Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 125-128 Part 2 : Dr. Jennifer Reeder

Episode Date: October 31, 2021

Dr. Reeder returns to discuss the first baptisms for the dead, including Emma Smith being baptized for her father, Isaac Hale, and the joy the Saints experienced knowing their family members were saved. They discuss how the salvation of our ancestors is essential to our salvation, and why temple work is essential to God’s plan for His children.Shownotes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive ProducersDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Assistant Video EditorSpanish Transcripts: Ariel CuadraFrench Transcripts: Krystal RobertsPortuguese Transcripts: Igor Willians"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. Section 127. He opens it up, referring to the accusations of John C. Bennett and our nemesis, former Missouri governor, Lilburn Boggs, who had sent out the extermination order. And he talks about the perils that he's passing through. I love verse two. John, do you want to read verse two? And as for the perils which I am called to pass through, though they seem but a small thing to me as the envy and wrath of man have been my common lot all the days of my life. And for what cause it seems mysterious, unless I was ordained from before

the foundation of the world for some good end or bad, as you may choose to call it, Judgy for yourselves. God knows with all these things, whether it be good or bad, but nevertheless, deep water is what I want to swim in. It all has become a second nature to me, and I feel like Paul to glory and tribulation, for to this this day has the God of my father's delivered me out of them all and will deliver me from henceforth for beholden low I shall triumph over all my enemies for the Lord God have spoken it. What an incredible attitude. Yeah. It's like he's saying I'm it's second nature to me like I'm used to it now. I would never get used to that. No. But it kind of reminds me of Joseph Smith history, right? Where he talks about how all

these people are against him. And I just think, wow. Yeah, it's just, it's been 22 years since he went into the grove and he's like, yep, this is nothing strange blind ever since. I just wanted to know what church did join. Now look at me. Yeah, we'll go on into years later. So he goes on to give some instructions about baptism for the dead and the importance of keeping record. And I love how he quotes from Matthew in verse 7 about binding on earth, what maybe bound in heaven. And I actually think this is, I think this is really significant because I think it goes

back to what Marona told Joseph in his bedroom in 1823 and what is section two of the doctrine and covenants. Like this is just this is not a one-time recitation of a scripture in the middle of the night. It's something that has continued this whole idea of salvation and how which continues in section 128 for the salvation of the dead who should die without a knowledge of the gospel. And he talks about how their salvation in verse 15 is necessary and essential to our salvation that they, without us, cannot be made perfect. Neither can we, without our dead, be made perfect. So I just think that's so interesting

how that, it's all coming full circle, right? And it's all family. It's the hearts of fathers and children and binding us together, temple, all about family, everything. And so was the spirit of Elijah that we talk about. And that everything Malachi said was all about

binding this family together. Right. So he had that powerful experience in the Kirtland temple, which is now in section 110, where he is visited by these people that give these priesthood holders, they give him the keys to actually do this. But think about that was in 1836. He learned about this from Moroni in 1823. That's 13 years, right? And now, and it isn't until 1840 that he learns about the baptisms for the dead.

So it's just coming piece by piece over time. It's a progression of understanding. It's almost like Moroni introduced an idea. All right, and the process begins, and it's a long process from 1823 now to 1842. Right. Where, yeah, I like what you line upon line just a little bit at the time. Yep.

A continuous restoration, yeah. I love it. President Nelson says that, and I think it's true. So glad. I love that this idea is kind of fermenting in his head. Right. So he's trying to figure it out. And I love the idea of the turning to the fathers.

And I think about Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and this whole Abrahamic covenant and the house of Israel and all being a part of this. The same sociality that exists in this life will continue in the next life. And the idea that we are welded together and bound together in this covenant, in this new and everlasting covenant, I think it's so beautiful. Joseph calls it in 128.9. This is a very bold doctrine that we talk about.

I love that idea. That yeah, we are talking about binding together from Adam to 1842 to 2021, and it's a big idea. I just, I love the idea. I've talked about as Hank is that sometimes the Lord gives us these tasks that seem so impossible. I want you to find the name of every person who's ever lived on earth and go through their

work for him. You know? And, you know, we're going to go on in the millennium, I think we've been taught, and some that have never kept records somehow will have all of that, but it's all about binding the family together. And Hank, you mentioned the word bold in the manual that said, Joseph Smith used phrases like binding power, welding, link, and perfect union when teaching about priesthood ordinances and baptism for the dead. Why is bold a good word to describe the doctrine of salvation for the dead? So, yeah, there's a lot of great adjectives here because nobody in the Christian world was doing this.

No, and in fact, in our day, I think it's so interesting with a pandemic. What was the temple first opened for? Living ordinances and baptisms, the second thing was baptisms for the dead. And you know what, what gave me a lot of hope when, when the pandemic started and we were all wondering how long and so forth. What gave me hope was that we still kept hearing about new temples getting announced in general conference. I was like, no, we're moving forward. And the temple work for the dead will go forward. I can't imagine the slow down in the spirit world.

Everybody's shuffling through, getting their work done. And then it all comes to a screeching halt. What happened? How they shut up, they shut everything down down there. So I'm an ordinance worker in the Okre Mountain Temple, and I love every part of it. I worked in the Salt Lake Temple before it closed, and now I'm down in South Jordan,

but I love watching the youth come in to do baptisms and how excited they are. And they have their recommends and they've done this a ton of times. This isn't like when I was young, we went like once a year with our award. But these kids, right? These kids come all the time. And have they have to make appointments which I love So they can only have 16 in our temple being baptized at a time And then it's so fun on the other side of the temple to watch adults come in and do Indicatory and do and the endowment and do ceilings and see this

brand fresh new excitement of being able to come back to the temple. It's incredible. Elder John H. Groberg of the other side of heaven, some of the young people may have seen that movie, some of the old people too, but he wrote this book called Refuge in Reality and he tells this story and I'll paraphrase his best I can, when he was president of the Idaho Falls Temple. He said he used to hear people leaving the temple and kind of sighing and saying,

oh, back to the real world. And he said, I knew what they meant, but it kind of bothered me. Something about that phrase bothered me, and I'd hear it again now, I go, well, back to the real world. And he said, one time I heard somebody say that, I've went up to the real world and he said one time I I heard somebody say that I've One up to the front door and I said wrong only that which is permanent is real

What happened in here today is permanent and that is real that world out there is temporary that world is going to end This is the real world come back soon to the real world They said okay. Thanks president And I thought oh what a wonderful way to look at it. This is the real world. This is the eternal world that's going to last. And that world out there, that's the temporary one that we're having so many ups and downs in.

I love that. That's great. I've heard someone say with the fall of Adam and Eve, you know, with the Garden of Eden was an overlap of heaven and earth, and then the fall comes and splits them apart. And then Jesus comes and stretches out his arms and pulls them together and more. Where they first start to overlap is the temple. They first start to overlap right there.

And soon they'll be brought back together again, right? That heaven and earth we back together again. But for right now, they're just overlapping a little bit, and it's there at the temple. Yeah, I always love that idea. Yeah. That's awesome. Jenny, is there anything else in 127 and 128 we need to see?

Well, I don't think we can leave 128 without reading some of those incredible verses. Right. Right. Verse 12, Hank, why don't you read that? Okay. Herein is glory and honor and immortality in eternal life, the ordinance of baptism by water. To be immersed therein in order to answer to the likeness of the dead,

that one principle might accord with the other, to be immersed in the water and come forth out of the water is the likeness of the resurrection of the dead in coming forth out of their graves. Hence, this ordinance was instituted to form a relationship with the ordinance of baptism for the dead, being in likeness of the dead. I mean, that is just a beautiful idea, right? That here I'm gonna be baptized for someone who has died and they're being resurrected.

I mean, they're gonna to come back to life. I love it. And I think it's just what you guys were talking about, that overlap of the before the fall and after the fall and after the resurrection, you know, and of the real world, like John said, I think it's really cool. Paul talks about we're buried with him by baptism. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. about we're buried with him by baptism. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Then we walk in newness of life. I'm glad to have a kind of a parallel text here to say, yeah, baptism is like being buried

under the waters like like a death. Roman 64. Therefore, we are buried with him by baptism into death. That like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. So that's Romans 64, a good footnote to make there if you want. I love the imagery of the sacrament because I think it's very similar. And I've heard people talk about this and maybe you can speak more to it, but that it's like there's a body laying under that white cloth and then we're taking of that body It's coming out and we're ingesting it and we're remembering the body and the blood and the covenants that we've made and it just

Reminds me of that and that bread living bread and living water Gives us that life to to stand back up and leave the church and go to the real world. Yeah. It's like the sacrament table is a table of communion, like we're eating the last supper, but it's also like an altar when, remember the body and the blood of Christ. And I, I've loved that idea.

I had a friend point that out to me, Kim Peterson teaches Institute down in Sears City and he said, you know, you walk in the choppy and see that cloth covering the sacrament table almost resembles a body being covered by a cloth. And we're remembering Jesus' body and blood. And yeah, I'm glad you brought the sacrament into that because baptism in the sacrament, you know, let's go together. 128 verse 15, I think we just looked at this. He said that they without us cannot be made perfect, as the very end. Either can we without our dead be made perfect. I remember looking at this for the longest time, kind of understanding the idea of they need us. We have physical bodies. We're going to go do these ordinances. But I, after looking at this for the, you know, for just a couple of years thinking about it, there is a work happening on their side on our behalf.

I'm not quite sure what it is, what they do exactly, but I do believe that, that just like we're going to the temple to serve them, they are in response serving us, and there's a connection there, especially our ancestors, right? Those who are looking for the Lord. There's so many interesting stories about people that have come from the spirit world, and even they always appear to be busy, right? Like they're not floating around.

They are busy over there doing, and it would be fun to know what that is, wouldn't it Hank, exactly what it is? But probably working for, as it sounds, working to help us. And we're working on angels. Yeah. Speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost, right?

So we might all go, oh, I felt the Holy Ghost, I felt that Holy Ghost, but it could be these angels looking on our own back. Like a delegation, you know. Yeah. Well, and I just keep coming back to Malachi. If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted. That you can't have a select few that are saved, but it's everybody. Everybody has to have that opportunity and what a great and gracious and loving God. That that he just in versus quoted again in 128. Yeah. This is this one shows up in all the standard works over and over and over. Malachi. Yeah. Malachi's prophecy. And I love that when Jesus comes to the New World, I mean, he's the one that revealed it to Malachi. But he honors and respects his

servant and gives them the words of Malachi when he comes to the righteous in the New World, which I think, oh, that's interesting. He doesn't just say, well, I told Malachi this. He says, interesting. He doesn't just say, well, I told Malachi this, he says, this is what Malachi said. That's cool. Yeah, it just all comes together, right? And it comes together for us to every Sunday or tomorrow, I'm going to go work in the temple. Every time we make an appointment to work in the temple, I love the whole idea of how we can become saviors on Mount Zion. Eliza Arsno talks a lot about that. And I think that even goes back to the relief society, the ideas of finding relief by providing relief, and saving souls by caring for others.

You know, it's this sense of doing something that they, people can't do for themselves, of me sitting the stairs and Mary and Anderson coming over and sitting with me and how much I needed that and in that moment she was like Jesus Christ for me just bringing me under her arms and she in that moment was a savior on Mount Zion for me, I just think it's such an incredible connection of at one meant of coming together to do what Christ would do. Yeah, and that's gotta be why he wants this done one by one, right? I could take you to the temple and say, I baptize you for and we have every woman who's ever died. Yeah, we can be real efficient about this. Yeah. But the Savior says, no, we're going to do this one by one. And it's very much a savior way of doing things.

He does things one by one. Each individual, it's important. We're going to, we're going to look at each one. Oh. And we're going to find as much of their name as we can and pronounce it the best that we can. Yeah. It's been fun to see my 15-year-old son has been called as a, what do they call it, a family history consultant,

consultant or specialist or something. And without any pushing from mom, dad, there he is on the computer doing a name extraction. And you walk by and you go, I just feel the spirit of Elijah. And there's Timothy going at it and helping to do this work. I think kind of elder Bednar that we got to get the use of all of this, you know, and they're good with technology. And look what wonderful thing you can do with technology, which has been fun to see that so many young people involved in this, like we've been talking, spirit of Elijah.

Yeah, yeah, when I was really sick, I, well, I've had my leukemia has come back three times, and I've had two bone marrow transplants, but there've been a couple times, And that was after I moved to Utah. So I was closer to family, which was nice. But my, I did a lot of sitting around, you could say. My stepdad is like the master indexer. And every time I see him, he catches me up on the number he's at. But he introduced me to indexing because that was something.

Again, I felt like I could do from my couch or my bed with my laptop. And it's, it's again, I am helping this effort. And in a sense, I am becoming a savior on Mount Zion, even if I'm in my pajamas and have no hair, you know, it's really, really an exciting program. In fact, I'm a lot busier now in my life, you could say, but my ward family history person texted me and said, hey, I see that you used to index. Can I invite you to do that again some more?

And I'm like, are you kidding me? I have no time now. But then I'm like, you know what? I've got 10 minutes on a Sunday to capture some names. Yeah. And I've gotten to be pretty good at reading old handwriting.

It just comes with my job. So I'm like, I have the skill I might as well. Jenny, you said it's so exciting. And I notice that in 128, Joseph gets so excited in his writing. It's, you know, he's writing these doctrines and how he's very, you know, let's look at the scriptures, let's look at first Corinthians,

let's look at Malachi. Let's look at first Corinthians. Let's look at Malachi. And then towards the end, this sense of excitement comes, reminds me of second E5, four, it starts in around verse 19. Now, what do we hear in the gospel? Yes. Oh, I love these verses.

A voice of gladness, right? That is just a, you can, you get to know Joseph Smith a little bit here. Right. Part of this, I think, has got to be his brother, Alvin, how excited he is for that. And I love to emphasize the word we and that. What do we hear? A lot of people, critics might look at us and say this or that or about the church or the gospel or our work, but what are we here?

We hear gladness, we hear mercy, we hear glad tidings. It kind of reminds me of that. I love, and I too, I love verse 22, where he says, shall we not go on in so great a cause? Go forward and not backward. Courage, brethren. I went to Italy in my mission and they'd always say, Courage, Joe, have courage. Help me out. What's where is he writing this from? Because he's in the

midst of a lot of trials himself and look at the optimism coming out from. Well, and I think, let's just contrast that to section 127 verse 2 that we read, where he says, is for the perils I am called to pass through, deep waters is what I am want to swim in. And then the next, what is it the next day, a couple days later, he says, let's go on, let's go on to the victory. And he's actually writing this while he's in hiding in Navu. Okay, yeah, that's what I was wondering because he's in hiding, but he's writing, hey, courage, let's go on on to victory. Yeah, yeah, and I love it. I think it kind of reminds me of that little footnote that Oliver Cowdery writes in Joseph

Smith history, you know, and they receive the priesthood. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, that little five, that little, yeah, there's, there's, I think seven exclamation points in there. Yes. And you don't, yeah, the, the actual section, what is it? 13 John the Baptist comes, but when you hear Oliver describe it, we gazed, we wondered, we admired. He's just so excited. Oh, these were days never to be forgotten. Yes, great phrase right there. That's what it all of this reminds me of. Uncertainty, all of our rights, uncertainty had fled, doubt had sunk no more to rise. Well, fiction and deception had fled forever. I mean, just just beautiful writing. And I'm looking at you,

Jenny, I'm going, okay, here's Joseph Smith in hiding saying, wow, my life is really hard. And, but I'm excited. And you remind me doing the same thing. Here you are going through. You said your leukemia has come back three times. And here you are very excited about the temple, the gospel, and church history in writing. I just think there's a lesson there for all of us that you can be in deep water, you can be in deep water and the gospel can penetrate that and lift you. I think we throw the phrase around so often, but it is so powerful to have an eternal perspective, which Jenny clearly has, you know?

And this is- Some days that don't. Yeah, some days. Yeah, but- On most, yeah. Today I have a finite perspective. It's a finite day, but like just reading these scriptures and talking helps me realize how great it is to be alive

and to be here and to be a part of this conversation and to be doing the work that I'm doing with women's history and making their voices and their names known. Like it's so much more than just recording it in the book or in the computer at the temple, but to know who they are, to know who Jane Nyman was, and to know Emma, and to know that they were real. And they too rejoiced in this.

I love it. Yeah. I love it too. I want, if we can read just a couple of these verses because if we continue into verse 19, it's a voice of gladness, John, you said a voice from mercy, a voice of truth, a voice of gladness for the living and the dead. Glad tidings of great joy. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those that bring glad tidings of good things and that say, if undesired, behold thy God reigneth. And then he goes

on in verse 20. And what do we hear? Glad tidings from Camora. Right. And all these exclamation points of these experiences he's had. He's going back saying, I have had incredible experiences and then 22 Jenny, the one you read, brethren shall we not go on and so great a cause. Go forward. Not backward, courage, brethren. On, on to the victory. Let your heart's rejoicing be exceedingly glad. Let the earth break forth into singing. I mean, you can't read this and not feel it. Well, and you can't read it and not smile, right? Like we are a part of this.

How cool is that? And I love, first 23, ye rivers, brooks, and rills flow down with gladness. All of nature is celebrating here. Let the sun, moon, morning stars sing together. And let all the sons and daughters of God shout for joy. I think so often we get caught up in the in the details of our lives and how things are going to work out and how we're going to get somewhere on time and how we're going to complete an assignment or clean the house or whatever that we forget that we should be shouting for

joy, that we have this doctrine and that we have this understanding of our place in this continuous restoration and that we have joined with Joseph and Emma as well as Adam and Eve and Abraham and Sarah that we're all a part of this. We're going to turn our hearts to them part of this. We're going to turn our hearts to them as they have worked to teach us and guide us and bring us into this great house of Israel. And then we reach out automatically for each other. We're all part of this same work. He says towards the end, I mean, this is, I just, he really puts a stamp on the end of it. He said, let us therefore as a church and a people and his latter-day saints offer under the Lord an offering in righteousness and in towards the end let it be worthy of all Acceptation. I mean, it's just the Malachi again. He's so excited.

At the end of verse 23, I mean, he's bringing all these, this temple language, right? From the ceiling ordinance, that glory and salvation and honor and immortality and eternal life, principalities and powers. Oh my gosh, that's so much. It's everything. I love that this is a letter, not a revelation. I've loved the revelations we've been reading,

but it does let you into the personality of Joseph Smith, the man here in these letters. Verse 25, brethren, I have many things to say, you're on the subject, but now it closed for you. You're like, no, don't, don't, keep going. Keep going, what else you got? He's like, I got writer's cramp. This is killing my hand.

With my turkey quill. I think Hank, we've talked about this, but you lost your dad recently. I lost my mom recently. I have this picture of my mom right here on my desk and I have this statement of Valor Holland. Don't underestimate your family on the other side of the veil. And as we've talked, what are they're doing and what can we, what can they do for

us? What can we do for them? I thank you, Jenny, for bringing up the saviors on Mount Zion idea. Just what you, we hear it a lot, but we can do for others what they cannot do for themselves right now in their present state. And that's the excitement of temples. Who gave the talk in general conference about the temples at the end, present Nelson just really made me want to get back there, you know. Right. Merrill Bateman, I remember, President of BYU for a really long time.

Okay, yeah, I remember the first quarter of the 70, then becomes the Provo Temple President. And I got a chance to talk to him after that. And he said, you know, in all my work as a general authority, and that was a lot of work, you know, a lot of time. He said, I never saw or knew how thin the veil was in the temple until this calling as temple president. He just said, I just never understood the work that goes between the two. And that was a moment for me where I thought, wow, even

as a general authority said, he didn't see it until serving there in the temple. That's so awesome. We just got a new temple presidency in the Okermountain temple. And their sort of theme or motto for us as workers is come to the temple and receive Christ. So, and we, again, we've talked a little bit about how this is kind of a process,

and it happens over time. And the men received their endowment in May of 1842, and the women didn't receive theirs until September of 1842 and the women didn't receive theirs until September of 1843. So it's a little off, which is interesting. However, I think something that's really interesting is that Nulke Whitney, the day after he is initiated into this holy order or receives his endowment, he comes to the Navi Relief Society and he says like he can't get it out of his head He can't stop talking about it and he tells them the Lord as the Lord has said

Neither is the man without the woman nor the woman without the man the fullness of the priesthood requires both So that's what he had learned in that temple ordinance Now like I said it was over a year later when the when Emma was actually the first person, the first woman, to receive her temple initiatory and ordinances from Joseph, which I think seems proper as the elect lady and as the first lady and as the eternal wife of Joseph. And then she gave the initiatory to other women, Batchabas Smith and Lucy Max Smith and others. But I just, you know, we talk so much about how, I don't know if you two have this, but I remember in my granddad's office in his den,

he had a chart that was like his priesthood lineage. So he had received a priesthood from, I don't know, Harold B. Lee, who received it from, yeah, and it goes back to Peter James and John and Jesus Christ, right? Those charts. But and we don't keep these records, but how cool as women to be able to say I received my temple lineage from Emma Smith. Yeah, I it all started there. That is that is awesome. And the temple was being worked on. So was this all taking place in the Redbrick store? It was it was taking place in the Redbrick store. And also when Emma would give would initiate or provide initiatives for these other women, it would be in their home in the mansion house. So it's so interesting to me how the Lord works through, for example, baptisms for the dead happening in the Mississippi River

when that ordinance was first revealed. And then as soon as the basement of the Navu temple was completed and they put a font in there, then they said, okay, no more baptisms in the river. You got to do it in the font in the temple, but they did do that. And that's going to be the same thing with the endowment, right? Right. Yeah. So after a time, they waited until the temple was completed. I think we talked about that verse before of baptism kind of looking at being like a death and resurrection of symbolically being born again. And I was going to mention that now that you said that the font is always in the basement

of the temples. It's always fonts are always underground level to maintain that symbol of being buried and being born again. I would say it's all, it all comes out of the same idea of bringing people into the family of Christ and bringing them into the house of Israel to have part of this Abrahamic covenant with posterities, the sands of the sea and the stars in the sky. I think it all comes back to that welding link and the Malachi verses that Joseph learned from 1823. So I really think that he wanted to bring people into this large family, his family, the family of Christ and the house of Israel. Some of his early, some of the women that he married early were young orphans that lived in his home, and he wanted them to have access to that family and to make them a part of his family.

He, some of some of the women were married to men that didn't have, that weren't worthy priesthood holders. And he wanted them to have access to that priesthood. He was such a firm believer in this very progressive idea of patriarchal and matriarchal. So while he was the patriarch, Emma was the matriarch, and they couldn't be separated. It was men and women like Nulke Whitney said in the Nover Relief Society. They all needed to be a part of this. And I think initially he saw this as a way to bring these people together into one family. In fact, he does that with the Whitney's and the Kimbles when he is sealed to their daughters, he's connecting their

families and bringing their families together. You know, and something else I think is interesting, just a couple of things that I would say about polygamy. First of all, we don't even know what language Joseph used. The only thing written is section 132. And that literally was intended to be a very private revelation for him and for Emma. It wasn't included in the doctrine of covenants until 1876 when Orson Pratt included it. And it wasn't read aloud to anybody until 1852 when Brigham Young asked him to read it aloud. So Joseph's polygamy and Brigham's polygamy were very different. Joseph, during Joseph's time in Avaue, it was very private and sacred and confidential, and they didn't talk about it.

Which maybe one reason why Emma told her sons at the end of her life that Joseph never practiced polygamy because she was being true to that covenant that she wouldn't speak of it. But then it became very public and it raised a lot of attention and just the practice and the living of it was very different with Brigham Young. We know that Joseph didn't have children, any babies with any of his plural wives, and Emma was pregnant when he died.

So Brigham Young and Utah was very different. Yeah, and I think you're giving us this healthy way to enter this topic, topic that many people just avoid. And we don't want to avoid it. It was like you said, it was happening in Navu and it was part of this idea of the family, the welding link of the family. Yeah.

Absolutely. Also, I would highly recommend a book by Brittany Chapman Nash that just came out from Desert book. It's, let's talk about polygamy is what it's called. And it's just a little, little book and it's so well explained and so well written and you could sit down and read it in one sitting. Okay. This is wonderful. We're giving our listeners a way to come at this in a very healthy faith-promoting way and come away with even a stronger testimony of Joseph and his work and how difficult for that marriage.

I have to say this about Emma though. John, I'm sure you finished the book, but there's so many people, including Brigitte Young, that have not sought very highly of Emma. But I believe that her story is a story of redemption. And I think it's a beautiful story. We know that in 1830, in what we now know, as section 25, She is promised an inheritance, a crown of righteousness, and a she can enter in the presence of the Lord. She has to do some certain things. She has to lay aside the things of this world and murmur not at what she has not seen, and she has to go with

Joseph at the time of his going. I also think that's why she stayed in Avu. She was staying with Joseph at the time of his staying. But she did have trouble with Brigham Young. He spoke very poorly of her. She spoke not well of him. And at the end of her life, And at the end of her life, she had a dream where Joseph came to her and took her to a beautiful mansion. Now remember how many times they had to relocate and cross frozen rivers and live with other people. She lived with Sarah Cleveland. She lived with Elizabeth Ann Whitney, both of whom were her counselors in the Navi Relief Society. And yet she welcomed, once she had a home, she welcomed so many people into that home. But Joseph took her to this mansion in her dream. And they went into a nursery.

And in the nursery was her baby Don Carlos that had died when she was when he was 14 months old. And she picked him up and held him. And she said, Joseph, where are the others? And he said, you will have them, everyone. And then she turned around and she saw Jesus Christ. Which in my mind says that she has cleaved under her covenants and that she has been true

and that she in fact has received an inheritance and has been redeemed. And I am so grateful for that. I think it for her, it happened in different ways and it can happen for us or that we can see on the outside of other people, which I think is important to recognize. But what an incredible woman. Wow. That is so well said. Thank you, Jenny. I remember being younger and hearing about Emma Smith and it's almost complete opposite of what we talk about. Yeah. And that makes me so happy.

Having read at least a little bit about her story, I can't read to. I can't wait to read your book. I knew that she had kind of been given a calling assignment to assemble the hymns, but the book really helped me see how she persisted in that and there were different editions that came out and how hard she worked to fulfill that assignment and that that was really fun to hear that she'd never let go of that calling and assignment and kept working on it even with the let go of that calling and assignment and kept working on it even with the reorganized church or community of Christ, or she just kept going to do that with the hymns.

And hymns are important to me. And so I loved that aspect of it. I hope people will read this, get better acquainted with Emma. Well, and I love the fact that she had such an influence on our legacy of worship through hymns. And she's told in section 25 to expound the scriptures and exhort the church. And she does that through the hymns. She's preaching doctrine of the gospel as well as encouraging and cheering through the hymns. And I love that because we have the hymns, it can be a congregational experience

where we come together as a community of saints, but it's also a very individual experience. Where when we are in times of great need, we can call upon the hymns and worship God. And he says he will answer it immediately with a prayer upon our heads. And I'm so grateful that she opened that up for us. Dr. Reader, Jenny, you've been studying the history of the church for two decades now. And you don't look it, but you've been studying and you've been through a series of difficulties that most, most humans just haven't had to face. So here you are in this unique position as a very well-educated and yet someone who has seen dark days. And yet it's inspiring that here you are.

You choose faith. You believe in the restoration. So I think our listeners would love to hear your thoughts on that journey and why you love the restoration. That's such a great question, and I'm really glad that you're asking it. I came to know the women of the Navajo Relief Society when I was working as a research assistant for Gilder and Carol Madsen who were publishing the Navajo release Society minutes eventually as first 50 years of release of society. But their

words whispered to me from those pages and I could feel them and hear them. And I knew that I have been called to do this work. So I knew that I had to get a PhD and that I had to receive the proper credentials urn, let's say urn, the proper credentials. And it's been so weird to me that so many things have come up and sort of tried to stop me or have stopped me for a time like leukemia, four times, and two bone marrow transplants. But I know that I have a mission to perform. And I received a priesthood blessing before my first transplant, saying that my life would not be cut short until I had fulfilled my mission. And I, that first transplant was awful, like the worst. I mean, I got new marrow for my brother Ben and he's the best. And then it started attacking me again a couple of years later and I did not want to do another transplant because I knew how awful

they were. And there was like a 4% chance of success. But after talking to one of my doctors, I realized that I had a mission to perform and that I had to do everything that I could to keep my body alive to do that. And so I did it and it got marrow from my second brother. And that in and of itself, that second transplant where I received his blood happened on Good Friday in April of 2017. And it's such, it made, it made the idea of Christ and his blood so much more real and giving me life. So much more real and giving me life So that that's been a powerful testimony to me on the other hand I realized to this power of welding and sealing I was very close to my granddad And he passed away while I was in the middle of my PhD program

But I can't tell you how many times I felt him with me Just sitting with me in an empty hospital room late at night. But not only him, it's also my ladies. They've been with me. Eliza and Emma and Jane and so many others. They've been with me and I feel that. And I think, you know, I, I to go through these periods where I have doubts and questions and I don't get polygamy all the time. And so I've tried to make it palatable for myself or other things, you know, where I get frustrated working in a bureaucracy at work where there's always,

you know, there's always politics in every institution And I actually I appreciate it because I know that none of us are perfect that we're all imperfect mortals We're in a mortal world. I think my DNA Isn't wasn't great honestly and because I agreed to come to this earth, that I agreed to have an imperfect body and other people do too, but I'm so grateful for the fact of imperfection. And that's in fact what brings me greater faith to know that it is only through Jesus Christ that we can be healed and that He does pay the price and that there is compensation for

all the things that are lost, for all the hairs on my head that were lost, that there will be compensation for that. I believe in the Abrahamic covenant with all of my heart. I'm not married, and I want to be, but treatments have caused me not to be able to have kids. And that breaks my heart, too, but I have learned how to expand my definitions and be a mother to my incredible nieces and nephews and to the work that I do that I am filling the measure of my creation. You know, and it's not easy,

but nothing, it wasn't easy for anybody. And that's why I stay because it wasn't easy for anybody. Everybody has to go through all of that. And I see that side of their lives, and I'm grateful for that. Thank you so all of that. And I see that side of their lives. And I'm grateful for that. Thank you so much for that. That was, that hit me really hard. John, we've been blessed today. Absolutely. I feel like everything you just shared will add an exclamation point to the whole to the whole thing. And it will be like you sitting with those who are also suffering because there's so many that are, you know, so thank you so much.

Oh, yeah, to me that mourn with those that mourn comfort those that stand need of comfort. It just comes to that in my stare and put your arm around me and fight with me. Great story. Wow, wow, wow, we want to thank Dr. Jenny Reader for being here today. I'm sure all of you listening are feeling the same way John and I are. Just grateful. It was good for us to be here. Thank you to all of you who are listened and we can't do this without you. We wouldn't have a podcast without our listeners. Thank you to our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson, and to our production crew. We have David Perry, Lisa Spice, Kyle Nelson, Will Stoten, and Jamie Nelson. And we love you. And we hope all of you will join us on our next episode of Follow Him. you