Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 125-128 Part 2 • Dr. Jordan Watkins • November 3-9 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: October 29, 2025

Dr. Jordan Watkins examines how Joseph’s revelations on baptism for the dead and record-keeping intertwined law, theology, and personal struggle, revealing how sacred records can bind communities, heal relationships, and link the living with the dead.***Content warning: This episode discusses suicide. If you're in crisis, please reach out to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988 or a local helpline. Listener discretion is advised.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTS English: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC245EN French: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC245FR German: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC245DE Portuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC245PT Spanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC245ESYOUTUBE: https://youtu.be/kAtX41UogZYALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIM.co2021 Episode Doctrine & Covenants 125 Part 2https://youtu.be/1F-z5MTDRRgFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookBook of Mormon: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastBMBook  WEEKLY NEWSLETTER https://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletter  SOCIAL MEDIA Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcast Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE:00:00 Part 2 - Dr. Jordan Watkins02:11 Reasons for record-keeping04:07 Legal context06:14 What keeps Joseph busy?11:02 Henry Sherwood - Local constable13:13 Significance of keeping records17:54 Prophets’ expanding souls20:22 Joseph emphasizes multiple records23:20 Connection between baptism for the dead and writ of habeas corpus24:47 Schindler’s List parallels28:19 Are there records in Heaven?29:09 Nautical and Resurrection symbolism32:14 Saviors on Mount Zion36:09 Joseph revising and expanding scripture38:00 Dr. Watkins’s personal story of his uncle Scott41:28 Teaching from beyond the grave44:18 Why we need the dead47:17 If they had “had the chance”50:38 The call for the dead54:03 Join our voices with the prophets56:32  A new record of baptisms for the dead59:54 What about those who lived before records?1:04:58 The value of records of all types1:07:13 Record of Micah1:10:26 Our attitude toward difficult people1:12:54 Dr. Watkins’ testimony of the Restoration and Jesus Christ1:19:25 End of Part 2 - Dr. Jordan WatkinsThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsAmelia Kabwika: Portuguese TranscriptsHeather Barlow: Communications DirectorSydney Smith: Social Media, Graphic Design "Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

This episode discusses suicide. If you're in crisis, please reach out to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline or a local helpline. Listener discretion is advised. You are listening to Part 2 with Dr. Jordan Watkins, Doctrine and Covenants 125 to 128. And we talk about temple work, we don't usually focus on records of temple work. That's what 127 and 128. are all about records of baptisms for the dead. The sections of the doctrine covenants that talk about work for the dead are these sections,

and the focus is on records. We'll get to why it's interesting. So in verse 6, the Lord instructed the saints, when any of you are baptized for your dead, let there be a recorder. And let them be an eyewitness of your baptisms. Let him hear with his ears that he may testify of a truth, say it the Lord, that in all your recordings it may be recorded in heaven. Now we'll come back to that second part in a little bit.

This instruction relates to the first command the Lord gives the church. April 6th, 1830, Joseph gets a revelation, and the Lord says, there shall be a record kept. At various points, the Lord gives further commands to keep records. Joseph and the Saints made efforts to fulfill those commands with mixed results. Sometimes they're great, sometimes they weren't great. The saints kept various kinds of records, and the purpose of record keeping in the church shifted in relationship to distinct circumstances. Sometimes, the attempt to keep records and to compile information was an effort to secure human and divine justice. We mentioned Liberty Jell, his second letter from prison, much of which is contained in Section 123.

What's the emphasis? Gather up all facts related to the Saints' losses in Missouri. He describes this as an imperative duty. We owe this to God, angels, people who have died. The saints are going to present these records to the government, and they're going to hope that the government provides them a address, renumeration. But the Lord had also told them.

He commanded them. You keep a record. You present it to the heads of government. And then I'll come out of my hiding place to bring divine justice. One of the reason to keep records is because people are out there hurting other people, including us, we need to keep a record of it. 123, verse 13 through 15, he says, we should waste and wear out our lives

and bringing to light all hidden things of darkness wherein we know them, and they are truly manifest from heaven. I love that caveat, wherein we know them, and they are truly manifest from heaven. You've got to be careful in keeping records of these things. These should then be attended to with great earnestness. Let no man count them as small things. there is much which lieth in for purity pertaining to the saints which depends upon these things.

I don't know exactly what he had in mind there. Just a few years later, in more letters, he writes to the saints from in hiding, Joseph is insisting on the importance of keeping records of proxy baptisms, a very different kind of record. Joseph's Liberty Jail experience, it inspired him to broaden his vision. I would say this way, from a focus, on securing justice for the saints. We've been wronged. We need justice. I think that's an understandable desire. But then it shifts. It broadens to an emphasis on finding revealed answers

to aid in the salvation of the living and the dead. Now, we'll say more about the function and power of these records. I'll just note broadly that in early America, there is a record-keeping culture. That record-keeping culture had very religious roots. Think, for example, family Bibles. Families had Bibles and what did they record in those Bibles? They tended to record important dates. Family history, dates of births, dates of baptisms, dates of marriages and deaths. Some of the saints would have participated in those same kind of practices. They're already coming from a culture that sees some value, some sacredness to keeping records of important events. Now, I'm going to shift from there to a legal context.

We're actually going to do some legal stuff today. American legal culture contributes to a focus on record keeping. I mentioned that in September of 1842, when Joseph writes these two letters, in September of 1842, he mentions the context. In the final verses of Section 127, Joseph refers to the fact that he's being pursued by his enemies. while he wants to preach to them about baptism for the dead he'll have to settle with sending forth his thoughts on the subject he can't be with them he's in hiding the written word in other words

will have to stand in for the spoken word another sort of instance of proxy in the opening of the next letter so section 128 written from the home of Edward hunter he's hiding in the homes of members he writes I now resume the subject of the baptism for the dead as that subject seems to occupy my mind and press itself upon my feelings the strongest since I have been pursued by my enemies. Now, why would that be?

Is that a coincidence? I'd suggest that his isolation, Joseph is a social person. He glories in the idea that the same sociality that exists here will exist there. he likes to be around people. He doesn't like to be isolated and in hiding. Now he's facing a threat of separation.

I'll get to more of that in a second. And even death. I think that opens him up to inspiration about how to restore relationships, how to restore sociality. What are the divine practices and teachings that can, if life is so fragile here, and if my relationships are so fragile, and if at any moment I can be separated,

from my family and friends, how can I make sure that doesn't happen in the next life? Now, the most immediate threat had emerged in the summer of 1842, so a couple of months before. Think of Joseph Smith in this period. He is incredibly busy. You know some of the events that happened in 1842.

March organizes the Female Relief Society. May introduces the endowment. During this time, he is church president. He is trustee and trust for the church. He is editor of the Times and Seasons, the newspaper in Navu. He is Lieutenant General of the Navu Legion. He is also mayor of Navu and the presiding officer of the mayor's court. He became the mayor in May.

Why did he become the mayor in May? That's when John C. Bennett was excommunicated. That's another story. Within days of becoming mayor, rumors began to spread that Joseph had been involved in the attempted assassination of former Missouri governor Lilburn Boggs. That same Lilburn Boggs who had signed the extermination order. Some asserted that Joseph had sent, who's he going to send? Porter. Orrin, Porter Rockwell, to assassinate Boggs. Now, there's really no evidence that this was the case. There is a little bit of circumstantial

evidence in the fact that Rockwell was actually in the area around the time of Boggs's attempted assassination. But famously, right, he later says, if it had been me, he wouldn't have survived. So we don't really have any evidence that it was Joseph or that Joseph had sent Rockwell. In some ways, that doesn't really matter. Rumors are going around that Joseph had tried to have Lilburn Boggs assassinated. So what happens? He begins to worry. Joseph begins to worry about another mob attack and another extradition attempt. We talked about one extradition attempt that came at the time that he introduced baptism for the dead. This is a couple years later,

and now another extradition attempt is emerging. He actually thought Bennett was conspiring with the Missourians to send him back to Missouri. Bennett actually indicates he was ready to help in that kind of effort. What do they do in Navu? In early July of 1842, the Navu City Council passes an ordinance, a law. That's interesting to think about.

Ordinance we use in a particular kind of way, but ordinances are also used to refer to laws. They pass an ordinance granting Navu citizens the right to habeas corpus through the city court. Okay, now I know we're getting into some legal jargon here, but we can explain this. This right, the right to habeas corpus, allows a detained individual. If I get arrested, I have a right to petition for a writ of habeas corpus from the local justice. if that judge grants that writ of habeas corpus, that means the authorities have to take me, they have to take my body before the court to consider the legality of the arrest or detainment.

habeas corpus is Latin for you shall have the body and refers to the need to bring the body of the arrested individual before the judge. And the judge is not going to determine whether or not that person is guilty. the judge is looking at the arrest warrant. Is that warrant valid? It's going to protect me from being just hauled away by someone. That's right. If the warrant's invalid, you can go free. Joseph had tried to use this. He tried to use it, Missouri, not successful. He had successfully used it in the prior extradition attempt in June of 1841. He obtained rid of habeas corpus and Stephen A. Douglas, prominent figure in American history. He was an associate justice of the Illinois Supreme Court. He didn't. determined that the arrest warrant on that occasion was invalid. Joseph was allowed to go free. Now, a year later, Joseph is faced with a new extradition attempt. So what does the city council do?

They passed this law. Now, the right to habeas corpus already existed, the city law tightens it up or expands it. They give the city court broad powers to grant this writ. Well, within days, Loburn Boggs has signed an affidavit identifying Joseph Smith as an accessory before the fact of the attempted assassination. Current Missouri governor, Governor Thomas Reynolds, issued a requisition. You have to send a requisition

to the Illinois governor, Thomas Carlin, saying arrest Joseph Smith, send him to Missouri for trial. A couple of days later, August 2nd, Carlin signs an arrest warrant. Six days later, on the morning of August 8th, three officers arrive in Navu, and they arrest Joseph Smith and Rockwell.

Now, what is Joseph? and Rockwell do. They petition for writ of habeas corpus. They're in Navu. At about one o'clock, the Navu City Court, they meet. Orson Spencer has to act as the temporary president because Joseph Smith is the president. He's absent. So we get some proxy work here. The court issued the writ of habeas corpus. That means the officers are supposed to bring Joseph Smith and Rockwell before the court. Henry Sherwood is the local constable. He delivers the writ to the officers. The officers are like, is this okay? We're not quite sure. So what do they do? They leave Joseph and Rockwell in Sherwood's capable hands, and they go to Quincy to get more

instructions. By the way, Sherwood's a member of the church. She's local member. Smith's petition for habeas corpus had worked. We have a petition for rid of habeas corpus. We have the city council's election of Spencer in Joseph's stead, because he's absent. And then the city court grants this writ. What does that highlight? The power of authorizing an individual to act on behalf of another. It also highlights a text as power to save. I'll come back to this. What does Joseph do? Sherwood says, you're free to go. Joseph doesn't fully trust in the legal system. So he's going to use it. Shocking. It can help him. But surprisingly, not fully trust. in the legal system. He's like, I'm going to turn to my friends for help. He crosses the

Mississippi River to Zarahemla, you've mentioned, Zara Hemla, Iowa Territory. And over the next few weeks, he hides in homes of church members in and around Navu. Somewhat isolated. Ginn, he likes to be around people. So what does he do? He becomes very contemplative. On August 16th, he's hiding in the home of Edward Sayers. A week later, he's hiding in his store in Nauvue. He's with his secretary, William Clayton. And he becomes really sort of pensive. He speaks the names of family members and friends and he says, William Clayton, I want you to record their names.

The names are recorded in a book called The Book of the Law of the Lord. This book appears to have had its origins from an 1832 letter many years earlier. Joseph writes a letter to William W. Phelps. And in the letter, he says, basically, there must be a church clerk who keeps a record of all those who consecrate. We need to write their names down. Well, almost a decade later, beginning in 1841, Willard Richards, begins to record the saints' tithing donations in this book, called the Book of the Law of the Lord. What's fascinating about this book, not only does it have these tithing donations, it's Joseph's journal for the period.

So if you examine the book, you'll find several pages, journal entry, journal entry, journal entry, and then several pages of tithing donations, tithing donations, tithing donations. So it's functioning in different ways. Well, in this August 16th entry, which is, by the way, followed by almost interrupted by almost 20 pages of tithing donations, Joseph begins the entry. He's speaking to William Clayton, he's saying, it gives a blessing to a Rastus Derby. Rastus Derby was staying with Joseph. He assisted him in transporting correspondence.

Joseph blesses Derby, and then he names and blesses many other people. He called them his pure and holy friends, and he said, these are the ones that shall inherit eternal life. It's as if Joseph believed that by recording their names in the book of the law of the Lord, it would secure their salvation. Over several pages, he names those who had helped him during his current crisis. He says, they shall live also.

He returns to the subject a week later when he hides in his store in Navu. This is August 23rd. He proceeds to mention others. He got on a roll and he just kept going. He mentions his deceased father, his deceased brother, Alvin. Of Alvin, he said in particular, shall his name not be recorded in this book? Yes, Alvin, let it be had here and be handed down upon these sacred pages forever and

ever. Now the point I'm making here is that there's a connection, right, between this emphasis on writing the names of his friends and family members in a book. He sees that as having some great significance. It's within a few weeks that he's avoiding extradition, that he's writing these letters to the saints about baptism for the dead and not just about baptism for the dead, but about record keeping. He exalts record keeping as sacred, as crucial. as necessary. So, yes, I'm saying his attempts to avoid extradition and his reflection while in hiding,

they anticipate his instruction to keep records of baptism for the dead. Wow. Jordan, probably not a time to just stop you and pay you a compliment, but the way you can weave together all of this and paint a picture of Joseph Smith, because I've picked up on that too, I'm not a historian, but I picked up on the fact that he does not like to be honest.

isolated. When he does, he gets very reflective and contemplative. I think it's 1832, right, when he's helping, is it Bishop Whitney who broke his leg? He's writing to Emma saying, I'm spending a lot of time in the forest, just thinking. The way you can weave together all that's happening almost makes us feel like we're there. It was intense there for a while, and then he's hiding. What you say is so true. Thank goodness that Joseph was isolated. at times. Hard thing to say. Thank goodness he was imprisoned. As hard as that is, what comes out of his experiences in prison or in isolation are these teachings and practices that we prize so dearly. I just had never, ever considered what he's going through legally with recording things and the power

that has may be impressed upon his mind. Let's record all this stuff. This is out there, but it reminded me of Enos. You also quoted that a man filled with the love of God is not satisfied with blessing his family on. When Enos prays, he prays for himself, then he prays for his brethren, then he prays for his enemies, then he prays for the records. I've always thought how interesting. We've worked so hard on these records, preserve these records for even my enemies that it might bless them. Yeah, that's beautiful. There's something prophetic that you see, not maybe in every prophet, but in a variety

of prophets. You mentioned Enos, that led me to think of Enoch. He's the one who says, God, why are you crying? Yeah. We exalted the Zion people. We're good. God's like, I love all my children. But what does Enoch do?

Enoch's like, oh, yeah, I'm going to weep, too. a prophet, even after he'd been exalted, you'd think that maybe he'd made it. Not entirely. He needed to expand his soul more. And I think that happens for Joseph in Liberty Jail. And I think that happens for Enos. Yeah, that's beautiful. Let's keep going, Jordan.

I want to learn more. Okay. More to say on this topic. Back to the text. Beginning in verse 2. So this verse 2 of Section 128, Joseph is again addressing the topic of keeping records of baptism for the dead. He explained that because a single recorder

cannot be present at all times, the Saints must appoint a recorder for each ward in the city. He urged the recorders to be, notice this language, very particular and precise, certifying in his record that he saw with his eyes and heard with his ears the history of the whole transaction, and also instructed the recorders to name witnesses who could at any time when called upon certify the same. I just want to pause here to note that proxy work is everywhere in these letters. In the first letter, Joseph authorized his agents and clerks to transact business in his behalf. Now he's explaining that recorders can stand in for the general recorder. Given all that Joseph Smith was doing, he had to rely on others to be his

eyes, ears, hands, and feet. He also relied on records to stand in for him in various ways. Here he's writing in the place of preaching. He can't be with the saints he can't preach, so I'm going to write. Actually, he's not writing. He's dictating to William Clayton, who is writing in his behalf in place of him preaching. I'm just pointing out that there are all kinds of ways in which bodies and documents are working as proxies in these sections. Now, as I've already highlighted, there's a legal context here. Much of this language sounds legalistic, not coincidental. in his first letter Joseph had indicated that the records kept on earth

would also be kept in heaven in the second letter he expands on this idea verse 6 he quoted the book of revelation which refers to the book of life and the books out of which the dead were judged Joseph is emphasizing here multiple records

it's not one record it's multiple records his explanation is the books out of which the dead were judged were books containing the record of the works kept on earth. Records on earth would stand in for the dead in heaven demanding that those without bodies be judged according to the works done in the flesh or the works done when they had bodies.

That is a power that can rewrite history, we'll say it that way, or put differently. Somebody with a body is, baptized for someone who once had a body but now does not the record of that baptism stands in for the body of the living records of baptisms in particular have power to loose or release those in spirit prison just as a writ of habeas corpus had loosed or released him from detainment now that's a scholarly observation that's awesome it's actually a connection made at the time the day after

we're going to fast forward and then we'll come back. The day after Joseph gave his King Follett discourse, April 1844, he intended to speak the next day to the saints on the subject of baptism for the dead. He couldn't because he'd just spoken the day before for hours on the great topic of the King Follett discourse. So what does he do? He has someone else.

He has other George Adams speak on his behalf. What I presume here is that Joseph says, well, the topic is baptism for the dead. I don't know if he gave him explicit direction, but he says, if he makes a mistake, I will tell it. I'll let you know if George Adams gets off and says something wrong. George Adams gives a three-hour sermon on baptism for the dead. He tells the saints this, I want to find a writ of habeas corpus for the dead. he observed that the saints know what a habeas quirkus means wow yeah and then he goes on to say this

he relates a tale of two people he says there are two people one is imprisoned for lying swindling and deceiving another person through some embarrassment is involved in debt and is seized under the same law and is also put in the same prison the innocent man is taken from town many miles off and suffers without hope. But a friend searches the law and finds a habeas corpus,

and doing what the other man cannot do for himself, Adam says, the friend pays the money and gets the receipt in the presence of witnesses and gets it recorded and goes to the prison and loses the prisoner who falls on his bosom and thanks him for his liberty and freedom. Adams and I think Joseph they saw this clear parallel. between rits of habeas corpus and records of baptism for the dead. Go, brother Adams, whoever you are. That's awesome.

Partly what I'm suggesting here is revelation is not received or understood in vacuums. It comes in the midst of our messy lives. Revelation is powerful precisely because through it, God reaches down, condescends to meet us, down in the muck and mire of our own lived experience. We shouldn't be looking for revelation free from or outside of our contexts, but instead in light of, in relationship to our contexts, including our problems. Those are launching pads for Revelation. At least they were for Joseph. I can imagine you're arrested. You know if this person takes you away, it's probably over for you.

Here comes this paper that says, you're free. You can go. At least I can get a sense of how that might feel. Now I can get a sense for how it might feel in the next life for someone to show up and say, the work has been done for you. It's like opening up the gates of hell. On that point, that makes me think of a scene from a movie. There's a film called Schindler's List.

in the film, German industrialist Oscar Schindler he goes to great lengths to save over a thousand Jews from death in the concentration camps and in one scene he and his assistant, what do they do? They create a list.

They create a list of Schindler's Jewish employees so that they can transfer them to another factory so they won't be sent to Auschwitz. When they finish the list, this is like Schindler's William Clayton. When they finish the list, his assistant holds it up and states, this list is an absolute good. This list is life.

Now, again, context is quite different. The comparison is not exact. But Joseph is teaching something similar about records of baptism for the dead. The records themselves stand in for the dead. I'm going to say it this way. This gives the records ontological status, like they have a nature or a being. The records themselves, themselves are life.

John Durham Peters scholar has written about Section 128, and he put it this way. Smith's materialism went so deep as to find eternity in a ledger. These records are powerful. That's the boldness of this doctrine. Joseph knows this is, I'm going to use the term radical teaching. Verse 5. He acknowledges some might think he's going overboard. You may think this order of things to be very particular. And what is he say in verse 9? It may seem to some to be a very bold doctrine. But right, he's insisting this is aligned with the order of heaven. The specific ordinance he speaks of and the power of the priesthood, including the power to bind on earth and in heaven, He says, it's always existed. It's been present in other dispensations.

That teaching sounds familiar to Latter-day Saints. Power to bind on earth as it is in heaven. What doesn't sound as familiar, or at least we don't think about it as much, is record-keeping is the power to bind. At least that's how he's describing it here. That's not how we normally think of this power. We think about it in a different way.

Verse 9, In all ages of the world, whenever the Lord has given a dispensation of the priesthood to any man by actual revelation or any set of men, this power has always been given. Hence, whatsoever those men did in authority, in the name of the Lord, and did it truly and faithfully, and then this part, and kept a proper and faithful record of the same, it became a law on earth and in heaven. record keeping here at least in these sections is another function or in some ways we might even say the function of priesthood if God grants us the power to perform acts that assist others on the path to salvation

why should it seem strange that keeping records is one of those acts he found what did you say eternity in a ledger in a ledger John Durham Peter's great phase Smith's materialum was so deep as to find eternity in a ledger. What would it mean when we talk about what you bind on earth would be bound in heaven? I've always wondered if somebody's writing it down here, is somebody writing it down up there, like, at the same time? That's a great question, and I do not know.

Because that's what I've always imagined, but they're waiting for us. But if we're writing it down, there's somebody mirroring you. that's why it is a bold teaching and if only we had some really secure maybe we could hollow out a mountain made out of granite to store those records in or something i don't know there's an idea the phrase you read in verse five you may think this order of things to be very particular rings of alma to heliman you may suppose this is foolishness in me but this is how god does things yeah that relates back to what he had said in the Liberty Jell letter in 123. He says, this is a small thing. But what is the metaphor he gives there? I think it's a ship. You just need to turn it a little bit, and it has a great impact. Yeah. He says a very large ship is benefited very much by a very small helm. In the time of a storm. One of my favorite verses, yeah. Jordan, this has been spectacular.

Is there more to come? There's more. There's more. Let's go. Okay. Let's go. Let's go. go. You continue to get surprises in Joseph's discussion of baptism for the dead. So verse 12, the ordinance of baptism was instituted to form a relationship with the ordinance of baptism for the dead, being in likeness of the dead. Okay, we're familiar with the idea that baptism bears a symbolic relationship to death and resurrection. But what is Joseph at least really strongly implying here that God first instituted baptism for the dead and then instituted baptism in relationship to baptism for the dead. We don't usually think about it that way. We think, well, it's baptism and we need to make a plan for those who aren't going to get it. Jenny Webb has

written about this and she says, well, that can seem a little backward until you consider the fact that the vast majority of God's children would not have the chance to be baptized during their lives. Joseph's revelations tell us that the plan of salvation was not just about or even primarily about offering the living salvation, but also and perhaps especially about offering the dead salvation. We're focused on ourselves because we're alive and we have access to the gospel. God is no respect to persons, loves all his children, he makes ample provision for the redemption of the dead and the living. The teaching actually seems quite reasonable when think about it that way.

Death is actually part of symbolically the ordinance itself. It points to those who die. It does. But the teaching it's reasonable. It's consistent, but it remains bold. It does.

As are the records on earth in relation to your dead, which are truly made out, so are also the records in heaven. This, therefore, is the sealing and binding power. And in one sense of the world, the keys of the kingdom, which consists of the key of knowledge. In one sense, at least, the sealing power and the keys of the kingdom is record keeping of work for the dead. Now, yeah, we might be prone to say, wait a minute, can't place someone's chance at exaltation

in the hands of imperfect humans and their imperfect records. But Joseph is proposing that God has done just that, that divinity depends on mortality, that eternity, that eternity depends, depends on time. And this teaching is emblematic of other distinct Latter-de-Saint teaching. Embodiment, which was emphasized in materiality, I would add to that the idea of becoming like God. The teaching that we can act as saviors on Mount Zion by using our bodies to be baptized for the dead and to make records of those baptisms. That encapsulates those really distinctive teachings. Now, one of the contexts that we haven't talked about that is absolutely crucial is what we get to in the subsequent verses. Verse 15, Joseph continued to teach that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over as pertaining to our salvation.

He proceeded to quote other passages of scripture, including, no surprise, 1 Corinthians 1529, but also Malachi 4, 5, and 6. What does he say of Malika? He had his eye fixed on the restoration of the priesthood, the glories to be revealed in the last days, and in a special manner, this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel, namely the baptism for the dead. Joseph Smith could be hyperbolic.

He said similar things about other teachings at other times, but what a thing to say. about baptism for the death. And then what does he do? He quotes Malachi as it appears in the King James Version. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord, and he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. And what does Joseph go on to say? I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purposes as it stands. This is really interesting because these verses appear without any change in

3rd Nephi 25. They appear without any change when Joseph revised the Bible. He didn't change it. Simply noted, Malachi correct. Now, why is that interesting to us? Even when Elijah appears in the House of the Lord in 1836, language is similar to the KJB. When Moroni comes, now this is Joseph's history written in the late 1830s, recollecting Maronai's appearance in 1823. He says, Maroni quoted the fifth verse of Malachi thus, Behold, I will reveal unto you the priested by the hand of Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. The next verse different as well, and he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers, if it were not so, the whole earth would be

utterly wasted it is coming. The revised passage makes Elijah more active, indicating that he would reveal the priesthood, that he would plant the promises made to the fathers in the hearts of the children. That's what will turn the hearts of the children to the fathers and save the earth from destruction. That revision also places emphasis on the children doing the turning, not the fathers. Perhaps suggesting the fathers already turned their hearts to us. And now we have to respond. The promise of Elijah's return appears to provide a solution to the problem of separation that we mentioned out the outset. And it suggests that we can assist in addressing separation between God and his children and between God's children and earth by turning to our fathers.

By 1842, Joseph has understood this to mean performing baptisms for the dead and recording those baptisms. verse 18 of 128. Abdistance for the dead are the welding link between the fathers and the children. Still placing emphasis on the children, but I think he also wants to remind the saints that the children depend upon the mothers and fathers. Verse 15. Joseph provides an interesting expansion of a verse from Hebrews, Hebrews 1140. God having provided some better thing for us

that they without us should not be made perfect following Moronai's pattern and quoting and revising passages of Scripture what if Joseph say? He revises it this way. They without us cannot be made perfect. Neither can we without our dead be made perfect. From our sort of myopic and maybe sometimes syllabistic view of the world, it makes sense that the dead need us. Just like it makes sense that the living who don't have the gospel, they need us.

But Joseph is saying, well, we need them too. Bit surprising. How do we need them? I'll suggest a couple of ways. Again, it's obvious to us why they need us. We have bodies. We can perform the proxy baptism and other ordinances. We need them in several ways. I would suggest this. We need them in the sense that doing work for them teaches us grace, charity, mercy, selflessness. We need this work to help us. learn to be more like Christ. We need this work to become who God wants us to be, perhaps just as much

as the dead need access to the ordinance as to become who God wants them to be. But there are other ways we need them. They once had bodies. In those bodies, they had experiences, including experiences with the divine. The Book of Mormon teaches us that these records, the records of past people, have power to enlarge our memory. Maroni says, we want you to see these records to learn to be more wise than we have been. We can learn from them.

Not only prophets, certainly them, but all people. I would expand this to all of history. The stories of the people who have come before, their successes and failures, they have something essential to teach us. We need their experiences, records of their experiences,

to help us understand more about God, more about how God works with his children. I would add that I think that's the same with our contemporaries, regardless of their belief system, they have truth. They can teach us. Perhaps they can do things for us that we cannot do for ourselves. Joseph's instructions here are a reminder that while others may need us, we also need them. And of course, we all need God. So again, a divine interdependence. When I was young, most members of my extended family, we all lived in Utah. I saw them very very, often. One of my mom's sisters and her family, they lived at a great distance, the great distance of Idaho. I saw her and her husband and their kids less frequently than I saw my other cousins and aunts and uncles. Didn't know much about them, but what I did know, I could feel a little disapproving. I knew they didn't attend church. I knew their lives looked a little different than mine looked.

Based on that information, what did I do as a young kid? I filled in the gaps. I made the differences exaggerated. That was especially true for how I thought about my uncle Scott. He always seemed to me a bit gruff, a little bit unapproachable. On the rare occasions that I did see him, he had this thick beard, a bit of a gruff voice, and that seemed to confirm my notions about him. Well, when I was 16, my mom's father passed away.

I learned about his death after I'd returned from a trip to California. I was devastated. This is kind of my first experience with real loss. On the day of the viewing, we walk into the funeral home. I walk into the doors, and who's the first person I see? My uncle Scott. I'm in a pretty vulnerable moment. He was not who I wanted to see.

we lock eyes and I sort of this gravitational pull it's like what can I do but walk to the person standing there so I do I walk to him and he just embraces me I don't know how long we hugged he held me long enough for my all that misplaced trust false assumptions to be replaced by love

this act this embrace turned my heart to him in the years that followed we became close We had a friendship that blossomed. We regularly corresponded while I served the mission. After my mission, he was interested in history. So we went to church history sites together. A heart attack actually cut short his life a little over a year after that trip. I went to his home for his funeral, and I saw on his desk on his reading table, Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling. I gifted him that book. He apparently just read. recently finished it. I remember my aunt told me that he loved me. I already knew that by now.

That hug in the funeral home tied us together. And that experience is still teaching me from beyond the grave. Uncle Scott's still teaching me to check my assumptions, to seek to learn from others, to recognize that I need others, even people that I might not think that I need. That is a beautiful story. And it illustrates the point. Elder Renlan told the story about two brothers, if you both remember this, this was April of 2018. The link is actually in the Come Follow Me Manual for this week. The talk is called Family History and Temple Work, sealing and healing. He talks about Parley and Orson Pratt, brothers, early converts, ordained apostles, both sacrificed and contributed greatly to the cause. During the Navuera,

he says, in 1846, there was a heated public confrontation between the two of them, A deep and prolonged rift developed. Parley initially wrote to Orson to resolve the rift, but Orson did not reply. Party gave up, feeling that correspondence was over forever, unless initiated by Orson. Several years later, so it's now 1853, Orson learned about a project to publish a book on the descendants of William Pratt, the brother's earliest American ancestor. He glimpsed this treasure trove of family history, he wept like a child, his heart melted, and he determined to repair the breach with his brother.

Orson wrote to Parley, Now, my dear brother, there are none among all the descendants of our ancestor who have so deep an interest in searching out his descendants as ourselves. We know that the God of our fathers has a hand in all this. I will beg pardon for having been so backward in writing, to you. I hope you will forgive me. It was their love for their ancestors that was the catalyst to heal the rift, mend a hurt and seek and to extend forgiveness. Then Elder Renlan says this. When God directs us to do one thing, he often has many purposes in mind. Family history and temple work is not

just for the dead, but blesses the living as well. A beautiful story there as well, like Jordans and his uncles. Yeah, brothers fighting. That never happens, even in the scriptures. Let's go way back to Adam. Yeah. They're apostles. Yeah, and they're brothers. As we talked about ritz of habeas corpus and words, I think the whole idea of being governed, not by people and their whims, but by a constitution and having to test things. Is that constitutional? Does that conform with the words? Wow, this is amazing that this has worked for this long, that we're being governed by words. And they're really impressive words, but we're being governed by a document. And people coming in and out of power, it's all supposed to work according to these words. It's just fascinating. And Jordan,

that's right up your wheelhouse. Yeah, that's a good connection to this topic. The early Latter-day Saints, I guess those that live in the United States, reside in a nation, were texts, certain kinds of texts are paramount, and those texts have deep meaning. Now, for the Latter-day Saints, their concern during this period was, you're not upholding the text. You're not protecting our constitutional rights, but they knew the value of a record like that, which is precisely why they're crafting their own laws. It's why they come up with a Navu Charter. Now, their contemporaries think they go too far. They're trying to protect themselves, and they know of the value of texts in doing that.

So that's a great context to bring up. I'll mention one other obvious way in which we need the dead. Joseph actually refers to it. So this is verse 18. He provides this more expansive gloss on the passage in Hebrews 11. He says, for we without them cannot be made perfect. Neither can they without us be made perfect. And then he says this,

neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also. All of us, I hear I'm saying, the living and the dead, need those who have died in the gospel. How do we need them? We need their records, as I've suggested, to teach us. We also need them to complete the link backward in time, this welding link. And we need some of their body to return to this dispensation, to usher in. in the fullness of times, to make what Joseph describes as a whole and complete and perfect union and welding together of dispensations and keys and power and glories. Joseph couldn't do that

alone. He needed them to return and restore. He goes into that list next, doesn't he? He goes into the list. Now, one thing I'll say here is we again, I made this suggestion in talking about the Protestant Reformation and Catholicism, we are in some ways a sacramental faith. One of the things that sacraments or rituals do, things that we do, we take the sacrament every week. Those things are inherently, or at least it could be argued, those things are inherently about community. We participate in them together. As we do so, we make community with fellow participants. We also make community with those who have participated in the same or similar kinds of rituals in the past.

They did these things anciently or something like this, or they did this or something like this in the early days of the restoration. We are part of that community by participating in the same kind of ritual. Then, when we offer those ordinances to the dead, what are we doing? We're expanding that community to include those who would have participated if they had had the chance. This is very much about community. Joseph Smith was so fixed on the idea of Zion, and this is part of the process of Zion building. We mentioned that list that he goes into, speaking of community, records and books play a central role in creating community. What's remarkable is the Book of Mormon essentially creates a community.

Of all the sacred texts, it's an exception to the rule that texts get canonized over time. It's canon before it's even printed. It's accepted by a community of believers before it's even printed. Records and books play a role in creating community. From the beginning of our discussion today, we've seen books and bodies in close proximity. That tandem, books and bodies, shows up in spades in Section 128. Joseph has emphasized the importance of keeping records. He's done so by referring to and revising biblical passages.

Now as we get to verses 19 through 21, Joseph names some of those who died in the gospel. One among them has returned with a message about a book. Others of them have returned with powers and keys, including the very powers and keys that allow for proxy work. As I've mentioned, Joseph's Revelation's prize, I'm going to use that word again, embodiment. So it's no surprise that the senses show up a lot in the restoration.

We find a lot of emphasis on sight, vision. A friend of mine, Mason Allen, has recently written a book on vision as one of the themes in the doctrine covenants. Joseph increasingly emphasized touch He once taught No one can know God until he has handled something It's an interesting thing to say

What is the reigning sense in these verses Notice how are all these passages are Sound What do we hear? Moroni An angel from heaven declaring the book to be revealed a voice of the Lord in the wilderness declaring three witnesses

to bear record of the book voices of the dead or once dead are making way for voices from the dust to speak in connection with the book of Mormon the voice of Michael, the voice of Peter, James and John, the voice of God, the voice of Michael, the voice of Gabriel

and of Raphael, whoever that is, and of diverse angels, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood. I've cited John Durham Peters in this conversation. He hears in these passages a sonic time lapse, is what he says. In quick succession, Joseph names some of the fathers who have come to speak and plant the promises in our hearts. So we'll turn to them and their contemporaries and, of course, to our contemporaries as well.

I think the invitation is to listen to those voices. The call is for the dead. Here's the passage in 128, the dead to speak forth anthems of eternal praise. We want to add our voices to theirs. That's exactly what Joseph does in the verses that follow. Now, we don't often talk this way about these passages or maybe about scripture in general.

From one vantage point, there's some seriously consequential time travel going, on here. Each of these figures named lived in a specific time and place. When Latter-day Saints talk about angels of people appearing, it's not just like some random person

except for I don't know who Raphael is, but they're people from the past. They come from a specific time and place. They appear to Joseph in his specific times and places. Notice just how specific he is, including from Camorra, in the wilderness, of Fayette Seneca County, on the bakes of the

Susquehanna, in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna County, and Colesville-Broom County on the Susquehanna River, the chamber of old Father Whitmer in Fayette, Seneca County, and at sundry times and in diverse places. What do you have here? You have historical figures traversing time and space to arrive in these particular places to deliver information and power meant to save us, meant to save our dead, meant to really save those yet to be born. Now, they live in this world that is threatened by dust storms.

It's also a world of, I'm going to say, post-truth claims. People say they never made it to the moon, those sorts of things. Cooper, the father, he teaches his daughter, Murph, he teaches her these facts. What he also does is he says, you need to record your observations in records. here's where it gets tricky. They discover a secret facility and they meet scientists and these scientists have discovered a wormhole.

What are they using the wormhole for? Well, astronauts are exploring other planets for human settlement because the Earth is becoming uninhabitable. It's dying. So what does Cooper do? Well, he's a former NASA pilot. Well, he makes the difficult decision to leave his son and daughter

and to pilot a spacecraft in hopes of finding a planet to save humanity. Essentially, he's agreed to leave his own time in place for the benefit of the world. Cooper and his crew, we see that they experience time more slowly. No, I don't understand how all of this works, but theory of relativity, time dilation, all that stuff. They experience time more slowly. And when things don't go as planned, Cooper appears to be doomed to spend the rest of his very prolonged days somewhere in space. But, though at great spatial and temporal distance, what does he do? He finds a way to reach his daughter, birth.

He contacts her through a bookshelf in her bedroom, no less, with a message that will save the world. And as she turns her heart to him, so to speak, she grasps the message and saves the world from destruction. Something like that is what Joseph and the line of prophets who came to him have done for us. Now they're asking us to continue the work, to join our voices to theirs, to use our bodies as they have in the service of others, and to consecrate ourselves to the gospel.

In these final verses, we hear Joseph, at his most exuberant. In fact, he can't help but frame this as like a battle or maybe a competition of sorts, courage, brethren, and on, on to the victory. He's so animated that he called upon both animate and inanimate objects to sing praises. Again, I'm not sure what would have happened to the earth

if Elijah had not returned, but Joseph suggests that the earth should be happy that he did. He urges it to join the course. let the earth break forth into singing. Let the mountains shout for joy. And all the valleys cry aloud. And all ye seas and dry lands tell the wonders of your eternal king. And ye rivers and brooks and reels flow down with gladness.

There's that voice of gladness. Hear a river, John. Let the woods and all the trees of the field praise the Lord. And ye solid rocks, ye solid rocks, weep for joy. and let the sun, moon, and the morning stars sing together, and let the eternal creations declare his name forever and ever. I think the focus on the earth there should remind us that we are stewards of the earth. One way that we can work to ensure that our children and descendants turn to us is to care for it,

so they can continue to work for salvation. That's such a beautiful moment where Joseph Wynne, He wants the earth to shout the Lord's praises. I wrote in my margin, Isaac Watt, let heaven and nature sing. Jordan, you would know this much more than I would. Don't you get a little of Joseph's personality when he is excited about the gospel? Yeah. Granted, he's not in Liberty Jell here.

That is a particularly dark place to be writing from. He writes some marvelous things from Liberty Jail. He's writing from in hiding. He is ecstatic. static. You absolutely get some of his personality shining through. Yeah. All the exclamation points. There's a sense here that as you read through some of this, you could think this is where I'm suggesting, is Joseph lost his focus? Like, is he getting a little off? But he's not. He

brings it all back, not just to baptism for the dead, but to record keeping. Verse 24. He cites Malachi 3, another passage of scripture that Maroni had quoted. in 1823, he quotes the statement about the sons of Levi being purged that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Then he goes on to say, well, here's the kind of offering that we can make. Let us, therefore, as a church and a people and as latter-day saints, offer under the Lord an offering in righteousness. Let us present in His Holy Temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead. The work to keep a book worthy of all acceptation started almost immediately.

Joseph's letter is read to the saints a few days later. He's not there, but it's read to them on September 11th. That evening, James Sloan begins keeping a new record of baptisms for the dead. They take seriously the instruction given from the Lord. So that very day, they start a new record. The records were more complete. They were more detailed than the earlier records that they had kept. The recorders actually would start to use a form to record baptisms.

We actually have some language from one of those forms. It read in part, I certify that upon the day of the date hereof, I saw and heard the following baptisms take place in the font in the Lord's House in the city of Navu, Illinois. Think about the specificity that is there that Joseph Smith asked them to include. In Section 128, verse 21, Joseph indicated this in the letter. Teachings about baptism for the dead came line upon line, precept upon precept.

It's right in there. And there would be many other changes regarding work for the dead after Joseph's death. But during his life, he continued to teach on the subject. He says he would in verse 25, and he continued to teach on the subject throughout his life. He taught several sermons on baptism for the dead. He also wrote an editorial in the Times and Seasons in April of 1842. He offered a biblical explanation for the practice. He also included this line, which I think is a lovely line.

He said, the Lord, God, knows the situation of both the living and the dead. and has made ample provision for their redemption according to their several circumstances and the laws of the kingdom of God, whether in this world or in the world to come. That's a comforting teaching. I think it encompasses all that we know about work for the dead and all that we don't know about work for the dead. Our teachings on this topic are so beautiful. but there's still questions. Let's raise some of them. We don't have records for most of the people who have lived, especially most of the people who lived before 1,500 AD. We don't have those records. What happens to them? Even the records we do have. Like all records have, have deep limitations. Records are just as imperfect and as susceptible to decay as our bodies.

Not everyone. I think it's probably worth saying this, especially since I referenced Schindler's list. Not everyone is enthusiastic about baptisms for the dead. And understandably so, I'll give an example of this. During the last few decades of the 20th century, some Jewish leaders and individuals raise deep concerns and even criticisms about baptizing victims of the Holocaust, who died, of course, for being Jews. Now, the Slaughter of Saints, we want to say, oh, they have a choice, right? We emphasize agency, but we're sitting here talking about just how valid these baptisms are and just how powerful the records of the baptisms are. So given that and given the treatment of Jewish people at the hands of Christians through history, including cases of forced conversions, it makes sense that some are not comfortable with the practice. What did the church do? Well, in 1995, they created a policy to prohibit the posthumous baptism of Holocaust victims.

They've since done work with Jewish leaders to prevent such baptisms. And in 2012, when it was reported that the policy had been violated, the church issued an apology, and they reiterated the policy. We might be thinking to ourselves, well, how do I square all that we've been talking about today with that policy. I would say the whole thrust of the practice of baptisms for the dead is to assist in turning the hearts of the children to the fathers. We can make changes and we can be careful when that practice might in some cases actually inhibit that rather than assist in that effort if I could put it that way. Again, I take great comfort from Joseph's teaching that God has made ample provision for the redemption of the living and the dead. And I

would suggest that we know some of that ample provision. We don't know all of that ample provision. That's just a beautiful idea that God is not looking to send people to hell. He has made ample provision more than enough room to save anyone who chooses. Maybe he's not explaining all of it to us right now, but he's made ample provision. Let that rest in your mind. Some of it we know, and for so many of us, what we know is so beautiful. it's worth reminding ourselves that there's much we don't know. I presume that that's going to be really beautiful, too. As far as I know, Article of Faith Nine has not been rescinded.

Many great and important things yet to come. That's right. But having said that, despite the fact that there are many things we don't know and there are questions that remain, clearly the indication is we have much work to do. There's been lots of technological developments. let's say it this way, we are all church recorders now. Every member of a recorder. But again, not perfect. We're not going to be perfect in it. The answer is not to give up. It's to work harder, kinder, smarter. This means we have to be discerning with records of the past. We have to work to correct and prevent mistakes. We have to try to keep accurate records, even as we know that our own records will need correction. I would say as a historian, I believe the care we take with records of work for the dead should inform our approach to all kinds of records.

Whether we do so intentionally or not, we are creating a paper trail for ourselves and others throughout our lives. I think we ought to do so with grace and with honesty. We have to make sure that our records, the records we promote, the records we create are of the kind that turn our. hearts to each other that promote peace, union, reunion, rather than division, discord, and separation. Think about this as an example. Amy Harris writes about this in her book. Think about some of the records we have in the past and in the present. Are records created out of, let's call them, unjust and unholy regimes and systems? All kinds of things create records. The example I'm familiar with is slavery. Slavery creates a lot of records. Some of those records, what do they tell

the story of? They tell the story of families torn apart. Now such records can be used to create new kinds of records that have the power to bind families together, which is a remarkable thing. We can acknowledge the problems with these kinds of records, even as we use them to challenge the very dehumanizing systems that created them. Again, I'm suggesting we can do that through genealogical and proxy work, but also just by learning more about the lives of the people who stand behind those kinds of records. So what does that suggest?

That suggests that we ourselves can assist in creating records that help bind people together now and in the future. This summer's been a busy summer, no summers are. But during the last few months and weeks, I've seen lots of things happen. seen a niece be baptized, I've blessed my second child, celebrated the marriage of a sister, a nephew, and a couple of former students. In fact, last night I was at a wedding reception, former students. All of those events, they generate various records and different kinds of

records, official, unofficial. Such records have the power to deepen relationships if we craft and then maintain them with care and attention. Same is true of other kinds of records. I'm going to bring up here, and we've just referenced records of suffering. And Joseph talks about records of suffering in the Liberty Jail letters. I'll mention a personal example of records of sadness. In April of 1994, a birth record was created for a newborn black girl in Texas. In that same month, records were produced for her adoption to a white family. to a white family in Utah.

This girl's life began with a series of separations through adoption and connection through adoption. A few months after her adoption, a powerful binding record was created when this girl, another adopted sister, and that family were sealed together in the Salt Lake Temple. Years later, in May 2002, records of baptism and confirmation followed.

That life produced many other kinds of brides. records. This girl created her own records, including diaries in which she described in one way or another how it was hard for her to fit in. These and other records bear witness to something wrong, that something was off. Attentive and caring parents, they did all they could do to help her. Those efforts produced records as well. Those are not the kinds of records that had the power to save. 2012, another record was created. This one was a death record that followed the 17-year-old suicide.

Now, did the end of her life, did this separation? Was that an end of records about her? Was that the final record, that death record? Of course it wasn't. In some ways, the records proliferated. In 2013, about a year after my sister, Micah passed away, other binding records emerged my mom took Micah's name to the temple

and received her initiatory and endowment on our behalf that work created more records of salvation with power to seal, weld, and bind talk about that line confirming our hope from Section 128 during the last several years I've written a little bit about Mike and my relationship to her and her death so I've added to the archive of her life and death

Now I'm not sure those are records of salvation, but I do believe they have a kind of welding or binding power of their own. In a strange way, Micah's death and her absence has turned my heart and the hearts of others who read about her to her. And I hope through that process, I also learn how to turn my heart outward to others, others who are suffering, others who are in need.

So Micah continues to teach me from Beyond the Vale. I feel like, did she need my mom? to do that work for her? Yeah. Can she also teach us something? Yeah, I think she can. I'll mention here an excellent article on the restoration by Phil Barlow. He describes the restoration as a response to a fractured and fracturing world. And he says this at one part of the article. Math is not ultimately about numbers. I'm going to have to trust him on that because I don't know much about math. Math is not ultimately about numbers, he says. It is about relations. Joseph Smith's religion, religio, meaning to bind together, was like this. Doctrons, policies, priesteds,

keys, revelations, and ordinances were ultimately in the service of restoring proper relations and order in time and eternity. I think that's exactly what second. Section 128 says, Joseph taught that performing and recording ordinances for the dead was part of the divine order. I don't know exactly how that works, but I do believe it. I also think that such work should instill within us an attitude of care toward all people, certainly toward the dead. It's worth a reminder, perhaps, that we perform ordinances for people we don't know. In many cases, perform ordinances for people who probably, if we did know them, you may not like them or wouldn't agree with them or may even think they are bad people. Now, I'm not asking us to think poorly of the

people behind the names on our ordinance card. Instead, to recognize that the work that we do is a work of grace, a work of mercy, a work that emulates Christ's sacrifice. I think such attitudes ought to open us up to people who live in our own time and place, including those we do and don't agree with. Those who we might be prone to think are either good or bad. Perhaps especially we ought to consider how we can help those who may lack the capacity, comfort, safety, and freedom to do what we do. If we are willing to offer saving ordinances for the dead. We ought to be willing to offer temple relief to the living. That too is a kind of proxy work. Think about these words from King Benjamin, who taught us that when we are in the service

of our fellow beings, we are only in the service of our God. And of course, Jesus taught that inasmuch as we have done it unto one of the least of these, his brethren, we have done it unto him. opportunities for meaningful proxy work exists all around us again vicarious work is not plan B it is the plan yes with jose smith shall we not go on and so great because what a fantastic day we've heard from you professionally and personally and in your own theology i just i knew it was be great, Jordan. I knew it would be great, but it was, it was profound. The world of spirits feels closer today and more involved in my life, just thinking about all of this. It's like the Lord wants to help us make that separation disappear a little bit. And we have a connection

and we can make a difference. And they can make a difference for us, which is such a soul-expanding idea, you know? What did Joseph Smith say? They are not far from us. Yeah. Jordan, I want to ask you just one last question. I'm sure you've had to explain this to your students many, many times. There may be an idea out there that if you learn Latter-day Saint history, you'll lose your faith. I know quite a few faithful historians, incredible historians, and you're one of them. What would you say to those who have that a fear of diving into their? history. Yeah, I'm going to know too much. I'm going to lose my faith. This happened to this person and this person. Can you give us any closing thoughts in that direction? Sure. Davis Bitt was a church

historian. He wrote an article in which he talked about this topic and he said something along the lines of sort of the best historians. He knew the best historians of the Latter-day St. Faith were and our faithful members of the church. Rather, what he said actually was those who, know the most about this history, our faithful Latter-day Saints. Now, of course, that's not true of everyone. We have agency, as we've said today. Is it possible to learn something and then make a choice to not believe? Yeah, of course. But I think in part it's a question of expectations. What do we expect of the past? Sometimes we expect far too much historical figures. We can do a disservice to historical figures by being overly critical.

There's a potential problem there, but I think we can also do a great disservice to historical figures by holding them up on a pedestal, talking about them in their lives as if they were not perfect, but maybe pseudo-perfect. They were close to perfection. Pretty much, yeah. Yeah, that's not fair.

to them. If we think about historical figures that way, then we think about the restoration as a whole that way. And because it's God's divine work, we come to assume that the divine work must have occurred in a perfect way. But this gets stressed from the beginning of the end of the restoration that we lose sight of it. God references Joseph's imperfection in the revelations. At multiple times, including in his preface, in his preface, section one, and he tells the elders of the church, you've seen his imperfections. The whole restoration begins because a boy knows he's imperfect. The restoration proceeds because that boy grows into a man who knows he's imperfect. So he keeps asking for forgiveness. He asks for help, and he relies upon Jesus Christ. We can lose sight of that.

maybe as a culture we're sort of at fault for building up that kind of expectation as we learn things yeah we might come to see things is a bit different than we had expected but that's not a negative thing that's a maturing process one of the beautiful things about it is that i think as we glimpse how god really works with people how he really works with his prophet how he condescends to meet Joseph and to meet the saints where they were, well, that ought to give us a better sense of how God could condescend to meet us where we are. Some of us are not, but many of us are aware of our own imperfections. That can inhibit us from receiving revelation, but hopefully if we can find that Joseph, in his imperfection, found God and received revelation, that

becomes a message of hope. Yeah, we might have to tear down some of our, paradigms and frameworks or how we viewed how God works in the world but once we do we'll see that it actually aligns with our own experience much more forward so that the early saints and Joseph were not yeah did they live in very different times and places

yeah as a historian I'm going to say that they did there are also people who are striving imperfectly that's a message of hope often the problem is one of expectation rather than any given historical detail. Thank you. Jordan, I don't know if you're getting a lot of sleep with this new baby, but if this is

what it's like for you not getting sleep, then you need to not get sleep more. This has just been fantastic. I don't know even what to say other than I don't want it to end. It's that profound. If there's people out there listening who feel invisible not heard not making a difference we have this way to make noise in the spirit world glad tidings noise on the other side go into the temple and make some noise on the other side that is and thanks for the prophet joseph who propped this forward well with that we want to thank dr jordan walkins for being with us today

we want to thank our executive producer shannon sorenson our sponsors david and Verla Sorensen. In every episode, we remember our founder, he would have loved this. In fact, he probably does love this. Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We have more of the Doctor and Covenants to study on Follow Him. Thank you for joining us on today's episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese, or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today's show notes and transcript are on our website, follow him.com. That's follow him.com. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible

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