And if you're not what happens, well, the priesthood you've had and the authority

you've had may not have it anymore. David Whitmer wants to start a church. Well, I guess he could go ahead. He never came back, but he started a church. Did he prosper? Well, I don't think so. Called you bet chosen. Well well for a time, but what happened to his authority? Well, amen to it. You know, again, he was formally executed, so he lost that authority in that process, but there's a lot of people who, or a lot of leaders that have just walked away from the church, never, any, haven't lost the priesthood per se, but they've certainly, the authority is gone after a period of time

and they have no ecclesiastical authority whatsoever, nor do they have the power associated with that. So I think that's, he's reflecting on the ones who were with him at one time and they had the authority and they had the power, but both, you know, amen to that now, the authority of priesthood of that man. It's an interesting use of the word amen too, because if we generally think amen is, you know, a so be it, and I always tell my students, amen there means sayonara. But it's like, yeah, it's not so be it to the priesthood authority that man.

It's no, it's gone. They don't have it. Amen is kind of, what would you say? That's the end of it, perhaps. Yeah, that's perfect. And I love the list there. Cover our sins, gratify our pride, exercise, compulsion or dominions, kind of giving us this, you may have been conferred. You may have had somebody lay hands on your

head, but when you, all these bullet points, then, Sionara, to the priesthood of the authority of that man, am I saying that right? Yeah, yeah. For the Sionara part. And And you know, he says it's it's it's babble on that pulls them away. Their hearts are set upon the vain things of this world, whether it be authority, whether it be prestige, whether it be you know, gosh, it's just too cool not to go to church anymore. I'd rather be you know, Lake Powell all summer, you know, It can have so many kind of dimensions in terms of, you know, they're not doing evil, evil, but they're just pulled away by the world so that that becomes their God and their motives for happiness. I guess you might say when really the power comes from continual repentance, faith, exercising the fundamental

principles of the gospel. And the Lord hates hypocrisy. Oh my gosh. It does. Hypocrites just don't have priesthood power. If you're living a lifestyle deep and dark and evil things, you will not have power in the priesthood. There is just no way. It's just so evident that righteousness, you know, all things are predicated upon righteousness and obedience. And if you want power, you've got to exercise that type of faith and obedience to

receive the power that is associated with priesthood. When I had that chance to teach New Testament, who did Jesus have the most? Who was he harder on? Sinners or hypocrites? I mean, specifically, yeah, the ones that he was hardest on the hypocrites, the sinners, they wanted to be with them. They, you know, they wanted to hang around. And he, he was gentler with them, but boy, with the hypocrites, he really let him have it. That's, you know, Matthew 24 and stuff. When it says chosen, it might confuse someone,

but it really is, if you're gonna say it in our language, I think you'd say something like, many sign up, but few show up, right? I mean, it's the idea of... Oh, it's a good way to put it. And why don't they show up? Well, two reasons. One, they care about the things of this world more than the things of God, and they care more about what people think than anything else. And then he says, you can't learn just this one lesson that righteousness is the key.

Obedience is the key to power. I think you said that perfectly, Alex. I mean, this is beautiful language. I wanna read something from President Oogdorf who said, there is a reason that almost every lesson on leadership at some point arrives at the 120 first section of the doctrine of covenants. In a few verses, the Lord provides a master course

in leadership, no power or influence, can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long suffering, by gentleness and meekness and love, unfained. He goes on, the character traits and practices described in these verses are the foundation of godly patience and are inseparably connected to effective service. These attributes, we give you strength and wisdom in magnifying your calling and preaching the gospel in fellow shipping and giving the most important service,

which is indeed in loving service within the walls of your own home. I mean, it's just, I think he's exactly right. What do you do? Call it a master class in leadership. And again, how often is that scripture quoted to us as priesthood brethren that that in our homes, and certainly primarily in our homes, but also, of course, in our priesthood callings, it just has to be a ministry of love and kindness and compassion and humility, because you just can't, God can't stamp a person who, and say, you know, I'll back you up in that kind of a person who uses his authority incorrectly. And for self-angrant eyes, Mendoor, for, you know, I'm in charge kind of thing. You just have to have that humility factor all the time.

And I will say this, Hank and John, that I think this verse was also very directed to Joseph Smith. And the reason I say that is because Joseph could be pretty harsh at times. And I think the Lord is just kind of telling him here, you know, you could learn from this Joseph. Now, again, I'm being a little judgemental here, but I just, I give an example. I mean, I think it was Brigham Young's daughter. Was it Zyna? Anyway, she talked about how one time,

I think it was in Kirtland. And again, if I don't get the whole story right, the idea is there. But I think Brigham, Joseph had Brigham stand up and he just went after him. And I tell you, Brigham, you know, nobody loved Joseph more than Brigham. And he finally, I think he after resolved then, Brigham goes, do you know the story, he goes, Joseph, what would you have me do? And that just set Joseph, he's gone, oh man, I was too hard on him.

I, and he just wept, I mean, he's, you know, he just, he took that authority too far. Now, who has all the authority? It's Joseph Smith, there's no question. And, and I think Lord's trying to tell him here, Joseph, you have to be, this applies to you as well. You have to be careful not to come down too hard or to be too dogmatic.

I'm just coming up with some thoughts here, but this was probably very introspective for Joseph. And what do you do if you have to approve, hopefully out of love and kindness, but you better do it with an show and increase amount of love. And that Joseph did. That is, he knew how to turn around and forgive. One of our faculty members, years ago, Arnie Gar, talked about Joseph Smith, man of forgiveness. He could take a Sylvester Smith who caused all sorts of problems on Zion's camp and he turns around for a gives him and puts him in the corn of the corn of 70. I mean, that would have been the last guy I would have put in there.

And yet he did. And so the point is, this applies to all of us, but I think even to Joseph Smith, there was a little bit of a, a tinge of counsel here that Joseph, this is certainly something you could work on as well. Now, I don't mean to ever come in judgment at Prophet Joseph,

but I think he learned something from this very verse that he'll apply much better in the Navu period. Even as parents, we can exercise unrighteous dominion. Can't we, with our power and authority, as we suppose? We do this as teachers sometimes. We do this in teachers sometimes. We do this as in our callings. This unrighteous dominion. And it seems that it's a natural Joseph seems to say it's a natural thing to do. It is learned nature and disposition. As soon as people get a little bit of a pride in them,

they immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. And I think that would apply to Joseph and all of us too, Alex, wouldn't you? I mean, it's the same thing. Absolutely. Yeah. We're all susceptible. Please join us for part three of Follow Him. you